*PRACTICE DEBATE* Atheism: Why I Do Not Believe in God

[Donald Trump]

considering I've read the bible twice as a child

including the old testament?

you sure would know the level of my intelligence wouldn't you =/, and apparently I'm loud-mouthed XD!

to be brutally honest with you, Angelus and Erythritol are much more intelligent than you.

and as for his son "Jesus". If a person who came around preaching he was the son of God in our time he would be deemed a crackhead. Yet people worship a crackhead who died over 2000 years ago, why is that again?

you cant get much more intolerant than that.

I like how Placebo ignores everything I say, religious people always throw fits when you contradict their faith, sorry sweetheart. Glad to see living proof that I'm right though haha, congratulations.

im an atheist, so you ate glad to see living proof that you're a moron???

And both of you are wrong, perfection is an opinion. What I may find to be perfect others my find wrong

no, perfection is not definable, when its used as an adjective, it's a hyperbole.

Religion force teaches you, you don't learn on your own but are forced to believe in guide lines in which someone else has written for you

zOMG, you will nevr guess wot, non religious societies have these too. they are called laws

idealism and naviety pretty much go hand in hand, so who is naive now?

are thousand of God's in the muslim faith!

ROFL he says he has read the Qu'ran

 

[der Astronom]

D'aww, you don't deem the insults lulz worthy. Laaame. I'm not an admirable person and never claimed to be. And please, like this is a real debate. Tell me when CSPAN is covering it. I have no idea what ANYONE is wishing to accomplish with this debate. No one is actually right, and no one is going change another person's mind. It's completely fruitless. I just jumped in because you were completely wrong with your little Biblical facts. Face it, historians dated the New Testament as being written no later than 150 CE. It was not written "hundreds of years after Jesus died." Now I'm sure you probably want to contest that, and we all know that 20 year olds know a lot more than historians who date shit as a job. Right. Moving on.

Perhaps it's not a real debate, but the purpose of posting here is to get better at debating, one would think, and making ad hominems on purpose doesn't seem like you're trying to get better.

As for the New Testament, I would like to ask you how it is that these bible writers would make contradictions if they were there to see everything, yet not agree about where the disciples met--that's what I've been asking you the entire time because this is what makes the validity of the bible go to question. But thanks a lot for ignoring that. (by the way, you made another ad hominem.)

That's stupid. Why does it have to be all or nothing? People who believe in God are just like you or me, believe it or not. They aren't all lobotomized and walking around with perma-drool on their chins all the time. They can actually think for themselves, and choose to believe/disagree with bits and pieces of the Bible at will. Overall, the Bible really isn't a bad book. It teaches you (if you wanna use that word) some very good things. Sure, it's dated. But c'mon, turn the other cheek when someone wrongs you, do unto others as you would have done unto you-- those are good lesson to live by. Unfortunately, the good gets obscured by extremists who highlight the bad. But I digress. Like I said, the belief in God goes beyond the Bible. There are tons of people who believe in God and have never read the Bible. Ultimately, it's free will and faith.

So you admit that everyone is a free thinker, except for the fundamentalists.

You say that we learn certain things from the bible, yet some of these things are not originally from the bible itself. Most of these morals have been found in writings that predate the bible, including those of Confucius and perhaps some of the Greek philosophers--at least when you see the inconsistencies and the contradictions, it's easy to see where these "good" morals came from. They might have been thrown in to make the bible look less bad, when in fact, you need not necessarily follow the bible to do that--why not read stuff that is actually consistent and not contradictory, like the writings of some of these other philosophers?

 

[Dark Adonis Wilt]

I know this might be hard to understand, but not every religious person out there wants to tie you down to a chair and tell you to convert or they cut your head off. And the only thing you're showing us is how bleakly ignorant your perspectives are.



But mommy says I'm special.... *cries*

Funny, I seem to remember in your first post in this thread you said to cherish your friends and life cuz you never know when they or you might go...that sounds an awful lot like specialty. OH LOOK I FOUND IT!



You keep contradicting yourself. That's not a very smart way to debate.



Your example fails. If you told a kid the sky was green he would only believe you until he went to preschool and learned his colors. Then he'd realize you lied to him. You keep saying God isn't real. Well how about you prove it to us, right here and now. Go on. Prove to us God isn't real. You seem so confident in assumption.



So now are you saying Bei is a Christian or Muslim or something? Last I checked, she wasn't very religious. Now you're just assuming that we're all Christians or Muslims in here, just like you assume ALL religions of the world are out to raep wimminz.

And how the hell is it selfish to presume that there will be some sort of afterlife? OH BOO HOO GODS CREATURES WILL BE PISSED. Yeah here's a clue for ya: they wouldn't be pissed off about that because they wouldn't have the mental and emotional capacity for it.

Uhm religion ties you down to their belt of standards, and if a religious person wants me to convert to them, then yes they do want to bound me. Sorry to burst your bubble .

and I'm sure mommy did say you were, and no, you cherish what is imporant to YOU, not what someone else tells you to cherish. To say you are special to a person who was made up, and supposed to be the creator of the universe, is indeed selfish. For me to cherish those I love, is natural. Even dinosaurs cherished for their young, I think you need to rethink your logic mate.

