Razzberry, may I suggest bringing this issue up on NeoGAF? You will get tons of more responses there and maybe some people can back you up. You are passionate about debate so why not?
how would you feel if this happened to you?
- Thread starter Razberry Knight
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You can't keep arguing that you know Nomura left on good terms, and then complain that he's been shafted. It doesn't work that way. That's the problem, and the reason everyone keeps bringing up that he did indeed leave the project amicably; because you agree with that sentiment, and then give reason after reason for why we should feel bad for him and his project. Tabata has said that Stella was turning out to be a generic damsel in distress, and he wanted a character that was more involved in the story. Nomura had two other absolutely major projects to work on, and wanted to work on them more. Nomura has said that he trusts Tabata's decisions. What's there to be upset about here?
Regardless, anyone who knows anything about the development of this game, knows that it hasn't been in development since 2006. Versus XIII was never anything more than a few target render tech demos, and an idea. So many other games needed worked on at that time, that pre-production on XV didn't even start until late 2012. It was not a game before then. It was an ethereal idea that no doubt went through countless changes already up to that point. Hell, the entire idea changed, no longer having anything official to do with the Fabula Nova Crystalis thing anymore. If you've ever paid a single bit of attention to the development of any game, characters, areas, and ideas are constantly... constantly being changed... especially before actual development actually begins. I'm confident that by the time pre-production actually started, they'd already agreed that it was no longer Versus XIII, and everything from Versus XIII was fair game to change or remove. Tabata has stated that the only thing keeping certain aspects of the story in, is that much of the plot ideas and characters had already been revealed/leaked. But he's not going to shoehorn them in just because people want to see them. He'll do what he has to to make it a cohesive, coherent story. I'd much rather have that, than have them struggle to fit in characters because they're expected to be there for no reason.
Vincent and Yuffie were never intended to be side characters, and Vincent was supposed to be a core part of the story. They were almost completely removed, before being relegated to side characters at the last moment. The whole entire second half of FFIX was supposed to be an entirely different idea, and was supposed to be expanded on by a lot. Sorceress Edea from FFVIII... was actually planned for FFVII! The entire ending to Mass Effect 3 was reworked last minute. The main character in Sonic The Hedgehog... was originally supposed to be Eggman in a nightgown. Watch literally any making-of special, and you'll find countless important characters or ideas that became less and less important as development progressed, until they were finally axed. This is the epitome of common in the development of any narrative. Stella's 'loss' is not a loss. It was normal game development. If the team felt it was better for them, then I will trust that. Until the game comes out, there's no way to prove otherwise.
By the way, the story isn't actually solely Nomura's anyway; it was penned by Kazushige Nojima (who I don't recall you mentioning once), who has expressed the fact that he also is fine with how the story has changed. That both proves that Nomura understands that this is a team effort (not his baby), and that the most important people feel the exclusion of Stella is a fine decision. I don't know what else to say, or how else to say it. Nothing you're complaining about has any proof behind it, and you haven't actually shown any evidence. You're riding on conjecture, and then getting upset when we don't buy it. Again, that's not fair. Forgive me if I don't blindly trust your word, just because you tell me I should.
EDIT: Hopefully this post doesn't come off as angry or anything. It's not intended to be that way. It's just supposed to sound clear and frank
Regardless, anyone who knows anything about the development of this game, knows that it hasn't been in development since 2006. Versus XIII was never anything more than a few target render tech demos, and an idea. So many other games needed worked on at that time, that pre-production on XV didn't even start until late 2012. It was not a game before then. It was an ethereal idea that no doubt went through countless changes already up to that point. Hell, the entire idea changed, no longer having anything official to do with the Fabula Nova Crystalis thing anymore. If you've ever paid a single bit of attention to the development of any game, characters, areas, and ideas are constantly... constantly being changed... especially before actual development actually begins. I'm confident that by the time pre-production actually started, they'd already agreed that it was no longer Versus XIII, and everything from Versus XIII was fair game to change or remove. Tabata has stated that the only thing keeping certain aspects of the story in, is that much of the plot ideas and characters had already been revealed/leaked. But he's not going to shoehorn them in just because people want to see them. He'll do what he has to to make it a cohesive, coherent story. I'd much rather have that, than have them struggle to fit in characters because they're expected to be there for no reason.
