Protesters descend on Ground Zero for anti-mosque demonstration

[The Witch]

New York (CNN) -- Protesters gathered in lower Manhattan mid-day Sunday to demonstrate against plans to build a mosque near the site of Ground Zero, where the twin towers of the World Trade Center were destroyed by Islamist hijackers on September 11, 2001.

Protest organizer Pamela Geller, a conservative blogger, and her group, "Stop the Islamicization of America," planned the event because, according to the group's website, "Building the Ground Zero mosque is not an issue of religious freedom, but of resisting an effort to insult the victims of 9/11 and to establish a beachhead for political Islam and Islamic supremacism in New York... Ground Zero is a war memorial, a burial ground. Respect it."
Geller said the NYPD and security at the rally told her about 5,000 demonstrators were there. But NYPD spokesman Sgt. Kevin Hayes said the police department's policy is to not provide crowd estimates and that he could not confirm Geller's number.

CNN iReporter Julio Ortiz-Teissonniere, who attended the rally and sent photos to CNN, said the number was closer to 200-300 while he was there for the first 45 minutes of the event. All three said the protest was peaceful.

Human rights advocates, politicians and families of 9/11 victims addressed the crowd. Both Geller and Ortiz-Teissonniere said those family members elicited a powerful, emotional response from the protesters.
Geller recently told CNN's Joy Behar that no one's telling the mosque's planners they can't build it, but "We're asking them not to."

"We feel it would be more appropriate maybe to build a center dedicated to expunging the Quranic texts of the violent ideology that inspired jihad, or perhaps a center to the victims of hundreds of millions of years of jihadi wars, land enslavements, cultural annihilations and mass slaughter," Geller said.

The project calls for a 13-story community center including a mosque, performing art center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces.
It is a collaboration between the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative.
The Cordoba Initiative aims to improve relations between Muslims and the West.

"The Cordoba Initiative hopes to build a $100 million, 13-story community center with Islamic, interfaith and secular programming, similar to the 92nd Street Y," its website says, referring to the cultural institution on the upper East side of Manhattan.

Daisy Khan of the American Society for Muslim Advancement told CNN it was a "community center with a prayer space inside."
She said the project was an opportunity for American Muslims living in New York to "give back" to the community.

"There is a lot of ignorance about who Muslims are. A center like this will be dedicated to removing that ignorance and it will also counter the extremists because moderate Muslims need a voice," she told CNN. "Their voices need to be amplified."

Local political leaders turned out in support of the community last month after Mark Williams of the conservative Tea Party Express reportedly said the mosque was for "the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god."
"To make room for peace there can be no room for hatred, bigotry or prejudice," City Councilman Robert Jackson said at the May 20 demonstration.

The project has the backing of the Community Board of lower Manhattan. It does not require city permission to go ahead.

iReport: Protests against mosque near Ground Zero

The plan has split people touched by the September 11 attacks.
"Lower Manhattan should be made into a shrine for the people who died there," said Michael Valentin, a retired city detective who worked at ground zero. "It breaks my heart for the families who have to put up with this. I understand they're [building] it in a respectful way, but it just shouldn't be down there."
Others such as Barry Zelman said the site's location will be a painful reminder.
"(The 9/11 terrorists) did this in the name of Islam," Zelman said. "It's a sacred ground where these people died, where my brother was murdered, and to be in the shadows of that religion, it's just hypocritical and sacrilegious. "

But Marvin Bethea, who was a paramedic at ground zero, said it was "the right thing to do."

"I lost 16 friends down there. But Muslims also got killed on 9/11. It would be a good sign of faith that we're not condemning all Muslims and that the Muslims who did this happened to be extremists," he said. "As a black man, I know what it's like to be discriminated against when you haven't done anything."


-Source-

 

[der Astronom]

I actually kind of agree. To put a Mosque in the exact same place where terrorists blew up a building and claimed they did it in the name of Islam is like adding salt to injury. If you want to raise awareness of a moderate Islam, then you don't need a building to do that. You can promote moderate Islam in other ways. Atheists do it too--in Texas, there's a TV show that takes calls from people around the world about religious matters, and to promote atheism (without proselytizing). It's called the Atheist Experience. And people like Dawkins create foundations for promoting science and secularism, and write books to make people aware of atheism. And somebody from Britain, with support from Dawkins, wrote a bus ad to promote atheism. You don't need a multi-million dollar religious institutional building or something similar to prove a point. You just need free speech. Which clearly exists in America.

