NRA calls for armed school guards

[Harlequin]

I know there's been a few recent threads on the Connecticut shootings that have been closed but the story and debate just keeps growing and now the NRA have broken their silence so I think it's worth bringing it back up plz dnt close, infract n ban tyvm

Here's a source on the story: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/12/22/uk-usa-shooting-connecticut-idUKBRE8BK15D20121222

Wow that's a long link.

Anyway, the Chief Executive of the NRA has come out and suggested Armed Police guards should be posted in every school in the US by January 2013. Yes you've read correct, that's Armed Police guards in every school in the US within a month's time. Apparently because schools being a gun free zone makes them more vulnerable than say, Airports.

He then goes on to imply the next mass murderer is already plotting a slaughter and that violent video games and the media have contributed to these atrocities.

-

I don't even know where to start. If US citizens really believe the remedy for all these atrocities is to have an armed guard in every school something has gone very very wrong with American society in my estimation. I've heard a lot about improving background and mental checks on purchasers but I think the real question Americans have to ask themselves is: why do they feel the overwhelming need to arm themselves? Why is owning a gun such a prominent symbol of American freedom?

It defies belief that the NRA have released a statement (after affording themselves a week to prepare it) advocating the presence of guns in schools. Surely the solution lies in disarmament of the population as opposed to a militarization of schools?

I'm not even going to go into the violent video games debate. There may be that influence but violent video games are everywhere whereas this type of crime is commonplace to the point where it's (dare I say) an accepted tragedy in the US.

If someone with a gun snaps and decides on shooting someone, someone is getting shot. Why does the everyday citizen need to be subjected to this very real possibility? Because a group of people with a morbid fascination on guns don't want to give them up?

 

[Linnaete]

Because a fully armed society with this climate of utmost fear sounds awesome. Let's all be Rambo and get ready for a shootout at school gates. No wait, no it doesn't. It sounds like hell. I wouldn't want to be part of a society that resorts to doing that. What next? Let's have armed guards outside every bit of public property? Deranged nutter.

And in terms of practicality, this is bullshit anyway when you factor into account how much this will cost, the need to do thorough checks and assessments for each and every prospective armed school guard - how many that would be - and, omg! What if some of these "good guys" with guns turn out to be nutters? With guns? What if they're fucking useless because they'll be the first target for prospective shooters? Oh fuck, haven't thought this through, have we?

The NRA. Let's blame everyone but ourselves. Ah yeds.

 

[Shinra Executive]

He then goes on to imply the next mass murderer is already plotting a slaughter and that violent video games and the media have contributed to these atrocities.

Because it's not in their best interest to publicly call out inept parents.

That's the reality of it. You and many, many others like you try to find that little tiny window where you blame inanimate objects. The fact that you and others can't see what the NRA is really doing is amusing.

They are calling for guards and blaming media to appease ignorance, which unfortunately, manifests in half of society. Telling parents that they fail at parenting doesn't change a thing, and citizens shouldn't have to do away with their protection because of that.

I don't even know where to start. If US citizens really believe the remedy for all these atrocities is to have an armed guard in every school something has gone very very wrong with American society in my estimation. I've heard a lot about improving background and mental checks on purchasers but I think the real question Americans have to ask themselves is: why do they feel the overwhelming need to arm themselves? Why is owning a gun such a prominent symbol of American freedom?

Guns guarantee freedom. Humans are an adversarial species, and disarming citizens the world over will just lead to corruption by the ones with the guns. You all keep talking about this gun business as if it is more then a short-term welfare that will eventually go ballistic. There will be revolution, and the guns will just go back to the citizens.

Unlike you, I know exactly where to start. If people really believe the remedy for all the atrocities is to disarm citizens, then this world really is doomed.

 

[~Griever~]

I believe that the 2nd Amendment was originally written into the Constitution by the founding fathers as the last defence again tyranny. This makes sense considering the events of the era in which the constitution was written. I think Thomas Jefferson said something about the beauty of the second amendment being that it will not be used until 'they' try to take it from you. Though he also said that it is not enough for the citizens of a nation to be given rights, but they must be educated to a level where they understand why they have certain rights etc.

