The weakest is 13. 12 is solid. I say 7/10. It definitely compensated for most of the issues haters had.
FFXII: Love It or Hate It?
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evoxpisces
Chocobo Breeder
The first time I played FFXII I hated it. I found the characters bland, the story uninspiring, the soundtrack forgettable, and the gameplay just awkward. Fast forward to a few years later. I start listening to the soundtrack of the game and end up falling in love with it. One of my favorite FF soundtracks now. The music inspired me to go back and replay the game. So I did. And you know what? I loved it! The story was engaging, the characters could use some development but the story is more about the world than the characters so it's somewhat excusable. The gameplay actually became fun also. And I already loved the soundtrack. The only thing, and I do mean the *only* thing I would change is the Gambit system. And I'm not saying scrap it or change it completely. Just...simplify it. I disliked the micromanaging of gambits and sometimes certain combinations didn't work as intended and it took a while to really work out the kinks with it. But nevertheless I am so glad I went back to the game because I would've kept this brilliant game in the "disappointment" category forever.
Drinker_Of_Life
Newbie
I personally loved it, it was not my first final fantasy I played so it too was different battle system but I just saw it as a change in styles and enjoyed the game for what it was made for. 
Marzarret
Black Arrow
In terms of Gameplay, Graphics, Attacks, Spells, and everything, FF12 is great topnotch. My only complain about the game is on the supposedly main character. Vaan doesn't play a major role on the storyline but a viewpoint and foil, an observer of the actions of the other characters as thing unfolded throughout the game. He's not the big shot Hero like Cloud, Squall, and Tidus where the story revolves to them and connects to them. Though doing it gives a balance of opportunity and exposure among all the playable characters in the game, it does kind of feel that it had lacks something somehow, well that's my personal opinion of course. Square Enix might have spend too much time developing the gameplay and graphics of the 12th installment that the characters and the character development had been somehow been left out.
Fenikkusu
Chocobo Breeder
I do really enjoy the battle system if I'm honest, but i felt like the game was really "easy" the main storyline anyways... Even without any kind of power levelling or grinding i still feel like the bosses were far too easy and the game was way shorter than it should have been, I just played it and played it then when i beat the final boss i was like... wow , the games over already ? :/ slightly saddened about that. Great game though still !
One of my personal favorites! The best thing of this game is: NO MORE FREAKING RANDOM BATTLES!!!!
I was sooooooo glad that square had the balls to kick the random battle shit into oblivion! And with a battle system that is so logical, that makes the Random Battles even....more unlogical and annoying! I mean invisible anemies attacking out of no where?!! I mean come on!
Ok, i understand that the older final fantasy's had it (thats what i keep telling myself, to legimit the random encounter! ) because of hardware limittations. But when 12 came i was awstruck, and the older games felt... well old after this. Truly wonderfull! Even grinding was a blast!!!
Have you ever try to think of the amount off time we all have wasted on the screens that takes us into the battle screen after a random encounter?! Sure it takes seconds, but after litterlally thousands and thousands of fights through all those final fantasy games, it must be hours and hours and.... hours of a fading screen into a battle. Its crazy really. Look at ff 9, those battles take almost 15 seconds before you can push a button. The camera takes its time to show every enemy first....oh man!
I love ff12 for being the first final fantasy to show balls an be different and managed it! ALSO: I AM A PROUD MEMEMBER OF THE ORDER OF AMBROSIA!
I was sooooooo glad that square had the balls to kick the random battle shit into oblivion! And with a battle system that is so logical, that makes the Random Battles even....more unlogical and annoying! I mean invisible anemies attacking out of no where?!! I mean come on!
Ok, i understand that the older final fantasy's had it (thats what i keep telling myself, to legimit the random encounter! ) because of hardware limittations. But when 12 came i was awstruck, and the older games felt... well old after this. Truly wonderfull! Even grinding was a blast!!!
Have you ever try to think of the amount off time we all have wasted on the screens that takes us into the battle screen after a random encounter?! Sure it takes seconds, but after litterlally thousands and thousands of fights through all those final fantasy games, it must be hours and hours and.... hours of a fading screen into a battle. Its crazy really. Look at ff 9, those battles take almost 15 seconds before you can push a button. The camera takes its time to show every enemy first....oh man!
