FFVII: LTD Debate Thread

[llCHANCEll]

Lonestar

You might want to try to fix your post. Hard to tell which part is mine and which part is yours.

What are YOU talking about? You have NOT. Someone’s asking you to, in my own word, “tackle” their short list.

No one is "asking" me that yet...

Why do you keep on bring this up? I said it was minor. Go refute Ryushikaze’s short list. And we’ll go from there.

Oh so you guys just want me to change subject now? Why?( most of that list needs real quotes btw, not just propositions from those quotes)

 

[Infinity D]

Lonestar

You might want to try to fix your post. Hard to tell which part is mine and which part is yours.

No one is "asking" me that yet...


Oh so you guys just want me to change subject now? Why?( most of that list needs real quotes btw, not just propositions from those quotes)

I've already fixed it [somewhat]. But that's trivial to the LTD. Just like your claim that I'm changing the subject. What's the subject we're on right now?

So you want someone to point a finger at your name and tell you to refute it?

See. This is what I mean. you get into minor details and sidetrack from the main argument.

 

[Alantie]

lonestar47- Regarding my statement, it's a belief by some of the shippers of the Cloti pairing that Cloud and Tifa slept together under the Highwind, and that they share a room at Seventh Heaven. Do I believe it? Certainly not, there is no proof or statements that have said that. In the future, if you have some question about something I said, ask me.

Um, I hate to burst bubbles, but the call to Tifa scene shows a few scattered flowers and scrublands. It also shows that he stopped to call Tifa, and maybe pick some flowers (he also could have picked them when he stopped to talk with Barrett, where a lot more flowers abounded). The credits also show that Cloud drives home to be with his family, as reminiscence confirms. Anyone speculating that something else happened in between Cloud's call and his driving home suffers the burden of proof.
Or is just plain insane in the case of certain fanfic writers.

Hate to burst your bubble, but look again. I've even provided images for you.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/barretreminiscence.jpg

Reminiscence, Cloud's stop to pick up the packages from Barret. No flowers. Grass, trees, scrubs.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/tifacallremincence.jpg

Reminiscence, Cloud's stop to talk to Tifa. Flower field in the background.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/aerithcalling.jpg

Calling, Aerith standing in the flower field.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/cloudcalling.jpg

Calling, Cloud on the motorcycle in the flowerfield.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/clouddesk.jpg

After Calling, Cloud's desk. Note the flowers on the desk, the pictures of the yellow field of flowers on the walls and on the desk.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/clouddesk2.jpg

After Calling, Cloud's desk, close up on the picture of the gang, flowers resting in front.

So you're saying the flowers that have been shown growing in the field where Aerith was standing, the flowers shown in every picture but the picture with Barret, did not come from that field. They came from some unknown location. Got a picture to back that up? A quote? The video does not show Cloud driving home, it doesn't show him driving into Edge, walking into Seventh Heaven or hugging Tifa. He's in an unknown part of the world on his motorcycle. Interesting, the thing people call 'coming home.'

As for 'Who says calling shows Aerith watching over the entire party', I never said it did, but in all likelihood, that is what the flowers placed before the photo of family and friends is supposed to represent. That Aerith is still a part of all of them.

So the flowers in front of a picture on Cloud's desk with Cloud's possessions is supposed to prove that Aerith is watching over everyone? When Nomura's quote specifically states that Calling is about Cloud and his feelings? Where does Nomura or anyone else say that the point of Aerith in the video is something completely unrelated to the theme of Calling, Cloud's feelings?

Cloud falls in love with Tifa before leaving Nibleheim for SOLDIER- CC Ultimania. Plainly stated.

I believe the quote says that Tifa is the girl that Cloud has a 'dim crush' on. Having a crush a girl he doesn't even know very well at the time- confirmed by Tifa herself in the Lifestream event- is supposed to endure five years? Where does it say that Cloud continues to harbor this crush in FFVII? Or AC for that matter? DoC?

Cloud was seeking to impress Tifa when he aimed for SOLDIER- his own words, lifestream sequence.

Cloud says that he wanted to be noticed by everyone, including Tifa. That he wanted to be noticed by the girl he barely knew and who didn't acknowledge him.

Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for each other in the lifestream- 10TH An. Ulti.
They affirm these feelings under the highwind- Same as above.

Actual quote, please? What feelings did they affirm? Does it specify? It could just as easily be feelings of friendship. Pretty vauge to rely on.

Said scene contains mature dialogue and is considered risque by the creators, and was created by a part of the team with a lot of movie experience- 10th Aniv preface interview. P12, IIRC.

Take a closer line at what they actually said.

Kitase: "The event on the airship the night before the final battle was done by Katou as well, wasn't it."
Nojima: "Oh, the bit with that risqué/suggestive dialogue? I wasn't the one who wrote that, that was Katou too."
Interviewer: “Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel", that line, right? That's a rather mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: "Although I remember we had to tone down a version that was too strong."
Nojima: "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was for Cloud to walk out of the chocobo stable in the airship, followed by Tifa leaving while she kept looking around, but Kitase rejected it. But I think perhaps no one expected that line to be so important [laughs]"

They're talking about Tifa's words specifically, not the scene. That Tifa's lines can be taken in a more mature way than the creators had intended. Not Cloud's words, not the scene itself, only Tifa's line.

Immediately AFTER FF7, Cloud asks Tifa to be with him from that day on, and believes that he can succeed in life where he had previously failed because he will have Tifa with him- Case of Tifa.

Again, how does this prove he loves her as anything more than a friend? Cloud's talking about how he's always failed at starting a new life, and that this time is different because he has someone there with him. He doesn't say that she's there as a life partner or a romantic love.

Barret and Cid both consider C and T a couple- Case of Barrett.

"I left Marlene with Tifa. Since she's taken to her and all."

"Good for you. Whole world's clappin' you on the back. So Cloud's with Tifa?"

"Yeah. Tifa opened a bar, just like the old days. Cloud was helpin' out, but it sounds like he's got his own business keepin' him tied up now. A delivery service."

"Cloud? Run a business?"

"You can bet it's Tifa kickin' his ass into shape."

"I see. In the end, it's the women wear the pants."

Read the passage again. It says that Cloud's with Tifa, that Cloud's helping her with the bar, that Tifa is helping Cloud with his buisness. It doesn't say that Barret and Cid think that they're a couple.

The happier Cloud gets, the lonelier he becomes- AC Prologue book.

This proves he loves Tifa how?

After contracting Geostigma, Cloud leaves to protect his loved ones- AC Prologue.

I believe it says loved ones- your friends are your loved ones, are they not? Or do your loved ones automatically have to be romantic love interests now? It doesn't say that Cloud leaves to protect his wife/sweetheart/lover Tifa.

Tifa is a Koibito: a lover in a relationship- Reunion Files.

Koibito can also be translated as 'one who loves', though that does not mean the love is mutual. Again, in that line, it says sweetheart- it has no mention of Cloud's name anywhere in that paragraph, or hints that he has any reference to the sweetheart remark at all. Ironically enough, later on in the RF it also states that Tifa shares a maternal bond with Cloud.

Cloud and Tifa belong together- Nojima, Reunion Files.

Full quote please? Scan?

Cloud spends less than a week total at Aerith's church- 10th Aniv.

Scan, please?

Cloud is running from comfort/ something warm- 10TH An, interviews with Nomura re: KH and AC.

The quote goes on to say that the something warm is what Tifa wants. Not Cloud.

Cloud lives with Tifa until just before AC and resumes living with her immediately thereafter, up through and after DoC.