Vincent and Yuffie were never intended to be side characters, and Vincent was supposed to be a core part of the story. They were almost completely removed, before being relegated to side characters at the last moment. The whole entire second half of FFIX was supposed to be an entirely different idea, and was supposed to be expanded on by a lot. Sorceress Edea from FFVIII... was actually planned for FFVII! The entire ending to Mass Effect 3 was reworked last minute. The main character in Sonic The Hedgehog... was originally supposed to be Eggman in a nightgown. Watch literally any making-of special, and you'll find countless important characters or ideas that became less and less important as development progressed, until they were finally axed. This is the epitome of common in the development of any narrative. Stella's 'loss' is not a loss. It was normal game development. If the team felt it was better for them, then I will trust that. Until the game comes out, there's no way to prove otherwise.
By the way, the story isn't actually solely Nomura's anyway; it was penned by Kazushige Nojima (who I don't recall you mentioning once), who has expressed the fact that he also is fine with how the story has changed. That both proves that Nomura understands that this is a team effort (not his baby), and that the most important people feel the exclusion of Stella is a fine decision. I don't know what else to say, or how else to say it. Nothing you're complaining about has any proof behind it, and you haven't actually shown any evidence. You're riding on conjecture, and then getting upset when we don't buy it. Again, that's not fair. Forgive me if I don't blindly trust your word, just because you tell me I should.
EDIT: Hopefully this post doesn't come off as angry or anything. It's not intended to be that way. It's just supposed to sound clear and frank
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret I don't think you get it. Its hard to explain. Its like going to a back alley to say what you feel vs inside the convention.
I'm basically preaching to the quire over there but even then. We get fans who insult each other and don't want to be challenged.
But even then they don't understand or want to understand but they love to troll.
ZaXo Ken'Ichi The problem is that you think that the act of leaving in good terms is basically the end all be all. Anything after is what was always intended. And yet, that makes no sense.
But it's not so black and white. There's more to it then that. Tetsuya Nomura left the groundwork. But what is the groundwork? it was confirmed story, characters, and universe. So what's left after all that? Game play. Hajime Tabata pre-2014 was doing mostly game play talk and technical. Pre 2014 I'm sure we all thought Nomura was the brains of the operation and Tabata was the muscle (for a lack of a better phrase).
So when a year later after his departure we are hearing of changes to the concept, it makes no sense to believe your and AuronX's theory that these changes were planned since 2013. How can Nomura talk about Stella, reassure fans that final fantasy XV is still versus XIII, and yet Hajime Tabata say the opposite in late 2014.
Lets also point out another huge flaw in your perspective that seems to now be part of the issue. Kazushige Nojima "penned" the story. But he was following the lead of Tetsuya Nomura's vision. The technical term is Scenario writer. Kazushige Nojima is the scenario writer, not story concept Creator.
The story wasn't his sort to speak. But even then the act of removing a a character and replacing them is a bigger move. That means more reworking then ever and the safest thing to do is ask the Creator.
Now I know the common theory is that it had to be reworked because they wanted to remove it from Fabula Nova Crystallis project. That would make sense but no interview supports this. In 2013, final fantasy xv trailer had "fabula Nova crystallis" on it. So if it was removed by the time you and AuronX mention then we would've been hearing a completely different story. We would've heard "there are changes soon to come that we will announce soon." "FINAL Fantasy Xv is not final fantasy versus XIii"
So to think that the changes we're happening during that time? Lets look at Regis. His character model in 2013 wasn't the same one in versus xiii trailers. Lets also look at the demeanor of this character before and after.
Yes changes happen. I'm not against change. I'm against someone else superceding the fundamental changes that may not line up to someone else's original vision/intentions.
HERE'S THE STANDSTILL:
Either Square Enix/Dev team is too stupid to clarify and address it. Or it really is what it seems like and they're too arrogant to address further. One or the other, but never neither.
I'm basically preaching to the quire over there but even then. We get fans who insult each other and don't want to be challenged.
But even then they don't understand or want to understand but they love to troll.
ZaXo Ken'Ichi The problem is that you think that the act of leaving in good terms is basically the end all be all. Anything after is what was always intended. And yet, that makes no sense.
But it's not so black and white. There's more to it then that. Tetsuya Nomura left the groundwork. But what is the groundwork? it was confirmed story, characters, and universe. So what's left after all that? Game play. Hajime Tabata pre-2014 was doing mostly game play talk and technical. Pre 2014 I'm sure we all thought Nomura was the brains of the operation and Tabata was the muscle (for a lack of a better phrase).