 

[The Witch]

I actually kind of agree. To put a Mosque in the exact same place where terrorists blew up a building and claimed they did it in the name of Islam is like adding salt to injury. If you want to raise awareness of a moderate Islam, then you don't need a building to do that. You can promote moderate Islam in other ways. Atheists do it too--in Texas, there's a TV show that takes calls from people around the world about religious matters, and to promote atheism (without proselytizing). It's called the Atheist Experience. And people like Dawkins create foundations for promoting science and secularism, and write books to make people aware of atheism. And somebody from Britain, with support from Dawkins, wrote a bus ad to promote atheism. You don't need a multi-million dollar religious institutional building or something similar to prove a point. You just need free speech. Which clearly exists in America.

I agree completely!

Muslims can have Mosques anywhere else in America, just not there.

And if any Muslim agrees to build it near Ground Zero, they're being extremely rude towards the victims of 9/11.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Why not put it in another state? WHY New York?

If they could act Civilized and not have paraded in the streets after people died in 9/11, then there probably wouldn't be the whole generalization thing -- Oh wait, nevermind their murderous Qur'an says to be so Psychotic

I swear the religious can be the most animalistic people sometimes.

 

[Rasputin]

Muslims can have Mosques anywhere else in America, just not there.

No, they really can't. With the enormous amount of lies and discrimination over Muslims that is prevalent among the conservative portion of this nation it is quite difficult for them to build a mosque in ANY urban center without dealing with protests. The fact is that poverty and a culture of violence caused these people to become terrorists, not the religion. Putting a mosque here will show once again that the vast majority of Muslims are productive members of society.

If they could act Civilized and not have paraded in the streets after people died in 9/11, then there probably wouldn't be the whole generalization thing -- Oh wait, nevermind their murderous Qur'an says to be so Psychotic

How can you honestly be so blatantly discriminatory, while acting like you somehow have better moral judgement than the people building this mosque?

 

[The Witch]

No, sorry. They can build a Mosque anywhere else. Nothing's stopping them.

 

[Saints&Storms]

No, sorry. They can build a Mosque anywhere else. Nothing's stopping them.

PB thats like someone buidling a Nazism Church (Whatever the hell they are called?)...in the home-land of The Jewish.

Or the Citiznes of New York should vote for or against it. Its really the only fair way.

 

[CassinoChips]

No, sorry. They can build a Mosque anywhere else. Nothing's stopping them.

What's stopping them from building a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero? Again, not *on* Ground Zero, but two blocks away from it. Because it might offend some people? The people that would be offended by this are exactly the people that the Cordoba Institute needs to reach, because they are anti-Islamic. Or, at the very least, they have significant misconceptions about the Islamic religion.

I bet there's a church within a two block radius of the Branch-Davidian complex in Waco.

I bet there are churches within two blocks of any of the abortion clinic bombings.

If you truly believe in the freedom of religion, there is no way you can support the restricition of this mosque.

Or the Citiznes of New York should vote for or against it. Its really the only fair way.

Again, that would fly in the face of the First Amendment.

 

[Rasputin]

PB thats like someone buidling a Nazism Church (Whatever the hell they are called?)...in the home-land of The Jewish.

Or the Citiznes of New York should vote for or against it. Its really the only fair way.

Nazism isn't a religion, it's a political movement. And you've never heard of a little thing called Israel? For Pete's sake. "Home-land of The Jewish"... for Pete's sake. You do realize that we're supposed to look DOWN on generalizing entire groups of people and restricting their freedoms based on the actions of a few foreign extremists? The same sort of logic you're giving was used to justify the interment of over 100,000 Americans of Japanese descent in World War 2.

 

[der Astronom]

No, they really can't. With the enormous amount of lies and discrimination over Muslims that is prevalent among the conservative portion of this nation it is quite difficult for them to build a mosque in ANY urban center without dealing with protests. The fact is that poverty and a culture of violence caused these people to become terrorists, not the religion. Putting a mosque here will show once again that the vast majority of Muslims are productive members of society.

But there are other, less expensive ways of showing that muslims can be productive members of society. You don't need a mosque for any of that. A mosque is just a religious building for muslims to practice their personal beliefs--how does building a mosque for exclusively one religion, of which most Americans don't share in common help a muslim's image? Most Americans don't feel the need to step into a mosque because they aren't muslims, and even if they could stop feeling so hostile towards them, they don't feel like they have any business in a mosque because they aren't muslims, and don't need to be in order not to be hostile towards muslims.

How can you honestly be so blatantly discriminatory, while acting like you somehow have better moral judgement than the people building this mosque?

That's what the majority of Americans and other Westeners believe about the muslims. And it's impossible to prove them "wrong" about it; it's all there in the Qu'ran. Go take a look yourself. However, that doesn't mean muslims don't have a chance at reforming a moderate Islam, not any different from modern day Christianity. They just need to start small. Kind of like what atheists are doing now. Writing books, making bus ads, giving speeches and all that jazz. Oh ja, before I forget. The Internet is a much more marketable place for proving your point than physical property is.

