Dragon Mage Breaks Down The FF7 Plot (So You Don't Have To)

[soldier first class]

Thank you, SFC! I'm glad it filled in so many holes for you. It's always a pleasure to know I succeeded in my endeavor to totally and completely answer any questions about the plot with that post.

Yeah don't mention it. If anything you did me a huge favor there. Now with that knowledge lets see how things tie in with the compilations and a potential new sequel to sum up the whole story if SE does such a thing.

 

[Ilyena]

Just a reminder guys, this is a discussion thread. Let's try and keep the off-topic posts and one-liners two a minimum. Thanks.

 

[JaeTM]

Wow this is phenomenal, thank you it makes it much easier to understand and makes me appreciate the game even more.

One thing though...

I think you said that Jenova had shape shifted to look like Sephiroth throughout the game, but then in the FAQ you said that Sephiroth was using Jenova. How could he use Jenova if his body was dead in the Lifestream?

Was Jenova using Sephiroth or was Sephiroth using Jenova. But then how could Jenova use Sephiroth if all it is is a bunch of cells with no host?...I'm confused....

 

[Dragon Mage]

JaeTM

Thank you! I'm glad it helped you.

I did explain the points behind your question in my post but you probably didn't read it closely enough. (I can't blame you.... all that cyan kinda melts your brain.)

I explained it at length early in the post, in (FFS6) and if you want read that section again. For now, I'll give you the CliffNotes version.

Jenova is dead. The body isn't what we'd recognize as living, but the cells are technically still alive. Only Jenova's mind is dead, the consciousness is utterly gone. Think of Jenova as an empty vessal, utterly without a soul or mind.

Now, to understand what happens, you must understand the metaphysics of the game. When a person dies, their 'energy' (we'd probably call it the soul) returns to the Lifestream, from which it originated. Their conscious identity, however, the mind, the part of you that says, "I am me" remains intact -- we know this because Aerith and Zack are dead but they still appear as themselves in the game and movie. So people don't just cease to exist when they die -- their mind still remains intact.

Just so with Sephiroth. Except Sephiroth wasn't content to float about in the lifestream. He was still trying to exact revenge on the Planet and he pretty much treated death as a temporary obstacle to that goal.

What he found in his exploration of the Lifestream, is that he could 'access' Jenova's body. Easy enough to do since it was sitting in a tank of mako at Shinra HQ.

Think of Jenova's body being comprised of billions of cells, and each cell is like a computer. It will do what you want it to, but you have to supply the energy (like a battery) and the programing (like software) before it can do anything.

Sephiroth found an empty vessal -- Jenova's body -- recharged the body and added in his own 'programing'. In this case, think of the 'energy' as mako and the 'programing' in him telling the body to shape-shift to look like him. Sephiroth was essentially remote piloting Jenova's body from the Lifestream.

Sephiroth was only able to do this for a number of reasons that I can only guess at.

1. He was in the lifestream and therefore was in the unique position to 'remote pilot' Jenova's body because it was the only body on the Planet that has no soul/mind/whathaveyou and thus can be controlled in such a way. Even coma patients still have a mind. Jenova literally doesn't have any such thing.

2. Because he and Jenova share DNA, I would assume this gives him a special connection or affinity with the cells.

3. It's friggin' Sephiroth. It's a Final Fantasy game. Explanations at this point are considered unnecessary! XD


So there you go. Sephiroth was controlling Jenova's body. Jenova -- as an intelligent entity -- had nothing else to do with it. Jenova's mind is gone. Only the body remains, which Sephiroth used as a kind of hand puppet to carry out his goals. Hope that clears up any confusion!

 

[JaeTM]

That makes more sense. Thanks for clearing that up. And yeah, I read the whole thing at once so I guess after a while I missed some parts.

 

[Alak]

I just want to say that I came into this thread expecting some sort of copy/paste from Wikipedia. I'm glad I was wrong, because this summary is gold! Thank you for taking the time to break everything down for everyone. If someone ever asks me in-depth questions about the game, this topic will be the first place I'll go for a reference. I also want to thank you for leaving out all the prequel/sequel stuff. In my opinion, the whole compilation thing really did a number on the FF7 universe. If anything, these side games/movies brought up more questions than answers (especially for those who indulged in these before playing the actual FF7 game). I'm really glad you stuck with the original content and I thank you for that. Reading all this really makes me feel like playing the game all over again

 

[Tifa]

Very well written post~! That being said, I do have some questions about the Sepiroth-JENOVA relationship. First, I'll post the related stuff from the FF wiki:

Once Jenova has completely destroyed a planet, it uses it as a vessel to travel through the cosmos to the next unfortunate planet. This constant destruction may have been going for millions of years before the beginning of Final Fantasy VII. Jenova's age is unknown, but since it can lay dormant for millennia if necessary, it very well might be older than The Planet itself.

