Protesters descend on Ground Zero for anti-mosque demonstration

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Do the American soldiers stoop to that level? No. Only Muslims do, because their religion calls for the death of innocents. No matter how many times you "claim" the religion doesn't. You're lying to yourself, or purposely lying, one of the two.
http://images.quickblogcast.com/80987-70899/Abu_Ghraib_prison19%5B1%5D.jpg

or

http://www.fixcas.com/news/2009/AbuGhraib.jpg

or

http://sirenschronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/torture-by-us-soldiers.jpe

or

http://fromtheleft.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/dogs2.jpg

or

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/AG-8.jpg

If you wish, I could find more.
 
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J said:
That's a red herring though because we are talking about the atrocities of the Qu'ran and the stuff it's made people do. Sure, the bible has its fair share of atrocities, but that's another topic for another time. But if you can provide a relevant discussion that links the atrocities in the bible with (not) building a mosque near Ground Zero, then that's alright.

How can you say it's a red herring? Cali (PB) and Terra are using double standards to demonise Muslims, and I pointed that out. This whole demonstration is based on those double standards and it turns people into bigots i.e. Terra who turn a blind eye to their hypocrisy.
 
1) No one could ever give you enough evidence to make you change your mind. Frankly, there's enough in this thread for that. If it hasn't happened by now, it's not going to happen.
You don't know that. So try.

2) Religious texts are open to interpretation. Two different people can look at the same words on the same page and come up with two wildly different versions of the same religion. That's why we have 48 million different denominations of Christianity, and probably an equal number of sects of Islam.
There's no way to have different interpretations of "kill and terrorize the nonbelievers." If you had watched the video I provided you would have heard from the lips of a Muslim that "the Qur'an says very clearly to terrorize and kill the disbelievers."

So. If a moderate Muslim says Islam is not a religion of hate and violence, are they correct? Yes. If a Muslim extremist uses Islam as a backdrop for hate and violence, are they correct? Yes. Because it's open to interpretation.
It's up for interpretation to a certain degree. A person's interpretation cannot change the fact that the Qur'an says to terrorize and kill all the disbelievers.

Wow... Adamant is the only person who had an actual idea of what it says.

The quotes taken are completely WRONG... first of all, you should know the translation of Qur'an is prohibited by the prophet, second of all, the prophet prohibited the murder of innocents or the torture of people. Extremists, however have a different idea of Islam, and to be quite honest, I believe terrorists are hired by the US Gov. to create a reason for it's wars.

How do I know your quotes are wrong, because I'm Arabic and I read the Qur'an, it doesn't say shit like that, for fuck sake it's even allowed for a Muslim to marry a non-believer. Tell me why would it order the murder of non-believers? Amuse me.
First of all, calm down, man. It's a debate.

Second of all. Why is it that Muslims say all the time to "terrorize and kill the disbelievers"? Again, watch that video I gave you and visit Revolution Muslim.

No Muslim should be blamed for the actions of those who lost their way. I'm a Catholic myself, but do you know how much it ticks me off when I hear that certain priests -- those who should know better -- make a bad example of the Church when they sexually molest children?
For the last time, I am not blaming all Muslims(Islamic people)for 9/11.
I am blaming the religion for leading 19 men to kill thousands of people because that's what the Qur'an tells followers to do.

Darkb1ade, :mokken:

So we do that and American soldiers are terrible monsters.
But if they tie us down in chairs and cut off our head in the name of Allah they're the good guys. Riiiight.



One more thing, for those of you bringing up the dark scriptures from the Bible and saying that Christians are just as violent as Muslims.

All I can say is, that matters on the person. Which isn't what I'm debating against.

Of course there are crazy Christians doing things in the name of God, just like there's crazy Muslims. But here's the difference.

One of the religious books commands its followers to terrorize and kill disbelievers and then has people act on what it tells them to do. The other just has stupid people acting on their own.

The bible never instructs Christians to terrorize and kill disbelievers. The Qur'an, however, does. And the Qur'an is the book that led a group of people to kill innocents.

If a crazy Christian walks into a building and kills all pedophiles in the name of God, that's just a crazy Christian using the bible as a facade to hide behind. Because the Bible doesn't say to kill.

