Heaven, False Sense of Humility?

[AerithG]

Considering God and people saying He's not good if he creates people who are going to Hell...

He did not make us to just have us pick a card and we have our destination to luck of the draw. That's absolutely ridiculous. We have free will, obviously. If you would read my posts fully you would know that I've explained this. There's either free will or no free will, there is no partial free will. If we had no free will, there would be no point of making us, as we would be puppets for God's amusement. With us having free will, we choose our own destination through our actions and belief. God isn't to blame for our actions, we are. If he were to tell us, "Hey, buddy...you shouldn't do that." or if he forced you to do something else, then we wouldn't have free will anymore. We would be controlled.

Also, Nathan Drake

Thank you for posting those scriptures. I've never thought faith alone gets you to Heaven. Never have, never will. Being a person of faith, who is saved by the grace of God, is naturally going to want to do good deeds towards their fellow man, as it is what we are expected to do and should want to do, because the Holy Spirit will be acting within us.

 

[Stoic Hero]

Well according to the bible

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24

And that is not up to you to interpret

"no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:16-20

This is the way it is laid down in the bible, and nothing you say will change that as

"the Scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35 b

What I said is not in disagreement with these scriptures. I didn't say man was saved by faith alone. I said that it's not about good works. YES, when you have faith, good works will follow. But you cannot have the latter without the former, and that was the point I was trying to get across. Faith without works is dead, but works without faith is absolute vanity. You always need faith before the works can be accounted as righteous.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

thats a bit of a cop out, because atheists arent believers at all. they are (not all of course, but the majority) not killing, raping, stealing etc because they have they have an innate sense of right and wrong and not because god said its not ok to do these things.

if i can go to heaven just for refraining from murder, rape and theft then i think you (and every other religious person) are short changing yourself. if its enough to just be "good" then why bother with, what seems to me, a load of illogical pish?

Based on the premise that heaven and hell are consequences for a persons actions, the choices and decisions people make are most important.

Remember, the christian representation of God is one of justice and benevolence. Would a benevolent God send an atheist that was moral & good person to hell? Probably not.

The part that trips people up involves exclusivity.

Its said that belief in christianity is the only way to get to heaven. BUT, the fine print says: 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life...'

These may be considered figurative and metaphorical terms, not literal ones.

How a person chooses to interpret them makes a world of difference.

I think a good deal of organized religion is illogical pish. Its man, and the egos of men who demand others bow down and worship what they believe in.

People tend to be vain, narcissistic, and egotistical. Fanboys often demand others bow down and worship, what they worship.

Its no different with religion.

People may assume a God would care about the vain, hero worshipppy, things they care about. I don't think it works that way...

That makes absolutely no sense, claiming that because atheists have the same morals then they are following Christian morals. That's the same as saying, you use words, Christians use words, so you are using Christian words

Its not that vague nor generalized.

If your view of a moral atheist coincides with the christian view of morality there may well be correlation.

Its not necessarily justified to downplay possible connections in favor of vague & ambiguous trivialization.

The truly saved do good because it is the right thing to do, and they believe their goodness comes from God. Richard B Riddick atheists, by definition, do not believe in God. Therefore, they are doing good works for themselves or someone else and they do not believe that their goodness comes from God, so they cannot be saved. Like the Pharisees, they may do a lot of good works and be very powerful and loved in the community, but they don't love God and that will be to their detriment.

When you said is strongly dependent upon definitions.

If an atheist loves goodness, love, morality, positivity, justice - etcetera.

And if God is defined as: goodness, love, morality, positivity, justice - etcetera.

The atheist is loving God even if they may be against the historical concept of a christian God.

The church might claim to have a monopoly on God(goodness, love, morality, positivity, justice - etecetera) & that atheists are doomed if they don't sign up.

But, I think that notion may be subject to a large number of figurative and metaphorical definitions that don't translate to a literal statement.

 

[Will Graham]

Considering God and people saying He's not good if he creates people who are going to Hell...

He did not make us to just have us pick a card and we have our destination to luck of the draw. That's absolutely ridiculous. We have free will, obviously. If you would read my posts fully you would know that I've explained this. There's either free will or no free will, there is no partial free will. If we had no free will, there would be no point of making us, as we would be puppets for God's amusement. With us having free will, we choose our own destination through our actions and belief. God isn't to blame for our actions, we are. If he were to tell us, "Hey, buddy...you shouldn't do that." or if he forced you to do something else, then we wouldn't have free will anymore. We would be controlled.

