Original Dissidia Tier List & Matchup Data
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Cecil Strife
A.K.A. Cecil Strife
Whoa, I never thought Zidane was that good. I thought he would be near the middle or upper middle, not the number 1 spot!
Then again, when I use Zidane, I win almost any match exept the (impossible) Inward Chaos ones. This will be pretty useful, so thanks for posting it.
Then again, when I use Zidane, I win almost any match exept the (impossible) Inward Chaos ones. This will be pretty useful, so thanks for posting it.
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ShineThatLight
Newbie
Oh my, had to register here just so I could comment on one or two things in this thread. First of all, infinites are not taken into account in this tier list, seeing as it was constructed under KAoS tournament ruling.
Now to respond to old posts that I wasn't here to read.
No, he really can't. Onion Knight is a poor version of what Zidane is good at. That being said all those matchups you thought OK had a chance in, they are not favorable matchups for a reason. If you really need it explained why I can break down every person you listed and how they can successfully dismantle an OK. He definitely isn't a "mage killer" by any means, and will get stomped by pretty much every mage, especially Ultimecia, good luck even hitting her with Onion Knight. As for your "Once OK has got the game controlled.." fiasco, that simply isn't true, not only can every character opt to play OHKO versus Onion Knight where he will never do enough brave to actually break and win but he is a damage sponge and will quickly give up any "hard earned" brave you just got.
Sephiroth, Kefka, and Gabranth are pretty easy to play, just because you have difficulty doesn't mean the rest of us do. You know what your argument sounded like to me? "I can't play ___, ___, and ___ so they should definitely not be good characters!"
Reverse Polarity + SnL pressure, have fun not doing anything versus Exdeath >.>.. because that always works.. right?... right?!
These weren't "tests" this was gathered data and general matchup knowledge that many people (myself included) have put together and learned over the course of the years of this game's play. The data portion was based on KAoS rules (the most accepted tournament ruleset thus far, and probably the most used) and the applied matchups (the hard numbers you see here were weighted by individual and group discussion keep in mind) were gathered from the most recognized players of each character (no one person did any one character by themselves) from the tournament scene and then combined with data results from tournies that can be found once Dissidia Forums is up again in each tournament section on the site (props to Veysey, Wedge and.. I think Slayer.. for their work gathering all the data and organizing it) which will present you with "raw" data unweighted by various scenarios or individual opinions. Those two things together constructed the basis for the tier list. As this was based on a tournament rule set, it does not hold basis in ruleless/unrestricted games and infintes/excounters/unlimited bursts/ect can cause a fluctuation in tiers.
I'll post more when I feel like it/remember.. but before I go I have to say:
Shut up Robo, for your sake I hope you were being sarcastic, I'll confront you in the IRC about this post in a little bit. It will be followed by lulz and ridicule.
Kaiser6012
Recruit
Interesting... interesting...
I gotta say from the start, I'm an avid Super Smash Bros. fan, so I'm no stranger to "tires don exits" matches (you should've seen the backlash when the back room made Hyrule tier official... but I digress).
Firstly, YES! Finally I'm good at people who are high tier! I've played with low-tier guys in most fighting games I played because they fit my style, and now I've been vindicated!
Secondly, an amusing note: the villains and heroes of each particular story all match up, roughly, with Cosmos gaining the upper hand. Notable examples of this not happening are Squall (who absolutely murders Ultimecia with Aerial/Fated Circle, I presume) and Cecil (I dunno the reason for this... perhaps Cecil's physical playstyle gets shut down by the magic parts of Golbez? I'unno - haven't played them enough).
Third, what weight would you say the tiers have on actual performance? I'm not debating the presence or absence of tiers, merely their effect. Is it as bad as Smash Bros. where choosing a character poorly will result in death? Or is it more like Street Fighter where there is always hope no matter the choices made?
Finally, my thoughts on the matter of tiers from a personal standpoint: Tiers are a statistic, no more and no less. Tiers exist, that is a fact that only the foolish deny and the verbose debate. What I debate is their meaning to me - it does not mean that one character is necessarily better than another, it just means that the metagame has tipped the scales in certain group's favour. If I bring a strategy to bear that has never been used before (say, stacking Bartz with certain attacks to make him buff in certain situations or pulling off an effective Iai build with the Emperor... actually, that'd be fearsome, methinks...), the metagame will shift and the tiers will change. I use tiers to inform me as to how X goes against Y in the current climate - I don't let them dictate who I'm good or bad with, they're just numbers.
In short, the tiers, at least for me, are made to be tested by the best I have to offer. If I fail, so be it - there are a myriad of ways to test it differently.