If a crazy Muslim walks into a building and blows it up in the name of Allah, they're following what their Qur'an tells them to do. Literally!

Please, so this debate can be serious. Watch this video
Go to 3:50 in this video
Again, this Muslim says;
"We're commanded to terrorize the disbelievers"
 
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I've watched this video a long time ago, for your information and I still think it's kinda a weak source to support your attempts to demonize Muslims, First of all, yes Muslims are allowed to rage if their Prophet is mistreated by some people but it was ordered to talk it with them peacefully and if they refused they don't go killing, because that person might atone and if he didn't it's left up to "Allah" in the afterlife, no offense but seriously get a better source of your information than some person blabbing.

The religion, didn't ask the men to do that, you're just assuming thing, nor they did anything of what the Qur'an said.

You still don't read, you're just taking the the bits you like. That group is an extremists group and it's kinda obvious, there's no word in Qur'an, I repeat no word, that commands people to terrorize, they are just using a cover because you people don't even understand a thing and you will go ahead believing, or you are just believe the bad things and the good things are just lies?

Here's someone reading the Qur'an in Arabic but there's a translation unlike what you people are trying to make it look like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAAipWoO3C4

Of course if you went ahead and commented on the hell description, my answer would be "What do you want hell (in ANY religion) to be? Hot sun so you take a sun bath under it?"

Just one more thing, suicidal bombing like the ones you talk about won't send you to Heaven according to Islam, it will send you to hell, you know why? Because suicide itself is not allowed in ANY case. How they are following the Qur'an literally then? Also, any real Muslim, would know that the Qur'an never asked to kill Innocent people but the ones who are in battle. Men with no weapon, Old men, women and children killing isn't tolerated in the actual Islamic rules not the rules people like Al-Qaeda and what not comes up with.

Frankly, to be quite honest, I was an atheist, my parents didn't know because since they are Muslims I thought they will rage and what not but when they found out they were actually understanding, I did the same thing you did, started taking the verses I like but they kept giving me the next verse in which gave a TOTALLY different meaning to the previous one, I'm an agnostic now but if I were to take a religion, I would go for Islam from what I've seen of their generosity and respect.

You probably don't know this but Christians here KILL their children if they knew they changed to Islam.

Also, for Miss.Terra and you, I will find the passage in which it says, Muslims can marry Christians, Jews etc. Don't you think that contradicts what he said by kill all disbelievers?
 

You probably don't know this but Christians here KILL their children if they knew they changed to Islam.
Okay, I'm sorry...W-H-A-T? You're completely wrong about that first of all.

Second of all, so you're saying that the Qur'an doesn't say to kill and terrorize the disbelievers? Yes or no answer, please.
 
No, it doesn't say to kill the disbelievers. I did say only case in which they are allowed is when they are in war Army vs. Army.

You probably don't know this but Christians here KILL their children if they knew they changed to Islam.

Actually, I'm completely serious about this. They are killed if they change to Islam. I live in Jordan not where you live.

By the way, the verse is 5:5 that allows Muslims to marry Christians, Jews.
 
No, it doesn't say to kill the disbelievers. I did say only case in which they are allowed is when they are in war Army vs. Army.



Actually, I'm completely serious about this. They are killed if they change to Islam. I live in Jordan not where you live.

By the way, the verse is 5:5 that allows Muslims to marry Christians, Jews.


That's not what those parts of the Qur'an I read said.
 
Again, I say. You're reading a shallow translations, in all parts of Qur'an, it's says (self translation) "Fight the ones who fight you", in all Qur'an's explanations it says kill the ones who fight you.

From the start, I've seen your quotes. They are nothing like what Qur'an says, it's a poor translation.

Just like how they went wrong translating verse 5:51.

This what the translations say:
"O, you who believe [in the message of Muhammad], do not take Jews and Christians as "friends". They are "friends" to one another, and the one among you who turns to them is of them."

The word between quotations is supposed to be Guardians/Protectors aka giving up on your fellow Muslims, according to the medieval times explanations for a historical event.