I love ff12 for being the first final fantasy to show balls an be different and managed it! ALSO: I AM A PROUD MEMEMBER OF THE ORDER OF AMBROSIA!
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What? I mean... can you connect to Cloud? Lightning? Tidus? Zidane? Squall? I can't think of a single main character in Final Fantasy who even begins to have a life one could relate to EXCEPT possibly Vaan.
Cloud was practically a superhero who was among other superheroes in the military. Lightning is practically a superhero soldier-cop who hunted monsters that attacked towns. Tidus is a superstar sports player. Zidane (from what I gather) is a surprisingly-well-doing knife-wielding, hunting street urchin living among friends who take care of him-- but not in a way that is realistic. Squall is a teenager living in a highschool-slash-mercenary-school.
Vaan? Some burly street kid who worked part-time for a general store and who liked to go out hunting. He had an average, decently-likeable teenager personality and was a good audience surrogate. Not counting the argument of how he isn't the main character, is the argument of not being able to connect with him really just the argument of wanting some superhero anime stereotype to play through? I don't get the hate for Vaan. Not that YOU hate him, but...
I agree with almost everything you said. However, I feel like they knew exactly what they were doing with their characters, and their characters were fine. I just feel like they didn't know their AUDIENCE. You see, you can write things so that the characters are all likeable and important and you get a good audience surrogate like Vaan. But if you don't please the large number of Final Fantasy players who want their edgy and/or superhero badass main anime characters, well... That's where I think most of the hate for XII all boils down to. It's too down-to-earth and the main character doesn't have enough melodrama and/or isn't a big enough superpower. Japanese fiction is all about over-the-top stuff, melodrama, and sensationalism; and most JRPG players want those things.
There are also plenty of haters of those things. Spoony comes to mind. I personally dislike manga and anime for those traits, but I love Final Fantasy!
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You make a good point. I think that is part of the problem which FFXII has with appealing to many Final Fantasy fans.
Many people expect to find role models in people who are extraordinary, not ordinary. Protagonists' stories and actions are often unrealistic, but they might inspire the player to be a little bit braver, or it might be therapeutic for the players to daydream about being stronger and more interesting than they are themselves. Many FF characters are ridiculously young to be competent superheroes and world saviors. Yet Squall (living in a world where schools are militarised and keep dinosaurs in their training areas), Cloud (who assumes the identity of an elite warrior and easily carries off the act convincingly), and so on thrive in their roles and we often don't notice how unrealistic it is... These characters are too young to be doing this sort of thing (how many of us saved the world at 18 or in our early twenties?), and yet they completely own their roles and carry out their tasks nearly effortlessly. Yes, some characters moan a few times and have moments of doubt, but for the most part they look cool doing it. This is the nature of the fantasy genre.
Meet FFXII. Vaan (and Penelo - the female Vaan) were a little bit closer to the personalities of the player (or people known by the player - I for one cannot claim to have ever acted like Vaan, but I have known people who did... I can't say the same thing about Cloud, Squall, Zidane, etc). There was the street urchin / Aladdin themes which we can perhaps discard here, but other than that they are more relatable as people. That sounds like a horrific thing to say (since many people hate Vaan and his painted on abs), but there are moments in FFXII where Vaan and Penelo act their age and act like real people might act (however irritating it is to the observer)... Not all the time, obviously, but there are a few scenes I remember where Vaan and Penelo are just chatting and giggling in the background while the 'adults' and more traditional fantasy heroes discuss politics and the most sensible course of action.
Vaan and Penelo don't 'own' the situation that they find themselves in like most FF protagonists do. They sometimes take a backseat. In a way that is unsettling as players want their leads to be extraordinary in one way or another (and for the character to progress and improve even more).
Now I have to admit here that I never managed to complete FFXII, and I'm not sure if Vaan and Penelo changed. It has also been a while since I played the game, so I could have the wrong impression entirely. However, that is the impression I have based on my memory of the game, and the comments that others have made about the game over the years.
I don't hate the game, and I don't love it either. It's an unusual Final Fantasy, but it has its own merits.
