Protesters descend on Ground Zero for anti-mosque demonstration

[CassinoChips]

How can you say not all Muslims are extremists when their own religion tells them to murder in the name of Allah?

To put it simply, because not all Muslims are extremists. Because they don't undertake extremist acts. If it neither walks like a duck, nor talks like a duck, it can't be classified as a Muslim extremist. (Or duck.) Are those elements in the Qur'an? Yes. No one's denying that. Do all Muslims follow every word of the Qur'an? No. Because, like Christians, they pick and choose which parts of their holy text are applicable to their lives. Unless, of course, you're advocating that we start stoning adulterers.

 

[der Astronom]

How many of those were American Muslims? That's who this mosque will serve. When is the last time you heard of an American-born Muslim, or a naturalized Muslim citizen, committing an act of terror on American soil? I can't think of any. If we're going to start penalizing American citizens for actions taken by people around the world of similar ethnic and/or religious backgrounds, we're setting a dangerous precedent.

Perhaps not, but I don't see any American muslims doing anything good for their religion. Last I checked, organizations like CAIR didn't do anything good for their religion's image. In fact, I think they're "in trouble" with the FBI for having certain associations with radical muslims, and they won't criticize the activity of muslim terrorists including Osama bin Laden. If even the largest group of muslim civil liberties won't even start by criticizing the things that make Americans think less of muslims and promote a more modern Islam, what makes you think building a mosque is going to change anything? I think that's partly why most Americans don't have a good image of muslims.
Just because they're not blowing up buildings doesn't indicate that they are modern muslims. They're using our free speech here to promote a radical Islam, or they're not using it to do what you hoped they would do.

Moreover, there are approximately 1 billion Muslims in the world. Again, to penalize the Muslims in America, of whom the vast majority have no ties ideologically or otherwise to any terrorist group, is ridiculous. And is in direct opposition to the First Amendment. On the world stage, the extremists are a minority. Yes, they can use the Qur'an to justify their beliefs. Just like, as you said, slaveholders justified their actions through use of the Bible. That doesn't mean that the Bible was/is an evil text. That doesn't mean that all Christians were/are slaveholding racists. So why, now, does it mean that Islam is a religion of hate and all Muslims are terrorists?

Are you sure? The largest group of them apparently do. They're just not so open about it. I'm not even sure why you're talking about penalizing muslims in America; I never said anything about prosecuting them. I just listed examples of radical Islam that still exist.
I actually disagree because I think both the bible and the Qu'ran are evil. But since evil is not an objective term, it is just my opinion that they're evil. Feel free to disagree if you'd like. People can make either book seem less evil by emphasizing whichever phrases they like. People emphasize most of the New Testament (except for Revelations) now because of the Enlightenment. If there were a reason to emphasize the more "peaceful" verses in the Qu'ran, it is because the majority of the world conforms to Western ideals. But if we had none of these things, any one interpretation cannot be said to be "correct". Such a thing does not exist because you can't get an objective reading of any holy text. They're much too metaphorical.
However, I never said that all muslims are terrorists. I just said that moderate muslims need to prove themselves not terrorists. And they can do that by protesting whenever a radical muslim murders people in the name of Islam, criticizing radical muslims when they use the Qu'ran to justify violent actions, and emphasizing parts of the Qu'ran that aren't so violent. However, I think Islam is not a religion of peace. No matter how much sugarcoating you put on it, there still remains many verses related to violence and murder. You can't just wave those things away.

The vast majority of Muslims have never committed an act of terrorism. Historically, more Christians have committed acts of terrorism than Muslims.

That's because Christians have been given more time and less restraint for that. There was no such thing as the Enlightenment back then. While they were going on their historical rampages, the majority of muslims lived in a golden age. Instead, I think it better to avoid an impending disaster and prevent repeating history.

What better way to show it then building a mosque? A house of prayer?

That's too ambiguous. A mosque is a statement of religion; it doesn't say anything about whether or not they're moderate. And if a mosque is a statement of a particularly violent religion, it's not a good way of showing that muslims are nice.