References? Quotes? Scans? Are we forgetting that another three people live in Seventh Heaven, among them Barret? And that Cloud has his own room, as has been clearly shown? Tifa lived with Biggs, Barret, and Wedge in the slums, but I don't see people claiming that that proves TifaxBarret canon.

 

[Cloti]

you are being ironic right?.
I read the whole site, and even if the information is legit it does not weight as much as the Cloti references.
it further stablish Aerith's role as a maternal figure and doesn't suggest any romance with Cloud.
I am actually quite happy I read it.

 

[Serene]

About this "koibito" stuff, can we just go with nonpartisan definitions and be done with it? Here's a Japanese dictionary, a reference site and a Japanese community. Notice the members of the community say you would NOT use koibito to indicate "one who loves."

 

[Cloti]

more sources telling us the meaning of koibito

http://www.japan-zone.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/tokyoguy/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1176631885

http://www.gokanji.com/cgi-bin/j-e/inline/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PW&L=J&T=%97%F6%90l&WC=none&FG=w&BG=b&S=26&I=on&IK=on&LI=on

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=koibito

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/japanese_to_english/other/335908-koibito.html

undeniable isn't it?

 

[Alantie]

So, none of you are going to offer scans or quotes to back up that stuff, hmm? Figures.

As for koibito, if you've studied languages, you should know perfectly well that few words have a single concrete meaning attached to them. Ever learned a language? In French, for example, the word poulet can mean either chicken, or prostitue. Another example- in Latin, gladuis can mean sword, or be a reference to male reproductive organs. This happens all the time in English even, as anyone should know. When creating another language to English dictionary, they usually pick the word closest to the English meaning. Not only that, but language is constantly changing and evolving, not to mention the addition of slang which only complicates matters. Dictionaries also tend to give formal definitions and not the popular culture way of using the word. There's even a difference in the way age groups speak- the younger generation can have a totally different meaning of a word than an older one. Example, not too long ago the older generation used 'gay' to mean sunny, bright, cheerful, but now the younger generation of today uses it to mean a person who is homosexual.

http://www.hello-online.org/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=99&showentry=590

http://forum.japantoday.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=169358

If you read through these links, you'll see there is quite a wide range of meanings that could be attached to it. Koibito doesn't even mean that the feeling of affection is mutual- it can imply a onesided love. Unless you're a native born Japanese person or a person who has studied the Japanese language for years, you can't give such statements about words having one concrete meaning.

And again, I stress that the 'koibito' sentence with Tifa does NOT say anything about Cloud. "There are many dimentions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle." I even have the scan if you want it.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/ReunionFiles14.jpg

Does it say that she is Cloud's sweetheart? No it does not- his name is not mentioned or even hinted at. Later on in the very same source it goes on to say that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud. Very contradictiory if she's supposed to be his sweetheart/romantic partner. CoT has Tifa feeling like a mother towards Cloud as well. You want to ignore that in favor of one word that has Cloud's name nowhere in the sentance? For all anyone knows, Tifa could be Barret's sweetheart, or Johnny's, or any number of males in the game/movie. So how to you immediately jump to the conclusion that this sentence talking about Tifa as a character suddenly means that Cloud and Tifa are lovers?

 

[Serene]

Thanks for the lesson on language. lulz

Those links don't say anything different than the ones we provided; in fact, they back up what we're saying. So I thank you for the additional sources. But do you have any links that say 恋人 means something other than lover/sweetheart?

Later on in the very same source it goes on to say that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud. Very contradictiory if she's supposed to be his sweetheart/romantic partner.

On the contrary, it's quite normal. I've always had maternal feelings for my boyfriends, and so have my friends. One friend lays out her husband's clothes every morning. OK, that's taking it to a creepy level, but still. The point is that maternal feelings and romantic feelings are not mutually exclusive, especially for a man who needs as much mothering as Cloud does.

Tifa could be Barret's sweetheart, or Johnny's, or any number of males in the game/movie

Then why does she ask Cloud if he loves her? Is she looking to cheat?

 

[Infinity D]

So, none of you are going to offer scans or quotes to back up that stuff, hmm? Figures.

As for koibito, if you've studied languages, you should know perfectly well that few words have a single concrete meaning attached to them. Ever learned a language? In French, for example, the word poulet can mean either chicken, or prostitue. Another example- in Latin, gladuis can mean sword, or be a reference to male reproductive organs. This happens all the time in English even, as anyone should know. When creating another language to English dictionary, they usually pick the word closest to the English meaning. Not only that, but language is constantly changing and evolving, not to mention the addition of slang which only complicates matters. Dictionaries also tend to give formal definitions and not the popular culture way of using the word. There's even a difference in the way age groups speak- the younger generation can have a totally different meaning of a word than an older one. Example, not too long ago the older generation used 'gay' to mean sunny, bright, cheerful, but now the younger generation of today uses it to mean a person who is homosexual.

http://www.hello-online.org/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=99&showentry=590

http://forum.japantoday.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=169358

If you read through these links, you'll see there is quite a wide range of meanings that could be attached to it. Koibito doesn't even mean that the feeling of affection is mutual- it can imply a onesided love. Unless you're a native born Japanese person or a person who has studied the Japanese language for years, you can't give such statements about words having one concrete meaning.

And again, I stress that the 'koibito' sentence with Tifa does NOT say anything about Cloud. "There are many dimentions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle." I even have the scan if you want it.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/ReunionFiles14.jpg

Does it say that she is Cloud's sweetheart? No it does not- his name is not mentioned or even hinted at. Later on in the very same source it goes on to say that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud. Very contradictiory if she's supposed to be his sweetheart/romantic partner. CoT has Tifa feeling like a mother towards Cloud as well. You want to ignore that in favor of one word that has Cloud's name nowhere in the sentance? For all anyone knows, Tifa could be Barret's sweetheart, or Johnny's, or any number of males in the game/movie. So how to you immediately jump to the conclusion that this sentence talking about Tifa as a character suddenly means that Cloud and Tifa are lovers?

Erhhmmm. Let's come to some kind of agreement here, ne? Step by step. Let's say that you're right that the word koibito doesn't always mean that a mutual love is implied. That it is a one-sided love. Then can you answer why the ultimania states that Cloud and Tifa realized their mutual feelings for each other? Somehow, it doesn't fit the equation. If it is a one-sided love, then the ultimania would not have stated that Cloud and Tifa realized their mutual feelings for each other. And this is even if the word koibito follows your interpretation, it doesn't apply in this case, to Cloud's and Tifa's relationship. The fact that the word koibito is even mentioned kills the clerith claims that the mutual feelings we were refering to is familial or jusy buddy-buddy. ..Hmm. I wonder what kind of mutual feelings they were referiing to.

And about Cloud's name not being mentioned. You have to wonder. If Tifa is not Cloud's koibito, why does this secret koibito of hers, does not even live with her and instead permits her to live with another man and two children.

 

[Ryushikaze]

lonestar47- Regarding my statement, it's a belief by some of the shippers of the Cloti pairing that Cloud and Tifa slept together under the Highwind, and that they share a room at Seventh Heaven. Do I believe it? Certainly not, there is no proof or statements that have said that. In the future, if you have some question about something I said, ask me.

Actually, no matter what, Cloud and Tifa slept together under the highwind- they wake up together. What is at issue is whether there came hanky panky as well as the sleeping together. As for sharing a room, it's either sharing the room, or being there so often as to not even raise an eyebrow over when the woman is there, at night, asking questions after you are asleep.