See now we get somewhere mate, see as a child I was brought up to believe in that crap you call religion, I grew up, and learned for myself that religion is a foolish way of locking away all your fears. It's easy to feel protected when you fool yourself into believing your being watched over by the almighty, isn't it?

Okay Ronin, prove to me God is real, because God never existed since we came around so why not explain your theory on why he is real. He was made up by the human race, they should give logical evidence to his existance. If I said I had candyland in my backyard, why would anyone have to prove me wrong, when I'm the one who made it up. Yeah my logic is quite screwed up =/.

She wasn't very religious haha, that's like saying I'm not very white. Now way to get around it, you're either religious, or you're not. No middle. And believe me, women have been treated like shit for millennium's for the simple fact religion has existed. I remember a specific story from the bible where a group of women are raped in a field, because God said it was right, you should read that, it's in that book I said.

And now you say animals, living things, are emotionless and evil? You know, when my cat is hungry he meows at me, showing he's telling me something. If I hold him in the air above my head, he meows, to show he's afraid. Yet he has no emotions? You remind me of old religious people who used to burn animals, because the emotions they had were a trick by the devil, you are so pathetic. It is selfish, and you are weak minded to believe you will live forever in "paradise". Yeah, we exist only to die and go to paradise, that doesn't sound crazy at all.

including the old testament?


to be brutally honest with you, Angelus and Erythritol are much more intelligent than you.


you cant get much more intolerant than that.


im an atheist, so you ate glad to see living proof that you're a moron???


no, perfection is not definable, when its used as an adjective, it's a hyperbole.


zOMG, you will nevr guess wot, non religious societies have these too. they are called laws

idealism and naviety pretty much go hand in hand, so who is naive now?


ROFL he says he has read the Qu'ran

Back when I went to church I was forced to read both mate. And I couldn't care less what you say, you have no right to measure my level of intelligence =/.

Oh another atheist telling me something, OMG! Once again, couldn't care less, you suck at being an atheist then haha.

Perfection is a word :S, it can be defined, matter of fact websters has one for it, quit trying to sound intelligent, it's not working.

Oh my god did you know laws were set by people other than us once again ! Yeah and by the way laws don't tell me what to believe in.

I dunno who is naive? You I suppose mate :S Honestly most of your sentences go no where :S

 

[Erythritol]

Perhaps it's not a real debate, but the purpose of posting here is to get better at debating, one would think, and making ad hominems on purpose doesn't seem like you're trying to get better.

As for the New Testament, I would like to ask you how it is that these bible writers would make contradictions if they were there to see everything, yet not agree about where the disciples met--that's what I've been asking you the entire time because this is what makes the validity of the bible go to question. But thanks a lot for ignoring that. (by the way, you made another ad hominem.)

Just can't get any of my ad hominems past you, can I? Shit, did I just make another one? Dammit.

The authors of the Bible were fallible and human. They probably made up some stuff. For the most part, however, they all tell basically the same story, which is the important part. I said that (or at least thought I did), but I guess you ignored it. Yes, everyone is aware the Bible is not consistent. Most people who are religious are also aware of this fact. What matters is the basic story, not the little pieces that are different in each account.

Get better at debating? Um, wow, what a fucking awful topic to pick then. There really isn't much to debate. The only thing to do in an atheism topic is dump on either religious people, the Bible, God, or smug atheists. You can talk about logic and your beloved math or science until you're blue in the face or the pages in your textbook fall out, it won't do you any good. It also really won't make you much better at debating. While your very (very) lengthy posts have been not exactly interesting, but enlightening (in a way?), they haven't done much for your case. You've just been running around in circles. We're still back to the fact that no one can prove or disprove the existence of God.

So you admit that everyone is a free thinker, except for the fundamentalists.

You say that we learn certain things from the bible, yet some of these things are not originally from the bible itself. Most of these morals have been found in writings that predate the bible, including those of Confucius and perhaps some of the Greek philosophers--at least when you see the inconsistencies and the contradictions, it's easy to see where these "good" morals came from. They might have been thrown in to make the bible look less bad, when in fact, you need not necessarily follow the bible to do that--why not read stuff that is actually consistent and not contradictory, like the writings of some of these other philosophers?

Um...what I mentioned were the teachings of Jesus, actually. Which is the ENTIRE reason that the New Testament was written. Jesus wanted to spread his teachings. While Confucius may have gotten to it first, I don't think Jesus was aware of that. I don't think the Bible ripped off anyone's ideas on purpose. And people don't read philosophers because they're bloody boring. I can't really say much about philosophy because I don't know a hell of a lot about it. But I'd venture to say that Jesus was a lot like a philosopher, he just was a hell of a lot more popular.

 

[Rockman X]

Uhm religion ties you down to their belt of standards, and if a religious person wants me to convert to them, then yes they do want to bound me. Sorry to burst your bubble .

