FFVII: LTD Debate Thread

[slightly angelic]

PS.Yeah, I know what's coming, "But it doesn't say what feelingz!1!!" As if anyone who uses such a simple statement with "boy, girl, feelings for each other, live together," would mean some outlandish 'other' thing than the blatantly obvious.

Just curious, but what about this quote then:
"Although there's a lot to Tifa's character, she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times." ~Nojima; Reunion Files


Is this one blatantly obvious too(left by a man, clingy woman, hurt emotionally)? Or should we dare say "but it doesn't say what feelingz"?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh so we're talking about unaddressed points now? Alrite, just a suggestion here, before jumping on another argument, make sure to try to at least end the ones that came before and not leave the person you're arguing against wondering if you addressed his own points.

Well, when you make legitimate points, I will address them. However, all I've seen is you make statements which shoot your side in the foot moreso than the C/T side.

Most of you guys have done that to me. Besides, I'm not the type of person to change subject simply because you guys feel like it. In short, it'd be really nice to at least finish what you started before going on another subject. Thank you.


Just a suggestion.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't horribly mangle or misapply logical concepts such as Occam's razor.

Do you mean "confirmation" or "re-confirmation"?

A re-confirmation, though that is a rather akward phrasing, and I suspect in any other situation you'd not need feel the need to make the distinction.

Interesting how you use one's personal experience in an argument. Don't you think that's a bit flawed?

No, anecdotal evidence is fine just so long as you remember that that is all it is. I used it to highlight a point about real relationships by citing a common factor of real relationships, and added an anecdote on top of this.

I don't even know what to say about your interesting conclusion on women in general.

I was told that conclusion by a number of women, so I'll take their word for it for the time being.

If I'm included to that remark of yours, you might wanna at least try to finish the last argument we were in a couple pages ago. You kinda left me hanging there. I was asking where in the story did you get the idea that Tifa is insecure and how do you even know what she was feeling at that time?

From two magical things called context and parsimony. See, when you look at something like Tifa's question, Cloud's actions around the time it was asked, and the compilation as general, you try and fit the explanation to the best fit of all the data that requires the fewest additional assumptions. In this case, a moment's insecurity is the most parsimonious explanation. Explanations that ask if this is her asking for the first time ignore the intent of Cloud's words to Tifa at the start of CoT, the quotes about C and T realizing and confirming mutual feelings, and that Tifa is a lover in a mutual relationship.

BTW, is this another one of your conclusion on women as well? Or are you just referring to Tifa specifically?

I'm not sure why you wish to paint me with a mysoginistic brush, chance, but I'll assure you it's not simply about women. All people can feel doubt or insecurity and seek reassurance for their doubts. I simply referred to women doing such because a woman is the subject of the argument.

It might help if you direct that to a specific person. It's a lil bit "generalized" imo. Heck, what's stopping a random "cleris" from saying pretty much the same thing? Only in reverse.

Like this for example:

Why is "If you forget the way you were then, I'll be here to remind you" (said with a blush), considered romantic but "But I'm ... we're here for you" not romantic?--- A cleris to some random cloti in general

Just sayin'.....

The entire point of it being generalized is that it's an open question, as no one has answered it. On the other hand, it has been pointed out several times how "I'm... We're here for you' is about Cloud not understanding Aerith's dillemma, and pointing out that she can't be lonely, she's got AVALANCHE around to keep her company. Still, Serene is right. Her point was entirely ignored despite being asked of the assembly, as was the points of the short list.
I'd say the evasion of such is rather telling.

 

[slightly angelic]

Ryushikaze:

"I'm... We're here for you' is about Cloud not understanding Aerith's dillemma, and pointing out that she can't be lonely, she's got AVALANCHE around to keep her company.

"If you forget the way you were then, I'll be here to remind you" (said with a blush)

I'm sure you've heard numerous times from numerous Cleris fans that Cloud blushes in embarrassment because he knows internally that he'd be the last person to ever remind Tifa of her strength because he himself is the last person to ever have that kind of strength. Thus...

...this quote proven:

Why is "If you forget the way you were then, I'll be here to remind you" (said with a blush), considered romantic but "But I'm ... we're here for you" not romantic?--- A cleris to some random cloti in general

 

[llCHANCEll]

Ryushikaze

Well, when you make legitimate points, I will address them. However, all I've seen is you make statements which shoot your side in the foot moreso than the C/T side.

Guess I'll say something similar to you then...

I'd appreciate it if you didn't horribly mangle or misapply logical concepts such as Occam's razor.

Are we just relying on Ad Hominems now or can you actually back that up?

A re-confirmation, though that is a rather akward phrasing, and I suspect in any other situation you'd not need feel the need to make the distinction.