Hate to burst your bubble, but look again. I've even provided images for you. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/barretreminiscence.jpg

Reminiscence, Cloud's stop to pick up the packages from Barret. No flowers. Grass, trees, scrubs.

Fair enough. I will admit to misremembering.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/tifacallremincence.jpg

Reminiscence, Cloud's stop to talk to Tifa. Flower field in the background.

Actually the foreground. In the background is that scrubland I was referring to.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/aerithcalling.jpg

Calling, Aerith standing in the flower field.

Yes. Notably lacking any Cloud. When we cut back to Cloud, he continues driving past, and Aerith turns. The script describes this as her looking on sadly.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/cloudcalling.jpg

Calling, Cloud on the motorcycle in the flowerfield.

Cloud on Motorcycle on Road heading towards the scrublands in the background. Headed home.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/clouddesk.jpg

After Calling, Cloud's desk. Note the flowers on the desk, the pictures of the yellow field of flowers on the walls and on the desk.

Only three or four of those can be identified as Flowerfields. The rest appear to be regular green fields, brown, a couple of industrial shots on the other side of the desk. A few mountains. Given that Cloud is in the habit of telling stories to the kids about his travels, it is much more parsimonious to conclude that these photos are taken for telling these stories, instead of taking them because of a pining for the Flower Girl.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/Star_Wanderer/clouddesk2.jpg

After Calling, Cloud's desk, close up on the picture of the gang, flowers resting in front.

So you're saying the flowers that have been shown growing in the field where Aerith was standing, the flowers shown in every picture but the picture with Barret, did not come from that field.

You do realize that Cloud is driving down the highway in the credits sequence and in Reminiscence, covering hundreds of miles as he goes? The field Aerith appears in is by consequence almost certainly geographically disparate from the field Cloud calls Tifa in. Unless you argue that all flower fields are Aerith, of course.

They came from some unknown location. Got a picture to back that up? A quote? The video does not show Cloud driving home, it doesn't show him driving into Edge, walking into Seventh Heaven or hugging Tifa. He's in an unknown part of the world on his motorcycle. Interesting, the thing people call 'coming home.'

Reminiscence details that Cloud is finishing up his deliveries and heading home. If he never heads home, how can he put the flowers in front of the photo?
Y'know, it's worth pointing out that these flowers are yellow. Yellow flowers represents friends and family. As the flowers he picks symbolize Aerith, she is given Fillial regards.

So the flowers in front of a picture on Cloud's desk with Cloud's possessions is supposed to prove that Aerith is watching over everyone? When Nomura's quote specifically states that Calling is about Cloud and his feelings? Where does Nomura or anyone else say that the point of Aerith in the video is something completely unrelated to the theme of Calling, Cloud's feelings?

You seem to be confusing the Song and the credits sequence with each other. Calling is a song that was written about 20 years ago. It's a power ballad about needing to take action, and not wait. Cloud's issue during the movie is his inability to take action because he is crippled by his fear of failing.

I believe the quote says that Tifa is the girl that Cloud has a 'dim crush' on. Having a crush a girl he doesn't even know very well at the time- confirmed by Tifa herself in the Lifestream event- is supposed to endure five years? Where does it say that Cloud continues to harbor this crush in FFVII? Or AC for that matter? DoC?

Secretly fell in love with, actually. Dimly is not a proper use of the Kanji meaning obscured from view. And it never gives us any reason to suspect that these feelings have changed, statute of limitations of love argument aside. It's also far more than Cloud has ever said regarding Aerith, or has ever said about Cloud regarding Aerith. Aerith has only been referred to as a friend, or a maternal figure from Cloud's point of view.

Cloud says that he wanted to be noticed by everyone, including Tifa. That he wanted to be noticed by the girl he barely knew and who didn't acknowledge him.

Actually, he said he wanted to be noticed by Tifa. He wanted her notice. And yes, she did aknowledge him. She thought he was cute, she let him into the group on her birthday and she agreed to meet him out at the water tower. Outside of Cloud getting into fights, thinking that the group was stupid, that's pretty much all we know of their childhoods together. And getting into fights got Tifa's aknowledgement too. Everything we know about their past actually says Tifa kept aknowledging him.
Also, the lines are 'we weren't that close', not 'we barely knew each other'. There is a difference.
Though, definitely be careful with the 'barely know' argument. Cloud knew Aerith for a couple of weeks. He spent more time hanging around 7th Heaven before the game than the time he knew Aerith.

Actual quote, please? What feelings did they affirm? Does it specify? It could just as easily be feelings of friendship. Pretty vauge to rely on.

If they need a sequence in which their hearts call out to each other to realize they have feelings of friendship for each other, then, well, I have no clue how they live on a day to day setting. You are simply refusing to admit that the usage of feelings refers to romantic ones because you are emotionally invested against the idea of Cloud having feelings for Tifa.

Take a closer line at what they actually said.

They're talking about Tifa's words specifically, not the scene. That Tifa's lines can be taken in a more mature way than the creators had intended. Not Cloud's words, not the scene itself, only Tifa's line.

Actually, they intended for the dialogue to be mature. Originally, the morning after scene was much more explicit about the sexual act, and Kitase said it was too much, so they toned it down. They did not get rid of it, they toned it down. They made it more subtle.

Again, how does this prove he loves her as anything more than a friend? Cloud's talking about how he's always failed at starting a new life, and that this time is different because he has someone there with him. He doesn't say that she's there as a life partner or a romantic love.

Not because he has someone there with him. He's always had some help, someone standing by him. This time, he has Tifa with him, and he thinks he can succeed. He plans on having her by his side from that day on.

Read the passage again. It says that Cloud's with Tifa, that Cloud's helping her with the bar, that Tifa is helping Cloud with his buisness. It doesn't say that Barret and Cid think that they're a couple.

'The woman wears the pants' doesn't refer to a relationship now? Have you completely avoided some of the most cliche relationship phrases in existence now?

This proves he loves Tifa how?

On its own, it doesn't. But coupled with the fact that he isolates himself further and further as time goes on until the very start of AC, that he leaves because he is isolating himself to protect those precious to him, and that he becomes more withdrawn the happier he gets, and it's a very handy way to say that being with Tifa at 7th heaven makes Cloud happy.

I believe it says loved ones- your friends are your loved ones, are they not? Or do your loved ones automatically have to be romantic love interests now? It doesn't say that Cloud leaves to protect his wife/sweetheart/lover Tifa.

Actually, it specifically says 'those precious to him', but that's a bit verbose. And the statement refers to Cloud's reason for leaving his family and going into his exile.

Koibito can also be translated as 'one who loves', though that does not mean the love is mutual.

No, the one who loves would be Koi suru hito. As you've been told several times, the word contains the aspect of mutuality. It's like Fiancee in that regard. One cannot be a Fiancee in a vacuum, same as one cannot be a Koibito in a vacuum. It requires reciprocation.

Again, in that line, it says sweetheart- it has no mention of Cloud's name anywhere in that paragraph, or hints that he has any reference to the sweetheart remark at all.

Koibito and the word sweetheart share only one definition in common- that of people who are in a mutual romantic relationship. A mutual romantic relationship requires mutual parties. Who else, aside from Cloud, could be meant by this, and why do they not care that Tifa is living with a grown man and not them?

Ironically enough, later on in the RF it also states that Tifa shares a maternal bond with Cloud.

Yes, in the sense that she takes care of him, like she does the children. Take a look at the japanese for that section. It says 'takes care of', not 'has a maternal bond'. I'm going by the prime source wherever possible. You should too, if you think you have enough knowledge of Japanese to tell me, various dictionaries, teachers, etc. etc. that a Japanese word does not mean what they all agree it means.