Religion is primarily a set of guidelines to follow, generally with some leeway thrown in. People will choose what religion they want. If mommy and daddy try to convert them at a young age, they'll grow older and decide they don't believe it anymore.

and I'm sure mommy did say you were, and no, you cherish what is imporant to YOU, not what someone else tells you to cherish. To say you are special to a person who was made up, and supposed to be the creator of the universe, is indeed selfish. For me to cherish those I love, is natural. Even dinosaurs cherished for their young, I think you need to rethink your logic mate.

Dinosaurs cherished their young? LMFAO. Come on man, you're seriously faltering here. Animals in the wild nurture their young because it is an instinct designed to protect/raise/teach them.

And I still haven't seen you prove that God doesn't exist.

See now we get somewhere mate, see as a child I was brought up to believe in that crap you call religion, I grew up, and learned for myself that religion is a foolish way of locking away all your fears. It's easy to feel protected when you fool yourself into believing your being watched over by the almighty, isn't it?

Oh you poor widdle baby, did mommy twy to convert you to her religion because she thought it was best for you and was trying to raise you in the way she knew how?

So basically all your hatred and ignorance of religion stems from being angry at your mother for trying to convert you? Here, I've got a nice sofa and a notepad, why don't you take a seat. Go on, take a seat right over there.

Okay Ronin, prove to me God is real, because God never existed since we came around so why not explain your theory on why he is real. He was made up by the human race, they should give logical evidence to his existance. If I said I had candyland in my backyard, why would anyone have to prove me wrong, when I'm the one who made it up. Yeah my logic is quite screwed up =/.

I can't prove he's real. You can't prove he isn't real and never existed. The only way you could prove that that is if you were omniscient, and you aren't, so be quiet little boy.

She wasn't very religious haha, that's like saying I'm not very white. Now way to get around it, you're either religious, or you're not. No middle. And believe me, women have been treated like shit for millennium's for the simple fact religion has existed. I remember a specific story from the bible where a group of women are raped in a field, because God said it was right, you should read that, it's in that book I said.

So now you know EXACTLY what she's like? Uh huh. And passage plx, I have a Bible in my room but I'm not going out to buy your stupidass book, so if you give me the passage I can look it up. Or are you afraid that you're just bullshitting or taking things out of context?

And now you say animals, living things, are emotionless and evil? You know, when my cat is hungry he meows at me, showing he's telling me something. If I hold him in the air above my head, he meows, to show he's afraid. Yet he has no emotions? You remind me of old religious people who used to burn animals, because the emotions they had were a trick by the devil, you are so pathetic. It is selfish, and you are weak minded to believe you will live forever in "paradise". Yeah, we exist only to die and go to paradise, that doesn't sound crazy at all.

I said they do not have the same emotional capacity humans do, they don't have such a complex range of emotions as us. And I never said they were evil:

And how the hell is it selfish to presume that there will be some sort of afterlife? OH BOO HOO GODS CREATURES WILL BE PISSED. Yeah here's a clue for ya: they wouldn't be pissed off about that because they wouldn't have the mental and emotional capacity for it.

Shut the fuck up. I'm going to bed now, your arguments are absurd, you are completely ignorant of the subject you are arguing, you act like everyone is out to rape you and kill you and convert you. It must suck to be you.

 

[Dark Adonis Wilt]

Religion is primarily a set of guidelines to follow, generally with some leeway thrown in. People will choose what religion they want. If mommy and daddy try to convert them at a young age, they'll grow older and decide they don't believe it anymore.



Dinosaurs cherished their young? LMFAO. Come on man, you're seriously faltering here. Animals in the wild nurture their young because it is an instinct designed to protect/raise/teach them.

And I still haven't seen you prove that God doesn't exist.



Oh you poor widdle baby, did mommy twy to convert you to her religion because she thought it was best for you and was trying to raise you in the way she knew how?

So basically all your hatred and ignorance of religion stems from being angry at your mother for trying to convert you? Here, I've got a nice sofa and a notepad, why don't you take a seat. Go on, take a seat right over there.



I can't prove he's real. You can't prove he isn't real and never existed. The only way you could prove that that is if you were omniscient, and you aren't, so be quiet little boy.



So now you know EXACTLY what she's like? Uh huh. And passage plx, I have a Bible in my room but I'm not going out to buy your stupidass book, so if you give me the passage I can look it up. Or are you afraid that you're just bullshitting or taking things out of context?



I said they do not have the same emotional capacity humans do, they don't have such a complex range of emotions as us. And I never said they were evil:



Shut the fuck up. I'm going to bed now, your arguments are absurd, you are completely ignorant of the subject you are arguing, you act like everyone is out to rape you and kill you and convert you. It must suck to be you.

Oh so you admit that faith is nothing but a bunch of stupid moral for people to follow, and that it has been editted to make it sound less crazy? Thanks for that. Glad someone can admit it.

Really? because scientifics prove that animals have hormones for emotions, same as us, just because they don't show it the same way we do, doesn't mean they don't, narrow minded are we?

I just told ya mate, I don't have to prove he doesn't XD, I never said he did exist in the first place, I like how religious people can't prove any of this.

