Interpreting FFVII's ending.

[JDawg]

Ronin, it is a pleasure to talk with you. Just when I thought I knew how smart you are, you surprise me yet again. Solid post, man. Again, I do have a couple of points I'd like to talk about, even though I agree with everything else.

Exactly. It's our heightened sentience and technology that make us so prone to violence

The problem I have with that is every[/li] animal is violent. I don't believe we are any more prone to violence than anything else. The difference is that the scope of the violence is far greater, and has even taken a toll on the environment.

I think it didn't show humans at the end of VII for a reason. The lesser animal forms were the ones who could coexist with nature perfectly, humans could never be able to do that. Even if the planet did rebirth humans, there would always be the few who rejected the utopia and wanted more. Animals can be content if they're simply given an environment to live peacefully in. Humans, as a whole, can't seem to learn to be content.

It's true, I agree. I think a central theme of FFVII dealt with Mankind's inability to live in harmony with the planet. Unfortunately, our social structures and rapid population growth make living in a way other than depleting our natural resources very difficult.

See that's what I've been saying all along! But someone *coughSummonerYunacough* thinks that indifference isn't enough reason to wipe out humanity.

Well, to be fair, it's hard to imagine that the developers would get that deep in their message. It's a video game, after all, and happy endings benefit the industry. And the ending we are supposing is the most dire of all endings.

Well, put yourself in the planet's position. Say you have a species living on you, and as they progress technologically they get worse. Finally, a giant corporation shows up and begins to suck the life out of you, knowing full well that it's your life source and not caring. Then you have a select group of 9 people who fight for you,

Agreed. It's also important to remember that the Weapons attacked us. That wasn't just a vehicle to achieve some bad-ass boss fights, it was part of the storyline. Why did they attack us, if the planet deemed us OK? The answer is that the planet didn't deem us OK.

To me, if I had a whole species who didn't care about me save for 9 (actually no, it would be 8 since Nanaki isn't human) and the rest couldn't give a damn, I'd be like "screw you people." Indifference can be just as bad as destruction. Some could argue indifference is even worse, since you know what's going on but simply just don't care

Exactly. Though the one thing that throws a wrench in our theory is Holy, and the Lifestream. They both reacted against Meteor, we just don't know if it was effective. We don't know if the image fo Midgar was a freeze-frame of Midgar following a direct strike, or if it was just an abandoned city 500 years after people were saved, and realized that they could not longer live that way.

 

[Rockman X]

Ronin, it is a pleasure to talk with you. Just when I thought I knew how smart you are, you surprise me yet again. Solid post, man. Again, I do have a couple of points I'd like to talk about, even though I agree with everything else.

Haha, why thank you

The problem I have with that is every animal is violent. I don't believe we are any more prone to violence than anything else. The difference is that the scope of the violence is far greater, and has even taken a toll on the environment.

Nuh uh! Okay...yeah they are. But as you said, our scope of violence is far greater. Not only do we have the means for greater destruction, but even our "intelligence" allows us to come up with tortures and other things.

It's true, I agree. I think a central theme of FFVII dealt with Mankind's inability to live in harmony with the planet. Unfortunately, our social structures and rapid population growth make living in a way other than depleting our natural resources very difficult.

You know, in a recent interview with Serj Tankian about his upcoming solo album, he touched on that. He said that civilization is coming to an end because we're depleting our resources so much, and that as a whole species we need to come together and figure out just how we're going to survive without our precious oils and other things. Not like we'll be able to do that, though... Interview here, if you're interested, he doesn't say it till the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aIJ8W1o5KI

Well, to be fair, it's hard to imagine that the developers would get that deep in their message. It's a video game, after all, and happy endings benefit the industry. And the ending we are supposing is the most dire of all endings.

Haha, true, I think a little too much.

Agreed. It's also important to remember that the Weapons attacked us. That wasn't just a vehicle to achieve some bad-ass boss fights, it was part of the storyline. Why did they attack us, if the planet deemed us OK? The answer is that the planet didn't deem us OK.

