Final Fantasy has gone down-hill

[Sheechiibii]

Like i said before i have never played XIII so i cannot argue anything about except its sales....but base on your comment i can say the same thing about FFVIII i never personally like but did can't deny the fact that it was successful!!see my point.
This leads me to another discussion, if FFXIII was a downhill or unsuccessful then why did FFXIII-2 sales tons of copies?

Thanks for agreeing with me for the most part..

FFXIII-2 sold less than half the amount of copies XIII sold (3mil compared to 6.6mil) LR did abysmally in comparison as it got only 1mil sales. That, to me, shows that XIII was not a success or it's sequel would have done better, as it is they dropped by more than half every time. The same does apply to VIII, and any other game in a franchise like FF. People who have loved the previous games buy the next game before judging if they'll really like it. The problem though, is that when people don't like it, it damages sales of future games because people are no longer willing to just buy the next game purely because it's a Final Fantasy.

 

[Battlecry]

FFXIII-2 sold less than half the amount of copies XIII sold (3mil compared to 6.6mil) LR did abysmally in comparison as it got only 1mil sales. That, to me, shows that XIII was not a success or it's sequel would have done better, as it is they dropped by more than half every time. The same does apply to VIII, and any other game in a franchise like FF. People who have loved the previous games buy the next game before judging if they'll really like it. The problem though, is that when people don't like it, it damages sales of future games because people are no longer willing to just buy the next game purely because it's a Final Fantasy.

I thought you would say that...Now let's see the Creators view..If it is wasn't successful then why would SE bother to create another sequel???

 

[Sheechiibii]

I thought you would say that...Now let's see the Creators view..If it is wasn't successful then why would SE bother to create another sequel???

Because it was cheap and easy for them to do it (reusing a lot of resources), and would keep them producing new games since they had nothing else ready for a while. The truth is we won't know exactly why they chose to keep making sequels, but we do know that once people played XIII more than half of them were not willing to buy it's sequel, and only 15% bought the whole trilogy. That's not successful.

 

[Battlecry]

So going by your claim.... FFX isn't succesful since FFX-2 sold around 5 mil while its prequel sold around 8 mil.

 

[Sheechiibii]

So going by your claim.... FFX isn't succesful since FFX-2 sold around 5 mil while its prequel sold around 8 mil.

The sales did not drop near so much as XIII's sales. Also you should take into account that X-2 was a very different style of game and that was made obvious by the trailers. XIII-2 however, looked to be very much the same type of game as XIII. You have to admit that sales dropping by 85% is really bad, and that is what the XIII trilogy did.

 

[Battlecry]

The sales did not drop near so much as XIII's sales. Also you should take into account that X-2 was a very different style of game and that was made obvious by the trailers. XIII-2 however, looked to be very much the same type of game as XIII. You have to admit that sales dropping by 85% is really bad, and that is what the XIII trilogy did.

I think X-2 sales drops as much XIII-2 sales check the margin...XIII got a few sales compared to the games that exist since the time of PS1 and PS2 simply because buying a game today is just too expensive and other obvious reasons is Jrpgs have been a total decline on the past 5 years (which gamers wants more games w/ an action rpg type or an open world type of RPG instead of a more gaming story narrative that represents FF series). XIII trilogy drops and so were the other sequels of different titles such as FFVII Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus. But they were still successful aren't they? And its a given fact that most of prequel/sequel games sold less than their predecessor specifically in the FF franchise.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I think X-2 sales drops as much XIII-2 sales check the margin...XIII got a few sales compared to the games that exist since the time of PS1 and PS2 simply because buying a game today is just too expensive and other obvious reasons is Jrpgs have been a total decline on the past 5 years (which gamers wants more games w/ an action rpg type or an open world type of RPG instead of a more gaming story narrative that represents FF series). XIII trilogy drops and so were the other sequels of different titles such as FFVII Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus. But they were still successful aren't they? And its a given fact that most of prequel/sequel games sold less than their predecessor specifically in the FF franchise.