As it was originally intended I think the 2nd Amendment is a sound idea, providing you have a population of healthy, educated people with a thorough knowledge of free speech/right to liberty etc. Obviously that is not the case in the US right now. Nowhere near.

Also, doesn't Canada have just as many guns as the US, but far less shootings? Maybe it's a difference in population as to why the shootings are far less? Or maybe it's a culture issue. You see I don't see guns as the issue myself. I see a society of sick individuals, mostly through no fault of their own. The very culture itself is distorted and obviously having a declining society comprised of citizens armed to the teeth doesn't bode well. Most people in America get taught that they are allowed to own firearms, but are they taught why they are allowed to have firearms and why their founding fathers wrote that right into the constitution?

I live in the UK myself so guns are completely banned here and yet there are still a lot of shootings in my area and many many more stabbings. At least 5 people from my year at school are now dead due to gang related stabbings etc. In the end it seems that right now America has been pushed to breaking point with these mass shootings whether they are contrived or not and something is going to change soon. What seems to be a scary issue for you American folks is just how does the government plan on taking weapons away from "freedom loving American Patriots?"

 

[Big Casino]

If im not mistaken wasnt an ex NRA member responsible for a mass murder? I watched a documentary which was about a highschool shooting and im sure the person was ex NRA. During the interview they talked with some of these guys. One of them slept with a 44. magnum under his pillow, im not kidding and his weapons cupboard could start a war. He lived in a small town where crime was low, he didnt need all these guns let alone one under his pillow. Some of these NRA members are just plain up nutters. Theyre looking for the fight to come to them. Like Olivia said lets all play John Rambo. Anyway, a bit off topic there.

You cant eliminate crime but when you look at the sheer number of murders caused by firearms in comparison to a country like Canada where firearms are also legal....the difference is staggering. In 2010 the US had over 12000 murders caused by guns and Canada had around the 150 mark. Countries in Europe where you cant legally own a gun unless your a farmer, game keeper whatever theyre numbers almost all below 50. Having armed police officers in schools is a ridiculous idea in my head. There isnt enough police officers on the street as it is let alone to have some stationed in EVERY school. And seeing armed police everywhere...youd feel like you were in a military base. Not on yer way to art or cooking class.
The fact these massacres are becoming so common and tbh theyre not even shocking or surprising anymore. Yeah theyre tragic but they dont shock me. This seems to happen in America all the time and the feeling from the outside world especially in countries where firearms aren't being sold in shops on every street block is gunna be...it happened again..no surprise there what do they expect?

How about a law that finally puts an end to guns being so available? Like i said you cant stop crime but there IS ways you can counteract and help prevent it and the banning of guns to all but the people in jobs which genuinely require them is going to make a HUGE difference. I dont like the self defence argument some say because what counts as self defence. If someone punches you in the face does that make it ok to shoot them in self defence? Does it fucking hell. Not im my eyes it doesnt and not in the mind of anyone with any rational sense. And if guns were banned you wouldnt need to ever pull a gun on someone pulling a gun on you as the chance of that happening is going to be much smaller.
Adding more guns to stop guns = even more guns and i thought you wanted to stop shootings. Wanna stop shootings stop giving everyone guns. Really it is that simple. And if people dont like it then i would say fuck you. Its not worth innocent children's lives. So youl just have to live without it.

That is my 2 pence on the topic.

 

[Shinra Executive]

Interesting point: The teachers aren't even forced to do so. They do it because they realize the prospect of protecting children, not disarming a nation of citizens. 1st world values have been made sorry by the liberal agenda.

 

[greenyxi]

NRA's decision to add heavy security to schools folks. Get on top of that topic for love and peace to spread across the forum!