Well you got around to mentioning them before I did. People who theorize that humanity lived should remember why the WEAPONS were awoken in the first place. They weren't woken up to defeat ShinRa...they were there to cleanse the world of humans because of the damage they'd caused to the planet. Now I know, I know, it wasn't all the humans that caused the damage. However, ShinRa was a large corporation and I'm sure their history was much like ours and full of war and other things harmful to the planet. The planet wasn't making the discernment between "nice" humans and "bad" humans. It was looking at humanity as a whole, and as a whole humanity had been more harmful than beneficial for the planet.

Exactly. Though the one thing that throws a wrench in our theory is Holy, and the Lifestream. They both reacted against Meteor, we just don't know if it was effective. We don't know if the image fo Midgar was a freeze-frame of Midgar following a direct strike, or if it was just an abandoned city 500 years after people were saved, and realized that they could not longer live that way.

Well, from the ending in 7 we can see Meteor tearing up Midgar, and when Holy is summoned Nanaki says that Holy is actually having the opposite effect it was supposed to, i.e. it was only amplifying Meteor's destruction of Midgar. Now, as I said in a previous post, given what happened in Mideel when the Lifestream erupted it would make sense that with the entire Lifestream spewing out of the earth it would tear the continents up. That would explain what is seen at the end.

We see Nanaki and his kids running up a large barren cliff to the south of Midgar. South of Midgar wasn't barren, dry rock before. Not only that, but notice there's water surrounding Migdar and flowing into it? That would have to do with the continents (and likely the ecosystem) being changed by the Lifestream.

Now take into consideration the way people are. We are hairless creatures (save for our heads and other small areas), and we are very finicky people when it comes to temperature. We can only be comfortable in a range of about 30 degrees. Now look at animals, they can survive perfectly in climates that we would find unbearable. Likely the entire climate of the planet changed (since the surrounding of Midgar is very lush, almost to the point of being tropical). Even if humanity was spared, it is very likely that they became extinct anyway because they simply couldn't adapt to the changing environment.

*EDIT* And I forgot to post the damn link to the ending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4_sw0trdNc

 

[Summoner Yuna]

Ronin, I agree with JDawg that you make excellent points. However, I want you to go back to the Corel example I mantioned in a previous post. The people of Corel didn't want to do anything with Shinra. They wanted to go on with their peaceful way of life. But some, like Barret, were led to believe that Shinra was the best thing ever to happen. Why is that? Because Shinra lied, the people were misinformed about what the company would do or how that would affect the planet. It's not that the people don't care, they simply didn't know. Ignorance is a great strategy to have people under control. Another case in point: Nibelheim. Something really bad happned there, but Shinra did everything under the son to cover it, and even succeeded. It's also called manipulation.
Also, remember that the whole idea of the lifestream is that it is cycle. All living things come and return to the lifestream. I think that when the "souls" that come from the lifestream live in this world they become enriched with the experiences in this life and when they return to the planet it allows the planet to continue to exist and in turn create new life, which also becomes enriched. Without this enrichment the planet wouldn't be able to mantain itself. Humang beings, being the most sentient of beings (apart from Nanaki's species) bring the most enrichment into the lifestream. So it's kind of like a symbiotic relation. Life needs the planet, the planet needs life. I'd like to hear your opinion on this. So I believe that the planet would give a second chance to humanity.

 

[Rockman X]

Ronin, I agree with JDawg that you make excellent points. However, I want you to go back to the Corel example I mantioned in a previous post. The people of Corel didn't want to do anything with Shinra. They wanted to go on with their peaceful way of life. But some, like Barret, were led to believe that Shinra was the best thing ever to happen. Why is that? Because Shinra lied, the people were misinformed about what the company would do or how that would affect the planet. It's not that the people don't care, they simply didn't know. Ignorance is a great strategy to have people under control.

Corel would be a lesser evil. Yes, they wanted nothing to do with ShinRa. But they were coal miners, they were scarring the planet and using the non-renewable resource of coal as a way of profit. Peaceful people coexisting with the planet would be those who relied on things the planet willingly gives to the people, such as fruits/vegetables, etc. A completely natural existence. Things such as lumber, which are abundant on the surface, would be gray areas. It would be fine to use some trees for the building of little towns, such as Nibelheim. I'm sure the people there needed shelter from cold weather, as they were at the base of those mountains. But once something crosses the line of "needed for survival" to "needed for profit" that's when it stops coexisting with the planet.