The point is this

God created us supposedly with free will, so we can choose to do whatever we want. However there is only one choice or path that leads to heaven, all others to hell. If we deviate from this path we are sent to hell, you see how that is not really free will at all? We are given the choice to think anything or believe anything, yet if we do not believe one thing in particular, we are consigned to perdition. That is not free will, regardless of how you dress it up.

What I said is not in disagreement with these scriptures. I didn't say man was saved by faith alone. I said that it's not about good works. YES, when you have faith, good works will follow. But you cannot have the latter without the former, and that was the point I was trying to get across. Faith without works is dead, but works without faith is absolute vanity. You always need faith before the works can be accounted as righteous.

So some people in sub-Saharan Africa who have probably never even heard of God or Jesus Christ, are condemned to hell. They did not learn about God, so hell for them. Or do they automatically accept his love if they are totally ignorant of him?

Also please tell me why, if God is omniscient, is he creating humans he knows will simply go straight to hell? He always knows what's going to happen, that these people will never suddenly start believing in him, if they did then they would prove God to not be omniscient.

Belle and Sebastian Even though God knows the future, he often allows things to play out because then, they really happened. Think about it. If I say I would die for you, but never do, did I really mean it? We'll never know. But if I actually did step in front of a bullet and die for you, there's no question that I would, indeed, die for you, because I did it. In the same way, there's no question of his unwavering faith to God, since he carried out what God asked him to do. God had to allow that to happen or else there would be no proof.

That is what you said the last time, so are you saying that God needs to prove to us that he is right? Or to himself? Your analogy implies that God thinks like a human

Also if all sins are weighed equally, what about the cardinal sins? Are you saying you have never felt a pang of envy, or a smidgen of lust? If you have, that is the same as murder and you are Hellbound

 

[Shu]

Considering God and people saying He's not good if he creates people who are going to Hell...

I don't think anyone ever said that. I think if that was referring to what I said, it was primarily said.. If people were created with free will, and we are of his image. God in fact is fallible as well. People auto assume he/her to think like a human, due to they try to rationalize this being to be something "human-like."

If this were true God is fallible just like you or I. It makes mistakes, it is in the same boat as us.. we are just on a set path of choice. Why would a higher being care what we choose or not? Why are we so bent out of shape with just Earth and it's humanity alone. We are so small compared to the rest of the damn universe, but we wish to think that everything was created for us. Just because we are the most advanced in adaptability and the Highest on the food chain, doesn't mean it was created for it. Nature could easily see to it, to screw us out of any type of survival.

There are things humans can not control, and that will always drive a short bamboo up someone's finger nails. Humans have the ability to get bent of shape on things that they can not control, and therefor claim that.. it must be god. Why else?

It's like this in relation, by folks being able to control who lives and who dies.. Abortion or Stem Cell Research.. it makes Christians question the very fabric of god. The dissolution of the Christian Church has always been there, but by putting Heaven in scriptures and constantly referring to the end all be all, if you choose one direction or another.. was the biggest flaw of the New and Old Testament.

It's basically putting cause and effect, but instead using it to condemn your actions if you choose to act sinful, constituted by men, who believe they spoke to god. Who we so proudly say.. Jesus was alive 2011 years ago, and we still try to justify the old book, by circular reasoning.

I was a "christian" too at one point, or so I thought until I actually read the bible. I also was a christian at one point, until I actually could see the nature in which people use this religion as negative. Praying for football games, praying for our troops to exact quick revenge, Praying for people to make it through a test.. The only thing Prayer should of ever been used for is to thank someone, not to get something in return.

Sometimes life is hard.. but instead of praying and getting down when your god doesn't help you, how about stop being selfish and trying to help out your fellow man. Christians are wayyyy to obsessed where people will go when they die.

It should not matter where I am going. The only thing I know is.. my ashes will be thrown into a coffee container and spread about somewhere in the Smoky's. (US eastern mountain range). Aside from that, I don't want to be remembered, I want to be respected when I die. We waist way too much time preaching, and talking in this damn country to even lift a finger. We are too obsessed with making our image look better, by giving charities and saying "Look what I did." Charity should be a humbled thing, nothing to gloat about. It should always be non profit.

