Does god forbid suicide or euthanasia?

[Shu]

Does the christian god forbid suicide or euthanasia? If so.. why?

I like to read around on some bias, and unbiased sites as well and ran across this.

http://www.ethicalatheism.com/?p=852

It seems entirely hypocritical that a church that expresses compassion, leading prayers for those dying in agony, at the same time opposes ending that agony. But the Bible says ‘Thou shalt not kill’, and is thus the direct cause of millions of human beings dying in agony every year.
Whilst it is true that there is a ‘slippery slope’ between gently putting a cancer victim to permanent sleep at their own request, and getting rid of an annoying old relative who is lingering on, tying up assets that could be passed to the next generation, the law already safeguards against such an eventuality. They are entirely different moral cases, and it is not difficult to tell the two things apart.
The case is similar with suicide. In most churches suicide is considered a ‘mortal sin’ that condemns the person taking their own life to eternal torture. Old age is an implacable enemy of quality of life for all of us. Imagine the agonies of a person who can no longer stand living a life of physical pain, indignity, and suffering. Double incontinence and senility with occasional flashes of lucidity. Every movement another cause of agony. Huge ulcerous bed sores that won’t ever heal. Care assistants on minimum wage who don’t actually care at all. Tortuous visits from relatives who come and sit by the bed, and have nothing to say. No way to change anything except wait for that slow lingering death.
Death is the only way out of their tortured existence for some people, and yet if they are religious, they have been taught that they must endure it or suffer an eternity of even worse torture. If they nevertheless get up the courage to take their own life and end their suffering, if they are able, their religious relatives are then tortured by thoughts that their beloved husband/wife/son/daughter/ has been condemned to hell for all eternity. To the true believer, this must be torture from which there can be no escape in this life. If a member of such a church helps bring the suffering to an end, they ‘know’ they have aided in a mortal sin and will themselves be condemned to an eternity in hell, when their own time comes.
Let’s be honest – there’s hardly a person alive who would allow a beloved pet to die in lingering agony. We do the kind thing when it becomes clear that our old friend has no quality of life, and will suffer increasing pain and eventual organ failure and agonising death. We do the kind thing and put the animal to sleep. And whilst that is still a heartbreaking decision that many of us have had to take, we are comforted by the thought that we did the right thing.
Wouldn’t it be a good thing if we could do the same for a sister, mother, brother, father, son, daughter or beloved friend?
But whilst religions have still got a grip, whilst they still take their idea of what is right and what is wrong from a medieval book that dictates the ‘truth’, churches are never going to agree that in the right circumstances, euthanasia is the right thing. Now that’s a bad thing about religion.

 

[Yaoi Master Gavin]

A similar thing came up recently in my own life. My great grandmother just passed away and prior to that I heard a number of things from my family who lived closer to her than we did (15 minutes compared to 3 hours). For the month leading up to her death, she asked my great uncle to kill her multiple times to stop the pain. She died at 96. I don't know about the rest of you but that's a full life - there's not much else left to do when you have to use a walker to get around and the slightest bit of change can cause a heart attack.

We talked a lot about it among family and, surprisingly, in my Ethical Issues in Science class on the last day. We all have a right to end our life. For the religious though, I think that God would be disapproving of those who take their life long before they should. However, I don't think he would blame the people like my great grandmother. Our bodies are merely shells and once they've done all they can do they wear out - we all know this. Her's ended at 96 after a full life, surrounded by family after a long while of physical pain.

There's a point where you can't actually live anymore and I believe that God knows this and understands that it's a way out. It's not some sort of test or anything - its a normal part of the human body. So no, I don't think God condemns suicide/euthanasia under the right circumstances, especially when the 'victim' is consenting and knows what they're doing.

 

[Lirael]

I personally feel that a loving god would not want to see the kind of suffering some people have to endure.