Who says they have to? Do I have to answer for the transgressions of other Americans? Of other Caucasians? Of other males? Hell, of the Catholic Church? If that last one were the case, I need to start apologizing now, because I'll be at it for the rest of my life. I think it's safe to assume that the majority of Muslims, who are peaceable, moderate people, understand that the WTC being attacked was a bad thing. It is not their fault the crazies of their religion did something stupid. Just like it's not my fault that the Catholic Church covered up the pedophilia of priests for so long. Yet no one is preventing Catholic schools being run by priests.

I wasn't saying they had to. Stop with the strawmen fallacies, please.
Muslims can start by protesting the actions of other muslims that make them look bad. If you are caucasian, and you find other caucasians are promoting racism, you can protest them. If you find men are being misogynists, you can criticize them. If the Catholic Church condones child molestation, you can create an online petition against it and get people to support it. I'm not saying you have to do these things, but if you feel strongly about any of these things, or if you don't like it when people have the wrong impression of you on the basis of your race, gender or religion, it would be in your best interests to express your disapproval. You can't expect people to suddenly change their minds and stop being racist, misogynist or exploiting of children. They won't change until you or someone else criticizes them. And what better way to do so than to get it directly from the horse's mouth.

Exactly! Moderate Muslims understand, much as moderate Christians do in regards to the Bible, that there are certain things in the Qur'an which simply aren't applicable to today. So why are we punishing the entire populace for the idiocy of a few?

We are? I just said I don't like the idea of them building the mosque; I never said they weren't allowed to. I just don't like that idea because it's too vague as a message, if it were intended to show people that muslims are moderate, and a mosque in and of itself doesn't symbolize unity between Islam and other people from other religions.

There are just as many violent, racist, insensitive Christians as there are Muslims. Are you telling me they can't build a church near Ground Zero either? Obviously there would be no fuss over that, because these protesters are hypocritical scumbags who are hiding their bigoted, racist nature behind a wall of self righteousness. The vast majority of Americans, when it comes right down to it, are not against allowing well intentioned people to build a house of worship for the benefit of the community.

No, I am not. Please read carefully what I said and try again.
And are they really well-intentioned? I need evidence. Not say-so's.

It's OBVIOUSLY going to belong to Muslims who aren't terrorists. Did you read who is building this Mosque? It isn't Al Qaeda! It's isn't the Taliban! There isn't going to be any terrorist teachings inside of this house of worship.

How can you be so sure? Just because they don't openly identify themselves with groups that are well known to be radical muslims doesn't mean they aren't. And since Islam has teachings of violence that lead to terrorism, I have a hard time believing that.

The protesters are what is wrong with America, not the Muslims. The goal of this mosque should not be to appease these people, but to show without a doubt that these bigots are completely blind to the realities of Islam. Who knows, if they actually step into this mosque they may realize that a good deal of the Muslim community as a whole is working actively to fight these extremist groups.

Appeasing the protesters and showing people that muslims can be moderate are equivalent. Otherwise, how can you show people that muslims can be moderate without appeasing them? That's exactly how you appease them!

And if you think they're as bigoted and ignorant as you think they are, I doubt they'd have any interest in stepping into such a mosque.

Another thought. How do you know they are working actively to fight these extremist groups?

I have to strongly disagree with you there. The Qu'ran does not encourage individual preachers of the faith to kill innocent civilians simply as a political statement. The explanation of Jihad on Wikipedia gives more information about this. Regardless, once again I ask- would you have a problem with a Christian church built near Ground Zero?

That's another strawman attack. I did not say the Qu'ran encourages preachers to kill civilians on a political statement, I said it encourages teachings of violence and hate, as suggested by the comparison between the bible's messages on slavery, gays and apostasy.
And that's actually a good question. Why didn't they decide to build a Christian church in commemoration of the people who died there, the majority of which are Christian instead? In other words, why did they decide to build a building there that is exclusive to muslims, and not a building that represents a compromise between the people who died there and the muslims who are moderate, and had nothing to do with all of that? A mosque can do neither because it says nothing with respect to which muslims are intended to use that mosque, and it does nothing for the people who died there, or for the people that are still alive and were their friends and knew them well.