So when a year later after his departure we are hearing of changes to the concept, it makes no sense to believe your and AuronX's theory that these changes were planned since 2013. How can Nomura talk about Stella, reassure fans that final fantasy XV is still versus XIII, and yet Hajime Tabata say the opposite in late 2014.
Lets also point out another huge flaw in your perspective that seems to now be part of the issue. Kazushige Nojima "penned" the story. But he was following the lead of Tetsuya Nomura's vision. The technical term is Scenario writer. Kazushige Nojima is the scenario writer, not story concept Creator.
The story wasn't his sort to speak. But even then the act of removing a a character and replacing them is a bigger move. That means more reworking then ever and the safest thing to do is ask the Creator.
Now I know the common theory is that it had to be reworked because they wanted to remove it from Fabula Nova Crystallis project. That would make sense but no interview supports this. In 2013, final fantasy xv trailer had "fabula Nova crystallis" on it. So if it was removed by the time you and AuronX mention then we would've been hearing a completely different story. We would've heard "there are changes soon to come that we will announce soon." "FINAL Fantasy Xv is not final fantasy versus XIii"
So to think that the changes we're happening during that time? Lets look at Regis. His character model in 2013 wasn't the same one in versus xiii trailers. Lets also look at the demeanor of this character before and after.
Yes changes happen. I'm not against change. I'm against someone else superceding the fundamental changes that may not line up to someone else's original vision/intentions.
HERE'S THE STANDSTILL:
Either Square Enix/Dev team is too stupid to clarify and address it. Or it really is what it seems like and they're too arrogant to address further. One or the other, but never neither.
Well? Im here providing a compromise, and no one wants to give me the respect to at least end the conversation with a close?
I just cant stand this behavior. I get this all the time. The very moment the argument is aware of the points and where there is jo need to go in circles. People. Top discussing.
Rhis is why i think people are afraid. This is why i believw no one has the guts to end a conversation.
And trust me, its not me that goes in circles. I reclarify, but only because people provide the same points that were already brought up over a dozen times and never do the clarifying up until the very end of the convo.
None of you know what youre talking about.. no one knows what its like to know things. And i say that in pure confidence. I know because no one addresses the contradictions Or would rather oversimplify it until it makes sense.
I just cant stand it. Do you all understand why i see it this way? Do you all understand why there is absolutely no other possibility other than the scenario i presented? Yes or No.
If yes, then at least compromise the question below: Square Enix is either too stupid to make it seem like all the changes happened after Nomuras departure and never wanted to address it. Or Square Enix is too arrogant not to because its exactly what it seems. (It can definitely NOT be neither)
If No and you dont want to understand. At least say so if you were someone here.
I just cant stand this behavior. I get this all the time. The very moment the argument is aware of the points and where there is jo need to go in circles. People. Top discussing.
Rhis is why i think people are afraid. This is why i believw no one has the guts to end a conversation.
And trust me, its not me that goes in circles. I reclarify, but only because people provide the same points that were already brought up over a dozen times and never do the clarifying up until the very end of the convo.
None of you know what youre talking about.. no one knows what its like to know things. And i say that in pure confidence. I know because no one addresses the contradictions Or would rather oversimplify it until it makes sense.
I just cant stand it. Do you all understand why i see it this way? Do you all understand why there is absolutely no other possibility other than the scenario i presented? Yes or No.
If yes, then at least compromise the question below: Square Enix is either too stupid to make it seem like all the changes happened after Nomuras departure and never wanted to address it. Or Square Enix is too arrogant not to because its exactly what it seems. (It can definitely NOT be neither)
If No and you dont want to understand. At least say so if you were someone here.
I understand your points and I actually had no interest in posting any longer in this thread. I suggested you take it up somewhere else. We are a small community here and the points will keep on going in circles like those that you hate. If you feel very strongly about this then another forum like neogaf should welcome civilized debate on this subject. Nobody is trying to push you out. We understand your points but none of us is fully going to agree with them because it is meaningless conjecture at this point. I hope this helps you.
For the record you we're never in this conversation. Nor were you ever invited. We've had our differences, but you intentionally ignore truth. If the fff also do what you do, then fine. we've been told to ignore each other.
But don't accuse me of conjecture. I know hat I'm saying. I'm looking at all the points.