Like I said before, you guys are just taking the things that looks bad to you and use it while you don't look at the good things, like:

"God does not forbid that you should deal kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for the sake of [your] religion or drive you out of your homes. Truly, God loves those who are just." [60:8]


"The good deed and the evil deed are not equal. Repel [the evil deed] with one that is better. Then truly the one, between you and he is enmity, shall become as a bosom friend." [41:34]

You, who claims you've read the Qur'an if you took a little bit of time to connect all verses together, would you still think ("Kill disbelievers" which is not true) Include the innocents and the not only the fighting ones?

Seriously, if you want to quote verses from Qur'an, please look at the historical event RELATED to that verse, that will give you a better understanding.

Of course, like you said some people do what you're exactly doing, they just READ without understanding what it means and apply it, to be quite honest if you were a Muslim, I'd definitely classify you between the ones, who would do everything literally due to not completing the whole thing and misunderstanding of context.

The way you kept getting verses and saying you read this and you read that, without digging deeper into it, makes it hard to talk with you, take a look at the historical events for these verses, have at least a bit more idea of what you're talking about.

EDIT: Just Noticed
PB said:
That's not what those parts of the Qur'an I read said.

Parts? You didn't even read it whole? Excuse me, but you're in no place to debate here, if you just read parts. =/
 
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Wow, there are a lot of replies. I'll get to them all, might have to, well, double post. ;)

LMAO. Wow just wow. That is all I can say to that.

And if we want to play the "you're lying!" game that I'll take responsiblity for starting. Intersting, that was kind of ment to bait you and it worked. How do we know that your mom really went to the middle east? That story you told just sound a little strange.

Wait, you're laughing because I asked for proof?

I can easily provide proof, if mother will let me even debate in this thread anymore. Pictures maybe, of her standing before buildings? Or maybe if pictures of the cats, clothes, home and various other things she was forced to leave behind? Will that be enough for you? I'd have to get permission, but I can still try.

Yes, you and a few others started to say my translations and my other proof, were lies or biased because they exploited everything that I'm saying and canceling out what you were saying.

So you went ahead and tried the lying game. I asked the same questions you did. If I am lying from my translations (laughs) then how can I trust that you aren't lying?

I know I'm not lying, because as a Christian, its a sin. But I have no idea what you guys can or will, do. ;)

And irrelevant but I'll say this. Most muslims I have met have been very kind and accepting of me. However, many other Christians have told me that my religion is evil for worshipping statues, and that I am going to hell for not being baptized into their religion.
Care to back up other than just silly little words? I see this as a lie blanketed over this thread to try and blame Christians.

Didn't work.
All I have to say is . . . Terra, if that's what you believe then that honestly--like to God, that scares me. That means that my Muslim friends should, if need be, kill me because I don't believe in their religion, hypothetically speaking, is that what you're implying?

Its not my fault what the Qu'ran says.
And hey, if your Muslim friends don't kill you, then they aren't Muslim. They are something else. All I am saying is, there can't be any peaceful Muslims. Muslim is a term to call the followers of Allah, and if you guys had actually read the Qu'ran (instead your interpretations, assumptions and words from someone who could be "lying") than you would realize what it says. because Allah, and I don't know how many times I must provide this, says that if you don't follow EVERYTHING the Qu'ran says, then you are not a child of his faith.

Because I'm pretty sure my friends wouldn't do that. I've talked to many Muslims and have heard something quite different from what you've outlined. They told me that they had a choice on what to believe, on what to follow, on what sort of set of rules to adhere to. They never told me anything about me or any other person from another religion needing to be struck down because I or this other person did not believe in their god.

Such friends are either not Muslims, or made up. Unless you can provide me links or proof?

Also, as I've stated a million times and so did PB, the Muslims are commands to strike non-believers down. Its in their Qu'ran. I don't care if someone comes in here and says its not. Thousands of translations done by non-Arabic people and Arabic people, have read it. Do you know it only takes a few days for Soldiers to pin down the Arabic language? Can't be that hard to learn it and translate. There are movies of ex-Muslims explaining how violent the religion is. But you guys could always go with "that's not a Muslim" or "That's one of the extremists" and then I'll get no where with you.

