Dragon Mage Breaks Down The FF7 Plot (So You Don't Have To)

Dragon Mage said:
I'd be happy to answer that for you.

To be clear, Shinra sees Cloud and says:

"...Long time no see? Oh... you. You're the one who quit SOLDIER and joined AVALANCHE. I knew you were exposed to Mako, from the glow in your eyes... Tell me, traitor... what was your name?"

Shinra probably had reports on the members of AVALANCHE beforehand, counter-intelligence if you will. It stands to reason he had some knowledge of the 'terrorist cell' especially one that walks, talks, and looks like a SOLDIER. Also, Cloud is still wearing Zack's SOLDIER uniform, he has Zack's Buster Sword and he fought alongside Zack for some time, so he can appear to be a very much like a real SOLDIER. A SOLDIER joining an anti-Shinra terrorist group would definitely get the President's attention. Since the President clearly isn't interested in who they are (The next line he says is "I can't be expected to know everyone's name, not unless you become another Sephiroth.") he hasn't dug very deep in their identities. He's going to kill them soon anyway, so there's no need to know more about them -- if he had ordered further investigation to their identities, he could possibly find out that Cloud is not a SOLDIER, but this is unlikely, since any Shinra reports of Cloud would have officially stated he'd died in Nibelheim, or on the outskirts of Midgar.

So as far as he's concerned, Cloud is just a rebel SOLDIER, and one he will kill soon at that.
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Ah that makes perfect sense. Never even took that into consideration. You're so awesome, thanks for answering my question! :hug:
 
I have more questions, as I play FF7 at this very moment, lol. Before Cloud and party head out to the Temple of Ancients, the Black materia is brought up out of nowhere. Was I just missing something in the dialogue or did Cloud somehow know about this beforehand (when it is first, I think, mentioned at the Gold Saucer hotel before they depart to the temple)? How did he even know, though, that this fit into the role of the Temple of Ancients?

Second, was the game just badly translated? Is that why most of the story is confusing to us?

Also: Who is the Sephiroth that we see throughout the game? His spirit, or...? A clone that is connected to his spirit/consciousness, therefore knowing his goals and what he wants? I remember reading somewhere in your post(s) that he is a clone, hence an old man saying he has the no. "1" tattoo. Is he the successor of Hojo's clones? If so, how does he know all about Sephiroth's plans and his behavior? How did Hojo program these clones "so well"? Where or what does this clone do/go when the real Sephiroth appears? Does he just die off like those other ones at the mountain when they all jump off the cliff(s) (the crater part of the game on disk 2)? Is he the one who killed Aeris? Is he penetrable/real? Because he just seems like a spirit who is able to appear anytime. But he must be real, like physically, right, if Hojo used the survivors of Nibelheim? But then who are the clones at the crater? There were so many of them.

- Why is it that the Sephiroth clone at Temple of the Ancients looks like there's another clone whirling with his body when he is talking to you in the room with the murals? Did Cloud know that, if he indeed was a clone, that this was just a clone of Sephiroth? Could the real Sephiroth talk to and hear back from Cloud through this clone "1" guy? How?

Oh, yeah, and one more thing: the "spirit bodies" of the Ancients inside the temple. Why do they look like that? Is that beige-top looking thing their head or a hat? Could you explain more about them? Does that mean that the Ancients looked a certain way? Or had a certain way about them? I know that Aeris and her mom don't look like that, but...why do they (the spirit bodies)?
 
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ff1-10, Apologies for the late reply. My laptop has died and I am struggling to find a replacement.

As for your first question, I do believe Aerith mentioned the Black Materia earlier. Hmmm. I'm not quite sure what part of the game you are referring to. Can you give me a quote, even a partial one? I'm afraid I need a little more information about the exact moment you're referencing to fully answer your question.

And yes, the game was poorly translated in many respects. Take 'clone' for example. When most people think of a clone, they think of an exact duplicate -- but the 'clones' in the game are not duplicates in any way. It was the closest approximation to describe them, really and not a bad decision to use that word either. They are not clones but more like... slap-dash imitations. 'Imitations' would be a good word and I don't know why they chose that instead -- probably because 'clone' has a sense of cold, horrific scientific callousness that Hojo embodies so well.