In 2013 Tetsuya Nomura commented on my why tetsuya he changed the design for stella and still referred to her as Stella. Keep in kind he is still talking about the same character. this is definitive proof that Stella was still part of the designnin 2013 when Nomura was still director.
In 2014 after his departure Hajime Tabata confirmed that LunA is a brand new character with new role. She is not Stella nor was she born from the changes of Stella. SHE WAS DESIGNED AROUND TO REPLACE HER BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T UNDERSTAND HER ROLE. Also in 2014 also consistently when referring to things mentioned in previously when it was still Final Fantasy versus XIII, Hajime Tabata would continue to state these two are not the same game anymore. When in 2013 Nomura said otherwise, he would say that he was assured the cision wouldnt change if the name had changed.
Common sense would he announce that it's different BEFORE the original directors departure, not after. The dev team attempted to make a Dawn Trailer as a re-introduction to FFXV. The "new" Final Fantasy XV.
How can anyone DENY the proof that the changes happened after. That is the golden "conjecture" provided by AuronX and supported by others, but never explicitely proven unlike mine. All i need to do is provide how things changed after his departure, that's it. In order to have definitive proof and trump my solid scenario (completely based on the facts presented) they need to prove that the changes came before and approved by Nomura.
Which they can't. None of the changes have been credited to him, none of them ever mentioned him once. Not even involved in the process. And they kind of need to.
someone recently told me "why do you care about Nomuras opinion when The father of final fantasy gave a favorable opinion?"
And my response is: "isn't it a shady move to even ask for his opinion over the father of the concept rather than the father of the FF series? Why not have both?"
I have provided an easy way out of this. I'm willing to BELIEVE and I mean fully whole heartedly BELIEVE that Nomura was involved in the changes. I want that, I want it more than anything. It means hope for me.
But in order to believe that, I would have to ignore points provided by Hajime Tabata. I would have to ignore how many times he said he changed things around.
And in order to ignore it, I have to believe he was simply incompetent person. He doesn't know how to express himself, he never thought of crediting him nor did he thought it was important.
So there's no circles. Here is the moment. Here is where it can end. Where I will believe YOU if you answer the question above.
Thule Esperada
Blue Mage
Just dropping by to give my 5 cents so to speak. The fact that Nomura is quoted as beign fine with the changes should be taken with a few tons of salt licks. Because he's contractually obligated to say so. Developers and creators are never allowed to speak their minds regarding projects they are working on. They can only say what the higher ups or PR say is okay, because their contracts could be terminated for potentially sabotaging the product's sales. And the original creator saying he's not happy with the changes would be quite the blow to the products image. It's should also be noted that the japanese gaming industry in general doesn't hold creators in a very high regard, so Nomura and his vision beign shafted wouldn't be that unusual.
We won't know the truth about the situation untill propably a decade from now, when the product's success isn't an issue anymore and the creators are given the leniency to give more genuine answers.
We won't know the truth about the situation untill propably a decade from now, when the product's success isn't an issue anymore and the creators are given the leniency to give more genuine answers.
Funny thing is that Nomura has not been quoted to be fine with the changes so far.
EDIT: I'm glad someone finally understands
Ugh... Nobody said that we didn't understand. But again, it's totally pointless to care, because the reality of the situation is that this is all conjecture based on hazy hear-say. We can't prove that anything he says is honest, or isn't honest. So thinking about it gets nothing done.
This is not a private discussion. Lunafreya merely offered a friendly suggestion and with all due respect it's not your place to tell anyone who is or isn't part of a conversation on this forum. And again: personal accusations do not belong here, either. Careful how you choose your words about others.
I don't intend to discuss the main points of this thread over again, but I'm genuinely curious: would your opinion of everything that concerns you about FFXV change if Nomura came forward and said he IS the source of all the changes?
doesn't matter. We we're told to avoid each other. And here lunafreya isn't holding his end of the deal. I don't care public or not, when a moderator or even another member makes an agreement like that, you honor it. Lunafreya just pointing the consensus, not providing anything toward the topic.
I'm not going to play around with hypotheticals. AuronX I provided you the ultimate way to end this discussion. You can answer my ultimatum with respect or disrespect me, and leave me hateful and jaded about the situation.
Its only fair you answer my question before I answer yours. If you don't want leave like the common member here who just doesn't want to truly end something. But just remember that I will never forget
This entire thread is a hypothetical. If you don't want to carry it on any farther I respect that, but lets at least hold ourselves to the same standards as we hold others. That in itself will make communication much easier.