I love Vaan, and you outlined one of the several reasons I do. Vaan is a "real" person, for lack of a better word. Vaan is talking out of his butt to Penelo trying to show off at one point and arguing with her while the adults are talking about important things. It's so refreshing to see people acting like real people, including being full of it but with good intentions. He's not always the smartest, but he's sympathetic and quick to action when he needs to be. And I have to say, I did beat FF XII several times; and while Vaan doesn't change heavily, he does mature a little and you definitely can believe that someone like him did some of the amazing things he did. Vaan is someone *I* could look up to, even if he can be a bit childish sometimes. Penelo is also a character I would want to have by my side. Supportive, strong, with a level head on her shoulders. Her advice is genuine and she's always open-minded while trying to keep everyone out of trouble. She's like a real person-- and a fantastic friend and teammate. How could I hate these two?
Solemn I agree that Vaan is a fine character (heck, I spent like ten minutes speaking on just that topic alone in my YouTube review of XII), and I also agree that it's interesting to see the series use a realistic character as the main character. But I think it's silly to imply that that makes him objectively more relate-able or anything like that; and I think it's equally silly to assume people who find more fantastical characters more relate-able do so for superficial reasons (like that they're looking for "...edgy and/or superhero badass main anime characters..."). You know why I relate to Cloud? Because he's someone who struggles with who he is, and what he's worth. You know why I relate to Zidane? Because he unabashedly cares for people, even when he doesn't know them at all. The idea of letting them down tears him up. You know why I relate to Tidus? Because I value his indomitable will to keep those around him moving forward, even at his own expense. While stylized to be less realistic in many of their characteristics, I and many other people relate to these characters for reasons beyond just their career backgrounds, their skills, and their superficial traits.
By boiling down the entire fanbase for these characters like you are, you're treating innocent people just like the crybaby XII haters would treat you for liking Vaan. You're making assumptions about them that seem rather unfair.
You seem to be conflating people's reasons for hating Vaan (which are things like his 'average-ness', supposedly 'boring nature' and his androgynous design), with why people relate to these other characters. And that's not true, nor logical. You should take a few steps back, so you can see that your frustration for the undeserved backlash XII gets, is getting in the way of you separating the real buttheads from those that just aren't that into the game.
Same thing goes for your seeming hatred of manga and anime, which is about as broad and unfair as saying you 'hate music'. But that's a topic for somewhere other than this thread
By boiling down the entire fanbase for these characters like you are, you're treating innocent people just like the crybaby XII haters would treat you for liking Vaan. You're making assumptions about them that seem rather unfair.
You seem to be conflating people's reasons for hating Vaan (which are things like his 'average-ness', supposedly 'boring nature' and his androgynous design), with why people relate to these other characters. And that's not true, nor logical. You should take a few steps back, so you can see that your frustration for the undeserved backlash XII gets, is getting in the way of you separating the real buttheads from those that just aren't that into the game.
Same thing goes for your seeming hatred of manga and anime, which is about as broad and unfair as saying you 'hate music'. But that's a topic for somewhere other than this thread
Okay, I understand.
And so do characters in Crisis Core. And so does Roxas in Kingdom Hearts. But you know what the thing is? For all the love that Japan has towards melodramatic character existentialism, I've never seen their stories actually explore or philosophize about any of it. Japan's got a different way of thinking about things, and they have yet to have any cultural events or movements that would cause them to explore philosophy and mental health to the degree the West does. But maybe someday, I hope!
I haven't played a lot of IX, but either way, I don't see that like you do. But if I'd have to compare what I think you're describing to something I do know, I'd say Steven from Steven Universe. He genuinely cares about everyone and sees the best in them and everything else. And if Zidane is to you like Steven is to me, I can see why you would look up to him.
I just want to say that the thing that came to mind when you said that was Cloud at the end of the game, before going into the crater to fight JENOVA and Sephiroth for the final time.
That's not exactly the attitude I have towards fans, but I REALLY don't think anyone has any business hating Vaan. Not finding him appealing? Yeah, I get it. But hating him? I don't get that.