Also, it isn't just you -- the game was specifically written to be ambiguous. In fact, they decided to do the opposite with FF8, which is why that game explains things so clearly and precisely. It was meant to be the inverse of 7. So FF7 was meant to confuse, it was meant to make you wonder what was going on and how and why things were happening. In a way, you are very much in Cloud's head when playing the game -- you don't know what's going on, what's real or not, who's telling the truth or lying; it's all very confusing. Like our main character, you have to figure things out, sort out who is who and what is what with the information you find, all through Cloud's eyes. FF7 is brilliantly written in how it so easily makes Cloud's journey your journey as well.

As I said in the start of the thread, the writers also knew that when you enter an unfamiliar realm (like the game) you automatically take whatever is told to you as pure truth. Usually that's the way the rules of the game world and thus the plot are explained with no confusion and this is fine -- but FF7 turns that common practice on its head. It appears to follow this convention then starts contradicting everything you "know" quite early in the story. So, while you're still learning about and exploring this world, you're given contradicting information about it as well. You have to sort out truth from fiction, just like Cloud. The story engages you in the character's plight flawlessly, which makes FF7 one of the best games made in my opinion.

ff1-10 said:
Also: Who is the Sephiroth that we see throughout the game? His spirit, or...? A clone that is connected to his spirit/consciousness, therefore knowing his goals and what he wants? I remember reading somewhere in your post(s) that he is a clone, hence an old man saying he has the no. "1" tattoo. Is he the successor of Hojo's clones? If so, how does he know all about Sephiroth's plans and his behavior? How did Hojo program these clones "so well"? Where or what does this clone do/go when the real Sephiroth appears? Does he just die off like those other ones at the mountain when they all jump off the cliff(s) (the crater part of the game on disk 2)? Is he the one who killed Aeris? Is he penetrable/real? Because he just seems like a spirit who is able to appear anytime. But he must be real, like physically, right, if Hojo used the survivors of Nibelheim? But then who are the clones at the crater? There were so many of them.

- Why is it that the Sephiroth clone at Temple of the Ancients looks like there's another clone whirling with his body when he is talking to you in the room with the murals? Did Cloud know that, if he indeed was a clone, that this was just a clone of Sephiroth? Could the real Sephiroth talk to and hear back from Cloud through this clone "1" guy? How?
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Ah, I would advise you re-read the first post -- it is a lot of information to process in a very short time, so a few reads are almost necessary. However, I'll give a brief explanation here.

The Sephiroth you see throughout the game is not a clone, nor is it the real Sephiroth -- it is Jenova's dead body that has been shape-shifted to look like Sephiroth but his actual body is at the Northern Crater. How he controls Jenova is never made quite clear, but one can assume that he's projecting his mind into Jenova's body or is merely using the Lifestream to control the body. I can't be any clearer than that -- it's all fan conjecture at that point, but what we do know is that he is controlling Jenova's body. When he 'activated' her body at Shinra HQ (the part where the characters were escaping after being captured trying to rescue Aerith) he immediately made the body shape-shift to assume his appearance.

Recall that Jenova's body is like The Thing from the movie/short story. Every cell of its body is capable of incredible permutation and the creature can consciously reallocate and reorganize its cells to whatever shape it wants.

The 'clones' you see throughout the game are actually the survivors of Nibelheim. After Sephiroth went rogue and destroyed the town, Cloud killed him by throwing him into the boiling Mako in the depths of the reactor. Sephiroth's body was dead but his mind continued on, as they all do when they return to the Lifestream. This enabled Sephiroth to control Jenova's body seven years later. When Shinra arrived, the found the town in ruins with almost everyone dead. They decided to hush it all up -- one can only imagine the kind of panic and danger that would come from anyone learning that the most powerful SOLDIER in the world went AWOL. Sephiroth was vital to winning the war in Wutai -- imagine what might happen if Wutai learned that Shinra's greatest weapon had turned against them.