Yes people do need blind faith for religion, because there's absolutely no evidence that any religion is even in the least bit correct. Evolution and scientific reasoning in general have long been proved by material evidence and repeated trials. However, we also tolerate religion in society because it makes people happy and it creates a sense of community and culture that can hold people together.

Only to a certain extent. If religion gets to the point of interfering with other people's lives, and harming those who should have nothing to do with your personal beliefs, then it goes too far, and it is no longer a matter of religious freedom, but the infringing upon of other people's freedoms and privileges. And I do not believe that religious freedom should be above the privileges of another person towards life and freedom.
In fact, religious freedom defeats itself. If you can claim the religious freedom to practice a religion that condemns those who commit apostasy, religious freedom has just shot itself in the foot.
Another note. Atheism is not a religion. It is a lack of religion. If you don't have a religion, the default position is not believing in a deity or anything beyond what we can sense and measure objectively. That is what it means to be an atheist.

Simply put- these protesters are no better than the racist people in Arizona getting upset over the portraits in a school mural being painted in too dark a skin tone. They continue to ignore reality in order to promote their hate speech, and we should not consider compromising religious and cultural freedoms to fit their views.

I'm not going to be arrogant and claim that I know what the reality of this situation is. All I'm suggesting is that moderate muslims should use a less vague way of getting their point across. I don't think a mosque is a good way of doing it. You're just promoting something that brings along a stigma that many people have of it, and it is the stigma itself that needs to be abolished. You're not going to get rid of it by shoving it into someone's face.

-Ishaq did not write the Qur'an, but a biography on the life of Mohammed. His writing should not be taken as an authoritative religious document, but simply as a record of the early era of Islam.

-Mohammed repeatedly makes clear that non-combatants should not be victims of warfare. Hence his prohibitions against the killing of women, children, and the elderly.

-Islam came to existence in a very violent and divisive time in Middle Eastern history. Tribes were often engaged in decades long bloody power struggles, and sets of laws could change overnight with the overthrow of one set of leaders. The religion did not attempt to end warfare so much as regulate it, and took a very hard stand against anarchy and banditry. Fighting to preserve order and peace is considered righteous, as without it the very existence of Islam would be threatened.

-The term "disbelievers" refers to those who had been personally shown unquestionable evidence of the existence of Allah and still chose to disbelieve it. The only ones who were authorized to do so were Muhammed and his closest associates. Because they've all long since passed away, usage of many of these quotes is irrelevant when attempting to define Muslim philosophy. They should be taken as historical records.

As a counterpoint, I can cite numerous examples of the Christian god and his prophets butchering people simply for getting in the way or not accepting the Hebrew faith. Elijah ordering the mass murder of the prophets of Baal comes to mind, so does the needless slaughter at Jehrico. Like the points above, though, these should be taken as historical records and not blatant endorsements of violence to spread the religion.

This would actually be good material for a moderate muslim to be promoting. It's unambiguous that they don't intend to be violent, and they are emphasizing parts of the Qu'ran that make their beliefs less violent. It's not exactly completely honest, just as modern Christianity isn't, but at least it's better than the violent messages that radical muslims promote.

It's because there is a double standard where the Quran is demonised and the Bible isn't. There are passages that are just as heinous as ones found in the Quran, yet, we don't have people stoning their children or killing gays. (for the most part)

That's a red herring though because we are talking about the atrocities of the Qu'ran and the stuff it's made people do. Sure, the bible has its fair share of atrocities, but that's another topic for another time. But if you can provide a relevant discussion that links the atrocities in the bible with (not) building a mosque near Ground Zero, then that's alright.

Why do you think lots of people from the Middle East want to come to America?

There may be lots of reasons for this. For a moderate muslim, it means the freedom and privileges they weren't allowed when or if they lived near the Middle East. For a radical muslim, it means promoting their brand of Islam in a place that doesn't quite accept it. It's an incentive they believe they have that will bring them closer to paradise, according to their religious beliefs. And already, Sharia Law is taking root in Britain.

 

[Terra Branford]

Have you willfully ignored all the posts that rebut your argument.
All it is, is quotes you've chosen to support your absurd idea that muslims want to kill you. Most religions, christianity included have these same motifs. Kill and torture non-believers, enslave people etc.
If you and anyone else was being objective they'd say the same thing about Christianity. But Christians are white, they wouldn't do anything bad.


