Did Aeris love Cloud or Zack?

[Bei Bei]

Many people have said that her initial attraction to Cloud comes from his extreme resemblance to Zack, a notion that I very much agree with. Throughout nearly the entire time that Aeris spends with Cloud, he is still bearing Zack's memories and old uniform as his own.

That is what I thought. I didn't get the impression that she liked Cloud for who he was. It was more like she was dating the Zack part that was in Cloud and for her it was probably like she had Zack back again.

I still think on some level though that she did love Cloud more towards the end when Cloud's personality started coming out, but there is really know way to actually know.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Whoa there dragon mage! Does Aeris love Cloud, yes! No arguements here!

Yay. You make me happy.

I disagree about how much SE cares about the love triangle, Cleriths or Clotis. I think they care about telling a story. The relationship between Aeris and Zack in AC was obvious, she was saying a last goodbye to Cloud and come on? Didn't she look happy?

I don't believe they intentionally care about the LT or meant to for that matter. However, inadvertantly, the LT became a very big deal for the fans. I agree with you, SE is more concerned with telling a story. See, if they were more concerned about hyping up the LTD they would make the characters act weird, in order to make lots of evidence for both sides. The characters we so dearly love would be twisted into tools to feed the raving fanboys. Since we haven't seen that happen, yes, they are more concerned with telling a story. (Also, because of this, people are finding romance between the LT chars in the most mundane things.
Cloud: Tifa, please pass the butter.
Tifa: Of course Cloud.
Fan: OMFG ROMANCE!!!)

The less intellegent? A bit arrogant don't you think? To Cleriths and Clotis?

I'm speaking about n00bs who go "OMG TIFA & CLOUD!!! CLOTI'S UNITE LOLZ". However, you're right, there are no such n00bs here. My bad, and I apologize. I'm simply used to seeing that thing so much on other forums, so I instinctively made an attempt at banishing these responses before they began. Again, my apologies to whomever I may have offended.

I agree with you that we will never understand who loves who, cool isn't it?!

Much happiness! You are now a friend. People like you and me are getting rare.

"idiotic" and "ignorant" in one paragraph...... pot/ketttle? I re-read that and I have no idea what you are talking about. Who exactly is claiming that as Aeris and Zack are dead that they must love each other? Nobody I've met in these forums thats for sure.

Actually, 'idiotic' means stupid and ignorant means... well, ignorant. I assure you, they are different.
Again, I've seen many a time where the argument "Well, they're both dead, so they must love each other." It is such an obtuse observation it hurts my brain. As such, I made an eloquent argument that it simply doesn't work that way. Again, I'm trying to clean up all the n00bs that would use that argument before they even reply and to silence those that have. If you read my post again, I provide info supporting both arguments. I am, of course, approaching this from a neutral stand point. Not easy to do.

No, of course in your hypothetical situation Tifa would not fall for Zack. The relationship between Aeris and him are way deeper than Tifa and him.

Exactly my point.

Your conclusion is flawed based on your own arguements.

Actually, quite the contrary. My conclusion is supported quite well by my arguments.

So, in conclusion, Zack and Aerith are friends, and nothing more. Aerith loves Cloud. Tifa loves Cloud. The love triangle remains unsolved. End of story.

See, in order to remain neutral, I cannot state that Zack and Aerith are anything more than friends. If I did so, than that would make my entire post null; I'd be contradicting myself, quite plainly. The whole point of the LT is who does Cloud love, not who does Aerith or Tifa love.

Sorry, that's just a weak take. The end of Maiden shows Aeris essentially giving Tifa and Cloud her blessing, regardless of how she feels about Zack. If we're going to quote Maiden to prove Aeris thinks Zack is just a friend, then we need to read the other parts too.

Well, I've never read MoTP. So I couldn't tell ya for the life of me. Keep in mind that any Clerith's reading it would NOT see it as her giving her blessing to Tifa and Cloud. They want to see it so it supports their point of view, not the other. People hate being proven wrong, no matter who you are. Again, I cannot say that Aerith and Zack were anything more than friends, for my goal here is to stay neutral and solve the issue at hand.

You need help stuffing that straw man? Zack and Aeris did not just suddenly fall in love, there's an entire game devoted to their relationship. It has nothing to do with being dead and standing next to each other for a few moments. Your analogy with Zack and Tifa is pretty obviously flawed.

And plotwise, their relationship didn't just run its course and fizzle out... it was cut tragically short as they were getting serious. And as we saw in Maiden, Zack is still interested in Aeris, and Aeris is shown coming to terms with Tifa being with Cloud. That's why there's legitimate speculation about Zack and Aeris growing close again in the afterlife.

Well, I've never heard that expression before. Cool.
I know they did not just suddenly romantically fall in love! *gasp* Lmao. No, I know they didn't. I was not aware of this game, and I knew that. Basically, the first paragraph quoted here exactly proves my point. Just because someone is dead doesn't mean that they *have* to love the other person who happens to be dead. If two people in a city block liked Jell-O does that mean they love each other? No. And yet, that's the reason many people are coming up with.

Indeed, I know their relationship did get cut short. And yes, it does seem logical that they would get together once they've been reunited. But Aerith's affection for Cloud is not to be simply dismissed. Heck, I'd love it if Aerith and Zack got back together! It'd be perfectly fine with me! But, point is, she still loves Cloud. I'll wait until it's confirmed that Aerith and Zack are together. (necrophiliacs, both of them) XD

So what are you doing that's any different? The only thing justification I hear for your opinion is that SE will never "solve" the LT... and you keep expounding that as though it were some universal, self-evident truth. Apparently I'm among the less intelligent and I need things spelled out for me... so please, hold my hand. Why does SE need to keep the LT "unsolved?" Better yet, what makes you think this mythic LT even exists to be solved? Aeris is dead. When is Cloud ever shown struggling to choose between the two?

Not that I'm all hardcore about who Cloud loves, I just think your post was short on fact and long on condescension.

XD I can see there is no point to hold your hand and again, I was merely addressing the n00bs. I was on automatic, like I've said before. Sorry.
What am I doing different? Well, for one, I'm not using the said argument of them both being dead to solve the LT. Actually, I'm doing the exact opposite. Simply because they're dead doesn't mean they have to love each other. Simply because 2 people live in the same country doesn't mean they have to love each other. (How many analogy's can I make?!) If you look at that post again, I'm actually not proving one pairing is right over the other. I'm proving that both will never be solved.

