Final Fantasy XIV: Stop whining.

[Cramshad]

Hi, guys. I'm new here, but I've been a pretty loyal fan to Square for a while. Including FFXI. (OH NO! ...Shut up.)

So. I saw this thread while googling FFXVI... And I'm going to give you a piece of my mind.

Complaint #1: You MMORPG players already have FFXI! Just add expansions!
Answer: Yeah, and you guys already have THE REST OF THE SERIES. We only have two. Stop complaining. Not to mention, FFXI's graphics, engine and pretty much everything is extremely outdated, so dont say "just expand on it". Not to mention, Square has expanded the hell out of it already, and it's pretty much like beating a dead horse.

Complaint #2: OH MY GAWD THEY CHARGE LIKE 20-30 DOLLARS A MONTH TO PLAY ONLINE!
Answer: No, not really. At MAXIMUM they charge 12 per month. You're being ridiculous saying that. How do you expect them to maintain the servers? Yeah, Square makes massive profit from games... but a lot of that goes into development for other projects, and keeping up the online servers for heathens like me to enjoy my FF MMO's.

Complaint #3: They shouldn't number FFXI and FFXVI! They arent Final Fantasy!
Answer: They may not be "chronological", however, they are Final Fantasy. If you ever played FFXI, you will know they talk a shit ton about the crystal war. Not to mention, it has ALL the elements of a regular Final Fantasy game...Chocobos, Air Ships, Summons, Slow-paced running...and, all the jobs ever in the series. Including Blue Mage. If anything, Crystal Chronicals shouldn't be Final Fantasy at all. It's way more far-fetched.

Complaint #4: Everyone you meet on MMO's are mean and stupid.
Answer:No. Just.... No.Chances are, you've probably never played a MMO seriously before if you're saying this. I've met some of the best people ever from playing FFXI. Stop jumping to conclusions.Yeah, we have our fair share of idiots... But that's how real life is, also. I meet them every day at my job. It's unavoidable.

Complaint #5: FFXI=Fail.
Answer: Obviously you've never played the game, and have seen how massively popular it is. What a shame.

Complaint #6: 90% of the reason I play FF is because of the gripping story and the character development. In my experience with MMORPGs they lack both of these and instead focus more on leveling up and weapons.
Answer: ...You haven't played very many good MMO's, have you? Like I stated above, FFXI had an immersive plot.... mainly focusing on the Crystal War and many things about the past. You can't just assume FFXVI will lack all of this. And, um. Hello? The entire Final Fanasy series is a grindfest that focuses on weapons, smartie.

You guys shouldn't knock so hard on the online FF's without trying it. Most of the opinions on that thread were made by people who have NEVER touched an online game... and I can speak from experience, FFXI was one of the best Final Fantasies I had ever played. What's better than being with a whole crapload of your friends while battling Final Fantasy monsters and riding chocobos? Nothing. And don't whine to me about fees. Servers take a ton of cash to run, so I understand why they have to charge a subscription fee.


I'll add more later when I'm not so tired.

FLAME ON!

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

Complaint #1: You MMORPG players already have FFXI! Just add expansions!
Answer: Yeah, and you guys already have THE REST OF THE SERIES. We only have two. Stop complaining. Not to mention, FFXI's graphics, engine and pretty much everything is extremely outdated, so dont say "just expand on it". Not to mention, Square has expanded the hell out of it already, and it's pretty much like beating a dead horse.

Yeah but; main series > online series tbh.

Complaint #2: OH MY GAWD THEY CHARGE LIKE 20-30 DOLLARS A MONTH TO PLAY ONLINE!
Answer: No, not really. At MAXIMUM they charge 12 per month. You're being ridiculous saying that. How do you expect them to maintain the servers? Yeah, Square makes massive profit from games... but a lot of that goes into development for other projects, and keeping up the online servers for heathens like me to enjoy my FF MMO's.

That's 12$ too much tbqh, I don't expect to pay £30-£40 for a game only to have to pay an extra £6-£12 a month just to play it, tbqh, during the current economic crisis, the worst thing SE could have done is to make a game that requires subscription fees. Some people just can't afford to pay subscription fees so why should they lose out? Personally speaking, I could afford it I just don't want to ripped off around £50-£100 a month kthnx.

