Does FF Lack a sense of resources?

[Captain Squee]

As the thread says. My a sense of resource I mean does it feel like you are limited in what you can do, or are you just pelting out super powerful skill after super powerful skill?

To give a few examples of what it means to lack in resources...

In Final Fantasy VII You can acquire the Mimic Materia, and once it has been acquired you can go to any super difficult boss and use either Omni Slash or Knights of the Round. Normally, these two skills are so powerful they almost guarantee victory. Now we introduce the mimic materia, allowing you to use one of these two endlessly without limitation. The sense of resource is completely annihilated as you can use them as much as you desire. Knights of the Round is of course the better example, since once you level the materia it can be used multiple times, which is just a little bit of grinding away. Eventually you might have to heal up, so mimic will no longer repeat Omni Slash, but you can always use Knights of the Round after you've healed up.

Even FFVIII draw system lacked in a sense of resource. Junction things you plan to not use very often, such as Full Life, and Ultima. Use Cerberus to triple your characters, then put Aura on all of them and use meltdown on whatever target and spam limit breaks to no end, especially if you know where to draw them from. Doing this you can use Quistis to heal, or even Selphie, so there is no need for Full Life. Zell and Squall can annihilate with physical damage since the enemies defense will be 0 from meltdown. This will work on anything other than Omega Weapon...Unless you have hero drinks, or Rinoa use her limit and get invincible moon. Which can be done with Aura. Which is easy to abuse.

IX sense of resource is slightly better because you can't control trances very well, especially when grinding for a few levels. For the most part, IX resource flaw is that the few limited resources there are are completely unnecessary. You can beat almost (almost) any non-boss with normal physical attacks anyway. And if you can't, Ethers, while they didn't grow on trees, came more often than you needed them. Elixers were completely unnecessary if you did even a small amount of grinding, so those could even be used as MP regeneration. And of course, Vivi with Osmosis could just suck out more, so his offensive sense of resource was also completely unlimited.

As far as Ten goes...Nothing was a resource. Maybe it was just me, but every single thing you had other than summons felt like completely unlimited resources. To this day, I don't even know what the game over screen looks like. I found myself unleashing over powered skills one after another without comsequence, and again with being able to kill most foes without skills. The ability to change your party mid combat made the sense even worse, since that made nearly no limitations in the game at all. While the summon system was great, probably the best (Probably because I've not played them all), meant nothing when you didn't even need to use them. I got an overkill on the final Aeon ffs.

Now, Final Fantasy One in its original set up, that was a sense of resource. Instead of raw numbers, skills costing x amount of MP, it was done in levels of spells. You had x amount of uses of x level of spells, which meant you couldn't continue to unleash your best skills on your way to the boss, this even included heals, so you were conflicted to use your offensive power before you get to the boss, or use your healing abilities and do drawn out battles before you got to the boss. Then there was the alternative that I personally preferred, grinding to withstand beatings. Even then, when I finally got to the boss, I was only able to dish out so much punishment on the actual boss and I had to unleash everything. At that point, you then have to travel back out of the dungeon with no resources at all. It was very tricky if you weren't at a good enough level. I will grant, you also had the Warp 2 option, but that also ate up your white mages skill usage.

Disclaimer: Only played Final Fantasy Origins version of FFI, not sure if there is a difference from the original.

Any of you also feel that Final Fantasy just lets you unleash all your abilities without enough limitation? I like it to feel like I'm not god, it gives me a better sense of conflict, a better sense of achievement.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

I suppose it's different for everyone.
I think that some people will figure out or have figured out what resources the games do have, use them, and be left wanting more. Then there are those that die all the time that simply don't get how these games are played.
I would like to see different difficulty settings in future games for those wanting a greater challenge where resources aren't unlimited but at the same time there is more to choose from.

 

[Dean Winchester]

Final Fantasy games nowadays are more focused on providing a flashy, highly active, action-oriented gaming experience instead of the traditional Role Playing Games in which you actually had to put some thought-process in order to complete them. This is not only FF games, but the whole gaming industry in general, hence why most games nowadays have little replay value in my opinion (unless they are multiplayer games).

As for the resources, I do see your point. I remember how FFVII, VIII and even X allowed you to use your resources in order to adjust characters and gameplay to your fighting style and they were limited, meaning that if you selected one path pretty much you had to stick with it.

