Is it racist to oppose gypsies?

[Marquis of Granby]

the only time we ever see or hear about them in the media is when they've done something wrong. ripping people off, not paying taxes, destroying land that they don't own, illegally occupying an area and costing local councils a pretty penny in legal action which either goes on and on and on or leads to the gypsies being removed from the land by police.

other than their claim to an ancestral heritage based somewhere that isn't britain (they can't seem to decide where it is they think they've come from) the only thing that would place them in a separate ethnic group is the fact that they don't want to settle in one particular place - they want to move around. so when they do settle ie start living in a house somewhere and effectively become on-grid citizens their claim to a separate ethnicity is false. which is neither here nor there because they are not a race. unless you want to define racism as the discrimination of someone based on their race, ethnicity, which religion they ascribe themselves to etc in which case you might as well scrap concepts like sexism, ageism, homophobia and just call it all racism. which would be stupid, of course.

so is it a terrible sin (aka racist) to oppose the permanent settling of gypsies on a legal plot of land or in a house, or camping (i'm not sure what they call it) illegally on land which they know they shouldn't be on? is it so wrong to criticise an ethnic group who, for the most part, don't contribute anything to our society, who choose to live outside of our society but expect to settle where they like, be allowed to damage land and property that doesn't belong to them all while trying to reap the benefits of the society they are so desperate to shun?

i think i've made a good case for being able to criticise an ethnic group (who are not a separate race anyway) without it being called racist. do you think they are a separate race? do you think that racism isn't just about race? do you think the destruction of land and property is really a cultural trait that should be respected? am i just jealous that i don't get to travel the country in a caravan and set up camp where ever i feel like it? are you a gypsy or a member of the "travelling community"? do you like gadjits like banana, carrot or cucumber?

now you

 

[Lirael]

First of all, you pointed out that we only hear about them when they have done wrong. It is not fair to assume that all gypsy travellers commit crimes such as vandalism or theft. =/ We should not penalise an entire group because of the actions of a selection of people from this group.

Secondly, they often can decide where they are from, but there are different ethnic groups. These include Irish Travellers, who originate from Ireland, and Romani, who have decended from a group who migrated from the Indian Subcontinent.

I personally believe that we should become more tolerant of these groups. Many do work, in some way, to earn money. They are often self-employed; some, for example, breed and trade greyhounds, lurchers and horses. They do not simply feed off the hard work of others. =/ Some bring us carnivals and fairs. They provide a service to different people as they travel, sometimes earning a lot of money; sometimes earning very little, if anything at all.

When it comes to settling down for a period of time... In the UK, sites exist and a large number of Irish Travellers settle in these, building their own small community. However, some feel that there is not enough space to hold the number of people, hence why they move onto private and public land. Under current law, I don't think the local authorities have to provide a space for travellers... I personally feel that they should! These people deserve to be protected; some of them feel more vulnerable then the people who reprimand them!

I view community, empathy and tolerance as very important. Obviously, this does have to work both ways - they can be negative about us - but if we reject them and accuse them, we are not doing anything to make the situation better. :/ I think we should strive for unity. Do not depend on stereotypes and steer away from prejudice when you speak about other members of the community. Although we are different, we are all part of a global community!

 

[Big Casino]

i cant stand the gyppos and i dont really care if people find that offensive or not.

They were just in the paper the other day for their usual shite. They move to an area pillage and steal what they can from the industrial estates then they move on and leave a massive mess where they were. They leave all theyre litter, empty propane bottles, old clothes, food wrappers and bottles, basically everything. They drive about living tax free and just leaving a fucking mess. I really dont see why we should be MORE tolerant. The council are already way too tolerant in my opinion. Theyre left to do as they please and its a disgrace. If i had my own way i would make sure they were moved on from illegal camp sites and forced to go to certain places where theyre allowed to stay. Id make sure that before moving on they had to dispose of all the shit they leave behind or hammer the community with a big fine. Ideally id kick them out the country to be honest.
These people are left do whatever the fuck they want whilst hard working people are screwed over. Ive no love for the gyppos at all.