Also, remember that the whole idea of the lifestream is that it is cycle. All living things come and return to the lifestream. I think that when the "souls" that come from the lifestream live in this world they become enriched with the experiences in this life and when they return to the planet it allows the planet to continue to exist and in turn create new life, which also becomes enriched. Without this enrichment the planet wouldn't be able to mantain itself. Humang beings, being the most sentient of beings (apart from Nanaki's species) bring the most enrichment into the lifestream. So it's kind of like a symbiotic relation. Life needs the planet, the planet needs life. I'd like to hear your opinion on this. So I believe that the planet would give a second chance to humanity.

I never said the planet stops cycling humanity, I don't think it would do that. I'm just saying the planet either directly (through the lifestream) or indirectly killed humanity (through environmental changes). Essentially, by destroying humanity and then rebirthing it 500 years later or whenever, the planet is hitting "restart."

 

[Summoner Yuna]

Corel would be a lesser evil. Yes, they wanted nothing to do with ShinRa. But they were coal miners, they were scarring the planet and using the non-renewable resource of coal as a way of profit. Peaceful people coexisting with the planet would be those who relied on things the planet willingly gives to the people, such as fruits/vegetables, etc. A completely natural existence. Things such as lumber, which are abundant on the surface, would be gray areas. It would be fine to use some trees for the building of little towns, such as Nibelheim. I'm sure the people there needed shelter from cold weather, as they were at the base of those mountains. But once something crosses the line of "needed for survival" to "needed for profit" that's when it stops coexisting with the planet.



I never said the planet stops cycling humanity, I don't think it would do that. I'm just saying the planet either directly (through the lifestream) or indirectly killed humanity (through environmental changes). Essentially, by destroying humanity and then rebirthing it 500 years later or whenever, the planet is hitting "restart."

Hmmm, I think the people of Corel weren't doing it just for mere profit. They were also doing it for survival. They had coal so they mined that to sell it so they could have food, houses, etc. What did you expect? I don't think that using the planet's resources is a bad thing as long as it isn't overdone or abused. But, like I said, the people of Corel were just doing it to earn a living.
But, I see your point. However, why do you think the planet would hit restart? What's the need of that? I would say that after all the crisis the planet went through, humanity would wisen up a bit. I mean children like Marlene probably learned about it (I bet Barret taught her something) and when she had kids she taught them as well that harming the planet is not beneficial at all. It's all about collective memory in this case, I think.
And I must politely disagree with you that humanity could've been wiped out by weather changes like that. If we see birds and Nanaki, then I believe humans are perfectly capable of leving in that weather. It's not a scorching weather (there's water and plants). I live in a tropical country which is just like that, lol.

 

[Rockman X]

Hmmm, I think the people of Corel weren't doing it just for mere profit. They were also doing it for survival. They had coal so they mined that to sell it so they could have food, houses, etc. What did you expect? I don't think that using the planet's resources is a bad thing as long as it isn't overdone or abused. But, like I said, the people of Corel were just doing it to earn a living.

Take into consideration though, WHY did they settle there? Corel was barren. All that was there was coal, no vegetation or anything. But guess what was there? The only entrance into Gold Saucer, the trolley. Logically, that would mean that Corel was a souvenir town, built to capitalize on the tourists going to Gold Saucer and the coal being needed to power the trolley and such.

But, I see your point. However, why do you think the planet would hit restart? What's the need of that? I would say that after all the crisis the planet went through, humanity would wisen up a bit. I mean children like Marlene probably learned about it (I bet Barret taught her something) and when she had kids she taught them as well that harming the planet is not beneficial at all. It's all about collective memory in this case, I think.

Now you're contradicting yourself. Humanity learning from their mistakes would mean they survived. A collective memory would be similar to instinct or the memories passed through generations of humanity (like in IX), and that would require humanity to be wiped out and subsequently reborn. And it's highly unlikely Marlene survived the devastation that Meteor + Holy wrought on Midgar. Watch the ending again, and note what Cait Sith and Nanaki say. Cait's bleak outlook on what would happen to the slums (where he hid everyone) and Nanaki's comment on forgetting about Midgar and worrying about the entire planet indicate that Midgar was a lost cause and everyone there would be wiped out.