My mom did raise me the best, and sure as hell made me a good person, same as my brother. Couldn't care less what you say Ronin haha. I guess your mommy didn't give you a strong enough mind, poor little one .

Are you a psychologist now XD!? Come down Dr. Phil, take a chill pill hahah! Woo that was a great laugh though mate ! But no, my hatred comes from the people I've seen die. Watching someone say a prayer then cut the head off of someone is a pretty radical thing. And also giving people a false since of security I find quite idiotic, religion just makes people suckers, bottom line buddy.

If you make up something buddy, you better back it up, why should I have to back up your lie? Why do I have to prove anything based on a lie that I didn't make? Sorry but religion is a big joke, and so are religious people haha, you can't even prove your own religion, that's just sad.

Yup stupid ass book, why would you want to read something that would contradict your faith right? Because after all I just didn't tell you the story, I gave you the source and you can read for yourself. They tell the book it comes from, the chapters, pages, everything, quite nice. Why are you afraid to get it yourself :S, I gave you the source, if I gave you the story you'd wind up saying I was lying. Either way I know you wouldn't be happy, but why would you when you bitch because I contradict the morals you have built your life around right?


Ya go to sleep and pray mate, pray that "God" will strike me down. Ain't gonna happen, but what the hell when you'll hope for anything. And no, not everyone is so stupid, but doesn't mean their beliefs still aren't uncreditable and just full of lies haha. But hey, night man, I'm sure you'll sleep well with God watching over you mate .

 

[der Astronom]

Just can't get any of my ad hominems past you, can I? Shit, did I just make another one? Dammit.

The authors of the Bible were fallible and human. They probably made up some stuff. For the most part, however, they all tell basically the same story, which is the important part. I said that (or at least thought I did), but I guess you ignored it. Yes, everyone is aware the Bible is not consistent. Most people who are religious are also aware of this fact. What matters is the basic story, not the little pieces that are different in each account.

No actually, I did address this point--they don't all tell the same things, and perhaps those are minor details, but that puts the validity of what they say that are the same into question. Because of these apparently small details that are in contradiction, the rest of the story is not consistent. If I could ask if these small details weren't true, then it's entirely possible that the rest of the other details might not be true. So it doesn't matter if they say the same things "basically", it matters that its consistency (or lack thereof) calls the validity into question. Or worded differently, the basic story falls apart if the details aren't clear.

I am once again, not picking at the people who choose to believe or not believe what the bible says. I am picking at what the bible itself says.

Get better at debating? Um, wow, what a fucking awful topic to pick then. There really isn't much to debate. The only thing to do in an atheism topic is dump on either religious people, the Bible, God, or smug atheists. You can talk about logic and your beloved math or science until you're blue in the face or the pages in your textbook fall out, it won't do you any good. It also really won't make you much better at debating. While your very (very) lengthy posts have been not exactly interesting, but enlightening (in a way?), they haven't done much for your case. You've just been running around in circles. We're still back to the fact that no one can prove or disprove the existence of God.

Well obviously, because it was never my intent to disprove or prove the existence of God--we only state our disbeliefs and explanations as to why we personally choose not to believe. However, this does not mean we need to prove God does not exist, as it is our opinions that we choose not to believe in God, and not as fact. I mentioned science and math as pursuits that I find more worthy of spending time on rather than worship and believing in religion, but I did not suggest that they might prove or disprove God's existence. However, you simply chose to attack strawmen about my comments on math and science, which lead me to point those things out.

Um...what I mentioned were the teachings of Jesus, actually. Which is the ENTIRE reason that the New Testament was written. Jesus wanted to spread his teachings. While Confucius may have gotten to it first, I don't think Jesus was aware of that. I don't think the Bible ripped off anyone's ideas on purpose. And people don't read philosophers because they're bloody boring. I can't really say much about philosophy because I don't know a hell of a lot about it. But I'd venture to say that Jesus was a lot like a philosopher, he just was a hell of a lot more popular.

Oh really? So is it no small coincidence that the bible shares many elements with other mythologies from other cultures, and several other morals from other philosophies? If there was only one or two morals taken from Confucius, then perhaps it might have been plausible that the bible didn't intentionally rip on other morals from other cultures, but that's clearly not the case.

You say that people don't read philosophy because they think it's boring, and yet, you say that you don't know much about it. If you are the same as the people that think philosophy is boring, how could you say that about something which you admit you don't know much about?

Actually, there's a fairly good reason why the bible was more easily accepted. It shuns other religions and cultures that don't worship the same God as they do. For centuries, they've been decapitating Greek statues, ignoring Greek scientists' and philosophers' works, and otherwise defacing or ruining other Greek stuff, and other things they've deemed heathen--and all because of the bible's religious intolerance. It is because of this intolerance that people have ignorance of the philosopher's works that predated the bible. It is amusing that even people now don't even pay attention to this.

 

[Soul Saver]

Blah blah blah blah, what textbook or essay did you copy all that from? This isn't a lecture hall and it's not science 1010 or philosophy 1010.