I honestly don't think that they were taught to consciously do this. Honestly, I know a lot of Muslims who are conservative who would be very upset if they read what you posted. It just sounds so . . . wrong, so intolerant, and so hateful. I can't wrap my head around the reasoning behind what you posted at all, I'm sorry. I just can't.
And what does your hateful posts about Christians do to Christians? You don't seem to care then. :O Its like its only tolerant and cool if your destroy the Christian religion, but not cool if you point other other violent religions.

I have non-Christians here telling me what it means to be a Christians or what the Bible says. And I know, because they are either lying or have a problem, that they have not read the Bible. I have a feeling only I and PB have.

But I've also read the Qu'ran. And before I read it, I honestly thought it was "extremists" that did all the bad things. But then I actually read it and now I know how violent they are. I mean, if the stories about my grandparents and mother didn't tell they were (just thought that group was angry or something) the Qu'ran certainly proved my way of thinking about them, wrong.

From the same post.
This is the same kind of thing, because obviously if you're black you can't be a racist. Also the most of my friends are black etc is a cliche used by white racists. It's okay though, you've proved to us that you're ethnic.
Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I now have to be black to not be racist? Why are you relying on the most silliness things to get me out of this debate? Racism because I disagree? You're mighty silly.

Well, I have my friend Roy (my age, he loves Conan), I have my friend Julia (who is from the east. She is a very sweet person ^.^) and I have my very, very best friend Chaotic from FFE, but golly-jee, I could go on. Plus, I think Will Smith is might, mighty handsome and sexy. Oh, and so is T.I. But you assume I'm racist 'cause I disagree with you? This sounds like a bad attempt to make me leave and stop providing the truth.

And I could match that with atrocities committed by Christians or Jews or Hindus. People are inherently violent. You've not proved that Muslims are violent when other religions aren't. Until you prove that Christians et al aren't violent you're wasting my time and yours.
I never said Christians, Jews or Hundus people were never violent at one time. But you bring the Testament before Jesus. If you don't understand that, then what am I suppose to tell you?

I don't appreciate, support or like, violence of any kind. And whenever I hear of a crazy Christian killing, I feel sick to my stomach, the same way I do for all other religions: Muslim, Jewish, Hindus and well, anything else.

Razor sharp wit there.
I have here in my hand a copy of the Koran, pages 162& 163, it was translated by J.M. Rodwell, and this particular version was first published in 1909. On those pages I mentioned there was no incitement to kill and murder infidels or anyone else for that matter, nor was there anything about harming everyone.
Clearly then, quoting the whole book would be pointless. And if would 'pwnage' me that much, why not do it? Surely that is the point. I suspect you can't.
No, because no matter how much I show you, its like you can't read. You block out what I and PB have been saying because you don't want to read/hear it. You're dead set on keeping one train of thought and not taking in the possibility (well, its true, so its not a possibility) that you are dead wrong.

Yes, as we've heard before, there are pages before others that say "fight those who fought you first" and semi-peaceful verses, but then right after that, it orders Muslims to kill -- which cancels out anything that was previously, semi peaceful. But you ignore that for the millionth time. What is the point of debating with you again? Do I get anywhere with you? No. Do you listen to anything told to you? No. So what do I merit from this? Talking to a wall.

Obviously rotting corpses that were once people deserve respect right?
Obviously 9/11 has changed how people view muslims, compare the level of hatred of muslims before and after. How you can possibly claim it had no effect is beyond me, this thread is proof of that.
It didn't to me. I thought, as I said before, it was "extremists". But then I read the Qu'ran and BAM! I was proven wrong.

Yes, because they are people who died from a hate act against non-believers. As I've said before, the Muslims tried it in 1993 and when that didn't work, they came back on Sep 11, 2001. I can't recall if this were something I heard, but there was another date, FAR, far, far back on September 11 (forget year date, but it was ollllllld) when they did a very, very similar thing. What was it?

I bet you were one of those people who tell 9/11 people to get over it, huh? You talk about people who died in a horrible, disgusting way as if they've no respect to be given.

I don't think I can debate with such a ill person.

The part where Christians existed before Jesus. Before that they were Jewish. hoho. Muslims, not combatants then. hoho.
Do you still wish for people to debate with such a childish person?
I don't think I want to debate with someone who slanders and disrespects the lives of dead people who died in a horrible, pre-thought about Muslim attack. In fact, I can't stand to read your posts. I feel disgusted right now.