Full quote please? Scan?

It's in the reunion files. P79 if I recall. The full quote is something along the lines of 'one of the first things cemented was that Cloud would together with Tifa. Everyone would be back home where they belong'. Now, people have argued this refers only to physical locality, but given that Cloud begins the movie physically separated from Tifa, it must refer to another form of togetherness.

Scan, please?

10th Aniv Ulti, I forget the exact page. I don't have the book on me at the moment, and I'm sure you can find it somewhere or other.

The quote goes on to say that the something warm is what Tifa wants. Not Cloud.

It doesn't say that Cloud doesn't want it. But we do know that the something that Cloud has distanced himself from in AC is his family, the ones precious to him, who make him happy. As what he runs from in KH2 is the same, it is something that makes Cloud happy that he runs from.

References? Quotes? Scans? Are we forgetting that another three people live in Seventh Heaven, among them Barret?

Barret has never been included as part of the family at 7th Heaven. Before Denzel arrived, their family was referred to as a threesome, and after he arrived, it was a foursome.

And that Cloud has his own room, as has been clearly shown?

He has his own office, but it can barely be called anything more than a guest room if we're talking domiciling. It has no dressers and barely a bed. It's more sparse than the camping kit he used for his brief sojourn in the church.

Tifa lived with Biggs, Barret, and Wedge in the slums, but I don't see people claiming that that proves TifaxBarret canon.

Don't forget Jessie. Tifa/ Jessie OTP. A group of rebels living together are slightly different circumstances than a grown man and a grown woman, when the woman has known feelings for the man (and, if we're not being obdurate, the man has the same for the woman) decide to move in together and proceed to raise children together, especially Denzel, who is 'theirs'.

Now, I'm glad you at least tried to knock down the short list, but you're getting ahead of yourself, Atlantie. Knocking my little incomplete list down does you no good at all if you cannot provide something to actually prop your side up. You ought to get onto the demonstrating the very basics, then, since nothing on your side can stand without those basics.

 

[llCHANCEll]

Lonestar47

Me:
she's asking the same question we've all been asking. Answers that was supposed to have been established by you guys. Now Id like to know if the answers have truly been given by you guys. Until then, I don't see why it has to be love in that so called mutual relationship until you guys provide something concrete for it.


You:
This logic of yours NOW, makes no connection to the statement I was referring to. “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:
Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa”

That is really interesting seeing that I basically said the same thing, just made it longer. Here, let me brake it down for you:
=========
Do you love me? == she's asking the same question we've all been asking. Answers that was supposed to have been established by you guys.

“I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question == Now Id like to know if the answers have truly been given by you guys. Until then, I don't see why it has to be love in that so called mutual relationship until you guys provide something concrete for it.
=============

Do you now see the connection?

Okay. So you give Alantie a pass? That’s very fair.

Well if you think I'm supposed to jump on other people's argument without any definite idea of what's going on behind every single statements they make. Well sure, it's not like I'm that busy with my own arguments here. I applaude the person who can do that. Yea...really..

What are YOU talking about? You have NOT. Someone’s asking you to, in my own word, “tackle” their short list.

No one is doing that. What are YOU talking about? Are you saying I'm "sidetracking" because I haven't been tackling this "short list" even though no one actually told me to?

So what’s the point of you bring up this “I love you” thing then? You know. You’re really good at going in circles.

That was me trying to justify why I'm not sidetracking my own arguments. But that's completely irrelevant now seeing that you're talking about something else that doesn't really apply to what I'm doing.

I think I’ve been clear on what I mean on the word. Address the facts posed. And since you claim they don’t establish anything. Prove it. Explain yourself.

Yea, it's not the word "tackle" that's the problem. It's just you thinking I have to tackle this short list just because people keep saying this for more than a couple pages now:

"no one wish to address the short list? None of that is open to interpretation either. "

and

"I guess what we'd like to see is some sort of C/A equivalent to this list. Chance is obviously not interested in providing it. Any others care to step up to the plate?"

...and because I'm simply "that person that likes to track down every single argument" because I'm that kind-hearted(..and fair), I manage to find that short list that's actually directed to someone else in another argument at page 15.

...and now here you are saying I'm "sidetracking" because I haven't really tackled this short list (that was directed to another person in another argument).

........

You know, after all that trouble, it'd be really nice right now for you to say "Will you please tackle the argument since no one is paying attention to it?"

Really? So the relationship between Squall and Rinoa is open-ended. As well as Yuna and Tidus? Because they didn’t proclaim their love for each other?

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to CXT and CXA, are those characters from other FF games? Cus Ive only played FF7 really. What games are they on?

Right. The short list. Are you ready to "tackle" it?

If you don't mind, I'd like my small request to be granted first.

How come so many cleirths claim Tifa’s love for cloud is one-sided? How do THEY know? You ask them. If they know Tifa’s feelings for Cloud, and the ultimania says mutual, that means Cloud must have the same feelings for Tifa.

Why are you making me ask em? You ask em, it's not my proof.

Why are you bringing up the anecdotal evidence thing again? I thought I made it clear that we should be passed that. Tackle the short list, Chance.

My request Lonestar.

Why are you bringing up the anecdotal evidence thing again? I thought I made it clear that we should be passed that. Tackle the short list, Chance.

See above

So you want someone to point a finger at your name and tell you to refute it?

Ya know after hearing this:

"no one wish to address the short list? None of that is open to interpretation either. "

and this:

"I guess what we'd like to see is some sort of C/A equivalent to this list. Chance is obviously not interested in providing it. Any others care to step up to the plate?"

..and specially this:

"Why won’t you try and tackle down the real arguments provided by clotis instead of sidetracking on the mechanics"

It'd be really nice to just hear you say "please" instead of expecting people to pay attention to a short list (that was directed to someone else in another argument) by telling them they're "sidetracking".

Yes, I'm a very sensitive person.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu

Well you haven't been reading correctly. I said/implied no such thing.

Not directly, but by the standards you apply to FF7, no FF game has a romantic relationship. The point was not to actually suggest you believed this, but to use your standards applied to other scenarios to show that your standards are not exactly reasonable, such as when I point out that by the evidence we are given in FF7's compilation, in any other game, show, what have you, no one would be denying the couplehood of the two parties involved.

Bolded part: Where did I say that?

When you invoked the razor as an excuse not to inquire as to the why of Tifa's asking.

Quotes?

*sigh* And people say I don't tackle real arguments. One has to wonder why....

Well, it's because you always evade actual arguments. You do so love to make red herrings. You can easily find the quotes from the game script. The other two are from the FF7 10th Ani Ulti, and echoed in the CCU.

You called it anecdotal evidence, not me:

"No, anecdotal evidence is fine just so long as you remember that that is all it is."---Ryu

Yes, and I'm saying you're applying a specific standard to it- that of anecdotal evidence being used in a conclusory manner- instead of using the anecdotal evidence being used to show possibility. Especially in the context of relationships.

I just gave you the meaning for it....Still flawed imo.

Would you like me to call it something other than anecdotal, then? Because I have no desire to quibble over meaningless semantics with you.

Anecdotal Evidence

1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay

I'd consider women experts in the field of testimony about women. Such testimony is not considered hearsay.

*sigh*

Do you actually have quotes for this?

Yes, I do. Don't you? If not, isn't that like coming into a gunfight without any bullets?
I'll have them later. I'm not currently at the location of my books.
Of course, it strikes me that direct quotes are largely useless to you, save the english half of reunion files.