(WARNING 1)

 

[Linnaete]

Sorry, but I just can't help but roll my eyes at the need to have a fucking assault weapon or any kind of semi-automatic anywhere in ordinary day-to-day society, let alone in a school. Well, unless you're a hyper-paranoid military state. In fact, why stop there? Get some barbed wire. Get some minefields too.

And as I recall, having armed guards didn't stop Columbine from happening. Didn't Virginia Tech have armed guards too? Anyway, whatever. The NRA aren't worth scrutinising because their very existence is based on an abject fetishisation of guns and aren't interested in any meaningful contribution to the debate while gun sales continue to remain healthy in the name of freedom and whatever.

 

[The Witch]

and it begins! I am not shocked by this at all. I said that by the summer of 2013 there will either be armed "police/guards" at schools/public places or that the government will only allow law officials/military to have guns.

I love the smell of martial law in the evening!

Now I don't need to travel back in time to Nazi Germany! all in due time!

At least it will make more jobs! more police/guards = more people being paid for their totalitarian work!

EDIT: I should say I doubt this recent event will be why any armed forces are put in place. However, this is definitely getting the ball moving. Their "call" won't do much. :/

 

[Shinra Executive]

Sorry, but I just can't help but roll my eyes at the need to have a fucking assault weapon or any kind of semi-automatic anywhere in ordinary day-to-day society, let alone in a school. Well, unless you're a hyper-paranoid military state. In fact, why stop there? Get some barbed wire. Get some minefields too.

Ridicule the best solution and come up with a shitty one that involves me getting killed in a robbery whilst hiding in the closet waiting for guns to be delivered. A place with a 1000 people in it, minors no less, should have a degree of formidable security anyway.
The rest of the world doesn't bullshit themselves- you have a vested interest in protecting children, then do it. Follow Israel's example, whom has found a workable solution. don't sit there and try to strip everyone of guns. It's time to move to the grown ups table.

 

[Paddy McGee]

I'm personally not sure about the addition of security in the form of armed guards to schools in the US would really help. Of course, the students probably would feel much safer, and then there is a threat that a guard could lose it his/herself.

The question that begs on my mind is why would a person have such a high powered rifle as an AR-15 in their possession anyway? It's a military grade weapon, and to me, it doesn't seem to be an average hunting rifle. I know that weapons are toned down for civilian usage(such as reducing clip sizes) but weapons of this grade shouldn't really be on sale.

A good idea would be to have an increased check on backgrounds of weapon purchasers. This could help pick up an any sort of mental illness, in my opinion. But, that being said, people can flick and change in a very quick time and a person who- at the time of issuing- is of sound mind could develop something later.

I'm not completely sure if this is done already so feel free to correct me, but I believe that legal gun owners should be checked up on in a monthly basis by a doctor to maintain if they are still of sound mind to own said weaponry. Obviously, this is easier said than done, but I think it should be introduced.

Back onto the topic: Adding Armed guards won't help schools much. If a person wants to commit an act, are of unsound mind and have a devotion to their apparent cause, they will probably get some sort of success from it. Even if guns are completely regulated, said person may find a way to gain access to illegal weaponry, or could go down another route of an act like this. I believe one of the best ways to improve a situation like this would be to introduce some sort of mental health scheme into the society so that people get checked on some sort of regular basis. Again, easier said than done, but I believe it would help somewhat to put a halt to acts like this.

So basically, my opinion is:

The main problem isn't the lack of security, but the mental health issues which usually lead to this type of act. While the active availability to guns is related to acts, I feel that a persons mental issues has much more blame for these. Perhaps a mental health checking scheme could help?

 

[Shinra Executive]

I'm personally not sure about the addition of security in the form of armed guards to schools in the US would really help. Of course, the students probably would feel much safer, and then there is a threat that a guard could lose it his/herself.

Anti-gun advocates have no problem giving all the arms to security and police, and now there's a problem that a security guard is going to lose themselves?