Just want to make sure. Re-confirmation generally means something was confirmed before.

What was confirmed before?

No, anecdotal evidence is fine just so long as you remember that that is all it is. I used it to highlight a point about real relationships by citing a common factor of real relationships, and added an anecdote on top of this.

It's fine as long as you "really" know what it is:

Anecdotal Evidence

1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity: the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy or untrue.

(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion from which it does not follow, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.

In both cases the conclusion is unreliable; it might happen not to be untrue, but it doesn't follow from the "evidence".

How is this helping your case again? Using anecdotal evidence to highlight a point in "real relationships"?

I was told that conclusion by a number of women, so I'll take their word for it for the time being.

Anecdotal evidence right? You'd understand if I don't take your word for it.

From two magical things called context and parsimony. See, when you look at something like Tifa's question, Cloud's actions around the time it was asked, and the compilation as general, you try and fit the explanation to the best fit of all the data that requires the fewest additional assumptions. In this case, a moment's insecurity is the most parsimonious explanation. Explanations that ask if this is her asking for the first time ignore the intent of Cloud's words to Tifa at the start of CoT, the quotes about C and T realizing and confirming mutual feelings, and that Tifa is a lover in a mutual relationship.

Yea, we've been through that.

Where exactly did it state that Cloud and Tifa are together as lovers? Or am I about to see a slippery slope from you trying to connect one event to another? Let's just hope you have ample evidence to connect each of these events.

I'm not sure why you wish to paint me with a mysoginistic brush, chance,

Just a question, nothing more.

but I'll assure you it's not simply about women. All people can feel doubt or insecurity and seek reassurance for their doubts. I simply referred to women doing such because a woman is the subject of the argument.

...and I'm pretty sure you're gonna apply that to Tifa somehow on that very specific point....somehow.

The entire point of it being generalized is that it's an open question, as no one has answered it. On the other hand, it has been pointed out several times how "I'm... We're here for you' is about Cloud not understanding Aerith's dillemma, and pointing out that she can't be lonely, she's got AVALANCHE around to keep her company. Still, Serene is right. Her point was entirely ignored despite being asked of the assembly, as was the points of the short list.
I'd say the evasion of such is rather telling.

Or the cleris here might actually have differrent viewpoints on that one other than thinking it's romantic.

 

[Stella]

You'll notice that they stated Tifa's line was risque/delicate, not the actual scene itself. When playing through the game, it's obvious that Tifa has feelings for Cloud, and I thought that her lines in the HW scene made it pretty clear that she was basically stating her feelings to Cloud. Yet, what does Cloud reply? "...." To me, that dosn't seem to show that he repocriates Tifa's feelings, at all.

Cloud walking out of the chocobo stable followed by a very nervous Tifa thereafter is quite a risque scene. Yes, he was refering to Tifa's line when he said risque, but the original scene in itself was as well. They said they had to tone it down which means the same thing happens, only it's not so "in your face" because the screen fades to black. And I seem to recall Cloud saying, "My heart was calling out too...it was saying Tifa". Now tell me, how in the world can Tifa's love be one-sided after Cloud says something like that? I don't see how you can even think that's open to speculation. As stated at least twenty times in this thread already as well, the Ultimania states that Cloud and Tifa realized their feelings for each other towards the end of the game (HW scene) and live together in AC and DOC, as well as take on the role of mother and father to two young children.

But we HAVE gave you evidence, but in turn you simply shoot it down and claim it not to be enough, and in turn members like Ryu were rude and patronising to me and others, simply for the fact that they prefer their pairing over ours.

I'm simply saying that while we are backing up our case with direct quotes from the Ultimania, the creators, ect., the Clerith side is backing up theirs with scenes that take place early on in FF7 when the romantic pairing is still up to the player, Maiden of the Planet which is not correct chronologically and goes against what happens in Crisis Core, and random things such as "The Calling" which doesn't prove anything romantic-wise. It is not my intent nor anyone else's to hurt people's feelings, but this is a debate and we have put much more on the table that can be taken seriously than your side has.

Like I said before, I doubt there will ever be a "right" pairing, it is up to us to decide. And yes, SE do consider the LT a big enough part of the 7 universe to keep an enigma. A while back, Nomura said something along the lines of "Cloud's dream is to meet Aerith again", but that statement was withdrawn because of the upset of Cloti fans. Notice how after all this time they STILL haven't given us a clear answer? If they "didn't care about it that much." then why haven't they just come out and confirmed who the "real" pairing is?

