FFVII: LTD Debate Thread

[Infinity D]

Chance,

That is really interesting seeing that I basically said the same thing, just made it longer. Here, let me brake it down for you:

=========
Do you love me? == she's asking the same question we've all been asking. Answers that was supposed to have been established by you guys.“I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question == Now Id like to know if the answers have truly been given by you guys. Until then, I don't see why it has to be love in that so called mutual relationship until you guys provide something concrete for it.
=============

Do you now see the connection?

Look. In regards to substance, your statement indeed has a connection. But in terms of logic, you have not made the connection with your original statement. Any grade school kid can grasps the logic of someone who gives a simple statement: “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa” You do not need to break it down for me as if I can’t grasp it. Your logic from the original statement involved accepting the idea that two people can't love each other because of a single dialogue question. It does not involve your going on about whether or not Tifa’s asking the same questions “we’ve all been asking.” By going on with that, you’re simply justifying your reasons for stating your logic (which is ot anwering my question), but you’re not explaining what your logic is at all. Which is something I had originally asked for [since you said my original assumption of your logic is incorrect, else I really don't need to ask]. It’s actually kinda silly that I have to tell you this.

In case you're confused, this is our back and forth convo regarding this logic thing.

1)
YOU: I really wouldn't know, that is the mystery of that qoute that was suppose to prove that Cloud and Tifa are a couple. I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:

Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa

Guess it's open to interpretation eh?

ME: It's really not a mystery. By your logic, anyone can easily fall out of love simply because they ask that question: do you love me? By your logic, if my girlfriend of two years questions my love for her (because I’ve been emo and it worried her) then it automatically meant that our relationship was not established out of love.

2)

YOU: Who says that was my logic? I don't even know if one of them were in love iin the first place.... I think you guys were suppose to prove that.

ME: Uhh. What is your logic then when you say: “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa”

So what is your logic?

3)

YOU: My logic is simple, she's asking the same question we've all been asking. Answers that was supposed to have been established by you guys. Now Id like to know if the answers have truly been given by you guys. Until then, I don't see why it has to be love in that so called mutual relationship until you guys provide something concrete for it.


ME: This logic of yours NOW, makes no connection to the statement I was referring to. “I also don't see it being love since Tifa asked Cloud this question:
Do you love me? --- Cloud to Tifa”

Note. The underlined quote. It seems you've been ignoring the logic of your own statement and confused my inquiry of "what's your logic" to be "why did you say that?".

Well if you think I'm supposed to jump on other people's argument without any definite idea of what's going on behind every single statements they make. Well sure, it's not like I'm that busy with my own arguments here. I applaude the person who can do that. Yea...really..

Really? Nobody asked you to jump on Ryu’s anecdotal evidence. I still stand by what I had originally said. If you can downplay Ryu’s argument because it is based on anecdotal evidence, then you can downplay Alantie’s argument because hers is based on, even worse, just an ideal generalization.
Funny. This exchanging back and forth brings up nothing new. My first post on this thread could have sufficed. *shrug*

I can even repost it. I’m telling ya. We’re going in circles. Hence. Most probably I won’t reply to your comments if it does not involve the LTD evidence. IMO, everything else is sidetracking. My opinion.

No one is doing that. What are YOU talking about? Are you saying I'm "sidetracking" because I haven't been tackling this "short list" even though no one actually told me to?

Okay. Silly that we have to address this again. You said that you have been tackling real arguments. I haven’t seen it. Sorry. And it’s not just about you not addressing the short list. The thing is. I haven’t seen you tackling any arguments at all. Hence, the reason I directed you to the short list so I might actually see you breaking down everything mentioned as unworthy to be proofs. But I guess that won’t happen.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to CXT and CXA, are those characters from other FF games? Cus Ive only played FF7 really. What games are they on?

They're FF8 and FFX. None of those couples declared “I love you” but no one is claiming they’re open-ended like they are here.

Why are you making me ask em? You ask em, it's not my proof.

It was a rhetorical question really. I guess you don’t see the connection I was trying to make regarding the words “ mutual feelings.” Your comments seem to suggest that you believe Cloud cares for no one since you’re not backing any side with proofs. I guess like someone mentioned, I don’t know exactly what your stance is. Although you claim that this whole ordeal is opened to interpretation.

If you don't mind, I'd like my small request to be granted first.
My request Lonestar.It'd be really nice to just hear you say "please" instead of expecting people to pay attention to a short list (that was directed to someone else in another argument) by telling them they're "sidetracking".

Unfortunately. I do mind. It’s not my job to negotiate people into debating. I just wonder why you’re here in a debate thread to debate and won’t debate because no one has formally asked you to.



Okay. This is for anyone. Can anyone tell me why Cloud was able to hear Tifa’s voice in his heart and vice versa? [Confirmed in the Highwind Scene in both the low and high version]

 

[Stella]

Ok, tell me why.

As I and the rest of the Cloti supporters have already stated at leat a thousand times by now, Cloud tells Tifa he has hope for the future as long as she is by his side, and proceeds to open a business and raise two children with her. His choice, therefore, is clearly Tifa. How can the story be open-ended when he has clearly picked who he wants to be with?

I already know you don't agree with that though, so any response you make will just be to point out how you don't think Cloud stating such a thing proves anything romantic is going on between him and Tifa. Maybe instead of finding a loop-hole in everything I say so that you can start yet another argument, you should try enlightening us with some of the reasons you believe Cloud and Aerith were the clear couple or why you see it as open-ended. Everytime I respond to something you say it's just to defend something I have said. I have yet to see you post any of the reasons you believe so much in your side of this debate.

As for Clerith.com, it is not my responsibility to go and read through everything there just so that I can understand your side of the argument. If there is something on that site that you believe truly proves the Cloud and Aerith pairing, then post it here as I and the others have done to back up our side.

It never said romantic. It could familial or friendly. Take your pick. Let's just hope you're going to say something different this time.

When someone used the term "realizes their feelings for each other", generally people understand that means in a romantic sense. Cloud and Tifa realizing their "friendly" feelings of "familial" feelings for each other just doesn't make any sense, especially in that context. Besides, Cloud and Tifa already considered themselves friends at that point, and had somewhat of a familial connection as well because they were the only people left from Nibelheim. Therefore, how could they just suddenly realize "oh yay, we're friends!" right towards the end of the game? That goes against everything Cloud says in that scene as well, such as "My heart was calling out too..I think it said Tifa". Are you trying to imply that what he actually means is "Tifa, my heart is calling out for you... I want you as a friend!"?

Full quote please? Scan?

I already posted this a few pages back-

One last bit of evidence before I go to sleep-
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8792/tugetha11jg.png

 

[Alantie]

Thanks for the lesson on language. lulz

Those links don't say anything different than the ones we provided; in fact, they back up what we're saying. So I thank you for the additional sources. But do you have any links that say 恋人means something other than lover/sweetheart?

Oh, you're welcome. It clearly needed to be given since the concept of a word having multiple meanings cannot be grasped. And still hasn't. Also, since apparently since selective reading is a practice alive and well, I suggest you go ahead and read the links again.

On the contrary, it's quite normal. I've always had maternal feelings for my boyfriends, and so have my friends. One friend lays out her husband's clothes every morning. OK, that's taking it to a creepy level, but still. The point is that maternal feelings and romantic feelings are not mutually exclusive, especially for a man who needs as much mothering as Cloud does.

Sure, it's normal for a person to be mothering to a person they love and take care of them. It isn't normal for them to feel maternal towards a boyfriend/girlfriend, unless you go for the whole Jocasta/Oedipus thing. There's a difference between mothing a person and feeling maternal towards them.
In case that still doesn't make sense to you, let me put it this way. Quistis from FFVIII had been portrayed as desiring a romantic relationship with Squall at first. But as time progresses and she unravels her forgotten memories and tangled emotions, she comes to realize that she feels more like a mother to Squall. Likewise, Tifa has been shown to pursue romantic feelings toward Cloud at first. Then CoT came along, stating that Tifa's feelings toward him began to change, becoming like a mother would feel towards a child. Then you get the RF which states that Tifa shares a maternal bond with Cloud, who is essentially a big kid himself.

Then why does she ask Cloud if he loves her? Is she looking to cheat?

You tell me. Was she even asking if he loves her in a romantic sense? Or if he loves her as a friend? Why quickly change her question once she realizes that he's awake and can hear her?

Erhhmmm. Let's come to some kind of agreement here, ne? Step by step. Let's say that you're right that the word koibito doesn't always mean that a mutual love is implied. That it is a one-sided love. Then can you answer why the ultimania states that Cloud and Tifa realized their mutual feelings for each other? Somehow, it doesn't fit the equation. If it is a one-sided love, then the ultimania would not have stated that Cloud and Tifa realized their mutual feelings for each other. And this is even if the word koibito follows your interpretation, it doesn't apply in this case, to Cloud's and Tifa's relationship. The fact that the word koibito is even mentioned kills the clerith claims that the mutual feelings we were refering to is familial or jusy buddy-buddy. ..Hmm. I wonder what kind of mutual feelings they were referiing to.

Alright, let's take this one step at a time. First of all, there is no mention what the mutal feelings at that specific time are supposed to be. The quote I believe you are referring to says this:

Cloud asks all of his friends to ascertain what their “important thing” is. After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way.

~Nojima, FFVII 10th Anniversery Ultimania

Nojima states that feelings are expressed. He does not state what those feelings were. Feelings about the approaching battle? Feelings of support? Feelings regarding misunderstandings of the past? Feelings of love? He doesn't say. That's left up to interpretation; he does not say that Cluod and Tifa expressed mutal romantic feelings, that's your assumption.

And again, you are also assuming that feelings toward a person are clean cut, without multiple feelings invovled. Feelings of friendship could have been expressed by both parties, while Tifa holds back the fact that she also harbors romantic feelings, leading to her having a onesided love for Cloud.

Interesting also, that by the time of DoC Tifa is still reffered to as Cloud's childhood friend, and nothing more. What happened to those supposed romantic mutual feelings?

And about Cloud's name not being mentioned. You have to wonder. If Tifa is not Cloud's koibito, why does this secret koibito of hers, does not even live with her and instead permits her to live with another man and two children.

You have to wonder why this koibito would have a problem with her living with two friends she saved the world with and two children- one an orphan and the other being the daughter of one of her friends that she thinks of as her own daughter. Why shouldn't Tifa live where she wants to?

Actually, no matter what, Cloud and Tifa slept together under the highwind- they wake up together. What is at issue is whether there came hanky panky as well as the sleeping together.[/QUOTE]

Sure, they fell asleep on the rocks together. That's what I think. But many Cloti seem to be of the opinon that they 'slept together'. If you want me to be blunt about it, some Cloti believe they had sex on the rocks while their friends in the HW watched. Hot dang.

Actually the foreground. In the background is that scrubland I was referring to.

Look again. Flowers. Yellow flowers. Don't see this 'scrub' you're referring to. That would be in the scenery around the place where Cloud met Barret.

Yes. Notably lacking any Cloud. When we cut back to Cloud, he continues driving past, and Aerith turns. The script describes this as her looking on sadly.

My point in showing that picture was in showing the flowers around her. Which you clearly didn't seem to get. Also, this script you refer to is full of things that never happened in the movie such as Aerith's image in the water that healed Cloud's Geostigma. Aerith didn't look sad there. Her expression is normal.

Cloud on Motorcycle on Road heading towards the scrublands in the background. Headed home.

Scrublands? Where? And Cloud says that he's going home when? When did the creator say that?

Only three or four of those can be identified as Flowerfields. The rest appear to be regular green fields, brown, a couple of industrial shots on the other side of the desk. A few mountains. Given that Cloud is in the habit of telling stories to the kids about his travels, it is much more parsimonious to conclude that these photos are taken for telling these stories, instead of taking them because of a pining for the Flower Girl.

Look again. There's at least nine pictures with the flowerfield. The others look like shots of the road or mountains. And you presume to read Cloud's mind about why he has those pictures? Have the creators said that the photos were to show to the children? Or that they're for his own personal enjoyment? Unless you have a statment to back that up, that's speculation.

