FullmetalHeart20
Chocobo Breeder
Riiiight. Because Cloud could try to murder Aerith of his own free will. At least you admit to assuming stuff.
Dragon Mage Breaks Down The FF7 Plot (So You Don't Have To)
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FullmetalHeart20 said:
Derision is never a key strategy in gaining popularity.
First, I never said Cloud tried to murder Aerith of his own free will. That he was being masterfully manipulated by Sephrioth (a god, if you will, of mind-fuckery) and at the time, as far as I can discern, he didn't believe he even had free will. It goes without saying that people tend to abandon all rationality when they are pissed, and Cloud was exceptionally angry with himself after he handed over the BM. If you combine this with manipulation from Sephiroth, having a shattered psyche, and not even knowing if he was a real person or not, you have a pretty good recipe for a puppet. Cloud was dancing to the strings Sephrioth pulled -- not because of the J-cells, but because of all the factors I've already describe here and in my earlier post.
Please phrase any further questions with more careful consideration.
I really liked your explanation! I kind'a knew what was going on, even as a kid, but mostly not really, lol, if that makes sense, so this really helped. From Jenova's mix up as a Cetra, to the Sephiroth we see as the no.1 clone, to how Cloud even mixed up his memories...but I'm still wondering stuff.
1. If the Weapons were being created, why did the Cetra sacrifice themselves? Was it because the Weapons were being too slowly made like how slow they showed up in the game?
2. If Cloud wasn't being controlled by Sephiroth, why did he lift his sword up to almost kill Aeris? Was it because he knew that's what Sephiroth wanted him to do? Is that also why he gave him the black materia, too? Because that's what Sephiroth wanted, and he felt he was too weak to fight against him and win this battle? Because I understand you said Sephiroth was just able to manipulate him and make him think himself as weak by making him doubt his "reality" that he had built up for himself.
3. What about when Hojo sees Cloud and keeps calling him the failed experiment then suddenly realizes that Cloud didn't fail? What did he mean by that? When was Cloud injected with the J-cells and did they take affect? Or was Cloud always/usually propelled by his own strength? What did Hojo exactly do to Cloud and Zack in the Shinra Mansion basement?
4. About Cloud's identity - so he built it up himself? When and how? So he knew all along what his true identity was, but he basically hid it in the back of his mind somewhere long ago by himself to keep him going? I always thought that it was somehow the J-cells that made him have black holes in his memory because JENOVA was controlling Cloud's mind since he had Jenova cells in him and she was working with Sephiroth to destroy the planet and they were messing with him since he knew the truth and was fighting against them, etc. etc. So if it was just himself, that's why he tells the team later in that room in the highwind that it was just him pretending and being weak? Please explain this to me, lol. I was going to ask 'then what part do the Jenova cells play', but you probably already answered that and I should just go back and read. I'm just wondering if they just made the SOLDIERS stronger but Sephiroth was just controlling them like you said.
5. Also, why is the exposure to mako so relevant to these soldiers and J-cells in becoming strong?
1. If the Weapons were being created, why did the Cetra sacrifice themselves? Was it because the Weapons were being too slowly made like how slow they showed up in the game?
2. If Cloud wasn't being controlled by Sephiroth, why did he lift his sword up to almost kill Aeris? Was it because he knew that's what Sephiroth wanted him to do? Is that also why he gave him the black materia, too? Because that's what Sephiroth wanted, and he felt he was too weak to fight against him and win this battle? Because I understand you said Sephiroth was just able to manipulate him and make him think himself as weak by making him doubt his "reality" that he had built up for himself.
3. What about when Hojo sees Cloud and keeps calling him the failed experiment then suddenly realizes that Cloud didn't fail? What did he mean by that? When was Cloud injected with the J-cells and did they take affect? Or was Cloud always/usually propelled by his own strength? What did Hojo exactly do to Cloud and Zack in the Shinra Mansion basement?
4. About Cloud's identity - so he built it up himself? When and how? So he knew all along what his true identity was, but he basically hid it in the back of his mind somewhere long ago by himself to keep him going? I always thought that it was somehow the J-cells that made him have black holes in his memory because JENOVA was controlling Cloud's mind since he had Jenova cells in him and she was working with Sephiroth to destroy the planet and they were messing with him since he knew the truth and was fighting against them, etc. etc. So if it was just himself, that's why he tells the team later in that room in the highwind that it was just him pretending and being weak? Please explain this to me, lol. I was going to ask 'then what part do the Jenova cells play', but you probably already answered that and I should just go back and read. I'm just wondering if they just made the SOLDIERS stronger but Sephiroth was just controlling them like you said.