I do not support suicide, since most commit suicide because of how they feel. I recognise that mental conditions are as serious and as debilitating as physical ones, but those who really are suffering mentally should seek help. They should not end their life alone. :/

Euthanasia should only happen when people have seen doctors, discussed their issues properly and thoroughly, and when all parties truly believe that there is not going to be an improvement. Having said that, if someone's been suffering for a few years but the doctors feel they could recover ONE day MAYBE...I think that's still a good enough reason. I do not feel it is right for anyone to suffer mentally or physically for years on end. >.< If life is sacred, those who live through torment each day should be able to choose peace. :/

Should families have a say? Yes, but they should not be allowed to dictate what happens. I am sure those who truly care for their loved ones would support their decision, but some people are selfish and try to enforce their own opinion upon others.

To bring it back to God... I don't think any man can claim that God CERTAINLY forbids religion. Everything we 'know' about God is based on the words of other men, translated and retold. It's a bit like Chinese whispers! The words could have been distorted. Furthermore, we can't guarentee that one interpretation is correct. God may have said 'life is sacred,' but that does not translate into 'You cannot end a life when someone is suffering endlessly and severely.'

There is no doubt a passage in which God 'said' that man cannot and should not end life, and a passage (or several) in which suicide is deemed as immoral, but I doubt a loving God would want that to apply to every situation. There are probably situations in which he would accept that euthanasia is an act of love. Love is a lesson of Christianity. Love, in my personal opinion, is the MAIN lesson of Christianity.

A loving God would not comdemn anyone for bringing peace to the soul of a friend or a member of the family. A loving God would not call life sacred, then force good people to suffer for years; some suffer for the majority of their life.

 

[Shinra Executive]

The Bible does not denounce either suicide or euthanasia. There are several accounts of suicide in scripture, and none of them shed any light on what happens to the soul or if it angered God, etc.

The contexts of 'thou shall not kill' means to not murder. If it didn't, then killing animals for food would be breaking the Commandment. Suicide or assisted suicide is not murder because it is the choice of the one who wants to die. There are no victims in those pursuits, because a victim is one who is injured or dies under the pretenses of wanting to be unharmed or alive. If they want to die, then they aren't victims, they are suicidal you see.
There is a contextual difference.

The fact is that a lot of people misinterpret scripture. The Bible expresses that life is sacred, and so should be treated as such.
BUT,
however you decide the context of that is completely up to you, though I have to say, there is nothing sacred about living in vain or hopeless agony.

 

[Rapture]

Ohhhh dear

I think we have a pretty good idea of what God thinks about suicide, death, and life in general...through his book, the Bible.

In the Bible, asides from the obvious commandments such as:

Exodus 1:13- Thou shalt not murder (murder obviously being killing someone else or yourself)

There are also some various other scriptures about death in the Bible:

Jeremiah 29:13- For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Only he knows the time when he will call you home, trust that he knows this, and that while the present could lead to suffering and death, the thereafter will not)

Romans 6:23- For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. (We all will eventually die because we have all sinned, but his gift to us is in Jesus's saving grace...his giving his life for us grants us eternal life in heaven after our lives of sin and suffering)

John 10:10- The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. (The thief I'm assuming to be the devil)

Corinthians 6:19-20- Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. (If you believe you were created in the image of God then he is within you, so why would you want to dishonor him by ending it?)

I'm not perfect though so I'm generalizing that this is what he means when he says these things...this is my interpretation of his words.

 

[Shinra Executive]

Suicide is, in effect, self-murder.

Instead of referring to my last post, which would be just as effective, I'm just going to further concrete the reason why the statement above is false.

There is a difference between killing and murder. The only way you are going to understand scripture is if you understand it's contexts. Context is king- this is the golden rule of biblical hermeneutics. For example, if you believe killing is synonymous with murder and you have gone hunting or gotten stripes in the line of duty, you are in the same scope as actual criminal murderers.



There is a reason why Scripture has nigh to say about suicide directly. In fact, there are only two things in the whole spectrum of morality that it does not touch base on, and it's suicide and the age of sexual consent.
And it is not a coincidence. Perhaps I'll make a thread on the age of consent thing, but for now:

Not all suicides or assisted suicides are unjustified. Martyrdom, for starts, is a centrifugal force in the very foundations of Christianity. The apostles were martyred, as well as a great deal of early Christians.
These people had a choice to live, and so by extension, committed suicide.