Just curious, nothing more.

I suppose I shall take your word on that. Unless, of course, that's hearsay.

I think you should.

I see no reason why I should. Unless you'd like me to demand that you prove your initial claim here, using your own standards.
But then again, the Shroudy school of prevarication is based entirely on avoiding direct argumentation, isn't it?

I'm not...

Yet you try and refer people to Clerith.com, and you're registered over at CxA (or there's someone with your user name who talks a lot like you over there), so you'll forgive me if I concluded that you were arguing for C/A.
For the assemblage, it might behoove you to openly declare what you are advocating. You know, open and direct discourse, devoid of sophism.

Yea, you know how it goes...

Yes. I do. You never make any points, claim to be arguing towards neutrality but never attack the C/A points, hem and haw about other people's posts, and herring, herring, herring. You're rather much textbooking from the shroudy book at the moment. That's not the way to prevail in a written debate. That's the way to make sure that your opponents and the lurkers grow disgusted with the way you conduct yourself.

You might want to check out clerith.com, and unlike that list. It actually has "real quotes" on em.

I never claimed my list was comprehensive, complete, or even word for word. The very point is that it is comprised solely of examples that came to mind at the time. Simple quotes that nearly everyone has access to. It's not intended to be a comprehensive list. It's meant to act as a short example of the wealth of quotes the C/T side may point to.
As for "real quotes" at Clerith.com, I must disagree, especially given their difficulty in deciding on translations amongst themselves, much less in debate with people who are opposed or uninvolved with the LTD. Unless, of course, you were using the quotes to indicate sarcasm.

 

[llCHANCEll]

Ryushikaze

Not directly, but by the standards you apply to FF7, no FF game has a romantic relationship. The point was not to actually suggest you believed this, but to use your standards applied to other scenarios to show that your standards are not exactly reasonable, such as when I point out that by the evidence we are given in FF7's compilation, in any other game, show, what have you, no one would be denying the couplehood of the two parties involved.

Why would you use the same standard on all FF games? Aren't they different from one another? With differrent situations?

When you invoked the razor as an excuse not to inquire as to the why of Tifa's asking.

No I never invoke the razor as an excuse not to inquire as to the why of Tifa's asking. I dismissed it simply because it complicates the situation(I.e bring more assumptions to it).

Well, it's because you always evade actual arguments. You do so love to make red herrings. You can easily find the quotes from the game script. The other two are from the FF7 10th Ani Ulti, and echoed in the CCU.

O yea sure, I'm not the one who brought up anecdotal evidence and such in this argument...and now you're making me look for your own proof?

How are you guys differrent than clerith.com again?

Yes, and I'm saying you're applying a specific standard to it- that of anecdotal evidence being used in aconclusory manner- instead of using the anecdotal evidence being used to show possibility. Especially in the context of relationships.

Yea, that's exactly what anecdotal evidence do. It only shows possibility, which is still flawed.

Would you like me to call it something other than anecdotal, then? Because I have no desire to quibble over meaningless semantics with you.

Your call, it's not my statement.

I'd consider women experts in the field of testimony about women. Such testimony is not considered hearsay.

You saying you source is "reliable" now?

Yes, I do. Don't you? If not, isn't that like coming into a gunfight without any bullets?

What quotes?

I'll have them later. I'm not currently at the location of my books.
Of course, it strikes me that direct quotes are largely useless to you, save the english half of reunion files.

Ill be waiting for em.

I see no reason why I should. Unless you'd like me to demand that you prove your initial claim here, using your own standards.
But then again, the Shroudy school of prevarication is based entirely on avoiding direct argumentation, isn't it?

I always have my bible of open-endedness at the ready.

Yet you try and refer people to Clerith.com, and you're registered over at CxA (or there's someone with your user name who talks a lot like you over there), so you'll forgive me if I concluded that you were arguing for C/A.
For the assemblage, it might behoove you to openly declare what you are advocating. You know, open and direct discourse, devoid of sophism.

Sure, it's not like every cleris share the same views in there. I'm an advocate of the game's open-ended theme. That hasn't change. Been saying that in a couple of pages now.

Yes. I do. You never make any points, claim to be arguing towards neutrality but never attack the C/A points, hem and haw about other people's posts, and herring, herring, herring. You're rather much textbooking from the shroudy book at the moment. That's not the way to prevail in a written debate. That's the way to make sure that your opponents and the lurkers grow disgusted with the way you conduct yourself.

Arguing towards neutrality? I'm a cleris, not because I think they're the true couple. I'm cleris simply because I like em. I do however believe that the story is open-ended....

Which some of you guys don't agree with...

This is how an argument/debate starts Ryu. It really has nothing to do with with clotis/cleris. Just your stance and beliefs.... So far, no cleris have been arguing against me on that point...Only you guys, so what do you want me to do here exactly?

Oh and please don't expect me to go around looking for those people who disagrees with me. Sarcasm aside, I really can't track every single posts in this topic.

I never claimed my list was comprehensive, complete, or even word for word. The very point is that it is comprised solely of examples that came to mind at the time. Simple quotes that nearly everyone has access to. It's not intended to be a comprehensive list. It's meant to act as a short example of the wealth of quotes the C/T side may point to.
As for "real quotes" at Clerith.com, I must disagree, especially given their difficulty in deciding on translations amongst themselves, much less in debate with people who are opposed or uninvolved with the LTD. Unless, of course, you were using the quotes to indicate sarcasm.

Yea, people expect me to tackle that for some reason when its authenticity is already in question. That same short list that somehow prove cloti for some unknown reason.

At least clerith.com made a bit more effort than that short list. It's just funny how you guys never answered my question on why you guys are so much better than that site.

 

[Rydia]

Hey guys, don't let this thread get too heated or this thread will be closed and LTD debates will be banned from the forum.

Eventually, you are all just going to have to come to a point where you agree to disagree, because no one is obviously going to convince the other side that their pairing is the OTP.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Why would you use the same standard on all FF games? Aren't they different from one another? With differrent situations?

They must still be relatable to the audience which they wish to reach, and must share some commonality. There is a reasonable standard that one can apply to fiction rather universally. That is the standard I apply. Your standards are rather curious

No I never invoke the razor as an excuse not to inquire as to the why of Tifa's asking. I dismissed it simply because it complicates the situation(I.e bring more assumptions to it).

Again, the razor only applies to unnecessary additions. In people, especially when we are discussion of emotions, motivation, the why, is important. Context, is important. You ignore those, you are omitting necessary elements, and misusing the razor.

Asking for back up is a red herring now?

That in particular, no. But quite a lot of what you are doing, yes.

...and now you're making me look for your own proof?

No, I'm telling you that you can easily find it in the mean time. I am currently away from my books and do not have a scanner. I can provide merely page numbers and a few pictures that are online.

How are you guys differrent than clerith.com again?

None of us have a record of wanting to be one of the people in the pairing we are advocating?
I lack of a desire to 'ship?'
A use of a consistent, parsimonious standard and theories which rather neatly explain the actions and motivations of characters throughout the timeline without need for ptolemic epicycles of spin?
Oh, and because I don't have an incredible history of making up fake japanese people who get interviewed in fictional restaurants, or of having to backpedal heavily from previous positions.
Rival Orphanages. I still get a chuckle.

Yea, that's exactly what anecdotal evidence do. It only shows possibility, which is still flawed.