No Christians wouldn't invade Iraq, nor would Jews murder people on ships carryng aid. Only darkies do that.

I'm terribly sorry, Emma Pollock, if you can't read the Qu'ran and understand just how violent it is.

I don't give a rat's ass quiet frankly, if you think the Christians or say the Christians, are just as violent or near the same kind of level. You bring up verses from the Old Testament, which was before Jesus, we bring up verses of murder from present Qu'ran translated verses and past verses from the Qu'ran. They all call for the death of non-believers.

The fact that my arguments and quotes from their holy book is being ignored, means I made up great points you cannot counter-act, except with "Not all Muslims are like that." or maybe "Christians that!" or "Christians this!".

To put it simply, because not all Muslims are extremists. Because they don't undertake extremist acts. If it neither walks like a duck, nor talks like a duck, it can't be classified as a Muslim extremist. (Or duck.) Are those elements in the Qur'an? Yes. No one's denying that. Do all Muslims follow every word of the Qur'an? No. Because, like Christians, they pick and choose which parts of their holy text are applicable to their lives. Unless, of course, you're advocating that we start stoning adulterers.

Please read what I provided and said at the end of my post.

Muslims have to kill non-believers and follow everything Qu'ran tells them to. If they don't, they aren't Muslims. For goodness sake, I provided a verse from their holy book where Allah commands the death of non-believers. What more do I have to bring to this?

I'm trying to simplify it more than I already have, but I just can't >.<

Maybe an example will help? Of what I mean...?

If I said I was Christian, but didn't follow everything the Bible told me to, then I wouldn't be a Christian, correct? If God told me to kill non-believers (which he doesn't) to be a true Christian and I didn't partake in the orders from my God and didn't kill non-believers, I wouldn't be a Christian.

Now if I followed what my God told me to, then I would be a Christian. Although, God would never ask his followers to search out non-believers and murder them in the most disgusting ways possible, I was just trying to elaborate an already elaborated post.

My point is, if a Muslim says "I don't kill non-believers!" then he or she, isn't a Muslim because to be a Muslim, you have to devote yourself to Allah and kill non-believers.

Think of it like what Collage kids do. They have to have a little...jee, I forget the word for it, but they have to do certain things before they are accepted into the group.

Muslims must bring down non-believers to be a Muslim.

The people you talk about being "peaceful" are obviously not Muslims. They cannot be Muslim if they want non-believers alive and wouldn't cause them harm. Allah and the Qu'ran clearly tell the followers to follow EVERY command given to them.

For poo-bear's sanity, you have to pray in Arabic to be a Muslim and go to their "heaven". That only proves my point of Muslims having to follow everything said in Qu'ran, or they aren't a Muslim.

 

[der Astronom]

Have you willfully ignored all the posts that rebut your argument.
All it is, is quotes you've chosen to support your absurd idea that muslims want to kill you. Most religions, christianity included have these same motifs. Kill and torture non-believers, enslave people etc.
If you and anyone else was being objective they'd say the same thing about Christianity. But Christians are white, they wouldn't do anything bad.

And they have actually done these things. If you're going to add Christianity for comparison, just take a look at their history. Christianity has had its Dark Ages, where they did torture heretics, kill witches and enslave people.

The modern Christianity that you see now is really just secularism in disguise. Of course, most people won't admit it, and the thing that separates them from true secularists is a belief in god and Jesus being their savior.

 

[Donald Trump]

I don't give a rat's ass quiet frankly, if you think the Christians or say the Christians, are just as violent or near the same kind of level. You bring up verses from the Old Testament, which was before Jesus, we bring up verses of murder from present Qu'ran translated verses and past verses from the Qu'ran. They all call for the death of non-believers.

No, in fact it's quite difficult to express how fundamentally wrong you are. If what you say is true, which it isn't, there would either be 0 muslims or everyone would be a muslim. As that's not the case you are wrong.

The fact that my arguments and quotes from their holy book is being ignored, means I made up great points you cannot counter-act, except with "Not all Muslims are like that." or maybe "Christians that!" or "Christians this!".