Why doesn't SE solve it once and for all? That's a good question. Because if SE confirms one couple or the other, it'll piss off about half the fan base. So, if SE makes the Clifa pairing canon the Cleriths of the world will be ticked off, and I can understand that. The same goes for the Clifa's if the Clerith's pairing was made canon. To prevent any loss of fans and thus buisness, SE keeps the LT ambiguous. It's stupid, I know; I think it is too. But that's the way it is.
Before you say anything about SE not taking the LT that seriously, consider this: The always companies bow to the customers. That's how it works, around the world and without fail. Now, if half your customers want one thing and the other half wants the opposite, how do you satisfy them both? You give them a mixture, not quite what either side wants but definitely not what each side doesn't want. (And I don't think SE is going to risk seeing if the fans really WOULD shun the company if they announced one pairing canon. Why risk it when you're still making good money?)

I could not agree more with this statement, Tifa and Zack never had any romantic interest with each other so his argument is very flawed.

I am a she, thank you. I know they had no romantic interest, I was merely using the comparison to prove my point.

This is a very strange thing to use as defence due to the fact she only knew the real cloud until when she was dead and Tifa helped Cloud find his true identity.

I'm talking about when she was alive, naturally. As you see during the date scene, she knows there's more to Cloud than what's on the surface, so to speak. Tifa knows this as well. Aerith began to know the real Cloud, little by little, but she never did really see very much, I aknowledge that. However, Cloud didn't completely fool himself into thinking he WAS Zack. If he had, he'd be calling himself Zack. So, basically, when Aerith knew him, he was a mixture of Zack's attitude and his own ways about him. This is what she saw and she sought out more of the 'Cloudiness' if you will. XD

When did she have the opportunity to bring Zack back to life? He died before she did. Furthermore, whether Cloud was dead or near death is questionable in Advent Children.

Assuming she always had the power to raise the dead when she entered the Lifestream, she could've raised her 'true love' when ever she wanted to. And I think you'll find that Cloud was indeed quite dead during that piece near the ending of AC. If the explosion didn't kill him, the bullet through the chest certainly did. Sudden Perforation Syndrome is known to be quite fatal.

Yes, well, as some so arrogantly say, "you can prove anything with facts.."

Well, since we're all just throwing our opinions out there and we're basing this mostly on conjecture, I see no reason why I should have to provide 'facts'. I would gladly do so if I knew what would happen if I did. Each snippet of the book or movie or game is subject to everyone's own opinion. Suddenly, the topic will cover what the actual meaning of that one line or that certain description actually means. I've seen it happen before. And in the end, nothing is proven and no one believes you any more than they had previously. So I find that providing 'facts' completely pointless.

So you place conjecture over the need of facts?

No, I don't. I've already explained it.

SE don't care about the LT like fans do. They do care about respecting their past material given any disrespect weakens the investment in the franchise. Yes, they are subtle in AC in regards to Cloud's move towards Tifa and Aeris move away from Cloud, because, yes, they must respect the ambiguity they created in the original game. That doesn't mean they refuse to evolve the characters. For if they did not, the ability to create a film or prequel would be out the window. Things change, and SE aren't afraid of that, there is just a question of how much of the change they need to ram down the audiences noses.

'Refuse to evolve' now it's interesting you should say that. I don't belive they are refusing to evolve the chars, they just don't want to make that one, realitively tiny, part of the chars and the story a problem for everything else.

Now AC was made as a gesture to fans (and make money), all the fans of FF7, which as SE know, includes fans of "Cleris" and "Cloti", so the elements are subtle to make it an enjoyable experience for both, but the answers are clear, just understated. Cloud does move in with Tifa after romantically proposing they stay together from that moment on, Aeris clearly is shown to have some connection to Zack, even though beyond Maiden, it's not dwelt on and to top it, Nomura goes and says outright that Tifa and Cloud are together (Reunion Files) ("koibito", the term he uses in Japanese means romantic lovers, despite the mistranslation in the English text - check any dictionary/translator)

Ah, I was waiting for you to say it! I am familiar with the term 'koibito' and I understand that there's quite a clash over what it means. I understand that it may have more than one meaning. So, unless Nomura is really going to say, "Of course I mean this meaning with that word, not this meaning" we won't know what it REALLY means and I tend to ignore all arguments made using this word. Not that it's anything against you; it's just that I consider 'koibito' to be a piece of possible evidence that's dynamite to either party. As such, since we cannot be sure what was truly meant by the word, I would like to avoid further use of it as much as possible. Only because it's great evidence that isn't fully and without-a-doubt understood.

I certainly agree with those who say that Aeris probably loves Zack. I'd say that seems to be the movement the franchise is taking. Whether one accepts Maiden's dubious credentials as truth or not doesn't really change this, for even there there is questionable doubt as to how much her feelings for Cloud are influenced by Zack.

Oh, don't get me wrong! I think Aeris loves Zack too. For she was attracted to the similarities of Zack she initially saw in Cloud. There's no doubt she loves Zack. But is it stronger than her love for Cloud? That's the question.
Likewise, Cloud loved Tifa from the beginning. Is that love still there or has it turned to Aerith?

Questions, questions, everywhere and not an answer for respite.

You'll only fail to know if you don't read Case of Tifa. I say that as someone who doesn't give a fig about Cloti or Cleris. I can see what a text says without being bunched into some extreme love shippers thanks.

Bless you! You're one of the few people that can look at what's happening and not immiediately connect it with some romantic idea. There should be more people like you!
I have read the Case of Tifa. And I must state, that is summed things up quite nicely. But, since I'm a Clifa, of course I would see it that way. Whereas any Clerith would say that it just makes Cloud's feelings for Tifa all the more ambiguous. I certainly don't agree. It's quite obvious to me that Cloud loves Tifa.
But, once more, I'm posting here from a completely neutral stand point. So I must neither confirm nor deny that either couple is canon. What I'm here to do is to simply answer the question and orgainize the (now) mess.

Not sure on that, given we never see Cloud's honest feelings for Aeris when he isn't being the cipher for the RPGers whims on Disk One. We know he cares a great deal, but we don't know how that exists within his love for Tifa (as shown in the latter part of FF7, Case of Tifa, Last Order etc). It is plausible it could mirror, given his pain for Aeris' death in AC isn't love, but guilt, so yes, roles COULD reverse, but given he's not himself when he spends his time with Aeris, how she'd fit into the REAL CLoud's existence is difficult to ascertain.

Oh yes, no doubt Cloud shows feelings for both Aerith and Tifa. (But geez, will he ever pick one??) And I agree, now that his head isn't royally messed up, it would be stretching to make any firm conclusion. But, judging from all behavior prior, concioussly done by SE, the situations would probably remain the same.

Nomura, SE and anyone who reads Case of Tifa would probably disagree with that final point. And unless you have inside info on CC, the first point maybe up for debate with the same group as well.