Complaint #3: They shouldn't number FFXI and FFXVI! They arent Final Fantasy!
Answer: They may not be "chronological", however, they are Final Fantasy. If you ever played FFXI, you will know they talk a shit ton about the crystal war. Not to mention, it has ALL the elements of a regular Final Fantasy game...Chocobos, Air Ships, Summons, Slow-paced running...and, all the jobs ever in the series. Including Blue Mage. If anything, Crystal Chronicals shouldn't be Final Fantasy at all. It's way more far-fetched.

No one claims they shouldn't be part of Final Fantasy, just not in the main series. Crystal Chronicles should be part of Final Fantasy, however, it's an entire series of its own, hence the "Crystal Chronicles" at the start of all its games. Why call it FFXI or FFXIV, why not just call it FFOnline? It's nothing like the rest of the games in the "main" series thus shouldn't be classed as it.

Complaint #4: Everyone you meet on MMO's are mean and stupid.
Answer:No. Just.... No.Chances are, you've probably never played a MMO seriously before if you're saying this. I've met some of the best people ever from playing FFXI. Stop jumping to conclusions.Yeah, we have our fair share of idiots... But that's how real life is, also. I meet them every day at my job. It's unavoidable.

I've yet to see people complain about FFXI due to the people who play it.

Complaint #5: FFXI=Fail.
Answer: Obviously you've never played the game, and have seen how massively popular it is. What a shame.

It is probably a decent game, just not part of the main series.

Complaint #6: 90% of the reason I play FF is because of the gripping story and the character development. In my experience with MMORPGs they lack both of these and instead focus more on leveling up and weapons.
Answer: ...You haven't played very many good MMO's, have you? Like I stated above, FFXI had an immersive plot.... mainly focusing on the Crystal War and many things about the past. You can't just assume FFXVI will lack all of this. And, um. Hello? The entire Final Fanasy series is a grindfest that focuses on weapons, smartie.

You guys shouldn't knock so hard on the online FF's without trying it. Most of the opinions on that thread were made by people who have NEVER touched an online game... and I can speak from experience, FFXI was one of the best Final Fantasies I had ever played. What's better than being with a whole crapload of your friends while battling Final Fantasy monsters and riding chocobos? Nothing. And don't whine to me about fees. Servers take a ton of cash to run, so I understand why they have to charge a subscription fee.

How do you know people in that thread haven't played MMORPGs? You're presuming, which isn't a good thing to do in a rant. And tbh, no I haven't played FFXI for the record, I just very much doubt it reaches the standards of FFIX, FFX etc. In story or character development.

Ktbhxbai.

 

[Donald Trump]

Hi, guys. I'm new here, but I've been a pretty loyal fan to Square for a while. Including FFXI. (OH NO! ...Shut up.)

So. I saw this thread while googling FFXVI... And I'm going to give you a piece of my mind.

Complaint #1: You MMORPG players already have FFXI! Just add expansions!
Answer: Yeah, and you guys already have THE REST OF THE SERIES. We only have two. Stop complaining. Not to mention, FFXI's graphics, engine and pretty much everything is extremely outdated, so dont say "just expand on it". Not to mention, Square has expanded the hell out of it already, and it's pretty much like beating a dead horse.

How is this relevant?
It's not. There are more people who want a 'normal' FF game rather than an online game.

Complaint #2: OH MY GAWD THEY CHARGE LIKE 20-30 DOLLARS A MONTH TO PLAY ONLINE!
Answer: No, not really. At MAXIMUM they charge 12 per month. You're being ridiculous saying that. How do you expect them to maintain the servers? Yeah, Square makes massive profit from games... but a lot of that goes into development for other projects, and keeping up the online servers for heathens like me to enjoy my FF MMO's

Even at $12 per month, after ten months that's the cost of the game again, just to play it. If they make massive profits then they should be able to afford to pay for the servers themselves. It's not as if they spend tonnes on R&D, they just stick some character in a spin off and rake in the profits.

Complaint #3: They shouldn't number FFXI and FFXVI! They arent Final Fantasy!
Answer: They may not be "chronological", however, they are Final Fantasy. If you ever played FFXI, you will know they talk a shit ton about the crystal war. Not to mention, it has ALL the elements of a regular Final Fantasy game...Chocobos, Air Ships, Summons, Slow-paced running...and, all the jobs ever in the series. Including Blue Mage. If anything, Crystal Chronicals shouldn't be Final Fantasy at all. It's way more far-fetched

Are your complaints in any order? CC isn't numbered, so why compare it to FFXI? Online games aren't part of the series they're a spin off. If it was called FFOnline rather than FFXI would it impact on your enjoyment of the game? No, so again another irrelevant point.