That's because you are a hypocrite. You can't understand that you are wrong. They aren't being ignored they're being explained. You argument is, the Koran says this, so muslims are bad, horrible, evil people. The bible says exactly the same kind of thing, yet Christians aren't vile baddies.

Maybe an example will help? Of what I mean...?

If I said I was Christian, but didn't follow everything the Bible told me to, then I wouldn't be a Christian, correct? If God told me to kill non-believers (which he doesn't) to be a true Christian and I didn't partake in the orders from my God and didn't kill non-believers, I wouldn't be a Christian.

No, you're completely wrong again. That's not what it means to be a christian. In Leviticus, where is has the stuff about homosexuality it also has that you shouldn't eat shellfish. Most Christians do eat shellfish, very very few Christians follow the bible exactly. The same with the Koran, or the Torah etc etc.

I even think you might be a troll, anyone that thinks peaceful people can't be muslims is either a troll, or a milfybro.

 

[SaShman]

Muslims have to kill non-believers and follow everything Qu'ran tells them to. If they don't, they aren't Muslims. For goodness sake, I provided a verse from their holy book where Allah commands the death of non-believers.

Muhammad lived from around 570 to 632. During this time, the various tribes in Arabia fought amongst each other in order to survive. The Byzantine empire as well Western Europe (Which had recently converted to Christianity) posed a serious threat to these Arabian tribes. Muhammad's legacy was able to unite these tribes under Islam and protect their culture from these threats. If you place the Qur'an into proper context ie the time in which it was written, it actually makes sense.

Obviously any rational thinking Muslim living in the modern world understands that some of the things in the Qur'an are irrelevant today. Just like how any rational Christian understands that they shouldn't kill everyone who curses their parents.

 

[Ewan]

Hal and SaShman pretty much covered what I was going to say but I wanted to address something.

I don't give a rat's ass quiet frankly, if you think the Christians or say the Christians, are just as violent or near the same kind of level. You bring up verses from the Old Testament, which was before Jesus, we bring up verses of murder from present Qu'ran translated verses and past verses from the Qu'ran. They all call for the death of non-believers.

You just sweep the OT under the carpet. Probably because you won't be able to convince anyone that the God of the OT was a moral and righteous one. In my experience, it makes Christians uncomfortable and they are embarrassed by the blemish on the record of a God they are trying to make out as being the 'good guy'.

Also Jesus said this:

Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18 )

I have brought it up before. What do you think it means? Maybe I've misinterpreted.
But more importantly, you still follow the 10 commandments which is part of the OT. Even you are cherry picking.

 

[Rydia]

I don't really want to get into this debate but I wanted to say something about jihad.

In my first year of college, I took a world religions class. One assignment was to visit two religious centers other than our own. There were scheduled optional field trips and one was a mosque, where I went.

No muslim at the mosque tried to convert us but we were allowed to ask any question we wanted and they were happy to answer any because they get some sort of blessing for educating others. Of course, someone asked about Jihad. Our guide explained to us that for them, it was the inner struggle of getting closer to Allah and achieving inner peace. It may also include forsaking sin and controlling anger. There is outer jihad, but inner is considered greater.

These were definently "moderate" muslims.

They also noted that the Qu'ran should only be taken in a contextual sense due to the time it was written and that most of it would not apply today.

Their religion is also up with the times as they welcome science and see it as part of Allahs wonderful and complex creation. And many of their women attend university regularly (many were in medical and law school, and women are welcome into their religoius discussions. Hell Muhammed's wife owned her own business. The hijab (head cover) is also optional to wear, many of the women choose to do so.

It was also interesting because they had the most diverse group of people I've ever seen in a religious organization. Our guide was of Indian descent. Most of the muslims at the mosque that day were African American. And there were few middle eastern and Asian.

So the ones wanting to build the mosque in New York may not even be of middle eastern descent.

And I said before, there are groups trying to promote moderate Islam

Muslims against terrorism http://www.freemuslims.org/

http://www.m-a-t.org/

Probably the best http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

There is also a hotline you can call for questions.

I really didn't mean to go off onto all of that.