No. But your country shouldn't wage a crusade either. Your country's issues lie with a terrorist group not a religion.
That explains a lot. You're unbelievably biased.
So the millions upon thousands of people are those "few" extremists you guys were talking about? Where are the "peaceful" ones you like to talk about?

17 Muslims drove a plane into a building. We went to war. Its common, especially when that said country is attacked out of NOWHERE. As I asked before, should we have just sat there for another plane to fly by and crash into a school and kill hundreds of children before we did anything at all?

Wait....why should I acknowledge videos when you guys act as if the videos we post...aren't there? You deny everything in it. Until you can, I won't watch anything you give me. See how bad of a debate I'll make if I don't? This is my point.

Plus there were the human rights violations committed by US troops at Abu Ghraib.
Glad you are starting to see things clearly. See what I did there, I took a quote from something and put it out of context.
You were beaten 4 pages ago, the amount of evidence that has been presented to refute your claims is actually ridiculous.
Said the person who refuses to see the light of the Qu'ran and the thousands of people that are murdered because of it.

I have a feeling you guys like the word "context". Tell me, how we take things out of "context" when we show you a Muslim himself, saying "They are commanded". "They" not just "extremists" but "they" as in "Muslims".

I never denied there were troops that hurt Civilians, but 95% of them do not like to kill, not even kill the ones shooting at them. Would you like to what I mean? Or will you cross this out as well?
The very few who do kill and act like monsters, we well, exactly that. But I could provide 3000 times more pictures of Muslims doing more horrible things that. Should I? I could, but you'd ignore it. :ryan:

You were beaten 4 pages ago, the amount of evidence that has been presented to refute your claims is actually ridiculous.
Whaaat? What thread are you reading? I'm reading the one where only I have provided evidence and you brought Christians into, brought up "You're lying" into it and some other silly little things. I see that the people I'm debating with have nothing to support themselves with. That's what I see. Again, what thread are you seeing?

@Darkb1ade:
Read above and the second to last quote reply above this. ;)

How can you say it's a red herring? Cali (PB) and Terra are using double standards to demonise Muslims, and I pointed that out. This whole demonstration is based on those double standards and it turns people into bigots i.e. Terra who turn a blind eye to their hypocrisy.
Do you even know the meaning of "double standard"? Didn't .Mog say no insulting? Hm....

Anyway, I provided proof. You're only "proof" is your word that they don't or your word that you have peaceful Muslim "friends". You've yet to provide anything or nearly the same amount, of evidence I have. This is the goal you guys have mangage to pull off:
1: Blame Christians
2: Bring Christians into this
3: You've gotten onto the "your lying/racist/biased" game.
4: Soldiers kill innocents all the time < (what the hell?)
5: You're a bigot.

That's all I've seen you guys do.

I've watched this video a long time ago, for your information and I still think it's kinda a weak source to support your attempts to demonize Muslims, First of all, yes Muslims are allowed to rage if their Prophet is mistreated by some people but it was ordered to talk it with them peacefully and if they refused they don't go killing, because that person might atone and if he didn't it's left up to "Allah" in the afterlife, no offense but seriously get a better source of your information than some person blabbing.
*Sigh*
Again with our proof isn't good enough. What will persuade you guys? Allah himself telling you? Oh wait, he can't. So how can I or PB, bring facts and prove that is "good enough" in your eyes?

You will continue to say something like "That's one extremist" or "That's one Muslim". How can we debate with people who refuse everything?

Well, your source is a source of some person blabbering. Why should we listen to you again....?

The religion, didn't ask the men to do that, you're just assuming thing, nor they did anything of what the Qur'an said.
Again, it does. We've video proof of Muslims saying the Qu'ran does. We've written proof of it. We've reports of it. We have everything to prove it, you've nothing but your word.


You still don't read, you're just taking the the bits you like. That group is an extremists group and it's kinda obvious, there's no word in Qur'an, I repeat no word, that commands people to terrorize, they are just using a cover because you people don't even understand a thing and you will go ahead believing, or you are just believe the bad things and the good things are just lies?
No, I'm pretty sure she and I, have been replying to everything and everyone. We don't have to quote it to reply to it. I've seen her address your posts and quotes every time now.