It is up to us until Cloud becomes himself again. After that point, he chooses to live a life with Tifa, which he directly states in COT. The lifestream and highwind scenes only further emphasize his choice. To me, that is our answer from SE. They have given us all the information we need to put 2 and 2 together, so why should they have to come right out and say it? As for that line you quoted, someone else in this thread already mentioned that the creators of a magazine came up with that it was not quoted from any of the FF7 staff.

Scenes that some people consider romantic, arn't considered romantic by others and vice-versa. I just believe that SE have given more indication to Clerith than Cloti, such as "The Calling" music video of Cloud and Aerith at the end of AC, the fact that after all this time, we haven't seen Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship, to me it looks like a famial relationship, nothing more. I don't see anything in there that can be considered romantic, but like I said, it's down to interpretation. Which is all there is to be said, really.

At the end of advent children, Aerith walks into the light with Zack and Cloud goes back to living his life with Tifa and the children. In my eyes, at least, that is yet another hint on SE's part of who the two canon pairings truly are. The main thing is that Aerith is dead and she is never going to come back no matter how much people want her to. Any relationship between her and Cloud is impossible if you look at it that way. Cloud, on the other hand, is content to live a happy life with the woman he always had feelings for, and that's just the way it is. We have given you all the information and evidence that proves their relationship is a romantic one, but I don't think anything we say is going to convince you that they are more than just "friends" living together.

@Chance-

I got a direct evidence of Tifa still wanting to know if Cloud loves her. You seriously want me to believe that they're a couple now over some implications? You want me to throw away direct evidence because of this?

As already mentioned by Ryushikaze, it is perfectly normal for a woman to ask the man she is involved with if he still loves her, especially if they're going through a rough patch like Cloud and Tifa are. I don't see how that one line proves anything.

Most likely because I don't go around stating CXA is a couple when I know the story is open-ended.

I've already stated in my above posts that it's up to the player until a certain point, then Cloud chooses for himself. It's definately not open-ended.

Now this is what's truly funny in my opinion. This site:

clerith.com

Is also backed up by quotes from ultimania and the creators, but I'm pretty sure this site is nothing compare to the evidence you've been giving out since it's so much better because you know....Well yea, you gotta tell me why cus I really can't tell the difference between you and that site right now. I don't even think you're in the same level,especially when you gave out this so called "evidence".

That site does nothing more than try and diss-prove the Cloti side. It doesn't give any real evidence of the Cloud and Aerith pairing, besides what you all have already posted here, which certainly wasn't evidence. I don't take that site seriously at all and I don't see any point in wasting time talking about what it says there.

Your conclusion is as shaky as your premise(realizing their feelings? what feelings?). In fact, your conclusion is non-existant. What do you want me to say here exactly? It's your proof for Cloud and Tifa being a couple, aren't you suppose to explain that to me?

That quote pretty much directly states that Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual romantic feelings for one another and decide to start a life together. I don't see how else you can interpret the line "realize their feelings for each other" other than romantic. I'm sure you'll tell me whether I ask you to or not though, so go ahead. The main reason I posted it wasn't neccesarily to get an answer, it was just to show that the Ultimania itself does nothing but prove the Cloti pairing time and time again, whereas it says nothing about Cloud and Aerith. Oh wait that's right, the site clerith.com apparently has proof from the Ultimanias to prove the Clerith pairing, so why don't you go ahead and post those too.

 

[llCHANCEll]

Stella

As already mentioned by Ryushikaze, it is perfectly normal for a woman to ask the man she is involved with if he still loves her, especially if they're going through a rough patch like Cloud and Tifa are. I don't see how that one line proves anything.

Ryu also based it on anecdotal evidence.

I've already stated in my above posts that it's up to the player until a certain point, then Cloud chooses for himself. It's definately not open-ended.

Ok, tell me why.

That site does nothing more than try and diss-prove the Cloti side. It doesn't give any real evidence of the Cloud and Aerith pairing, besides what you all have already posted here, which certainly wasn't evidence. I don't take that site seriously at all and I don't see any point in wasting time talking about what it says there.

Because you guys are so much better why?

That quote pretty much directly states that Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual romantic feelings for one another and decide to start a life together. I don't see how else you can interpret the line "realize their feelings for each other" other than romantic. I'm sure you'll tell me whether I ask you to or not though, so go ahead. The main reason I posted it wasn't neccesarily to get an answer, it was just to show that the Ultimania itself does nothing but prove the Cloti pairing time and time again, whereas it says nothing about Cloud and Aerith. Oh wait that's right, the site clerith.com apparently has proof from the Ultimanias to prove the Clerith pairing, so why don't you go ahead and post those too.

It never said romantic. It could familial or friendly. Take your pick. Let's just hope you're going to say something different this time.