 

[Terra Branford]

No, in fact it's quite difficult to express how fundamentally wrong you are. If what you say is true, which it isn't, there would either be 0 muslims or everyone would be a muslim. As that's not the case you are wrong.

Oh, so the Qu'ran isn't true? What part of it coming from their "bible" isn't true?

That's because you are a hypocrite. You can't understand that you are wrong. They aren't being ignored they're being explained. You argument is, the Koran says this, so muslims are bad, horrible, evil people. The bible says exactly the same kind of thing, yet Christians aren't vile baddies.

No, you never explain why the Qu'ran says to murder. You make a point in ignoring it by saying "Not all Muslims are extremists" or "Not all Muslims are like that".



And no, the bible doesn't tell me to kill non-believers. You are so wrong, I'm laughing right now as I write.

No, you're completely wrong again. That's not what it means to be a christian. In Leviticus, where is has the stuff about homosexuality it also has that you shouldn't eat shellfish. Most Christians do eat shellfish, very very few Christians follow the bible exactly. The same with the Koran, or the Torah etc etc.

I even think you might be a troll, anyone that thinks peaceful people can't be muslims is either a troll, or a milfybro.

Wait, you, a non-Christian is tryin' to tell me what it means to be Christian? That was a freakin' example of how the Muslims needed to DO EVERYTHING in the Qu'ran to be A MUSLIM.

I used "Christian" because you people are so crazy, I thought using the term you guys hate, would help you understand it better.

Guess I underestimated your intelligence.


IF you can't comprehend that the Qu'ran says to its followers that "If you don't follow EVERY RULE! (Should I explain what this means? Or can you handle it?) Then you are not a child of my faith."

Please, I've read the Qu'ran time and time again. Don't argue with me.

You're justification of me pwning you is...that I'm a troll? Sounds like someone wants me to hurry and get out and stop provin' you wrong.

EDIT:
Fixed a few errors.

 

[Rydia]

Oh, so the Qu'ran isn't true? What part of it coming from their "bible" isn't true?



No, you never explain why the Qu'ran says to murder. You make a point in ignoring it by saying "Not all Muslims are extremists" or "Not all Muslims are like that".



And no, the bible doesn't tell me to kill non-believers. You are so wrong, I'm laughing right now as I write.




Wait, you, a non-Christian is tryin' to tell me what it means to be Christian? That was a freakin' example of how the Muslims needed to DO EVERYTHING in the Qu'ran to be A MUSLIM.

Well to be fair, you are a non muslim telling us how to be a muslim.

And all you need to do to be a muslim is say 'there is no god apart from God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.'

Do you do everything the bible says? Do you gauge out your eyes if you look at someone in lust? Do you expect others to do so?

And I'm sorry, but I kind of do not believe that you read the Qu'ran :/ I think you just copied and pasted.

 

[The Witch]

Quite frankly I would say the ladies of Bubblegum and Terra have won this.

Thanks Channy


I don't feel like debating this. But I just want to ask.

What do those violent quotes from the Qur'an mean when it says to terrorize and kill all nonbelievers? There's no taking it out of context, no paraphrasing, just direct quotes from the Qur'an.

Direct quotes that happen to say to "kill and terrorize all nonbelievers"

Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”

Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”


There is no defending those quotes. There is no way of explaining that non-Muslims are taking it to literally.

The Qur'an says time and time again, kill and terrorize nonbelievers.

I want someone to explain each of those quotes from the Qur'an. Explain how and why they're not literally meaning to kill and terrorize us all.

One more thing, I'll have everyone here know, CNN showed a Muslim(also visit 'Revolution Muslim') saying that he felt 9/11 was "justified" and that he "hated America and the citizens" and also that the Qur'an outright says to " kill and terrorize nonbelievers"

Go to 3:50 in this video

From the mouth of a Muslim, and I quote;

"We're commanded to terrorize the disbelievers"
"We're commanded to terrorize the disbelievers"
"We're commanded to terrorize the disbelievers"
"We're commanded to terrorize the disbelievers"
"We're commanded to terrorize the disbelievers"


The Islamic religion is violent. The Islamic religion led 19 men to kill 2000+ innocent people and injure 6000+ innocent people. The Islamic religion, as sad as it might be, is associated with the hoards of Muslims that boldy say they want nonbelievers to die.