5. Also, why is the exposure to mako so relevant to these soldiers and J-cells in becoming strong?
I'm glad it cleared up a lot of things for you. Lets see if I can do the same with your questions.
The Weapons were being made too slowly, as you've already guessed. By the time they were ready, it would've been too late, or at least the Cetra felt that way. Also, they didn't so much sacrifice themselves as make a heroic last stand. Their population had already been decimated by Jenova and the virus it spread, turning people into monsters.
Think of it as hypnotism. You're not really aware of what you're doing. Cloud's mind was so broken, he had no sense of identity. If an idea was suggested to him, even an outrageous one, but if it was suggested to him (like Sephiroth did by saying Cloud was a creation/experiment/not human) and then if it was given credence with some persuasive evidence (Like Cloud not being in the picture at Nibelheim) then Cloud, who's mind and sense of personal identity has been shattered, would not be able to refute that idea because he's suppressed all his memories that could prove Sephiroth's accusations are lies. It's really difficult to understand, but if you think about it, you'll get there.
So, since Sephiroth knows Cloud can't trace a memory back to its origin, he can make up whatever history he wants, throw some 'evidence' at Cloud he knows Cloud won't be able to completely explain/deny, then runs off and lets Cloud do the rest. All of this is, like I said, because Cloud can't trace that suggested idea/'memory' back to its starting point. That's why, in the Lifestream scene with Tifa, it was so important for him to find a memory that they both shared -- it was an origin point that he could trace back to and extrapolate the rest of his REAL life from. Once the barriers in his head was gone, his real memory/identity came flooding back.
Now, you may ask "Why would Cloud DO these things if he wasn't being controlled? Doesn't common sense factor in anywhere?"
Which is a good question. But keep in mind, Cloud made himself into a SOLDIER in his mind. And he lives up to that role nearly through the whole game. For him, THAT is reality even though it is just a constructed dream in his head. For Cloud, memory -- false or otherwise -- is his reality. So if Sephiroth started making him believe he was nothing more than a puppet.... then Cloud would start playing that role. He would sabotage himself and his mission, because even if he doesn't realize it overtly, in the back of his mind he knows exactly what kind of actions would screw up AVALANCHE's mission; and so, because Sephiroth managed to make him believe he was a puppet, he did all those things you listed.
His attack on Aerith should be noted as being different, however. In fact, he should have gone through with the attack, but somewhere in his mind he realized it was wrong and managed to overpower his broken identity and check the attack.
This is tricky because of the wording used, but maybe I can clear this up.
Remember what Hojo's 'experiment' was. It was to make a 'clone' of Sephiroth and, by utilizing the Reunion theory, follow the clones to Sephiroth so they could find him or, failing that, at least find the Promised Land. See, Shinra didn't want to spend another 30+ years waiting for a kid, injected with J-cells in the womb like Sephiroth, to grow up again -- nor would they want that to happen since Sephiroth went AWOL and suddenly became a very dangerous weapon they could no longer control.
The results of this experiment results with the subjects having a totally broken mind, no self-will, and horribly weak from Mako poisoning. Cloud 'failed' because, unlike the others, he got away and he was never made into a truly proper 'clone'. However, he's the only one that actually MADE it to Sephiroth's body at the Northern Crater, so, in THAT sense, he was successful.
Cloud was injected with J-cells after he collapsed in the Nibelheim reactor, after he threw Sephiroth into the mako below. Shinra got to the town and found it ruined and covered it all up by rebuilding the town and rounding up the survivors for Hojo's experiment, to silence all witnesses. Cloud and Zack, both severely wounded, were brought to the Shinra Mansion basement and that is when Cloud got the J-cells.
As Cloud says in the game, the process for making the 'clones' is the same as the one for making SOLDIERS, with the slight difference that the 'clones' are totally submerged in Mako for long periods of time. The 'clones' are actually more like failed SOLDIERS, in a way, but yes we can see that the J-cells did take affect. Even Cloud says in game, "Physically, I'm the same as a SOLDIER." The reason he didn't end up like the 'clones' is because he managed to keep his sanity -- somewhat -- so his mind and thus his body did not break.
Zack fared a lot better than Cloud because he'd already gone through this process before, in a way, when he became a SOLDIER. Also, he has a very strong, confident personality, which is a good deal harder to lose/break than a weak, miserable one like Cloud's.