You do realize that Cloud is driving down the highway in the credits sequence and in Reminiscence, covering hundreds of miles as he goes? The field Aerith appears in is by consequence almost certainly geographically disparate from the field Cloud calls Tifa in. Unless you argue that all flower fields are Aerith, of course.

So you mean to tell me that Aerith was stuck in some random field full of yellow flowers by the creators, and Cloud just happens to have yellow flowers that are the same on his desk, just happens to call Tifa with yellow flowers surrounding the area, just happens to have pictures of the yellow flowerfield? Awfully big coincidence there.

Reminiscence details that Cloud is finishing up his deliveries and heading home. If he never heads home, how can he put the flowers in front of the photo?
Y'know, it's worth pointing out that these flowers are yellow. Yellow flowers represents friends and family. As the flowers he picks symbolize Aerith, she is given Fillial regards.

You'd be interested to know that yellow in Japan actually symbolizes courage. In some places yellow flowers are supposed to represent love everlasting. References on where anyone states that in AC that the yellow flowers represent friends and family?

I never said that Cloud never returns home. You're the one who presumes to know that he heads home at the end of Calling when he could just as easily be going somewhere else.

You seem to be confusing the Song and the credits sequence with each other. Calling is a song that was written about 20 years ago. It's a power ballad about needing to take action, and not wait. Cloud's issue during the movie is his inability to take action because he is crippled by his fear of failing.

You seem to fail to comprehend what was said. As Nomura stated, the Calling music video is about Cloud and his feelings. Going to argue with him now, are you?

Secretly fell in love with, actually. Dimly is not a proper use of the Kanji meaning obscured from view. And it never gives us any reason to suspect that these feelings have changed, statute of limitations of love argument aside. It's also far more than Cloud has ever said regarding Aerith, or has ever said about Cloud regarding Aerith. Aerith has only been referred to as a friend, or a maternal figure from Cloud's point of view

So you're saying that when a person falls in love as a child it's automatically lasting and true. Given the fact that Cloud barely knew her- as Tifa herself states-, that he didn't see her for years. . . you want to use a proof like that, it's your choice. Rinoa once loved Seifer, and openly admitted it. You telling me that since she said that, it renders her feelings for Squall afterwards invalid since she loved Seifer first. Heaven knows people can't get over their first love.

Actually, he said he wanted to be noticed by Tifa. He wanted her notice. And yes, she did aknowledge him. She thought he was cute, she let him into the group on her birthday and she agreed to meet him out at the water tower. Outside of Cloud getting into fights, thinking that the group was stupid, that's pretty much all we know of their childhoods together. And getting into fights got Tifa's aknowledgement too. Everything we know about their past actually says Tifa kept aknowledging him.
Also, the lines are 'we weren't that close', not 'we barely knew each other'. There is a difference.
Though, definitely be careful with the 'barely know' argument. Cloud knew Aerith for a couple of weeks. He spent more time hanging around 7th Heaven before the game than the time he knew Aerith.

Tifa's words were that she did not know Cloud at all, that they were never close. She saw him hanging around, remembered him fighting, recalled him standing outside her window looking in. When did she invite him to join anything? Check your facts again. He never joined in on her birthday. HE followed Tifa and her friends as they climbed the mountain- I don't recall Tifa saying "Hey Cloud! Come with us!" Tifa's adult self remarks that Cloud was cute- do you know if that was what her younger self thought, or Tifa looking back on him and thinking what a cute little child he had been? As for Cloud and Aerith's length of time being together- you presume to tell me that the journey over several continents was completed in a mere few weeks? Got a quote to back up how long they were actually together?

If they need a sequence in which their hearts call out to each other to realize they have feelings of friendship for each other, then, well, I have no clue how they live on a day to day setting. You are simply refusing to admit that the usage of feelings refers to romantic ones because you are emotionally invested against the idea of Cloud having feelings for Tifa.

Their hearts called out to each other. Your point? The hearts of friends can't call out to each other? Is there or isn't there a game called Kingdom Hearts that talks about how people's hearts are connected, not just in a romantic manner, but also in that of friendship? I didn't see or hear anything that said Tifa and Cloud's hearts called out in a romantic fashion with passion and love and shooting stars.

You yourself are apparently quite emotionally invested in this whole argument. And you presume to know that I don't want Cloud to have feelings for Tifa? Since when does what I want come into the equation? I can want Cloud to hate Tifa's guts and that doesn't make it true or make it happen. Have I ever said that I didn't want Cloud to have feelings for Tifa? No. Sure, I think he has friendship feelings towards her. I do not believe that he has romantic ones towards her. You are presuming to know my mind, when you clearly don't.

Actually, they intended for the dialogue to be mature. Originally, the morning after scene was much more explicit about the sexual act, and Kitase said it was too much, so they toned it down. They did not get rid of it, they toned it down. They made it more subtle.

Read again. Tifa's line is the one to reffered to as suggestive. They don't say anything about the scene or Cloud's dialogue as suggestive/risque.

 

[Alantie]

Thanks for the lesson on language. lulz

Those links don't say anything different than the ones we provided; in fact, they back up what we're saying. So I thank you for the additional sources. But do you have any links that say 恋人means something other than lover/sweetheart?

Oh, you're welcome. It clearly needed to be given since the concept of a word having multiple meanings cannot be grasped. And still hasn't. Also, since apparently since selective reading is a practice alive and well, I suggest you go ahead and read the links again.

On the contrary, it's quite normal. I've always had maternal feelings for my boyfriends, and so have my friends. One friend lays out her husband's clothes every morning. OK, that's taking it to a creepy level, but still. The point is that maternal feelings and romantic feelings are not mutually exclusive, especially for a man who needs as much mothering as Cloud does.

Sure, it's normal for a person to be mothering to a person they love and take care of them. It isn't normal for them to feel maternal towards a boyfriend/girlfriend, unless you go for the whole Jocasta/Oedipus thing. There's a difference between mothing a person and feeling maternal towards them.
In case that still doesn't make sense to you, let me put it this way. Quistis from FFVIII had been portrayed as desiring a romantic relationship with Squall at first. But as time progresses and she unravels her forgotten memories and tangled emotions, she comes to realize that she feels more like a mother to Squall. Likewise, Tifa has been shown to pursue romantic feelings toward Cloud at first. Then CoT came along, stating that Tifa's feelings toward him began to change, becoming like a mother would feel towards a child. Then you get the RF which states that Tifa shares a maternal bond with Cloud, who is essentially a big kid himself.

Then why does she ask Cloud if he loves her? Is she looking to cheat?

You tell me. Was she even asking if he loves her in a romantic sense? Or if he loves her as a friend? Why quickly change her question once she realizes that he's awake and can hear her?

Erhhmmm. Let's come to some kind of agreement here, ne? Step by step. Let's say that you're right that the word koibito doesn't always mean that a mutual love is implied. That it is a one-sided love. Then can you answer why the ultimania states that Cloud and Tifa realized their mutual feelings for each other? Somehow, it doesn't fit the equation. If it is a one-sided love, then the ultimania would not have stated that Cloud and Tifa realized their mutual feelings for each other. And this is even if the word koibito follows your interpretation, it doesn't apply in this case, to Cloud's and Tifa's relationship. The fact that the word koibito is even mentioned kills the clerith claims that the mutual feelings we were refering to is familial or jusy buddy-buddy. ..Hmm. I wonder what kind of mutual feelings they were referiing to.

Alright, let's take this one step at a time. First of all, there is no mention what the mutal feelings at that specific time are supposed to be. The quote I believe you are referring to says this:

Cloud asks all of his friends to ascertain what their “important thing” is. After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way.

~Nojima, FFVII 10th Anniversery Ultimania

Nojima states that feelings are expressed. He does not state what those feelings were. Feelings about the approaching battle? Feelings of support? Feelings regarding misunderstandings of the past? Feelings of love? He doesn't say. That's left up to interpretation; he does not say that Cluod and Tifa expressed mutal romantic feelings, that's your assumption.

And again, you are also assuming that feelings toward a person are clean cut, without multiple feelings invovled. Feelings of friendship could have been expressed by both parties, while Tifa holds back the fact that she also harbors romantic feelings, leading to her having a onesided love for Cloud.

Interesting also, that by the time of DoC Tifa is still reffered to as Cloud's childhood friend, and nothing more. What happened to those supposed romantic mutual feelings?

And about Cloud's name not being mentioned. You have to wonder. If Tifa is not Cloud's koibito, why does this secret koibito of hers, does not even live with her and instead permits her to live with another man and two children.

You have to wonder why this koibito would have a problem with her living with two friends she saved the world with and two children- one an orphan and the other being the daughter of one of her friends that she thinks of as her own daughter. Why shouldn't Tifa live where she wants to?

Actually, no matter what, Cloud and Tifa slept together under the highwind- they wake up together. What is at issue is whether there came hanky panky as well as the sleeping together.[/QUOTE]

Sure, they fell asleep on the rocks together. That's what I think. But many Cloti seem to be of the opinon that they 'slept together'. If you want me to be blunt about it, some Cloti believe they had sex on the rocks while their friends in the HW watched. Hot dang.

Actually the foreground. In the background is that scrubland I was referring to.

Look again. Flowers. Yellow flowers. Don't see this 'scrub' you're referring to. That would be in the scenery around the place where Cloud met Barret.

Yes. Notably lacking any Cloud. When we cut back to Cloud, he continues driving past, and Aerith turns. The script describes this as her looking on sadly.

My point in showing that picture was in showing the flowers around her. Which you clearly didn't seem to get. Also, this script you refer to is full of things that never happened in the movie such as Aerith's image in the water that healed Cloud's Geostigma. Aerith didn't look sad there. Her expression is normal.

Cloud on Motorcycle on Road heading towards the scrublands in the background. Headed home.

Scrublands? Where? And Cloud says that he's going home when? When did the creator say that?

Only three or four of those can be identified as Flowerfields. The rest appear to be regular green fields, brown, a couple of industrial shots on the other side of the desk. A few mountains. Given that Cloud is in the habit of telling stories to the kids about his travels, it is much more parsimonious to conclude that these photos are taken for telling these stories, instead of taking them because of a pining for the Flower Girl.

Look again. There's at least nine pictures with the flowerfield. The others look like shots of the road or mountains. And you presume to read Cloud's mind about why he has those pictures? Have the creators said that the photos were to show to the children? Or that they're for his own personal enjoyment? Unless you have a statment to back that up, that's speculation.

You do realize that Cloud is driving down the highway in the credits sequence and in Reminiscence, covering hundreds of miles as he goes? The field Aerith appears in is by consequence almost certainly geographically disparate from the field Cloud calls Tifa in. Unless you argue that all flower fields are Aerith, of course.

So you mean to tell me that Aerith was stuck in some random field full of yellow flowers by the creators, and Cloud just happens to have yellow flowers that are the same on his desk, just happens to call Tifa with yellow flowers surrounding the area, just happens to have pictures of the yellow flowerfield? Awfully big coincidence there.

Reminiscence details that Cloud is finishing up his deliveries and heading home. If he never heads home, how can he put the flowers in front of the photo?
Y'know, it's worth pointing out that these flowers are yellow. Yellow flowers represents friends and family. As the flowers he picks symbolize Aerith, she is given Fillial regards.

You'd be interested to know that yellow in Japan actually symbolizes courage. In some places yellow flowers are supposed to represent love everlasting. References on where anyone states that in AC that the yellow flowers represent friends and family?

I never said that Cloud never returns home. You're the one who presumes to know that he heads home at the end of Calling when he could just as easily be going somewhere else.

You seem to be confusing the Song and the credits sequence with each other. Calling is a song that was written about 20 years ago. It's a power ballad about needing to take action, and not wait. Cloud's issue during the movie is his inability to take action because he is crippled by his fear of failing.

You seem to fail to comprehend what was said. As Nomura stated, the Calling music video is about Cloud and his feelings. Going to argue with him now, are you?