People without the intellect to grasp science or the nerve to do things on their own rely on god and texts written about him for comfort and guidance. That's why people praise god.

Now, to leave you with a very simple answer, the existence of a god cannot be proven OR disproven. End of story. We're more likely to discover aliens before we discover a god.

Why? Because gathering from all the mythos about various cultures' gods, god is outside our dimension of time...and matter too, even. Jesus Christ supposedly teleported out of his tomb, then suddenly appeared inside the house the apostles were gathered at. That definitely shows the ability to leave our physical dimension. So none of our science is ever going to be able to penetrate dimensional barriers like that, at least not for a looooooong time.

QFT. I was going to say something like that later. By the very concept of an omniscient and omnipotent God...
Such a force or being has not been proven or disproven by science. In fact, if something that is *all powerful* wants to hide, it will hide.
Denial by lack of proof. That argument works if you don't believe that people can find some sort of power within themselves, etc, and that a God would have intervened by now, shown itself. But when you go further than that, you will find that these people who believe that we can find God within every one of us might be on to something.

One might be able to disprove the concept of a biblical God based on disproving the scriptures, but the idea remains. And indeed it is still possible to believe in a God, despite being really intelligent. Sure, as intelligence increases, the incidence of Atheism increases. But belief still remains. Interesting.

And the evidence we have from science, and the beauty of the world might even strengthen the argument that some sort of coherent, supreme force exists. In that life even exists, humans can think, animals evolved in the first place. The intricacies of biological cells and DNA. How was this created?

Belief in a "God", certain religions, etc. can also be a force for good. Religion, or just a belief that there is a God gives people hope in their lives. Whether it is truth or fiction, is subjective no matter what physical evidence there is. Rather, it is all within the mind.
As an agnostic myself, I'm a fence-sitter.

 

[Donald Trump]

Oh another atheist telling me something, OMG! Once again, couldn't care less, you suck at being an atheist then haha

the only thing funny about this is how much you suck at everything, you make an incredibly stupid statement about how bad religion is, and you cant back it up so you make up more bullshit.
and how can you suck at being an atheist? i dont believe in god, but i dont hate religion, is that why?

you have no right to measure my level of intelligence =/.

or no need, your posts are as bad as tedius' posts.

Perfection is a word :S, it can be defined

god is a word. it can be defined. so therefore there is a god?
No. Of course not

I dunno who is naive? You I suppose mate :S Honestly most of your sentences go no where

go to websters, look up irony, then apply it tp your post.

but never the less keep going, keep posting

 

[Dark Adonis Wilt]

the only thing funny about this is how much you suck at everything, you make an incredibly stupid statement about how bad religion is, and you cant back it up so you make up more bullshit.
and how can you suck at being an atheist? i dont believe in god, but i dont hate religion, is that why?


or no need, your posts are as bad as tedius' posts.


god is a word. it can be defined. so therefore there is a god?
No. Of course not


go to websters, look up irony, then apply it tp your post.

but never the less keep going, keep posting

Haha there's not anything to even post about, it's gone from religious debate to personal attack, if you wanna attack me, PM me, I don't want this to turn into a big fiasco mate.

Sure, I can make up words too mate, doesn't mean when I make up a word it automatically gains some sort of reality haha.

 

[Donald Trump]

exactly. because you dont have any proof god doesnt exist

Oh so you admit that faith is nothing but a bunch of stupid moral for people to follow, and that it has been editted to make it sound less crazy? Thanks for that. Glad someone can admit it.

but then all atheism is moral-less, yet somehow you think thats better?

Uhm religion ties you down to their belt of standards

also a society without standards, seems a good idea? no.

I just told ya mate, I don't have to prove he doesn't XD, I never said he did exist in the first place, I like how religious people can't prove any of this.

nor can you, which make you exactly the same as a religious person.

Yeah, we exist only to die and go to paradise, that doesn't sound crazy at all

 

[Dark Adonis Wilt]

exactly. because you dont have any proof god doesnt exist


but then all atheism is moral-less, yet somehow you think thats better?


also a society without standards, seems a good idea? no.


nor can you, which make you exactly the same as a religious person.

I have my own opinions and moral settings that I have set myself, by learning. Didn't read a book to get my morals.

Who ever said anything about a society without standards? Putting words into my mouth mate, I said laws don't tell people what to believe in.

And I'm not the same as a religious person. Don't see where you get that from :S. My ideals come from my own thinking, not what I was brought up to believe or what God told me to believe. My own belt of standards mate, no one elses.

 

[Donald Trump]

And I'm not the same as a religious person. Don't see where you get that from :S. My ideals come from my own thinking

yet you said that religion is all made up. therefore they are exactly the same.

but you just said that the bible gave people morals and then you criticized it, therefore your critising people having morals.

but you complained about standards.

moreover, you still havent proved god doesnt exist, saying there is no proof he does, doesnt count

 

[Dark Adonis Wilt]

yet you said that religion is all made up. therefore they are exactly the same.

but you just said that the bible gave people morals and then you criticized it, therefore your critising people having morals.

but you complained about standards.

moreover, you still havent proved god doesnt exist, saying there is no proof he does, doesnt count

I didn't make up a God to have my morals. I don't rely on anything to watch over me, I don't lie to myself. I have realistic standards that I know will never be shattered for the simple fact their built on knowledge, not faith mate.