There are two people that should never get paid as much as they do. Priest/Ministers (0 dollars) and Entertainers. Both speak way too much. Their actions outside their practice, usually speak way more volumes about themselves than how they perform. Pastors usually are entertainers, otherwise how do they expect to get folks to come to their church? How do you expect folks to make donations to their offering plates? Churches should never be circled around one man. It should only be about the community. There should never be one leader. Talking about real problems.. like.. how to make one relate to a non christian without having to say.. well at the end of the day.. if you don't believe in jesus.. you're going to hell.

 

[Tucker]

The reason why Hell is supposed to be such a horrible place is because it is a place with pure absence of God.

God puts the people who reject him and do bad things in Hell, because it's like they rejected him, had their chance, so now he's giving them what they always believed, a world without/away from God.

If someone rejects God/is Atheist but is also a good person (like many people in this site), I don't believe they go to Hell. Probably Purgatory. But I am an on and off Catholic so...

So if you are talking about God "punishing the people by putting them in Hell even though he is absolute goodness", or something along those lines, it's basically like God giving them what they've always wanted.

I know I didn't respond to Shu's post, but I am leaving now for dinner. Babye.

 

[Stoic Hero]

So some people in sub-Saharan Africa who have probably never even heard of God or Jesus Christ, are condemned to hell. They did not learn about God, so hell for them. Or do they automatically accept his love if they are totally ignorant of him?

Also please tell me why, if God is omniscient, is he creating humans he knows will simply go straight to hell? He always knows what's going to happen, that these people will never suddenly start believing in him, if they did then they would prove God to not be omniscient.

First, there must be belief, or faith. Then you must believe that God is, and, then, that he rewards men who diligently seek him. So all men everywhere are responsible to seek the God who is revealed in nature. Now, they may have no more light than that. But, if they, are obedient to it, that is enough to bring them through gradually dawning light to the knowledge of Christ. God will see to it that they have further light.

"...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; (Joel 2:32a NIV)"

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" (Romans 10:14-15 NIV)"

"But not all the Israelites responded to the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:16-17 NIV)"

He goes on, then:

"But I ask, did they not hear?bOf course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world." (Romans 10:18 NIV)"

So, St. Paul seems to also believe that the Christian message has reached "the ends of the world."

Also:

"The heavens are telling the glory of God;
and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.
Day to day pours forth speech
and night to night declares knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
their voice is not heard;
yet their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world. (Psalms 19:1-4a RSV)"

and:

"...what may be known about God is plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20 NIV)"

So, in conclusion, the message has reached quite a number of people. And the people it hasn't reached are still without excuse, because God's divine nature and eternal power are clearly seen by everyone. Simply look at the stars, or the ocean, or the intricacies of life, and you will surely see a unique and wonderful design.

As to your second question, he wants to give everyone a choice. Whether they will deny him or not is up to them. I know it's difficult to grasp a concept like that, and I'm not sure anyone but God understands it fully. But, that's God in general. Very mysterious, but he's promised he will reveal everything at the end time.

Also, to further provide evidence that I was not in disagreement with the scriptures in my prior post:

"...without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6 NIV)"

 

[Richard B Riddick]

Eh. I guess I'll try to give you a half decent reply to some of these...

Richard B Riddick atheists, by definition, do not believe in God. Therefore, they are doing good works for themselves or someone else and they do not believe that their goodness comes from God, so they cannot be saved. Like the Pharisees, they may do a lot of good works and be very powerful and loved in the community, but they don't love God and that will be to their detriment.

It looks to me as if you're making the same error atheists do, but your version is an inverted polar opposite.

Atheists commonly utilize a double standard in how they categorize religious demographics. They believe only atheists are capable of utilizing science or logic & that they have a monopoly on those things. They believe only religion can inspire suicide bombings and fanaticism and that atheists are exempt from those types of behavior(despite north korea using suicide squads and japanese kamikaze attacks in wwii having absolutely nothing to do with religious base). A good deal of their preconceptions are intertwined with prejudiced stereotypes and political revisionism.

In a sense, you're utilizing the same approach in saying religious people can love God, and everything God stands for in terms of morality, but atheists cannot. "Only religious individuals can do good selflessly & atheists must be motivated by self-interest."

We're all people. Atheists and religious people are not two separate species of human being despite atheists and religious demographics treating them as such.