The thing is, they did it for the greater good <> When you go to war, you kill for the greater good.
There is a big symmetry to be acknowledged in the above- when you assist in a suicide of a person in hopeless agony, you are doing it for the greater good. If you kill yourself, it is something to be pitied, not punished, and if it is murder, then it has to be punished. One trend the Bible also has is making long lists of things that condemn you, and suicide is non-existent every time.

Godly law is a very personal thing. It does not mesh with social bias or illogical escapades. It is very elementary and foundational. Murder is usually synonymous with killing an innocent human being, who is not mortally transgressing against you, and has a desire to live. Suicide does not fit that context.

 

[Shinra Executive]

It's murder in the sense that you're destroying your body, something that god says is a "temple" of the Holy Spirit. God says that rejection of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, if rejecting the Holy Spirit is considered bad then destroying the TEMPLE of the Holy Spirit is just as bad.

You did not even read my entire post, so until you do please don't just quote one set of a few words and think you know my argument.

In the Middle Ages, people were put to death for heresy against the Church. The justification for this was that since the Spirit moves with the Church, thereby making it infallible in doctrine and dogma, heresy was synonymous with blasphemy against the Spirit. The unpardonable sin, you see. And since the soul was doomed, the Church would go ahead and send them on their way, and it was considered a good work because it rid the world of an evil.

However, there has since been a change. Blasphemy of the Spirit is, by direct definition of the Church, to confound him with the spirit of evil, denying from pure malice the Divine character of works manifestly Divine.

Your interpretation of the Spirit is a bit outdated, to say the least. Martyrdom is destroying the temple, yet the Spirit is not rejected. Suicide occurs when misery outmatches one's desire to live- nobody dies wanting to go to Hell, suicide or not. A person who commits suicide is typically outside of God's grace anyway, so there is no spirit to reject. It's what put them in that state to begin with.

There are five accounts of suicide in the Old Testament, and one more in the New with Judas. Judas was not forsaken because he committed suicide, but because he rejected the Spirit when the Old Law was still in effect. That is to say, he wasn't even forsaken by suicide when the law was harsh, and so saying one is forsaken now that grace has kicked in is not only errant, but moving in the complete opposite direction. Kind of puts a wedge in your theory there.

Do you know why everyone likes your posts even though they are as inconsistent as a chipped whistle? It's for the same reason they have been liking every post in opposition to mine in this subforum. Don't base your beliefs on petty prejudice. I've studied theology for years now, and run these oppositions into the dirt. I didn't take all that time to simply promote some adulterated bias such as what you and others make a hobby of producing.
Being that I can discern that, it's probably better if you drop the attitude unless you simply want to resemble what I just stated. Because statements such as this:

With that in mind; taking your own life (whether out of agony or not) means you are essentially telling God that YOU know your fate and he does not.

are inherently fallacious. Your fate, obviously, was to commit suicide in the event hat you do so. So if anything, your post was entirely a misrepresentation, one that others on here could see if they could only get passed themselves for a second. Watching people worship each other to compensate for their inconsistencies is a pitiful site.

 

[Rapture]

Do you know why everyone likes your posts even though they are as inconsistent as a chipped whistle? It's for the same reason they have been liking every post in opposition to mine in this subforum. Don't base your beliefs on petty prejudice. I've studied theology for years now, and run these oppositions into the dirt.

Do you want to know why *I* agree with her posts? It's because they are based on SCRIPTURE, not someone's misinterpretation of the Bible, that's why. You don't like that, get over it. This is a debate forum, people are going to take sides, and they aren't always going to fall on the side of someone who likes to misconstrue and SKEW the facts to their own personal liking. I'm so glad you've studied theology for years, but the idea behind being CHRISTIAN is that the average person can be baptized, believe, and read the Bible so that they can be saved...it doesn't take a Theology major to be a Christian. Years and years of studying does not erase God's word as it was written in his book...so patronization is going to get you nowhere fast.

Being that I can discern that, it's probably better if you drop the attitude unless you simply want to resemble what I just stated.