Since Shinra could't find Sephiroth's body and they probably never imagined he would've been defeated by an untrained grunt like Cloud, they presumed he was still out there while telling the newspapers that he had died. They needed a way to find Sephiroth, fast -- they couldn't wait another 30 years or so for an unborn child injected with Jenova-cells (as Sephiroth was) to grow. Besides, that could just be doubling their problems. Instead, Hojo was given the survivors of Nibelheim -- including Cloud and Zack -- to make a kind of bloodhound to find Sephiroth. The process they went through isn't all that different from the process to make SOLDIERS -- they are injected with J-cells and dosed with Mako. SOLDIERS are only lightly exposed, however. The survivors were massively dosed with both, resulting in Mako poisoning. That is why the clones wander around mumbling and appearing very sick -- they've lost their minds and are slave to an urge they don't understand.

Now, how were the clones supposed to find Sephiroth? What kind of 'bloodhounds' were they supposed to be? This all has to do with the Reunion Theory. Ever seen the movie Iron Giant? Take a glance at it on wikipedia if you haven't but (sorry to spoil the ending) at the end you see the robot sending out a signal to all the scattered pieces of it's body and all the pieces are slowly coming back together. Another movie analogy would be the T-1000 from Terminator 2, where it gets shattered near the end but all the pieces of its body come back together. This is exactly the same thing with Jenova's body. All the cells instinctively want to be 'whole,' unified in one mass. If Jenova's arm was cut off, it would merely 'call' the arm back to it. You could almost liken it to pack/herd instinct in animals. The cells want to be together. That includes the cells in the bodies of the clones -- and SOLDIERS. This includes Cloud, explaining why he has an uncanny sense of when Sephiroth is nearby. He isn't actually sensing Sephiroth, the person, -- he's sensing the close proximity of the main mass of Jenova cells. That is why the Reunion theory works the way it does and why it's aptly named 'reunion.' It is literally a re-unifying of all the scattered cells of Jenova.

So as you can see, Hojo didn't need to 'program' them. He merely poisoned their minds and bodies and let them loose. All Shinra had to do was follow them to find Sephiroth, who they thought the clones would follow. Only there was one problem -- the clones didn't do anything. They just sat there. They weren't tuned in for Sephiroth's body since Sephiroth technically doesn't have any J-cells in him, only some of Jenova's DNA. Only when Sephiroth 'reactivated' Jenova's body and started traveling the world through it did the clones become active. Until that moment, they did nothing.

With this info, you've probably had all your questions answered so far, but I'll summarize. The clones are the survivors of Nibelheim. Sephiroth used them, in a way, to draw the main characters to where he wanted them to go, because they were following Cloud -- and Cloud, even though he didn't realize it, was following the Reunion. He kills all the clones at the very end of the game in the Northern Crater.

Sephiroth's body is very real, but it isn't a clone, just Jenova's body shape-shifted to look like him. You do see his real spiritual body at the Temple of the Ancients, when Aerith touches the pool -- a ghostly Sephiroth appears and looks right at the characters, mocks them, then appears in the vision being shown by the Planet. That ghostly Sephiroth is the REAL ONE, the real personality/mind/soul of Sephiroth that is in the Lifestream itself. That is the 'second' body you see at the Temple in the scene you mentioned. The only other time you see his true form is when the Weapons are summoned. It's rather spooky because the characters believe that Sephiroth is far away -- when in fact he's literally right in front of them, just not in a physical body.

I never said Sephiroth was a clone though -- you must be thinking of something else. It's a very tricky part of the plot to understand, but as you can see, it makes much more sense than Sephiroth being a clone, given all the questions you have around such a theory.

Oh, yeah, and one more thing: the "spirit bodies" of the Ancients inside the temple. Why do they look like that? Is that beige-top looking thing their head or a hat? Could you explain more about them? Does that mean that the Ancients looked a certain way? Or had a certain way about them? I know that Aeris and her mom don't look like that, but...why do they (the spirit bodies)?
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Why do they look like that? I've often wondered myself. I have no idea. Artistic license probably. Maybe they were supposed to look like wizard dwarves (combining the stereotypes of wisdom and earth-loving in one form) but really I have no clue. That's just how the designers made them look. I do believe they are wearing a hat but the graphics are simply not sophisticated enough to extract much information from.