If some atheists are motivated to do good due to their own self interests, undeniably some religious people are motivated by the same. Being religious, atheist or part of any specific demographic isn't a key requirement as no group or faction can claim a monopoly on facts, the truth, logic, science or morality.

The bible says the person who truly loves & believes in God follows his Word.

It doesn't matter if you're reasons for doing so are pure or imperfect. We're all fallible and imperfect. All that matters is a person does the right thing though they may be tempted to do otherwise.

If a person believes in God and religion, they believe doing good is worthwhile and a worthy cause. If a person doesn't believe, they won't view good or morality as being worth their time. That's the main deciding portion of religion and in determining who winds up in heaven and who in hell.

Whether a person claims to be categorized as an atheist or christian, I think, is extremely unimportant within the grand scheme of things. There are people who go to church regularly and claim religion who are the biggest & most immoral douchebags ever. And, maybe, there are atheists who are extremely moral people who actually do believe in God's cause. Even if indirectly.

Treating atheists and religious people as if they were two distinctly separate species with fundamental and intrinsic qualities exclusive to either demographic is a bit drastic, imo. We're all people, we may have different opinions and think differently about some things. But, the more I dealt with both religious people and atheists, the more I realized how identical and similar they were to each other.

You can see it in how atheists constantly complain about religious people shoving their beliefs down peoples throats. In a lot of cases, the same atheists who complain about it - do the same thing. The go and post 500 threads on a forum trying to force their views on others. They try to convince people that atheism is the only "reasonable" and "logical" choice. You can see it in how atheists who complain about religious people not being willing to have their beliefs questioned avoid having atheism be questioned - in defining their belief as a "lack of belief". Atheists don't deal with having their point of view questioned any better than religious people. Often, they're even worse.

In my eyes, religious folks and atheists are often exactly the same. They're stubborn, closed minded & don't want to think about things. They find priests or scientists to do all their thinking for them and rely on them to say what a person should think or believe. They don't deal with someone questioning their point of view or perspective very well. They love to pretend their demographic is superior to others, and that other demographics are inherently flawed. And, most of all, they love to pretend that anyone who has a different idea about things or a different mentality is 'plain stupid'.

If there are differences its that atheists are more political and sneaky about how they do things. Religious people are direct and will tell you you'll go to hell if you don't adhere to their views. Atheists are more indirect and sneaky and will say that if you don't adhere to their views you can't be logical or scientific. There are some minor differences and methodology in terms of the techniques they employ to achieve their ends.

But, for all intent and purpose, religious people and atheists are EXACTLY the same.

Its only vanity, hubris and reality disassociation that convinces people otherwise.

God is absolute goodness. There is no evil in him at all. The book of Job delves into this. Job was losing everything and his wife told him to "curse God and die." But Job responded "If we expect good from God, why should we not expect evil?" And later in the book, God spoke with Job. He let him know that, sometimes, evil things may happen to you that seem way beyond your control. But he has a plan, and those that believe will eventually be happy and righteous and everything secret will be revealed to them. God himself does not cause or send evil. That is Satan and his demons. People, too, do evil. But God is never evil. God does, however, test people, but He doesn't do anything out of spite. There's a lesson in everything, and through suffering we become stronger. There's a difference between temptation and tests. Satan does the former, God does the latter. The first is designed for you to fail, the latter is designed for you to succeed and grow strong.

It's not about punishment. He's not punishing you for disbelieving in him. He's just offered you a choice: Believe in him and join him in heaven, or go your own way. A lot of people choose the latter, which unfortunately leads to hell.

We were made to worship and glorify, yes, that is the main reason we are here. But life is a gift. We're here to enjoy it. To love others, to spend time doing things we love and working hard in the name of the Lord. He made this all for us, and for himself, too. We are made in his likeness; we're special. We're closer to God than any other creature on this earth. He wants us to be happy and come to him of our own accord.

I agree with a lot of what you said.

But, there are two things I would like to bring up.

1. God may be good, but good isn't the only quality present. Too often people oversimplify and dumb the issue down in defining good as a kodak, feel good, moment full of kittens, puppies, and butterflies. Not only is God considered 'good' but he is also considered 'just' as well. Not only a good God, but justice and impartiality may play major roles as well.

Looking at our justice system which imprisons offenders and executes capital punishment, we may be forced to question what our definition of 'good' implies. And, what 'just' implies in turn.