Well, I answered a good deal of this to your question 2, and a lot of this is speculation at this point because we don't REALLY know how he did it or WHAT he did, but I have a pretty good theory.
Also, I explained this pretty well in my first post, under section (FFS4).
Cloud built his identity when he and Zack escaped from Shinra soldiers. At the outskirts of Midgar, they were attacked by a Shinra army and Zack was killed. They left Cloud for dead. During this time, all we know is that Cloud's sanity retreated deep into his mind and was covered by the new identity of him being a SOLDIER, where the story was changed and he was the hero. To do this he had to lop off a generous amount of his real memories, but it worked and kept him from going insane.
His true identity was always there -- he just didn't conciously know it. It was buried. So yes, you have it right -- his identity was always there, it was just hidden. The J-cells have nothing to do with his memory; it's screwed up enough without needing any help! It's a common, but a wrong, fan theory that 'The J-cells did it'. The J-cells certainly didn't help, but they weren't responsible for rewriting his memory. Cloud did that himself.
I SAY that because NOWHERE in the game do you ever see the J-cells being directly attributed to changing memory except once when Sephiroth says that J-cells 'created' Tifa's memories of Cloud. But we know that those memories are actually TRUE and Tifa never had J-cells to begin with, so that means Sephiroth was lying.
Also, Jenova is dead. And it isn't coming back. The only thing controlling Jenova's body is Sephiroth, no one and nothing else. So Jenova (or Sephiroth) could not rewrite Cloud's memories. And besides, even if he could, why would he want to? The rewriting of Cloud's memories is what kept Cloud SANE. And Cloud has proven to be a big obstacle to Sephiroth. If anything, Sephiroth would leave Cloud to rot, not help him keep his mind together. It just doesn't track.
Remember my first post. Jenova is dead. It's mind is gone but its body is still alive, just dormant. Any mind could step in and start jerking Jenova's body around like a very dangerous puppet, which is exactly what Sephiroth did. I'd suggest going back and rereading my first post with all this in mind. It's a lot to take in, lol. Another read would probably answer all your questions.
That is a very good question, because I have no idea. They never really say, in the game or out of it.
All I know is that this combination of mako and J-cells, put in the RIGHT kind of person, produces super soldiers. It's never really explained how. Mako I can understand, since it's basically pure life force, and getting more of that is bound to make anyone stronger and just MORE of who they are.
As for the J-cells, I dunno.
ff1-10 said:
The Weapons were being made too slowly, as you've already guessed. By the time they were ready, it would've been too late, or at least the Cetra felt that way. Also, they didn't so much sacrifice themselves as make a heroic last stand. Their population had already been decimated by Jenova and the virus it spread, turning people into monsters.
Think of it as hypnotism. You're not really aware of what you're doing. Cloud's mind was so broken, he had no sense of identity. If an idea was suggested to him, even an outrageous one, but if it was suggested to him (like Sephiroth did by saying Cloud was a creation/experiment/not human) and then if it was given credence with some persuasive evidence (Like Cloud not being in the picture at Nibelheim) then Cloud, who's mind and sense of personal identity has been shattered, would not be able to refute that idea because he's suppressed all his memories that could prove Sephiroth's accusations are lies. It's really difficult to understand, but if you think about it, you'll get there.
So, since Sephiroth knows Cloud can't trace a memory back to its origin, he can make up whatever history he wants, throw some 'evidence' at Cloud he knows Cloud won't be able to completely explain/deny, then runs off and lets Cloud do the rest. All of this is, like I said, because Cloud can't trace that suggested idea/'memory' back to its starting point. That's why, in the Lifestream scene with Tifa, it was so important for him to find a memory that they both shared -- it was an origin point that he could trace back to and extrapolate the rest of his REAL life from. Once the barriers in his head was gone, his real memory/identity came flooding back.
Now, you may ask "Why would Cloud DO these things if he wasn't being controlled? Doesn't common sense factor in anywhere?"
Which is a good question. But keep in mind, Cloud made himself into a SOLDIER in his mind. And he lives up to that role nearly through the whole game. For him, THAT is reality even though it is just a constructed dream in his head. For Cloud, memory -- false or otherwise -- is his reality. So if Sephiroth started making him believe he was nothing more than a puppet.... then Cloud would start playing that role. He would sabotage himself and his mission, because even if he doesn't realize it overtly, in the back of his mind he knows exactly what kind of actions would screw up AVALANCHE's mission; and so, because Sephiroth managed to make him believe he was a puppet, he did all those things you listed.