Secretly fell in love with, actually. Dimly is not a proper use of the Kanji meaning obscured from view. And it never gives us any reason to suspect that these feelings have changed, statute of limitations of love argument aside. It's also far more than Cloud has ever said regarding Aerith, or has ever said about Cloud regarding Aerith. Aerith has only been referred to as a friend, or a maternal figure from Cloud's point of view

So you're saying that when a person falls in love as a child it's automatically lasting and true. Given the fact that Cloud barely knew her- as Tifa herself states-, that he didn't see her for years. . . you want to use a proof like that, it's your choice. Rinoa once loved Seifer, and openly admitted it. You telling me that since she said that, it renders her feelings for Squall afterwards invalid since she loved Seifer first. Heaven knows people can't get over their first love.

Actually, he said he wanted to be noticed by Tifa. He wanted her notice. And yes, she did aknowledge him. She thought he was cute, she let him into the group on her birthday and she agreed to meet him out at the water tower. Outside of Cloud getting into fights, thinking that the group was stupid, that's pretty much all we know of their childhoods together. And getting into fights got Tifa's aknowledgement too. Everything we know about their past actually says Tifa kept aknowledging him.
Also, the lines are 'we weren't that close', not 'we barely knew each other'. There is a difference.
Though, definitely be careful with the 'barely know' argument. Cloud knew Aerith for a couple of weeks. He spent more time hanging around 7th Heaven before the game than the time he knew Aerith.

Tifa's words were that she did not know Cloud at all, that they were never close. She saw him hanging around, remembered him fighting, recalled him standing outside her window looking in. When did she invite him to join anything? Check your facts again. He never joined in on her birthday. HE followed Tifa and her friends as they climbed the mountain- I don't recall Tifa saying "Hey Cloud! Come with us!" Tifa's adult self remarks that Cloud was cute- do you know if that was what her younger self thought, or Tifa looking back on him and thinking what a cute little child he had been? As for Cloud and Aerith's length of time being together- you presume to tell me that the journey over several continents was completed in a mere few weeks? Got a quote to back up how long they were actually together?

If they need a sequence in which their hearts call out to each other to realize they have feelings of friendship for each other, then, well, I have no clue how they live on a day to day setting. You are simply refusing to admit that the usage of feelings refers to romantic ones because you are emotionally invested against the idea of Cloud having feelings for Tifa.

Their hearts called out to each other. Your point? The hearts of friends can't call out to each other? Is there or isn't there a game called Kingdom Hearts that talks about how people's hearts are connected, not just in a romantic manner, but also in that of friendship? I didn't see or hear anything that said Tifa and Cloud's hearts called out in a romantic fashion with passion and love and shooting stars.

You yourself are apparently quite emotionally invested in this whole argument. And you presume to know that I don't want Cloud to have feelings for Tifa? Since when does what I want come into the equation? I can want Cloud to hate Tifa's guts and that doesn't make it true or make it happen. Have I ever said that I didn't want Cloud to have feelings for Tifa? No. Sure, I think he has friendship feelings towards her. I do not believe that he has romantic ones towards her. You are presuming to know my mind, when you clearly don't.

Actually, they intended for the dialogue to be mature. Originally, the morning after scene was much more explicit about the sexual act, and Kitase said it was too much, so they toned it down. They did not get rid of it, they toned it down. They made it more subtle.

Read again. Tifa's line is the one to reffered to as suggestive. They don't say anything about the scene or Cloud's dialogue as suggestive/risque.

Not because he has someone there with him. He's always had some help, someone standing by him. This time, he has Tifa with him, and he thinks he can succeed. He plans on having her by his side from that day on.

Has he? He was alone as a child, shunned and outcast from the group. Where was the person standing beside him then? And again, you haven't proved that him wanting Tifa beside him is anything other than that of friendship. Because afterall, friends can stand beside and help people too. You don't have to be romantically in love for that.

'The woman wears the pants' doesn't refer to a relationship now? Have you completely avoided some of the most cliche relationship phrases in existence now?

Does that statment mean the same thing in Japan? The phrase can also be in reference to any relationship involving males and females, not just a romantic one. It's used to say that the female is the one who kicks the male into action, the dominante personality in the relationship. Doesn't mean it's romantic. And do Cid and Barret's opinion on things necissarily mean it's the truth?

On its own, it doesn't. But coupled with the fact that he isolates himself further and further as time goes on until the very start of AC, that he leaves because he is isolating himself to protect those precious to him, and that he becomes more withdrawn the happier he gets, and it's a very handy way to say that being with Tifa at 7th heaven makes Cloud happy.

Sure, being with Tifa and Barret and Marlene and Denzel can make Cloud happy. Doesn't mean he's romantically in love with any of them because he's happy with them. Friends can bring a person just as much happiness as a person of romantic interest can. Doesn't mean love. And again, notice how the quote doesn't say a word about singling Tifa out as the sole provider of Cloud's happiness.

No, the one who loves would be Koi suru hito. As you've been told several times, the word contains the aspect of mutuality. It's like Fiancee in that regard. One cannot be a Fiancee in a vacuum, same as one cannot be a Koibito in a vacuum. It requires reciprocation.

If you bothered to read and research the matter, you would see it isn't so. The word koibito does not necissarily mean that the feeling of love is returned. Koi itself caries a meaning of selfishness while ai talks about a love that is mature and returned. Koibito is not used in Japan the same way, which you would know if you bothered to read any of the links.

Koibito and the word sweetheart share only one definition in common- that of people who are in a mutual romantic relationship. A mutual romantic relationship requires mutual parties. Who else, aside from Cloud, could be meant by this, and why do they not care that Tifa is living with a grown man and not them?

Refer to above again since apparently it's difficult to understand the complexity of language and that words can have several meanings. Sweetheart has only one meaning? Really? Get a dictionary and look it up.

Yes, in the sense that she takes care of him, like she does the children. Take a look at the japanese for that section. It says 'takes care of', not 'has a maternal bond'. I'm going by the prime source wherever possible. You should too, if you think you have enough knowledge of Japanese to tell me, various dictionaries, teachers, etc. etc. that a Japanese word does not mean what they all agree it means.

So then you're fluent in Japanese? You've lived in Japan? RF isn't the only source that speaks of Tifa having maternal feelings towards Cloud. A little book called CoT has it too.

It's in the reunion files. P79 if I recall. The full quote is something along the lines of 'one of the first things cemented was that Cloud would together with Tifa. Everyone would be back home where they belong'. Now, people have argued this refers only to physical locality, but given that Cloud begins the movie physically separated from Tifa, it must refer to another form of togetherness.

And that person would be correct. The quote in question is talking about people's physical locations, not their romantic bonds.

10th Aniv Ulti, I forget the exact page. I don't have the book on me at the moment, and I'm sure you can find it somewhere or other.

As I see Chance has told you several times, you should provide your own links to such things. I'm not going to dig for your evidence for you.

It doesn't say that Cloud doesn't want it. But we do know that the something that Cloud has distanced himself from in AC is his family, the ones precious to him, who make him happy. As what he runs from in KH2 is the same, it is something that makes Cloud happy that he runs from.

It doesn't say that he does want it either. Or that he wants it from Tifa specifically. That's your speculation coming into matters.

Barret has never been included as part of the family at 7th Heaven. Before Denzel arrived, their family was referred to as a threesome, and after he arrived, it was a foursome.

Way to break the big guy's heart. He referrs to Seventh Heaven as home, his daughter lives there, he lives there. Barret lives there and considers it home. Got a quote that says otherwise?

He has his own office, but it can barely be called anything more than a guest room if we're talking domiciling. It has no dressers and barely a bed. It's more sparse than the camping kit he used for his brief sojourn in the church.

CoT specifically states that Cloud has his own room at Seventh Heaven. Nowhere has it been said that Cloud and Tifa share a room. Interesting to note is that Marlene is the one stated to sleep in Tifa's room.

Don't forget Jessie. Tifa/ Jessie OTP. A group of rebels living together are slightly different circumstances than a grown man and a grown woman, when the woman has known feelings for the man (and, if we're not being obdurate, the man has the same for the woman) decide to move in together and proceed to raise children together, especially Denzel, who is 'theirs'.

Didn't forget Jessie, I just figured since people harp on about a woman living with a man must mean she's in a romantic relationship with them I would point out she's lived with several. But hey, maybe Tifa loved Jessie. Denzel is 'their's'? Since when? Quote? Refrence? Funny, Cloud brought Denzel because he believed that Aerith was the one who brought Denzel to him. So wouldn't that make Denzel Cloud and Aerith's?

Now, I'm glad you at least tried to knock down the short list, but you're getting ahead of yourself, Atlantie. Knocking my little incomplete list down does you no good at all if you cannot provide something to actually prop your side up. You ought to get onto the demonstrating the very basics, then, since nothing on your side can stand without those basics.

Glad you got a kick out of it since you didn't even bother to give proper sources and reasonable proof with your little list. You want me to give proof? Sure, but right now I have my hands full debunking yours since you keep throwing the same stuff over and over. As Chance has suggested, go to Clerith.com if you want a list in the meantime. And my name is Alantie, not Atlantie.

 

[Serene]

Oh, you're welcome. It clearly needed to be given since the concept of a word having multiple meanings cannot be grasped. And still hasn't. Also, since apparently since selective reading is a practice alive and well, I suggest you go ahead and read the links again.

I've studied several languages and have a master's degree in English. I'm fully aware that words can have multiple meanings. I believe I simply asked you for links showing koibito defined as something other than lover/sweetheart. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying you need to demonstrate it. If it has other meanings, surely some reference somewhere must mention these other definitions, right?
As for your links, I did read them. Both dealt with the differences in nuance between 恋 (koi) and 愛 (ai). However, both sources also show that when you stick 人 with 恋, the combination becomes lover/sweetheart. No ambiguity. Now if you want to assert that 恋+人= something other than what all these sources have said, the onus is on you to prove it.

Koibito doesn't even mean that the feeling of affection is mutual- it can imply a onesided love.

Do you have a reliable source for that? Because nowhere in those links you provided does it say that. They're talking about the word "koi," not the word "koibito." I guess it's my turn to give the lesson. When two words are joined to form a compound word, it doesn't mean the new word takes on all the definitions and connotations of the root words. The word "fire" has more than 40 definitions in the dictionary, yet "fireman" has a specific meaning. Don't confuse their discussion about "koi" with a discussion about "koibito."

 

[Infinity D]

Nojima states that feelings are expressed. He does not state what those feelings were. Feelings about the approaching battle? Feelings of support? Feelings regarding misunderstandings of the past? Feelings of love? He doesn't say. That's left up to interpretation; he does not say that Cluod and Tifa expressed mutal romantic feelings, that's your assumption.

And again, you are also assuming that feelings toward a person are clean cut, without multiple feelings invovled. Feelings of friendship could have been expressed by both parties, while Tifa holds back the fact that she also harbors romantic feelings, leading to her having a onesided love for Cloud.

Interesting also, that by the time of DoC Tifa is still reffered to as Cloud's childhood friend, and nothing more. What happened to those supposed romantic mutual feelings?

Nice try. Do you realize how much effort you have to input in order to deny the possibility of Tifa and Cloud being canon? Do you realize how much twist and over-analysis you have to do in order to deny this couple their canonicity? Now. If you just go with the flow, with what is given to you, with author’s intent and not your biased desire in mind, this whole plot implies a romantic relationship. IMPLICATION itself is not very convincing, but at the least it’s what clotis have and cleriths don’t have even that.