I see you don't care to say how. If I have possibility, parsimony, and consistency, so where is the flaw in making the reasonable conclusion that she asks because she is seeking reassurance due to some sort of insecurity?
Is it simply because the evidence I provided was from a personal example, instead of a fictional example?
And what does my usage being flaws say of claim, which has neither parsimony or consistency within the context? It has no evidence period, at least none that you have provided.

Your call, it's not my statement.

But it is apparently your beef. Would 'as a point of reference from my own life, but by no means based solely on this personal point of reference' work for you? What asinine standard would you need to accept that it is not unheard of for women to seek reaffirmation of their partner's love? I mean, Stella's horse's mouth is apparently insufficient. Will I need a signed affidavit?

These "women" you speak of, you saying they're "reliable" now?

I don't recall ever saying that women weren't reliable. If I must assure you, however, yes, these women are women, and I see no reason why so many of them would lie about how they sometimes feel in relationships, or allow, or even perpetuate the usage of this trope in fiction.

What quotes?

The quotes I will be providing as best I am able, given that my books are currently at home, the actual quotes are in Japanese, and I have no scanner.

Ill be waiting for em.

Well, you could go looking for them, as well. If AdventChildren.net is still up, they have some translations of each available, though I forget if they have any direct translations or summations.

I always have my bible of open-endedness at the ready.

I know you do, but your bible of open endedness is not actually an argument, unless you can actually show that it is open ended. 'There is no pairing' or 'We are allowed to choose the pairing' are both claims that need to be validated, not the default claim of 'We cannot determine.'

Sure, it's not like every cleris share the same views in there. I'm an advocate of the game's open-ended theme. That hasn't change. Been saying that in a couple of pages now.

How is the game's theme open-ended?
Also, you do admit to being a C/A advocate, yes? Seeing as you advocate C/A, but deny that the game or compilation ends with a definite C/A pairing, what leads you to this conclusion?
I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, exactly.

Arguing towards neutrality? I'm a cleris, not because I think they're the true couple. I'm cleris simply because I like em. I do however believe that the story is open-ended....

Which some of you guys don't agree with...

Yes, but some of your fellow C/A advocates also believe that the story is not open ended. Do you take issue with them?

This is how an argument/debate starts Ryu. It really has nothing to do with with clotis/cleris. Just your stance and beliefs....

I know. But in such a situation as the LTD, it helps to be very open and explicit, especially as I've run into people who try and shoehorn 'open-ended' into 'Definitely ends C/A' before. Sometimes in the same sentence. Forgive me, I'm jaded and cynical.

So far, no cleris have been arguing against me on that point...Only you guys, so what do you want me to do here exactly?

Detail why you hold for open-endedness. Detail your standards, your evidence, and why such evidence leads towards your conclusions. Please do not simply snipe at the opposition. Stripping the other side down does not validate your own. No matter how utterly invalid the opposition's point is, nothing validates your point except supporting it.

Oh and please don't expect me to go around looking for those people who disagrees with me. Sarcasm aside, I really can't track every single posts in this topic.

I don't expect you to, but I would appreciate a certain leeway in return.

Yea, people expect me to tackle that for some reason when its authenticity is already in question.

If authenticity being question is grounds for not tackling something, then I have little reason to address a lot of the points put forth. It is still a good idea to deal with it.
Especially when 'tackling' does not, in this case, mean 'rebut.'

That same short list that somehow prove cloti for some unknown reason.

Actually, the short list is just that, the short list- It is evidence for Cloud and Tifa being a couple, but it's hardly the full list. It's simply a short list of points from various periods during the compilation that come together to demonstrate the consistency and continuity of an idea. It claims to be nothing more.

At least clerith.com made a bit more effort than that short list. It's just funny how you guys never answered my question on why you guys are so much better than that site.

They put effort, but effort doesn't always mean better.
My admittedly lazy and incomplete list is a simple chronology of events based on the game, sourcebooks, and interviews that refer only to the actual continuity (the KH mention is included only because it specifically refers to AC as well) that go from Cloud's first intent to the current end of the compilation. It was put together with a minimum of effort to show how easy it is to show that Cloud and Tifa are surrounded by statements that, were the names removed, anyone would agree refer to two people in a romantic relationship, and to show how simple this all was. My only assumption is that SE is going to remain consistent in describing the relationship between two people they decide to portray in a particular light, and speak of and portray them that way repeatedly.
The problem for the people writing for Clerith and the old geocities site is that firstly, they have to jump through logical hoops both to obtain their evidences and to deny the implications of these various statements from the crew. Take a look at the fuss they've been making over Koibito, for example. Or the wierd spin about Cloud mistaking Aerith for his mother.
But even more than that, my short list is an invitation. Addressing it is nice, but tackling the list is about presenting a similar set of examples to even show the basics of the C/A side.
The biggest failing I have noted from people who argue for a C/A conclusion, or even a possibility, is an assumption of the consequent, that Cloud had feelings for Aerith that were somehow above and beyond the scope that the rest of the crew felt towards her, that he actually felt a romantic intent. They always seem to assume it is so and work backwards, and this is not sound thinking or argumentation.

I still try and give people who originate from the CxA forums the benefit of the doubt, but I really have no desire to counter all the random myriad points the site tries to make, or conduct a proxy battle with the writers. I'll stick to dealing with the arguments of people who actually come to confront me. If you wish a specific point they make addressed, let me know they are making it, present it to me, and I shall attempt to deal with it, but otherwise, please no C-C/C-V Proxy arguments. Those get tired very quickly.
That's not directed at you in particular, I just want to make sure it doesn't happen, as it does with far too great of frequency.

I shall be back later with a few of the quotes, and a bit of the basic theorem I am employing.

And Rydia, noted, but I would like to point out that I do not reasonably expect to demonstrate to my opponents that my stance is correct and theirs wrong. Doing so is simply icing on the cake. The real purpose of any debate is to sounding board for the fence sitters, the stragglers.
That, and it's fun.

 

[Fusionist]

I don't want to interrupt the riveting debate happening here (seriously, I just learned a whole lot of stuff from reading what's been going on O_O), but I gotta ask (and I'm sure this can be explained easily ), but why is it in the movie AC, after Cloud was shot by Yazoo and Loz, and there's that explosion, he feels Aerith's hand on his forehead and refers to her as "kaasan" (mother)? Unless he has some Oedipus complex, that doesn't sound romantic, does it?

And she's not alone, Zack as well is with her encouraging Cloud to live. I don't know what to say about Clouds feeling the original FFVII game, but AC he's coupled Zack and Aerith together with his guilt, it's not about a specific person he regrets over, therefore his guilt can't be considered love, unless he also romantically loved Zack (which if fun to think about xD).

And if you want to debate who is canon, isn't it a fact that Zack/Aerith is canon, therefore negating Cloud/Aerith as being canon?

I admit I'm just speaking from observation from what I've seen, I don't have any references to philosophies or interviews from creators and the like to back up any arguments >__<

 

[Serene]

@Fusionist: I suppose one could make the case that Cloud was out of it and didn't know who he was talking to when he said "mother." Still, the choices the creative team made say a lot to me. They describe both Aerith and Tifa as having a maternal essence, but in a different way. How is it different? Well, one of them is called a "koibito," the other they chose to have Cloud call "mother." Interesting choice, yes? It might not be the way I'd go if I were writing the long-awaited reunion between lovers: Him calling her mother, while she and her long-lost love stand over him.