Discussion is a two-way street. You can't give everyone an ultimatum and say that we have to follow your rules or we've failed our own arguments.
Not completely. Its based on actual facts. the only hypothetical if it hapoened to you and some thoughts but everyrhing is a fact. You are asking me if hypothetically nomur ahas spoken outloud and said he approved them, would i be ok. And the answer to that is im not answering. You have not given the subject the respect it deserves. How can you ask questions right after refusing to answer mine. And yes. Facts. But if you want to talk about standards as mine, then I simply won't answer.
We are at the fork on the road. There is too much evidence contradicting what you claim. Do you understand?
Seems more like an impasse than a fork. We disagree with the idea that there's too much evidence contradicting our claims (or at least I do). That would imply that there's no where else to go.
You never acknowledge or disprove any of the factors I presented. I'm lingering here waiting to hear and no one has yet to counter any of the actual points presented.
AuronX ZaXo Ken'Ichi in order for this argument to end with me leaving believing Nomura is happy with the changes, then I have to blatantly ignore that Nomura spoke about Stella in 2013. That in 2014 (not 2013) Hajime Tabata explicitly say that they had to change it. I have to believe that Nomura was the original Creator of Lunafreya, Regis redesign and more. I have to believe that everything was by design of Nomura before he left.
Either you have explicit proof (which I know you don't have) OR you have to say Square Enix / tabata were incompetent and don't know how to present inform which is it going to be?
Either you have explicit proof (which I know you don't have) OR you have to say Square Enix / tabata were incompetent and don't know how to present inform which is it going to be?
Again, that's just not how this works.
There's like three different conversations going on in one, allowing you to dance around any points we're trying to make, but somehow making us unequivocally wrong.
You say that Nomura was shafted. When we retort by claiming that we don't actually know how any of this went down, you argue you have evidence to the contrary. Yet you have only provided one link thus far, and it was to an article where Tabata vaguely explains that changes had to be made to the game, which is concrete evidence of nothing you've been claiming. We're just supposed to take your word for it, because you've given no proof of anything.
You start to talk about how we should feel bad for Nomura. When we once again say that we don't know how any of this really went down, and shouldn't feel pity for him for no reason, you once again reference proof you have not given us, and claim we're wrong.
There are even points in here where you say the opposite, and try to claim that you never said we should feel bad for Nomura, or that he never got shafted. But then you go right back to expecting us to understand why we should feel bad for him regardless.
You say that it's not Nomura VS Tabata, but then go right back calling Tabata out and saying he's "ignorant or arrogant", while giving reasons why Nomura's vision was better.
So as sort of an "In the end" style statement, we counter by basically saying that none of this matters as long as the game is good when it's released. We argue that this sort of thing is commonplace in all entertainment media, and there's no reason to ruin your experience with a game just because of silly 'what-if' scenarios. You then simultaneously argue that the thread isn't about the quality of the product, and then stake the claim that all of the cut/changed content was better before, which is making the game worse now.
What is anyone to say to any of this? One minute it's about Nomura's feelings. The next, Nomura feels fine about the situation. The next, he actually does feel bad about how things went down, but public relations prevent him from revealing the truth. The next, the new changes to the game are objectively bad for the final product. And the next, the conversation has nothing to do with the quality of the game, and we're supposed to stop bringing it up. There are no battles to fight here. I'm sorry, but -whether intention or accidental- you've done little thus far but to create symantic-level land mines for us to jump around. Everything we say is either wrong because you have (unprovided) proof to the contrary, or because that's not part of the conversation you want to have. Even if you did provide proof, we've already made our stance clear; none of this matters to us:
1. If the game is good when it releases.
2. Until we get 100% confirmation that Nomura was or wasn't screwed over, which will only likely happen a decade from now.
We're not facing off with your ultimatum because -aside from the fact that that's not how conversational debate works- you have provided no proof, and because our beliefs on this subject are incompatible with your ultimatum. To interface with it would require either ignoring or rescinding on our beliefs on the topic; it feels more like a trick to force us into a corner, than actual open debate. Since we're not willing to ignore our beliefs to interface with your ultimatum, we have reached an impasse. It's okay if people don't always agree with you, you know. That's particularly true when it deals with things that effectively don't exist in our lives yet. XV isn't out, and neither is confirmation of nearly anything potentially controversial that surrounds its development. But when we bring up that there's no reason to waste so much time trying to solidify conjecture, you start claiming that little in this thread is based in conjecture... despite the whole point of the thread being about conjecture.