The scenario. It could possibly be the end of the world the next day. Two people. One male, one female are left alone together. They’ve just really, truly discovered each other. [Cloud finding his real self in the Lifestream and Tifa discovering that she was the primary reason why Cloud joined SOLDIER/his secret wish/tender memories no one could ever know (quote from memory)] Alone together, Cloud says “There’s so much I wanted to tell you but now that we are together I really don’t know what to say…I guess nothing’s changed.” [From memory] So why did Cloud say nothing’s changed [for him] Could it possibly be because he was in a vegetative like state for five years and then woke up with an identity crisis? [five years of his life robbed ßPoor guy] Meaning that when he finally figures out who he really is, (that is, waking up to his real self and not waking up believing that he's 1st Class SOLDIER Zack) everything five years ago seems like yesterday. And yesterday was the day he had had just stabbed Sephiroth, passionately crying out: “Mom, Tifa, my town, give it all back!” [Again from memory] After which he goes on and carries Tifa to a more safe place, while leaving Zack lying uncomfortably on the stairs/or something. Yesterday, the last time Cloud was his real self. Today, the first time he wakes up to his real self. Yesterday, we see the real Cloud with Tifa. Today, we see the real Cloud with Tifa saying “We finally meet again.” Do you see? It all began and ended with Tifa. His real self from five years ago was last seen with Tifa and his real self now is again first seen with Tifa. It was also just yesterday that Cloud's crush[or dim/secret love] on[for] Tifa existed. How can yesterday's feelings so easily disappear today? On the other hand, real Cloud never meant Aerith. Aerith played no role with the real Cloud at all. When Cloud met Aerith he was going through an identity crisis. CAn you fall in love with somebody you've never really met? ...With Tifa, we see Cloud’s history become clear. The quote again: “There’s so much I wanted to tell you but now that we are together I really don’t know what to say…I guess nothing’s changed.” Emphasis on “together.” And there’s so much he wants to say. And then Tifa tells him words aren’t the only way to tell people how you feel. What could possibly be expressed without words btw a grown man and a grown woman who have a history of harboring and probably still have, romantic feelings for each other?

So you say Nojima did not specify what kind of feelings. Yeah. Again. You have to put a lot of effort to not believe Tifa and Cloud had a romantic night together. How would Cloud and Tifa express their feelings about approaching battle? Have a good spar? How would they express their feelings of support? Silently pray without words? How would they express their misunderstandings from the past? Hmm. But first, what misunderstandings? Not knowing that they had a crush on each other? That would lead to something romantic woulda ya say. How would they express feelings of love? Something “risqué” as the authors implied? Most probably. Else, how can you explain Tifa’s embarrassment the next morning after which she woke up with her head resting on Cloud's shoulder. There’s no reason for Tifa to be embarrassed if she and Cloud were merely expressing feelings of approaching battle or feelings of support, or whatever illogical feelings (that would not fit with the scenario) cleriths claim they expressed. Or you can say it was a long night and they expressed everything they possibly could've expressed.

Oh and then there’s also that calling in each other’s hearts. Beat that. Friends calling to each other in each others' hearts. Only cleirths will think it's normal for mere friends to grow that initimate with each other. Just concede. Cloud and Tifa reached a new level of initmacy that Aerith could have never reached with Cloud. 1) Because she's dead and 2) She've never really met the real Cloud to begin with.

Highwind scene. Just imagine this scenario. One male, one female. They're not brother and sister; they're not BFF; we can assume they're straight. And something cleriths might find most difficult: pretend like the guy isn’t a blond, spiky-haired ex-soldier and the gal isn’t someone you literally hate to death. You cannot deny the romantic undertones given the history and circumstances.

All in all. Whether this scenario convinces you that the feelings they expressed were romantic or not romantic, you submitted to the idea that Tifa may have hid her romantic feelings for Cloud when they mutually realized their "familial" or "friendly" but not romantic feelings for each other. Now I have to ask. Apply common sense and not bias. Do you actually presume that Tifa would keep her romantic feelings for Cloud bottled up when she know she might not be alive tomorrow!?? Accept it. Cloud and Tifa realized all of their feelings for each other. It might be the end of the world, so what is there to hide? What is there to risk? They're alone together. Both have no real home to return to. They don't know if the others will still be there for them. So the mentality is that all they've got is each other. Do you see the cliche applied to this scenario? Tifa said no matter what, she won't be scared because Cloud is by her side. If she's willing to say that much, what makes you think she won't reveal this "hidden" romantic feelings of hers. (And let's not forget Cloud's crush from wee yesterday) When she found Cloud in the hospital, she told everyone that she wanted to stay with Cloud. As if that is not apparent to everyone. If she's willing to show everyone that Cloud is that much important to her, what makes you think she wouldn't express her romantic interest for Cloud when it might be their last night together? You submitted to the idea that Tifa loves Cloud. If Nojima said their feelings were mutual, then Cloud's feelings == Tifa's feelings. Thus, their love is reciprocated. Tifa is a koibito. Nomura said it. I believe it. Add all the factors up together, Tifa is Cloud's koibito.

That's the key. Add all the information together, don't individually downplay each information that has been given because they add up and voila, you get a solid understanding of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

...
And oh yeah. I am not assuming that people’s feelings are clean cut. You ARE. You told Serene that Tifa can’t have maternal feelings toward Cloud if they are in a romantic relationship. YOU are assuming feelings towards a person are clean cut. Not I.

You have to wonder why this koibito would have a problem with her living with two friends she saved the world with and two children- one an orphan and the other being the daughter of one of her friends that she thinks of as her own daughter. Why shouldn't Tifa live where she wants to?

You have to wonder why they did not introduce the koibito of an important character to us if that koibito isn’t a character we already know. Perhaps they presume that we’re not that dense. And excuse me. There’s only one man whom Tifa is living with. Barret left, leaving Marlene with Cloud and Tifa. Marlene promised to be a good kid to “them.” And them, referring to Cloud and Tifa, who then stared at each other (I would add "mutually") at this kid's remark after her father left (CoT). You must also remember that the original family portrait did not include Barret. It included Cloud, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, you're welcome. It clearly needed to be given since the concept of a word having multiple meanings cannot be grasped. And still hasn't. Also, since apparently since selective reading is a practice alive and well, I suggest you go ahead and read the links again.

Again, none of them give a different meaning. Where is this different meaning for koibito?

Sure, it's normal for a person to be mothering to a person they love and take care of them. It isn't normal for them to feel maternal towards a boyfriend/girlfriend, unless you go for the whole Jocasta/Oedipus thing. There's a difference between mothing a person and feeling maternal towards them.
In case that still doesn't make sense to you, let me put it this way. Quistis from FFVIII had been portrayed as desiring a romantic relationship with Squall at first. But as time progresses and she unravels her forgotten memories and tangled emotions, she comes to realize that she feels more like a mother to Squall. Likewise, Tifa has been shown to pursue romantic feelings toward Cloud at first. Then CoT came along, stating that Tifa's feelings toward him began to change, becoming like a mother would feel towards a child. Then you get the RF which states that Tifa shares a maternal bond with Cloud, who is essentially a big kid himself.

Then why, after the scene in which she 'feels feelings much like a mother might', does she worry about Cloud's love for her? And Reunion Files uses the same kanji 'take care of' for Cloud as it does the kids. It does not say 'maternal bond' in the original.
Though speaking of Oedipus, Cloud thinks of Aerith as a mother.

You tell me. Was she even asking if he loves her in a romantic sense? Or if he loves her as a friend?

I'm sorry, but are you always this obtuse, or is this just something you adopt for the LTD? When was the last time you read a scene in fiction that had a grown person ask 'do you love me' and have it refer to fillial relations?

Why quickly change her question once she realizes that he's awake and can hear her?

Embarrassment. Fear of the answer. Any number of reasons. Why would you suggest she change the question if she's just asking about fillial love?

Alright, let's take this one step at a time. First of all, there is no mention what the mutal feelings at that specific time are supposed to be. The quote I believe you are referring to says this:

Quote:
Cloud asks all of his friends to ascertain what their “important thing” is. After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way.
Quote:
~Nojima, FFVII 10th Anniversery Ultimania

Nojima states that feelings are expressed. He does not state what those feelings were. Feelings about the approaching battle? Feelings of support? Feelings regarding misunderstandings of the past? Feelings of love? He doesn't say. That's left up to interpretation; he does not say that Cluod and Tifa expressed mutal romantic feelings, that's your assumption.

It's worth pointing out that 'confessing your feelings' is cliche-speak for telling someone you have romantic feelings for them.

And again, you are also assuming that feelings toward a person are clean cut, without multiple feelings invovled. Feelings of friendship could have been expressed by both parties, while Tifa holds back the fact that she also harbors romantic feelings, leading to her having a onesided love for Cloud.

But why would they 'confess' these fillial feelings to each other? They already know this. And why refer to 'feelings' if they don't want people assuming it means romantic feelings for each other. Seriously, ask yourself, when a character in any other piece of fiction states they have feelings for another character, what are they referring to? When you argument about a piece of fiction relies on completely ignoring the collected tropes and commonalities of modern fiction to make its point, you might want to rethink that argument. Put less nicely, it's almost certainly wronger than rule 34.

Interesting also, that by the time of DoC Tifa is still reffered to as Cloud's childhood friend, and nothing more. What happened to those supposed romantic mutual feelings?

Referred to as such only in an English source which also refers to Cloud as an Ex-SOLDIER. So, unless time and space have suddenly inverted, that source is wrong, wrong, wrong.

You have to wonder why this koibito would have a problem with her living with two friends she saved the world with

Two friends she saved the world with? Marlene saved the world? Oh, I see. You think Barrett is included. He is not. He has never been considered part of the family by Square. He's outside the family of three, and still outside when it becomes a foursome with Denzel.

and two children- one an orphan and the other being the daughter of one of her friends that she thinks of as her own daughter. Why shouldn't Tifa live where she wants to?

Irrelevant question- Why is this lover -who if not Cloud is still considered important enough to mention the existence of but not detail anything about- not taking an issue with her living with another grown man, or living in the building him (or her, I will grant) self?
Of course, let's not forget that Reunion Files is all about the Advent Children movie. Why tell us that Tifa is a lover if this has no relevance to the movie? Certainly, it must have some relevance to a character in the movie. Now there's only one character in the movie who Tifa has been said to have romantic feelings for, and who has been shown to have romantic intent towards Tifa. That's Cloud. I know, I know... 'dimly, time ran out, blah blah', but the point is, it's been said.
And it's still more than has ever been said about Aerith.

Sure, they fell asleep on the rocks together. That's what I think. But many Cloti seem to be of the opinon that they 'slept together'. If you want me to be blunt about it, some Cloti believe they had sex on the rocks while their friends in the HW watched. Hot dang.

And it is in no way out of character or context for a grown man and grown woman to consummate their mutual feelings on the last night of the world by being physically intimate together. Though I do disagree with the concept that AVALANCHE was watching. I simply think they were teasing, though they didn't actually see anything. It is kind of telling that Tifa gets worried about them watching/ listening, while Cloud just does his 'aww shucks' headscratch, IIRC.

Look again. Flowers. Yellow flowers. Don't see this 'scrub' you're referring to. That would be in the scenery around the place where Cloud met Barret.

Take a look at the darker, somewhat barren ground on the far side of the field. That is scrubland. Scrubland isn't just defined by having a certain type of vegetation.
It's also completely irrelevant to the point. He keeps driving past this particular shot, still on his bike.

My point in showing that picture was in showing the flowers around her. Which you clearly didn't seem to get. Also, this script you refer to is full of things that never happened in the movie such as Aerith's image in the water that healed Cloud's Geostigma. Aerith didn't look sad there. Her expression is normal.

And I disagree. She looked sad. Surely repeatedly affirming something makes it true! I mean, that is why the C/A side keeps insisting 'Cloud smiles' refers to the non-smile he offers to Zack and Aerith, and not the smile to Tifa, Nobue says he wrote it for.
Seriously, the only Time I saw Aerith less happy than there was when she reacted to Zack's death in CC.
As for the script, it's different, but it's still the same script they used to record their lines. They changed the visuals of certain sequences, but the plot is the same. And

Scrublands? Where? And Cloud says that he's going home when? When did the creator say that?

Oh, so we need the creators to explicitly define everything now? There goes your entire pro C/A argument. At the very, very, very least, even granting most of your asinine standards and evasions, we can still say that Cloud felt Love for Tifa. Nowhere is there anything which says the same about Cloud towards Aerith.

Look again. There's at least nine pictures with the flowerfield.