The main reason I posted it wasn't neccesarily to get an answer, it was just to show that the Ultimania itself does nothing but prove the Cloti pairing time and time again, whereas it says nothing about Cloud and Aerith.

Yea, the evidence you've been posting in this board isn't exactly doing its job right now for the cloti. Again, you're so much better than the site why?

Oh wait that's right, the site clerith.com apparently has proof from the Ultimanias to prove the Clerith pairing, so why don't you go ahead and post those too.

You could try reading it. It's just there, just click on it. How hard can it be? Besides I believe in the open-endedness of the story, it'd be counter-productive/hypocritical if I run around yelling "cleris is canon!"

 

[Vauel-Faur]

It never said romantic. It could familial or friendly. Take your pick. Let's just hope you're going to say something different this time.

Sorry for butting in, but why would it be pointed out that they realized they had familial feelings for each other? It seems a little redundant for friends to have the epiphany that their feelings toward each other are friendly, don't you think?

 

[llCHANCEll]

I really wouldn't know, that is the mystery of that qoute that was suppose to prove that Cloud and Tifa are a couple. I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:

Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa

Guess it's open to interpretation eh?

 

[Serene]

Heck, what's stopping a random "cleris" from saying pretty much the same thing? Only in reverse.

Like this for example:

Why is "If you forget the way you were then, I'll be here to remind you" (said with a blush), considered romantic but "But I'm ... we're here for you" not romantic?--- A cleris to some random cloti in general

I'm willing to give you that the C/A line is romantic. Are you willing to give the same?
And that's directed at anyone, not just chance.

 

[llCHANCEll]

I don't find both scenes romantic at all. Like I said, the story is not all about the LTD...

 

[Serene]

I agree with you, the story's not all about the LTD. But wouldn't Cloud's expression of care be a factor in the LTD?

 

[Infinity D]

"As already mentioned by Ryushikaze, it is perfectly normal for a woman to ask the man she is involved with if he still loves her, especially if they're going through a rough patch like Cloud and Tifa are. I don't see how that one line proves anything. "

"Ryu also based it on anecdotal evidence."

You're downplaying Ryu's and Stella's argument with this "anecdotal evidence" thing. I can agree that an anecdotal evidence doesn't weight much, but it weighs much more than an idealistic generalization a clerith had made stating that “something is wrong” if a woman questions her man’s love for her. Instead of shooting down Ryu's "anecdotal evidence" why can't you equally question the idealistic notion of a clerith? Certainly, the latter argument is much more flawed, as I hope we can agree that if a cloud-tifa romantic relationship does exist, their relationship should be more reality-based than fantasy-based.

^^But all that is minor right? The burden lies in proving that Cloud and Tifa are in fact in a relationship. The cloti side has already provided proof/quotes to establish the Cloud-Tifa relationship. Clerith's haven't yet provided anything, except trying stubbornly to shoot down any arguments in favor of cloti. Which is remarkable I'd say considering the amount of proof in favor of cloti. Why won’t you try and tackle down the real arguments provided by clotis instead of sidetracking on the mechanics.

"I really wouldn't know, that is the mystery of that qoute that was suppose to prove that Cloud and Tifa are a couple. I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:

Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa

Guess it's open to interpretation eh?"

It's really not a mystery. By your logic, anyone can easily fall out of love simply because they ask that question: do you love me? By your logic, if my girlfriend of two years questions my love for her (because I’ve been emo and it worried her) then it automatically meant that our relationship was not established out of love.

Again. Instead of sidetracking. Let’s get to the real proof provided by clotis. And why won’t we see some cleriths providing evidence.

 

[The Illusive Man]

this debate will still rattle on when our grandkids are all grown up.

for me I'll put it down to point of view and the individuals perception and allow you to make your own minds up.

no matter what one person thinks, there will always be a different view on the relationship pairings, thats part of the magic that keeps ff7 alive in our memories today

 

[llCHANCEll]

^ I wholeheartedly agree, except for that whole magic of FF7. I'm starting to hate em for it.



Lonestar47

You're downplaying Ryu's and Stella's argument with this "anecdotal evidence" thing. I can agree that an anecdotal evidence doesn't weight much, but it weighs much more than an idealistic generalization a clerith had made stating that “something is wrong” if a woman questions her man’s love for her. Instead of shooting down Ryu's "anecdotal evidence" why can't you equally question the idealistic notion of a clerith? Certainly, the latter argument is much more flawed, as I hope we can agree that if a cloud-tifa romantic relationship does exist, their relationship should be more reality-based than fantasy-based.
​

Mind telling me who made that generalization first? Because I don't remember someone saying anything like that.