Eventually one of the Remnants, Kadaj, manages to reach Jenova's remains, and with it resurrects Sephiroth. During his fight with Cloud, Sephiroth tells his rival his plan is to take control of the Planet, and use it as a vessel to bring destruction to the entire universe - just like Jenova had done before landing on the Planet.

In the film's climax Kadaj absorbs Jenova's cells, and Sephiroth exerts his power over Jenova to shapeshift Kadaj's body into his own visage, restoring him to life once again. Sephiroth faces Cloud and reveals his new plan - to taint the Lifestream with those dead of Geostigma to the point he is able to control it, and use the Planet as a vessel to travel space and find a new Planet for him to rule.

In Advent Children, in one of his iconic lines, asks Cloud what he cherishes so he may simply take it from him. Sephiroth is fiercely devoted to Jenova and her cause, even though her body serves as little more than his avatar. However, it is also stated that he himself is an agent towards Jenova's will.

So from what I gather, Sephiroth is both using Jenova as an avatar, and being used himself as well. I mean, his goal to travel the cosmos killing planets seems way too similar to Jenova's original plot/reason for being.

Am I wrong in thinking that or is the wiki mistaken somewhere along the line?

 

[Dragon Mage]

Tifa

This is the downfall of the FF wiki: The fact that it's a wiki. Here, I've been able to control the information so that what you get is (as far as several years have been able to boil down and determine) pure facts as to what happened in the game.

With a wiki, you get a LOT of people just waltzing in and rearranging things out of error.

So first, there are a few things in the quotes you provided that we actually cannot be sure are true. Maybe I can sort them out for ya.

First: Was Jenova's goal to wipe out life in the galaxy, or the entire universe? Did 'she' truly intend to use the Planet as some kind of spaceship?

Truth is, we don't know. And while Sephiroth claims that had been Jenova's goal, he's also completely insane and still believed that he and Jenova were Ancients -- which I've already detailed is untrue. So we can't really say he's the most reliable resource.

It's also incorrect to say that Sephiroth is fiercely dedicated to Jenova -- it's more accurate to say that he is fiercely dedicated to his idea of what he thought Jenova was.

Remember what I said about Sephiroth in the main post? How he was a bloodhound, bred by ShinRa to lead them to the Promised Land? He didn't like it. He knew he was being used, and cruelly at that. His entire life was nothing but being an outcast and a super soldier -- and a disposable one at that. His story is sad in that he is never regarded or treated as a human being and has never known any kind of a family or purpose that was truly his own.

So when he found Jenova, when he discovered its purpose in his own creation (the injecting of J-cells into Lucrecia's womb) suddenly, he had an outlet for everything he'd ever suffered. He had a 'mother' and he could now take up her 'purpose' so he could strike back at every indignity he'd ever suffered at the collective hands of humanity. It isn't logical, but then, he did suffer a total and irrevocable mental breakdown.

In short, he went nucking futs.

So Sephiroth basically concocted whatever scheme sounded good to him, claimed that it was Jenova's intent all along, and that he would avenge her by completing her mission -- and he conveniently gets revenge on the race that belittled and used him all his life.

But in the end, we can't actually know that destroying planets was truly Jenova's goal. I mean, why even land on the Planet in the first place? If the Northern Crater is anything to judge by, it'd be simple for an alien like Jenova to simply sling a few rocks at a planet (or just a real big one) until it dies from the wounds and then hop to the next solar system and do the same thing. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. I find it highly suspect that Jenova's goal was to simply destroy planets. It could easily have done that without ever putting itself in harms way -- which is exactly led to its defeat at the hands of the Cetra.

For a fearsome, planet-killing alien bent on destroying all the planets in the galaxy, it sure didn't seem to know how to go about the job. Did it?

No, I think Jenova's true plan was something much more subtle and much more insidious than anything so paltry as simply destroying planets.

So in short, Sephiroth is merely blowing hot air to make himself sound righteous. We have absolutely no idea what Jenova's motivations were, and Sephiroth's claim is very incompatible to what we do know of Jenova's actions.