And I must politely disagree with you that humanity could've been wiped out by weather changes like that. If we see birds and Nanaki, then I believe humans are perfectly capable of leving in that weather. It's not a scorching weather (there's water and plants). I live in a tropical country which is just like that, lol.

But that isn't speaking for the rest of the planet, there's no telling what happened elsewhere. If a place like Midgar was able to turn to tropics, what do you think happened to the rest of the globe? Everything would be thrown out of balance. People can survive in tropics, yes. But the drastic shift in climates would likely be too much for many human bodies to handle simply because we aren't as resilient to weather as other animals.

And with that I leave this topic. I've explained my argument as thoroughly as possible, I state something new building on what I said earlier with each post, but you keep going in circles with your argument and state the same things over and over. I don't like debates like that. I like debates but it's much nicer to debate with someone who thoroughly explains and supports their views and doesn't say the same thing repeatedly.

 

[Summoner Yuna]

Take into consideration though, WHY did they settle there? Corel was barren. All that was there was coal, no vegetation or anything. But guess what was there? The only entrance into Gold Saucer, the trolley. Logically, that would mean that Corel was a souvenir town, built to capitalize on the tourists going to Gold Saucer and the coal being needed to power the trolley and such.

Now you're contradicting yourself. Humanity learning from their mistakes would mean they survived. A collective memory would be similar to instinct or the memories passed through generations of humanity (like in IX), and that would require humanity to be wiped out and subsequently reborn. And it's highly unlikely Marlene survived the devastation that Meteor + Holy wrought on Midgar. Watch the ending again, and note what Cait Sith and Nanaki say. Cait's bleak outlook on what would happen to the slums (where he hid everyone) and Nanaki's comment on forgetting about Midgar and worrying about the entire planet indicate that Midgar was a lost cause and everyone there would be wiped out.

But that isn't speaking for the rest of the planet, there's no telling what happened elsewhere. If a place like Midgar was able to turn to tropics, what do you think happened to the rest of the globe? Everything would be thrown out of balance. People can survive in tropics, yes. But the drastic shift in climates would likely be too much for many human bodies to handle simply because we aren't as resilient to weather as other animals.

And with that I leave this topic. I've explained my argument as thoroughly as possible, I state something new building on what I said earlier with each post, but you keep going in circles with your argument and state the same things over and over. I don't like debates like that. I like debates but it's much nicer to debate with someone who thoroughly explains and supports their views and doesn't say the same thing repeatedly.

You're accusing me of saying the same things repeatedly, but I could perfectly say the same thing about you.
I'm not contradicting myself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_memory
You said it yourself collective memory are the memories passed through generations, which also help in turn shape the mindset of the current generation. How could that be possible if everyone who lived on the planet got wiped out and then humanity was reborn? It'd be a tabula rasa and history would have to start again. Where are the generations in which this transmission of knowledge occurs? See my point? I hope I explained myself thoroughly.

 

[JDawg]

Let me weigh in here, maybe as a mediator of sorts...and after watching the ending again (thanks for the link, Ronin), I think I have it figured out.

Cloud realizes that the Promise Land is actually the afterlife. That is very important to the story, and I've read a bunch of arguments here and on other forums in regards to it, but I think it's decided at the beginning of the final CG sequence. Tifa and Cloud talk about it in the crater, after defeating Sephiroth.

Humanity does not get wiped out. Here's why:

--Not only does Midgar 500 years later look exactly like it did when Holy, Meteor, and the Lifestream converge, but Midgar is still there! If Meteor had hit, there would be a crater there. The story was consistant enough to not ignore that very important fact.

--Before Aeris dies, there is a whole sequence with Cloud, where she pretty much says goodbye. Why is that? It's because she knew Sephiroth would kill her there. Without dying, Aeris cannot become a part of the Lifestream, and can not save the day.