Same thing goes for your seeming hatred of manga and anime, which is about as broad and unfair as saying you 'hate music'. But that's a topic for somewhere other than this thread
Now, now. Even a little analytical thought will reveal that "manga" neither directly means "comic book" any more than "movie" actually means "moving picture" in its broadest sense. And manga is a very specific form of art (with very specific, unique, even NAMED art and storytelling tropes and conventions which you don't find anywhere else except in art inspired by manga)-- not a broad one. I see this argument from about half the people I talk about manga and anime to, and it's a semantic argument that prevents anyone from moving past it and actually getting to a point. Please. But yeah, this is for a different thread.
Besides, I don't hate ALL manga and anime. I like DBZ (which-- and this is a complex subject-- borders on anime at best, if you're defining it by the tropes and conventions used in manga and anime and not just "animation made in Japan"), but I also love most Digimon seasons and I have guilty pleasures with Sailor Moon and Chobits. I also have a guilty pleasure with Power Rangers, and I love Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts. When I say "I hate manga", I really mean many conventions unique to manga and anime.
Solemn Hopefully I didn't come off as someone trying to scold you or anything. Reading my comment back, it kinda came off that way. I was just trying to highlight the fine line between defending ones beliefs, and unintentionally marginalizing/generalizing beyond the intended scope of ones words. It's a trap that literally everyone is constantly tripping over, lol.
I put the following behind a spoiler tag because this is technically a thread about FFXII, and not FFVII.
As far as Vaan haters go, I personally only care what people say against him when they try to treat their opinions as fact, or they make claims of quality without actually providing any facts to back it up. The most common things they ignore, are the more grounded nature of the story in XII, and the fact that Vaan is intended to be a vessel for the player, both of which drastically alter what we should expect from him. Saying he's a bad character because he seems naïve, unskilled, and lacks the depth a main character 'should have', ignores the goals of his design completely. That's like saying Ratchet and Clank is a terrible game because it's not like Cool Boarders. If R&C isn't trying to be a snowboarding game, why would anyone ever judge it as if it was?
But I don't mind when people hate him. I hate listening to Technical Death Metal; doesn't mean I don't also understand that it's incredibly musically complex. I hate playing most puzzle games, but many puzzle games are still fantastic in every way. Yeah, you can then get more into the difference between hating to do something, and just hating that something itself. But that to me is really getting into rather pointless semantics, because it's pretty clear usually, who is hostile in their opinions, and who just really doesn't like or prefer something.
Sending you a PM about manga/anime.
I put the following behind a spoiler tag because this is technically a thread about FFXII, and not FFVII.
FFVII actually does a fantastic job truly reflecting on identity issues. But it does this through holding Sephiroth up to Cloud, to serve as a mirror of sorts. These two characters come from the same mold. Men, driven initially by a want to do good in the world, and driven to prove themselves worthy to those around them. Men, both experimented on, and effectively turned into monsters. Men, who eventually find that they have been living a lie. The reflection comes from how the two of them choose to deal with these issues. We see Cloud start down the same path Sephiroth takes, fighting urges to forsake the world, and blaming it on the Jenova Cells inside him to hide from the reality that he is the one who hits Aeris... he is the one who gives up the Black Materia. But eventually we see him come out the other side, having ultimately taken the path Sephiroth did not. He found what he was worth by asking why those around him still stick by his side. Through the way the story is presented, I think the game does a great job of exploring identity issues.
As far as Vaan haters go, I personally only care what people say against him when they try to treat their opinions as fact, or they make claims of quality without actually providing any facts to back it up. The most common things they ignore, are the more grounded nature of the story in XII, and the fact that Vaan is intended to be a vessel for the player, both of which drastically alter what we should expect from him. Saying he's a bad character because he seems naïve, unskilled, and lacks the depth a main character 'should have', ignores the goals of his design completely. That's like saying Ratchet and Clank is a terrible game because it's not like Cool Boarders. If R&C isn't trying to be a snowboarding game, why would anyone ever judge it as if it was?