Sephiroth is operating entirely for his own goals. Jenova's body was merely a tool to help him achieve them. He is never being used by Jenova. Ever.

Hope that answers your question! I do love answering these questions!


also: JaeTM, Alak Grimer

Thank you so much you guys! *preens with pride* I'm glad it sorted everything out for ya!

 

[Alak]

To add onto what DM said, the most important thing to remember is that a key theme to Final Fantasy VII is the determination of truth. Nearly every character in the original game has spoken a line that is false. The spread of misinformation or even the transformation of assumption into truth is a common practice in FF7. Unfortunately, most fans don't realize this and assume that every spoken dialogue by any given character must be a fact. Said fans then go onto the wiki and change it to what they believe is correct. Just click on the "talk" tab for each page related to FF7 and you'll find debates on what's true and what's false.

I've been visiting the FF wiki for years now, and Cloud's page alone looks drastically different than it did 5 years ago. Don't get me wrong, it's still more factual than what we'd typically find in a random FF7 forum. Compared to this topic, however, it doesn't even come close to describing the true nature of our game.

 

[Tifa]

I'd like to refute this claim right huuur:

Truth is, we don't know. And while Sephiroth claims that had been Jenova's goal, he's also completely insane and still believed that he and Jenova were Ancients -- which I've already detailed is untrue. So we can't really say he's the most reliable resource.

It's also incorrect to say that Sephiroth is fiercely dedicated to Jenova -- it's more accurate to say that he is fiercely dedicated to his idea of what he thought Jenova was.

I really don't think Sephiroth after falling into the Lifestream thought him and Jenova were Ancients at all. In fact, him thinking that would be really dumb, even if he'd flipped his shit. Now if he'd be in the Lifestream for that long and gathered all that knowledge, then there's no way he'd still be deluded enough to make the same incorrect assumption that Shinra did by thinking him and Jenova were Ancients.

In fact, I can't remember where, but I seem to recall Sephiroth saying something to the effect of him being beyond the Ancients at some point in the game. Plus, I think it's safe to assume there is some truth in what Sephiroth claimed to be Jenova's goal, since he's the person most like her what with shared DNA and bodies and whatnot.

I mean, there are at least some facts to back up his wild claim about Jenova travelling the cosmos killing planets since there's evidence that it's exactly what she was trying to do with Gaia. It isn't a stretch to assume the asteroid she collided with the planet was a chunk of another one that she'd destroyed and it would make sense with her wanting to use the Earth as a vessel to travel the cosmos and do it all over again.

Also, I disagree with your claim about Jenova being bad at killing planets. IMO she did a damn good job considering she caused the extinction of an entire civilization in a very very short time. And as testament to how good she was at it, this was a bad ass magic wielding race of planet talkers no less! Plus, they didn't really, "defeat" her per se, more like put a pause on the battle. So if it were another race with lesser abilities like say, the humans, I think Jenova would have easily destroyed the entirety of Gaia at that time. Pretty much she had to "fail," otherwise there would be no story.

Pretty much, I think Jenova and Sephiroth are one and the same by the time of AC since his goal is so much like her original intent. That doesn't mean all that other stuff you said about him wanting revenge is untrue, but I can't disregard something he said and then chalk it up as him being crazy when there's things to back up his claims.

 

[Dragon Mage]

I really don't think Sephiroth after falling into the Lifestream thought him and Jenova were Ancients at all. In fact, him thinking that would be really dumb, even if he'd flipped his shit. Now if he'd be in the Lifestream for that long and gathered all that knowledge, then there's no way he'd still be deluded enough to make the same incorrect assumption that Shinra did by thinking him and Jenova were Ancients.

Fact: Insanity never coincides with logic or obvious conclusions. That's why it's insane. Sephiroth could easily have found the knowledge of the Ancients in the Lifestream -- essentially, their living memories of what Jenova was before it killed them -- but it'd be a simple matter for him to deny what he saw, or blame the humans for being weak, or not understanding what it was they saw. Either way, we know that he thinks he's still the 'rightful heir' to the planet, since he has a habit of chanting that throughout the game.

And even if he doesn't believe it any more, then it still gives him a good enough excuse to continue his diabolical scheme. I doubt he cares, so long as he gets revenge on those he hates.