His attack on Aerith should be noted as being different, however. In fact, he should have gone through with the attack, but somewhere in his mind he realized it was wrong and managed to overpower his broken identity and check the attack.
This is tricky because of the wording used, but maybe I can clear this up.
Remember what Hojo's 'experiment' was. It was to make a 'clone' of Sephiroth and, by utilizing the Reunion theory, follow the clones to Sephiroth so they could find him or, failing that, at least find the Promised Land. See, Shinra didn't want to spend another 30+ years waiting for a kid, injected with J-cells in the womb like Sephiroth, to grow up again -- nor would they want that to happen since Sephiroth went AWOL and suddenly became a very dangerous weapon they could no longer control.
The results of this experiment results with the subjects having a totally broken mind, no self-will, and horribly weak from Mako poisoning. Cloud 'failed' because, unlike the others, he got away and he was never made into a truly proper 'clone'. However, he's the only one that actually MADE it to Sephiroth's body at the Northern Crater, so, in THAT sense, he was successful.
Cloud was injected with J-cells after he collapsed in the Nibelheim reactor, after he threw Sephiroth into the mako below. Shinra got to the town and found it ruined and covered it all up by rebuilding the town and rounding up the survivors for Hojo's experiment, to silence all witnesses. Cloud and Zack, both severely wounded, were brought to the Shinra Mansion basement and that is when Cloud got the J-cells.
As Cloud says in the game, the process for making the 'clones' is the same as the one for making SOLDIERS, with the slight difference that the 'clones' are totally submerged in Mako for long periods of time. The 'clones' are actually more like failed SOLDIERS, in a way, but yes we can see that the J-cells did take affect. Even Cloud says in game, "Physically, I'm the same as a SOLDIER." The reason he didn't end up like the 'clones' is because he managed to keep his sanity -- somewhat -- so his mind and thus his body did not break.
Zack fared a lot better than Cloud because he'd already gone through this process before, in a way, when he became a SOLDIER. Also, he has a very strong, confident personality, which is a good deal harder to lose/break than a weak, miserable one like Cloud's.
Well, I answered a good deal of this to your question 2, and a lot of this is speculation at this point because we don't REALLY know how he did it or WHAT he did, but I have a pretty good theory.
Also, I explained this pretty well in my first post, under section (FFS4).
Cloud built his identity when he and Zack escaped from Shinra soldiers. At the outskirts of Midgar, they were attacked by a Shinra army and Zack was killed. They left Cloud for dead. During this time, all we know is that Cloud's sanity retreated deep into his mind and was covered by the new identity of him being a SOLDIER, where the story was changed and he was the hero. To do this he had to lop off a generous amount of his real memories, but it worked and kept him from going insane.
His true identity was always there -- he just didn't conciously know it. It was buried. So yes, you have it right -- his identity was always there, it was just hidden. The J-cells have nothing to do with his memory; it's screwed up enough without needing any help! It's a common, but a wrong, fan theory that 'The J-cells did it'. The J-cells certainly didn't help, but they weren't responsible for rewriting his memory. Cloud did that himself.
I SAY that because NOWHERE in the game do you ever see the J-cells being directly attributed to changing memory except once when Sephiroth says that J-cells 'created' Tifa's memories of Cloud. But we know that those memories are actually TRUE and Tifa never had J-cells to begin with, so that means Sephiroth was lying.
Also, Jenova is dead. And it isn't coming back. The only thing controlling Jenova's body is Sephiroth, no one and nothing else. So Jenova (or Sephiroth) could not rewrite Cloud's memories. And besides, even if he could, why would he want to? The rewriting of Cloud's memories is what kept Cloud SANE. And Cloud has proven to be a big obstacle to Sephiroth. If anything, Sephiroth would leave Cloud to rot, not help him keep his mind together. It just doesn't track.
Remember my first post. Jenova is dead. It's mind is gone but its body is still alive, just dormant. Any mind could step in and start jerking Jenova's body around like a very dangerous puppet, which is exactly what Sephiroth did. I'd suggest going back and rereading my first post with all this in mind. It's a lot to take in, lol. Another read would probably answer all your questions.
That is a very good question, because I have no idea. They never really say, in the game or out of it.
All I know is that this combination of mako and J-cells, put in the RIGHT kind of person, produces super soldiers. It's never really explained how. Mako I can understand, since it's basically pure life force, and getting more of that is bound to make anyone stronger and just MORE of who they are.