^^But all that is minor right? The burden lies in proving that Cloud and Tifa are in fact in a relationship. The cloti side has already provided proof/quotes to establish the Cloud-Tifa relationship.^^But all that is minor right? The burden lies in proving that Cloud and Tifa are in fact in a relationship. The cloti side has already provided proof/quotes to establish the Cloud-Tifa relationship. Clerith's haven't yet provided anything, except trying stubbornly to shoot down any arguments in favor of cloti. Which is remarkable I'd say considering the amount of proof in favor of cloti. Why won’t you try and tackle down the real arguments provided by clotis instead of sidetracking on the mechanics.

I've seen those quotes, didn't really established anything. Again, I don't see the differrence between you guys and clerith.com(check it out, I don't even know why you guys keep saying they haven't provided anything yet when all you can do is just "click on it")

...and why do you think I'm sidetracking on the mechanics? Do you honestly think all this so called vast amount of "evidence", proofs, and quotes would matter if Cloud said these three words?

"I love you" --- Cloud to someone

Likewise,do you honestly think that all that so called evidence that was "supposed" to prove that Cloud and Tifa are together romantically would matter if Tifa wants the same answer we've all been asking?

Do you love me? ---- Tifa to Cloud

Can you see why I'm not really putting a lot of weight on your so called evidence and proofs? Everything that's establish in this debate can fall apart by these so called "short lines" provided above.

It's the reason why I'm looking for some confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa, you guys haven't provided anything like that. If that was actually provided, then you end this debate that's been going on for more than ten years. Again, you call that "sidetracking"?

It's really not a mystery. By your logic, anyone can easily fall out of love simply because they ask that question: do you love me? By your logic, if my girlfriend of two years questions my love for her (because I’ve been emo and it worried her) then it automatically meant that our relationship was not established out of love.

Who says that was my logic? I don't even know if one of them were in love iin the first place.... I think you guys were suppose to prove that.

Again. Instead of sidetracking. Let’s get to the real proof provided by clotis. And why won’t we see some cleriths providing evidence.

Like I said, I support the open-endedness of this story. And you guys still need to work on your own so called "proof". It hasn't really proven anything from what I can tell...

Serene

I agree with you, the story's not all about the LTD. But wouldn't Cloud's expression of care be a factor in the LTD?

Sure, I'm open to that idea.

 

[Infinity D]

"Mind telling me who made that generalization first? Because I don't remember someone saying anything like that."

Quoting Alantie: "
If you've been in a romantic relationship with a guy for several years- supposedly- and have to ask him if he loves you, clearly there's something wrong there. What does that say about a couple's communication, if one person isn't sure the other loves them after they've slept together and lived in the same place for several years? Either that the guy is a total dirtbag who's been taking advantace of the woman or the woman is completely dense."

"I've seen those quotes, didn't really established anything. Again, I don't see the differrence between you guys and clerith.com(check it out)...and why do you think I'm sidetracking on the mechanics?"

I've totally ignored clerith.com. Why won't you compare what we say to the compilation instead of a fansite? An on why you're sidetracking on the mechanics? Here's why. Your quote: "I've seen those quotes, didn't really established anything." Easy to say. But like I said, you're sidetracking because you're not actually tackling it. Proofs have been provided to establish the relationship and all you can say is that it didn't establish anything. Mind explaining why? I'm not asking you to accept it as "supposed proof" if it wasn't "proof." I guess I was asking you to accept it though if you can't tackle it. *shrug* And yes, you haven’t addressed them.

“Do you honestly think all this so called vast amount of "evidence", proofs, and quotes would matter if Cloud said these three words?

"I love you" --- Cloud to someone

Likewise,do you honestly think that all that so called evidence that was "supposed" to prove that Cloud and Tifa are together romantically would matter if Tifa wants the same answer we've all been asking?

Do you love me? ---- Tifa to Cloud

Can you see why I'm not really putting a of weight on your so called evidence and proofs? Everything that's establish in this debate can fall apart by these so called "short lines".

Again, you call that "sidetracking"?”

Ermm What?!? I’m not saying that the fact that Tifa asks Cloud whether he loves her is proof that they are in love. I brought them up to refute your logic from “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa”.

It seems you are saying that we need the quote “I love you” to actually prove that Tifa and Cloud are in a relationship. Which ff couples admitted “I love you” to confirm that they have romantic feelings for each other.

Focus on this. “They realized their mutual feelings for each other.” That’s proof from the ultimania.


“Again, you call that "sidetracking"?”

Umm. I was referring to you putting great emphasis on the “anecdotal evidence thing.” So yes, it’s sidetracking. Because again, you’re not tackling the evidence posed. That’s why I said it was minor to the larger argument. Whether you call what was said evidence or not, you still have yet to refute them. You’re “just saying” that they’re not proofs. Why won’t you break them down and convince me they’re not good enough to be considered evidence.