And once again for an atheist, why should I have to prove someone else's lie? Honestly, I have to prove something about someone's lie? That doesn't make much sense buddy.

 

[Skunkman88]

Thirdly, god and religion serves as a crutch for weak-minded and weak-willed people who aren't brave enough to live their lives on their own and confront their own problems.

Which is the reason there are fiercely pro-atheism individuals around. Also, if religion hadn't automatically assumed this role, it wouldn't be such a problem. Those people who are too weak to fix things themselves will always be weak if they rely on a nice way of looking at things for the rest of their lives...

I'm sure plenty of other reasons have been mentioned as to why it's pointless, but for any you think you may have missed, go to http://www.godisimaginary.com/

 

[Fair_Game]

And what do you have to gain from exploring such a possibility when there's no evidence for such a thing?

This is the only quote I wanted to say anything about in all of that stuff. You said 'possibility' does that mean that you think it could be possible for a being to exist outside of time?

We couldn't prove it, couldn't know it, couldn't do anything with it but it could exist. If it existed...hypothetically, would that answer your questions?

And about the moving of the plates thing, I was saying that he knew all the outcomes of the future so he didn't have to use any kind of magic or machinery to change the plates movement. Upon creation he could have set up all the dominoes.

I don't believe the bible is perfect, because I've gone to catholic school where a historian of the church came in and told us couples intending to join that the bible was put together by catholics, that certain books were cut out. Which is predominantly why I came up with my own religion.

OH and you mentioned something about 'why would God not want to make himself known'...for some reason I read that as more of a plea then an argument. Hopeful? I could be delusional.

Well in the hypothetical example I gave where God wanted to test our ability to believe beyond reason, he wouldn't very eagerly jump from behind the curtain to quantify it would he? Not much of a test if he goes 'do you believe' and we go...'well yeah your standing in front of me.'

Anyway, its all fun and hypothetical so maybe it doesn't count...I end up thinking the following :

If there is a possibility then it should be explored, and there are two here...God might not exist and God might exist. I guess I'm picking the one I like better.

OH and (wow I guess there were a few quotes I wanted to say stuff about) about the whole 'crutch/companion' thing. People can be alright companions, don't get me wrong I can think of one or two I'd gladly spend every moment with. The thing is I can't think of a single person that has had the patience to do so. I pick God as a companion because the thought 'God's helping' gives me strength, I notice my resolve increase, I notice my ability to work through adversity strengthen, I can visably feel my ability to sacrifice everything for a foolish ideal, quantify. And in the end, I know I could survive if only with that one thought. Some may call it a crutch, fine... wanna arm wrestle a cripple with an irrational ideal that makes him go SSJ4? (heh, thats really just to be comedic...sorry)

EDIT : on a side note, I know of a guy who irrationally recovered from a coma right as the doctors (scratching their heads as they often do) were about to pull the plug...when asked what did it? He said 'God's helping, I asked him to let me see my grand-daughter'. She was born the day he woke up. The whole story is really cool but eh...don't wanna bore ya...plus people just end up calling it a feel-good story, and my uncle was a bad-ass.

 

[Scarlet]

Whoa whoa whoa, since this already a flame war, can we please debate in a peaceful manner. Thank you.

Savvywilt - Since I've already warned VengefulRonin and Erythritol, you need to stop attacking people personally. Also do not insult people who believe in god, I know that's your opinion but keep it to yourself. There are some people on this forum who are Catholic. Please respect others in what they believe in.

Angelus-Mortis - I know you use to be a staff member once but you don't need to tell Erythritol to stop insulting others. You don't need to keep pointing your finger at her. Moderators can handle this issue. If you have a problem with Erythritol then you can PM a moderator about it.

 

[der Astronom]

This is the only quote I wanted to say anything about in all of that stuff. You said 'possibility' does that mean that you think it could be possible for a being to exist outside of time?

Who knows? But to ponder such questions without evidence is pointless and inconclusive. If you have no evidence, you can say nothing more about such things, unless you wish to concede that it was all just your imagination.

We couldn't prove it, couldn't know it, couldn't do anything with it but it could exist. If it existed...hypothetically, would that answer your questions?

And once again, what would you have to gain from that? I also repeat that from above, you know almost nothing about the said thing because you have no evidence from it, and can say nothing. Even if you could assume it existed hypothetically, yet you know nothing about it because you have no evidence of it, what can you say about it? Right, nothing again.

And about the moving of the plates thing, I was saying that he knew all the outcomes of the future so he didn't have to use any kind of magic or machinery to change the plates movement. Upon creation he could have set up all the dominoes.

But then the purpose for him doing these things is not natural but moral, and is irrelevant with the way the natural world works. What you might be suggesting is that God hid behind a natural phenomena that did happen, so maybe it was both natural and moral, but how do you know that such an act was actually natural, and did it actually happen? Those are things which you still do not have the answer to. Even if it were possible, using Occam's Razor, the simpler explanation is that there was no moral purpose behind it, and God had nothing to do with it.