As for the J-cells, I dunno.
AH! I see...I understand now. But, as for the last thing you said, what did you mean by "RIGHT" kind of person? Or is the RIGHT kind of person just random? But it seems here that the right kind of person who would become a power soldier is one with a strong personality. Is that right?
ff1-10 said:
Great! Glad it cleared it all up. I like your questions, by the way. Very good ones.
As for the 'right' kind of person, no one is really sure. It's probably a genetic thing, where certain people (like Zack, Angeal, etc) are improved by the J-cells and not react adversely to them. HOW and WHY the J-cells improve someone, I'm not sure, but I think it won't work unless you have mako in the mix as well. In all instances that is known of a super soldier resulting from injection with J-cells (even Cloud, though technically it wasn't being done to him for SOLDIER) mako was always combined with it. WHY the mako enables the creation of a super soldier from the J-cells, I have no idea. There are many fluffball theories out there, so take your pick, because I can't give you any explanation that isn't complete conjecture.
A strong personality may indeed be the defining factor of success, since strong personalities overcome the effects from mako exposure. So it would seem that those with strong personalities would pass the test, but I'm sure there's certain physical -- possibly genealogical -- tests as well. But again, that ties into the question of WHY the mako is needed in the first place, and no one truly knows why. All we do know is that those who pass the test for becoming a SOLDIER were very few.
As we saw with Cloud, the results would be the same whether or not the person has a strong personality/passes that certain test. He's identical to a real SOLDIER in every physical way. So clearly the tests are not TOO discriminatory based on physical/genetic makeup because Cloud and Zack couldn't be much more genetically different. (Cloud's from the mountains... Zack's right next door to an ancient jungle.... yeah). So, as you said, that must mean the mako exposure is the hurdle that must be cleared, and strong personalities handle that no problem. I wish I could give you a solid formula for success, but alas, all we have are these few facts to make some conclusions from. :\
Thank you again, and I'm glad you like my questions, ha ha. Cuz I have another one? LOL!
Um, I always wondered how, if Cloud was so weak, he even managed to be part of the "grunt" soldiers or whatever those blue forces are called. I always thought that he probably snuck on just to be able to go back to visit Nibelheim or be with Zack and Sephiroth on a mission, but I'm guessing that's not true, that he must have made it on the rank somehow. What is the requirement for THOSE? Like, what is their job and duties to have made Cloud be so ashamed to be them? I understand that we fight them at the very beginning of the game, making them the weakest rank? Is that why? But they can't be all that weak or useless if thousands of them were sent to kill he and Zack? Or is he just ashamed because he just didn't become a SOLDIER, 1st Class like he promised Tifa?
Um, I always wondered how, if Cloud was so weak, he even managed to be part of the "grunt" soldiers or whatever those blue forces are called. I always thought that he probably snuck on just to be able to go back to visit Nibelheim or be with Zack and Sephiroth on a mission, but I'm guessing that's not true, that he must have made it on the rank somehow. What is the requirement for THOSE? Like, what is their job and duties to have made Cloud be so ashamed to be them? I understand that we fight them at the very beginning of the game, making them the weakest rank? Is that why? But they can't be all that weak or useless if thousands of them were sent to kill he and Zack? Or is he just ashamed because he just didn't become a SOLDIER, 1st Class like he promised Tifa?
Well, he wasn't strong enough to be a SOLDIER, but he isn't TOTALLY helpless. You don't get to the military by being a total flop. He was plenty good enough to be a soldier, just not a SOLDIER, the difference in letter size being important. Those 'grunts' (and don't ever call a real soldier a grunt, they'll kick your head in) are just the average or above-average person, while all the really GREAT ones went into SOLDIER.
One can assume that their jobs are just normal military things. Like any soldier in any army, really. Zack and other SOLDIERS are like Navy SEALS or any other SpecOps you can think of. Very skilled, very dangerous, and very few. That's the general degree in separation between the two kinds of military you see in FF7.
Cloud is ashamed of being a grunt because he wanted to be a Hero, like Sephiroth and Zack. He wanted to be the best of the best, the elite of the elite -- and instead, he's classified as just a grunt, cannon fodder and muscle for hire. Basically, Shinra said that he wasn't good enough. And that kind of statement really hits Cloud where it hurts since his whole life (it has been implied) he's been rejected by the townspeople and he blames himself for Tifa falling from the bridge when they were younger. He says as much in the game. He thinks that if he had been stronger, then he could've prevented her coma, he would have proved himself worthy to her, to the townspeople, and so on. Being a hero, in his mind, would get Tifa's attention (who he's had a crush on since he was 7 or so). Being the best has meant a lot to Cloud since he was very young, and when he finally gets old enough to go join the army, to be a Hero -- he's told he isn't good enough and swept into the ranks like so much cannon fodder. So that provides a crushing blow to Cloud and his self esteem and what little ego he had. Which in turn makes him more susceptible to the memory-flood effects of mako poisoning.