In fact, I can't remember where, but I seem to recall Sephiroth saying something to the effect of him being beyond the Ancients at some point in the game. Plus, I think it's safe to assume there is some truth in what Sephiroth claimed to be Jenova's goal, since he's the person most like her what with shared DNA and bodies and whatnot.

The part that you're referring to is that Sephiroth was essentially saying, he's exceeded the Ancients in power and ambition. They would never go so far as to absorb all the energy in the Lifestream unto one person -- he can. He sees himself as a 'man of the future' type figure to the Ancients, one that isn't bound by tradition or philosophy or anything like that (including empathy or humanity, which he would consider a weakness). He's going to become the next step in evolution -- a god.

If the Cetra were god-like, with their innate magical capabilities, then Sephiroth was going to take it to a whole new level.

Also, don't be fooled by Sephiroth. He snowed the characters pretty good, but it shouldn't happen to the players so easily. Genetic descent does NOT also mean genetic memory. I mean, just look at what he claims is his 'goal':

1. Destroy all humans.
2. Destroy the planet.
3. Create a haven on another planet.

The only one to benefit from all this, is Sephiroth. I can even draw the lines for you.

1. He thinks that all humans are responsible for the downfall of his 'race' (him and Jenova) because he read the mistaken ShinRa files that also mistook Jenova as being an Ancient. These same humans are the ones responsible for making his life a living hell and using him as a tool. He's pissed. He wants revenge. Simple.

2. The humans that "took" the planet from him and his "mother" will also lose what they have gained. He's going to destroy the planet out of spite, and to accomplish his third goal which is....

3. Create a heaven for himself, the so called Promised Land. He's going to destroy the humans and the planet they corrupted and he's going to establish a heaven somewhere else entirely, just for himself. ALL this, powered by his hatred and insanity toward the human race.

I mean, it's just so blindingly clear. Cause, meet effect. I see no way Jenova could possibly have the exact same goal as him, 2,000 years ago. His motives are just too specific to his personal situation to just coincidentally coincide with Jenova's goals. And remember, Jenova is an alien, with unfathomable powers and motives. We couldn't hope to understand how its mind worked.

I doubt a madman would be better off.

I mean, there are at least some facts to back up his wild claim about Jenova travelling the cosmos killing planets since there's evidence that it's exactly what she was trying to do with Gaia. It isn't a stretch to assume the asteroid she collided with the planet was a chunk of another one that she'd destroyed and it would make sense with her wanting to use the Earth as a vessel to travel the cosmos and do it all over again.

Um..... you're facts are a little jumbled.

All Sephiroth said is that Jenova would use the planet as a vessel. Okay.

So what did Jenova come to the planet on in the first place? Lets say an big-ass asteroid, which is still a vessel. I mean, I understand why someone would want to upgrade from a smartcar to a Hummer, but even so, all that matters is if the vehicle gets you from point A to point B. Why bother with the sidetrip? It just -- logically -- doesn't make sense that Jenova was doing the equivalent of grand theft auto.

I mean, we're talking about an ancient creature that's zooming around in space! Why in the HELL would you want another planet to spin your wheels on? Technically, a planet would be the worst vessel ever. It's slow. It has gravity. It gets pulled to other objects easily. And, of course, they tend to harbor life, which is exactly what killed Jenova in the first place.

Honestly? If I were an ancient, shape-shifting alien, I'd just stick with the car I know.

Also, I disagree with your claim about Jenova being bad at killing planets. IMO she did a damn good job considering she caused the extinction of an entire civilization in a very very short time. And as testament to how good she was at it, this was a bad ass magic wielding race of planet talkers no less! Plus, they didn't really, "defeat" her per se, more like put a pause on the battle. So if it were another race with lesser abilities like say, the humans, I think Jenova would have easily destroyed the entirety of Gaia at that time. Pretty much she had to "fail," otherwise there would be no story.

Okay, several mistakes in your quote here.

1. The reason I say it was bad at destroying planets is because I don't believe that was Jenova's intent. I think Jenova had something on a much bigger scale planned. A being like Jenova could destroy a planet easily. One, two, three asteroids at most. Sling those suckers like pool balls at a planet -- boom, it's dead. Easy as pie.

So that begs the question -- why didn't Jenova just do that if its goal was to simply kill the planet? Why would it ever put itself in harms way by trying to kill the sentient beings on the planet when it could easily wipe them out from orbit? Even if the Cetra were magically skilled enough to divert one asteroid, that wouldn't be a problem -- Jenova could sling the whole asteroid belt at the planet until the Cetra slip and one gets through. That's all it would take.