A good guess as to why the spirits look so different from a human is simple: Time. Over time, the spirits have just forgotten what they used to look like. They've even forgotten how to speak. They only have a very vague idea of what form they should take. Any concept art today would probably depict them as very bland looking, with nondescript features. It would also explain why they are so short -- there is only one two-legged animal as tall as humans (the ostrich) and if the spirits cannot remember what people looked like, they'd probably create a 'form' that was much shorter and compact, closer to what an animal would be.

That's all pure speculation, of course. I have no idea why they look that way and I'm guessing there was an explanation for it in the game but was cut for time/space. Your guess is as good as mine. The best reasoning I can make, based on what the game tells us, is that they forgot how they should look, just as they forgot how to speak. After that, it's anyone's guess.
 
AAHH, okay. Yeesh! Jenova sounds like such a creep. What IS she...? I think I remember Cloud asking Vincent the same thing in AC and he told Cloud that it's better not to know. I understand that she's this "thing" or "calamity" that fell from the skies, but what an evil thing to fall onto earth! Riding itself onto something toward the planet...*shiver*. It makes me realize what a cold world the people in FFVII live in... And, yes, you are right about how well the creators put us into Cloud's shoes. The moment I saw Zack pop out of the Shinra building in Sephiroth's "false" showing of what actually happened in Nibelheim to Cloud, I felt the exact same way Cloud did, which was scoffing at how pathetic and low Sephiroth could stoop to lie to Cloud and make pretend he was never there; like Cloud, I believed in Cloud's story. But when the truth came out, I was as stunned as Cloud was. I never realized that view point of the game until you said that.
 
ff1-10 said:
AAHH, okay. Yeesh! Jenova sounds like such a creep. What IS she...?
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Im not even sure it's a she :P. A female was probably just the form it took to blend in with the Cetra and infect them without being discovered. Its conciousness was probably killed whilst in that form hence why it remained in that form. It's an alien, that's all we know for sure. What it's true, natural form is; nobody knows.

Sorry, I realise this isn't iSmiff Breaks Down the FF7 Plot (So You don't have to).. :P
 
ff1-10 said:
AAHH, okay. Yeesh! Jenova sounds like such a creep. What IS she...? I think I remember Cloud asking Vincent the same thing in AC and he told Cloud that it's better not to know. I understand that she's this "thing" or "calamity" that fell from the skies, but what an evil thing to fall onto earth! Riding itself onto something toward the planet...*shiver*. It makes me realize what a cold world the people in FFVII live in... And, yes, you are right about how well the creators put us into Cloud's shoes. The moment I saw Zack pop out of the Shinra building in Sephiroth's "false" showing of what actually happened in Nibelheim to Cloud, I felt the exact same way Cloud did, which was scoffing at how pathetic and low Sephiroth could stoop to lie to Cloud and make pretend he was never there; like Cloud, I believed in Cloud's story. But when the truth came out, I was as stunned as Cloud was. I never realized that view point of the game until you said that.
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iSmiff said:
Im not even sure it's a she :P. A female was probably just the form it took to blend in with the Cetra and infect them without being discovered. Its conciousness was probably killed whilst in that form hence why it remained in that form. It's an alien, that's all we know for sure. What it's true, natural form is; nobody knows.

Sorry, I realise this isn't iSmiff Breaks Down the FF7 Plot (So You don't have to).. :P
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Agan, apologies for responding so late, my computer issue is still a problem. No worries at all iSmiff, I'm glad you answered and you are spot on as usual. And thank you for your praise, as always. :)

iSmiff is correct, Jenova technically isn't a 'she'. A more correct term would be 'it', since that's the closest to gender-neutral English really has. iSmiff's explanation is pretty much what I would have said. When it originally took on a form after coming to the planet, it chose a female one. There could be several reasons why, the most obvious being that a feminine form doesn't appear as threatening, thus deceiving the Cetra. It's consciousness was indeed killed while it was in that form, which is why it didn't change. It's true form is a mystery.