By the way, I also kind of find it insulting that, when we try to say that we have been in situations similar to Nomura's, you say that we 'definitely haven't; not even close'. But then you turn around and claim you definitely know the situation much better than us. How would you know that? What do you actually know about the projects we've worked on? Despite me wanting to ask you to prove it, I didn't, because I figured I would trust that you're telling the truth. Is is really fair to claim that we somehow lack understanding of the situation, but that you don't because 'reasons'? And if that's the reality of the situation, why would you expect anyone to be able to answer your thread's question in the first place? According to you, none of us actually knows what it feels like, and therefore can't put ourselves in Nomura's shoes. Only you do.
Honestly, I'm not trying to attack you at all. But there's a reason this thread has gotten more and more warped/off topic as time has gone on. And it's because every time one of us offers up an argument for consideration, it's somehow always either beside the point, untrue despite lack of proof to the contrary, or irrelevant to the conversation you want to have. So what is anyone to say, if everything we say is wrong in ten different ways?
I'd say, if you want to try and get actual debate going, restate all of your main points as clearly as possible. Provide any evidence you have. Then we can try and start back from square one. But don't get upset if our conclusion is still that this is all just rather pointless conjecture. At that point, the only thing we'd really be disagreeing on is whether we want to be pessimistic or optimistic about the situation, which is hardly something to get upset over
There's like three different conversations going on in one, allowing you to dance around any points we're trying to make, but somehow making us unequivocally wrong.
You say that Nomura was shafted. When we retort by claiming that we don't actually know how any of this went down, you argue you have evidence to the contrary. Yet you have only provided one link thus far, and it was to an article where Tabata vaguely explains that changes had to be made to the game, which is concrete evidence of nothing you've been claiming. We're just supposed to take your word for it, because you've given no proof of anything.
You start to talk about how we should feel bad for Nomura. When we once again say that we don't know how any of this really went down, and shouldn't feel pity for him for no reason, you once again reference proof you have not given us, and claim we're wrong.
There are even points in here where you say the opposite, and try to claim that you never said we should feel bad for Nomura, or that he never got shafted. But then you go right back to expecting us to understand why we should feel bad for him regardless.
You say that it's not Nomura VS Tabata, but then go right back calling Tabata out and saying he's "ignorant or arrogant", while giving reasons why Nomura's vision was better.
So as sort of an "In the end" style statement, we counter by basically saying that none of this matters as long as the game is good when it's released. We argue that this sort of thing is commonplace in all entertainment media, and there's no reason to ruin your experience with a game just because of silly 'what-if' scenarios. You then simultaneously argue that the thread isn't about the quality of the product, and then stake the claim that all of the cut/changed content was better before, which is making the game worse now.
What is anyone to say to any of this? One minute it's about Nomura's feelings. The next, Nomura feels fine about the situation. The next, he actually does feel bad about how things went down, but public relations prevent him from revealing the truth. The next, the new changes to the game are objectively bad for the final product. And the next, the conversation has nothing to do with the quality of the game, and we're supposed to stop bringing it up. There are no battles to fight here. I'm sorry, but -whether intention or accidental- you've done little thus far but to create symantic-level land mines for us to jump around. Everything we say is either wrong because you have (unprovided) proof to the contrary, or because that's not part of the conversation you want to have. Even if you did provide proof, we've already made our stance clear; none of this matters to us:
1. If the game is good when it releases.
2. Until we get 100% confirmation that Nomura was or wasn't screwed over, which will only likely happen a decade from now.
We're not facing off with your ultimatum because -aside from the fact that that's not how conversational debate works- you have provided no proof, and because our beliefs on this subject are incompatible with your ultimatum. To interface with it would require either ignoring or rescinding on our beliefs on the topic; it feels more like a trick to force us into a corner, than actual open debate. Since we're not willing to ignore our beliefs to interface with your ultimatum, we have reached an impasse. It's okay if people don't always agree with you, you know. That's particularly true when it deals with things that effectively don't exist in our lives yet. XV isn't out, and neither is confirmation of nearly anything potentially controversial that surrounds its development. But when we bring up that there's no reason to waste so much time trying to solidify conjecture, you start claiming that little in this thread is based in conjecture... despite the whole point of the thread being about conjecture.