So no. The whole "Jenvoa's goal was to kill the planet" just doesn't fly with me. There's way too many holes.

Think of it like this. You are fighting a war. You find your enemies home base, their last bastion of defense. What do you do? Do you nuke it from orbit (just to be sure) or do you throw thousands of soldiers at it trying to take it?

Obviously, you'd just nuke it and go home. Smart. Fast. Very little mess to clean up.

And Jenvoa is obviously a very old creature. If it does indeed have a history of destroying planets, why doesn't it just play a game of Armageddon and move on? It's smarter than that. It should know better than to touchdown on the planet itself and fight a one-on-millions war with the indigenous guardians.

In short, I think Sephiroth is underestimating Jenova's plans. Maybe Jenova did plan to 'absorb' the Lifestream by using the black materia -- but to what end? Maybe that's just how that alien species feeds, by devouring entire souls of planets in one go. The point being, we can never know. Sephiroth is just conjecturing at this point. He may have the means Jenova was going to use correct, but not necessarily the ends.

2. Correction: Jenova almost wiped out a race of powerful magic users. In the end, they killed the alien invader.

3. Correction 2: The Cetra did defeat Jenova. I know this for many reasons as explained in the main post. But long story short, it just logically makes sense that Jenova's mind is totally dead. Gone. Condemned to oblivion. What the Cetra didn't count on was that the body would still be a threat. They couldn't foresee that someone could spiritually waltz into the empty vessel and reanimate it.

Pretty much, I think Jenova and Sephiroth are one and the same by the time of AC since his goal is so much like her original intent. That doesn't mean all that other stuff you said about him wanting revenge is untrue, but I can't disregard something he said and then chalk it up as him being crazy when there's things to back up his claims.

I see what you mean, and you have a very good point, but there are 2 huge things that put it into some doubt.

First off, there are some pretty big holes in Sephiroth's claims that -- when examined closely -- just make his reasons seem a bit dubious.

Second, for Jenova to control Sephiroth in any way, even to subtly implant its own goals into his head, would mean that Jenova is still alive in some way.

And that just makes a world of NO SENSE. It would ruin the logic and continuity of everything in the game.

For example, if Jenova was alive from the beginning, why didn't it just get up and finish the planet off while the planet was still healing? Why not initiate Reunion right away? More to the point, why have your mind-puppet cut off your own head?

And how about the Remnants, where do they fit in? Why focus on killing ONE human (Cloud) when you can just take him out with the rest of the race and the planet in one go? To a being like Jenova, a human is like a gnat. Hardly worth the attention.

At least with Sephiroth operating on his own goals and as an individual, everything makes sense. But to claim that Jenova was alive and making Sephiroth its mind-puppet, then everything gets thrown awry. Nothing would make sense any more. And honestly, the best evidence suggesting Jenova was always dead after the Cetra did it in, is the fact that it just didn't simply shuck Sephiroth's appearance and went on a full-out rampage, destroying everything and spreading the virus like it did the first time. With no more Cetra, it would be pie to wipe out humanity. It has nothing to fear.... so why would it stay incognito?

See? I just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

So, logically (and keep in mind that I'm merely operating on what I can logically discern here from the evidence given in the games) I can only assume that Sephiroth knows little to nothing about Jenova's true goals and is only operating on his own motivations while using Jenova's ambiguous intentions as a way to make himself the righteous hero.

Because when you think about it, does evil ever really think it's being evil? Sephiroth thinks it is his inherited right to take over the planet, that the planet is his by blood. Sephiroth sees himself as the redeemer, the sole sentinel for a planet that has been forsaken by the 'parasite humans'. To him, he's the good guy! He's the savior! He's doing the right thing. Jenova just provided a convenient excuse to grant him the hero's mantle.

Granted, he didn't see Jenova as a convenient excuse -- it isn't like he learned about it and said to himself, "Oh hey, here's a convenient excuse to make myself look righteous." No. Don't get me wrong -- he actually believes it. He thinks it's 100% true.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[Grimer]

I'm not sure if this was already cleared up, but what is the deal with the Black Materia and the white materia?

 

[Dragon Mage]

Grimer

Not too sure what you're asking. Can you be more specific? However, I will direct you to this page . My second post may answer your question.

Here's what I said there but you can use the link if you want to see it in context.