Here's someone reading the Qur'an in Arabic but there's a translation unlike what you people are trying to make it look like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAAipWoO3C4
What happened to it being a "sin" to translate the Qu'ran? How is this translation better than my translation? :ryan:

Just one more thing, suicidal bombing like the ones you talk about won't send you to Heaven according to Islam, it will send you to hell, you know why? Because suicide itself is not allowed in ANY case. How they are following the Qur'an literally then? Also, any real Muslim, would know that the Qur'an never asked to kill Innocent people but the ones who are in battle. Men with no weapon, Old men, women and children killing isn't tolerated in the actual Islamic rules not the rules people like Al-Qaeda and what not comes up with.
Actually, if you must, I can provide a quote where Allah says the followers who die in his name or die killing non-believers will be forgiven and will be rewarded greatly. Just canceled out that part of your post. Let me my the verse in my copy and get back to you with it. I'm sure I posted it on NF... *goes to look*

Frankly, to be quite honest, I was an atheist, my parents didn't know because since they are Muslims I thought they will rage and what not but when they found out they were actually understanding, I did the same thing you did, started taking the verses I like but they kept giving me the next verse in which gave a TOTALLY different meaning to the previous one, I'm an agnostic now but if I were to take a religion, I would go for Islam from what I've seen of their generosity and respect.
You were afraid of your parents raging? I have a atheist father and he makes loads of sense. I don't hate him, not did his completely different religion following mother. I would never think my parents would have any rage of my religion. But then again, Muslim religion as I've pointed out, says to kill Non-believers or, if you want to take mercy, enslave them and put higher taxes on them.

Generosity and respect, eh? Where is their respect when they stone people to death, or their generosity? Or where are those things when they bomb non-believers here or in their country? Where are those things when they beat their women if their clothes accidentally fall off? I could provide a video, but you wouldn't watch or you'd refuse it as evidence.

You probably don't know this but Christians here KILL their children if they knew they changed to Islam.
-_-
What, dear sir, are you reading? Did Muslims or any other religion tel you this? Its a sin to commit violence. We wouldn't kill our children. You are soooooooooooooooo wrong. We love thy neighbor, not kill them, and that especially goes to our children. How wrong you are. Ah, makes me know that you guys have no idea what you are talking about. :humph:

Also, for Miss.Terra and you, I will find the passage in which it says, Muslims can marry Christians, Jews etc. Don't you think that contradicts what he said by kill all disbelievers?
Actually, no, considering Allah says you can choose to take mercy and enslave them. I also don't see this as proof because well, the women are forced to do so many disturbing things. Why not be forced to marry? I mean, that non-believer is a slave now. Why not force her to marry like they do all the time? And then he can force her to convert, since women don't have freedom and stuff like that. How could make your women dress so heavily in that heat?

My point? No, it doesn't contradict anything. Its punishing non-believers, again, as the Qu'ran orders Muslims to do.

No, it doesn't say to kill the disbelievers. I did say only case in which they are allowed is when they are in war Army vs. Army.
Wrong. Says it so many times, the 6,000 verses are mostly of it.

Actually, I'm completely serious about this. They are killed if they change to Islam. I live in Jordan not where you live.
*laughs*
I'm sorry, this is a lie you've made up. Christians don't kill their children, and if they do, the few people are crazy Christians. If my kid (if I had one) said they weren't Christian, I wouldn't care. I'd feel a little bad that they probably thought something vile of Christians because of what ignorant other people say, but I wouldn't kill them or anything. I'd respect them for their opinion and being an adult.

And they defiantly wouldn't feel as if I'd be rage if they told me.

By the way, the verse is 5:5 that allows Muslims to marry Christians, Jews.
Read above please. ;)

Parts? You didn't even read it whole? Excuse me, but you're in no place to debate here, if you just read parts. =/
Did she say she just read parts? You've no place here debating because your biased and your a Muslim. Does that sound far to say? No, it doesn't. Don't tell people they don't belong here debating when the same could be said to you.