And

Having armed guards would definitely put a decline in this school shooting tradition. How often do you think a person kills somebody in front of a cop? A person is a lot less inclined to start busting off anything when there is a cop in plain sight. That is why they put 'dummy cars' in front of gas stations- it's a psychological thing, for one, and makes the person second guess robbing the place.
In the same way, armed guards in schools are going to have the same effect. In fact, there would be a decline in bullying and fights as well. School would generally be a more kosher place.
In fact, social dilemmas within schools is what causes most school shootings.

 

[Ethics]

Most of the time, most companies are very specific in whom they hire for security (particularly armed security) and are more thorough than their research into typical employees. So, they sort of already do have that, Meteora.

In some aspects, I kind of agree with this. It's just a matter of weeding the unstable out with the stable. It's also worth mentioning that comparing attacks in most countries to the US isn't accurate considering the massive differences in population, area and diversity. That isn't to say I think we should arm everyone and that solves everything but more so to say that there needs to be a wall, something schools don't have. Airports have increased security, so comparing those to schools also falls to the side, schools typically can't defend themselves and are easy targets. Airports, you guessed it, are not.

Shinra Exec, you can't compare military and police with security guards. SG's typically have little to no training, sometimes you get vets from the other "real" fields but it doesn't happen enough to make a feasible difference in security. So yes, most security guards could very well lose it or have already lost it, must like the military tries to weed out the unstable people.

 

[AddleBoy]

Don't get the wrong idea, Shinra. Everyone wants to protect the children. People just have different ideas on how they would do that.

Why doesn't Israel have USA-style school massacres? They probably have other things to worry about. You could also take a look at the type of place Israel tends to be. It has a history of wars because of the religious value that is part of its territory. The place can effectively be called a war zone, so it's no wonder why that woman is carrying a weapon. However, you're assuming that carrying that assault rifle is solving the situation, and that those students are "safe" when anything could happen.

The main difference between Israel and the United States is that Israel is a country that is almost constantly at war, and that war often happens within its borders. But, who are we at war with in the United States? Ourselves?

I would like to clarify: If we had teachers armed and trained with firearms or if we had armed police at every school, it probably would stop a lone gunman from committing a massacre like this from happening at schools. However, you have to look at this realistically. How much would it cost to fund this sort of thing? You would have to provide the guns, and ammunition. Plus, you would have to pay for their training because merely having a gun doesn't amount to much, in my book. There is also the point that these types of shootings don't take play only at schools. They happen in other public places such as theaters and schools, but what are we supposed to do in these situations? If we were to take the NRA's approach, we would have to arm and train every citizen. This would only be a temporary solution that doesn't solve anything in the long run.

As Lewis points out, there are many other first world countries with or without the right to carry firearms that don't seem to have our problem. Why is that?

Guns have become so ingrained in American culture that many people can't imagine that there would ever be a point where they wouldn't have the right to carry one. I think that if they passed an amendment banning people's right to carry guns, it would be almost a similar situation as when they banned alcohol in the 1920s. People would probably just buy up all the guns they could before the law would be officially passed. Also, if they wanted to take all the guns away from citizens, they would have to search everyone's houses just to make sure no one has a gun.

What I think people don't see is that guns - whether it's that there are too many or the lack thereof - are only part of the problem.

 

[The Master]

If nothing is going to be done about gun laws, and/or who can/cannot own a gun, then I don't see anything wrong with increased security... If there is a better idea I would like to hear it...

EDIT: Sorry for such a short post but right now I am unswayed as to why this is even up for debate...

It takes just one person to ruin it for everyone else. Unfortunately it took until a man gunned down 20 children for us to see that this should have been done a long time ago...

 

[Paddy McGee]

Anti-gun advocates have no problem giving all the arms to security and police, and now there's a problem that a security guard is going to lose themselves?

And

Having armed guards would definitely put a decline in this school shooting tradition. How often do you think a person kills somebody in front of a cop? A person is a lot less inclined to start busting off anything when there is a cop in plain sight. That is why they put 'dummy cars' in front of gas stations- it's a psychological thing, for one, and makes the person second guess robbing the place.
In the same way, armed guards in schools are going to have the same effect. In fact, there would be a decline in bullying and fights as well. School would generally be a more kosher place.
In fact, social dilemmas within schools is what causes most school shootings.