 

[Squid]

I don't see anything wrong with disliking and opposing a culture. I don't think it's racist either. The world 'racist' is thrown around so easily these days. If you go to another country you are expected to follow their rules (eg, an arabic country) but if they come here they happily wear what they want and act how they want etc. I don't see why we can't not like that without being called a racist.

I don't think it's racist to oppose gypsies. They don't contribute to anything and just make a mess of everything. I don't think it's wrong to dislike any race so long as you're not actually nasty towards the people.

Anyway. That's just my dumbed-down opinion

 

[Marquis of Granby]

First of all, you pointed out that we only hear about them when they have done wrong. It is not fair to assume that all gypsy travellers commit crimes such as vandalism or theft. =/ We should not penalise an entire group because of the actions of a selection of people from this group.

Secondly, they often can decide where they are from, but there are different ethnic groups. These include Irish Travellers, who originate from Ireland, and Romani, who have decended from a group who migrated from the Indian Subcontinent.

I personally believe that we should become more tolerant of these groups. Many do work, in some way, to earn money. They are often self-employed; some, for example, breed and trade greyhounds, lurchers and horses. They do not simply feed off the hard work of others. =/ Some bring us carnivals and fairs. They provide a service to different people as they travel, sometimes earning a lot of money; sometimes earning very little, if anything at all.

When it comes to settling down for a period of time... In the UK, sites exist and a large number of Irish Travellers settle in these, building their own small community. However, some feel that there is not enough space to hold the number of people, hence why they move onto private and public land. Under current law, I don't think the local authorities have to provide a space for travellers... I personally feel that they should! These people deserve to be protected; some of them feel more vulnerable then the people who reprimand them!

I view community, empathy and tolerance as very important. Obviously, this does have to work both ways - they can be negative about us - but if we reject them and accuse them, we are not doing anything to make the situation better. :/ I think we should strive for unity. Do not depend on stereotypes and steer away from prejudice when you speak about other members of the community. Although we are different, we are all part of a global community!

i'm all for tolerance and i wouldnt want to come across as though i only know what the media tells me. we had a park right next to our school that was totally destroyed on a yearly basis by "the travelling community". a second generation settled gypsy family live over the back of me and they deal drugs and have the place looking like a tip. her mother was a prostitute. my mum was brought up living in an area full of settled gypsies and they stole things and had the area in a complete mess. and again they contribute very little to our society. they are not part of it because they choose to exclude themselves but they want the benefit of having lands where they can camp up when it pleases them despite the fact that they camp up where ever they want anyway whether it's legal or not.

you didn't say whether or not you think it's racist. can you clarify?

ps: my grandma on my dad's side was first generation settled traveller or "trevler" as they called themselves. she was a lovely woman from what i remember. she never sold me drugs, she was clean and tidy. therefore i do not hate the gypsies.

 

[Donald Trump]

I don't see anything wrong with disliking and opposing a culture. I don't think it's racist either.

Actually that's more or less the definition of Racism. Disliking a certain race or ethnicity or culture in the case of Gypsies for no reason other than their 'otherness'.

If you go to another country you are expected to follow their rules (eg, an arabic country) but if they come here they happily wear what they want and act how they want etc. I don't see why we can't not like that without being called a racist.

If you do go to a foreign country you have to follow their rules otherwise you will be deported or sent to jail. It's like when drug mules stop in Indonesia on their way to australia or New Zealand and they start crying because they've been sentenced to death. They always complain about how unfair it is, the cunts. The reason people from other countries can come to australia or New Zealand or England etc and wear what they like is because we have no laws about what you can and cannot wear, except for laws about gang patches or Nazi clothing or clothes designed to cause offence. During the Cronulla rac riots some guy wore a T-shirt that said 'Mohammed is a camel raping faggot', which was probably legal. Immigrants or tourists have just as much right to wear a Burqa in our countries as you do to wear a mini-skirt etc. I think your complaint was racist, but perhaps that was just the way you phrased it.