Once again, as what you suggest above, you have no evidence, and therefore, your suggestion is inconclusive. You can say nothing of the sort without any kind of evidence, particularly because you cannot rule out the possibility that the entire thing happened without morality, even though that explanation is both the simplest and most efficient.

I don't believe the bible is perfect, because I've gone to catholic school where a historian of the church came in and told us couples intending to join that the bible was put together by catholics, that certain books were cut out. Which is predominantly why I came up with my own religion.

OH and you mentioned something about 'why would God not want to make himself known'...for some reason I read that as more of a plea then an argument. Hopeful? I could be delusional.

Yes, you are. I wrote that as an argument because it doesn't make sense to me why a God or any creator wouldn't want to make himself known, unless, like below, he was some horrible bastard wanting to test people. People are delicate, and don't like to be played with. The only reason they let that happen to themselves is because they're playing with someone who is perfect and omnipotent. It's quite easy to see why they're so easily scared into believing such things.

Well in the hypothetical example I gave where God wanted to test our ability to believe beyond reason, he wouldn't very eagerly jump from behind the curtain to quantify it would he? Not much of a test if he goes 'do you believe' and we go...'well yeah your standing in front of me.'

And that obviously wouldn't be a problem if he didn't ask such silly questions as "do you believe"--what do you think that looks like, some curtain hide and seek game?

Anyway, its all fun and hypothetical so maybe it doesn't count...I end up thinking the following :

If there is a possibility then it should be explored, and there are two here...God might not exist and God might exist. I guess I'm picking the one I like better.

OH and (wow I guess there were a few quotes I wanted to say stuff about) about the whole 'crutch/companion' thing. People can be alright companions, don't get me wrong I can think of one or two I'd gladly spend every moment with. The thing is I can't think of a single person that has had the patience to do so. I pick God as a companion because the thought 'God's helping' gives me strength, I notice my resolve increase, I notice my ability to work through adversity strengthen, I can visably feel my ability to sacrifice everything for a foolish ideal, quantify. And in the end, I know I could survive if only with that one thought. Some may call it a crutch, fine... wanna arm wrestle a cripple with an irrational ideal that makes him go SSJ4? (heh, thats really just to be comedic...sorry)

But lots of people end up loving other people of their own choosing, and end up getting married. Perhaps it's true that not everyone ends up staying with the person they wanted to be with, but I could say the same for religion--not everyone who joins necessarily stays. It's nice if you want to believe that God works as a companion for you (but I should tell you that it might just be nothing more than a placebo effect, and if you replace God with another imaginary character, it would work just as well--in fact, other people become motivated by having some other imaginary or real hero or historical figure, and they feel stronger and more motivated that way--don't think your God is any more special at this than these other characters) But you can't assume that it works for everyone else.

In the end, you can boast about how much God has done for you, but then I can boast about how much Gauss has done not only for motivating myself, but for the world of mathematics, astronomy and physics, and consequently, our understanding of the said subjects which lead to better technology and living standards, and the liberality of women as scientists--what has your God done for the rest of the world? The Crusades, Inquisition, discrimination against women and perhaps other races, and the torturing and killing of heretics? If he ever did anything good for the rest of the world, it would be so small as to be insignificant.

EDIT : on a side note, I know of a guy who irrationally recovered from a coma right as the doctors (scratching their heads as they often do) were about to pull the plug...when asked what did it? He said 'God's helping, I asked him to let me see my grand-daughter'. She was born the day he woke up. The whole story is really cool but eh...don't wanna bore ya...plus people just end up calling it a feel-good story, and my uncle was a bad-ass.

That's a rather common argument I've seen too. Although this is similar to the "miracle" argument--however, just because the doctors can't figure out what's going on doesn't mean that the person recovered because of a miracle. If it was exclusive to God only, that doesn't explain why it happens to non believers as well. Furthermore, you again have no evidence that such a miracle was caused by God--it may be caused by other agents, or there was simply not enough evidence for us to understand what exactly happened--it might still have been entirely feasible, but appeared only miraculous to us, just as a magician performing magic tricks might seem to be performing miracles, when in fact, they are simply just applications of science and possibly psychology performed so well that you can't figure out how it works.

Angelus-Mortis - I know you use to be a staff member once but you don't need to tell Erythritol to stop insulting others. You don't need to keep pointing your finger at her. Moderators can handle this issue. If you have a problem with Erythritol then you can PM a moderator about it.

I'm not picking on her posts because I want her to get a flame warning; I'm picking on them in light of recognizing debate fallacies. I don't particularly have a problem with debating her, but I think maybe she should just know when she's making a fallacy and when she isn't. However, I haven't received a PM from her yet.

If you have a problem with the conflict between moderating and recognizing debate fallacies, I think we should get that sorted out.

 

[Scarlet]

I'm not picking on her posts because I want her to get a flame warning; I'm picking on them in light of recognizing debate fallacies. I don't particularly have a problem with debating her, but I think maybe she should just know when she's making a fallacy and when she isn't. However, I haven't received a PM from her yet.