Again, I must maintain nuetrality, for my purpose being here. However, it all depends on your personal opinion. A Clifa and a Clerith could look at one certain situation and come up with 2 completely different conclusions from it. That's the way it is. So, even if SE gave hints as large as a blue whale towards one pairing, the fans will continue to see what they want and nothing more.

In conclusion, I need only sum up a few things. Aerith is attracted to Cloud because of his resemblance to Zack. This is seen by how she comments on how much he reminds her of Zack. Her further attraction to Cloud would indicate that she must've had similar feelings for Zack.

Either way you look at it, two people will see two different things when observing the same thing. It all depends on your personal opinion. I would never dream that a Clerith would agree with me that Cloud loves Tifa and I couldn't possibly see myself saying that Cloud loves Aerith and not love Tifa at all. Fan preferences taint everything I observe, and so I must be careful to remove that taint as much as possible by putting myself in a neutral positon.

Also, Cloud will never be seen showing out-and-out affection to one girl or the other. For various reasons I've already explained, SE won't let that happen. So, the emotional dynamics between Cloud and Tifa or Cloud and Aerith should be ignored; since you will only find a frustrating cycle of hints pointing towards each side. That part of the LT should be looked away from and the focus should point more on the topic of this thread: Zack and Aerith. That's where everyone should be looking. NOT Cloud and Aerith. Hopefully, this will get some headway to answering the conclusion

As for the answer, whatever I or anyone else comes up with will not sit well with some. Why? Again, preferences. A fan sees what they want. And that is the end of my very long post.

~*The Dragon Hath Spoken*~

 

[eisprinz]

You cannot pick and choose what is canon based on personal conjecture. I hate it in Fraiser when Niles goes with Daphne, which IMO was to cater for fan whims, but it doesn't make the seasons post that point non-canon. I just have to accept it.

Well, obviously Compilation is officially canon whether I want to accept it or not. What I meant is that I don't consider much of the Compilation materials to be borne from the same creative forces and ideas that fueled the original game - they seemed to me like a clever omake more than true continuation.

I don't see SE capitulating to fan demands. They were respectful of how the moved the characters on, moving Tifa in with Cloud was logical as both expressed mutual feelings for each other in disk two of FF7. Keeping Aeris a massive part of the story and the focus of guilt and affection for Cloud was respectful and fair to the characters. Given that AC has moved Cloud and Tifa together and is looking at evolving the Aeris/Zack, I'd say that SE isn't showing any real interest in fan demands, just exploring logical continuations of what FF7 set up.

The points that you mentioned here are some of the ones I'd consider NOT to be fan service. What I refer to when I speak of AC being gratuitous to fans is:

a) Yazoo, Kadaj, Loz - because they have an irrational origin (the game seems to try to make it clear that Sephiroth and only Sephiroth was properly engineered and capable), because their only point in the game is to cause eye-candy fight scenes, and to cause the next bit of fan service

b) Sephiroth - okay, so Sephiroth has the ability to re-manifest himself by inhabiting someone with injected Jenova cells and a more corporeal part of Jenova (perhaps only the head will work). Fine. I'll take it. But if Square is only going to revive the enemy who is the most destructive force in the FFVII universe, I'd think that he'd last longer than a five-minute cameo. Smacks of fan service.

c) Rufus, Tseng - they survived for the purpose of being rendered into CG for Advent Children. Rufus is given Jenova's head, to make him seem important to the plot, whereas it could have just as easily been a Turk safeguarding it. Tseng has no value, other than his presence making some fans happy. These characters are the bits of fan service, that I think are the worst in Advent Children because there's no way to fanwank their importance.

Fan service isn't really that bad, though. My main problem with Advent Children is that it focused on the fan service (Sephiroth and the Three Stooges). I thought Geostigma infection was a much more original concept and also better fit with the theme and tone of the original game, yet it remained a symbolic background element.

 

[ChocoBongo]

Assuming she always had the power to raise the dead when she entered the Lifestream, she could've raised her 'true love' when ever she wanted to.

I think we're running madly into conjecture here. I've seen no evidence to support the supposition she could heal a man dead for a long period of time.

And I think you'll find that Cloud was indeed quite dead during that piece near the ending of AC. If the explosion didn't kill him, the bullet through the chest certainly did. Sudden Perforation Syndrome is known to be quite fatal.

To a normal man, not quite sure the strength of a man who can thrust higher than a city and land with no broken bones. I don't think its clear how dead he is. I mean, we have people whose heart stop and are dead, but are recoverable. I think even if we presume he was dead as a doornail with no possibility of revival beyond Aeris' powers of Earthdom, that's a far cry to resurrecting a man who has been dead for some two years (given we don't know if Aeris had the power she had accumulated in AC from when she died, in fact, Maiden doesn't imply her understanding of her afterlife existence was immediate.

Well, since we're all just throwing our opinions out there and we're basing this mostly on conjecture, I see no reason why I should have to provide 'facts'. I would gladly do so if I knew what would happen if I did. Each snippet of the book or movie or game is subject to everyone's own opinion. Suddenly, the topic will cover what the actual meaning of that one line or that certain description actually means. I've seen it happen before. And in the end, nothing is proven and no one believes you any more than they had previously. So I find that providing 'facts' completely pointless.

Then we might as well stop every debate on the content of every work of art. The writer had intent. For one to write, one must understand the situations and characters, to understand the characters, one must understand their motivations. So the writer and director know the intent, ergo its there to be understood. Scenes nearly all have intent. Very few are truly ambiguous and I don't see any of those in the Compilation. Anything that was ambiguous in FF7 is cleared up in AC.

'Refuse to evolve'

now it's interesting you should say that. I don't belive they are refusing to evolve the chars, they just don't want to make that one, realitively tiny, part of the chars and the story a problem for everything else.

I disagree. There is clear evolution to the characters and their situations. All of it in Advent Children is fairly subtle, as the film is pretty much a bit of gratuity for the game fans; its meant to be an extension of the events we remember, which is why its such a bad film for newbies, as it doesn't really exist on its own merit. The characters evolve, but the story doesn't go out to put any of the changes heavily in the foreground when the film isn't trying to be a new chapter.

Ah, I was waiting for you to say it! I am familiar with the term 'koibito' and I understand that there's quite a clash over what it means. I understand that it may have more than one meaning. So, unless Nomura is really going to say, "Of course I mean this meaning with that word, not this meaning" we won't know what it REALLY means and I tend to ignore all arguments made using this word. Not that it's anything against you; it's just that I consider 'koibito' to be a piece of possible evidence that's dynamite to either party. As such, since we cannot be sure what was truly meant by the word, I would like to avoid further use of it as much as possible. Only because it's great evidence that isn't fully and without-a-doubt understood.