--Lifestream's appearance at the end is HUGE. While the ending is not conclusive (for some subtle reason that I believe is lost in translation. It is probably a storytelling vehicle that is popular in Japan, or was at some point) the appearance of the Lifestream is not without purpose. It comes at a time when Holy has failed, and the group fears all is lost. They've already come to grips with the loss of Midgar, but they fear for the planet itself. Bam. Here comes the Lifestream.

--Humans are a symbolic species. From cave paintings to heiroglyphics, to terrorism, we seek out symbols of power, of wealth, of status and pride. I previously thought that humanity as a whole was the enemy, but upon watching it again, that is not the message at all. The enemy of the planet is not humanity, but the lifestyle they lead. At the forefront of this lifestyle is Shin-Ra, which is why they are the unquestionable villians of the game. And what is the symbol of this lifestyle?

Midgar.

The fact that Meteor is headed directly for Midgar is not a coincidence, nor is it simply because Midgar would provide the largest death toll. Meteor hangs above Midgar because it serves to destroy their lifestyle, the way they live that sucks the very life out of the planet.

--Nanaki. He was on the Highwind, and also in the scene 500 years later, which tells us that at the very least the members of AVALANCH did not die in the incident, because Nanaki would have died along with them.

--The message of the game. It is one of warning, telling us that if we continue to destroy the planet, the planet will rebel against us. It is also one of hope, as we see in the very last scene, as life is more bountiful than ever, even growing over the broken hull of Midgar. That last scene shows us that while we are screwing up now, it is never too late to change our ways. Midgar stands as a reminder to all life of what can happen when you are careless with the planet.

And the laughter at the end, as the scene fades to black for the last time, is the final reassurance that humanity is not gone from the planet, just gone from the lifestyle that brought so much choas to the world.

The true enemy was the lifestyle, not humanity. The destruction of Midgar meant the planet won, without having to wipe us off the map.

How's that work for ya??

 

[Rockman X]

Well ya know what? I said I was stepping out this thread but I wanted to keep reading subsequent posts, and here I am replying again *shakes head*

Thank you JDawg for that post. It goes against my theory, but you explained it quite thoroughly and it's just as plausible as mine. I like arguments like yours Also, I thought of something that would support your theory:

We see Aeris at the ending (don't know why that bit wasn't included in the link I gave) and it's likely her doing that caused the planet to use the Lifestream. If it was her doing, then it's likely that she somehow talked the planet into saving people (there's no denying what the WEAPONs were for and why they awoke, the planet did originally intend to get rid of humans).

Sooo while I still like my theory better (it's not cliche to have an ending where humanity dies), yours works just as well JDawg.

 

[Mitsuki]

JDawg, I applaud you. xD That made a lot of sense, especially Red being alive 500 years later when he was clearly on the Highwind with everyone else. Why didn't I see that before? The fact that Midgar is still there is also a strong point...however, it still makes me wonder why it's still in ruins. Surely, there's a reason behind that as well, assuming that humanity do survive in the game.

EDIT: I just watched the ending again. Is it me, or does Midgar seem to be surrounded by vast amount of water...?

 

[JDawg]

The water could be attributed to natural causes. I know it was only 500 years later, but I think the landmass changes meant as a way to show how much the world had changed in the years since the game, albiet a bit enhanced.

however, it still makes me wonder why it's still in ruins. Surely, there's a reason behind that as well, assuming that humanity do survive in the game.

I think the picture of Midgar left in ruins illustrates without words that humanity has left that lifestyle behind.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

The fact that Midgar is still there is also a strong point...however, it still makes me wonder why it's still in ruins.

The ShinRa corporation was gone. They were the only entity that had the money, manpower, organization and technology to rebuild the city of Midgar.

 

[Rockman X]

You're welcome JDawg

Well assuming humanity did survive...yeah, it's likely they did abandon Migdar...OR...they might live in Midgar anyway since they still have their houses and such, but they could have just decided to let nature reclaim it or something. I dunno *shrugs*

As for the water...global warming?

 

[Nilladar]

Ending FFVII

I may be the only one that feels this way but, i felt really confused by the ending cut scene in the orginal game. It just seems to end and im not sure what happens to comet thing.

Spoiler

it shows the thing raining down on midgar and holy trying to stop it, to no avail. Then the life stream comes and does something

which leaves me confused. can anyone explain what the the ending to me better or does anyone feel the same way i do about the ending?