That's the religion that will soon have a Mosque near the graves of innocent people. People that are gone forever.

This is why I don't(and obviously others)approve of this mosque being built there.

 

[Aselia]

Yet again you are blaming an entire religion for the acts of 19 men. You can't hold an entire religion responsible for the acts of a group of extremists who interpreted things differently. Nor can you base your entire opinion on a religion on the words of radicals... that's... asinine. There is no nice way to put it. It's being close minded and asinine. It's also shameful that so many people are so set on violating the rights of the people who wish to build the mosque. These people are American citizens with rights, and as such they are simply exercising their right to practice their religion freely.

 

[Rydia]

Just saying... If we're putting violent Qu'ran quotes.

How do you explain these?

Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . . . "

Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

Deuteronomy 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly . . . "

Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . "

Exodus 32:27 ". . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

Deut 21:10-12 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; "

Exodus 31:15 " . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Deut 21:21 "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die . . . "

 

[The Witch]

Yet again you are blaming an entire religion for the acts of 19 men. You can't hold an entire religion responsible for the acts of a group of extremists who interpreted things differently. Nor can you base your entire opinion on a religion on the words of radicals... that's... asinine. There is no nice way to put it. It's being close minded and asinine. It's also shameful that so many people are so set on violating the rights of the people who wish to build the mosque. These people are American citizens with rights, and as such they are simply exercising their right to practice their religion freely.

What's asinine is that you didn't read those quotes from the Qur'an. Read through those quotes. Then reread them again.

I'm not blaming all Muslims because of the 19 Hijackers. I'm disapproving of this Mosque because the Islamic religion tells its followers that they are, and I quote, "...commanded to terrorize the disbelievers".

That's the religion that caused 2000+ people to die on September 11th. That's why I don't want the Mosque built there. In respect of the 9/11 victims.

Please, before any further discussion. Watch that CNN video. Listen to what BOTH Muslims say. Then read those quotes from the Qur'an.

Then you'll see.

Just saying... If we're putting violent Qu'ran quotes.

How do you explain these?

Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . . . "

Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

Deuteronomy 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly . . . "

Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . "

Exodus 32:27 ". . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

Deut 21:10-12 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; "

Exodus 31:15 " . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Deut 21:21 "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die . . . " __________________

Those are of the Old Testament. The New Testament says nothing violent.

 

[Terra Branford]

Well to be fair, you are a non muslim telling us how to be a muslim.

And all you need to do to be a muslim is say 'there is no god apart from God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.'

Do you do everything the bible says? Do you gauge out your eyes if you look at someone in lust? Do you expect others to do so?

And I'm sorry, but I kind of do not believe that you read the Qu'ran :/ I think you just copied and pasted.

Well, I'm also not biased. Seeing as I've read the Bible and the Qu'ran. Basically, we follow the same thing...a little.

I could point you in the direction of a thread where I was providing self translation of the Qu'ran.

I'm sorry if you don't trust that I've read the Qu'ran, but you do realize that not all of the Qu'ran is available on the internet, right?

And, even if the case were true and I was copying and pasting, its still true. The only sites with the Qu'ran verses are those owned by Muslims.

Yet you claim that what they say and what the Qu'ran says, is biased.

Have you (all of you who assume things.) no ground to stand on in this debate?

I bet you guys don't even know their holidays, or certain foods they eat or have to eat.
My grandparents lived and worked there, and so did my mother. I know and she knows, a lot more than you think.

Actually, even if I didn't follow everything the Bible says, it also never tells me that if I don't follow every step, then I'm not a Christian. Answer that for ya?

EDIT:

People, learn the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. If you wish to attack Christians, at least do it right.

 

[Rydia]

But don't Christians still quote from the OT? Such as verses to condemn homosexuality? the ten commandments? King David? The creation story? Exodus? And wasn't Jesus a jew and read from the Torah?

EDIT @ Terra: I have taken a world religions class and Islam was a topic we covered. I know about ramadan, Hajj, their five pillars, and as I've said in a previous post, visited a mosque and had the opportunity to ask questions.