Complaint #4: Everyone you meet on MMO's are mean and stupid.
Answer:No. Just.... No.Chances are, you've probably never played a MMO seriously before if you're saying this. I've met some of the best people ever from playing FFXI. Stop jumping to conclusions.Yeah, we have our fair share of idiots... But that's how real life is, also. I meet them every day at my job. It's unavoidable.

And to prove it you go onto a forum and start complaining?
I don't know anyone who has said that people who play MMOs are asshats, so another point with no relevance.

Complaint #5: FFXI=Fail.
Answer: Obviously you've never played the game, and have seen how massively popular it is. What a shame.

I haven't. I don't go around making generalisations about things I don't know much about.

Complaint #6: 90% of the reason I play FF is because of the gripping story and the character development. In my experience with MMORPGs they lack both of these and instead focus more on leveling up and weapons.
Answer: ...You haven't played very many good MMO's, have you? Like I stated above, FFXI had an immersive plot.... mainly focusing on the Crystal War and many things about the past. You can't just assume FFXVI will lack all of this. And, um. Hello? The entire Final Fanasy series is a grindfest that focuses on weapons, smartie.

Why are you making clever and oh so witty comebacks to your own comments, it's not hugely impressive. In your opinion FFXI has a gripping immersive plot. Again your opinion is only relevant to you, I haven't played FFXI, but FFXII's plot was dire. Because of that I'm not optomistic about FFXIII or FFXIV.

 

[Pokeslob]

whatever it is what it is, plus XIII is not even out yet why do people hoenstly care that XIV is an mmo, XIII should keep 'em busy 'till XV

plus they plan on having an "epic story" to XIV anyway, I think it looks pretty kick ass myself

 

[Sugosuke]

If XIV is atleast as good as XI is, then I'm sold.
I've been playing XI since beta, and I still log in almost daily.
XI has a much better plot than any of the other PS1/PS2 FFs imo.

 

[.Tifa]

Been complaining because just really dislike what is happening with FF14 so far.
Think it's okay to complain. To express our emotions and say how we are feeling about something. Sometimes those feelings can be negative. Final Fantasy games can split up fans and views with different tastebuds and opinions.

But have been feeling pretty angry/ pissed off over FF14 because the theme is following from FF11 and FF12 theme. The FF12 theme isn't bad, and it was really nice for a change.
But now just sick of it. Want to go to back to the old days of Final Fantasy games where the storyline had a more anime or manga kind of sense and not Lord of the Rings kind of style. You know where the main character had purple or green hair and came from the moon or was half alien and the main Villian could walk through flames or was a witch from the future and could control people's minds.

Also agree with Larxene. Some people just can't afford to spend heaps of money playing a online game. Some people can't afford a HOUSE let alone a online FF game !

But just going to ignore FF14 and when it comes out will be busy happy playing Birth By Sleep and Dissida and will be busy thinking about older character's finally speaking and enjoying beating up Lucifer in the Cinderella world rather than a Crystal War which you could probably predict the ending too. [ World Peace ?]

 

[saajuk]

Hi, guys. I'm new here, but I've been a pretty loyal fan to Square for a while. Including FFXI. (OH NO! ...Shut up.)

So. I saw this thread while googling FFXVI... And I'm going to give you a piece of my mind.

Complaint #1: You MMORPG players already have FFXI! Just add expansions!
Answer: Yeah, and you guys already have THE REST OF THE SERIES. We only have two. Stop complaining. Not to mention, FFXI's graphics, engine and pretty much everything is extremely outdated, so dont say "just expand on it". Not to mention, Square has expanded the hell out of it already, and it's pretty much like beating a dead horse.

Complaint #2: OH MY GAWD THEY CHARGE LIKE 20-30 DOLLARS A MONTH TO PLAY ONLINE!
Answer: No, not really. At MAXIMUM they charge 12 per month. You're being ridiculous saying that. How do you expect them to maintain the servers? Yeah, Square makes massive profit from games... but a lot of that goes into development for other projects, and keeping up the online servers for heathens like me to enjoy my FF MMO's.