When I said XIII I meant the whole trilogy, not just XIII-2's sales. I wasn't talking about comparing them to previous games in the series. LR only got 15% of the sales XIII got, so therefor XIII's sales had dropped by 85% by the end of the trilogy, that's not just bad that's awful, only 15% of the people who played XIII liked it enough to continue the story to the end. When you're talking about VII's titles, those are spin-offs not direct sequels. The only direct sequels have been from X and XIII.

 

[Battlecry]

When I said XIII I meant the whole trilogy, not just XIII-2's sales. I wasn't talking about comparing them to previous games in the series. LR only got 15% of the sales XIII got, so therefor XIII's sales had dropped by 85% by the end of the trilogy, that's not just bad that's awful, only 15% of the people who played XIII liked it enough to continue the story to the end. When you're talking about VII's titles, those are spin-offs not direct sequels. The only direct sequels have been from X and XIII.

Crisis Core is a direct prequel of FF VII but the sales went down a bunch right since FFVII sales went around 9 mil comapred to CC's 3 mil. Now here is my question is Crisis Core a success or a failure? Which leads me to this question about FF XIII trilogy....did SE earned or they lost a bunch of money???

 

[Sheechiibii]

Crisis Core is a direct prequel of FF VII but the sales went down a bunch right since FFVII sales went around 9 mil comapred to CC's 3 mil. Now here is my question is Crisis Core a success or a failure? Which leads me to this question about FF XIII trilogy....did SE earned or they lost a bunch of money???

Crisis Core is a prequel the same way Revenant Wings is a sequel to FFXII, they're not even on the same console, they're definitely spin-offs. FFX-2 was the first direct sequel to any FF game. SE was not doing very well in the money department at all, they specifically said that X/X-2 HD sales got them out of financial trouble, and considering the only big games they did before that was the XIII trilogy I'd say it couldn't have done them very well.

 

[Battlecry]

Crisis Core is a prequel the same way Revenant Wings is a sequel to FFXII, they're not even on the same console, they're definitely spin-offs. FFX-2 was the first direct sequel to any FF game. SE was not doing very well in the money department at all, they specifically said that X/X-2 HD sales got them out of financial trouble, and considering the only big games they did before that was the XIII trilogy I'd say it couldn't have done them very well.

Still my question,, is Crisis Core a failure even though it makes only around 3 mil?? Most of the time a company wouldn't make any sequel or prequel if the original game wasn't a success considering the fact on how expensive this game are. I dunno wer'd you get the information that SE got out of financial trouble due to the sales of FFX/X-2 HD that barely gets 1 mil unless you show me evidence i might believe you and if the source is actually legit. Like i said before XIII trilogy didn't do well compare to the series from PS1 & Ps2 simply because of the price of today's game and how JRPG's total decline of today's market but it still sells pretty well. To make you an excellent example FFVI sold only around 1 mil w/c i believe it is one of the best FF games ever and sets the standards on the future FF titles after.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Still my question,, is Crisis Core a failure even though it makes only around 3 mil?? Most of the time a company wouldn't make any sequel or prequel if the original game wasn't a success considering the fact on how expensive this game are. I dunno wer'd you get the information that SE got out of financial trouble due to the sales of FFX/X-2 HD that barely gets 1 mil unless you show me evidence i might believe you and if the source is actually legit. Like i said before XIII trilogy didn't do well compare to the series from PS1 & Ps2 simply because of the price of today's game and how JRPG's total decline of today's market but it still sells pretty well. To make you an excellent example FFVI sold only around 1 mil w/c i believe it is one of the best FF games ever and sets the standards on the future FF titles after.

I didn't say Crisis Core was a failure. I said that you can't call something a success solely based on how much money it makes when it's part of a very large franchise where people will buy it purely for it's reputation. I believe I did get the information from the X/X-2 HD wiki page so I don't know for sure how reliable it is, but I didn't say it was only the sales of FFX/X-2 HD, I just meant that they cited those sales as a reason for why they were no longer in such financial trouble, and if they were not doing so well in the financial department it can only really be because of the XIII trilogy considering how much time was spent versus how much money was made on them. Again, I am not comparing the XIII game sales with previous sales from the PS1 and PS2 era. I am comparing XIII sales with XIII:LR sales. The sales dropped by 85% between XIII and XIII:LR and that has nothing to do with the decline in market and everything to do with people not liking the games enough to buy the sequel.