Erm, you can. Go look it up. There only people I've seen in my trawl around the internet to counter its meaning are those against its meaning, and they have - to my experience - offered no examples of the word not meaning "romantic lovers". I've had Japanese speakers and natives confirm it, I've seen it in enough translators and dictionaries to get the gist. You can't ignore it because a vocal minority dispute it - particularly when the dispute is empty handed in some attempts to dispell the truth by applying logic based in the English langauage on a foreign one, or simply making up answers without sources.

Koibito means romantic lover in all contexts I've read about. It's only in this one case have I ever seen dispute over this word in an anime translation.

Oh, don't get me wrong! I think Aeris loves Zack too. For she was attracted to the similarities of Zack she initially saw in Cloud. There's no doubt she loves Zack. But is it stronger than her love for Cloud? That's the question.
Likewise, Cloud loved Tifa from the beginning. Is that love still there or has it turned to Aerith?

The love is still there according to Case of Tifa and Nomura. Clearly so. No dispute once we pass the FF7 game. Originally, when the Highwind sequence in FF7 was up for dispute, yes, there was ambiguity, but not now.

As for comparatives between Cloud and Zack with Aeris, I've not seen proof of any degree of love for Aeris barring her own subjective and confused (or at best, badly written) thoughts in Maiden. Certainly no true comparatives to Zack, which by the looks of CC, may add more flames to the debate!

Bless you! You're one of the few people that can look at what's happening and not immiediately connect it with some romantic idea. There should be more people like you!

I never knew reading a short story could gain such praise! I've never understood how people could miss it. Personally I found it icky, but appreciate that if you want to drop their relationship to an all time low, you build it up to an all time high to do so. That's the intent so I have to get past the icky dialog and accept the point of the scenes. Certainly nothing that anyone who's watched a few films would understand; the construction of the AC tale is hardly original.

But, once more, I'm posting here from a completely neutral stand point. So I must neither confirm nor deny that either couple is canon. What I'm here to do is to simply answer the question and orgainize the (now) mess.

I think you can be neutral and confirm what's there. I think if you try and sit on the fence merely to be neutral you end up not being neutral but biased in an attempt to find middle ground! To me, a neutral is someone who reads the texts/game/film for what it is, not what they want to be. If they see Cloud and Aeris/Tifa/Yuffie/Barret with no interest in the pairing, then no matter how erroneous they might be, they are neutral. I would say CloudxTifa is the answer with no interest either way and I don't believe that makes me a "Cloti"!

Oh yes, no doubt Cloud shows feelings for both Aerith and Tifa. (But geez, will he ever pick one??) And I agree, now that his head isn't royally messed up, it would be stretching to make any firm conclusion. But, judging from all behavior prior, concioussly done by SE, the situations would probably remain the same.

It's a tough one, given we know Cloud was interested in Tifa, unmessed headed, before and after his breakdown. We don't know with Aeris on either case, so it makes it hard to offer conject upon. That said, Cloud clearly does care, respect and admire Aeris. With such qualities, who knows what could have happened in a different situation.

Also, Cloud will never be seen showing out-and-out affection to one girl or the other. For various reasons I've already explained, SE won't let that happen.So, the emotional dynamics between Cloud and Tifa or Cloud and Aerith should be ignored; since you will only find a frustrating cycle of hints pointing towards each side. That part of the LT should be looked away from and the focus should point more on the topic of this thread: Zack and Aerith. That's where everyone should be looking. NOT Cloud and Aerith. Hopefully, this will get some headway to answering the conclusion

I totally disagree. I think without making a hoo har over a fan debate that has no real relevance to AC, SE made specific and open changes to the dynamic in favour of Cloud and Tifa. If you can see it in Case of Tifa, you should see the entire consistency in that logic from that point on. The koibito is merely confirmation for those either too invested in their own shipping, or simply haven't read Case of Tifa. But the information is out there. If SE wanted to keep the status quo as you suggest, they would not have released Case of Tifa, Nomura would not have commented so specifically, Case of Barrett would have no reference to Cloud and Tifa as partners, nor would Last Order reaffirm this connection so specifically - and intentionally retconned (given the romantic scene wasn't part of the original game scene). They are happy for audiences to know, and getting back on topic, it seems Crisis Core will be another example of SE doing what they feel is best, and not showing any massive interest in what a select section of shippers want.

 

[Daenerys]

Im laying down a rule now.

this thread is about who AERITH loved. not Cloud. Therefore any arguments resembling an LTD post will be deleted.

I fail to see Tifa in the title of this thread, which i previously stated.

so from now on, keep ALL romantic arguments concerning tifa to the Cloud Pairing thread.

Thank You

 

[AkinGloomyOdin]

Hmm..I've not read any of the previous posts to this thread, so I will answer the question whether someone has the same answer or not...

I believe that Aeris/Aerith loved Zack, or neither. She only appears to love Cloud becuase she has a certain interest in the love thing goin on with Tifa and Cloud. That is what I understood anyway...On the other hand, Cloud may have loved her, and either she knew it and didn't let up that she knew, or she has oblivious to it.

 

[ChocoBongo]

Im laying down a rule now.

this thread is about who AERITH loved. not Cloud. Therefore any arguments resembling an LTD post will be deleted.

I fail to see Tifa in the title of this thread, which i previously stated.

so from now on, keep ALL romantic arguments concerning tifa to the Cloud Pairing thread.

Thank You

Fair enough, though the topic in itself will naturally bring up the question of Aeris' relationship to Cloud, and that itself is a narrative question which inevitably - to some extent - bring in the question of defining his relationships and affections. Can Aeris love a man who - and for the sake of argument - might love someone else?

Tifa, Zack, Cloud and Aeris all have a very tight dynamic and storyline, so there will be some cross over in the debate given their relationships define each others roles.

Furthermore, there is a question of narrative intent; would SE be putting Aeris with two heroes? Would they be looking to "share" her love? Would that weaken the dynamic/pairing possibilities for both/either?

I'm not debating your need to remind people to stay on topic, it is one which probably does need nudging (though if you read my last long post, I was myself wary of the off topic nature and trying to pull it back on (as was the poster I was replying to).

As a poster, I hope that as long as members remain aware that the topic must remain relevant, that the staff can offer a little slack to a topic which does inevitably share issues with characters which are trapped in the LTD. The questions of the LTD do to some degree affect these characters, so it is a natural sideline and to try and separate out such issues with a mandatory rule, makes discussing the topic intelligently a little hard.