Back on what's being discussed, reverse polarity's end lag is dodge cancellable. You'll most likely see your sword biting air in good time for Exdeath to recover. And SnL... well, that's built for Exdeath waiting games, isn't it? Combined with concentration, it's like Exdeath's staring you down from across the battlefield...
(I just worked out what was meant by SnL meant as I was typing. God I'm such an idiot.
)
I gotta say from the start, I'm an avid Super Smash Bros. fan, so I'm no stranger to "tires don exits" matches (you should've seen the backlash when the back room made Hyrule tier official... but I digress).
Firstly, YES! Finally I'm good at people who are high tier! I've played with low-tier guys in most fighting games I played because they fit my style, and now I've been vindicated!
Secondly, an amusing note: the villains and heroes of each particular story all match up, roughly, with Cosmos gaining the upper hand. Notable examples of this not happening are Squall (who absolutely murders Ultimecia with Aerial/Fated Circle, I presume) and Cecil (I dunno the reason for this... perhaps Cecil's physical playstyle gets shut down by the magic parts of Golbez? I'unno - haven't played them enough).
Third, what weight would you say the tiers have on actual performance? I'm not debating the presence or absence of tiers, merely their effect. Is it as bad as Smash Bros. where choosing a character poorly will result in death? Or is it more like Street Fighter where there is always hope no matter the choices made?
Finally, my thoughts on the matter of tiers from a personal standpoint: Tiers are a statistic, no more and no less. Tiers exist, that is a fact that only the foolish deny and the verbose debate. What I debate is their meaning to me - it does not mean that one character is necessarily better than another, it just means that the metagame has tipped the scales in certain group's favour. If I bring a strategy to bear that has never been used before (say, stacking Bartz with certain attacks to make him buff in certain situations or pulling off an effective Iai build with the Emperor... actually, that'd be fearsome, methinks...), the metagame will shift and the tiers will change. I use tiers to inform me as to how X goes against Y in the current climate - I don't let them dictate who I'm good or bad with, they're just numbers.
In short, the tiers, at least for me, are made to be tested by the best I have to offer. If I fail, so be it - there are a myriad of ways to test it differently.
Back on what's being discussed, reverse polarity's end lag is dodge cancellable. You'll most likely see your sword biting air in good time for Exdeath to recover. And SnL... well, that's built for Exdeath waiting games, isn't it? Combined with concentration, it's like Exdeath's staring you down from across the battlefield...
(I just worked out what was meant by SnL meant as I was typing. God I'm such an idiot.
)
ShineThatLight
Newbie
Wow, I thought no one was going to reply to this :3 my mistake, sorry I didn't reply sooner.
Exdeath can cancel the cooldown of Reverse Polarity into any other attack, likewise he can just dodge and cover his dodge with any guard attack (this is actually a very popular and effective way to play Exdeath.. Take a look at xffixbmlx's tourny videos for a good example of what I mean).
People sometimes just can't accept that some characters are genuinely better than others, some people seem to be under the illusion that just because they can win a few Destiny Odyssey fights they are the go to guy for a character.
#2
I noticed that too actually, a lot of villains and heroes are paired up or at least close on the tier (Zidane/Kuja, Kefka/Terra, Ulty/Squall) maybe it is because they tried to make their styles similar? Maybe it is just favoritism? Who knows hah. As for Cecil/Golbez.. Terrible matchup, avoid it if at all possible, Golbez has a hardcounter to every attack Cecil can throw out.
#3
That's up for debate I suppose. This game hasn't watered down to the top and high tier characters, and on occasion we see some lower tier characters get pretty high in tournaments. On the other hand, we do see more and more top tier characters hitting first through third (of course) and that does increase popularity. I guess what I am saying is, this game boils down to about 60% skill and 35% character choice and 5% blind luck. As a matter o' fact, there have been a few running gags for a while now.. Until just recently a Cecil player has never made it into the top 10 (or was it top 8?) of a tourny. So in short, there is still a lot of diversity to be had, because at the end of the day people will play who they want and the gap isn't that big in tiers, but if you are hellbent on winning a tourny you'll have a much easier time with a "better" character. Of course, this doesn't mean anything if you have no skill to back it up (as with all fighting games, you need at least a small window of understanding) but a Zidane player has to work a lot less to be "good" than say, a Cloud player.
#4
Very well said, and I agree with you vigorously. You have a way with words man, and I couldn't have said it better if I had spent hours trying. The part that really hit the nail on the head for me was :
#5
Concentration isn't as handy as it was in the JP version (where you just didn't have to attack) because now you have to stand perfectly still.. no walking.. jumping.. dodging.. getting hit :/ They kind of ruined Concentration in the region shift. But yes, SnL and Reverse Polarity are Exdeath's main tools.. plus if he does get a counter off he'll do some major damage. It also doesn't hurt that RP is very.. very hard to punish.