But now, I don't know, most characters seem to be too overpowered to me. Too much focus on the flashiness of the game and very little on the actual content.

 

[Razberry Knight]

ok first things first. the term lack of sense of resources is innacurate. what youre going against is the lack of need to use the resources provided. and thats most likely because more mechanics are being added to add new aspects of battle.

Final fantasy 7 mime materia just one and even then you need a guide to get it most of the time. most of the things going in without guide would be missed. so its not like the game made it to your every advantage. afterall you did lose your healer in the game.

the junction system in ff8 provided some interesting aspects. but i felt really unrefined. again though getting better GFs is a challenge at times.


ff9 dont really understand.

ff10i agree....but i dont blame the mechanics. most of the game offers more mechanics but not enough stakes to use them or master them. thats the real problem.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

Razberry Knight I can say that I agree with you. Some of the games had resources that you really didn't need or hardly ever used and there was no point to master them except for bragging rights...good point.
Some stuff can be missed but most stuff I found. It all depends on how much time was spent with the game and how good you were at exploring.

However I don't think that is Captain Squee's point. I won't say I know where's he's going with this but it's an interesting topic. I've had it in the back of my mind a little bit.

There are resources but it's been easy (at least for me without a guide) to exploit those resources. Morrowind had resources but it's easy to exploit those too and I never used a guide. That Elder Scrolls game as well as most others only had one difficulty. There was a difficulty slider in Morrowind but that didn't work like it should have. This topic of resource while about Final Fantasy plays into RPG's. With Squee's Role-Playing experience I think he knows what he's talking about more than I do.

We can't change the past but this is interesting for future RPG games including Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy XV (forgive them Sakaguchi they know not what they do) will most likely be a walk in the park so I'm not counting that, but who knows.

I understand why a lot of these RPG games are easier for mass play. To a skilled RPG player or skilled Final Fantasy player what resources are available can be exploited, and can become too easy for you to achieve god-like status using your best skills all the time hence there is no challenge. The only thing that is against you is time.

Casual RPG players or action RPG players won't get this.

When I've played Final Fantasies or any RPG I look for the exploits to get the best gear faster as well as complete the game faster while doing everything. I can do that without having game over screens with a lot of RPG's. I didn't read a guide on Final Fantasy I-IV or on V yet and I only died a couple of times on I until I figured I had to pace myself with my MP and spells. I did use warp and I grinded more mid game to avoid beatings lol. I died on II more until I figured out that hitting myself lol helped. I died a couple times on III and once on IV but after that no deaths and I ended up getting the best equipment.

I've always wanted to have Final Fantasy as well as other video game RPG's to have a higher difficulty, but only as an option as everyone doesn't want that challenge.

Captain if I'm off on something let me know.

 

[Captain Squee]

ok first things first. the term lack of sense of resources is innacurate. what youre going against is the lack of need to use the resources provided. and thats most likely because more mechanics are being added to add new aspects of battle.

No, I mean resouces

Final fantasy 7 mime materia just one and even then you need a guide to get it most of the time. most of the things going in without guide would be missed. so its not like the game made it to your every advantage. afterall you did lose your healer in the game.

You get enough cure materia for free, and alls were mastered on accident, to the point of selling them because why not. Mime was nothing more than an example, and maybe I'm just really good at games, but I got it without a guide, even Knights of the round (By that I mean gold chocobo ofc, admittedly by a fluke...) And "losing your healer" is so so SO not true. Looking at the magic stat which effects healing, Cloud and Vincent (ok we can ignore Vincent for side character sake) and even Cait Sith were quite effective at magic. Given the materia system, the only exclusive heal Aerith had was her limit breaks, which were unreliable due to you needing to be hit. When looking at Limit Breaks, Clear Tranquility was a good enough healer, too. If you like I can sit here and explain every single issue with the resources in FFVII, that was but one example of the many.

the junction system in ff8 provided some interesting aspects. but i felt really unrefined. again though getting better GFs is a challenge at times.

Speak for yourself...I thought the GFs were stupidly easy other than Diablo, but only if you wanted him early in the game, since you could get him at any point. Even Bahamut was easy...With meltdown, Aura, Renzokuken spam. Even magic was completely unnecessary once you did some cactuar grinding for your GFs. Though I do agree with the junction system being unrefined, it felt unfinished.

ff9 dont really understand.

Which part lost you? Perhaps I can explain...

ff10i agree....but i dont blame the mechanics. most of the game offers more mechanics but not enough stakes to use them or master them. thats the real problem.