Complaint #3: They shouldn't number FFXI and FFXVI! They arent Final Fantasy!
Answer: They may not be "chronological", however, they are Final Fantasy. If you ever played FFXI, you will know they talk a shit ton about the crystal war. Not to mention, it has ALL the elements of a regular Final Fantasy game...Chocobos, Air Ships, Summons, Slow-paced running...and, all the jobs ever in the series. Including Blue Mage. If anything, Crystal Chronicals shouldn't be Final Fantasy at all. It's way more far-fetched.

Complaint #4: Everyone you meet on MMO's are mean and stupid.
Answer:No. Just.... No.Chances are, you've probably never played a MMO seriously before if you're saying this. I've met some of the best people ever from playing FFXI. Stop jumping to conclusions.Yeah, we have our fair share of idiots... But that's how real life is, also. I meet them every day at my job. It's unavoidable.

Complaint #5: FFXI=Fail.
Answer: Obviously you've never played the game, and have seen how massively popular it is. What a shame.

Complaint #6: 90% of the reason I play FF is because of the gripping story and the character development. In my experience with MMORPGs they lack both of these and instead focus more on leveling up and weapons.
Answer: ...You haven't played very many good MMO's, have you? Like I stated above, FFXI had an immersive plot.... mainly focusing on the Crystal War and many things about the past. You can't just assume FFXVI will lack all of this. And, um. Hello? The entire Final Fanasy series is a grindfest that focuses on weapons, smartie.

You guys shouldn't knock so hard on the online FF's without trying it. Most of the opinions on that thread were made by people who have NEVER touched an online game... and I can speak from experience, FFXI was one of the best Final Fantasies I had ever played. What's better than being with a whole crapload of your friends while battling Final Fantasy monsters and riding chocobos? Nothing. And don't whine to me about fees. Servers take a ton of cash to run, so I understand why they have to charge a subscription fee.


I'll add more later when I'm not so tired.

FLAME ON!

lol nice first post, and i see lots of people complain over getting an MMO instead of a single player FF game based on the fact of XI suking hard core (from wat I hear).

I agree, they should charge people to play a MMORPG like this (if its good) so they can keep throwing in new patches and keep everything fresh and unboring.

But imo, i dont see why people would choose a second rate game like XI over WoW... doesnt make any sense.

Heres hoping though FF XIV will dominate, i could use a break from WoW

 

[Sugosuke]

lol nice first post, and i see lots of people complain over getting an MMO instead of a single player FF game based on the fact of XI suking hard core (from wat I hear).

I agree, they should charge people to play a MMORPG like this (if its good) so they can keep throwing in new patches and keep everything fresh and unboring.

But imo, i dont see why people would choose a second rate game like XI over WoW... doesnt make any sense.

Heres hoping though FF XIV will dominate, i could use a break from WoW

Theres a reason FFXI is still around after all these years and has outlived so many MMOs that came after it. Maybe you should actually try it before deciding it "suks hard core", based only on "wat you heard".

 

[Sir Kenneth]

Complaint #5: FFXI=Fail.
Answer: Obviously you've never played the game, and have seen how massively popular it is. What a shame.

As a former Final Fantasy XI player I agree with all your sentiments, save one: Final Fantasy XI IS fail The account management and billing was truly dreadful before the character reactivation service, and still leaves a lot to be desired compared to other MMO's. Also levelling is a bitch, and the endgame is also rather lacking in my opinion. Saying that FFXI is massively popular is just wrong. The game has a nice core fan base yes, but massively popular? That phrase probably goes better with a game like WoW.

Most of everything I agree with though. Especially concerning Final Fantasy fans in general being a bit MMO-phobic and making too big a deal out of subscription fees. It's such a modest amount every month, and most people probably spend way more on fast food, phone bills, and stuff like that every month.

 

[saajuk]

Theres a reason FFXI is still around after all these years and has outlived so many MMOs that came after it. Maybe you should actually try it before deciding it "suks hard core", based only on "wat you heard".

Believe me i wanted to play XI but i just didnt find any positive reviews for it. Years ago when i searched for blogs/reviews over which is the better MMORPG XI or WoW, most players whom played both games choose WoW over XI by a land slide. So i just went with the better game =p even if i did try out XI id probly just end up goin back to WoW like all the others minus 12 bucks.