There's always the potential something like that COULD happen. A guard could snap. I just mentioned that fact.


Okay, you have me there. My first statement is under judging the usage of security as a deterrent.

But, we've all seen the paranoia which the usage of deterrents can lead to, and the "Process of escalation" which can develop with this so having guards stationed like so might not aid the situation. Bank robberies still happen, even though they have guards and usually bank robbers will probably have fairly high grade equipment, so there's the escalation. What happens when somebody partaking in this has better equipment than the police? It'll be much harder to take care of and control and once something fails as a deterrent, the fear it excludes will be tarnished.


Pockets :
They do? I wasn't sure, but I guessed that security companies wouldn't just randomly hire of the street, so thanks for confirming.

 

[CassinoChips]

Also, doesn't Canada have just as many guns as the US, but far less shootings? Maybe it's a difference in population as to why the shootings are far less? Or maybe it's a culture issue.

Canada has about 15 million guns. US has 310 million. Even scaled for population, there are still (literally) twice as many guns in the US as there are in Canada.

Interesting point: The teachers aren't even forced to do so. They do it because they realize the prospect of protecting children, not disarming a nation of citizens. 1st world values have been made sorry by the liberal agenda.

http://messiahsmandate.org/are-israeli-teachers-armed/

You don't want to arm teachers. Trust me. And virtually every high school and middle school in the United States has an armed Security Resource Officer on campus that is a fully vetted and trained Sheriff's deputy or police officer. Didn't help at Columbine. Didn't help in Paducah. Didn't help in Cleveland. This myth that a teacher who has never fired a gun in a armed intruder situation will somehow become Dirty Harry when an assault rifle is pointed at them is amazingly stupid. Trained officers often shoot innocent bystanders in crossfire situations. I shudder to think the damage an untrained person could do in that situation.

Also: "
The one aspect of Israeli gun culture that the right conveniently overlooks is that they have strict gun control laws. It’s highly doubtful that Adam Lanza or for that matter, Adam Lanza’s mother, would have had access to an arsenal.
In Israel, gun owners are limited to one pistol and are subject to mental and physical tests. They are also required to be re-certified every three years.

Not all Israelis, however, may own guns. In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol.
In addition, residents of West Bank settlements, and those who work there, may own pistols for self-defense.
Other groups of Israelis, such as professional hunters and sharpshooters, or people transporting dangerous goods, may also own firearms. And Israelis may keep unloaded guns they inherited or received as a gift.
Source, JTA
​

In Israel, there are approximately 7.3 guns per 100 people. In 2008, there was less than one gun homicide per 100,000 people. In the U.S., there are 88.8 guns per 100 people and in 2008, there were over 3 gun homicides for each 100,000 people. Source, gunpolicy.org. This is despite the fact that some in Israel actually do live in a war zone."

 

[Harlequin]

Because it's not in their best interest to publicly call out inept parents.

That's the reality of it. You and many, many others like you try to find that little tiny window where you blame inanimate objects. The fact that you and others can't see what the NRA is really doing is amusing.

They are calling for guards and blaming media to appease ignorance, which unfortunately, manifests in half of society. Telling parents that they fail at parenting doesn't change a thing, and citizens shouldn't have to do away with their protection because of that.

Guns guarantee freedom. Humans are an adversarial species, and disarming citizens the world over will just lead to corruption by the ones with the guns. You all keep talking about this gun business as if it is more then a short-term welfare that will eventually go ballistic. There will be revolution, and the guns will just go back to the citizens.

Unlike you, I know exactly where to start. If people really believe the remedy for all the atrocities is to disarm citizens, then this world really is doomed.

The problem with a militarized population isn't inept parenthood in absolutely every case of misuse of a weapon. It could be a former soldier suffering from PTSD for example. Now I think the degradation/absence of morals is probably the biggest problem to solve but since 1) There's no tangible evidence for my claim and 2) even if there was there's not much that can be done about people who decide to live life differently the only viable solution would be to disarm.