Really? That's a little hypocritical of you, no? Respect is earned. She's passionate about what she believes in and doesn't have to result to low blows and disrespectful posts. She ASKED you to read the entirety of hers. I don't see the problem with that.

Your fate, obviously, was to commit suicide in the event hat you do so. So if anything, your post was entirely a misrepresentation, one that others on here could see if they could only get passed themselves for a second. Watching people worship each other to compensate for their inconsistencies is a pitiful site.

When you kill yourself you are determining your own fate and are therefore NOT trusting in God's plan for you.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

and again: Exodus 1:13- Thou shalt not murder (murder obviously being killing someone else or yourself) Taking human life is one in the same. Murder is murder, there are no two different ways about it.

The good book says differently, so until God says differently I don't need to hear blasphemy from any more false prophets in the world than there already are. Interpret it and or skew it's readings to your likings...but do not dare shove your fallicious interpretation of God's word down my throat, if you please.

Matthew 7:15- Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

[Shinra Executive]

Do you want to know why *I* agree with her posts? It's because they are based on SCRIPTURE, not someone's misinterpretation of the Bible, that's why. You don't like that, get over it. This is a debate forum, people are going to take sides, and they aren't always going to fall on the side of someone who likes to miscronstrue and SKEW the facts to their own personal liking.

I haven't misconstrued anything. Your friend cannot even get down the basic theological concept of fate. If you can't even get those type of things down, you are extremely limited on biblical interpretation.

The fact of the matter its that you don't know jack about theology, and neither does your friend. Post anything either of you have stated in a theology forum, and you'll get pummeled, which is quite different then someone liking your post just because they don't like the other person.
Like a bunch of children.

I'm so glad you've studied theology for years, but the idea behind being CHRISTIAN is that the average person can be baptized, believe, and read the Bible so that they can be saved...it doesn't take a Theology major to be a Christian. Years and years of studying does not erase God's word as it was written in his book...so patronization is going to get you nowhere fast.

A physics book is written, doesn't mean a single glance makes you Einstein. So making completely retarded statements such as what you just issued will get you nowhere fast.

Really? That's a little hypocritical of you, no? Respect is earned. She's passionate about what she believes in and doesn't have to result to low blows and disrespectful posts. She ASKED you to read the entirety of hers.

How does she know if I didn't read hers? I did, I just didn't want to insult her intelligence in issuing how laughably errant her post was. She dared to transgress against me n shit, so she has nobody to blame but herself for me telling it.

When you kill yourself you are determining your own fate and are therefore NOT trusting in God's plan for you.

See, you don't even know what the hell fate is either. The plan was for you to commit suicide, or do you not understand the definition of fate? The subject is obviously well beyond you or hrs current understanding.
But you all don't want to take some self accountability, you all want to sit here and kiss each others asses, tell each other you all are right when your not because of being butt hurt on my social beliefs on liberalism n shit. Get over yourselves and GROW UP.

 

[Dionysos]

Please let us refrain from personal attacks. It is possible to debate without drama, and that would then be more constructive and beneficial.

 

[Shinra Executive]

@The Grinch
I'm just going to continue with my assessment on the subject. I simply made an observation on what other posters have been doing on here. I guess I should have expected what I was going to get in return was the same nonsense.




Suicide is a fate. It is not rejecting fate, or prohibiting fate, but a fate- God is omnipotent; He is the Logos, or logic, of reality. What makes anyone think you can escape or undo fate? You can't.
Once you begin to understand these sort of concepts, you will begin to interpret the Bible in an entirely different way.
The correct way.

So, all arguments pertaining to suicide messing up plans or fate is fallacious.

 

[coffeecup]

Well...I think there won't be any kind of consensus between the two groups arguing here given that you're both adopting the two competing views when it comes to resolving the "paradox of free will." One side is saying free will gives us the ability to go against God's plan while the other says God's omnipotence essentially nullifies any idea of free will since our actions are already a part of this plan. This paradox has always been a problem since way back, and there are multiple competing theories on how to resolve this issue.