I see three and a questionable. The rest are of normal green and brown fields, overexposed sky shots, mountains and industrial areas.

The others look like shots of the road or mountains. And you presume to read Cloud's mind about why he has those pictures? Have the creators said that the photos were to show to the children? Or that they're for his own personal enjoyment? Unless you have a statment to back that up, that's speculation.

And yours is entirely speculation. At least mine fits with other elements of the story as written, and explains the numerous non flower field shots visible.

So you mean to tell me that Aerith was stuck in some random field full of yellow flowers by the creators, and Cloud just happens to have yellow flowers that are the same on his desk, just happens to call Tifa with yellow flowers surrounding the area, just happens to have pictures of the yellow flowerfield? Awfully big coincidence there.

No more of one than the asinine rationalization you spun up to pretend that when someone says that a character has 'feelings' for another character, it means anything other than 'romantic feelings'.
It's possible to be the same field, but given that he's going 50MPH down the road the entire time, it'd have to be a massive flower field, stretching across huge sections of countryside.
Besides, do you know how common that kind of flower is? Hell, I used to drive through Iowa and see a bunch of them littering the roadside all across the state.

You'd be interested to know that yellow in Japan actually symbolizes courage. In some places yellow flowers are supposed to represent love everlasting. References on where anyone states that in AC that the yellow flowers represent friends and family?

So, we can either use the common language of flowers, in which he represents Aerith by fillial flowers, or the Japanese in which they are courageous flowers.
Your evasion that the AC flower language is different are asinine. Unless you specifically replace a commonality between the real world and the fictional one, removing that commonality simply removes a way for the reader to connect to your world.
Put another way, unless a writer makes an aspect of their world explicitly different from the real world, they are using, and assuming you'll use the same commonalities as everybody else.

I never said that Cloud never returns home. You're the one who presumes to know that he heads home at the end of Calling when he could just as easily be going somewhere else.

He could be, but considering he tells Tifa he's only got a few more deliveries then he's heading home, I see no reason to suspect he would.

You seem to fail to comprehend what was said. As Nomura stated, the Calling music video is about Cloud and his feelings. Going to argue with him now, are you?

The credits sequence is not 'a Calling music video'. You know what the purpose of the video in the credits sequence is? To see how well they could overlay real world footage and computer graphics. Calling is about Cloud's feelings. It's a POWER BALLAD about how you can't just wait for things to change.

So you're saying that when a person falls in love as a child it's automatically lasting and true.

Strawman. I'm saying we have no reason to believe he stopped feeling this, as he still felt this two years later at Nibleheim, and then his life basically just stops for five years, and then he meets her again.

Given the fact that Cloud barely knew her- as Tifa herself states-, that he didn't see her for years. . . you want to use a proof like that, it's your choice.

'Not that close' != 'barely knew'.

Rinoa once loved Seifer, and openly admitted it. You telling me that since she said that, it renders her feelings for Squall afterwards invalid since she loved Seifer first. Heaven knows people can't get over their first love.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Firstly, Rinoa herself states that she's over Seifer, and pursues Squall. Cloud does not state he's ever over Tifa, does not pursue anyone else, and time is given to how his memories of Tifa and his promise to her are of paramount importance.

Tifa's words were that she did not know Cloud at all, that they were never close.

No. Her lines were "It's true we weren't that close". That is a far cry from not knowing him at all.

She saw him hanging around, remembered him fighting, recalled him standing outside her window looking in. When did she invite him to join anything? Check your facts again. He never joined in on her birthday. HE followed Tifa and her friends as they climbed the mountain- I don't recall Tifa saying "Hey Cloud! Come with us!"

Cloud recalls that as being the first time he was in her room. One of the other kids says 'it's your call' to Tifa about letting him in. He is summarily scene as part of the group following Tifa up the mountain. It does not take a rocket scientist to conclude that he was invited in.

Tifa's adult self remarks that Cloud was cute- do you know if that was what her younger self thought, or Tifa looking back on him and thinking what a cute little child he had been?

She uses the past tense when referring to child Cloud. "I thought you were cute".

As for Cloud and Aerith's length of time being together- you presume to tell me that the journey over several continents was completed in a mere few weeks? Got a quote to back up how long they were actually together?

The game begins on December 9th, and finishes sometime in the latter 3rd of Janurary. Given that the latter two discs account for at least half of this time, and she didn't meet him until either late second or early third day (not including the buying a flower), they knew each other a grand total of about three or four weeks, depending on where in Janurary you presume the ending actually is.

Their hearts called out to each other. Your point? The hearts of friends can't call out to each other? Is there or isn't there a game called Kingdom Hearts that talks about how people's hearts are connected, not just in a romantic manner, but also in that of friendship? I didn't see or hear anything that said Tifa and Cloud's hearts called out in a romantic fashion with passion and love and shooting stars.

Strawman. I said, 'If they need a sequence in which their hearts call out to each other to realize they have feelings of friendship for each other, then, well, I have no clue how they live on a day to day setting.' The point is, if they need the lifestream sequence to realize they're friendly to each other, then they are the most dense, clueless people in existence.
Kingdom Hearts is a different game, but if you want to involve it, Tifa is Cloud's light. According to the Clerii when they were assuming Aerith was his light, being someone's light means they are their romantic lover. QED.
Again, though, you're trying to argue against some of the most commonly used conventions in explaining characters. That's a bad sign.

You yourself are apparently quite emotionally invested in this whole argument. And you presume to know that I don't want Cloud to have feelings for Tifa? Since when does what I want come into the equation? I can want Cloud to hate Tifa's guts and that doesn't make it true or make it happen. Have I ever said that I didn't want Cloud to have feelings for Tifa? No. Sure, I think he has friendship feelings towards her. I do not believe that he has romantic ones towards her. You are presuming to know my mind, when you clearly don't.

Wow... so apparently you DON'T know that when most people say 'has feelings for' they mean romantic ones. This is an expression common to multiple languages. How, pray tell, did you manage to miss this? Are you that devoid of literary enrichment?

Read again. Tifa's line is the one to reffered to as suggestive. They don't say anything about the scene or Cloud's dialogue as suggestive/risque.

So why include dialogue that borders on impropriety if there was to be nothing to come of it? Why create a sequence when a man and a woman walk out of a stable after such a line? Even though they toned it down, they wanted you to pick up the implications. A man who worked on movies did the camera and blocking for the scene, and the slow pan and fade out of a man and woman alone together immediately after one says such a risque line, followed by the fade in on the same man and woman sleeping together is a classic way to indicate off screen physical intimacy without showing anything that would invoke the censors.

And again, I note you offer nothing to SUPPORT C/A.
It doesn't matter a whit how many strawman or absurd goalpost shifts you toss in the way of C/T, if you can't support C/A, it remains invalid.

 

[slightly angelic]

Lonestar47:

Nice try. Do you realize how much effort you have to input in order to deny the possibility of Tifa and Cloud being canon? Do you realize how much twist and over-analysis you have to do in order to deny this couple their canonicity? Now. If you just go with the flow, with what is given to you, with author’s intent and not your biased desire in mind, this whole plot implies a romantic relationship. IMPLICATION itself is not very convincing, but at the least it’s what clotis have and cleriths don’t have even that.

I hope you're not so ignorant that you'd think Cleris fans couldn't say those very same things you just said except in reverse. I find your interpretation of the story interesting enough, but it's not how I interpreted it. In the end, it's exactly what it is...an interpretation.

You have to wonder why they did not introduce the koibito of an important character to us if that koibito isn’t a character we already know. Perhaps they presume that we’re not that dense.

Tifa is the koibito being talked about here.
It's possible that person may not, in turn, be her koibito...and you're right, we do know of someone(several people, actually) who may look at Tifa in a romantic light which then explains why she's a koibito(though there's no gurantee anywhere that it's Cloud).

Ryushikaze:

Though speaking of Oedipus, Cloud thinks of Aerith as a mother.

Cloud doesn't know who it is he's calling mother. His eyes were closed.
But since we're on the issue, didn't Zack also call out for his mother while in Aerith's presence? Unless I'm completely wrong, I suppose both Cloud and Zack need a good spanking. Tsk, tsk.

When was the last time you read a scene in fiction that had a grown person ask 'do you love me' and have it refer to fillial relations?

Personally, I think Tifa meant it romantically. However, there's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning something that you yourself didn't write, especially when it's coming from people as vague as Nomura. ^^

You think Barrett is included. He is not. He has never been considered part of the family by Square.

I'm pretty sure Cloud's family has been called Barret's family in at least one official source. I'll go hunt for that and bring it in if need be.

Take a look at the darker, somewhat barren ground on the far side of the field. That is scrubland. Scrubland isn't just defined by having a certain type of vegetation.
It's also completely irrelevant to the point. He keeps driving past this particular shot, still on his bike.

If we're talking about the scene I think we're talking about, Cloud isn't driving anywhere. While he's on the phone with Tifa, there's no sound of Fenrir running and it's actually a still image shot of the flowerfield. Unless Cloud can drive his motorcycle without turning it on, I'm pretty sure he wasn't driving past.

And it is in no way out of character or context for a grown man and grown woman to consummate their mutual feelings on the last night of the world by being physically intimate together.

I don't see how that's saying it did happen. Considering that fact that SE has stated their discussion lasted 'til dawn, I don't believe much else could have happened except in the imagination of some people.

It's possible to be the same field, but given that he's going 50MPH down the road the entire time, it'd have to be a massive flower field, stretching across huge sections of countryside.

So you're saying it's possible? I think so too.

The most important thing is that Aerith's consciousness lives on in Cloud. She's pretty much everywhere with him if you ask me. Why should it matter which field it is that they decide to spend some time together in?

while Cloud just does his 'aww shucks' headscratch, IIRC.

...or it could be because he has no idea what anyone's talking about when nothing even happened. *shrugs*

 

[Infinity D]

SLIGHTLY ANGELIC

I hope you're not so ignorant that you'd think Cleris fans couldn't say those very same things you just said except in reverse. I find your interpretation of the story interesting enough, but it's not how I interpreted it. In the end, it's exactly what it is...an interpretation.

I wouldn't want this thread to be banned so I would avoid calling you ignorant in kind. Can you be mature enough and avoid this rudeness? And perhaps you should go read my posts carefully, that most of what I described were not intepretations. They're a summary from the events that have occurrred in the game. Why won't you try and explain your interpretation and see if it fits in well with the plot.

If you insist that Cleris fans can say the same things I said in reverse, (I highly doubt it but here's your chance to prove it) then you insist that the plot implies that Cloud and Aerith shares a romantic interest in each other. You need to provide evidencce for this from the game as I've done for Cloud and Tifa. At least a summary of whatever scenes you think made that implication for cleris.

More specifically. Can you give me my own interpretations and explain to me that they are in fact, merely interpretations and not facts from the game? I'm challenging you.

Tifa is the koibito being talked about here.
It's possible that person may not, in turn, be her koibito...and you're right, we do know of someone(several people, actually) who may look at Tifa in a romantic light which then explains why she's a koibito(though there's no gurantee anywhere that it's Cloud).

You sure make a lot of sense.

Yes. Tifa is the koibito being talked about here. Check.
Who's that person you're talking about? I certainly didn't mention anyone specific. Scribble. X.
I'm right that we know of someone (several someones) who looks at Tifa in a romantic light? I said that? Scribble. X.

Oooh boy.

 

[Ammy]

Tifa is the koibito being talked about here.
It's possible that person may not, in turn, be her koibito...and you're right, we do know of someone(several people, actually) who may look at Tifa in a romantic light which then explains why she's a koibito(though there's no gurantee anywhere that it's Cloud).