If you have a problem with the conflict between moderating and recognizing debate fallacies, I think we should get that sorted out.

Fine by me, it's best to sort this in PMs. If you wish to private message me about this situation then please do so.

 

[Erythritol]

No actually, I did address this point--they don't all tell the same things, and perhaps those are minor details, but that puts the validity of what they say that are the same into question. Because of these apparently small details that are in contradiction, the rest of the story is not consistent. If I could ask if these small details weren't true, then it's entirely possible that the rest of the other details might not be true. So it doesn't matter if they say the same things "basically", it matters that its consistency (or lack thereof) calls the validity into question. Or worded differently, the basic story falls apart if the details aren't clear.

I am once again, not picking at the people who choose to believe or not believe what the bible says. I am picking at what the bible itself says.

Um, I'm just wondering if you've read the Bible here. Because the story IS consistent. Like I've said several, several times, the descriptions of Jesus rising and his subsequent resurrection is described by every disciple the same. The little details actually DON'T matter to many religious people. Whether you believe it is valid or not is sort of a moot point. Actually, whether it really IS valid or not is also a moot point. Whether Peter or Paul were actually there at Jesus's crucifiction or whether they saw him rise doesn't mean there is or isn't a God. Hey, maybe Jesus WAS just a crazy guy and not really the son of God. Okay, now what? There was still a God before Jesus. You can pick at what the Bible says all you want, it won't really help you in your "is there a God?" argument. You need to stop fixating on the idea that people who believe in God also believe in the Bible. Just because it suits your needs to the debate doesn't mean it's true.

Well obviously, because it was never my intent to disprove or prove the existence of God--we only state our disbeliefs and explanations as to why we personally choose not to believe. However, this does not mean we need to prove God does not exist, as it is our opinions that we choose not to believe in God, and not as fact. I mentioned science and math as pursuits that I find more worthy of spending time on rather than worship and believing in religion, but I did not suggest that they might prove or disprove God's existence. However, you simply chose to attack strawmen about my comments on math and science, which lead me to point those things out.

The strawmen started singing about wanting brains, and it was getting annoying D: It's fine and dandy if you don't believe in God and state your reasons. I don't really care. I'm just saying when I express my belief that perhaps God does exist and you try to argue in the debate, your logic falls flat. Because-- as bad as this is going to sound-- logic doesn't have a place in religion. Most of it is blind faith. Accept this.

Oh really? So is it no small coincidence that the bible shares many elements with other mythologies from other cultures, and several other morals from other philosophies? If there was only one or two morals taken from Confucius, then perhaps it might have been plausible that the bible didn't intentionally rip on other morals from other cultures, but that's clearly not the case.

You say that people don't read philosophy because they think it's boring, and yet, you say that you don't know much about it. If you are the same as the people that think philosophy is boring, how could you say that about something which you admit you don't know much about?

Actually, there's a fairly good reason why the bible was more easily accepted. It shuns other religions and cultures that don't worship the same God as they do. For centuries, they've been decapitating Greek statues, ignoring Greek scientists' and philosophers' works, and otherwise defacing or ruining other Greek stuff, and other things they've deemed heathen--and all because of the bible's religious intolerance. It is because of this intolerance that people have ignorance of the philosopher's works that predated the bible. It is amusing that even people now don't even pay attention to this.

I'm well aware that the Bible borrows from other mythologies: Pagan ideologies, Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. I can never say this with one hundred percent certainty, and no one really can, but I'm fairly certain that what made its way into the New Testament was Jesus's own ideologies. Those ideologies are what was very important; they were the reason for the creation of the New Testament. Much of what was borrowed for the Old Testament was different religious symbols and events (ie: the flood). Recycling events like the flood and recycling entire schools of thought are two different things.

I don't know much about philosophy, but I know enough to think it's boring and a waste of time to me. Much like the Bible (sorry Bible), I think philosophy books are obsolete. I won't go into it because this isn't about philosophy.

Wow, I'm surprised you said something like that. I'd expect better from you. I'm guessing you're a fan of Greek philosophers and such. Anyway, I'd like to point out that those were PEOPLE who did those things. Unfortunately, Christianity did lose its way for a while. People perverted the teachings. When people did those things (which I agree are terrible), they were perverting the teachings of Christ, not following the teachings. That is NOT what the New Testament teaches. The New Testament, if anything, teaches tolerance even-- yes-- religious tolerance. I could find some passages, but I'm too lazy. Sadly, people are deeply flawed and back in the day, perverted Christian teachings and smeared the name of Christianity. It really isn't-- or shouldn't be-- a religion of intolerance and hate. It's people that made it way.

I'm not picking on her posts because I want her to get a flame warning; I'm picking on them in light of recognizing debate fallacies. I don't particularly have a problem with debating her, but I think maybe she should just know when she's making a fallacy and when she isn't. However, I haven't received a PM from her yet.

Like I said, I throw in insults for the lulz. If you actually read my posts carefully, the attacks on personal character aren't my argument.