Quote:
Okay, so if Aerith needed to die in order to tell the Planet to summon Holy, what was the purpose of the White Materia orb?
This is a good question, but requires a little dip into the mechanics of magic in this game.

Materia is condensed mako, right? Mako is just the essence of the Lifestream, which we know is kind of like a "soul water" (if you'll excuse that horrible analogy) that also contains the memories and experiences of every living thing on the Planet.

Materia is full of the knowledge of the Ancients -- this packaged, travel-size form of knowledge (the materia) is what allows a person to use magic. The person itself, lets say Cloud, doesn't know all that knowledge. But the information in the materia itself still allows him to manipulate energies within the materia and focus them into a desired effect -- which is the spell. Just because he can use it, doesn't mean he understands it. For him, it's a thing of willpower, willing something to happen -- but the mechanism that makes that will turn into reality is very complicated.

Think of it as a person shooting a gun. The operation is simple -- you simply pull the trigger. But beyond that, that person has absolutely no idea how the gun works. All they know is this: do action A to get result B.

Technically, the spell and the knowledge to learn without the materia would take years and years of study to perform. But since all that knowledge is right there in the materia, a person can simply pick it up and cast the spell without having done a second of study. This also reasonably explains why the Cetra were such a formidable people -- in addition to being telepathic, they were also very advanced in magic, and the workings of the world (physics and metaphysics). They would naturally be the most formidable foe to Jenova and the default guardians of the planet. In the time frame when the player enters the game, however, no one knows how to cast magic without materia -- but it's strongly implied in the game that the Cetra could cast magic without the use of materia whatsoever, through the cumulative knowledge and wisdom of their all their generations.

But I digress.

Aerith needed the White Materia to cast this spell -- she does not know herself how to do it without that materia. The White Materia likely contains the knowledge of one person among the Cetra thousands of years ago, that knew how to summon up that desired spell. Aerith, however, does not. This spell is so immense and so powerful, that a sacrifice of sorts is required to fully trigger it. Why does it require a sacrifice? I have no idea. I couldn't tell you.

But Aerith needed the WM for the same reason that Sephiroth needed the BM -- because neither of them actually possessed and understood the mechanism for making such powerful magic happen. They needed to use the very rare knowledge left by the Ancients in only one materia (one WM, one BM) in order to cast their respective spells.

Does that cover what you were asking?

 

[Grimer]

@Grimer

Not too sure what you're asking. Can you be more specific? However, I will direct you to this page . My second post may answer your question.

Here's what I said there but you can use the link if you want to see it in context.



Does that cover what you were asking?

oh ok, so the materia was made by the ancients?

 

[Dragon Mage]

oh ok, so the materia was made by the ancients?

....In a sense. The materia is literally the packaged form of the knowledge of the Ancients. The same knowledge that allows for summoning fire out of thin air, or creating defensive barriers around yourself out of pure energy. It was made by the Ancients, but it wasn't like they manufactured them in a factory. It's the actual memories and know-how the Ancients had when alive, and got caught in crystallized materia in places like the mako fountain in the Nibel mountains. When that crystallized mako forms an orb, you suddenly have materia.

That's why Cloud and Co. went out to save the Huge Materia -- those materia were literally the compendiums of all the knowledge of the Ancients, trapped inside the crystal, literal gems of knowledge. The bigger the materia, the more it can store. That's why little materia orbs are only good for one spell -- they aren't big enough to carry more. (Granted, some allow multiple effects, like the seal or esuna materias, but those are really just variations of the same thing, just applied in a different way.)

Was that more what you were looking for?

 

[Grimer]

....In a sense. The materia is literally the packaged form of the knowledge of the Ancients. The same knowledge that allows for summoning fire out of thin air, or creating defensive barriers around yourself out of pure energy. It was made by the Ancients, but it wasn't like they manufactured them in a factory. It's the actual memories and know-how the Ancients had when alive, and got caught in crystallized materia in places like the mako fountain in the Nibel mountains. When that crystallized mako forms an orb, you suddenly have materia.

That's why Cloud and Co. went out to save the Huge Materia -- those materia were literally the compendiums of all the knowledge of the Ancients, trapped inside the crystal, literal gems of knowledge. The bigger the materia, the more it can store. That's why little materia orbs are only good for one spell -- they aren't big enough to carry more. (Granted, some allow multiple effects, like the seal or esuna materias, but those are really just variations of the same thing, just applied in a different way.)