The armed guard is insane to me, it's a drain on police resources and a grossly inappropriate environment for the presence of guns. Not to mention the armament of teachers. Why do they need to take these measures? Because of an entirely unwarranted paranoia in the general populace?

Of the characteristics you'd expect of someone responsible enough to leave your child with battle hardiness is certainly not one of them. If I had a child I'd expect their teacher to be good with children, compassionate, patient, etc etc but never would I expect them to be able to bring themselves to make a split second decision of having to shoot another human being. That's downright ludicrous! I'm not blaming inanimate objects as you've suggested, I'm advocating the removal of unnecessary enablers of massacres. If you're opposed to that I assume you're fine with distributing grenades to the wider population and while we're at it, every type of drug because hey, can't blame the inanimate object can you? Let's lambaste parenthood! Insanity!!!

Anyone who argues taking guns away from US civilians is going to result in tyranny and mass corruption is entirely out of touch with reality. That the NRA would be prepared to sacrifice the innocence of the children of an entire nation in order to preserve an unnecessary and paranoid gun culture rather than preserve human life by advocating disarmament speaks volumes of where the organization's priorities lie. To them thousands of gun related deaths are worth it so long as some paranoid citizens can keep their tools of destruction for a sense of warped empowerment.

Having armed police officers in schools is a ridiculous idea in my head. There isnt enough police officers on the street as it is let alone to have some stationed in EVERY school. And seeing armed police everywhere...youd feel like you were in a military base. Not on yer way to art or cooking class.

...

How about a law that finally puts an end to guns being so available? Like i said you cant stop crime but there IS ways you can counteract and help prevent it and the banning of guns to all but the people in jobs which genuinely require them is going to make a HUGE difference.

I'm in total agreement. Police Officers aren't made in a factory they're members of our society who we've entrusted with the responsibility of guarding us. You can't take what... one in seven officers nationwide and stick them on guard duty every day with the off chance their school might be targeted. In this recession that's a ridiculous waste of resources.

Teens can deal with seeing that type of presence but small children shouldn't have to deal with that bullshit. If the main reason someone feels they can't give up a gun is because the government might deny them a vote one day they've got a very warped idea of how much power any gun is actually giving them to combat the situation. The US has the strongest military in the world, if the government were to seize power from the people (which it wouldn't let's get serious) there's very little you could do about it even with an arsenal in your closet.

If someone thinks holding on to their weapon based on that outlandish possibility is worth the lives of hundreds of innocents that person has blood on their hands.

 

[Shinra Executive]

The reason why the 2nd amendment was put in place wasn't for the admiration of guns, but for freedom against tyranny. If it were supposed to be a temporary thing for the time, they would not have made it a permanent constitutional amendment.
The founding fathers knew this had to be a freedom, because they had saw first hand what happens when all the power is put into one object. All of history tells it. They knew that if you have a defenseless society, they eventually become livestock.

Anti-gun logic is just another laughable production of today's ignorance. In fifty years, you'll see countries like England become more and more oppressive now that it's illegal for people to be armed. It's going to happen, just like it's happened to every single other country with disarmed citizens throughout the entire whole of human history.
What's happening is liberals feel like big shots with their errant notions, living in the moment. Give it some time.
It's sort of what pisses me off about liberals. Their perception of the future only goes like five years or something. And after those years have passed, they go and blame everyone else (and everything) for their mistakes.

 

[Harlequin]

This idea that everyone having a gun somehow equates to shared power baffles me. They're talking about putting infant Americans under armed guards and this doesn't somehow resonate with you as something more akin to a Military State than a land of freedom and opportunity?

Where is the empowerment in you and your loved ones being constantly at the mercy of the average gun toting citizen and their impulses? It's a very warped sense of empowerment indeed. That your priorities would lie in an unwarranted paranoia of the government going from Jekyll to Hyde rather than the more immediate threat of the wider population being armed is lunacy to me.