So you believe Tifa is loved by someone, but that she doesn't love them back. Now, explain why this point was important enough to be told to us if Tifa's "koibito" is never actually shown in the movie being in love with her.
Though, this is all irrelevant, because koibito means a mutual love, hence why the word "lover" is used to translate it. You can't be someone's lover without them being yours back. It takes two to tango, and two to do other things. Cloud is the only option we are given, since Tifa is never shown in romantic situations with any other person in the movie. The movie is Cloud's story, and Tifa's role is like a mother, a lover and a close ally in battle. I know connecting the dots is hard when you desperately don't want it to be true, but your crazy interpretations backed up by nothing isn't going to make it any better. We have given proof as to why Cloud is Tifa's koibito, now please give proof that someone else might be. Just saying, "it could be someone else" won't cut it.

Oh, and those translations saying koibito can also be translated as a word almost completely opposite of it's common meaning would be great too. Yes, lots of words have double meanings, but generally they aren't two contradictory things. Makes the word kind of useless if you need to be told which meaning is being used, isn't it?

 

[slightly angelic]

Lonestar47:

I wouldn't want this thread to be banned so I would avoid calling you ignorant in kind.

I didn't claim you were ignorant. What I said was that you'd be ignorant IF you thought that Cleris fans couldn't claim the same thing you were claiming except in reverse, and even added that I hoped that wasn't the case. Are we clear?

Can you give me my own interpretations and explain to me that they are in fact, merely interpretations and not facts from the game? I'm challenging you.

Fair enough.

[Cloud finding his real self in the Lifestream and Tifa discovering that she was the primary reason why Cloud joined SOLDIER/his secret wish/tender memories no one could ever know (quote from memory)]

"secret wish/tender memories" is referring to painful memories of having been blamed for Tifa's fall and ignored by her along with everyone else in town. I don't see this "secret wish/tender memories" in the positive light that you're trying to paint it as.

Meaning that when he finally figures out who he really is, (that is, waking up to his real self and not waking up believing that he's 1st Class SOLDIER Zack)

He never believed he was "first Class SOLDIER Zack". He thought he was first Class SOLDIER Cloud. I'm not one to believe that he took on Zack's memories/identity.

On the other hand, real Cloud never meant Aerith. Aerith played no role with the real Cloud at all.

Which is exactly why Aerith and Cloud still share a special bond two years after her death, one that even Tifa herself(the woman you claim is the only one who met/knows the real Cloud) doesn't have with him? How did that happen, I wonder? Are you going to just erase all the stuff in the middle of the story? Cloud's story begins with Tifa and ends with her, really?

“There’s so much I wanted to tell you but now that we are together I really don’t know what to say…I guess nothing’s changed.” Emphasis on “together.”

"I guess nothing's changed"
Personality-wise, Cloud is still the same. He honestly doesn't know what to say to Tifa. You claim there's emphasis on "together", I don't see it.

And there’s so much he wants to say.

I can see that there's a lot he'd wanted to talk about, but I'm not going to automatically assume it's love he'd wanted to discuss.

And then Tifa tells him words aren’t the only way to tell people how you feel.

Tifa was referring to herself and the fact that she has issues trying to tell Cloud she has romantic feelings for him. She wanted him to know that although she can't exactly say the three words, what she has done for him and the support she's going to give him should be telling enough(darn, she did just decide to stay behind with him when everyone else left, and she did ditch the mission to save the world just so she could stay by his side to look after him, her reason for continuing the fight that's about to occur is him, etc.). You think she's offering her body to Cloud, I think differently.

Cloud's reaction: "..." tells me he has no idea what she's referring to.

Something “risqué” as the authors implied? Most probably.

I didn't see the author implying that something "risque" happened. What I saw them say was "You thought THAT was risque? Man, it would have been a hundred times worse if we'd gone with our original Chocobo stable idea".

Else, how can you explain Tifa’s embarrassment the next morning after which she woke up with her head resting on Cloud's shoulder.

Because it's unusual that Tifa would reveal feelings like that to Cloud, especially in front of everyone else? Because her head was resting on his shoulder? It doesn't necessarily mean they actually had s3x on pointy rocks.

There’s no reason for Tifa to be embarrassed if she and Cloud were merely expressing feelings of approaching battle or feelings of support, or whatever illogical feelings (that would not fit with the scenario) cleriths claim they expressed. Or you can say it was a long night and they expressed everything they possibly could've expressed.

Like I tried to explain, they caught her trying to confess her feelings to Cloud. She's shy, not very confident in herself, and often keeps her feelings to herself...no? As for what's logical and not logical, the only thing that's been revealed by the writers is that Tifa teaches Cloud he isn't fighting alone. Not sure why your ideas would be logical and those of Cleris fans wouldn't be.

Oh and then there’s also that calling in each other’s hearts. Beat that. Friends calling to each other in each others' hearts.

It's really quite optional whether Cloud heard her or not. In one scene, he's saying he thinks he heard her. In another, he's less sure. Why should it be used as proofz? Even if he did hear her, what's to say that he understood the meaning behind why she brought that up in the first place?

Cloud and Tifa reached a new level of initmacy that Aerith could have never reached with Cloud. 1) Because she's dead and 2) She've never really met the real Cloud to begin with.

Explain Cloud and Aerith's bond, the one Tifa doesn't share with Cloud. 'Nough said.

Who's that person you're talking about? I certainly didn't mention anyone specific. Scribble. X.
I'm right that we know of someone (several someones) who looks at Tifa in a romantic light? I said that? Scribble. X.

First off, if I'm not making any sense, it might be because you're not reading my posts or comprehending them. Do ask for an explanation if you're not getting it. I don't mind.

Second of all, you were talking about Tifa's koibito. I corrected you in saying that Tifa is the koibito being talked about. We're not talking about her koibito.

Thirdly, you're the one who claimed there's someone specific Nomura is referring to. I didn't make that claim.

EDIT:
Ammy:

Though, this is all irrelevant, because koibito means a mutual love, hence why the word "lover" is used to translate it. You can't be someone's lover without them being yours back. It takes two to tango, and two to do other things. Cloud is the only option we are given, since Tifa is never shown in romantic situations with any other person in the movie.

I have my own sources that tell me otherwise. I've heard it *can* be mutual(hence why the word "lover" is used as *a* translation) but doesn't necessarily have to be. It's certain that person A loves person B...hence, person B is the koibito(or one who is romantically loved). Person B's feelings for person A is unknown. That's the definition I've heard from several people who are fluent in the language and several Japanese natives themselves. It's quite moot to discuss your other questions unless we can somehow agree on the definition of koibito, IMO.

 

[Serene]

No offense, but you can't expect us to simply take your word on that, any more than I'd expect you to take our word. That's why unbiased references are always nice to see. Can you provide any? I've seen it mentioned in a couple of places that "koi" isn't necessarily mutual, but nowhere have I seen that "koibito" isn't mutual. As I explained on the previous page, compound words don't take on all of the nuances of their root words. Otherwise, words like "fireman" and "lovesick" would have dozens of definitions.

 

[Infinity D]

I didn't claim you were ignorant. What I said was that you'd be ignorant IF you thought that Cleris fans couldn't claim the same thing you were claiming, and even added that I hoped that wasn't the case. Are we clear?

Mind you. Is there a big difference between “you’re b****” and “I hope you’re not b**** enough to___” Whether you outright claimed it our not, the point is that you were rude. That is something you can’t deny.

"secret wish/tender memories" is referring to painful memories of having been blamed for Tifa's fall and ignored by her along with everyone else in town. I don't see this "secret wish/tender memories" in the positive light that you're trying to paint it as.

And this changes the fact that Tifa was the primary reason why Cloud joined SOLDIER? Tender memories indeed refer to Cloud’s painful memories. But why do you neglect his secret wish? Why do you neglect to elaborate on why it was so painful for him to be blamed? Why does he care so much that he was blamed? Could it be because his secret wish was to protect Tifa? He was so devastated that he picked fights just for someone, Tifa, to notice him. As well as others, but particularly point out Tifa. Now, the words tender memories and secret wish came out together when we discovered Tifa was Cloud’s primary reason for joining SOLDIER. Don’t blame me for how positive and bright it was painted. I merely summarized the scene.

He never believed he was "first Class SOLDIER Zack". He thought he was first Class SOLDIER Cloud. I'm not one to believe that he took on Zack's memories.

Are you sure about that? Then why did Cloud believed he went back to Nibelheim in Zack's role? He thought that he was the one who took a photograph picture with Tifa and Sephiroth before going to the reactor, when it was not him but Zack. That’s not taking Zack’s memories? Remember Tifa saying that it worried her that there were some things Cloud knew that he shouldn’t have and some things that he didn’t know and should have?

Which is exactly why Aerith and Cloud still share a special bond two years after her death, one that even Tifa herself(the woman you claim is the only one who met/knows the real Cloud) doesn't have with him? How did that happen, I wonder? Are you going to just erase all the stuff in the middle of the story? Cloud's story begins with Tifa and ends with her, really?

Now, now, now. It's not just my claim that Tifa knows the real Cloud. It's a fact. Are you telling me that you deny everything that happened in the Lifestream? That Cloud still thinks he's a 1st class SOLDIER? Pretty screwy dontcha think. Who's deleting the large chunk of important scenes here?
And I didn't say Cloud's story begins and ends with Tifa [although now that you mention it, it does begin and end with Tifa] I implied that Tifa was one of the few people last seen with the real 16 years old Cloud and the first who meets the real 21 years old Cloud. Don't twist my words like you might do the FF7 plot.
And this bond you're talking about need to be backed up by evidence from the game. Scenes, quotes, sources? And then if the bond is proven, you need to also prove that it is at the least, implied to be romantic one if you claim your C/A pairing is canon. Please do tell. I'm curious to know if this bond is stronger than the bond Cloud and Tifa has for one another. Can Aerith calls to Cloud's heart the way Tifa does and vice versa?

"I guess nothing's changed"

Personality-wise, Cloud is still the same. He honestly doesn't know what to say to Tifa. You claim there's emphasis on "together", I don't see it.

Exactly. If you assume that his personality is still the same. Why do you assume that his feelings aren’t? Can you prove that his feelings have changed? I’ve already made mant points, most of which you have not addressed.

Emphasis on together? Real Cloud finally together with Tifa.

I can see that there's a lot he'd wanted to talk about, but I'm not going to automatically assume it's love he'd wanted to discuss.

And where exactly did I assume it was love he wanted to discuss? Where did I say that? So you assumed that I assumed that Cloud wanted to discuss something romantic. I merely summarized. there was something Cloud wanted to tell Tifa, and Tifa said words aren't the only ways to tell people how you feel. And then I went on about "??what could it be???" I didn't give the answers for you.

Tifa was referring to herself and the fact that she has issues trying to tell Cloud she has romantic feelings for him. She wanted him to know that although she can't exactly say the three words, what she has done for him and the support she's going to give him should be telling enough(darn, she did just decide to stay behind with him when everyone else left, and she did ditch the mission to save the world just so she could stay by his side to look after him, her reason for continuing the fight that's about to occur is him, etc.). You think she's offering her body to Cloud, I think differently.

Cloud's reaction: "..." tells me he has no idea what she's referring to.

Now that’s a handful. That is ALL interpretation. You still haven’t proved that most of what I summarized are just interpretations. Nevertheless. Whether your interpretation is logical or not, don't forget that it has been confirmed that Cloud and Tifa has mutual feelings.Which is, btw, the reason why I had to write such a huge summary because one of your fellow clerith does not agree with you that Tifa confessed her romantic feelings for Cloud. You see, if you agree that Tifa did confessed her romantic feelings, that means, according to Nojima, Cloud mutually confessed his romantic feelings as well. It is confirmed in 10th ann ultimania. That is why Alantie so ardently argues that there was no such romantic confession from Tifa. She persists that only non-romantic feelings were confessed. Agreeing that Tifa confessed her romantic feelings would mean that both Cloud and Tifa reciprocated their love. Basically, you've just killed your fellow clerith's claim that Tifa hid her romantic feelings for Cloud in the highwind scene. Hence, my summary achieved its intended purpose.

I didn't see the author implying that something "risque" happened. What I saw them say was "You thought THAT was risque? Man, it would have been a hundred times worse if we'd gone with our original Chocobo stable idea".

That’s not the translation I recall. In the interview, they described Tifa’s line as risqué. That’s not implication?