 

[Battlecry]

I didn't say Crisis Core was a failure. I said that you can't call something a success solely based on how much money it makes when it's part of a very large franchise where people will buy it purely for it's reputation. I believe I did get the information from the X/X-2 HD wiki page so I don't know for sure how reliable it is, but I didn't say it was only the sales of FFX/X-2 HD, I just meant that they cited those sales as a reason for why they were no longer in such financial trouble, and if they were not doing so well in the financial department it can only really be because of the XIII trilogy considering how much time was spent versus how much money was made on them. Again, I am not comparing the XIII game sales with previous sales from the PS1 and PS2 era. I am comparing XIII sales with XIII:LR sales. The sales dropped by 85% between XIII and XIII:LR and that has nothing to do with the decline in market and everything to do with people not liking the games enough to buy the sequel.

No you didn't but im basing CC from your comments about how a certain prequel/series sell went down. The one big thing that you totally can say that a certain merchandise succeed is base upon on how much money it earned. Like i said before about the financial issues of SE until it ain't proven as a legit evidence im not going to believe that given the fact that you also ain't sure if that source of info is reliable. A direct Prequel/Sequel as i have said the sales will eventually go down, it was a given fact since if you look at other titles you can spot the obviousness. First of all it doesn't matter if XIII LR was massive drop in terms of sales as long as it earned and going back from the very first argument we have, having two sequels proves the FFXIII is a success.

 

[Sheechiibii]

No you didn't but im basing CC from your comments about how a certain prequel/series sell went down. The one big thing that you totally can say that a certain merchandise succeed is base upon on how much money it earned. Like i said before about the financial issues of SE until it ain't proven as a legit evidence im not going to believe that given the fact that you also ain't sure if that source of info is reliable. A direct Prequel/Sequel as i have said the sales will eventually go down, it was a given fact since if you look at other titles you can spot the obviousness. First of all it doesn't matter if XIII LR was massive drop in terms of sales as long as it earned and going back from the very first argument we have, having two sequels proves the FFXIII is a success.

Yes the sales go down, but do they go down by 85%? Of all the people who bought XIII hardly any of them wanted to continue the trilogy. To me something is successful if it makes money, gets a good reputation, and the fans want more of it. It needs all those things to be successful. A game in a big series like FF getting great sales doesn't mean that particular game is a success, it means the series as a whole has a good enough reputation that hoards of fans will buy the games purely based on them being FF. It means the series is successful, the actual game? Not if most people regret buying it and worse won't be so faithful to just buy the next instalment in the series for its name.

 

[Battlecry]

Yes the sales go down, but do they go down by 85%? Of all the people who bought XIII hardly any of them wanted to continue the trilogy. To me something is successful if it makes money, gets a good reputation, and the fans want more of it. It needs all those things to be successful. A game in a big series like FF getting great sales doesn't mean that particular game is a success, it means the series as a whole has a good enough reputation that hoards of fans will buy the games purely based on them being FF. It means the series is successful, the actual game? Not if most people regret buying it and worse won't be so faithful to just buy the next instalment in the series for its name.

They do FF7 (9 mil) FF CC (3 mil) FF7 DOB (1 mil) so that tarnish FF7 in general simply because its sequel and prequel didn't sell as much as the original base on what your saying. Here is another example and i don't mean to offend any FFX fans out there, FFX-2 is probably the worst game to be ever produce by Square Enix but do i fing it successful??Hell yeah it was...

I could not defend XIII on that matter since i haven't played the game...but to say it wasn't successful that's really irrelevant..it base on a persons opinion and much like most gaming website reviews gave it more a positive reviews.

 

[Sheechiibii]

They do FF7 (9 mil) FF CC (3 mil) FF7 DOB (1 mil) so that tarnish FF7 in general simply because its sequel and prequel didn't sell as much as the original base on what your saying. Here is another example and i don't mean to offend any FFX fans out there, FFX-2 is probably the worst game to be ever produce by Square Enix but do i fing it successful??Hell yeah it was...