It's a pretty deep reason why he wanted to be 1st Class SOLDIER, but it basically boils down to:
1) Fulfilling his promise to Tifa to be her hero.
2) Become the best so everyone would like him.
3) Be strong enough to protect those he loves and defy the weakness that prevented him from saving Tifa when they were younger.
And that's taken away from him when he doesn't make the cut for SOLDIER. This entire desire of his (and it being thwarted) spurs the motivation and events for the entire game, really, right down to Cloud suppressing his identity (he didn't want to be a weak 'nobody' anymore so created an identity for himself that was what he always wanted), which weakens his memory and identity so Sephiroth can manipulate him, and so on.
roshidon
Hahaha, that's the best analogy I've seen yet. Thank you!
SiderealPassing
Ex-Soldier
This is excellent. I read your entire first post and it clears up just about every question I had about the plot. Cheers.
I have to say that I like how Final Fantasy VII has "bad" story-telling that relies on subtle hints for plot comprehension. It encourages people to pay closer attention to the utter depth of the overall story. It's brilliance.
I have to say that I like how Final Fantasy VII has "bad" story-telling that relies on subtle hints for plot comprehension. It encourages people to pay closer attention to the utter depth of the overall story. It's brilliance.
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Absolutely amazing. A great read that helped me clarify a few things. Quality work, much appreciated.
I notice little things here and there every time I play the game.
I assume that Jenovas true form would not be the humanoid form that we see her in during the flashback? It makes sense to me that she shapeshift into a humanoid to blend with the cetra and spread the infection more effectively? then as she is killed she can no longer shapeshift until controlled by Sephiroth? Lol'd at the thought of some woman casually riding a meteor into the planet. Wonder what the hell her true form looked like...?
I've always wondered how to get that Zach + Cloud cutscene though. Never seen it; only on YouTube.
Fancy doing the same with time compression by the way? That shit cray.
I notice little things here and there every time I play the game.
I assume that Jenovas true form would not be the humanoid form that we see her in during the flashback? It makes sense to me that she shapeshift into a humanoid to blend with the cetra and spread the infection more effectively? then as she is killed she can no longer shapeshift until controlled by Sephiroth? Lol'd at the thought of some woman casually riding a meteor into the planet. Wonder what the hell her true form looked like...?
I've always wondered how to get that Zach + Cloud cutscene though. Never seen it; only on YouTube.
Fancy doing the same with time compression by the way? That shit cray.
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iSmiff
Thank you very much for your kind words, it's always a pleasure to know that this continues to be helpful and is appreciated.
You are correct that Jenova's true form is not the humanoid one we see in the tank. There's no way to know what it truly looked like, and yes, logic follows that Jenova would shapeshift into a human form to infect the Cetra more effectively. And yes, when she was killed, there was no mind, no alien consciousness to tell the cells to shapeshift anymore -- so they merely stayed the way they were until Sephiroth stepped in and gave the body commands.
To get the secret cutscene detailing what happened to Cloud and Zack after Nibelheim burned, on the third disc, after Cloud and Tifa come back from the Lifestream, go to Nibelheim, into the Shinra Mansion, and go down to the basement. Head into the lab area and the cutscene will begin. I also suggest checking out the two clear tubes toward the right of the room -- there's messages written on them.
Ah, time compression -- You must mean FF8. I have been wanting to write something up for that but the copy of FF8 I have has no 4th disc, sadly. Until then, I'm afraid I cannot write a mega-post for it.
Thank you very much for your kind words, it's always a pleasure to know that this continues to be helpful and is appreciated.
You are correct that Jenova's true form is not the humanoid one we see in the tank. There's no way to know what it truly looked like, and yes, logic follows that Jenova would shapeshift into a human form to infect the Cetra more effectively. And yes, when she was killed, there was no mind, no alien consciousness to tell the cells to shapeshift anymore -- so they merely stayed the way they were until Sephiroth stepped in and gave the body commands.