Because it's unusual that Tifa would reveal feelings like that to Cloud, especially in front of everyone else? Because her head was resting on his shoulder? It doesn't necessarily mean they actually had s3x on pointy rocks.

Now that’s a handful again. Just interpretation. You still have not proved that most of what I summarized is merely interpretation. And you know why you can't? It's b/c I avoid interpreting as much as possible. Most of what I wrote is factual summary. *shrug*

Like I tried to explain, they caught her trying to confess her feelings to Cloud. She's shy, not very confident in herself, and often keeps her feelings to herself...no? As for what's logical and not logical, the only thing that's been revealed by the writers is that Tifa teaches Cloud he isn't fighting alone. Not sure why your ideas would be logical and those of Cleris fans wouldn't be.

Again. You’re not proving that what I summarized is merely interpretation. Your response only proves that as a clerith, you have to put in a lot more effort and a lot more of interpreting than clotis. It takes much more effort to disapprove of Tifa and Cloud as canon than it does to support it. [Note, that's why you cleriths sometimes contradict each other] As a cloti, all I have to do is summarize the plot and ask a few common sense questions, and thinks get heated.

And even with this response, you are supporting Cloud's and Tifa's mutual feelinsg since you are affirming that Tifa expressed something romantic towards Cloud. The quote you quoted me was in response to Alantie's insisting that Tifa hid her romantic feelings from Cloud. You contradict her. I'm not saying that you can't contradict her just b/c you both are cleriths, but you do realize why she insisted that Tifa hid her romantic feelings from Cloud during the highwind scene right?

It's really quite optional whether Cloud heard her or not. In one scene, he's saying he thinks he heard her. In another, he's less sure. Why should it be used as proofz? Even if he did hear her, what's to say that he understood the meaning behind why she brought that up in the first place?

It’s not optional at all. In both the high and low version, both Tifa and Cloud hear each other’s voice in their hearts. It’s only the dialogue that changed in the scene. The implications are still there. Speaking of implications, you still need to prove that there are even implications for cleriths.

Explain Cloud and Aerith's bond, the one Tifa doesn't share with Cloud. 'Nough said.

Mind you. I’m not a clerith. You need to prove your own case. You have not provided your proof. At least Cloud and Tifa can hear each other’s voices in their hearts. Can Aerith do the same?
Or how about this, since you do so love to bring in this reverse thing. Interesting enough, your rhethoric sounds familiar, just like one of the other cleriths.

Explain Cloud and Tifa's bond, the one Aerith doesn't share with Cloud. 'Nough said.

Just sayin'. I don't expect you to just like you shouldn't expect me to prove your case for you. Silly request ne.

First off, if I'm not making any sense, it might be because you're not reading my posts or comprehending them. Do ask for an explanation if you're not getting it. I don't mind.

Second of all, you were talking about Tifa's koibito. I corrected you in saying that Tifa is the koibito being talked about. We're not talking about her koibito.

Thirdly, you're the one who claimed there's someone specific Nomura is referring to. I didn't make that claim.

I comprehend them perfectly.
You need not correct me on talking about Tifa’s koibito because I deliberately formed my question to rhetorically inquire who this mysterious koibito is. Perhaps it is you who do not understand the intent of that inquiry.
Third point. You're confused. You are confused.

 

[Ammy]

It's quite moot to discuss your other questions unless we can somehow agree on the definition of koibito, IMO.

Sounds more like you just don't have answers, so you'll continue to make up this "other" definition of koibito because it means you don't have to admit that Tifa is in a mutual romantic relationship with someone and that the only person it could be is Cloud.

If you bothered to read my post, the last part was asking you about this definition and for you to answer some questions according to your understanding of it being true. I'll post it again.

Oh, and those translations saying koibito can also be translated as a word almost completely opposite of it's common meaning would be great too. Yes, lots of words have double meanings, but generally they aren't two contradictory things. Makes the word kind of useless if you need to be told which meaning is being used, isn't it?

As it's already been asked, give proof of these other meanings? By any chance, these people telling you this, are they also Clerith's? Could it be that they might want it to have a different meaning to disprove something that very openly states Cloud and Tifa as the canon couple? Give sources, dictionaries, posts from people not involved in the LTD, ect. Until you do, you should even be wary of what these "people" are telling you. Find the answer for yourself, rather than relying on people who /are/ could be lying.

 

[Infinity D]

Regarding the word koibito. I just have to add my 2 cents. Its literal translation is lover like many people have already mentioned here. When it is mentioned, the case is always that a mutual love is implied. That's why the translation in RF is sweetheart, because Tifa is somebody's lover. More than a couple of people have already cited sources for its official meaning, so I'm going to try a different approach just for the random sake of it.

From my own knowledge with different languages, I would presume that in all languages, the definition of "one who loves" implies that the person who holds this title is mutually loved in return. That is, although the literal translation is "one who loves" and not "one who is loved" the meaning (not translation) that is ALWAYS co-attached to it is "one who is loved." The question about its meaning is never in question if it is in a language you are familiar with. For instance, in the Thai language, the word "kon ruk” (kon = person, ruk = love) basically means sweetheart, just like koibito. Like koibito, the literal translation is also "one who loves.” And if you are familiar with the language, its meaning is never in question. The one who holds that title (kon ruk) will always be seen as "one who is loved" even if that statement is not the literal translation. I presume it is the same for Japanese (koibito) as in any other language. Only people who are not familiar with the language will question and scrutinize its meaning and literally takes its definition to be “one who loves” while ignoring that native speakers/listeners of that language ALWAYS co-attach “one who is loved” to its meaning. As foreigners to the language, your ear/mind is not instinctively familiar with its usage. When Nomura stated that Tifa is a koibito, there is no questioning that, as he is a native Japanese speaker, his usage of koibito for Tifa will always be understood by Japanese listeners that she is someone who is loved. The only mental work anyone has to do, is figure out who Tifa is a koibito to. ... Which...I know. It's hard to figure out who that person is. ..Really really hard. And I'm not being sarcastic.. b/c this is in regards to Cleriths... for anyone else who is impartial. Kapeesh.

 

[misbegotten_noob]

"secret wish/tender memories" is referring to painful memories of having been blamed for Tifa's fall and ignored by her along with everyone else in town. I don't see this "secret wish/tender memories" in the positive light that you're trying to paint it as.

1. It's simply amazing, amazing, the gymnastics that you do to give a very simple and widely understood expression like 'tender memories' such spectacularly asinine interpretation.

2. Despite the supposed unpleasantness that you claim there was. Cloud holds the promise they made very dear to himself. Something he feels he must always keep. Even as he would get beaten up in BC the last words he'd say "I'm sorry I couldn't keep my promise to her". This is not an interpretation by the way, 10th Ultimania. That is something he shared with Tifa that shapes his whole life and something that by his own admission drives him towards his dream.

Explain Cloud and Aerith's bond, the one Tifa doesn't share with Cloud. 'Nough said.

Hahaha. Uff... stomp that foot! Aerith doesn't share a bond of lovers, she shares a 'special' one instead. That's how friends or parents are often referred to, "I have a special bond with my father." Tifa feels insecure because she doesn't fully understand why Cloud is behaving towards her the way he does and instead there is something unresolved between him and Aerith (who was a love rival of sorts) that she can't help with. It's not exactly out of the ordinary that she'd think all sorts of thoughts given the context. But if you want to prove that this connection actually is Cloud's romantic love, we are back to square one, go ahead and prove it -- please, we expect consistency with the story and creators' commentary. Because when the rift between Cloud and Tifa is reavealed for what it really is there are no romantic reasons for it whatever Tifa might have wondered or not wondered about. Because Aerith's meaning to Cloud is defined by the writers as a very special thing just not actually romantic.

In Kingdom Hearts Ultimania it's said that Cloud shares a 'special bond' with Sephiroth. So now I guess we really know why Cloud is running after him... he is just too much into swords.

 

[slightly angelic]

lonestar47:

Whether you outright claimed it our not, the point is that you were rude. That is something you can’t deny.

...if we're talking about being rude, there happens to be plenty of rude people around this place. That's something you can't deny. I don't wish to discuss this issue any further though. Why don't we move on to the LT? I'm not here to discuss who's rude and who isn't.

Are you sure about that? Then why did Cloud believed he went back to Nibelheim as Zack? He remembered everything that Zack remembered. He thought that he was the one who took a photograph picture with Tifa and Sephiroth before going to the reactor. That’s not taking Zack’s memories?

Actually, he remembered he went back to Nibelheim as Cloud, first-class SOLDIER. He never thought he was Zack. True, he put himself in the role that Zack originally had, but really, he only remembered the Nibelheim events because he was there himself and had seen it all take place. Now, if he, for some odd reason, had known Aerith the moment he met her or thought his hometown was Gongaga, I might have believed he took on Zack's memory/identity.

Okay. Look. You’re “just saying.” I don’t buy it. What exactly is this bond? Can you give me proof?

From the the FFVII Ultimania, Tifa's "Compilation Check". Here's the rough translation:

Friend and rival?The complicated feeling toward AerithAs for Aerith, who can be called a love rival since she also has affection to Cloud, Tifa gets along with her as friends. Though it's true, it's not difficult to visualize Tifa's carrying complicated feeling to her, since there's a special bond, which differs to hers, formed between Cloud and Aerith.

It's a special one, one that's causing Tifa to feel complicated towards Aerith, and one that Tifa herself doesn't share with Cloud. O, and don't tell me it's a maternal bond. I've already heard that one.

Exactly. If you assume that his personality is still the same. Why do you assume that his feelings aren’t? Can you prove that his feelings have changed? I’ve already made mant points, all of which you have not addressed.

Let me turn that around and pretty much ask you the same thing. Why do you assume his feelings are still the same just because he's saying his personality is the same? Can you prove that his feelings are still the same? I'm asking for something solid, not an interpretation. In other words, don't rehash your version of the highwind scene.

And where exactly did I assume it was love he wanted to discuss? Where did I say that?

If that's not what you were saying, fine. *shrugs*

Now that’s a handful. That is ALL interpretation. You still haven’t proved that most of what I summarized are just interpretations.

I already proved to you the parts that could be interpreted differently. Everything else matters very little to me, honestly.

That’s not the translation I recall. In the interview, they described Tifa’s line as risqué. That’s not implication?

Here's the rough translation:
Nojima: Yeah, is that the scene with delicate dialogue? It’s written by Kato-san, not me.

Q: “It is not only language that can express feeling.” is quite adult in FF7.

Kitase: Even then, I remember it had been held down the excessive expression.

Nojima: The original idea is more extreme. A scenario is that Cloud walks out of the Chocobo room in HW first, then Tifa walks out next, inquiring the surroundings. But it is rejected by Kitase-san. But at that time, even if we used that dialogue in question, probably none of us had thought it would be a problem like that.

Nojima refers to it as delicate/risky dialogue. The person who mentioned that the line was "risque"/quite adult was the questioner. The SE staffs themselves never said it was. From what I get, Nojima goes on to say what I summarized earlier for you: "You thought THAT was risque? Man, it would have been a hundred times worse if we'd gone with our original Chocobo stable idea".

They even say that if they'd used the original idea with Tifa's dialogue, they wouldn't have thought it'd be problematic like that(meaning, they didn't think anyone would look at it in a risque way). If they see this risque business as problematic, I highly doubt it'd been their intention to begin with.

As a clerith, you have to put in a lot of effort, a lot of interpreting to disapprove of Tifa and Cloud as canon. As a cloti, all I have to do is summarie the plot and ask a few common sense questions, and thinks get heated.

I am putting in a lot of effort to disprove Cloti? I don't know. Looks like you did more typing than I did. *shrugs*

you still need to prove that there are even implications for cleriths.

You mean, you want me to rehash the stuff the other Cleris members here have already brought up?