As for suicide, it's a tricky question. Now I'm not a theologian, but I would assume that whether or not suicide is allowed would have to necessarily hinge upon the underlying reason for the person's death. If you're escaping something akin to misfortune or pain, then it's likely a sin. That's based off my reading of the entire book of Job. Whereas if you're faced with the option of disavowing your faith or killing yourself, then the latter is probably the only option available to you. Even though there has been writings covering the relation between suicide and the murder of self or God's temple or whatever, it really seems like the author had the conclusion in mind beforehand then rationalized his way to it (which happens a lot in philosophical writings...:/). But given the basic flavor of contemporary Christianity, I would be surprised to find suicide or euthanasia to be a sinless act.

 

[Harlequin]

It's all kickin off in this thread!

The fact of the matter its that you don't know jack about theology, and neither does your friend. Post anything either of you have stated in a theology forum, and you'll get pummeled, which is quite different then someone liking your post just because they don't like the other person.
Like a bunch of children.

And what is it you "know" about Theology? Isn't it a study based on belief and rationale? Two very subjective concepts?

See, you don't even know what the hell fate is either. The plan was for you to commit suicide, or do you not understand the definition of fate? The subject is obviously well beyond you or hrs current understanding.
But you all don't want to take some self accountability, you all want to sit here and kiss each others asses, tell each other you all are right when your not because of being butt hurt on my social beliefs on liberalism n shit. Get over yourselves and GROW UP.

In my opinion your argument on fate is very apologetic way of dealing with sin. To suggest suicide was a part of God's plan (regardless of him knowing you would commit it) would be akin to suggesting tattoos and body piercings, theft, mass genocide, etc were all a product of fate too thus one is powerless and therefore blameless in the face of destiny. Hitler cannot account for the holocaust, it was part of God's plan right?

I believe we've all been afforded free will and with that free will comes a very personal responsibility when negotiating the trials of life. I believe human life is described as sacred throughout the Bible and man's body is his temple so by not only the virtue of the sanctity of life but also the personal responsibility one has in maintaining themselves suicide flies in the face of some core themes on humanity as described in the Bible.

Perhaps suicide isn't a sin but I don't believe that. Everyone has their problems in life be them physical, mental, economic, social, etc... but I don't believe it's for us to determine when we can't take any more. You don't know how strong you are until strength is the only option you have. From what I've interpreted from the scriptures throwing in the towel by killing yourself is a rejection of God's test, his gift and his grace. It's not necessarily unforgivable though.

 

[Shinra Executive]

And what is it you "know" about Theology? Isn't it a study based on belief and rationale? Two very subjective concepts?

Why don't you ask all the PhD theologians in the Catholic Church who guide the pursuit of biblical knowledge? These are the same type of people, all the way to the beginnings of Greek philosophy, who came up with everything from the Trinity to Purgatory to everything else that isn't explicitly noted in Scripture. They deduce these things from Scripture.

In my opinion your argument on fate is very apologetic way of dealing with sin. To suggest suicide was a part of God's plan (regardless of him knowing you would commit it) would be akin to suggesting tattoos and body piercings, theft, mass genocide, etc were all a product of fate too thus one is powerless and therefore blameless in the face of destiny. Hitler cannot account for the holocaust, it was part of God's plan right?

It all has to do with Saint Aquina's position on free will and predestination, and how they coexist. What you do is of your own free will, and yet your choices are nonetheless predetermined.
It is a dualism. God has preeminence over everything. It is just that simple.

I believe we've all been afforded free will and with that free will comes a very personal responsibility when negotiating the trials of life. I believe human life is described as sacred throughout the Bible and man's body is his temple so by not only the virtue of the sanctity of life but also the personal responsibility one has in maintaining themselves suicide flies in the face of some core themes on humanity as described in the Bible.

God allows righteous suicide, just as He allows righteous killing. The primary condition is that the prospects have to serve a greater good. Martyrdom, for example, is righteous suicide. Euthanasia is righteous suicide. The thing with euthanasia, however, is that the soul must be consecrated for the afterlife first. This is the official Church stance.
Where unrighteous suicide is a sin, it is not murder. Murder is an entirely different thing then killing. The soul will be judged by what they did in life, not by their suicide. That is why the Bible has nigh to say about suicide. For something so unfortunately common and dire, Scripture would have mentioned it. But it doesn't. It does, however, mention several accounts of suicide, some by people in agony, some by people whom are already damned. Such as Judas.