To answer James' original question, I think it's a grey area between racism and not racism. If you are opposed to a group of Gypsies that you have no experience of settling in an area near you, but you are opposed because you have first hand experience (ie not my big fat Gypsy wedding), then I think it is slightly racist. I think it would be okay to be weary, but I think we should all be tolerant and follow the Blakstang Ideology and give them the benefit of the doubt.
If it was the same Gypsies who trashed the field next to your school and you were opposed to them I think that would not be racist as you would be basing your judgement on their prior behaviour, rather than prejudice.

 

[Squid]

But I do not hate the people or go out of my way to hate on the people and make them feel bad. I just silently do not enjoy or like their culture but I would not expect to go to their country and not have to follow their rules. I don't understand why it is bad to dislike a way a race does certain things.

Maybe that is racist but I don't think it should be I suppose.

Though I didn't actually realise Gypsies were a race tbh I thought there were Gypsies in lots of different countries?

 

[Donald Trump]

But I do not hate the people or go out of my way to hate on the people and make them feel bad.

You don't have to have Swastika tattoos and go around lynching people to be a racist.

I don't understand why it is bad to dislike a way a race does certain things.

I don't think it's racist to dislike how one race or culture does one thing, for example how women are treated in Middle Eastern countries, or Japan and their penchant for murdering whales. However, it's different to dislike them because they do that. Because some men, perhaps most men don't treat women badly and not all Japanese people support Whaling. You should also bear in mind the idea of moral and or cultural relativism. Which is were you think 'we do not hunt Whales, we are morally correct, you do hunt Whales therefore you are wrong'. There is no objective 'right' morality so we shouldn't judge people by our own standards.

Though I didn't actually realise Gypsies were a race tbh I thought there were Gypsies in lots of different countries?

They're a distinct ethnic group. Gypsies is probably an offensive term, they're actually called Romani, and there are Romani in many different countries, as you would expect of a group of people that travel a lot. There's also lots of Irish people in different countries, the same as there lots of English, Scottish etc.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

To answer James' original question, I think it's a grey area between racism and not racism. If you are opposed to a group of Gypsies that you have no experience of settling in an area near you, but you are opposed because you have first hand experience (ie not my big fat Gypsy wedding), then I think it is slightly racist. I think it would be okay to be weary, but I think we should all be tolerant and follow the Blakstang Ideology and give them the benefit of the doubt.
If it was the same Gypsies who trashed the field next to your school and you were opposed to them I think that would not be racist as you would be basing your judgement on their prior behaviour, rather than prejudice.

so you take the view that it can be racist? i don't think it's right to judge an entire group of people based on a few experiences with people who are part of that group, but i don't necessarily think that it should be called racist. it's definitely discrimination of some sort. if you were to say you dislike asians because they are asian and you just dont like asians then i think that is racist.

those who consider themselves part of the travelling community (at least in britain) are caucasian and the only thing that puts them in a separate ethnic group is the fact that they like to travel. they can certainly claim that their tradition originated in india but that doesn't make them indian anymore than it makes me african.

 

[Donald Trump]

The Romani ethnic group did start off in India but moved to Europe. I would say that they're European rather than Asian. However, it is entirely possible for Europeans to be racist to other Europeans, Hitler vs the Slaves etc. I'm not sure if Romanis consider themselves Caucasian or not but it is possible for members of the same race to hold 'racist' views towards people of a different ethnicity. There's probably some Scots who do really hate England rather than the ABE thing whenever there's a world cup or a Euros or whatever. I would consider that prejudiced dislike racism though both are Caucasians.
I guess it comes down to whether you think they are a seperate Ethnic group from you. I would say that they are. Even if you consider them to be just as White and Scotch as you are, you've all ready said that you think it's wrong to dislike them based solely on the fact that they are Gypsies.