Yes, it's quite impressive how masterfully you are manipulated to viewing everything through Cloud's eyes, isn't it? Perfectly done, and you don't even realize it. I did the same as you when I first played it, as I think many have. Unquestionably a brilliantly written game. Go back and replay it with all this in mind and you'll be saying "Oooh, so THAT'S why it was like that!" about every ten minutes. I've done it often enough myself.
 
read this again ; ) still wonderful!

hey have you read Squall of SeeD's version too? its practically the same, but he includes the LTD in his.
 
Thank you kindly, NTSH. :)

I have not read his, no -- a link perhaps?

Ah, I went to great lengths to avoid the LTD in my explanation. It really doesn't have much bearing on the plot mechanics in any case.
 
This is a very in-depth explanation and I don't know if you'll see this, but thanks for the effort you've put in. I always knew that Sephiroth wasn't a Cetra (Aerith doesn't have insane human strength) and I can empathise with those who played FF7 first. However, this makes me not want to play FF7 because of what you said about it lol, I'm easily creeped out by mysteries where a majority of people die and the evidence points to someone that shouldn't be alive.

I think I can appreciate the reason behind fans not liking the spin-offs, the plot is even thicker and more tangled than a forest of thorns!
 
Arrow Storm said:
This is a very in-depth explanation and I don't know if you'll see this, but thanks for the effort you've put in. I always knew that Sephiroth wasn't a Cetra (Aerith doesn't have insane human strength) and I can empathise with those who played FF7 first. However, this makes me not want to play FF7 because of what you said about it lol, I'm easily creeped out by mysteries where a majority of people die and the evidence points to someone that shouldn't be alive.

I think I can appreciate the reason behind fans not liking the spin-offs, the plot is even thicker and more tangled than a forest of thorns!
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Thank you Arrow Storm! I'm glad to see this is still helping out folks and always shedding new light on the game and thank you for all your kind words!

Alas, I know that it can seem intimidating but let me assure you: It certainly look intimidating when it's all laid out like this. It boggles the mind and often makes one wonder "How in the hell did they plan all of this ahead of time?" But let me assure you, the game is a lot of fun and definitely worth playing. Various plot points are easier to absorb and process once you've gotten into a story that gradually eases you along to a big finish or new revelation. With the knowledge gained from this post backing you, you can easily play the game and be able to spot exactly WHERE they are trying to mislead you and where they are clouding up the truth. They mean to confuse you because FF7 was made in the day when you, the player, were still largely considered to be role-playing the main character. Cloud is, for reasons elucidated, very confused and so you as a player are also confused and have to work through the same troubles and doubts that Cloud does to find the truth. The game just makes you work for it is all, something which modern games sadly balk at doing. It's a story and mystery and adventure all wrapped up in package and it's definitely an adventure worth exploring.
 
Dragon Mage said:
It boggles the mind and often makes one wonder "How in the hell did they plan all of this ahead of time?"

They mean to confuse you because FF7 was made in the day when you, the player, were still largely considered to be role-playing the main character. Cloud is, for reasons elucidated, very confused and so you as a player are also confused and have to work through the same troubles and doubts that Cloud does to find the truth.
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It's just my opinion that not all of the plot development was deliberate. I may be cynical but it all just fits too conveniently for them to have planned that ahead of time - I think most of it may have but some of it may have just been thought of when holes in the story came to light during development. Theres nothing wrong with this; it works, but like I said; the cynical side of me finds it hard to believe that good a story was all pre-planned and they didn't wing it at any stage of development.

Also; I agree with what you said about Cloud. The reason the story works is that despite how many characters are in the party you feel like you are playing as Cloud and thus you take what Cloud says at face value; why would he lie? I think that in itself is what makes the storyline so special at times. You go through the same state of confusion as Cloud.

Fuck, I love this game.
 
Stannis Baratheon said:
It's just my opinion that not all of the plot development was deliberate. I may be cynical but it all just fits too conveniently for them to have planned that ahead of time - I think most of it may have but some of it may have just been thought of when holes in the story came to light during development. Theres nothing wrong with this; it works, but like I said; the cynical side of me finds it hard to believe that good a story was all pre-planned and they didn't wing it at any stage of development.