But I don't mind when people hate him. I hate listening to Technical Death Metal; doesn't mean I don't also understand that it's incredibly musically complex. I hate playing most puzzle games, but many puzzle games are still fantastic in every way. Yeah, you can then get more into the difference between hating to do something, and just hating that something itself. But that to me is really getting into rather pointless semantics, because it's pretty clear usually, who is hostile in their opinions, and who just really doesn't like or prefer something.
Sending you a PM about manga/anime.
They call that kind of character an "audience surrogate", which is something I mentioned a few times in my post!
FinalxxSin
Anti-Hero
I may have a misconception with Vaan. I have always been under the impression that he's suppose to be a main main character. If I don't have that misconception on that, then I do dislike Vaan for the little amount of impact he has on the game from my outlook. Typically, main main characters have a good chunk of the story revolve around them, and/or they are critical at certain times during the story line due to a variety of possible scenarios playing out. I'm sure somebody has already mentioned this, but Vaan could be written out..and I don't think much would have changed. Take Ashe out, on the other hand, and you get radically different results.
Far as the game itself goes, I'm indifferent about it. There aren't enough aspects that have a majority of likes and dislikes to me. Perhaps that will change with the international version finally coming out in the west next year, but I doubt it.
Far as the game itself goes, I'm indifferent about it. There aren't enough aspects that have a majority of likes and dislikes to me. Perhaps that will change with the international version finally coming out in the west next year, but I doubt it.
He's supposed to have little impact overall. There's a difference in writing between what one would call a 'main character' and a 'central character'. A main character is who we see the story through. A central character is one the story revolves around. Ashe is the most central character in the game (though it uses an ensemble cast format for the most part). Vaan is supposed to be us, and therefore the main character (Penelo also holds this audience surrogate role to some extent). Tidus is us/main, Yuna is central. Cloud is us, both Aeris and Sephiroth are central. Main characters can have varying degrees of involvement in the plot. Link and Samus do nothing but react in most of their games. Zelda, Ganon, and the Metroids do much more for the narrative itself. Audience surrogate characters generally have little on the way of character or growth by design, and are meant to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible. That being said, they still can be their own characters to some extent; the important thing is that they defy the player's thoughts and beliefs as little as possible. That's why Vaan's personal growth is largely relegated simply to learning that those leading the empire are evil, when he previously just hated the empire as a whole.
Here's a link to my more in-depth explanation of all this if you're interested. As I said though, it goes on for like ten minutes.
In case the timestamp doesn't work, it starts at about 9:42.
For me, XII's biggest weakness is the staggering lack of spectacle in combat compared to X.
I came seriously into the FF series with VII, and basically grew up watching the trends of instanced abilities that progressively got more and more over the top. What can I say? I love them particle effects! The flow of X was also rather quick (And even quicker with X-2). I always felt like despite the turn-based nature of the franchise, there was a kinetic energy to the battles.
And then in my junior year of highschool I got XII and got...well, not what I expected. XII is a fantastic game for the genre that it belongs to, which is to say it's an MMO without any online capabilities. If that's what you enjoy, the game has a ton of depth, versatility, with a surprisingly powerful gambit system, and an almost endless amount of content to pursue outside of the story. But in order to accomplish this broad reaching MMO style gameplay, some sacrifices had to be made.
You can imagine my disappointment when the first time I got into combat, pressed attacked, and was bewildered when the character just kept on attacking without my input. Okay, odd, but maybe I can get used to it? Lets try a spell later!
...Tiny fireball projectile. Ehr...Okay...Are there limit breaks? Wait, those need to be unlocked far later in the game?
My hopes started rapidly dwindling as I continued to progress, trying and failing to maintain my party, mostly due to a complete lack of interest in what was happening on the screen. Call me an ADHD graphics junkie, but I like what I like. This was often compounded by the fact that I just could not give two damns about Vaan and Panello, nor the largely isolated nature of the story at the point I was playing it. Finally, when Youtube started being a thing, I got to see what the Mist Knacks and Espers looked like, and was floored by how insanely over the top those special effects were. It actually kind of pissed me off that they really did have the ability to wow me, but choose to lump it in parts I couldn't even easily access.
I've tried playing XII multiple times over the last decade it's been on shelves. Every time, I tend to give up within five hours. It's beautiful masterpiece. Sadly, it's just not one I can find any pleasure in due to my makeup as a gamer.