At times, 'goodness' may conflict with 'justice'. Perhaps in a perfect world ideal 'good' would imply simply forgiving everyone & everything for their wrongs. But, the concept of justice may also demand a certain degree of negativity. And the concept of a person being accountable and responsible for their actions may demand a degree of 'justice' as well.

While a God who is ideally 'good' may be inclined to simply forgive people for everything.

A God who is ideally 'just' may be inclined to not show favortism and treat people as they deserve based on their words and deeds.

Its possible the common ideology of God being ideally 'good' is a means of oversimplifying the topic. It may be similar to those who define God as being completely and exclusively 'love'. They may forget love has a good side AND a bad side. A parent who loves their kids might punish them at times to teach them and help them grow.

People saying that God is 'wholly good' or 'love' doesn't necessarily translate to an oversimplified and watered down context.

2. When people say humans exist to worship or serve God, I wonder if they think about the context of what they're saying...

If God is benevolence, goodness and love... Then, to worship God might figuratively be compared to worshipping love, goodness and benevolence. That may be the key aspect of it.

...

 

[Big Casino]

I hate religious debates so much. Why cant people just learn to get over it and let others think and belive whatever they want and not flaunt that in our faces. Trying to pick apart fact and fiction is endless.
I like to think i keep an open mind but its not something i think about and its not something i care about either.

My mother is a christian and she told me that her church preaches. If you believe and accept that jesus rose from the dead then youl go to heaven. Something along those lines anyway. I Dont believe jesus was a son of god. I think there was a person called jesus around that time whom the stories are based on but he was a regular dude, thats all.
Heaven to me sounds complicated..like what would you do all day? Just sit there and chill with your mates and relatives? Even good people get angry so are there fights? Can you bang chicks in heaven and get drunk?

Once your dead your dead in my eyes. I find the idea of being reborn as someone else alot more believable.
But my mum belives what she does and i believe what i do and we dont say anymore on it. Not a big deal to either of us. I hate the general christian sterotype that everyone seems to think about. Theyre not all like the wankers on the street who try to convert you when your goin about your buisness. One of my mums friends who is a minister now had links to the IRA and spent alot of his life in jail. Lost his sense of smell after sniffing too much coke. Obviously hes reinvented but youd take one look at him and never sus him for a minister. Hes the big guy in the celtic football top with the scar on his face. My mums friends who are christians are all brand new aswell. None of them would even attempt to try and preach theyre relgion to others and they wouldnt get involved with petty arguments trying to prove that god is real. Its real for them and thats all that matters.

Cant we all just get along?

 

[Stoic Hero]

Eh. I guess I'll try to give you a half decent reply to some of these...



It looks to me as if you're making the same error atheists do, but your version is an inverted polar opposite.

Atheists commonly utilize a double standard in how they categorize religious demographics. They believe only atheists are capable of utilizing science or logic & that they have a monopoly on those things. They believe only religion can inspire suicide bombings and fanaticism and that atheists are exempt from those types of behavior(despite north korea using suicide squads and japanese kamikaze attacks in wwii having absolutely nothing to do with religious base). A good deal of their preconceptions are intertwined with prejudiced stereotypes and political revisionism.

In a sense, you're utilizing the same approach in saying religious people can love God, and everything God stands for in terms of morality, but atheists cannot. "Only religious individuals can do good selflessly & atheists must be motivated by self-interest."

We're all people. Atheists and religious people are not two separate species of human being despite atheists and religious demographics treating them as such.

If some atheists are motivated to do good due to their own self interests, undeniably some religious people are motivated by the same. Being religious, atheist or part of any specific demographic isn't a key requirement as no group or faction can claim a monopoly on facts, the truth, logic, science or morality.

The bible says the person who truly loves & believes in God follows his Word.

It doesn't matter if you're reasons for doing so are pure or imperfect. We're all fallible and imperfect. All that matters is a person does the right thing though they may be tempted to do otherwise.

If a person believes in God and religion, they believe doing good is worthwhile and a worthy cause. If a person doesn't believe, they won't view good or morality as being worth their time. That's the main deciding portion of religion and in determining who winds up in heaven and who in hell.

Whether a person claims to be categorized as an atheist or christian, I think, is extremely unimportant within the grand scheme of things. There are people who go to church regularly and claim religion who are the biggest & most immoral douchebags ever. And, maybe, there are atheists who are extremely moral people who actually do believe in God's cause. Even if indirectly.