I didn't really want to get into this. I just found it strange to see Christians accusing another religion of being violent. And for the record, I was raised Catholic and still consider it part of my idenity even if I do not practice much.

 

[CassinoChips]

But don't Christians still quote from the OT? Such as verses to condemn homosexuality? the ten commandments? King David? The creation story? Exodus? And wasn't Jesus a jew and read from the Torah?

It's totally different. The Old Testament was written for a specific time and a specific group of people. One can't be expected to directly apply words and images that were created for a group of people that share very little in common with Christians today.

The Qur'an, on the other hand, was written for a specific time and a specific group of people. One can't be expected to directly apply words and images that were created for a group of people that share very little in common with Muslims today.

............... wait.................

 

[The Witch]

But don't Christians still quote from the OT? Such as verses to condemn homosexuality? the ten commandments? King David? The creation story? Exodus? And wasn't Jesus a jew and read from the Torah?

Yes, we do use it all the time. But the Violent scriptures from the Bible was added onto. Jesus said not to harm, judge, or kill others for ANY reason.

And, we're not talking about Christianity. A Christian led terrorist group didn't blow up areas across a nation killing thousands. A Christian church isn't being built near the graves of innocent people.

Again, this is about the Islamic religion telling Muslims to terrorize and kill all nonbelievers, therefor causing 19 people to kill thousands of citizens just because they're not Muslim.

If no one can counter those quotes from the Qur'an, if no one can counter the statements made by Islamic groups, then my point is proven.

 

[Rasputin]

No, you never explain why the Qu'ran says to murder.

IT DOESN'T. I've already disproved all of the horribly misinterpreted quotes posted in this thread, as the posters showed a clear failure to understand the historical relevance of the quotes at hand, and simple fact that because an idea is printed in one section of the book does not mean it cannot be refuted or revised later on. The Qur'an is a narrative as well as a religious text. Mohammed clarified or reinterpreted some of his earlier revelations as time and history progressed. You can't judge the religion just by looking at isolated examples.

And no, the bible doesn't tell me to kill non-believers. You are so wrong, I'm laughing right now as I write.

Did you bother to read the two examples I cited? Heck, just read through the book of Numbers, or Deuteronomy, it doesn't matter- taken literally the Bible is nothing but a textbook for mass murder. I'd go as far as to say that the Christian god is the most violent incarnation of any religious deity in the last millennium, and the supremacist viewpoint encouraged throughout the text has been used justify human atrocities from the Crusades to the enslavement of Africans to the mass murder in the Philippines. It is continued to be used today in Africa to justify Christian terrorist attacks against groups of Muslims. It's only thanks to the work of intelligent atheists that we aren't stuck in the horrible Puritan days. Until you're willing to denounce all religion entirely, not just Islam, I'm not willing to take your viewpoints seriously.

You're justification of me pwning you is...that I'm a troll? Sounds like someone wants me to hurry and get out and stop provin' you wrong.

You sound like someone straight out of Stormfront, spitting this hate speech without the slightest clue as to what the Muslim religion represents or the willingness to acknowledge that the First Amendment does not make exceptions based on your insane bastardizations of minorities. Do you hate Jews and black people too?

 

[Rydia]

Yes, we do use it all the time. But the Violent scriptures from the Bible was added onto. Jesus said not to harm, judge, or kill others for ANY reason.

And, we're not talking about Christianity. A Christian led terrorist group didn't blow up areas across a nation killing thousands. A Christian church isn't being built near the graves of innocent people.

Again, this is about the Islamic religion telling Muslims to terrorize and kill all nonbelievers, therefor causing 19 people to kill thousands of citizens just because they're not Muslim.

If no one can counter those quotes from the Qur'an, if no one can counter the statements made by Islamic groups, then my point is proven.

You need to read Cassino's posts then.

And the muslims that bombed the WTC were from the middle east which is only about 20% of the world's muslim population. (abouy 60% live in Asia). I honestly think the same thing would have happened if they had been Christian or Jews.

And I hate to use this as a citation. But saw a documentary in my world religions class about Muslims in Nigeria. Most of them praised Osama Bin Laden because they hated how the US had everything and was allowed to get away with everything. Could that have been part of the motive to attack NYC?