And that's also precisely the reason why I don't think it's a good idea for muslims to be building a mosque where their terrorists blew up the towers; it would be kind of like a statement of power. Here used to be two towers that represented the United States of America; now instead, they've given up and let the terrorists who blew up the towers build their buildings there. I'm not saying muslims aren't legally allowed to build their mosques wherever they want; but they'd be pissing off a lot of people in the process. It's not good for their image, and they'd be defeating the whole point of putting it there in the first place.

 

[CassinoChips]

Here used to be two towers that represented the United States of America; now instead, they've given up and let the terrorists who blew up the towers build their buildings there.

Pretty sure the terrorists who blew up the WTC are dead.

Not all Muslims are terrorists. Not all Muslims believe every word the Qur'an puts forth. That's like saying all Christians believe that if a man or woman is caught committing adultery, s/he should be stoned to death. Or that no one is allowed to shave or cut their hair. By lumping all Muslims in together with the extremists, you're proving exactly why this mosque should be built.

 

[Channizard]

Frankly, I would think it would be disrespectful to America for anybody to build anything on Ground Zero. Doesn't have to be a Mosque, they could attempt to build a book store or a mall, or a Christian Church, I would assume that anything there would just be... wrong.

 

[Aselia]

But that is the point... nothing is being built ON Ground Zero. People are having a shit fit over a mosque being built two blocks away from Ground Zero... I honestly don't see how a religious group exercising their right to freely practice their religion where they wish is disrespectful. Especially when they aren't doing anything that might antagonize the families of the victims.. I could understand if it were called the Osama bin Laden Mosque or some shit, and if they were mocking or doing something to upset the families of the victims... but when they aren't doing anything at all but being there, I feel the people who are disrespectful are the ones protesting.

The Mosque is 2 blocks away! It'd really be like telling Christians that they may not build a church in X location because it is in the proximity of where the Inquisition, or the Crusades took place... it's absolutely ludicrous that anyone can see the building mosque as being "disrespectful". Are all Muslims now being held responsible for the attacks, and I wasn't made aware? That's what it would seem like, which is sad, because if people really took the time to listen instead of just declare something to be evil because of one act, then they would realize that one group of terrorist radicals does not automatically make the rest of the religion bad. As I stated before, it would essentially be the same as claiming that because of the Crusades, Christians are not allowed to do this, or that, which would never happen. Why should people of the Muslim faith be punished for what one group of individuals did then?

 

[Channizard]

But that is the point... nothing is being built ON Ground Zero. People are having a shit fit over a mosque being built two blocks away from Ground Zero...

Wait... really? I missed that bit. xD

Well really, seems like people are throwing a shit fit over nothing then.

 

[Rasputin]

That's what the majority of Americans and other Westeners believe about the muslims. And it's impossible to prove them "wrong" about it; it's all there in the Qu'ran. Go take a look yourself. However, that doesn't mean muslims don't have a chance at reforming a moderate Islam, not any different from modern day Christianity. They just need to start small. Kind of like what atheists are doing now. Writing books, making bus ads, giving speeches and all that jazz. Oh ja, before I forget. The Internet is a much more marketable place for proving your point than physical property is.

The mere presence of a mosque there would send a more powerful message to America and the rest of the world than any internet campaign would. Besides, there is a key difference between Atheists and Muslims in terms of educating the public- Atheists tell other people what to believe, where as these Muslims are simply try to explain what they believe in. Judging from the reactions of these protesters, they clearly could use a cultural center to show them that Islam as practiced in America almost unanimously condemns the actions of terrorists.

And that's also precisely the reason why I don't think it's a good idea for muslims to be building a mosque where their terrorists blew up the towers; it would be kind of like a statement of power. Here used to be two towers that represented the United States of America; now instead, they've given up and let the terrorists who blew up the towers build their buildings there. I'm not saying muslims aren't legally allowed to build their mosques wherever they want; but they'd be pissing off a lot of people in the process.

The terrorists gave up on the foundations of Islam the instant they stepped onto that plane. We shouldn't even be calling them Muslims, as they sure were not acting like one. They shamed the religion be claiming it to be something that it is not, and the political groups that sponsored them

 

[Channizard]

Besides, there is a key difference between Atheists and Muslims in terms of educating the public- Atheists tell other people what to believe, where as these Muslims are simply try to explain what they believe in.

Query, what do Atheists tell people to believe, when they don't believe in anything themselves?

 

[SaShman]

Frankly, I would think it would be disrespectful to America for anybody to build anything on Ground Zero.

The thing is though that it is not actually being built on Ground Zero. It is being built near (as in a few blocks from) Ground Zero.

Oh wait, nevermind their murderous Qur'an says to be so Psychotic

The bible says a lot of dodgy things too, yet people don't assume all Christians are terrorists.