“Who says that was my logic? I don't even know if one of them were in love iin the first place.... I think you guys were suppose to prove that.”

Uhh. What is your logic then when you say: “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa”

So what is your logic?


“Like I said, I support the open-endedness of this story. And you guys still need to work on your own so called "proof". It hasn't really proven anything from what I can tell...”

Again. Easy to say. But please tackle them, please. Clotis do not need to “work” on proofs because I’m sure it has been “worked” since there are a lot of posed “proofs” here. Now, you need to show that you can actually break it down and show that it is in fact not good enough to be considered proofs.

 

[llCHANCEll]

If you've been in a romantic relationship with a guy for several years- supposedly- and have to ask him if he loves you, clearly there's something wrong there. What does that say about a couple's communication, if one person isn't sure the other loves them after they've slept together and lived in the same place for several years? Either that the guy is a total dirtbag who's been taking advantace of the woman or the woman is completely dense."

Oh, I've seen that. I'm pretty sure that's under the premise that Cloud and Tifa had been a couple at all. I don't think Alantie believes that though....you want me to ask her?

I've totally ignored clerith.com. Why you're sidetracking on the mechanics? Here, your quote: "I've seen those quotes, didn't really established anything." Easy to say. But like I said, you're sidetracking because you're not actually tackling it.I've totally ignored clerith.com. Why you're sidetracking on the mechanics? Here, your quote: "I've seen those quotes, didn't really established anything." Easy to say. But like I said, you're sidetracking because you're not actually tackling it. Proofs have been provided to establish the relationship and all you can say is that it didn't establish anything. Mind explaining why? I'm not asking you to accept it as "supposed proof" if it wasn't "proof." I guess I was asking you to accept it though if you can't tackle it. *shrug* And yes, you haven’t addressed them.

I've been doing that for the past couple of pages now. What are you talking about?

Ermm What?!? I’m not saying that the fact that Tifa asks Cloud whether he loves her is proof that they are in love.

Eh? Where did I imply that you said that?

I brought them up to refute your logic from “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa”.

All you said is that I haven't tackled the so called real arguments when that's all I've been doing for the past couple pages now. I hvea this funny feeling we have a different view on the term "tackle".

It seems you are saying that we need the quote “I love you” to actually prove that Tifa and Cloud are in a relationship. Which ff couples admitted “I love you” to confirm that they have romantic feelings for each other.

No one, hence the open-endedness. Something that I've been supporting for a while now.

I'm guessing the next statement from you will be considered one of the clotis "real arguments" right? Let's "tackle" it shall we? It's what Ive been doing for the past couple pages.

Focus on this. “They realized their mutual feelings for each other.” That’s proof from the ultimania.

Again, what kind of feelings and how does it prove your case?

Umm. I was referring to you putting great emphasis on the “anecdotal evidence thing.” So yes, it’s sidetracking. Because again, you’re not tackling the evidence posed. That’s why I said it was minor to the larger argument. Whether you call what was said evidence or not, you still have yet to refute them. You’re “just saying” that they’re not proofs. Why won’t you break them down and convince me they’re not good enough to be considered evidence.

You want me to refute an anecdotal evidence base on one's personal experience?

Is that all it takes to prove one's point these days? Use one's personal experience? Is that really what you want me to do?

So what is your logic?

My logic is simple, she's asking the same question we've all been asking. Answers that was supposed to have been established by you guys. Now Id like to know if the answers have truly been given by you guys. Until then, I don't see why it has to be love in that so called mutual relationship until you guys provide something concrete for it.

Again. Easy to say. But please tackle them, please. Clotis do not need to “work” on proofs because I’m sure it has been “worked” since there are a lot of posed “proofs” here. Now, you need to show that you can actually break it down and show that it is in fact not good enough to be considered proofs.

Again, one of these proofs is that you want me to refute an anecdotal evidence based on one's personal experience?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Right, so, if I've been following Chance correctly, there are no romantic subplots in any FF game ever, because none of them have an explicit declaration of love, with the exception of FF10, and that was added in translation. Or is it just FF7 the need for 'I love you' arises?
Because honestly, I've played every game in the series, save FF11, and Cloud and Tifa are the second most progressed main pairing (if you will) in any game. Only Cecil and Rosa have more overt evidence, and they still haven't said the three magic words chance demands to hear.

Honestly, I think your standards of proof are simply ratcheted too close to the 'absolute proof' level.

Slightly something-
Is this one blatantly obvious too(left by a man, clingy woman, hurt emotionally)? Or should we dare say "but it doesn't say what feelingz"?