To get the secret cutscene detailing what happened to Cloud and Zack after Nibelheim burned, on the third disc, after Cloud and Tifa come back from the Lifestream, go to Nibelheim, into the Shinra Mansion, and go down to the basement. Head into the lab area and the cutscene will begin. I also suggest checking out the two clear tubes toward the right of the room -- there's messages written on them.
Ah, time compression -- You must mean FF8. I have been wanting to write something up for that but the copy of FF8 I have has no 4th disc, sadly. Until then, I'm afraid I cannot write a mega-post for it.
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Interesting! Thanks. Need to remind myself to check out what the tubes say next time I play through the game. Although, I mainly do challenges these days like speedruns etc so odds are i'll miss it. What do they say?
And yeah, I meant FF8. It confuses the hell out of me. I get the basic concept but have no idea how they travel through etc.. That's what annoyed me about FF8, how they all knew eachother. Just thought that was a bit lame but this is about FF7 not 8.
Interesting! Thanks. Need to remind myself to check out what the tubes say next time I play through the game. Although, I mainly do challenges these days like speedruns etc so odds are i'll miss it. What do they say?
And yeah, I meant FF8. It confuses the hell out of me. I get the basic concept but have no idea how they travel through etc.. That's what annoyed me about FF8, how they all knew eachother. Just thought that was a bit lame but this is about FF7 not 8.
The tubes say, "Subject C" (it looks like a message has been scratched into the glass with a fingernail) "Let's get out of here."
"Subject Z" (it looks like a message has been scratched into the glass with a fingernail) "'Feeding time' -- that's our chance!"
Subject C is Cloud, of course, and Subject Z is Zack. Not very scientifically accurate, but it was done so you could recognize who the characters were. The books in the basement library also talk about how a Subject C was left to die and how Subject Z was shot and killed in an escape attempt outside Midgar. Only when you see that secret cutscene does it bring everything full to light.
As for FF8, as I said, I cannot say much since I've no fourth disc, sadly, but from what I understood, time compression was fairly well explained. Ever make a 'fan' out of a piece of paper, by folding it back and forth like an accordion? Well, imagine time to be like that piece of paper. When you 'compress' it in this fashion, it brings two points previously set far apart, much closer together. Again, imagine if, when making this fan, you put a dot on each far side of the paper -- they are far apart now. But when you fold it up, the distance between them is smaller. Theoretically, you can keep folding the paper over and over and over until the two dots share the same space (this is very in line with quantum physics). It's a very simple explanation of it, and it's been a while since I played it so it's probably not entirely accurate, but that's the best analogy I can think of off the top of my head. I really would advise you take this with a grain of salt since I have not completed the game (unfortunately) so I'm likely far off the mark. Until I get a complete copy of the game, I hesitate to make any complete explanation.
"Subject Z" (it looks like a message has been scratched into the glass with a fingernail) "'Feeding time' -- that's our chance!"
Subject C is Cloud, of course, and Subject Z is Zack. Not very scientifically accurate, but it was done so you could recognize who the characters were. The books in the basement library also talk about how a Subject C was left to die and how Subject Z was shot and killed in an escape attempt outside Midgar. Only when you see that secret cutscene does it bring everything full to light.
As for FF8, as I said, I cannot say much since I've no fourth disc, sadly, but from what I understood, time compression was fairly well explained. Ever make a 'fan' out of a piece of paper, by folding it back and forth like an accordion? Well, imagine time to be like that piece of paper. When you 'compress' it in this fashion, it brings two points previously set far apart, much closer together. Again, imagine if, when making this fan, you put a dot on each far side of the paper -- they are far apart now. But when you fold it up, the distance between them is smaller. Theoretically, you can keep folding the paper over and over and over until the two dots share the same space (this is very in line with quantum physics). It's a very simple explanation of it, and it's been a while since I played it so it's probably not entirely accurate, but that's the best analogy I can think of off the top of my head. I really would advise you take this with a grain of salt since I have not completed the game (unfortunately) so I'm likely far off the mark. Until I get a complete copy of the game, I hesitate to make any complete explanation.
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Ehh this has been bugging me for awhile now, how exactly do they feed Cloud and Zack, Did they take them out of the tubes to feed them daily 
? I ask this cause in Crisis Core they altered the story a bit, instead of Zack knocking out the "Feeding Guards" the tube just kinda opens and he falls out, grabs cloud, puts cloud in some Soldier Clothes and heads out of the mansion and into the fake town.