It's a shame the LTD has caused so much antagonism in the past, because a great of the topics it suffocates does touch many other debates, and really people should be able to debate the issues intelligently with out spanking - well, in a perfect world anyway.

 

[Franki-Chan]

Im laying down a rule now.

this thread is about who AERITH loved. not Cloud. Therefore any arguments resembling an LTD post will be deleted.

I fail to see Tifa in the title of this thread, which i previously stated.

so from now on, keep ALL romantic arguments concerning tifa to the Cloud Pairing thread.

Thank You

But you can not fail to mention who Aerith loved more without bringing up Cloud's feelings on the matter which will refer back to Tifa, its open debate. Feels like your constricting it .

 

[Daenerys]

But you can not fail to mention who Aerith loved more without bringing up Cloud's feelings on the matter which will refer back to Tifa, its open debate. Feels like your constricting it .

You can debate fine well who Aerith loves without bringing clouds feelings into it, this thread is not about whether Aeriths feelings for the one she loves is Reciprocated. the other thread is debating that, so in the end if i don't restrict it we'll end up with two identical threads.

Its either that, or ill merge the two threads together...somehow.

 

[infinite-chaos]

The problem I run into is that people have already formed too solid of opinions to take in anything new SE is revealing to us. Not only that, but some like to insert in too many of their own opinions, for example: "people never forget their first love, therefore, Aerith loves Zack."

IMO, there's really nothing to debate about when it comes to who Aerith loves. True that she and Zack were an item at one point in time, but we were told it wasn't serious. Until CC reveals otherwise, I think it's pretty safe to go with what has already been told to us. If people feel that the game wasn't obvious enough about this, then there is MoTP.

The reason why Aerith's thoughts of Cloud woke Zack up in the lifestream is because the two guys do share similarities (no one's trying to hide that fact), but Aerith also knows and says herself that they are different. MoTP clearly states that Aerith loves Cloud more than her first love[Zack]. It goes as far to say that she even prefers Cloud's awkwardness. Further more, MoTP tells us that while Cloud is sometimes mysterious to her, I quote, she loves him regardless. I don't think it really matters then whether she found out about his true past or not.

It should be noted too that upon meeting Zack, Aerith didn't bahave like Zack was a long-lost lover who she had been pining over. She told him that someone who knew as many girls such as himself could never be a lover, and when Zack invited her to hang with him, she said that she would only as for his company if she ever gets too lonely. Zack is slightly disappointed with her reply, not to mention that she says all this after reflecting on her pain from having been separated from Cloud. Concerning Aerith's feelings, well, this is about as straightforward and blunt as can be. I don't see much room for opinions or interpretations.

Aerith lovED Zack at one point in time, but now lovES Cloud.

she only knew the real cloud until when she was dead and Tifa helped Cloud find his true identity.

Well, considering that the whole event where Cloud found out about his past took place in the lifestream (the place where Aerith's spirit is residing), I'm with the opinion that at the time, she most likely did learn about his true past along with him. Not only that, but it was revealed that it was Aerith's voice who guided Tifa to Cloud, otherwise, Tifa might not have found Cloud in the lifestream. Not sure at all why Tifa is the only one who ever gets credit here.

As for people who say Aerith doesn't love Cloud and "gives" him to Tifa, well, it's not necessarily true. Depends on how you see the Cloud/Tifa relationship really. While Tifa loves Cloud, their relationship is like that of family (extremely close friends), just as Tifa and Barret or Cloud and Barret are family. Just because Aerith told Tifa to take good care of Cloud doesn't mean she's giving them her blessing and wants them to go make babies together. Besides, it's up to Cloud to decide if anyone should take care of him or not, not either of the two ladies. I recall that even after all that, his desire was still to meet Aerith.

The love is still there according to Case of Tifa and Nomura. Clearly so. No dispute once we pass the FF7 game.

Tifa: "do you love me, Cloud?"
Cloud: *dubious*

It was only clear from one side as it has always been.

 

[Ryushikaze]

First thing's first, Hi, Hades Daughter, was it?

The problem I run into is that people have already formed too solid of opinions to take in anything new SE is revealing to us. Not only that, but some like to insert in too many of their own opinions, for example: "people never forget their first love, therefore, Aerith loves Zack."

When you say that, remember that it can also apply to you.
And BTW, what SE is showing us is that Z/A was more than Aerith was initially letting on.

IMO, there's really nothing to debate about when it comes to who Aerith loves. True that she and Zack were an item at one point in time, but we were told it wasn't serious. Until CC reveals otherwise, I think it's pretty safe to go with what has already been told to us. If people feel that the game wasn't obvious enough about this, then there is MoTP.

The reason why Aerith's thoughts of Cloud woke Zack up in the lifestream is because the two guys do share similarities (no one's trying to hide that fact), but Aerith also knows and says herself that they are different. MoTP clearly states that Aerith loves Cloud more than her first love[Zack].

So she says. But when it turns out that most everything that made Cloud "unique" to her turns out to be things Cloud emulated from Zack, it makes her earlier statement of loving Cloud more than Zack sound not entirely genuine, since the Cloud that she was so infatuated with was not the genuine article, and she was focused on the parts of the faux Cloud that were expressedly Zack.

It goes as far to say that she even prefers Cloud's awkwardness.

Actually, she doesn't. She simply says Zack is not simplistic and akward as Cloud is while flirting with the former.

Further more, MoTP tells us that while Cloud is sometimes mysterious to her, I quote, she loves him regardless. I don't think it really matters then whether she found out about his true past or not.

But she loved him without knowing who he was. She loved what she thought was Cloud, but then Cloud turned out to be a completely different person without many of the traits she was gushing about, it makes her claims of loving Cloud more than Zack questionable.

It should be noted too that upon meeting Zack, Aerith didn't bahave like Zack was a long-lost lover who she had been pining over. She told him that someone who knew as many girls such as himself could never be a lover, and when Zack invited her to hang with him, she said that she would only as for his company if she ever gets too lonely. Zack is slightly disappointed with her reply, not to mention that she says all this after reflecting on her pain from having been separated from Cloud. Concerning Aerith's feelings, well, this is about as straightforward and blunt as can be. I don't see much room for opinions or interpretations.

Given that Zack wasn't even phased by this, it would seem it's not as scathing as you suggest it to be. They were flirting, for freak's sake.

Aerith lovED Zack at one point in time, but now lovES Cloud.

Who she never even met while alive.

Well, considering that the whole event where Cloud found out about his past took place in the lifestream (the place where Aerith's spirit is residing), I'm with the opinion that at the time, she most likely did learn about his true past along with him. Not only that, but it was revealed that it was Aerith's voice who guided Tifa to Cloud, otherwise, Tifa might not have found Cloud in the lifestream. Not sure at all why Tifa is the only one who ever gets credit here.