Treating atheists and religious people as if they were two distinctly separate species with fundamental and intrinsic qualities exclusive to either demographic is a bit drastic, imo. We're all people, we may have different opinions and think differently about some things. But, the more I dealt with both religious people and atheists, the more I realized how identical and similar they were to each other.

You can see it in how atheists constantly complain about religious people shoving their beliefs down peoples throats. In a lot of cases, the same atheists who complain about it - do the same thing. The go and post 500 threads on a forum trying to force their views on others. They try to convince people that atheism is the only "reasonable" and "logical" choice. You can see it in how atheists who complain about religious people not being willing to have their beliefs questioned avoid having atheism be questioned - in defining their belief as a "lack of belief". Atheists don't deal with having their point of view questioned any better than religious people. Often, they're even worse.

In my eyes, religious folks and atheists are often exactly the same. They're stubborn, closed minded & don't want to think about things. They find priests or scientists to do all their thinking for them and rely on them to say what a person should think or believe. They don't deal with someone questioning their point of view or perspective very well. They love to pretend their demographic is superior to others, and that other demographics are inherently flawed. And, most of all, they love to pretend that anyone who has a different idea about things or a different mentality is 'plain stupid'.

If there are differences its that atheists are more political and sneaky about how they do things. Religious people are direct and will tell you you'll go to hell if you don't adhere to their views. Atheists are more indirect and sneaky and will say that if you don't adhere to their views you can't be logical or scientific. There are some minor differences and methodology in terms of the techniques they employ to achieve their ends.

But, for all intent and purpose, religious people and atheists are EXACTLY the same.

Its only vanity, hubris and reality disassociation that convinces people otherwise.



I agree with a lot of what you said.

But, there are two things I would like to bring up.

1. God may be good, but good isn't the only quality present. Too often people oversimplify and dumb the issue down in defining good as a kodak, feel good, moment full of kittens, puppies, and butterflies. Not only is God considered 'good' but he is also considered 'just' as well. Not only a good God, but justice and impartiality may play major roles as well.

Looking at our justice system which imprisons offenders and executes capital punishment, we may be forced to question what our definition of 'good' implies. And, what 'just' implies in turn.

At times, 'goodness' may conflict with 'justice'. Perhaps in a perfect world ideal 'good' would imply simply forgiving everyone & everything for their wrongs. But, the concept of justice may also demand a certain degree of negativity. And the concept of a person being accountable and responsible for their actions may demand a degree of 'justice' as well.

While a God who is ideally 'good' may be inclined to simply forgive people for everything.

A God who is ideally 'just' may be inclined to not show favortism and treat people as they deserve based on their words and deeds.

Its possible the common ideology of God being ideally 'good' is a means of oversimplifying the topic. It may be similar to those who define God as being completely and exclusively 'love'. They may forget love has a good side AND a bad side. A parent who loves their kids might punish them at times to teach them and help them grow.

People saying that God is 'wholly good' or 'love' doesn't necessarily translate to an oversimplified and watered down context.

2. When people say humans exist to worship or serve God, I wonder if they think about the context of what they're saying...

If God is benevolence, goodness and love... Then, to worship God might figuratively be compared to worshipping love, goodness and benevolence. That may be the key aspect of it.

...

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, or else I'm not being as clear as I'd like to be. I wasn't saying atheists are incapable of doing good purely to do good, or that religious people are the only ones who can truly do good and have it count. I'm simply saying that it is impossible for anyone to please God if he does not have faith. Therefore, it is impossible for an atheist to please God, regardless of his intentions. I'm sorry if that came out difficult to interpret.

Now, as a side note, I absolutely believe God will reveal himself to any atheist who is righteous to the core. However, I would think a truly righteous person who doesn't know about God would be more agnostic, or even religious, wouldn't you agree? To choose atheism is to choose a side against a potentially benevolent and righteous creator, which makes no sense if the person is striving to be truly righteous himself. Atheism is a firm belief in the nonexistence of God, or any gods, and thereby eliminates the possibility of an Absolute Good, due to the fact that "good" is the idea of sentient beings, and if there is no Master sentient being, then there cannot be any Absolute Good. The existence of righteousness is debatable to an atheist, and anyone who is truly righteous shouldn't be debating against whether "righteousness" even exists.

God is good, loving, and just.