I don't necessarily blame the mechanics for the lack of resources, I blame it for the lack in difficulty. The fact that people can even get a game over baffles me, it was stupidly easy.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

I have to say Squee, based on your knowledge of the inter-workings of these games as well as RPG knowledge in general you are an above average gamer. I know some of the exploits of the games but not near to what you know. I consider myself good at games but your better than me. I never died in X so at least I have that lol. I agree with you though there are others like you that would benefit from a harder difficulty in games like these or probably games period. I bet you dominate in RP too, if that's valid of course. Still haven't looked into what that's all about.

I know this next thing is off topic Squee but I really like your signature. The strong, the smart, the mighty, the wicked. I think I've heard of that somewhere but the source escapes me.

 

[Razberry Knight]

ok...really good at games, doesn't really mean lack of sense of resources. if you mean resources, then i'm sorry, but its still inacurate or just plain wrong.

most materia you get for free, but its not like its convenient to fill up your materia with just cure materia. Cloud has a limited ammount of materia. mime materia is one example, but since it was my first game, most of the things i missed i had to redo. and some are time-constraint.

i had a hard time getting Puu and yes diablo. and i'm not saying ALL GFs were hard, but some were. and even then, the idea was fun to getting them. was it unfinished? i believe so.

for ff9 i just didn't understand with the "lack of sense of resources" the way you explained it was more of how resources weren't as necessary...


i just feel liek you're not worfing things correctly. resources are there. but you're not talking about that their lacking, just thay are needed.

 

[Captain Squee]

ok...really good at games, doesn't really mean lack of sense of resources. if you mean resources, then i'm sorry, but its still inacurate or just plain wrong.

Explain how you got to the conclusion that this is what I was saying.

most materia you get for free, but its not like its convenient to fill up your materia with just cure materia. Cloud has a limited ammount of materia. mime materia is one example, but since it was my first game, most of the things i missed i had to redo. and some are time-constraint.

Constraint: a limitation or restriction. I don't think you're using that word properly. Perhaps you mean consuming?

Everyone has a limited amount of materia, your point? 'Tis just one slot, two for an All, that you would be putting on Aerith anyway due to limit breaks being unreliable when you need them. Not to mention, I listed 3 characters that were good with healing and other magic.

i had a hard time getting Puu and yes diablo. and i'm not saying ALL GFs were hard, but some were. and even then, the idea was fun to getting them. was it unfinished? i believe so.

Who's puu?

01 - Quezacotl	09 - Pandemona
02 - Shiva	10 - Cerberus
03 - Ifrit	11 - Alexander
04 - Siren	12 - Doomtrain
05 - The Brothers	13 - Bahamut
06 - Diablos	14 - Jumbo Cactaur
07 - Carbuncle	15 - Tonberry King
08 - Leviathan	16 - Eden

for ff9 i just didn't understand with the "lack of sense of resources" the way you explained it was more of how resources weren't as necessary...

i just feel liek you're not worfing things correctly. resources are there. but you're not talking about that their lacking, just thay are needed.

Lacking in use is also a lack in resource because a resource such as dirt in the real world is there, but we don't exactly need it for everything. Perhaps it's not me using the wrong words, perhaps it's you not knowing what the words mean. Example, FFI as I stated, you can level up and your level 1 spells will have a ton of casts, but heal 1 isn't exactly a viable option, it's not a resource that makes sense to use. I realize this isn't completely connected to my example for IX, this is only an example for the way something with little use can be a lack in resource. Maybe that will help clear the misunderstanding.

I've argued once before with you, I know this can go nowhere, I voiced my opinion and you attempted to shoot down my examples. My intention with this thread was not to spark an argument but to hear others views, not for them to argue against me. If you don't think it was lacking, then state your reasons for thinking that rather than the reasons of me being wrong, there is quite a difference.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Explain how you got to the conclusion that this is what I was saying.

Because rather than explaining on how much it lacked "sense of resources" you explain how much the game made it easy. which rather explaining how the lacking it is, you explain how "unneeded" most are. or how easyt the game makes it for you. not that the resources aren't there.

Constraint: a limitation or restriction. I don't think you're using that word properly. Perhaps you mean consuming?

similar to BBC where you could only do things at certain times. With FF7's overworld some events happened, which meant they were time constraint.