Was that more what you were looking for?

yes, it was. I think that about wraps it up for things I was confused on. once again, thanks fr the summary and clearing the confusing plot for all of us.

 

[JayC]

I joined this forum today because I was thinking about how I love FF and have never actually searched for a forum dedicated to it.
I repped you for the original post.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to write out the full storyline. You structured it very well and were very articulate and concise in your descriptions.
FF7 is the first FF I've played, and it has to be my favourite so far. I've gone back to play it a few times but did not pick up on the storyline very well.
That's why this thread was brilliant for me! I'm amazed by the story and I feel like playing it again, now that I understand the plot.

Thanks again, Dragon Mage, for your detailed plot explanation!

 

[Roshidon]

Amazing theory that you have Dragon Mage. It really cleared up alot of questions I had about the game. I'm sold on the whole "shape-shifting" aspect of Jenova that I never really noticed before. Although, I have trouble believing in one thing: That Cloud would willingly give over the BM or beat up Aerith. I read this quote on wikipedia: " However, the alien Jenova cells in Cloud's body allowed Sephiroth to modulate his behavior," which leads me to believe that Cloud was in fact being controlled by Sephiroth. Any thoughts?

 

[Dragon Mage]

Amazing theory that you have Dragon Mage. It really cleared up alot of questions I had about the game. I'm sold on the whole "shape-shifting" aspect of Jenova that I never really noticed before. Although, I have trouble believing in one thing: That Cloud would willingly give over the BM or beat up Aerith. I read this quote on wikipedia: " However, the alien Jenova cells in Cloud's body allowed Sephiroth to modulate his behavior," which leads me to believe that Cloud was in fact being controlled by Sephiroth. Any thoughts?​

Yay! I'm glad it cleared up a lot of stuff for you!

If you read the section about Cloud and the Lifestream in my post, I cover this whole part about Cloud not being controlled in great detail, but just know that the FF wiki and wikipedia in general are very unreliable as anyone with a half-baked theory can add it there.

However, I went into this whole analysis just looking at the facts, and the facts tell me that NO WHERE is it ever said that Sephiroth can directly control Cloud through the J-cells. Sephiroth can screw with his mind, and since Cloud is especially vulnerable with a shattered psyche, he can make Cloud do some pretty crazy things, but can't actually control him.

Thing of what Sephiroth does as a suggestion, of the psychic/magic/Dungeons and Dragons variety. You can make someone REALLY REALLY REALLY want to do something, but you can't actually MAKE them. Just so here as well. Sephiroth CAN modulate Cloud's behavior but NOT because he's using the J-cells. He can do it just by planting doubt in Cloud's mind.

As for handing over the BM, refer back to what I said about Sephiroth screwing with Cloud's head and Cloud not knowing which way was up. Cloud thought he wasn't a person; that he was a failed test tube experiment with no parents and no friends, and everything he thought he knew were just implanted memories. But because of Tifa, we know this isn't true. Cloud, however, didn't know that. Let's approach these two incidents separately.

Handing over the BM. This happened when Cloud's sense of identity was as it's most fractured and totally screwed up. Sephiroth made him believe that he wasn't even human, that he was just a puppet! Remember what I said about Cloud living a dream in the OP? Well, Sephiroth knows this -- Cloud is just an actor, improving what he thinks he should be doing. All Sephiroth had to do was change the script and Cloud, not knowing any better about his identity or past, followed it unhesitatingly. Later in the game, Cloud even admits that it was his own weakness that led to the situation with Meteor. Because he wasn't strong enough, mentally and emotionally, Sephiroth manipulated him into do what he wanted. So while I agree, Cloud would never hand over the BM willingly, at the time he didn't think he even HAD free will. The whole game and Sephiroth's manipulation built up to that moment, and afterward we see that Cloud has complete mental break. Poor guy.

Beating up Aerith. Again, all of the things i mentioned above about the BM incident would apply here, but also factor in frustration and blind rage, and you've got him beating up Aerith. It's very likely that Sephiroth placed the suggestion of getting rid of the Ancient in Cloud and Cloud was acting on impulses that weren't truly his own, just implanted ideas. But either way, Sephiroth manipulated him masterfully, but his only real success in screwing Cloud over was getting Cloud to hand him the BM.

 

[Roshidon]

I see what your saying and hey that could be what happened. I guess we'll never know for sure.