 

[Sugosuke]

Believe me i wanted to play XI but i just didnt find any positive reviews for it. Years ago when i searched for blogs/reviews over which is the better MMORPG XI or WoW, most players whom played both games choose WoW over XI by a land slide. So i just went with the better game =p even if i did try out XI id probly just end up goin back to WoW like all the others minus 12 bucks.

The reason FFXI is still around is because it isnt at all like WoW, all the WoW clones that have came out recently have failed, because you cant beat WoW at being WoW. A lot of FFXI players rushed to WoW when it came out and were back to XI within a couple of months.

The only thing the two games really have in common is that they're MMOs. I hate to say its "Apples and Oranges", but it is. Chances are, if you think WoW is amazing... you'll probably hate FFXI and vice versa.

I have a feeling XIV will bridge the gap some between the two though, but only time will tell.

 

[Takamasa]

Why call it FFXI or FFXIV, why not just call it FFOnline? It's nothing like the rest of the games in the "main" series thus shouldn't be classed as it.

Hmmm...let's analyze this for a second. You mean b/c its online its totally diff. from all the other Final Fantasies?Or you mean it doesnt have a story line? It doesnt have numerous amounts of gear that can be upgraded? Charecters that fight with during the game? Chocobos? You arent the hero? Oh wait you "have" to level in order to progress in the game? Getting xp is the same as wondering through a zone trying to get to the next and if you run away from every agro and refuse to lvl in an offline rpg youll most likely get pwned by the next boss you face. I'm wondering whats diff.?I got three, you can be joined by others(a plus) you have to sometime deal w/ assholes(sacrifice of being able to play the worlds greatest franchinse w/ real people) and its online, oops already mentioned that one.

To me tbqh its a Final Fantasy game. Kthx

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

Hmmm...let's analyze this for a second. You mean b/c its online its totally diff. from all the other Final Fantasies

Well considering it's online then, yes.

Or you mean it doesnt have a story line? It doesnt have numerous amounts of gear that can be upgraded? Charecters that fight with during the game? Chocobos? You arent the hero?

I never said it didn't, but don't even try to tell me the storyline or characters are as good as the likes of IX, X, VII etc because I'll choke on the toast I'm eating. I'd be also very surprised if you characters didn't fight during the game.

Oh wait you "have" to level in order to progress in the game? Getting xp is the same as wondering through a zone trying to get to the next and if you run away from every agro and refuse to lvl in an offline rpg youll most likely get pwned by the next boss you face.

That's not a trademark of a Final Fantasy game, it's a trade of the entire RPG world. So that hasn't helped your case.

I'm wondering whats diff.?I got three, you can be joined by others(a plus) you have to sometime deal w/ assholes(sacrifice of being able to play the worlds greatest franchinse w/ real people) and its online, oops already mentioned that one.

You're arguing against your own case xD

To me tbqh its a Final Fantasy game. Kthx

I never said it wasn't, in fact I'm pretty sure I said it was. I said it wasn't part of the main series kthnx.

 

[Shu]

Complaint #2: OH MY GAWD THEY CHARGE LIKE 20-30 DOLLARS A MONTH TO PLAY ONLINE!
Answer: No, not really. At MAXIMUM they charge 12 per month. You're being ridiculous saying that. How do you expect them to maintain the servers? Yeah, Square makes massive profit from games... but a lot of that goes into development for other projects, and keeping up the online servers for heathens like me to enjoy my FF MMO's.

Nope 15 dollars is the most and the charges will definitely be going up in the future. It is a proven fact, companies will generally submit to higher rates because of higher interactivity. When they know they can put their money where their mouth is they generally charge more per month.

To me, I'm looking forward to this game. I'll pay as high as 17.00 bucks a month to be honest if it actually a good game in general. World of Warcraft was good at one point, but its community suffered a huge blow when Burning Crusade was released. Why? because the interactivity was crushed. Instead of 40 man raids, it was 20 man raids. Instead of working for months to years of getting good gear through PvE effort, you could just go farm it in Burning Crusade.