Everyone has a limited amount of materia, your point? 'Tis just one slot, two for an All, that you would be putting on Aerith anyway due to limit breaks being unreliable when you need them. Not to mention, I listed 3 characters that were good with healing and other magic.

i'm talking about slots. its pointless to talk about

Who's puu?

01 - Quezacotl	09 - Pandemona
02 - Shiva	10 - Cerberus
03 - Ifrit	11 - Alexander
04 - Siren	12 - Doomtrain
05 - The Brothers	13 - Bahamut
06 - Diablos	14 - Jumbo Cactaur
07 - Carbuncle	15 - Tonberry King
08 - Leviathan	16 - Eden

mind slipped...i meant to say Cactuar. i was thinking about how to defeat Pupu and even made a typo.

Lacking in use is also a lack in resource because a resource such as dirt in the real world is there, but we don't exactly need it for everything.

thats not a lack of resource, if you're admitting the resources exist just not necessary.

Perhaps it's not me using the wrong words, perhaps it's you not knowing what the words mean. Example, FFI as I stated, you can level up and your level 1 spells will have a ton of casts, but heal 1 isn't exactly a viable option, it's not a resource that makes sense to use. I realize this isn't completely connected to my example for IX, this is only an example for the way something with little use can be a lack in resource. Maybe that will help clear the misunderstanding.

but the resources exist. the stakes aren't high enough for the need to develop them further.

I've argued once before with you, I know this can go nowhere, I voiced my opinion and you attempted to shoot down my examples. My intention with this thread was not to spark an argument but to hear others views, not for them to argue against me. If you don't think it was lacking, then state your reasons for thinking that rather than the reasons of me being wrong, there is quite a difference.

i dont think it was "lacking" becuase theres nothing that you're saying that is saying that its "lacking" only the lacking in "need", not in "existence".

 

[Captain Squee]

I'll drop this here...

Spoiler

re·source
ˈrēˌsôrs,ˈrēˈzôrs,riˈsôrs,riˈzôrs/
noun
noun: resource; plural noun: resources

• 1.
  a stock or supply of money, materials, staff, and other assets that can be drawn on by a person or organization in order to function effectively.
  "local authorities complained that they lacked resources"
  

  synonyms:

  assets, funds, wealth, money, capital; Morestaff; supplies, materials, raw materials, store(s), stock(s), reserve(s) "use your resources efficiently"

  
  
  
  • a country's collective means of supporting itself or becoming wealthier, as represented by its reserves of minerals, land, and other assets.
    
    
    
  • North American
    available assets.
    
    
  
  
  
  
  
• 2.
  an action or strategy that may be adopted in adverse circumstances.
  "sometimes anger is the only resource left in a situation like this"
  

  synonyms:

  expedient, resort, course, scheme, stratagem; Moretrick, ruse, device "tears were her only resource"

  
  
  
  • one's personal attributes and capabilities regarded as able to help or sustain one in adverse circumstances.
    "we had been left very much to our own resources"
    
    
    
  • the ability to find quick and clever ways to overcome difficulties.
    "a man of resource"
    

    synonyms:

    initiative, resourcefulness, enterprise, ingenuity, inventiveness; Moretalent, ability, capability; informalgumption "a person of resource"

    
    
    
    
  • archaic
    the possibility of aid or assistance.
    "the flower of the French army was lost without resource"
    
    
  
  
  
  
  
• 3.
  archaic
  a leisure occupation.
  
  
  
  

verb
verb: resource; 3rd person present: resources; past tense: resourced; past participle: resourced; gerund or present participle: resourcing

• 1.
  provide (a person or organization) with materials, money, staff, and other assets necessary for effective operation.
  "ensuring that primary health care workers are adequately resourced"
  
  
  
  

Or

1
a : a source of supply or support : an available means —usually used in plural
b : a natural source of wealth or revenue —often used in plural
c : a natural feature or phenomenon that enhances the quality of human life
d : computable wealth —usually used in plural
e : a source of information or expertise

2
: something to which one has recourse in difficulty : expedient

3
: a possibility of relief or recovery

4
: a means of spending one's leisure time

5
: an ability to meet and handle a situation : resourcefulness



Or

re·source (rē′sôrs′, -sōrs′, -zôrs′, -zōrs′, rĭ-sôrs′, -sōrs′, -zôrs′, -zōrs′)n.1. Something that can be used for support or help: The local library is a valuable resource.
2. An available supply that can be drawn on when needed. Often used in the plural.
3. The ability to deal with a difficult or troublesome situation effectively; initiative: a person of resource.
4. Means that can be used to cope with a difficult situation. Often used in the plural: needed all my intellectual resources for the exam.
5. a. resources The total means available for economic and political development, such as mineral wealth, labor force, and armaments.
b. resources The total means available to a company for increasing production or profit, including plant, labor, and raw material; assets.
c. Such means considered individually.