Also; I agree with what you said about Cloud. The reason the story works is that despite how many characters are in the party you feel like you are playing as Cloud and thus you take what Cloud says at face value; why would he lie? I think that in itself is what makes the storyline so special at times. You go through the same state of confusion as Cloud.

Fuck, I love this game.
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You have me there -- many authors have stated that a great deal of fine plot details and nuances were not planned for but either 'just happened', 'fell into place,' or were entirely unintended and only came about through the zealous scrutiny of dedicated fans. *coughcough* Pre-planned stuff on this scale of detail tends to make doorstopper books like Paradise Lost which, while excellent, are extremely exhaustive.

I'm once again gladdened by your affirmation about the Cloud's viewpoint! It's something so subtle that it passes by many people. That "getting into the characters head" is what I enjoy most about FF7 as well -- and, alas, is an element sorely lacking in the recent games and is, in my opinion, largely the reason why people are so unsatisfied with the newer games. It's purely writing issues that can make or break a game.


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Good guide answered a lot of questions for me thanks for your hard work on it Dragon Mage I have a few more questions about the end of the game I never quite understood.

JENOVA ABSOLUTE- is this Jenova's body parts that droppped off to fight the party throughout the game all brought back as one entity by Sephiroth or what is left of Jenova? Do Jenova's cells ever actually die whenever a part of her is defeated by the party through out the game?

BIZARRO SEPHIROTH- if Jenova absolute was all of Jenova's cells deeated why does Sephiroth still have the shape shifting ability here or is it the lifestream's power even he is using?

SAFER/SAVIOUR SEPHIROTH- Is this Sephiroths real body revived and mutated by Jenova and/or the lifestream or Sephiroth still controlling Jenova to shapeshift again? How can he still be using her power if she was defeated in her absolute/complete form previous unless her cells can't die at all?

Finally I have not gone through any of the other extended games but was FF7's original ending meant to imply that Holy had wiped out all mankind to cleanse the planet before Advent Children went and changed that ending completely?
 
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I have another question!

Why does Sephiroth wait 7 years to reanimate Jenova's body and start wreaking havoc on everyone? Why not sooner?
 
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Roshidon said:
I have another question!

Why does Sephiroth wait 7 years to reanimate Jenova's body and start wreaking havoc on everyone? Why not sooner?
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I'll take a stab at this, I guess. I'd let DragonMage take it, but it's been about 5 years and he hasn't answered, for whatever reason.

It's been stated that the Life Stream is a massive river of thoughts, emotions, memories, and Sephiroth took a swan dive right into it with a gaping sword wound in his mid section. I would have to speculate, because speculation is all I have to go off of this, that it took Sephiroth those seven years to recover, to establish himself in the Life Stream, to consolidate his identity, rather then just end up a part of it.
 
caleraizer said:
I'll take a stab at this, I guess. I'd let DragonMage take it, but it's been about 5 years and he hasn't answered, for whatever reason.

It's been stated that the Life Stream is a massive river of thoughts, emotions, memories, and Sephiroth took a swan dive right into it with a gaping sword wound in his mid section. I would have to speculate, because speculation is all I have to go off of this, that it took Sephiroth those seven years to recover, to establish himself in the Life Stream, to consolidate his identity, rather then just end up a part of it.
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I'll second this. I would imagine that it must have taken a lot of energy to fight death. A fatally wounded Sephiroth had just plopped into the Lifestream itself, the closest thing to an afterlife in the FFVII universe. That he didn't just dissolve and become one with the flow of the Lifestream immediately is because he was immensely powerful (and probably helped by the alien cells within his body which could help him reject his fate). It must have taken a lot of concentration to overcome the pull of the Lifestream, followed by a lot of soul searching and planning.

Sephiroth couldn't do what we wanted to do without planning everything. It was likely more than just coincidental timing that he made Jenova break out of the Shinra HQ when he did (with Cloud and company present). Cloud would, unknowingly, feel he tug of Jenova and be compelled to follow.

So maybe seven years later was the right time with the right pawns in place.
 
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