 

[The Welsh Paddy]

I think if this was a matter of disliking gypsies because they come from Ireland, or originate from India, or whatever, then I think that would be racism. If you dislike a group of people due to their actions, however, then that is not racism because it has nothing to do with their ethnicity.

 

[Big Casino]

She isnt being racist Hal. Stop looking for an argument where there isnt one. Your not in any position to judge her on that topic

What Jim said is true. The gyppos here are all white and all mostly born of this country. Theyre not liked due to their actions like littering etc. Everyone knows that they just leave a fucking mess where they left off. Its not racist to say that these people litter. Your just stating a fact because that IS what they do. You look at any spot Gyppos have been and its guaranteed to be a mess. Doesnt matter a fuck what colour or what country they originated from. They can have Scottish blood all the way back to the wars but i still wont like them for the reasons i said in my last post. Minket bastards who leave everything at their arse. Im sure other than that their just smashing people. Or not. I wouldnt know because theyre not very approachable people. I know that first hand.

 

[Will Graham]

I do not think relativism is a very good argument for excusing what some people do. Look at the world before civil rights or the abolition of slavery. It would be unfair to call those people evil as it was socially acceptable in those time to own slaves, but that does not mean slavery is right. All cultures have differing moralities both internally and externally, but saying something is ok in another culture therefore you shouldn't judge it on your own standards is pointless.

 

[Mr. Zombie]

Technically it's not racism, it's just another form of prejudice, but it's not good anyway.

To be racist you would need to identify them as a separate race from humans, and you're not.

To me the mistake here is generalizing you know? Every culture has bad elements, every one of them, and Gypsies aren't different. It's like saying all americans like to plunder Middle Eastern countries and call it a "war". It's like saying all germans are Nazis. It's like saying all jews are Zionists. I would call it stupidity rather than "racism".

 

[asm]

I think if this was a matter of disliking gypsies because they come from Ireland, or originate from India, or whatever, then I think that would be racism. If you dislike a group of people due to their actions, however, then that is not racism because it has nothing to do with their ethnicity.

This is ridiculous.

If you are attributing certain traits or actions to a group of people, damn right it is racism. You might as well say "well I hate black people because they steal bikes and eat all the watermelons but I am not racist because stealing bikes or eating water melons have nothing to do with their ethnicity". It becomes racist the moment you stereotype like this. You are assigning negative traits to a group, solely because of their ethnicity. Of course if a group is formed on the base of criminal activity, it is different.


Now, to me when people start sentences with words like "I'm not racist but..." and such, it tells me they're most likely racist to a degree against some groups of ethnicities, but they're socially conditioned to think racism is bad. This is why they justify to themselves that they're not racist, even though ...well, they are.

I think the problem here isn't are some of you people racist, it's a problem where you can't stand being racist.


PS. Nevertheless, I guess this strays off topic for a bit as the OP doesn't seem to be talking about actual romanis, but the irish "spin-off" of caravan life. Regardless, it's pretty funny for me that every day people around here (Europe) denounce racism but feel it's appropriate to down right despise romanis.

 

[Dionysos]

As people have said in this thread, there are Romani and then there are the ‘Travellers’.

Travellers often litter all over the place and are sometimes relatively vulgar people. These seem to have more serious issues with the local councils, and they tend to scare people more. In my experience in my area the council decided to build turf mounds at the roadside to stop Travellers from parking there. And there were some I met that seemed to park their caravans on the side of a public path right next door to my school, and they shouted and swore at everyone, littered, and could not control their bulldog at all. That is the bad image, and the kind of thing that irritates people.

However, Romani gypsies are not always as bad. Certainly not in my personal encountering of them. It depends on the individual groups, as with any group, but they aren’t always bad. We often have a group of traditional Romani in my area. They park their traditional painted wooden wagons and their horses at the side of the roads, or sometimes on a round-about. When they leave they don’t leave litter at all. On the contrary, they seem very respectful. I’ve never spoken to any personally, but they seem ok.