I figured Crisis Core would have covered this freaking loophole instead it slapped me in the face with a whole new escape. (My guess it was Sephiroth who let them out so he could further his plan but thats just a assumption)
(correct me if I'm wrong anyone been awhile since I finished CC)
NOW The Time Compression, Cait your pretty much spot on, the goal for Ultimecia was basically to Compress time so only she exists, as for the time travel that was a power unique to Ellie she sent people who she knew to view Laguna's past, and later on she was key for Squall and the SEEDs to actually fight and kill Ultimecia in the future, it was a Complicated as hell plan to use Ellie's power and let Ultimecia HAVE that power, once time was compressed Squall and the others we're able to travel to Ultimecias Castle and battle her.
Hope this helped, sorry I'm not 100% on it since It's been awhile since I've played 8 x.x
? I ask this cause in Crisis Core they altered the story a bit, instead of Zack knocking out the "Feeding Guards" the tube just kinda opens and he falls out, grabs cloud, puts cloud in some Soldier Clothes and heads out of the mansion and into the fake town.I figured Crisis Core would have covered this freaking loophole instead it slapped me in the face with a whole new escape. (My guess it was Sephiroth who let them out so he could further his plan but thats just a assumption)
(correct me if I'm wrong anyone been awhile since I finished CC)
NOW The Time Compression, Cait your pretty much spot on, the goal for Ultimecia was basically to Compress time so only she exists, as for the time travel that was a power unique to Ellie she sent people who she knew to view Laguna's past, and later on she was key for Squall and the SEEDs to actually fight and kill Ultimecia in the future, it was a Complicated as hell plan to use Ellie's power and let Ultimecia HAVE that power, once time was compressed Squall and the others we're able to travel to Ultimecias Castle and battle her.
Hope this helped, sorry I'm not 100% on it since It's been awhile since I've played 8 x.x
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I understood the concept just not the implementation. Thanks anyway, sorry for dragging this wonderful topic a tad off topic.
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This post is incredible DM, wow. And here I thought I knew everything about this game. I now will be playing this game again in light of reading this thread that you made. AND I may rethink my hatred for Cloud..... MAYBE.
Thank you!!!
Thank you!!!
This post is incredible DM, wow. And here I thought I knew everything about this game. I now will be playing this game again in light of reading this thread that you made. AND I may rethink my hatred for Cloud..... MAYBE.
Thank you!!!
Thank you for your kind words. I am glad this has brought new light to the game for you and I sincerely hope you overturn your hatred of Cloud; his story is too good to be spoiled in such a way. If you have any further questions after your replay, I'll be more than happy to answer them.
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I actually do have a question if you wouldn't mind answering for me. When you go to bomb the reactor that's a trap set by President Shinra, why does he say something about Cloud being in SOLDIER(I'm sorry I cant remember the full quote)? Cloud never was in SOLDIER. He was just a grunt in the army correct? This confused me a bit.
Thanks!
I actually do have a question if you wouldn't mind answering for me. When you go to bomb the reactor that's a trap set by President Shinra, why does he say something about Cloud being in SOLDIER(I'm sorry I cant remember the full quote)? Cloud never was in SOLDIER. He was just a grunt in the army correct? This confused me a bit.
Thanks!
I'd be happy to answer that for you.
To be clear, Shinra sees Cloud and says:
"...Long time no see? Oh... you. You're the one who quit SOLDIER and joined AVALANCHE. I knew you were exposed to Mako, from the glow in your eyes... Tell me, traitor... what was your name?"
Shinra probably had reports on the members of AVALANCHE beforehand, counter-intelligence if you will. It stands to reason he had some knowledge of the 'terrorist cell' especially one that walks, talks, and looks like a SOLDIER. Also, Cloud is still wearing Zack's SOLDIER uniform, he has Zack's Buster Sword and he fought alongside Zack for some time, so he can appear to be a very much like a real SOLDIER. A SOLDIER joining an anti-Shinra terrorist group would definitely get the President's attention. Since the President clearly isn't interested in who they are (The next line he says is "I can't be expected to know everyone's name, not unless you become another Sephiroth.") he hasn't dug very deep in their identities. He's going to kill them soon anyway, so there's no need to know more about them -- if he had ordered further investigation to their identities, he could possibly find out that Cloud is not a SOLDIER, but this is unlikely, since any Shinra reports of Cloud would have officially stated he'd died in Nibelheim, or on the outskirts of Midgar.
So as far as he's concerned, Cloud is just a rebel SOLDIER, and one he will kill soon at that.