Christ is the example I will use to show you what I mean.

Christ died on the cross for our sins. You've probably heard it a million times, but what does that truly mean? Well, before Christ, the only solution to sin was to sacrifice animals. It was an imperfect and temporary way to rid yourself of sin and gain God's favor back. And there was no way to fully reunite with God, because you could never sacrifice enough to cover your sin. The true weight of sin was just too much for any of us to be able to cover. God was perfectly just in carrying this out. He is not soft. He always does what he says. However, God does love us, too. He saw our predicament, how we could never reach him of our own accord, so he sent Christ to die for us. Christ was both a heavenly king and the descendent of the royal bloodline of the original man, Adam. So, when he willingly sacrificed his body on the cross, God accepted it as the ultimate sacrifice to make up for man's transgressions. See, God, being just, couldn't forgive man easily. Yet there wasn't a man alive who could bear the weight of the punishment. Christ was the only one who could do it, because he was the only man who never sinned. Thus, his sacrifice was pure, and all of our debt was paid with his death. This is how God is both loving and just. He carried out his punishment, but he found a way to save us. As for good, God is absolute goodness. If you would like to argue that something God has done is "bad" well, God help you, because it was he who gave you the ability to decipher good from bad in the first place.

 

[Ohri-Jin]

I am agnostic as well I think, deitism like Im told.
I dont believe in religion, but I do believe in a higher being.

I see it like this:

Not everyone can go to heaven so how would God choose them?
Well what if Hell is already on earth. Mortal life is Hell already.

Learn your mistakes, seek redemption. You still havent learned, your soul will be put back in a vessel (human body) till you learn and elevate and be righteous from the heart and soul.

Ok how to pick those worthy souls? Put those souls in a very poisonous environment and see if they can still remain pure throughout all the struggles.

A stained soul could never go to heaven. That soul would have to go through the whole circle of life again in another vessel.

So in a way reincarnation is something I believe in.

There is also the theory that there is no heaven, but a collective hive of some sort.
Our souls would gather into the universe and become as one.

There is also the theory of multi-universe/string theory. Could explain the deja -vu phenomenom.

Anyways who knows. We'll see what happens when our vessels start decaying.

 

[Morrigan]

I usually don't participate in such debates cause most of the time they never end or end up badly.
I read till page 3,just letting you know and skipped a few replies so I could answer here.

I don't know how people are taught in other countries but I take it there's a huge difference between Catholic,Orthodox Christians and the rest.
Personally I do believe in God,but I try to keep away from religion since I've been disappointed and I often see people who call themselves Christians behave bad to people who are either Atheists or of other religions or different(but mainly people who say they don't believe in God).
Let's not forget that we shouldn't take a few things literally,since most things in the Bible are used metaphorically so that people can understand the concept(when the Bible was written people didn't have the education we have now,in fact only a few people could afford it).
Maybe I am wrong here but having discussed the concept of Heaven and Hell with a teacher when I was in junior high what I understood is this:
Heaven and Hell aren't exactly places,they are more like conditions and Hell isn't a pit full of fire.That's a misconception(I believe). This is all related to free will of course,through out our life we can take actions through which decide to stay close to God or distance ourself from him.(also our life isn't predetermined since we Christianity supports free will,but there are prophecies of events that will inevitably take place in the future and affect us but whether we "will go to Heaven of Hell" is in our hands.To further explain the concept of Heaven and Hell...Heaven means deciding to love God and stay beside him(like you love your father and you are happy being near him,a loving father that is) while Hell is the result of deteriorating that bond with God that exists(like deciding to disobey your father and you have a bad relationship with him,and usually when you have a bad relationship with one of your parents it usually doesn't make you feel good on the inside,you are unhappy) meaning that the more you distance yourself from him the more that makes you unhappy(isn't hell supposed to be the place where you are stuck feeling all the negatives emotions therefore being UNHAPPY?).That's the point I am trying to make.
Also I am under the impression that God loves all people even if they don't believe in him or haven't had the chance to do so.For example denying him means you decided to stay away from him,to distance yourself from him which is way more different than people who never even got to know him due to their religion being different.I am at loss as to how the ones who have denied him consciously will be "judged"(extreme word for someone who teaches us mercy) but I do believe the ones who are not aware of him cause their cultures and religions are different have a chance to "heaven" too.
Another thing is that there are certain levels for believers(Christian ones),there are those who do believe or try to by following the commandments of God cause they are afraid of Hell,meaning they view God as a judge without mercy and that is considered the lowest level.The second level and superior to the previous one is that of the person who believes and does things according to Christianity(like good deeds) because they expect some sort of reward in return.But the highest of all levels and the more complete one of all is that of the believer who does things out of love(isn't love the whole point of Christianity after all?)both for his God,that means he keeps contact with him,but also out of love for other humans too.In this level the believer views God as his Father and not a cruel judge or someone to get his reward from.
I simply think Christianity isn't about God(only) but everyone too.Caring about others rather than just yourself and loving them even if not the same blood flows in your vein.Even if they are not your close friends.Of course that is not easily accomplished from people normal as we are.It needs a strong spirit and will and perhaps a goodness of heart(which we all have,simply some happen or decide to cultivate and let it grow more than others).
And no I didn't make those things up,that's what I've been taught in my school from books and teachers.Perhaps I need more sources and to do my own research on things.I decided to believe in this kind of God cause it's what I agree with although surely getting to know about Christianity from a young age could affect me a lot easier(just keep in mind that my family isn't religious,very little in fact).
I am not trying to force my views on anyone nor am I a die hard or anything,I just usually happen to read religious things on the internet and especially on Youtube and to me it always felt that some people didn't understand the concept(I might be as well be wrong myself here but I have asked my teachers on this subject a lot of times to understand it better)or there are misconceptions because certain things can be taken too literally(when they are used symbolically).At least the things they said just came into contrast with what I've been taught or sounded way too fanatical which has ticked me off a lot of times.
One last thing I would wanna point out is that I am Orthodox,not sure if it has any point but maybe it has for you.