Because until recently, Aerith's involvement was not mentioned, and she had no involvement in the restoration of Cloud's self.

As for people who say Aerith doesn't love Cloud and "gives" him to Tifa, well, it's not necessarily true. Depends on how you see the Cloud/Tifa relationship really. While Tifa loves Cloud, their relationship is like that of family (extremely close friends), just as Tifa and Barret or Cloud and Barret are family. Just because Aerith told Tifa to take good care of Cloud doesn't mean she's giving them her blessing and wants them to go make babies together.

"She decided she would entrust everything to Tifa's love for Cloud" while smiling like an affectionate mother isn't giving her blessing?
And while not the subject of this thread, the C/T dynamic is not just that of 'family', unless you mean like that of a father and a mother.

Besides, it's up to Cloud to decide if anyone should take care of him or not, not either of the two ladies. I recall that even after all that, his desire was still to meet Aerith.

Could I ask you to cite that,for me? Because if it is what I think it is, your interpretation of that scene does not fit the overall scene, relies on an overly specific interpretation of an interpolation into the english text, and in no way fits Cloud's words or deeds preceeding or following the incident.

Tifa: "do you love me, Cloud?"
Cloud: *dubious*

It was only clear from one side as it has always been.

Please don't misquote things or remove them from the context. For one, the official translation of that scene is that Cloud is confused by the question, and he has good reason to be so. He just woke up, and did not hear the totality of the question, probably only hearing the 'sukida' portion of the question
Or, if you insist on the usage of dubious, he cannot believe that the question was even asked in the first place.

 

[infinite-chaos]

First thing's first, Hi, Hades Daughter, was it?

Didn't realize you hung out with us at the Pink forums too, Ryushikaze.

And BTW, what SE is showing us is that Z/A was more than Aerith was initially letting on.

Is that what you got out of CC after playing it?
Or perhaps you're referring to MoTP where the narrator is saying that the Zeris relationship had been a light taste of first love and that Zack is now a friend to Aerith?

But when it turns out that most everything that made Cloud "unique" to her turns out to be things Cloud emulated from Zack, it makes her earlier statement of loving Cloud more than Zack sound not entirely genuine, since the Cloud that she was so infatuated with was not the genuine article, and she was focused on the parts of the faux Cloud that were expressedly Zack.

"At first, she thought he somehow had some similarities to her first love. Even so, his looks, voice and personality weren't similar and he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love. Cloud was her hero and he couldn￾ft get away from danger. She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him. She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could. She really wanted to." - MoTP

Where does it say that everything she liked about Cloud had been emulated from Zack?

But she loved him without knowing who he was.

Doesn't matter to her. She loves him regardless.
Actually, rereading MoTP again...I just realized that with Zack's help, she figures out who the real Cloud is:

"The two of them quickly exchanged what they knew. And then Aerith knew. She knew that Cloud wasn't just a cloned doll made for Sephiroth. She also knew why she saw Zacks in him now."

Where does it say that she changed her mind about loving Cloud after figuring out about his past? In a playful way or not, she still rejects Zack.

Actually, she doesn't. She simply says Zack is not simplistic and akward as Cloud is while flirting with the former.

"And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud." - MoTP

It's implied that she prefers Cloud's awkwardness. Again, even if it's in a playful way, she still rejects Zack.

Given that Zack wasn't even phased by this, it would seem it's not as scathing as you suggest it to be. They were flirting, for freak's sake.

"Zacks put on sad face as if he was sulking but then smiled carefree. It was the unchanged smile that Aerith knew from when they were young. When she was seventeen, it was what attracted her to him." -MoTP

Well, Zack is the cheerful type much like Aerith herself. I don't think he would sulk over this, especially if their relationship had never been real serious to start with. I've yet to see any evidence saying that their relationship had been deep and true.

"At first, Aerith couldn't remember whose voice it was because it was so sudden. Panicking, she turned round and saw a nostalgic face she hadn't seen for five years. He was her light taste of first love.He was also now a very dear friend who she hadn't seen ever since she heard nothing from him." - MoTP

Again, the writer is saying here that their relationship had been a light taste of first love. Even if you don't believe Aerith, you'd still have to believe the writer/narrator. Also, the narrator is clearly saying here that Zack is now a friend. ^^

Who she never even met while alive.

While that may matter to Clotis, again, it doesn't matter to Aerith:

"he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love."

and she had no involvement in the restoration of Cloud's self.

If you don't ignore MoTP, she does:
"Aerith risked everything she had in this golden opportunity.

She desperately talked to Tifa who was about to get intoxicated by the highly concentrated Mako. Guiding her conscious, Tifa took her into Cloud's closed heart." - MoTP

It's interesting that while Tifa may be the one to who carries the memories, doesn't look to me like Cloud's heart had been opened to her. It was Aerith who had to enter his heart. She also saved Tifa's life which enabled Tifa to give Cloud his memories. Indeed, Aerith played quite a big part in restoring Cloud. ^^

"She decided she would entrust everything to Tifa's love for Cloud" while smiling like an affectionate mother isn't giving her blessing?

Context. If you mean giving her blessing to Tifa in the sense that Aerith was entrusting her to restore Cloud's memories back to him and to help look after him in the living world, sure. If you're referring to the idea of making babies...MoTP says no such thing.

And while not the subject of this thread, the C/T dynamic is not just that of 'family', unless you mean like that of a father and a mother.

Didn't see the whole "father" and "mother" ordeal, but I was actually referring to CoT's concept of family: close friends coming together in time of need.

Tifa: "do you love me, Cloud?"
Cloud: *dubious*

It was only clear from one side as it has always been.

Please don't misquote things or remove them from the context. For one, the official translation of that scene is that Cloud is confused by the question, and he has good reason to be so. He just woke up, and did not hear the totality of the question, probably only hearing the 'sukida' portion of the question
Or, if you insist on the usage of dubious, he cannot believe that the question was even asked in the first place.

You're saying the same thing I am. Cloud's feeling wasn't clear here. Am I right or am I right?

 

[einlanzer]

Why doesn't SE solve it once and for all? That's a good question. Because if SE confirms one couple or the other, it'll piss off about half the fan base. So, if SE makes the Clifa pairing canon the Cleriths of the world will be ticked off, and I can understand that. The same goes for the Clifa's if the Clerith's pairing was made canon. To prevent any loss of fans and thus buisness, SE keeps the LT ambiguous. It's stupid, I know; I think it is too. But that's the way it is.

I'm sorry, I've seen this far too many times in these threads, and it's simply not true. I'm shooting it down right here.