Also as an observation about Vaan's purpose
If you think about it, XII is kind of strongly based on the Star Wars main trilogy, and the Cambelian archtypes that it uses.
Ashe: Princess Leia
Basch: Luke
Balthier: Han Solo
Fran: Chewie
Vaan: R2D2
Panello: C3P0
When you look at it from that perspective, Vaan and Panello are the exact same role the two droids are meant to fulfill: They're the outsiders, observing the story unfold.
I came seriously into the FF series with VII, and basically grew up watching the trends of instanced abilities that progressively got more and more over the top. What can I say? I love them particle effects! The flow of X was also rather quick (And even quicker with X-2). I always felt like despite the turn-based nature of the franchise, there was a kinetic energy to the battles.
And then in my junior year of highschool I got XII and got...well, not what I expected. XII is a fantastic game for the genre that it belongs to, which is to say it's an MMO without any online capabilities. If that's what you enjoy, the game has a ton of depth, versatility, with a surprisingly powerful gambit system, and an almost endless amount of content to pursue outside of the story. But in order to accomplish this broad reaching MMO style gameplay, some sacrifices had to be made.
You can imagine my disappointment when the first time I got into combat, pressed attacked, and was bewildered when the character just kept on attacking without my input. Okay, odd, but maybe I can get used to it? Lets try a spell later!
...Tiny fireball projectile. Ehr...Okay...Are there limit breaks? Wait, those need to be unlocked far later in the game?
My hopes started rapidly dwindling as I continued to progress, trying and failing to maintain my party, mostly due to a complete lack of interest in what was happening on the screen. Call me an ADHD graphics junkie, but I like what I like. This was often compounded by the fact that I just could not give two damns about Vaan and Panello, nor the largely isolated nature of the story at the point I was playing it. Finally, when Youtube started being a thing, I got to see what the Mist Knacks and Espers looked like, and was floored by how insanely over the top those special effects were. It actually kind of pissed me off that they really did have the ability to wow me, but choose to lump it in parts I couldn't even easily access.
I've tried playing XII multiple times over the last decade it's been on shelves. Every time, I tend to give up within five hours. It's beautiful masterpiece. Sadly, it's just not one I can find any pleasure in due to my makeup as a gamer.
Also as an observation about Vaan's purpose
If you think about it, XII is kind of strongly based on the Star Wars main trilogy, and the Cambelian archtypes that it uses.
Ashe: Princess Leia
Basch: Luke
Balthier: Han Solo
Fran: Chewie
Vaan: R2D2
Panello: C3P0
When you look at it from that perspective, Vaan and Panello are the exact same role the two droids are meant to fulfill: They're the outsiders, observing the story unfold.
Captain Snuffles
Newbie
When people talk about connecting with or relating to characters within a story, it's more to do with certain struggles, wants, needs, and other traits or experiences they have that are more identifiable in real life. Their fantastical aspects and otherworldly lives are just the dressing on top of the real meat. That's why a lot of fantasy heroes can actually resonate with so many people despite their outlandish worlds, vocations, and generally insane lives. Execution and the way the character behaves is also a factor in how believable or "realistic" they come off as too. As for how well Final Fantasy pulls it off, it more or less varies from product to product.
And in the end, Vaan is just...not very charismatic. Neither is Squall, but Squall has pathos, so he can draw empathy from other kinds of people.
Vaan is just obnoxious.
Lol, Vaan doesn't do or say enough to be obnoxious. At most he's ignorable-y bland (though those aren't my feelings). Being charismatic doesn't really mean anything in terms of inherent relate-ability. It's more about them exhibiting any behavior that can be related to by someone. Many people can relate to being uncharismatic, even when it's not a defining characteristic like it is for Squall.
That being said, I think Vaan is moderately charismatic. But the traits that make him the most relate-able to the most people, are really his determination, his patriotic lust to help his country, and his charming lighthearted demeanor. That and -as Solemn has said- his more grounded and realistic background. How much that means to someone is rather subjective of course.
I'm glad I'm not the only one with similar feelings about Vaan or this game. I don't feel so alone anymore about it.