Things like "Calling"? The "But, I'm...we're here for you" line? The "I can meet her there" line? The fact that Cloud and Aerith's date is the default date? The fact that Cloud and Aerith share a special bond he and Tifa doesn't share? The fact that Aerith's consciousness lives on in Cloud? Official artwork? The fact that Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for a date? etc, etc? The list will go on and on, I swear. To be honest though, I'm not as interested in proving Cleris is canon as I am proving that Cloti isn't canon. Unless SE comes out and say it, there really isn't a canon pairing. I've been in the LTD business long enough to know that much.

The implications are still there.

You do realize that if we were to just use that statement over and over...we'd get nowhere. I'm sure you all knew the implication was there when Cloud sat beside Aerith and said "But I'm...we're here for you, right?"

At least Cloud and Tifa can hear each other’s voices in their hearts.

Meh...Aerith's consciousness lives in Cloud. He hears her all the time...so?

Serene:

No offense, but you can't expect us to simply take your word on that, any more than I'd expect you to take our word. That's why unbiased references are always nice to see. Can you provide any? I've seen it mentioned in a couple of places that "koi" isn't necessarily mutual, but nowhere have I seen that "koibito" isn't mutual. As I explained on the previous page, compound words don't take on all of the nuances of their root words. Otherwise, words like "fireman" and "lovesick" would have dozens of definitions.

I see that the last few posts have all been about the word koibito so I'll just give my answer here in one post. The source I'm trusting is a personal one...so no, I'll have to admit I can't provide a source. I was just told that koibito isn't necessarily mutual because it is technically defined as "one who loves"(that's what I meant). Either I take her words for it, or I take the words of a Cloti + the most common usage found in a dictionary. I don't claim to be knowlegeable in the Japanese language.

For the sake of this discussion though, I'll just give you guys the benefit of the doubt and say that its definition is mutual(that was a part of the definition originally given to me anyway). However, without Cloud's name attached, you guys will have to convince me of a few things.

1)Nomura was talking about roles instead of traits. From official translations, my impression of the grammar is telling me he's referring to traits and that opinion is backed up a native Japanese professional translator who was asked the question and looked at the scan.

2)You guys will have to convince me Nomura wasn't being vague and leaving things up to interpretation(since he has stated that he was leaving the LT open and since he has denied any knowledge of whether Cloud and Tifa, 2 years after the events of FFVII, were an item or not).

Here's an explanation by a Japanese teacher in regards to Nomura's statements:

Perhaps, most of the japanese people think of "koibito" as mutual love.
"That girl is his koibito", in this case the nuance will include "they are going out".
but, "koisuru hito (someone who loves)" is totally one-sided love.

There's a difference between the westerner's and japanese's awareness/conciousness/sense concerning love.
It is probably hard to explain that matter. Its not wrong to say that the teenagers (young people) doesnt use the word koibito, but I am not familiar with that matter.

Words will change everyday. That is what my highschool language teacher said.
It seems that in 100 years, there will be 10% words that will change it's meaning. Thus, perhaps in 10 years, there will be 1% words that will change it's meaning. The same amount there will be "shigo" (dead language/obsolete word).

Well, I dont know in what meaning did Creator Nomura-san say those words but it is a usual occurrence for people to mistook what the creator is trying to convey. For example in novel etc.

This teacher is Japanese and, yet, isn't sure of the meaning behind Nomura's words after looking at the scan because she feels it's unclear. Like I said, I don't claim to have knowledge of the language. I'm not going to assume Nomura solved the LT when that might not exist. What he said was so vague, there have been all kinds of interpretations even from those who have knowledge of the language and those who are Japanese natives. Latch yourselves onto this one little line if you wish...but really, until we have more than one little line with omitted names, there's nothing that's been officially declared in regards to the LT.

misbegotten_noob, I haven't forgotten you. I'll get back to your post as soon as I can.

 

[Ammy]

@slightly angelic

Did we not say find unbiased translators/translations? Fake Japanese teacher's won't cut it in the debate I'm afraid. And as I said, you should find the answer for yourself, not from people with a bias (since I'm assuming this is one of your CxA friends who has this fake Japanese teacher who hardly understands languages, let alone Japanese according to that quote). We have provided links to no biased sources stating koibito translates into mutual lover. Funny that none of them have this mysterious second meaning. You do realize things like Japanese-English dictionaries would have the multiple meanings in them if it existed right?

You don't know Japanese, fine. Go pick up a dictionary then and read what it says about koibito. Then come back to the debate if you still want to.

 

[Infinity D]

Actually, he remembered he went back to Nibelheim as Cloud, first-class SOLDIER. He never thought he was Zack. True, he put himself in the role that Zack originally had, but really, he only remembered the Nibelheim events because he was there himself and had seen it all take place. Now, if he, for some odd reason, had known Aerith the moment he met her or thought his hometown was Gongaga, I might have believed he took on Zack's memory/identity.

Your Aerith would disagree with you. She herself knew that the real Cloud was hidden somewhere. That the persona he took on is not fully his. Refer to your beloved date sequence.

From the the FFVII Ultimania, Tifa's "Compilation Check". Here's the rough translation:

Friend and rival?The complicated feeling toward AerithAs for Aerith, who can be called a love rival since she also has affection to Cloud, Tifa gets along with her as friends. Though it's true, it's not difficult to visualize Tifa's carrying complicated feeling to her, since there's a special bond, which differs to hers, formed between Cloud and Aerith.

It's a special one, one that's causing Tifa to feel complicated towards Aerith, and one that Tifa herself doesn't share with Cloud. O, and don't tell me it's a maternal bond. I've already heard that one.

A special one that I nor I believe any cloti has denied. But one in which you still have yet to justify it as being a romantic. Special is a vague word. You cannot deny that.
Application-wise. What can such a bond accomplish? Can such a bond bring them together as companions to raise a family of two children together? What worth does it possess if it cannot accomplish anything in any realistic sense?

Also. Cloud has different bonds with everyone. Aerith, Sephiroth, Zack. Still, the only person his heart calls out to is Tifa.

Let me turn that around and pretty much ask you the same thing. Why do you assume his feelings are still the same just because he's saying his personality is the same? Can you prove that his feelings are still the same? I'm asking for something solid, not an interpretation. In other words, don't rehash your version of the highwind scene.

Once again, it appears you do not comprehend the intent of my inquiry and have now invited me on another merry-go-round ride. Let me end that and break it down this way. If you can assume that the word “nothing” Cloud was referring to is merely his “personality,” why can’t you more logically to me, insanely to you, assume that the word nothing refers to the feelings he has in relation to his changed environment, changed situations, and everything, everyone?
You want solid proof? I already gave it to you, and it’s not the highwind scene. The fact that you think I might even use that scene for proof in this particular case makes me wonder if you even comprehend the structure of my arguments. Let me give that supporting evidence to you again. Cloud was in a vegetative state for five years. Do you know anyone who woke up from five years of sleeping with newly evolved feelings? Different feelings from the feelings they left off with before going into such a long deep sleep while everything in reality was changing and moving on around him? They must have had some kind of realistic dream adventure to emerge such a different person with such different feelings.


If that's not what you were saying, fine. *shrugs* [/quote]
*chuckles*

I already proved to you the parts that could be interpreted differently. Everything else matters very little to me, honestly.

I still insist that a huge portion of the substance of my post on the previous page was more of a summary than mere interpretation. If you cannot break down what I wrote and prove that it is merely biased interpretation, then you must realize that it is the FF7 plot that is offending and not complying with your interpretation of the LTD.

Here's the rough translation:
Nojima: Yeah, is that the scene with delicate dialogue? It’s written by Kato-san, not me.

Q: “It is not only language that can express feeling.” is quite adult in FF7.

Kitase: Even then, I remember it had been held down the excessive expression.

Nojima: The original idea is more extreme. A scenario is that Cloud walks out of the Chocobo room in HW first, then Tifa walks out next, inquiring the surroundings. But it is rejected by Kitase-san. But at that time, even if we used that dialogue in question, probably none of us had thought it would be a problem like that.

Nojima refers to it as delicate/risky dialogue. The person who mentioned that the line was "risque"/quite adult was the questioner. The SE staffs themselves never said it was. From what I get, Nojima goes on to say what I summarized earlier for you: "You thought THAT was risque? Man, it would have been a hundred times worse if we'd gone with our original Chocobo stable idea".

They even say that if they'd used the original idea with Tifa's dialogue, they wouldn't have thought it'd be problematic like that(meaning, they didn't think anyone would look at it in a risque way). If they see this risque business as problematic, I highly doubt it'd been their intention to begin with.

Almost converted me to a Clerith there.
Now this, I have to interpret. The problem they were referring to was that they didn’t think gamers/people would consider the idea/intent of the scene too mature for an ff game. They thought that even if they had used that original extreme version, according to them, it wouldn’t be considered too risqué for the ff genre and hence wouldn’t even cause a problem [problem of ppl thinking that the scene or dialogue might be too mature for an ff game and hence not suit it. It’s rated T and not M, ne?]. It’s funny to them that even after they toned down an extreme version, this lighter version still causes so much trouble.

Of course, as a clerith, I don’t expect you to buy this interpretation. Everyone.Whatever floats your boat.

I am putting in a lot of effort to disprove Cloti? I don't know. Looks like you did more typing than I did. *shrugs*

Your logic scares me. Judging effort on quantity?

You mean, you want me to rehash the stuff the other Cleris members here have already brought up?

Things like "Calling"? The "But, I'm...we're here for you" line? The "I can meet her there" line? The fact that Cloud and Aerith's date is the default date? The fact that Cloud and Aerith share a special bond he and Tifa doesn't share? The fact that Aerith's consciousness lives on in Cloud? Official artwork? The fact that Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard for a date? etc, etc? The list will go on and on, I swear. To be honest though, I'm not as interested in proving Cleris is canon as I am proving that Cloti isn't canon. Unless SE comes out and say it, there really isn't a canon pairing. I've been in the LTD business long enough to know that much.

Oooh, let’s have a contest.

Not necessarily in order. And most of all. Not EVERYTHING that can be mentioned about Cloud and Tifa’s relationship.
Cloud joined SOLDIER to impress Tifa. Cloud and Tifa made a promise together. Cloud holds onto this promise through BC, CC. Cloud and Tifa spent a night alone together in the highwind scene. Their friends tease them the next morning. Tifa gets embarrassed. Immediately after the end of FF7, Cloud tells Tifa he wants to start a new life and that he’s confident everything will be well now because Tifa is with him. When Tifa was upset, Cloud tells her he will be there to remind her how cheerful she is. He blushes. Cloud and Tifa lives together. Cloud and Tifa raises two children together. There is a drawing of Cloud’s and Tifa’s next to each other in the kids’ room. Tifa has a cloudy wolf ring on her ring finger on her right hand. Barret says Tifa is the one kicking Cloud’s ass into shape. Cid remarks something along the line “I see, in the end it’s the woman who wears the pants.” They have a family portrait of paternal figure Cloud, maternal figure Tifa, daughter Marlene, son Denzel. (chuckles) Tifa is considered a koibito. Rude is known to have a crush on Tifa. Rude is considered Cloud’s goofy rival. At the end of AC, it is stated Cloud gave a shy smile to Tifa. Tifa’s personality and looks were designed to complement Cloud’s. …. ‘Nough said.

You do realize that if we were to just use that statement over and over...we'd get nowhere. I'm sure you all knew the implication was there when Cloud sat beside Aerith and said "But I'm...we're here for you, right?"

You do realize this is the LTD?
I’m sure you knew the implications were there when Cloud was alone with Tifa and he blushes after telling her he’d be there to remind her how cheerful she was. And. I’m sure you realized that Cloud and Tifa were alone during this communication whereas Cloud and Aerith were not alone together. You do realize that Cloud said “I” in regards to Tifa and “we” in regards to Aerith.

Meh...Aerith's consciousness lives in Cloud. He hears her all the time...so?

Meh.. Aerith is with Zack. Cloud and Tifa are alive and can do all sorts of human things together. So?

 

[Daenerys]

Alright, enough is enough. I've seen enough petty insults and rudeness from both sides. And, until staff members are able to read the entirety of this thread to find out what the hell happened, and what will happen to those breaking the rules (if any rules have been broken), this thread will remain closed.