I don't know if you could really say that FFVII had any unanswered questions to speak of," claims Nomura, taking what some of his fans [or detractors] might characterize as a slightly controversial stand. "We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging.

"The answers are there." There you have it. What makes this discussion so ambiguous isn't the story, it's that people twist plot devices - ones that we take for granted in every story - and make complicated what was given straightforwardly.

On topic: I think Aerith pretty clearly loves Cloud. But it's a selfless love; I don't think she's waiting for him, or trying to be a couple with him.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Didn't realize you hung out with us at the Pink forums too, Ryushikaze.

I don't. A little birdy showed me something that hades daughter wrote, and writing style can often be as useful in ID as a fingerprint, especially when the writer tends towards certain phrasings.

Is that what you got out of CC after playing it?
Or perhaps you're referring to MoTP where the narrator is saying that the Zeris relationship had been a light taste of first love and that Zack is now a friend to Aerith?

Actually, I'm referring to the point when Aerith focused on the Zacklike aspects of Faux Cloud while convincing herself that they were different, how their relationship is looking to be a long term thing according to what we know of CC, how her interactions with Cloud are deliberate echoes of her relationship with Zack, etc.
The fact that Cloud considered her important enough to want to take home to meet the folks half a world away says that Zack, at the least, thought their relationship was ready for the next step.
Certainly, at the least it was far more serious than the relationship she had with Cloud, in that it was one at all.

"At first, she thought he somehow had some similarities to her first love. Even so, his looks, voice and personality weren't similar and he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love. Cloud was her hero and he couldn￾ft get away from danger. She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him. She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could. She really wanted to." - MoTP

Where does it say that everything she liked about Cloud had been emulated from Zack?

Later in the narrative where the things that made the boy 'unique' to Aerith, that made up the 'real' him to her perception were emulated traits from Zack. That and the fact that her description of Cloud bears more resemblance to the cool, collected, Zack than it does to the genuine, and dorky, Cloud.
BTW, please, do not strawman even by omission. I did not say everything, I said most everything. As in the majority of things.

Doesn't matter to her. She loves him regardless.
Actually, rereading MoTP again...I just realized that with Zack's help, she figures out who the real Cloud is:

"The two of them quickly exchanged what they knew. And then Aerith knew. She knew that Cloud wasn't just a cloned doll made for Sephiroth. She also knew why she saw Zacks in him now."

Shouldn't that technically read 'Zack tells her about the real Cloud', since that's what he does? He tells her about the real Cloud, and she tells him about what's going on right now.

Where does it say that she changed her mind about loving Cloud after figuring out about his past?[/quote]

She doesn't have to change her mind for her earlier declarations of loving Cloud hollow when she describes him in terms of certain characteristics which do not describe the real him well at all and which were emulated from Zack.

In a playful way or not, she still rejects Zack.

"And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud." - MoTP

It's implied that she prefers Cloud's awkwardness. Again, even if it's in a playful way, she still rejects Zack.[/quote]

Forgive me, but you'll have to point out the rejection. I see a bandying about and a pointing out of a flaw, not a rejection. I mean, there's not even a set of ellipses in there.

"Zacks put on sad face as if he was sulking but then smiled carefree. It was the unchanged smile that Aerith knew from when they were young. When she was seventeen, it was what attracted her to him." -MoTP

Well, Zack is the cheerful type much like Aerith herself. I don't think he would sulk over this, especially if their relationship had never been real serious to start with. I've yet to see any evidence saying that their relationship had been deep and true.

Zack thought she was important enough to write home about and wanted his parents to meet her. Sounds serious to me.

-snip quote of MOTP C5-

Again, the writer is saying here that their relationship had been a light taste of first love. Even if you don't believe Aerith, you'd still have to believe the writer/narrator. Also, the narrator is clearly saying here that Zack is now a friend. ^^

The aspects of whom she has been focusing on in the cipher of a man adopting his persona who she is now gaga over. She may have cooled a little for Zack, but it is the traits that make up Zack that Aerith is gaga over. It makes perfect sense for the flame to rekindle, since it technically did when she fell for Zack's persona as emulated in Cloud.
Though if Zack was just a light taste of first love, Cloud was nothing more than a sniff.

While that may matter to Clotis, again, it doesn't matter to Aerith:

"he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love."

I'm not denying that Aerith loved Faux Cloud more than Zack. But Faux Cloud is not Cloud himself, and was to Aerith's perception at the very least, comprised of things taken from Zack proper. It is the Zacklike things that draw Aerith to Faux Cloud, and these are the same traits of Zack's which she focuses on.

If you don't ignore MoTP, she does:
"Aerith risked everything she had in this golden opportunity.

She desperately talked to Tifa who was about to get intoxicated by the highly concentrated Mako. Guiding her conscious, Tifa took her into Cloud's closed heart." - MoTP

Yes, she keeps Tifa from getting Mako poisoning and guides her towards Cloud. She then sits back and watches as Tifa is the one to restore Cloud's true self. I'm not saying Aerith was uninvolved period, I'm saying she was uninvolved in restoring Cloud's mind, since she was.

Or have you forgotten "In truth, Aerith really wanted to do it herself. But she couldn't carry out the task."

It's interesting that while Tifa may be the one to who carries the memories, doesn't look to me like Cloud's heart had been opened to her. It was Aerith who had to enter his heart.

Except Aerith couldn't. She was unable to even contact him, despite trying her damnedest to earlier, in the start of C5 Cloud's heart was closed to Aerith. Not to Tifa, who is granted immediate access and allowed to run free inside, to say nothing of Cloud and Tifa's hearts called out and heard each other when they were in the lifestream.

She also saved Tifa's life which enabled Tifa to give Cloud his memories. Indeed, Aerith played quite a big part in restoring Cloud. ^^

No... she played her part in ferrying Tifa to Cloud. She was uninvolved in the actual process of restoring Cloud's mind. As she says, She couldn't do it herself.

Context. If you mean giving her blessing to Tifa in the sense that Aerith was entrusting her to restore Cloud's memories back to him and to help look after him in the living world, sure. If you're referring to the idea of making babies...MoTP says no such thing.

Except that that she said this after Cloud's memories had been restored, and she gazed on them both, as a couple. She says "I'm a little jealous of you but, do take care of Cloud and the upper world." after Cloud's mind is restored. And if you're going to try and call me on MOTP saying 'no such thing' (especially when I've not even mentioned such a thing), then you should make doubly sure that you are not inventing anything as well. Nothing like hypocrisy to make a point moot. Inventing a rejection, for example. You should avoid that.