I could not defend XIII on that matter since i haven't played the game...but to say it wasn't successful that's really irrelevant..it base on a persons opinion and much like most gaming website reviews gave it more a positive reviews.

As I explained, DoC and CC are not direct sequels, they are spin offs, just like Reverent Wings, or the AC movie. They are not direct sequels like X-2, XIII-2 and XIII:LR. As I've also said numerous times, I am not saying that just because something doesn't sell as well it's unsuccessful. I am saying that just because something sells well does not mean it's a success. Those are two very different points.

I'm not basing this on my opinion of the game. I personally do not like FFVII as well as the other games in the series I've played but I'm not going to say it's unsuccessful just because of that. I personally loved XIII-2 but I'm not going to call it a success just because it made a decent amount of money and I liked it. It, along with XIII and XIII:LR, has damaged the FF series reputation, and that's the opposite of successful when you're making a franchise. As I said, money + good reputation + fan support = success. Money alone does not make something successful, not when it's in a big franchise (got sales in the first place on the previous instalments reputation) and has potentially lost the company future sales (and current sales considering the 85% drop).

 

[Battlecry]

As I explained, DoC and CC are not direct sequels, they are spin offs, just like Reverent Wings, or the AC movie. They are not direct sequels like X-2, XIII-2 and XIII:LR. As I've also said numerous times, I am not saying that just because something doesn't sell as well it's unsuccessful. I am saying that just because something sells well does not mean it's a success. Those are two very different points.

I'm not basing this on my opinion of the game. I personally do not like FFVII as well as the other games in the series I've played but I'm not going to say it's unsuccessful just because of that. I personally loved XIII-2 but I'm not going to call it a success just because it made a decent amount of money and I liked it. It, along with XIII and XIII:LR, has damaged the FF series reputation, and that's the opposite of successful when you're making a franchise. As I said, money + good reputation + fan support = success. Money alone does not make something successful, not when it's in a big franchise (got sales in the first place on the previous instalments reputation) and has potentially lost the company future sales (and current sales considering the 85% drop).

They are a direct sequels/prequels!! What are you talking about? I could give you an exact games that are spin-offs FF Tactics, FF Crystal Chronicles, Kingdom Hearts. And in the case of XII RW (even though i haven't played XII either) i am still confuse on why did the developers put this game as a spin-off instead of a sequel (when the events happened 2 years after the events in XII)? Either way i found this site and this might answers the confusion on why XII RW is a spin off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Final_Fantasy_XII:_Revenant_Wings, and its not because its in a different platform.

That's what im pointing out!!!It comes down to personal opinion....almost every FF series are either great or bad in the eyes of every gamer....so people who's bit***ng about FFXIII and to say FF in general has gone down putting the blame on a certain game is an overstatement simply because others don't like it but what about the people who did like it? same thing can be said to other FF titles (when i played FF X-2 i never liked it but do i say FF franchise is going down? no way,,,or i didn't like FFVIII and i've come up to the conclusion that FF franchise is going downhill? Hell no!!! ). This is where i brought up sales in general to point out if the games is a success or a flop.

Its just in my observation people who keeps saying FF has gone down putting the blame on FF XII and FF XIII are more like people who are stuck in the past that likes classic FF games. i myself love the classic FF titles but i don't go far on to say that FF series is going down!!

 

[Sheechiibii]

They are a direct sequels/prequels!! What are you talking about? I could give you an exact games that are spin-offs FF Tactics, FF Crystal Chronicles, Kingdom Hearts. And in the case of XII RW (even though i haven't played XII either) i am still confuse on why did the developers put this game as a spin-off instead of a sequel (when the events happened 2 years after the events in XII)? Either way i found this site and this might answers the confusion on why XII RW is a spin off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Final_Fantasy_XII:_Revenant_Wings, and its not because its in a different platform.