Reread the quote, she's not a clingy woman, though it is true she's been left by her man- he left in a misguided effort to protect her and the kids, his loves ones, and he comes back once he settles the demons that cause him to leave- and she had been emotionally hurt, both previously, and by the walkabout.
Yes, it is obvious, but you have to remember the context.

Guess I'll say something similar to you then...

Righty-o, then.

Are we just relying on Ad Hominems now or can you actually back that up?

You used Occam's razor to try and justify not asking about a character's motivation. This is not a correct usage of the razor. The razor does not say 'don't complicate the question', it says 'favor the answer which fits and explains all the data points with the fewest additional elements'. The razor applies to answering, not asking.

Just want to make sure. Re-confirmation generally means something was confirmed before.

What was confirmed before?

Mutual Feelings. Feelings that Cloud says are the same as when he was a child. When he was a Child, he loved Tifa. It's not exactly hard to connect the dots here. They're already filled in.

It's fine as long as you "really" know what it is:

-snip-

How is this helping your case again? Using anecdotal evidence to highlight a point in "real relationships"?

I was just using the anecdote as a real world example. Calling it anecdotal evidence of the sort that you reference is disingenuous, chancey.

Anecdotal evidence right? You'd understand if I don't take your word for it.

They tell me that's how they feel, they would know. Horse's Mouth, not anecdotal.

Yea, we've been through that.

Where exactly did it state that Cloud and Tifa are together as lovers? Or am I about to see a slippery slope from you trying to connect one event to another? Let's just hope you have ample evidence to connect each of these events.

A slippery slope? Now, I know you love using the $10 debate words, chancey, but it's hardly a slippery slope to connect 'Boy fell in love with girl before leaving', 'boy and girl recognized mutual feelings for each other', 'boy and girl confirming mutual feelings for each other', 'girl is a lover in a mutual romantic relationship', 'boy and girl belong together'. In any other circumstance, any other couple, I'm sure you'd connect them as well.

Just a question, nothing more.

A question that leading without a purpose?

...and I'm pretty sure you're gonna apply that to Tifa somehow on that very specific point....somehow.

I see no reason why I should.

Or the cleris here might actually have differrent viewpoints on that one other than thinking it's romantic.

Yes, they might.
But then again, Creos have the viewpoint that Evolution is nothing more than a religion that exists to deny the existence of the Christian god for the purpose of sex and debauchery, and that's a ludicrous viewpoint as well.
If you're saying that it's romantic, it helps if there's a prior romantic intent. Hence why I ask for it.

And no one deals with the short list. Again. Kersigh.

 

[Serene]

So the standard is set at the words "I love you." So I guess all couples in all FF games are up to interpretation. Good to know.

I guess what we'd like to see is some sort of C/A equivalent to this list. Chance is obviously not interested in providing it. Any others care to step up to the plate?

Now then, the short list. Entries in order of relevant chronology.
Cloud falls in love with Tifa before leaving Nibleheim for SOLDIER- CC Ultimania. Plainly stated.
Cloud was seeking to impress Tifa when he aimed for SOLDIER- his own words, lifestream sequence.
Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for each other in the lifestream- 10TH An. Ulti.
They affirm these feelings under the highwind- Same as above.
Said scene contains mature dialogue and is considered risque by the creators, and was created by a part of the team with a lot of movie experience- 10th Aniv preface interview. P12, IIRC.
Immediately AFTER FF7, Cloud asks Tifa to be with him from that day on, and believes that he can succeed in life where he had previously failed because he will have Tifa with him- Case of Tifa.
Barret and Cid both consider C and T a couple- Case of Barrett.
The happier Cloud gets, the lonelier he becomes- AC Prologue book.
After contracting Geostigma, Cloud leaves to protect his loved ones- AC Prologue.
Tifa is a Koibito: a lover in a relationship- Reunion Files.
Cloud and Tifa belong together- Nojima, Reunion Files.
Cloud spends less than a week total at Aerith's church- 10th Aniv.
Cloud is running from comfort/ something warm- 10TH An, interviews with Nomura re: KH and AC.
Cloud lives with Tifa until just before AC and resumes living with her immediately thereafter, up through and after DoC.

 

[llCHANCEll]

Ryu

Right, so, if I've been following Chance correctly, there are no romantic subplots in any FF game ever, because none of them have an explicit declaration of love, with the exception of FF10, and that was added in translation. Or is it just FF7 the need for 'I love you' arises?
Because honestly, I've played every game in the series, save FF11, and Cloud and Tifa are the second most progressed main pairing (if you will) in any game. Only Cecil and Rosa have more overt evidence, and they still haven't said the three magic words chance demands to hear.