Perhaps suicide isn't a sin but I don't believe that. Everyone has their problems in life be them physical, mental, economic, social, etc... but I don't believe it's for us to determine when we can't take any more. You don't know how strong you are until strength is the only option you have. From what I've interpreted from the scriptures throwing in the towel by killing yourself is a rejection of God's test, his gift and his grace. It's not necessarily unforgivable though.

People who commit suicide lapse into a mentality they have no choice or control over. At that dark hour, it's a bit absurd to say they should be put to blame for it. That is sort of the contradiction in saying one has a choice or chance not to kill themselves. It falls under what Saint Aquina calls 'invincible ignorance', which is the predetermined disposition of the person which only God can change. In other words, as I said, it is a fate.

 

[Squid]

I'm not very sure how a God who gave you 'free will' to do as you please can forbid you from anything, specially if it has to do with your own body.
And if you're going to go off what the bible and the scriptures say word for word then you'd better also start paying attention to the other parts like the bit about how eating pork and being a homosexual is an abomination. Because as far as I am concerned God hasn't come down and changed anything in the Bible.

 

[Shinra Executive]

I'm not very sure how a God who gave you 'free will' to do as you please can forbid you from anything, specially if it has to do with your own body.
And if you're going to go off what the bible and the scriptures say word for word then you'd better also start paying attention to the other parts like the bit about how eating pork and being a homosexual is an abomination. Because as far as I am concerned God hasn't come down and changed anything in the Bible.

Eating pork, among many other things, are part of the Old Law, not the New Covenant. Notice that the Bible is split into two parts.
Homosexuality is noted still in the NT as being mortally sinful. So that still stands. Things like the Ten Commandments still stand as well, as it is commanded in the New Covenant.
Think of it all as a paradigm shift. Mosaic Law was harsh, and was a slavery that Jesus freed us from. The Apostle Paul explicitly states this.

Obviously, you do not know the Bible so well.

 

[greenyxi]

Can we get back to the topic rather than posting to bash each other? This is warning number 2...

 

[The Master]

Killing another human being in any way, even yourself, I believe is sinful. God doesn't WANT you to suffer, but I believe that the 'suffering' some people feel before they die is a punishment for unforgiven sins. Killing yourself or having someone else kill you is a way to get OUT of this punishment, and THAT'S why it's sinful to me...

 

[Harlequin]

Please don't delete this I'm writing up a response it's just taking a while and I feel the need to respond to this immediately:

Obviously, you do not know the Bible so well.

It's unlikely she would because she's not a Christian. Why do you have to be so arrogant? I admire your passion in what you believe but I'm ashamed of the way you alienate people from Christianity with your hostility.

 

[Squid]

Eating pork, among many other things, are part of the Old Law, not the New Covenant. Notice that the Bible is split into two parts.
Homosexuality is noted still in the NT as being mortally sinful. So that still stands. Things like the Ten Commandments still stand as well, as it is commanded in the New Covenant.
Think of it all as a paradigm shift. Mosaic Law was harsh, and was a slavery that Jesus freed us from. The Apostle Paul explicitly states this.

Obviously, you do not know the Bible so well.

I definitely do not know the bible as much as a christian person would. I don't read it. But I do know bits and pieces about it. And I do know that some (not all!!) Christians can be a bit hypocritical about it and will follow only what they feel like, then will preach anyway.

Either way, I feel that a loving God would not want people to suffer, and if someone feels that they have no way out of a situation and end up taking their own life, as tragic as that is, God would still welcome them into heaven. They were given free will by him apparently. They should be able to do what they need to do in life. I think suicide is a shitty thing but sometimes people just feel like theres no other way and why would a loving god punish people for that? It kinda makes no sense to me.

But why would a loving god create things like sickness (which would make someone to want to be euthanised) and the like anyway. it's just a bit odd.