That's what im pointing out!!!It comes down to personal opinion....almost every FF series are either great or bad in the eyes of every gamer....so people who's bit***ng about FFXIII and to say FF in general has gone down putting the blame on a certain game is an overstatement simply because others don't like it but what about the people who did like it? same thing can be said to other FF titles (when i played FF X-2 i never liked it but do i say FF franchise is going down? no way,,,or i didn't like FFVIII and i've come up to the conclusion that FF franchise is going downhill? Hell no!!! ). This is where i brought up sales in general to point out if the games is a success or a flop.

Its just in my observation people who keeps saying FF has gone down putting the blame on FF XII and FF XIII are more like people who are stuck in the past that likes classic FF games. i myself love the classic FF titles but i don't go far on to say that FF series is going down!!

A sequel is a main Final Fantasy title that continues the same story present in the previous title. None of the Final Fantasy VII spin-offs meet that criteria because none of them are main titles, and none of them follow the same storyline. The article you linked me to describes why Revenant wings is a spin-off and the same reasons given apply to CC, AC and DoC.

You mean the people who did like it...like me? If the majority of the people who play a game dislike that game, then that game is not a success. Especially not if it makes a majority of fans question the series as a whole and be wary of buying the next instalment in the series. Just like if a minority of fans dislike a game, that doesn't make the game unsuccessful. It's what the majority is pleased with, it's what will make most of the fans come back again, pay money for again. If FFXIII was a stand alone game unconnected to any franchise then yes, making all that money would be successful, because the money for that single game would be all it is about. When a series depends on reputation however, and an instalment damages that, then I don't think it's a success.

I very much agree with you about people who are saying FF has gone downhill. I think it's far too early to say that when really the only badly received game so far has been FFXIII and it's sequels. If we get another 3 games that are just as badly recieved, then maybe it will be a fair criticism but I do agree that most of those people saying it has gone downhill and putting entirely too much weight on FFXIII.

 

[Battlecry]

A sequel is a main Final Fantasy title that continues the same story present in the previous title. None of the Final Fantasy VII spin-offs meet that criteria because none of them are main titles, and none of them follow the same storyline. The article you linked me to describes why Revenant wings is a spin-off and the same reasons given apply to CC, AC and DoC.

You mean the people who did like it...like me? If the majority of the people who play a game dislike that game, then that game is not a success. Especially not if it makes a majority of fans question the series as a whole and be wary of buying the next instalment in the series. Just like if a minority of fans dislike a game, that doesn't make the game unsuccessful. It's what the majority is pleased with, it's what will make most of the fans come back again, pay money for again. If FFXIII was a stand alone game unconnected to any franchise then yes, making all that money would be successful, because the money for that single game would be all it is about. When a series depends on reputation however, and an instalment damages that, then I don't think it's a success.

I very much agree with you about people who are saying FF has gone downhill. I think it's far too early to say that when really the only badly received game so far has been FFXIII and it's sequels. If we get another 3 games that are just as badly recieved, then maybe it will be a fair criticism but I do agree that most of those people saying it has gone downhill and putting entirely too much weight on FFXIII.

Here is a better standing of what is a sequel means FFVII is the original, after the events of FFVII to where CLoud and party stops Sephiroth from destroying the world, then came FFVII Advent Children a whole new different story that tells on what had happened after the events of the original FF VII which is called a sequel from it. Then came FF VII Dirge of Cerberus which occured after the events on Advent Children. By this you can clearly see that it continues the story of the original FF VII that tells a whole new different story not the same story like what you are thinking.

Sequel? What happened before the start of FFVII? This is where Crisis Core was made a direct prequel of FFVII which literally tells a whole new story before the events of FFVII occured.

Then let me ask you this!!! What is the reason on why you think you are displeased with game FFXIII and why it was unsuccesful from your point of view if you??Is it about the story? characters? gameplay?

That is the point of my post which i made directly to this whole thread!!!

 

[Sheechiibii]

Here is a better standing of what is a sequel means FFVII is the original, after the events of FFVII to where CLoud and party stops Sephiroth from destroying the world, then came FFVII Advent Children a whole new different story that tells on what had happened after the events of the original FF VII which is called a sequel from it. Then came FF VII Dirge of Cerberus which occured after the events on Advent Children. By this you can clearly see that it continues the story of the original FF VII that tells a whole new different story not the same story like what you are thinking.