Well you haven't been reading correctly. I said/implied no such thing.

Righty-o, then.

Alrighty then....

You used Occam's razor to try and justify not asking about a character's motivation. This is not a correct usage of the razor. The razor does not say 'don't complicate the question', it says 'favor the answer which fits and explains all the data points with the fewest additional elements'. The razor applies to answering, not asking.

Bolded part: Where did I say that?

Mutual Feelings. Feelings that Cloud says are the same as when he was a child. When he was a Child, he loved Tifa. It's not exactly hard to connect the dots here. They're already filled in.

Quotes?

*sigh* And people say I don't tackle real arguments. One has to wonder why....

I was just using the anecdote as a real world example. Calling it anecdotal evidence of the sort that you reference is disingenuous, chancey.

You called it anecdotal evidence, not me:

"No, anecdotal evidence is fine just so long as you remember that that is all it is."---Ryu

I just gave you the meaning for it....Still flawed imo.

They tell me that's how they feel, they would know. Horse's Mouth, not anecdotal.

Anecdotal Evidence

1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay

*sigh* Moving on....

A slippery slope? Now, I know you love using the $10 debate words, chancey, but it's hardly a slippery slope to connect 'Boy fell in love with girl before leaving', 'boy and girl recognized mutual feelings for each other', 'boy and girl confirming mutual feelings for each other', 'girl is a lover in a mutual romantic relationship', 'boy and girl belong together'. In any other circumstance, any other couple, I'm sure you'd connect them as well.

*sigh*

Do you actually have quotes for this?

A question that leading without a purpose?

Just curious, nothing more.

I see no reason why I should.

I think you should.

Yes, they might.
But then again, Creos have the viewpoint that Evolution is nothing more than a religion that exists to deny the existence of the Christian god for the purpose of sex and debauchery, and that's a ludicrous viewpoint as well.
If you're saying that it's romantic, it helps if there's a prior romantic intent. Hence why I ask for it.

I'm not...

And no one deals with the short list.

"Well, when you make legitimate points, I will address them." Yea, you know how it goes...

Serene

I guess what we'd like to see is some sort of C/A equivalent to this list. Chance is obviously not interested in providing it. Any others care to step up to the plate?

You might want to check out clerith.com, and unlike that list. It actually has "real quotes" on em.

 

[Infinity D]

Oh, I've seen that. I'm pretty sure that's under the premise that Cloud and Tifa had been a couple at all. I don't think Alantie believes that though....you want me to ask her?[/

quote]

Okay. So you give Alantie a pass? That’s very fair.

I've been doing that for the past couple of pages now. What are you talking about?"

What are YOU talking about? You have NOT. Someone’s asking you to, in my own word, “tackle” their short list.

“Eh? Where did I imply that you said that?”[/quote]
So what’s the point of you bring up this “I love you” thing then? You know. You’re really good at going in circles.

All you said is that I haven't tackled the so called real arguments when that's all I've been doing for the past couple pages now. I hvea this funny feeling we have a different view on the term "tackle"

I think I’ve been clear on what I mean on the word. Address the facts posed. And since you claim they don’t establish anything. Prove it. Explain yourself.

No one, hence the open-endedness. Something that I've been supporting for a while now.

Really? So the relationship between Squall and Rinoa is open-ended. As well as Yuna and Tidus? Because they didn’t proclaim their love for each other?

I'm guessing the next statement from you will be considered one of the clotis "real arguments" right? Let's "tackle" it shall we? It's what Ive been doing for the past couple pages.

Right. The short list. Are you ready to "tackle" it?

Again, what kind of feelings and how does it prove your case?

How come so many cleirths claim Tifa’s love for cloud is one-sided? How do THEY know? You ask them. If they know Tifa’s feelings for Cloud, and the ultimania says mutual, that means Cloud must have the same feelings for Tifa.

You want me to refute an anecdotal evidence base on one's personal experience?

Is that all it takes to prove one's point these days? Use one's personal experience? Is that really what you want me to do?

Why are you bringing up the anecdotal evidence thing again? I thought I made it clear that we should be passed that. Tackle the short list, Chance.

My logic is simple, she's asking the same question we've all been asking. Answers that was supposed to have been established by you guys. Now Id like to know if the answers have truly been given by you guys. Until then, I don't see why it has to be love in that so called mutual relationship until you guys provide something concrete for it.

This logic of yours NOW, makes no connection to the statement I was referring to. “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:
Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa”

Again, one of these proofs is that you want me to refute an anecdotal evidence based on one's personal experience?

Why do you keep on bring this up? I said it was minor. Go refute Ryushikaze’s short list. And we’ll go from there.