Hojo. Somethin' Just Ain't Addin' Up

Channizard said:
I could argue that it's a translational error and just dodge a bullet that way... but I do kinda think it's as simple as "Cloud was a Grunt. He was a nobody, nobody (other than Zack in CC) knew who he was.. he didn't have a name." Sephiroth never said he wasn't given a name.. just that he didn't have one.
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Sephiroth was lying to Cloud, period. Sephiroth even told Cloud that he wasn't there at Nibelheim (when he was and Sephiroth knew that as fact) that Cloud was nothing more than a cluster of Jenova cells, that he wasn't real, that he only taken on the memories of a boy named Cloud. Hence never having a name because Sephiroth is implying that he's not real in the first place, to break his mind.
 
Ryushikaze said:
It's not that she's uncomfortable trying to bring out the truth, it's that she's unsure of the truth itself. Remember, to her recollection, Cloud wasn't there, but he still gives an almost perfect account of the events as if he was. Cloud's testimony is so good, he had to have been there, but he wasn't. If you were in her shoes, you'd be just as confused.
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See but that's the thing, like you said she thought Cloud wasn't there. To me it makes her look.... I dunno... something for letting Cloud believe that he was this hero (Zack) that everybody knew and was just trouncing around like he owned the placed when he was just a little grunt. To me she shoulda said something.

Alexis Malaware said:
Sephiroth was lying to Cloud, period. Sephiroth even told Cloud that he wasn't there at Nibelheim (when he was and Sephiroth knew that as fact) that Cloud was nothing more than a cluster of Jenova cells, that he wasn't real, that he only taken on the memories of a boy named Cloud. Hence never having a name because Sephiroth is implying that he's not real in the first place, to break his mind.
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waaaaaaaaaaaat.. I dunno man. =/
 
It was in the game...
Sephiroth tells Cloud he was never at Nibelheim and is not even real, being nothing more than a cluster of Jenova cells who had taken on the memories of a boy named "Cloud." Sephiroth's manipulations and lies take their toll, and shatter Cloud's fragile mind.
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Source Because later in disc 2 Cloud and Tifa discover the truth about Cloud's role in the "Nibelheim" incident and that he is a real person.
 
Channizard said:
See but that's the thing, like you said she thought Cloud wasn't there. To me it makes her look.... I dunno... something for letting Cloud believe that he was this hero (Zack) that everybody knew and was just trouncing around like he owned the placed when he was just a little grunt. To me she shoulda said something.
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Just as an aside, I don't think you can really blame Tifa for this. Human memory is notoriously unreliable, and a person can plant a seed of doubt that will make one question one's own memory fairly easily. If you've seen Groundhog Day, it's like when Bill Murray's character tells that chick at the groundhog ceremony that he was in her 12th grade English class, and mentioned the teacher by name. Was he there? No. Did he have all the information to at least make it seem plausible that he could have been there? Certainly. Granted, in the case of Cloud and Tifa, it's on a larger scale. But that's why they call it a "seed" of doubt. Doesn't have to be very big.

Anyway. Carry on.
 
This thread is just living proof that trying to fully understand the meaning behind the words of sociopaths is bad for your health. Grant it, the sociopaths in this case aren't living breathing people but they still seem to be able to screw with your heads.

Case n point; when they aren't lying just to screw with your sanity they're believing most of the BS they spew out of their mouths.

But yeah due to Sephiroth lies and Hojo's theory about The Reunion Cloud began to seriously question his own existence in this point of the game. He honestly believed that he was just a creation of Hojo until Cloud and Tifa started comparing their memories and this all started with Sephiroth showing just the right amount of images in Cloud's head.

Because for most of the mission Cloud had a helmet on so nobody could see his face so it was very easy for Sephiroth to make him think he really wasn't there.
 
Ayen said:
This thread is just living proof that trying to fully understand the meaning behind the words of sociopaths is bad for your health. Grant it, the sociopaths in this case aren't living breathing people but they still seem to be able to screw with your heads.

Case n point; when they aren't lying just to screw with your sanity they're believing most of the BS they spew out of their mouths.

But yeah due to Sephiroth lies and Hojo's theory about The Reunion Cloud began to seriously question his own existence in this point of the game. He honestly believed that he was just a creation of Hojo until Cloud and Tifa started comparing their memories and this all started with Sephiroth showing just the right amount of images in Cloud's head.

Because for most of the mission Cloud had a helmet on so nobody could see his face so it was very easy for Sephiroth to make him think he really wasn't there.
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Ai, that makes sense, too. Now I can get why Tifa wouldn't tell Cloud about his real past. Still, maybe she should have at least said something like "I don't remember you there, Cloud" but she just... kept to herself.
 
Channizard said:
See but that's the thing, like you said she thought Cloud wasn't there. To me it makes her look.... I dunno... something for letting Cloud believe that he was this hero (Zack) that everybody knew and was just trouncing around like he owned the placed when he was just a little grunt. To me she shoulda said something.
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She's not 'letting' him believe, because he MIGHT be right. Because he KNOWS things that only someone there could know. Cloud is privy to knowledge no one not there should have. So Tifa goes 'Wait, he wasn't there. But only someone who was there would know X. And he Knows X. But he wasn't there... was he?' She did try and say things, to try and find some flaw in his story other than the casting, but she didn't, and she became unsure of her own memories.
 
I dunno man. Let's agree to disagree. To me when I played the game and now as I remember it, it seemed very... I dunno, inconsistant with her. She was someone who wanted to help Cloud be Cloud again.. but during these moments she was very indecisive about what she should/shouldn't tell Cloud.. in a withholding manner. That's what I think.
 
Channizard said:
I dunno man. Let's agree to disagree. To me when I played the game and now as I remember it, it seemed very... I dunno, inconsistant with her. She was someone who wanted to help Cloud be Cloud again.. but during these moments she was very indecisive about what she should/shouldn't tell Cloud.. in a withholding manner. That's what I think.
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'In a withholding manner?' What is that supposed to even mean?

Cloud has revealed a few obvious hiccups by the time you hear the story.
Tifa 'knows' Cloud wasn't there, but knows he knows things he could only know if he was actually there.'
She's not withholding information, she's trying to make him realize things on his own to reduce the trauma. She asks him leading questions on the matter.
Given that learning 'the truth' that he wasn't there in a traumatic jolt caused Cloud to just plain snap, I'd say Tifa was right to be cautious about confronting him on his story for several reasons.
 
You think she was in the right, I think it was kinda bitchy of her to let Cloud live in this make believe land in his head that he was Zack this whole time, a hero almost like Sephiroth (lol) at the time..
 
Channizard said:
You think she was in the right, I think it was kinda bitchy of her to let Cloud live in this make believe land in his head that he was Zack this whole time, a hero almost like Sephiroth (lol) at the time..
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It's actually a Very Bad Idea (tm) to confront people with dissasociative disorders too suddenly. Moreso when they can corroborate their stories just as well as you can. Her actions were entirely advisable. Harsh confrontation here would be bitchy and ill advised.

Remember, the thought most likely going through her head would be "But how would he KNOW that? He'd have to have been there. And he wasn't. Was he?" It's not a cavalier 'Oh let him pretend.' It's 'but what if I'M wrong?'
 
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