Sequel? What happened before the start of FFVII? This is where Crisis Core was made a direct prequel of FFVII which literally tells a whole new story before the events of FFVII occured.

Then let me ask you this!!! What is the reason on why you think you are displeased with game FFXIII and why it was unsuccesful from your point of view if you??Is it about the story? characters? gameplay?

That is the point of my post which i made directly to this whole thread!!!

Exactly. These are whole new stories, just set in the same world and featuring some of the same characters. That's not a direct sequel, that's a spin-off. For example, in FFX-2 the story continues directly from X because the entire story is based on Yuna trying to save Tidus, which directly follows on from the story in X. I know you haven't played the XIII games so I won't spoil those but in the same way as X and X-2 the stories are linked. They're not just set in the same world with some of the same characters, they continue on the same story.

I don't think XIII was successful because most of the people who bought it were displeased with it, regretted buying it, and it put doubt in people's minds about continuing to buy from the FF series. My opinion of it not being successful has nothing to do with whether I think it is a good game or not. For example, the Call of Duty franchise is obviously successful, the majority of fans are consistently pleased with them, consistently buying them, and consistently wanting more of them. I hate the Call of Duty games but that is not the point. Same with FFXIII, my opinions on it are irrelevant to whether or not it's successful.

Like I said when I first replied to you, I agreed with almost everything you said. The only thing I didn't agree with was your claim that XIII was a success because of its sales. I'm not saying anything was wrong your your points about some people being stuck in the past, that it was good for Square to try something new with XIII etc, I simply disagree about what constitutes a successful game in a series. I think it needs more than just sales if it's a game in a series that relies on reputation.

 

[Battlecry]

Exactly. These are whole new stories, just set in the same world and featuring some of the same characters. That's not a direct sequel, that's a spin-off. For example, in FFX-2 the story continues directly from X because the entire story is based on Yuna trying to save Tidus, which directly follows on from the story in X. I know you haven't played the XIII games so I won't spoil those but in the same way as X and X-2 the stories are linked. They're not just set in the same world with some of the same characters, they continue on the same story.

I don't think XIII was successful because most of the people who bought it were displeased with it, regretted buying it, and it put doubt in people's minds about continuing to buy from the FF series. My opinion of it not being successful has nothing to do with whether I think it is a good game or not. For example, the Call of Duty franchise is obviously successful, the majority of fans are consistently pleased with them, consistently buying them, and consistently wanting more of them. I hate the Call of Duty games but that is not the point. Same with FFXIII, my opinions on it are irrelevant to whether or not it's successful.

Like I said when I first replied to you, I agreed with almost everything you said. The only thing I didn't agree with was your claim that XIII was a success because of its sales. I'm not saying anything was wrong your your points about some people being stuck in the past, that it was good for Square to try something new with XIII etc, I simply disagree about what constitutes a successful game in a series. I think it needs more than just sales if it's a game in a series that relies on reputation.

I admit calling DoB a direct sequel is wrong it is a distant sequel to the original FFVII, It seems that we are not on the same page when talking about sequels/prequels. I am saying that in a narrative/story stand point it doesn't matter if Zack is the main character in CC due to the fact that the main story of CC (In a narrative sequence) will lead you to the events of FF VII and that is why it is a direct prequel from the original game. As i explain further why CC is what you also called a spin off because it was part of the huge (Zack is the main character which obviously who plays a minor role from the original game and thus the whole CC revolves much around him same thing can be said on FFX-2 which evolves around Yuna technically X-2 is also a spin-off of the original X game) next is CC is part of the huge story of FFVII as a whole (CC, DoB, Before Crisis, Final Fantasy Last Order & FF 7 AC) but each of these were all a sequel from the original FF VII in a narrative/story standpoint.

Yeah i can see that!!But what is the exact thing on why people are displeased on the game? And there can only be something within the game and it revolves around this categories (Story, Plot, Gameplay Mechanics, Battle System, Characters, World Building). Call of Duty is hardcore gaming and literally majority of the Hardcore gamers would like that.