 

[llCHANCEll]

They must still be relatable to the audience which they wish to reach, and must share some commonality. There is a reasonable standard that one can apply to fiction rather universally. That is the standard I apply. Your standards are rather curious

Yet those standards still has limits depending on each game's similiarities and difference. I don't suppose you have this idea that I would use the exact same standard on different games now do you?

Again, the razor only applies to unnecessary additions. In people, especially when we are discussion of emotions, motivation, the why, is important. Context, is important. You ignore those, you are omitting necessary elements, and misusing the razor.

What gave you the idea that we were discussing emotions and motivations?

That in particular, no. But quite a lot of what you are doing, yes.

Such as?

No, I'm telling you that you can easily find it in the mean time. I am currently away from my books and do not have a scanner. I can provide merely page numbers and a few pictures that are online.

At least provide those picture and those page numbers.

None of us have a record of wanting to be one of the people in the pairing we are advocating?
I lack of a desire to 'ship?'
A use of a consistent, parsimonious standard and theories which rather neatly explain the actions and motivations of characters throughout the timeline without need for ptolemic epicycles of spin?
Oh, and because I don't have an incredible history of making up fake japanese people who get interviewed in fictional restaurants, or of having to backpedal heavily from previous positions.
Rival Orphanages. I still get a chuckle.

Wow, at least you got "page numbers" and "pictures" right? Yay....

I see you don't care to say how. If I have possibility, parsimony, and consistency, so where is the flaw in making the reasonable conclusion that she asks because she is seeking reassurance due to some sort of insecurity?

You might wanna elaborate, on those two. I understand the possibility, which doesn't really prove anything. Parsimony and consistency is still in question which doesn't really make your conclusion reasonable as of now.

Is it simply because the evidence I provided was from a personal example, instead of a fictional example?

How would fictional example make a differrence? This is all simply a question of reliability.

And what does my usage being flaws say of claim, which has neither parsimony or consistency within the context? It has no evidence period, at least none that you have provided.

You seem to have this notion that you already established those two factors....How so?

But it is apparently your beef. Would 'as a point of reference from my own life, but by no means based solely on this personal point of reference' work for you? What asinine standard would you need to accept that it is not unheard of for women to seek reaffirmation of their partner's love? I mean, Stella's horse's mouth is apparently insufficient. Will I need a signed affidavit?

You seem to have idea that I don't believe that some women seek reaffirmation of their partner's love....Why is that?

I don't recall ever saying that women weren't reliable. If I must assure you, however, yes, these women are women, and I see no reason why so many of them would lie about how they sometimes feel in relationships, or allow, or even perpetuate the usage of this trope in fiction.

Changed the statement already to the context I meant:

"You saying you source is "reliable" now?"

Would your response still be the same?

The quotes I will be providing as best I am able, given that my books are currently at home, the actual quotes are in Japanese, and I have no scanner.

Japanese....interesting. You wouldnt happen to have any official translation of it now would you?

Well, you could go looking for them, as well. If AdventChildren.net is still up, they have some translations of each available, though I forget if they have any direct translations or summations.

Nope, AC.net is down. This is gonna take a while then.

I know you do, but your bible of open endedness is not actually an argument, unless you can actually show that it is open ended. 'There is no pairing' or 'We are allowed to choose the pairing' are both claims that need to be validated, not the default claim of 'We cannot determine.'

It's interesting how you dismissed that bolded part out without actual reasons. How so?

How is the game's theme open-ended?

None has yet to determine the actual pairing?

Also, you do admit to being a C/A advocate, yes? Seeing as you advocate C/A, but deny that the game or compilation ends with a definite C/A pairing, what leads you to this conclusion?

Just the idea that love can't really be defined that easily. Everyone seem to have a different view on it.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, exactly.

Alrite...

Yes, but some of your fellow C/A advocates also believe that the story is not open ended. Do you take issue with them?

If they argue with me, Ill argue back.

I know. But in such a situation as the LTD, it helps to be very open and explicit, especially as I've run into people who try and shoehorn 'open-ended' into 'Definitely ends C/A' before. Sometimes in the same sentence. Forgive me, I'm jaded and cynical.

That can be applied to the other side, but I try to be optimistic.

Detail why you hold for open-endedness. Detail your standards, your evidence, and why such evidence leads towards your conclusions. Please do not simply snipe at the opposition. Stripping the other side down does not validate your own. No matter how utterly invalid the opposition's point is, nothing validates your point except supporting it.

Just the fact that this LTD had been going for more than a decade, and yet nothing had been determined from my pov. ...and no, it doesn't really do anything when I strip the other side.It's just me simply disagreeing....

I don't expect you to, but I would appreciate a certain leeway in return.

Leeway in what exactly?

If authenticity being question is grounds for not tackling something, then I have little reason to address a lot of the points put forth. It is still a good idea to deal with it.
Especially when 'tackling' does not, in this case, mean 'rebut.'

How exactly do you want me to deal with this? It's simply your own words, what would you say if a cleris just comes in and say:

Cloud loves Aerith --- Ultimania XVVIIIII

Actually, the short list is just that, the short list- It is evidence for Cloud and Tifa being a couple, but it's hardly the full list. It's simply a short list of points from various periods during the compilation that come together to demonstrate the consistency and continuity of an idea. It claims to be nothing more.

You guys want me to tackle this how exactly?

They put effort, but effort doesn't always mean better.
My admittedly lazy and incomplete list is a simple chronology of events based on the game, sourcebooks, and interviews that refer only to the actual continuity (the KH mention is included only because it specifically refers to AC as well) that go from Cloud's first intent to the current end of the compilation. It was put together with a minimum of effort to show how easy it is to show that Cloud and Tifa are surrounded by statements that, were the names removed, anyone would agree refer to two people in a romantic relationship, and to show how simple this all was. My only assumption is that SE is going to remain consistent in describing the relationship between two people they decide to portray in a particular light, and speak of and portray them that way repeatedly.
The problem for the people writing for Clerith and the old geocities site is that firstly, they have to jump through logical hoops both to obtain their evidences and to deny the implications of these various statements from the crew. Take a look at the fuss they've been making over Koibito, for example. Or the wierd spin about Cloud mistaking Aerith for his mother.
But even more than that, my short list is an invitation. Addressing it is nice, but tackling the list is about presenting a similar set of examples to even show the basics of the C/A side.
The biggest failing I have noted from people who argue for a C/A conclusion, or even a possibility, is an assumption of the consequent, that Cloud had feelings for Aerith that were somehow above and beyond the scope that the rest of the crew felt towards her, that he actually felt a romantic intent. They always seem to assume it is so and work backwards, and this is not sound thinking or argumentation.

I still try and give people who originate from the CxA forums the benefit of the doubt, but I really have no desire to counter all the random myriad points the site tries to make, or conduct a proxy battle with the writers. I'll stick to dealing with the arguments of people who actually come to confront me. If you wish a specific point they make addressed, let me know they are making it, present it to me, and I shall attempt to deal with it, but otherwise, please no C-C/C-V Proxy arguments. Those get tired very quickly.
That's not directed at you in particular, I just want to make sure it doesn't happen, as it does with far too great of frequency.

Critisicm aside, you really still do need to work on that list of yours before even presenting it. It's always easy give out a point that's unsupported.

I shall be back later with a few of the quotes, and a bit of the basic theorem I am employing.

I'll check it out...

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't want to interrupt the riveting debate happening here (seriously, I just learned a whole lot of stuff from reading what's been going on O_O), but I gotta ask (and I'm sure this can be explained easily ), but why is it in the movie AC, after Cloud was shot by Yazoo and Loz, and there's that explosion, he feels Aerith's hand on his forehead and refers to her as "kaasan" (mother)? Unless he has some Oedipus complex, that doesn't sound romantic, does it?