By the way, I also kind of find it insulting that, when we try to say that we have been in situations similar to Nomura's, you say that we 'definitely haven't; not even close'. But then you turn around and claim you definitely know the situation much better than us. How would you know that? What do you actually know about the projects we've worked on? Despite me wanting to ask you to prove it, I didn't, because I figured I would trust that you're telling the truth. Is is really fair to claim that we somehow lack understanding of the situation, but that you don't because 'reasons'? And if that's the reality of the situation, why would you expect anyone to be able to answer your thread's question in the first place? According to you, none of us actually knows what it feels like, and therefore can't put ourselves in Nomura's shoes. Only you do.
Honestly, I'm not trying to attack you at all. But there's a reason this thread has gotten more and more warped/off topic as time has gone on. And it's because every time one of us offers up an argument for consideration, it's somehow always either beside the point, untrue despite lack of proof to the contrary, or irrelevant to the conversation you want to have. So what is anyone to say, if everything we say is wrong in ten different ways?
I'd say, if you want to try and get actual debate going, restate all of your main points as clearly as possible. Provide any evidence you have. Then we can try and start back from square one. But don't get upset if our conclusion is still that this is all just rather pointless conjecture. At that point, the only thing we'd really be disagreeing on is whether we want to be pessimistic or optimistic about the situation, which is hardly something to get upset over
I know you haven't been following. The ultimatum exist for a reason. I'm not bringing this up for no reason.
So far every important point I make is blatantly being ignored. Its like you all live in a dimension where whatever important point I'm making is not conceivable because its in another dimension.
If you want further proof or having difficulty understanding you can ask. Were at an impasse because in order to move forward you need to WANT to understand. And it shows you don't.
There's multiple people talking to me at once. Sue me. And even then I try to acknowledge ALL points. YOU do not. We are at the point where I'm giving you the option to disregard all points presented because you haven't acknowledged them once.
Were no longer debating whether you agree or not, I'm giving you an option to explain all contradictions by explaining the contradictions enough for me to ignore them. This is your win win scenario
SHAFTED is a word conjured by everyone else here for oversimplifying my view. It destroys everything I've been trying to say. It destroys every detail I brought and makes it look like an ugly easy way to add semantics on top of semantics on top of all of what I was trying to say. SHAFTED isn't my choice of word. It also makes it look like Nomura got kicked out of the project with a big middle finger.
So no. I am not saying Nomura got "shafted". I'm saying there was a series of events that couldn't be helped. However the only one I believe that was a biggest blow was that he did not get the chance to put a word in when the important game-changing decisions we're being made.
most of what I said is common sense. Any ffxv fan knows about the events and the timeline to them.
There is MORE reason to believe this scenario (especially since nothing I said was a lie, the only hypothetical is the implemented emotion). I have yet to find a reason to believe otherwise.
Unless Nomura says otherwise.
never used the word pity. Thats all you. But in this scenario, we should feel angry/upset about it. Its not just Nomura who loses out.
wouldn't you if you we're presenting the same point?
I'm curious. What the hell do you think I mean when you say the word shafted. because I never used that word.
I do expect you to understand I order to move forward, because it's easy disassociating everything and act like a heartless robot just to "win" an argument. You're not trying to see logic or reason.
Your mind is on Turbo mode. It only catches a couple words here and there. You don't quote my entire my argument. You catch what you want and ignore the rest. I try my best to acknowledge everything.
But this is ridiculous. You're not trying to understand.
because I'm not saying this is about Tabata hating on Nomura. This isn't about which I prefer over. There's so much to be said but you don't want to stick around when something new comes up. you want to counter and whatever contradiction or loose end, you attack on all fours. But you don't want clarification.
If the situation was in reverse, I would gladly be on Hajime Tabatas side as the original concept Creator, designer and more.
if you start quoting maybe you'll know what I'm talking about. you don't read. You all skim. You don't care what I have to say.
We are passed the point of acting like we dont know anything. We are at the point where im challenging all of you to provide a counter theory. AuronX is the only one providing such theory. You all just blindly rally behind the theory because it means going against my reasoning (or maybe not the reasoning itself)
AuronX main argument is that everything was wrong because the changes actually happened "during" Nomuras time as director. But then it changed to Nomura set the base and Hajime Tabata was only following the changes that Nomura already planned (and used Kingsglaive as only proof).