 

[Rydia]

The ending for the most part was left up to interpretation. It was meant to be ambigious so that we could draw our own conclusions based on what we saw in the plot, and after the credits when we saw Red with his children looking at Midgar.

I think Red's grandfather mentioned something about the possibly of holy wiping out human life on the planet? Heck there used to be debates on whether the human race survived at the end of the game. But we all know AC ruined that.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

Yes like Rydia said its up to interprataiton. Buganhagen said at the City of The Ancients that, when summoned, Holy will cleanse the planet and get rid of anything it feels is bad for the planet even maybe Humankind. We see Holy reacting and Meoter is ultimatly destroyed, 500 years later we see Red and his children overlooking the ruins of Midgar but no sign of anything else. Did humankind survive or is the unuse of Midgar a sign that humans learned form their mistakes and have abandoned the city (to avoid using Mako)? Its all up to the player.

I suggest read Aeriths short story, The Maiden Who Travels The Planet. It starts right after her death and followes her journey through the lifestream up to the ending of VII. It explains what happens in the ending a little better as Aerith obviously had something to do with it....

 

[Sephirothalpha]

The ending for the most part was left up to interpretation. It was meant to be ambigious so that we could draw our own conclusions based on what we saw in the plot, and after the credits when we saw Red with his children looking at Midgar.

I think Red's grandfather mentioned something about the possibly of holy wiping out human life on the planet? Heck there used to be debates on whether the human race survived at the end of the game. But we all know AC ruined that.

Not really, doesnt that scene with Red XIII and his children happen after AC?

 

[Oblivion]

Yeah, but what Rydia was trying to say was that anyone could of interpreted the ending as all human life becoming extinct just after the meteor event. But since AC appeared, that theory was kerflunked.

I think that was what Rydia was trying to say...

 

[Kei]

yea the Human race was still alive becoz of AC and DoC showed them after the incident, but I hated them when they showed us "500 Years later" or in AC "498 years later"

 

[Mitsuki]

I think Red's grandfather mentioned something about the possibly of holy wiping out human life on the planet? Heck there used to be debates on whether the human race survived at the end of the game.

Why yes, there was a debate about that. http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/final-fantasy-vii/interpreting-ffvii-s-ending-13284-page2.html

But like Rydia said, it is based on interpretation because players interpret things differently in so many levels. As I have posted in that one thread, I assumed that humanity was extinct because we see Midgar in ruins in the end, but then after much careful deliberation, I finally interpreted it otherwise.

Here's my take on this. I do agree with some of you when you say that it truly would've made a greater impact if humanity was indeed wiped out, because there is a sense of drama and perhaps realism and connection to our own world and how corrupted humanity are.

However, I must say that I like to believe that humanity survived in the end. The planet may have given humanity a second chance. That second chance symbolizes the children – hence, the reason why we hear children’s laughter, birds chirping, water flowing, and other various sounds of nature. That in itself hints that perhaps not all are hopeless and there is the possible revelation that humanity did survive in the end.

I realize that the game’s theme “nothing is what it seems” does hold truth in every possible way. Towards the end, we see Nanaki and his children running up a hill and Midgar is revealed. Destruction. That was the first thing that came to my mind – that humanity was wiped out because there is no sign of them. Indeed, why would it still be in ruins (500 years later) unless of course there is no one left to rebuild the place. "Hopeless" then comes to mind.

I was sure then that the end was just that. But then the credits rolled and the Final Fantasy VII logo appeared. Why would the creators bother with the weird noises we hear? That’s because they are hinting that nothing is what it seems. In the surface, we see what they would like us to see. But if we look deeper, then maybe we'll see the subtleness of the game’s ending.

Now, as to how humanity may have survived in the end, who knows? Perhaps humanity did vanish, but we cannot dismiss the fact that there may have likely been a second chance (like some of you mentioned, “reborn”), due to the children’s laughter in the very end. I’d like to think that was the case anyway. In every chaos that humanity encounter, one have to be optimistic about certain things sometimes. Perhaps that is what the game is telling us. Those are my viewpoints anyway.