No, you're right, it does not.

And she's not alone, Zack as well is with her encouraging Cloud to live. I don't know what to say about Clouds feeling the original FFVII game, but AC he's coupled Zack and Aerith together with his guilt, it's not about a specific person he regrets over, therefore his guilt can't be considered love, unless he also romantically loved Zack (which if fun to think about xD).

Well, he DOES react more emotionally to Zack's demise than Aerith's, so...

And if you want to debate who is canon, isn't it a fact that Zack/Aerith is canon, therefore negating Cloud/Aerith as being canon?

Not if you subscribe to the expiration date of love idea, which a lot of C/A advocates do. Of course, one does wonder why the expiration applies to Zack and Aerith and Cloud and Tifa, but not to the love they claim Cloud has for Aerith...

I admit I'm just speaking from observation from what I've seen, I don't have any references to philosophies or interviews from creators and the like to back up any arguments >__<

In some ways, the PoV of a less involved fan is an excellent viewpoint. Sort of shows what people see just from playing the games and watching the movie, without all the big back and forth between the involved parties.
[[Deleted] Please only target evidence, not the debater.]

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yet those standards still has limits depending on each game's similiarities and difference. I don't

suppose you have this idea that I would use the exact same standard on different games now do you?

I suppose I have this idea that there is a reasonable standard that someone can use even on different games

and pieces of fiction. One that people have been using for literary analysis for decades, centuries, even.
I'm curious what it is about the FF7 circumstance that the reasonable standard of fiction no longer

applies, why it must be spelt out in itty bitty detail.

What gave you the idea that we were discussing emotions and motivations?

... Well, what else do you call it when you consider why someone says something?

Such as?

Focusing on a single sentence fragment of what I say, then ignoring the rest of the paragraph, for example.

You've done that a few times. Semantics monkeying, for another.

At least provide those picture and those page numbers.

Cool your jets.

Wow, at least you got "page numbers" and "pictures" right? Yay....

Red Herring. Has nothing to do with the points raised against clerith.com.

You might wanna elaborate, on those two. I understand the possibility, which doesn't really prove

anything. Parsimony and consistency is still in question which doesn't really make your conclusion

reasonable as of now.

A man and a woman live together, and they are also taking care of several kids. They go through a rough

patch, and the man becomes emotionally distant. The woman asks if the man loves her. Do you conclude that

the man and woman have no prior romantic involvement and that she chooses now to ask that question, or that

she now worries that the love has waned and wants reaffirmation? Ignore the names. Look at the situation.

How would fictional example make a differrence? This is all simply a question of reliability.

Right. Then I'd like to ask you to provide evidence of reliability for your explanation of the events in

question, then. Don't apply a standard you won't hold yourself to.

You seem to have this notion that you already established those two factors....How so?

I note you avoid the noting that what you have said is also devoid of evidence.

You seem to have idea that I don't believe that some women seek reaffirmation of their partner's

love....Why is that?

Well, the fighting of it tooth and nail, for one. I mean, you did raise quite a stink about anecdotal

evidence for someone who agrees that it is possible.

Changed the statement already to the context I meant:

"You saying you source is "reliable" now?"

Would your response still be the same?

I would find them suitable as a witness in a court of law.

Japanese....interesting. You wouldnt happen to have any official translation of it now would

you?

There are no official translations of half of the quotes involved. Even if there were, they'd be beholden

to confirm to the prime source.

Nope, AC.net is down. This is gonna take a while then.

Why not ask your fellows at CxA? They certainly have scans, do they not?

It's interesting how you dismissed that bolded part out without actual reasons. How so?

Because 'we cannot determine based on the present evidence' is the most honest summation of the default

state that came to mind.

None has yet to determine the actual pairing?

Only in the same sense as the ID Crowd's statement that there is still serious controversy about the theory

of evolution.

Just the idea that love can't really be defined that easily. Everyone seem to have a different view

on it.

And yet, the idea of fictional romances are based on there being common, identifiable, cues by which one

can identify or portray a romance between two people and the progression of such.

If they argue with me, Ill argue back.

So, you are simply reactive to their claims that there is a positive C/A answer?

That can be applied to the other side, but I try to be optimistic.

Be that as it may, I've run into too many of the type to not become suspicious when I see what have

previously been key warning signs.

Just the fact that this LTD had been going for more than a decade, and yet nothing had been

determined from my pov. ...and no, it doesn't really do anything when I strip the other side.It's just me

simply disagreeing....

Nothing? I think you'll find quite a lot has been determined.
But again, the existence of disagreement does not mean that there is no answer or no winner. I again point

to the 'teach the controversy' angle of the ID movement.

Leeway in what exactly?

... Can you not determine that based on the surrounding context? I mean... really.

How exactly do you want me to deal with this? It's simply your own words, what would you say if a

cleris just comes in and say:

Cloud loves Aerith --- Ultimania XVVIIIII

I'd first check to make sure the book existed. Then I'd ask around, see if there was anyone else who'd

heard of it. Afterwards, I'd try and find the book myself and confirm the quote myself, even as I asked for

a source.
The thing is though, the short list was comprised of a list of quotes that I had thought everyone was aware

of. Disagreed about the particulars of, perhaps, but agreed existed. You're the first to dispute their very

existence, which makes me curious where you've been the last few years.

You guys want me to tackle this how exactly?

By providing evidence of initial intent, for one. There can be no possible C/A pairing if there's no

romantic intent. But it's not just you, it's for anyone to try and provide this sort of thing.

Critisicm aside, you really still do need to work on that list of yours before even presenting it. It's

always easy give out a point that's unsupported.

Sometimes, it's just as easy to give out a valid one as well.

I'll check it out...

First, some of the points from the short list- the few that are in english.

On p19, Nomura, character designer and director states "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character (Lit- Tifa has many standpoints from which she is viewed). She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle.

It's worth noting that the 'like' is only applied to the mother in the japanese, and that the word translated as 'sweetheart' is 'koitbito', which is basically the equivalent of 'someone's sweetheart' or 'a pair of sweethearts,' IE- someone in a relationship. Meanings referring to someone in a relationship are the only meaning these two words share. Serene's links from completely uninvolved parties should suffice to show that. Being someone's sweetheart/ beloved, the question inevitably arises, whose beloved is she?


Nojima, writer states on p70 of Reunion Files "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everyone would be living back home where they belonged. Two years is too short a time to forget the past entirely, but it's still a pretty long time... And two years older was a good age for Marlene to start talking a little." The reason Nojima narrows the location down the the area surrounding their house, he says, was to create a sense of crisis close to home.

'Cloud and Tifa would be together.' 'Where they belonged.' QED.

A minor bonus note-

P21- Nomura states- After establishing the essence of Tifa's 3d model quite quickly, we had a hard time agreeing on the fine details. At time we wanted her to look stricter, while at other times we wanted a bit more compassion in her eyes. But then we thought she wouldn't balance well with Cloud's character. This sort of thing went on and on, but when Ms. Ito was selected as a voice actor for Tifa, we took a lot of traits from her and blended them into Tifa's final appearance.

Making sure Tifa was visually balanced with Cloud was apparently a major factor in nailing down her character model.

I'll be back later with the 10th aniv and CCU page numbers.

Rydia, I'm not sure why you deleted that portion of my post above. I wasn't 'targeting' anyone, just making the point that in debates, it's the fence sitters you are really aiming to convince, which I can see really nothing objectionable about.