Same went for FFXI. The only reason this game ever fell off was because of lack of interactivity. You had to be level 75 to fully appreciate the game to be honest. If you tried to join even 3 years after the release it was a hard to get integrated because of the downgrade in graphics. Most people by then had like 2 lvl 75s. So you were either getting ran through by powerlvlers, in which you generally wouldn't learn how to play your job very well because of it - or you were crapping out prior to lvl 20. It wasn't until the level sync system came along, but by then it was way to late. Granted people are still playing this game, and there are people who love it to no end, but the community used to be 2 times the size if not more.

So I hope for SE's sake they center around community rather than trying to make this game as addictive as possible.

 

[Coloradocough]

lol nice first post, and i see lots of people complain over getting an MMO instead of a single player FF game based on the fact of XI suking hard core (from wat I hear).

I agree, they should charge people to play a MMORPG like this (if its good) so they can keep throwing in new patches and keep everything fresh and unboring.

But imo, i dont see why people would choose a second rate game like XI over WoW... doesnt make any sense.

Heres hoping though FF XIV will dominate, i could use a break from WoW

LOL a second rate game....... FFXI IMHO is the best MMO out there. I played for 3 years, I got bored of wow before I got to level 50 with 7 days of gameplay.

One mans garbage is another mans treasure. But hey everyone is different and that's a good thing.

 

[Jacqui]

RE the person who mentioned paying more for phone bills than the subscription fees- forgive me, but in my house you have to pay the phone bill to get the internet, and then you have to pay a subscription to play FFXI on top of that. So your argument isn't valid there...because whether you play FFXI or not, you still have to pay your phone bill if you want your internet...

 

[Sir Kenneth]

RE the person who mentioned paying more for phone bills than the subscription fees- forgive me, but in my house you have to pay the phone bill to get the internet, and then you have to pay a subscription to play FFXI on top of that. So your argument isn't valid there...because whether you play FFXI or not, you still have to pay your phone bill if you want your internet...

I was comparing subscription fees to something that most people pay every month without even blinking. If it makes you feel better about it, you can replace the word "phone bill" with something else you spend a modest amount on every month. The point still stands though: People spend lots of money here and there every month, paying for small conveniences like fastfood, movie tickets, phone bills, etc, etc, and a monthly subscription fee isn't any different from that and in most cases will probably fit into your budget

 

[Sugosuke]

RE the person who mentioned paying more for phone bills than the subscription fees- forgive me, but in my house you have to pay the phone bill to get the internet, and then you have to pay a subscription to play FFXI on top of that. So your argument isn't valid there...because whether you play FFXI or not, you still have to pay your phone bill if you want your internet...

You can save just 50cents a day and have enough to pay FFXI's subscription fee.

 

[ffussr]

Final Fantasy XIV

Complaint #2: OH MY GAWD THEY CHARGE LIKE 20-30 DOLLARS A MONTH TO PLAY ONLINE!
Answer: No, not really. At MAXIMUM they charge 12 per month. You're being ridiculous saying that. How do you expect them to maintain the servers? Yeah, Square makes massive profit from games... but a lot of that goes into development for other projects, and keeping up the online servers for heathens like me to enjoy my FF MMO's.

There are rumors floating about that FF14 might bee fee to play, but as you said, they need to maintain the server etc., 9.90/month would be the sweet spot

Complaint #5: FFXI=Fail.
Answer: Obviously you've never played the game, and have seen how massively popular it is. What a shame.

I played it a lot, but it's pretty meh, but I'm sure most players know what I'm talking about. Luckily Square will fix most of the issue since they are listening to us

 

[SvenCalBayan]

I'm a bit dissapointed by FFXIV. To me, it looks like an upgraded FFXI... with better graphics (obviously) and perhaps... different gameplay.

I was hoping that for their next venture online, they would go for a more futuristic sci-fi look. Esthar of FFVIII, Midgar of FFVII, Cocoon of FFXIII... imagine being in a world with cities like that, but ONLINE !

Futuristic weapons (Gun-Blade, Laser Sword, Buster Sword, Rifles, Laser Rifles, etc...) mixed with ether magic (yeah I know, ether is more like Xenosaga).

Imagine the concept of FFVIII (but without it's gameplay) in an ONLINE world. You can choose to be a SeeD mercenary for a specific Garden, an Esthar or Galbadian soldier... or a freelance mercenary. I could elaborate more, but it would take me pages.