---

https://www.google.com/search?q=def...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/resource

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/resource

I don't think Resource means what you think it means.

 

[Razberry Knight]

doesn't change a thing Captain Squee. my comment isn't wrong...you're just assuming it is by trying to find what the problem is.

FF has plent y of resources...it just doesn't have none of the stakes.

if you have said, the game had no cure where its designed to have it as an option, that would be a lack of resource.

but no you're more saying theres so much to this game, that whatever resource there is, their not necessary. and you admitted to this when explaining FF1's example.

 

[Captain Squee]

What?

This post will probably get deleted, but this is one of those situations where this needs to be said.

Wat?

 

[Razberry Knight]

ff1-6 slowly developed more resources, but used the basic resources less and less, and this is natural.

ff7-beyong made it to the point where finding a better way is second nature. making it seem like the basic resources aren't necessary, but the developed ones are there.

you're only explianing why you didn't feel like you needed certain resources, not that there was a "lack of".

 

[Captain Squee]

Do I need to quote the definition of Resource? The one I just posted earlier?

 

[Razberry Knight]

THe fact that you want to post it again, really shows that you're not trying to make conversation or even trying to prove a point. you're just trying to make it "seem" like i dont know the definition, but in reality you're just not being clear. you have not explained at all throughout this entire discussion what "resource" was lacking in each individual game, isntead you bring up how new mechanics or new resources make less use of the more basic ones.

 

[Captain Squee]

I'll drop this here...

• 2.
  an action or strategy that may be adopted in adverse circumstances.
  "sometimes anger is the only resource left in a situation like this"
  

  synonyms:

  expedient, resort, course, scheme, stratagem; Moretrick, ruse, device "tears were her only resource"

  • one's personal attributes and capabilities regarded as able to help or sustain one in adverse circumstances.
    "we had been left very much to our own resources"
  • the ability to find quick and clever ways to overcome difficulties.
    "a man of resource"
    

    synonyms:

    initiative, resourcefulness, enterprise, ingenuity, inventiveness; Moretalent, ability, capability; informalgumption "a person of resource"

  • archaic
    the possibility of aid or assistance.
    "the flower of the French army was lost without resource"

Are you sure that's the case? I thought my point was already cleared up.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

Good use of the word resource. I understood it. The definition made sense. The games had resources which would be classified also as strategy, the ability to overcome an obstacle along with the attributes and materials the characters used in the games.

You mentioned the resources. You explained the lack of resources and lack of strategy that it limited you, therefore lacking in resources to give you more options, strategy and not feel like god using the resources in an unlimited way.

And, as you said the games differ on resources so I could see ones like X needing more resources while others not as much.

I'm not a game designer but I can see this being an important topic in game development.

In direct answer to your question some games more than others for me. X definitely didn't have enough limitations. VII, VIII, and IX were more balanced to me at the time. After playing them multiple times I became aware.
For instance when I found the best way to do something I wanted a greater sense of conflict and achievement like you said. The saying "there's more than one way to skin a cat".

I want more than one way to defeat the monster or boss without being able to achieve god like status against it.

I would still only want that as a difficulty option on a harder mode where the resources would change to favor a difficult journey, and I would still want a normal option.

I hope that's accurate and informative enough Captain. Again, if I didn't get it please correct me.

 

[Six]

Reminder / Warning

I'd like the off-topic posts to get back on track.

Lets remember not everyone is going to see eye to eye on something, so let's at least respect people are going to have different views.

Any insulting or off-topic posts from this point on will be deleted and further action may be taken.


Thank you.
​

 

[Razberry Knight]

again...most of what you're describing isn't "lack of" anything that you could possibly define as a resource. you're only describing how other game mechanics that can be defined as resources make them others more useless.


but like i said "lack of" and "not necessary" are two different things. and you have yet to establish in each example what the resource for each one is, and how it becomes "lacking". only that the game makes it so its easier.