#6
I actually don't know what made us pick SnL over SaL.. I guess it just looked better? Or was easier to type? iirc it was just something that came up in the IRC one day and stuck. Don't worry, you're not the only one that has been thrown off by the abbreviation.
They have been based upon the mighty number of tournies we've had (I believe it is.. 7 Adhoc and 3 Kai? Not to mention all the tournies other people have hosted (Get Salty 2 is going to be underway with a 100$ prize soon at the Dissidia Counter Burst site :3, and Mordox did a ton, and there have been a lot of local tournies in some places) that kind of go unnoticed.
Usage hasn't been too badly effected for the most part, you'll still see a lot of diversity within tournaments.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DissidiaForums
Check out that channel, it has the DissidiaForums Adhoc Tournament replays on it.. I'm ashamed of how KAoS 2.0 is going though, please do not use that to gauge our meta :/
Exdeath can cancel the cooldown of Reverse Polarity into any other attack, likewise he can just dodge and cover his dodge with any guard attack (this is actually a very popular and effective way to play Exdeath.. Take a look at xffixbmlx's tourny videos for a good example of what I mean).
#1
People sometimes just can't accept that some characters are genuinely better than others, some people seem to be under the illusion that just because they can win a few Destiny Odyssey fights they are the go to guy for a character.
#2
I noticed that too actually, a lot of villains and heroes are paired up or at least close on the tier (Zidane/Kuja, Kefka/Terra, Ulty/Squall) maybe it is because they tried to make their styles similar? Maybe it is just favoritism? Who knows hah. As for Cecil/Golbez.. Terrible matchup, avoid it if at all possible, Golbez has a hardcounter to every attack Cecil can throw out.
#3
That's up for debate I suppose. This game hasn't watered down to the top and high tier characters, and on occasion we see some lower tier characters get pretty high in tournaments. On the other hand, we do see more and more top tier characters hitting first through third (of course) and that does increase popularity. I guess what I am saying is, this game boils down to about 60% skill and 35% character choice and 5% blind luck. As a matter o' fact, there have been a few running gags for a while now.. Until just recently a Cecil player has never made it into the top 10 (or was it top 8?) of a tourny. So in short, there is still a lot of diversity to be had, because at the end of the day people will play who they want and the gap isn't that big in tiers, but if you are hellbent on winning a tourny you'll have a much easier time with a "better" character. Of course, this doesn't mean anything if you have no skill to back it up (as with all fighting games, you need at least a small window of understanding) but a Zidane player has to work a lot less to be "good" than say, a Cloud player.
#4
Very well said, and I agree with you vigorously. You have a way with words man, and I couldn't have said it better if I had spent hours trying. The part that really hit the nail on the head for me was :
That is.. beyond true. As our current metagame developed, the characters that could safely poke, land HP attacks, and chip away at you quickly were put on a pedestal. The biggest determining factor (and it only has a handful of exceptions, such as Firion and Golbez) is the ability to cancel Snooze and Lose (SnL) safely. I don't like how campy the Dissidia metagame turned out to be, and I hope for change in Duodecim, but that's just the way it is.
#5
Concentration isn't as handy as it was in the JP version (where you just didn't have to attack) because now you have to stand perfectly still.. no walking.. jumping.. dodging.. getting hit :/ They kind of ruined Concentration in the region shift. But yes, SnL and Reverse Polarity are Exdeath's main tools.. plus if he does get a counter off he'll do some major damage. It also doesn't hurt that RP is very.. very hard to punish.
#6
I actually don't know what made us pick SnL over SaL.. I guess it just looked better? Or was easier to type? iirc it was just something that came up in the IRC one day and stuck. Don't worry, you're not the only one that has been thrown off by the abbreviation.
They have been based upon the mighty number of tournies we've had (I believe it is.. 7 Adhoc and 3 Kai? Not to mention all the tournies other people have hosted (Get Salty 2 is going to be underway with a 100$ prize soon at the Dissidia Counter Burst site :3, and Mordox did a ton, and there have been a lot of local tournies in some places) that kind of go unnoticed.
Usage hasn't been too badly effected for the most part, you'll still see a lot of diversity within tournaments.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DissidiaForums
Check out that channel, it has the DissidiaForums Adhoc Tournament replays on it.. I'm ashamed of how KAoS 2.0 is going though, please do not use that to gauge our meta :/
But what if that's just because a lot of people use Zidane, etc? Even with reverse polarity + dummy guard, the opponent can just run and then use a simple attack. Also, against characters with unblockable moves, it just gets worse..
Anyway, will the tiers actually do anything? Will there be like banlists for certain tourneys for say, S class characters are banned?
Anyway, will the tiers actually do anything? Will there be like banlists for certain tourneys for say, S class characters are banned?