But that doesn't acknowledge that Hajime Tabata never crediting Nomura nor pointing out that the changes happened after especially toward more bigger changes such as Stella and Regis who were all designed by other staff members (not Nomura). This is important because he actually has credited Nomura before when the chose release date.
We also have to take into consideration that Stella was referenced and still intended for in 2013 when Nomura was director. (Again common knowledge)
And that's why the ultimatum exist. This is your end-all win. To say Hajime Tabata didn't know how to address situation.
Hajime didnt make it clear that this was all based on Nomuras changes. (If its true.) Aka OPTION A. He was ignorant. Because in order to disregard all the proof saying otherwise, I have to disregard what hajime has been saying.
Or Option B, hajimeis aware, and simply doesn't want to address it. Aka, he's arrogant.
But those are the only possibilities based on where the chips lie. Do you honestly think i want to believe Nomura lost out in one of the most important decision for the story? I wish I had enough evidence otherwise, I wish he made just one meesily statement saying he's happy. That would end it for me.Bbb
But the next best thing is for Hajime Tabata jot clarifying for either arrogance or ignorance.
OK this statement is actually the bigger contradiction. you can't say this is common and then go demeaning this situation by calling it "what if". Its a lot more what if. at this point.
Correct, the thread itself is not about quality. I mentioned how it could affect it regardless. and I mentioned it because no one understands my stance. it shows how it matters to me as a content Creator. Not in a technical standpoint, obviously ffxv is pushing the specs of xboxone and ps4. I'm arguing in a clearly more thematic aspect. I explained this but you weren't listening. I brought up ff12 as an example.
you act like there's so many points to follow. And again I'm responding to multiple people and I'm doing it alone.
and yet instead of making this a matter of logic and reason that is exactly what you're doing. You are fighting. Thats why you are ignoring the ultimatum, not because the ultimatum is a win-lose. Its because you don't want to submit to it.
You don't challenge a point, just the main argument. You ignore everything else as of it was never said and then say we're at an I'm passe. When we're not. You all just need to acknowledge what is being said.
you're not even trying. The most hypocritical thing for you to say now Because most of this is your words.
and who is actually getting screwed over here in this argument? This is exactly why I brought up the scenario for you to actually see the events as they are presented..I haven't provided a false statement once. The hypothetical is based on series of events that were revealed through a interviews.
The ultimatum is there because no one has even acknowledge anything I said. Its like talking to someone who spaces out every 5 seconds.
I know its true. Tell me otherwise...tell me when you we're in a 6 year plus project, or a project you conceptualized years ago and you had to move to another project only to see the final product different from what you wanted.
I honestly don't care at this point. Why should I care if no one actually listens. Do you know how a discussion actually works? I say one thing, you say another.
No one is explaining the real conflicting pieces of information. Which again yours is a bigger theory than mine. Mine is a high probability.
first of all you don't know how Public Relations affects on sharing information up until someone else had to say the same thing I'VE been trying to say. Unless you will tell me you work in the industry and have this situation all the time where you've been the leader of a project you conceptualized and created and then see someone else make changes.
Don't act insulted of it's the truth.
I have not seen you mention one truth on how PR works. If you did you would know what I bring up is a high high probability, past 50% which is extremely high.
Unfortunately you all want to act like it's not likely when it is. And when you do acknowledge it you want to act like everyone has to deal with it and yet still detatch yourself completely from it. So I know you don't care either way. In 10 years when Nomura comes out and says it, will you care? There's a reason why I brought it up now.
Because you don't quote, you use your own words and overall treat like you need to win/lose. You are so detached from what is realistically probable and you just don't want to understand. I know this because you blatantly ignore valid points. I get literally no response. You think I'm a mind reader and know when you read something and chose to ignore it?
When I present the question what would happen if this happened to you. You act like you know and should be prepared. And I say BS to that. No one is prepared for that, especially a project conceptualized by you for years.
I have as clearly as possible and it gets ignored or never acknowledged. It never gets brought up again.I'd say, if you want to try and get actual debate going, restate all of your main points as clearly as possible. Provide any evidence you have. Then we can try and start back from square one. But don't get upset if our conclusion is still that this is all just rather pointless conjecture. At that point, the only thing we'd really be disagreeing on is whether we want to be pessimistic or optimistic about the situation, which is hardly something to get upset over
I'm done doing the re explaining. If you want to understand go back and find something you didn't understand. I'm done holding your hands. The ultimatum was born out the contradictions presented by AuronX theory, to accept the theory as is we have to ignore it.