The problem with the Qur'an lies with the concept of Ijitihad (Free interpretation of the Islamic doctrine).
While it's not necessarily a bad thing, it does give people like Bin Laden the opportunity to use the Qur'an to justify terrorism. Another issue is the fact that Islam doesn't have a central leader (unlike catholicism for example which has the Pope) who can condemn Islamic terrorist groups. Add the increasing isolation of Muslims in western society, the new communicative possibilities of the internet along with the relativity recent decolonization and you have a problem on your hands as extremists now have the means to spread their messages and the ways to justify it.

Denying Muslims with genuine intentions the right to build a mosque would only make things worse and would isolate Muslims in the US even more than now. Furthermore, it's only illustrating the hypocrisy and xenophobia of the US.

To be frank the recent draw Muhammad day (an event which many Muslims found offensive) indicated that some people are using the guise of Freedom of speech to mask their own prejudices. Now that these plans to build a mosque are here, they are saying "Oh no don't do this it's offensive" even though they are going against the fundamentals of free expression in the process.What you reap is what you sow.

 

[Rasputin]

Query, what do Atheists tell people to believe, when they don't believe in anything themselves?

Evolution, common sense humanism, and the belief that religion as a whole is utter codswallop. You really need to listen to some Richard Dawkins if you honestly think that they "don't believe in anything themselves".

 

[Channizard]

My mistake, I was thinking of Agnostics.

I retract my former statement.

 

[der Astronom]

Pretty sure the terrorists who blew up the WTC are dead.

Those particular terrorists may be, but muslim terrorists still exist. Just yesterday, three Buddhists were shot down by muslims. And last month, they bombed a concert hall in Russia. A few months ago, 23 Christians were injured by muslims when they hear they were trying to build a church. At least nobody got killed over plans for a new mosque near a certain burial ground.
Try telling me they're dead again.

Not all Muslims are terrorists. Not all Muslims believe every word the Qur'an puts forth. That's like saying all Christians believe that if a man or woman is caught committing adultery, s/he should be stoned to death. Or that no one is allowed to shave or cut their hair. By lumping all Muslims in together with the extremists, you're proving exactly why this mosque should be built.

If muslims want to convince anyone that they're not violent, they need to start with themselves first. They need to do something about the people that are giving them their bad image before they try appealing to us. Otherwise, they'll end up pissing people off, and pissing people off isn't a good way to prove a point. And until they can show people that they can be moderate and won't kill people for disagreeing, I don't think Americans would be willing to let them build their mosques anywhere as someone earlier alluded to.

The mere presence of a mosque there would send a more powerful message to America and the rest of the world than any internet campaign would. Besides, there is a key difference between Atheists and Muslims in terms of educating the public- Atheists tell other people what to believe, where as these Muslims are simply try to explain what they believe in. Judging from the reactions of these protesters, they clearly could use a cultural center to show them that Islam as practiced in America almost unanimously condemns the actions of terrorists.

No it wouldn't; only people living in New York have easy access to such a mosque. I could care less if I ever got to see that mosque or not. And I suspect people who are either too busy or too ignorant to care would bother to learn about how moderate muslims can be just because some mosque got built. The Internet, however, is much more easily accessible, and straight to the point. A mosque? That's way too ambiguous. It doesn't explain anything. That mosque could belong to muslims who are like terrorists, or it could belong to muslims who aren't.

And it doesn't matter how atheists or muslims explain to people how they believe, or even what to believe (besides, there are muslims guilty of the latter anyways). Just because you think atheists use the Internet to tell people what to believe doesn't mean muslims can't use the Internet to tell people what they believe. All the protesters need is evidence that Islam is reforming itself. And that won't happen until moderate muslims do something about the people causing their religion to suffer.

The terrorists gave up on the foundations of Islam the instant they stepped onto that plane. We shouldn't even be calling them Muslims, as they sure were not acting like one. They shamed the religion be claiming it to be something that it is not, and the political groups that sponsored them

Actually, if you read the Qu'ran, you'll see plenty of verses backing up what they say. It's like all those horrid things in the bible about slavery, gays and apostasy. It's really not any different. The only difference is that moderate muslims don't act on those things, while terrorists do. So same religion, different people.

Evolution, common sense humanism, and the belief that religion as a whole is utter codswallop. You really need to listen to some Richard Dawkins if you honestly think that they "don't believe in anything themselves".

The majority of atheists accept evolution; they don't believe it on blind faith, just as you wouldn't be expected to on any other scientific theory. Common sense and humanism are things that come from experience; it doesn't come from blind faith either. The whole idea of religion being a sugarcoated turd is an opinion; you don't need blind faith for that either.
And if you did listen to Richard Dawkins, you'll see he doesn't really believe in anything on blind faith. He admits not knowing 100% that god exists, but doesn't believe in god either for the same reason you don't believe in the fairies at the bottom of the garden (I can't believe we went there again for the umpteenth time...)