It was with a group like this that my great uncle went to live with. I never met him, but my Mom told me that one day he decided he had enough of our style of life and went to live with the Romani gypsies.

It’s no wonder that people are racially confused about what a gypsy is. Interestingly, the term Gypsy itself is a word which stems from a mistaken belief that the Gypsies originated from Egypt. In addition, people today use the term ‘Gypsy’ to refer to a very wide selection of people who are not connected to each other in any way whatsoever. Anyone living in a caravan at the side of a road or in a field can be labelled a gypsy. It’s unfair that all Romani are swept up by these generalisations also.

That said, I’m not sure if I would call it racist to oppose gypsies, or perhaps not conscious racism. My reasoning is that people don’t often consider that they are criticising a particular race at all. Most of the time people have the Travellers in mind (which may have been Irish to start with – I know nothing about them – but now are pretty much anyone anywhere – a lifestyle more than anything). Fewer people consider the Romani, I think. If they did, then it would be a clearer form of racism. People only really have a problem with people who litter, shout vulgar abuse, are rude, have no regard for other people, and have lots of battles with local councils, etc. To be against that sort of behaviour is not racism, but to assume that all 'gypsies', including the Romani, behave this way, perhaps is.

In short, perhaps we'd do well to minimise our racism if we reduced our use of the word 'gypsy' itself (though I'm not one of these political correctness advocates), and differentiate between various groups of people, but still retain the right to be against those groups which cause genuine problems for people.

 

[The Welsh Paddy]

This is ridiculous.

If you are attributing certain traits or actions to a group of people, damn right it is racism. You might as well say "well I hate black people because they steal bikes and eat all the watermelons but I am not racist because stealing bikes or eating water melons have nothing to do with their ethnicity". It becomes racist the moment you stereotype like this. You are assigning negative traits to a group, solely because of their ethnicity. Of course if a group is formed on the base of criminal activity, it is different.


Now, to me when people start sentences with words like "I'm not racist but..." and such, it tells me they're most likely racist to a degree against some groups of ethnicities, but they're socially conditioned to think racism is bad. This is why they justify to themselves that they're not racist, even though ...well, they are.

I think the problem here isn't are some of you people racist, it's a problem where you can't stand being racist.

I think you kinda misunderstood me.

For example, if I saw someone spitting on the floor, or littering, I would oppose them. And I would oppose them for said actions. It wouldn't be a case of "Oh, I hate black people because they steal bikes and eat all the watermelons" (Which, by the way, is a racist thing to say.) It's a case of "I hate people who steal bikes." Whether they're black or white doesn't have anything to do with the reasons I dislike them.

 

[Harlequin]

I think "opposing" gypsies is discrimination but I don't think it's racism. I don't think they're a race at all to me it's a culture and lifestyle. Opposing certain well documented traveler activity is another thing entirely; I oppose anyone settling on land that doesn't belong to them and I oppose anyone who doesn't pay road tax using roads to drive or ride horseback on. Roads belong to the taxpayer contribute or buy a bike.

 

[Ultimaja]

I've seen this thread on here but never bothered to open it up.

And... damn.
I'll make it short so that there is little in the way of understanding.

Racial paranoia bleeds all over society today. No matter the argument, one can simply go and say 'that's generalizing', therefore rendering the aspect of guilt by association null.
White liberal guilt is produced precisely by guilt by association. It branches from the exact same trunk.

There is a difference between racism and simply trying to make something seem racist or excusing accountability. When an organization does something wrong, the organization is held responsible, but with race that seems to only want to be applied to white people.

Just something to think about.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I don't think it's racism because it's not a race that's being disliked, it's behaviour. It's what they do and how they do it that people dislike, not who they are or what they look like. People have mentioned the Romani, and to dislike them purely because they are Romani would be racism, because they are a race. But disliking people who travel around the country doing whatever they want, never paying taxes but expecting people to clean up their mess after them is not racism, because it is not one race who does this, and it's a behaviour that people are disliking, not any race or identity.