Didn't see the whole "father" and "mother" ordeal, but I was actually referring to CoT's concept of family: close friends coming together in time of need.

Which is relevant to how Cloud views family because? And negates the fact that Tifa sees Cloud as a young father how?

You're saying the same thing I am. Cloud's feeling wasn't clear here. Am I right or am I right?

You are incorrect. Cloud feeling there is obvious. He is confused. Why is he confused? Well, he did just wake up. It tends to be disorienting when one awakens halfway through a question.

 

[infinite-chaos]

I don't. A little birdy showed me something that hades daughter wrote, and writing style can often be as useful in ID as a fingerprint, especially when the writer tends towards certain phrasings.

Didn't know I was so wuved among the little birdies. ^^
Not that I was trying to hide my identity to start with, but yes, you must be quite proud of yourself for having made that little connection. I like this nick a lot better than I do HD. ^^

Actually, I'm referring to the point when Aerith focused on the Zacklike aspects of Faux Cloud while convincing herself that they were different,

Cloud's awkwardness is certainly not an aspect of Zack...is it?

Later in the narrative where the things that made the boy 'unique' to Aerith, that made up the 'real' him to her perception were emulated traits from Zack.

I need quotes and details on what these 'unique' traits are.

Forgive me, but you'll have to point out the rejection. I see a bandying about and a pointing out of a flaw, not a rejection. I mean, there's not even a set of ellipses in there.

"But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith."

"Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zacks."

While it's not a total and outright rejection, it's more of a negative reply than a positive one. It's what a woman would say to a dear friend when she doesn't want his feelings hurt. It's certainly not the type of a reply a woman would give to a man she's digging romantically.

She doesn't have to change her mind for her earlier declarations of loving Cloud hollow when she describes him in terms of certain characteristics which do not describe the real him well at all and which were emulated from Zack.

I need quotes. Not sure what you're referring to.

Zack thought she was important enough to write home about and wanted his parents to meet her. Sounds serious to me.

Sounds serious to you, sure...but the facts say otherwise.
I really didn't think much of that, especially since their relationship never got to the point where she actually did meet his parents. Meh, Zack never even got to telling his parents who she was. Again their relationship was a light taste of first love. What more proof do you need?

but it is the traits that make up Zack that Aerith is gaga over. It makes perfect sense for the flame to rekindle, since it technically did when she fell for Zack's persona as emulated in Cloud.
Though if Zack was just a light taste of first love, Cloud was nothing more than a sniff.

I need something to back that up.

Aerith was clearly saying that while she saw similarities between the two men at first, they're not the same. Seems to me like most of your arguments revolve around the idea that Aerith's words shouldn't be trusted. What reason do you have for not trusting her words?

Also, the narrator has already given us the facts...so why not just accept them? Zack was Aerith's light taste of first love and is now a dear friend to her. She loves Cloud more than her first love. There shouldn't be any arguments.

I'm not denying that Aerith loved Faux Cloud more than Zack. But Faux Cloud is not Cloud himself, and was to Aerith's perception at the very least, comprised of things taken from Zack proper.

...guess I'm still waiting for you to name those 'unique' traits that Aerith loves so much about Cloud which had been emulated from Zack.

Yes, she keeps Tifa from getting Mako poisoning and guides her towards Cloud. She then sits back and watches as Tifa is the one to restore Cloud's true self. I'm not saying Aerith was uninvolved period, I'm saying she was uninvolved in restoring Cloud's mind, since she was.

Since we're on the topic, and if you ask me, Tifa isn't all that special. Anyone who had been there with Clould in his childhood would have had knowledge of his past and could have restored him. I really don't know what all the fuss is about or why people are gloating that Aerith didn't restore Cloud. I don't think anyone was expecting her to.

Not to Tifa, who is granted immediate access and allowed to run free inside, to say nothing of Cloud and Tifa's hearts called out and heard each other when they were in the lifestream.

Wasn't it optional whether Cloud heard Tifa calling him or not? I was pretty sure it was.

Except that that she said this after Cloud's memories had been restored, and she gazed on them both, as a couple.

Where does it say that she sees them as a couple? Is Aerith not allowed to look at two people without it meaning she is seeing them as a couple?

Inventing a rejection, for example.

It wasn't total outright rejection, but LIKE that of a rejection...not that it makes that much of a difference. More negative than positive is what I'm getting at.

Which is relevant to how Cloud views family because? And negates the fact that Tifa sees Cloud as a young father how?

Doesn't matter to me how Tifa saw Cloud. Maybe she's lying...
Cloud saw himself like a young father where? Cloud saw himself as father and Tifa as mother of the family where? Again, SE tells us Cloud is like a big kid himself...so.... *shrugs*

You are incorrect. Cloud feeling there is obvious. He is confused. Why is he confused? Well, he did just wake up. It tends to be disorienting when one awakens halfway through a question.

I was referring to Cloud's feelings for Tifa...which is unclear as always. If he was confused about her question, obviously, he could not have given us an answer to that question. Is it made clear whether Cloud loves Tifa or not? Of course not.

The facts have been laid out in MoTP that Aerith loves Cloud more than her first love and that Zack is now a dear friend to her. To keep arguing and to ignore the answers that have already been dished out to us is to waste time.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Tifa: "do you love me, Cloud?"
Cloud: *dubious*

It was only clear from one side as it has always been.

Good lord, do you people INSIST on misquoting things???

If you will recall, she asked him "Do you love me?" when he was asleep. He obviously did not hear her if he was sound asleep. What she did ask him when he was awake was "Do you love Marlene?"

Please, if you can't quote something right, don't quote it at all.

 

[Serah]

Actually she didn't misquote it Dragon Mage. Before the copies were released in English by the Square translators, these stories were online way beforehand. In that particular part of the story, Tifa asks Cloud while he's sleeping if he loves her. When he wakes up, he looks dubious. Then she asks if he loves Marlene. It's not misquoted at all. Calm down dear

 

[Dragon Mage]

*dubious* Yes, that's what I just said. She never asked Cloud if he loved her.....unless we're thinking of something completely different.....

Maybe he'd look 'dubious' because he's wondering why Tifa is in his room?

 

[Daenerys]

This is going far too off topic, first it was about Aerith loved and now it's all about Tifa and Cloud?

Get back on topic please

 

[Serah]

*dubious* Yes, that's what I just said. She never asked Cloud if he loved her.....unless we're thinking of something completely different.....

Maybe he'd look 'dubious' because he's wondering why Tifa is in his room?

...we're not talking about that, but yes Tifa did ask Cloud if he loved her while he was asleep. It's in the translation. Just look up the story Case of Tifa. I agree with Mark. Let's get this back on topic.