 

[Shinra Executive]

I am a Catholic, and I can say that atheists commonly try to confuse fact with fiction, and try to make it seem like fact refuting fiction.
The fact is that there is no argument against God, against the afterlife, etc.
You can't do it without laboring under delusions of your own logic.

 

[Shinra Executive]

God is omnipotent so why would he need to test Job?
It sounds almost as if god is a sadist.


Who says that god is absolute goodness? Does god say it? Because if he does, he's biased so we can't take his word on that.
And if god doesn't say it, then who does?

It is stated that God is good in Scripture.

And not in vain, either. In fact, it's centrifugal to God- God is perfect onto Himself. Anything He creates is just an abstract of His own mind, and so He doesn't 'need' to create anything.
Reality is simply a product of His infinite grace.

It's that simple, really.

 

[Sheechiibii]

The truth is nobody knows what's after death. Everything is a belief, even if you believe there's nothing after death, it's still just as much a belief as believing in heaven or reincarnation or anything else. There is no proof, nobody knows what will happen, everything is guesswork and personal opinion (or not so personal for those whom just jump on a bandwagon of a religion but that's another topic entirely). So saying that heaven is false can't be an accurate statement because you can't possibly know that, saying that reincarnation is false or that there is nothing after death - none of them can be called false, because they are all beliefs. The only people who can say accurately that they don't have a belief are people who just hold their hands up and say I have no idea what happens after death or where we first came from; people who literally don't know and don't have any ideas about it. No beliefs can be proven or disproven as long as they are all based on things that nobody knows.

 

[Mr. Zombie]

What I think about "Heaven": I believe in the multiverse. The spiritual teachings of the ancients just describe other dimensional realities. They may be of higher frequency or lower frequency. The higher the frequency, the nearer you're to the Source (which some call God, some call Monad, etc).

To be near with the source means to be in resonance with it. I call it "Source" for a reason, and the reason is that I believe we all (self-conscious beings) came from there (the spark you said). It means that we are all one, and if I hurt you, I'll be hurting myself as well (that some call Karma).

To be in resonance with the Source means to know that we are one and act accordingly. This reminds me of what a man (part of God, not God himself) called Jesus of Nazareth said about 1979 years ago: "Love your neighbor as yourself.". This saying thrills me, and might thrill you as well (and whoever is reading it now). This feeling is the spark shining!

So Heaven is a relative thing, because you may be in one level I may be in another. The souls above this dimension considers this plane(t) to be Hell, and we think Hell is just below our own plane (̶m̶y̶ ̶H̶e̶a̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶G̶a̶v̶i̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ).

It's how the system (reality) works. There's not some bearded man judging everyone in the sky...



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