Again, I say. You're reading a shallow translations, in all parts of Qur'an, it's says (self translation) "Fight the ones who fight you", in all Qur'an's explanations it says kill the ones who fight you.
So over 60+ known translations and my own, are poor translations? How can so many translations, mostly done by Muslims themselves, be poor? :confused:

Just like how they went wrong translating verse 5:51.
They weren't wrong. :sup:

"God does not forbid that you should deal kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for the sake of [your] religion or drive you out of your homes. Truly, God loves those who are just." [60:8]
Those who are just in believing Allah. Its not very hard to understand.


"The good deed and the evil deed are not equal. Repel [the evil deed] with one that is better. Then truly the one, between you and he is enmity, shall become as a bosom friend." [41:34]
This doesn't say at ALL that they don't kill non-believers. It saying Repel the evil deed by doing one that is better". Since you say Allah doesn't like death, this verse means "After death is committed, do a deed that is righteous. " < Well, in the best English I could get it at least. Also, as I've said above, Allah says those who kill non-believers will be greatly rewarded and forgiven.

Seriously, if you want to quote verses from Qur'an, please look at the historical event RELATED to that verse, that will give you a better understanding.
Have, doesn't cancel out anything said that is violent. Just claims to give a "Reason" to kill. :gonk:

Of course, like you said some people do what you're exactly doing, they just READ without understanding what it means and apply it, to be quite honest if you were a Muslim, I'd definitely classify you between the ones, who would do everything literally due to not completing the whole thing and misunderstanding of context.
If you don't follow what the Qu'ran tells you, then you aren't a Muslim. And since you aren't following everything it says as Allah has ordered you to do, then you aren't a Muslim. I've explained this many times now. I wonder when it won't be ignored.

The way you kept getting verses and saying you read this and you read that, without digging deeper into it, makes it hard to talk with you, take a look at the historical events for these verses, have at least a bit more idea of what you're talking about.
Yet you claim Christians kill their children if they convert. :gasp:
We've at least read both the Bible and the Qu'ran. But no matter how much we prove so by providing quotes, verses and various other things, you still will claim we haven't read it. *sigh*

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Wow! I didn't have to double post? :gasp:
Freakin' awesome! On NF, I would have never been able to post so much in one post! :kelly:
 
Wow the only defense you can post to any point made against you is that the other person is lying. The only reason I said that you probably didn't read the Qu'ran is that it seemed like you just went to a biased website and copy and pasted it here. And Mercurial seems to have proven my point that you never actually read it.

I think everyone reading this thread is just rolling their eyes at you.

And I said lmao to you not knowing what a transcript was.
 
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Wow the only defense you can post to any point made against you is that the other person is lying. The only reason I said that you probably didn't read the Qu'ran is that it seemed like you just went to a biased website and copy and pasted it here. And Mercurial seems to have proven my point that you never actually read it.

I think everyone reading this thread is just rolling their eyes at you.

No, I'm saying since you think I'm lying, I can play the same defense.

Do I seriously have to define my already defined posts? :gonk:

Oh yea, I'm reporting the insults said to me after the warning. :mad:

P.S
I don't care if you think I've never read the Qu'ran. I've provided enough proof to it, you just deny it. *laughs*
 
This thread is being closed for a second for a number of reasons, first I'm going to review it a little, and secondly because the name calling is coming out.

1) If you are going to debate, keep your freaking cool, guy or girl.

2) If you name call period, you will be warned and then also have your post deleted.

3) I hate this thread (since I prefer not to debate religion or politics), but keeping it alive as it encourages debating, no matter how unhealthy it is.

---

Replying to the Most folks:

Let's step away from all this, and merely say this is more political then we know to do with rather than just religious principles. Al Qaeda was the cause of this not Muslims. They were using their Religious flag to basically establish Political gain in their country. I'm sorry but this is true, if you can brainwash a few folks to do your bidding and kill themselves for what they think is their god.. then hurray.

9/11 has done three things to America. 1) at first it united us. 2) after years of war we figured out there were many things wrong with going into Iraq after Afghanistan in the pursuit of WMDs and terrorists. 3) Oil hungry.. nuff said about that.

Getting back to Ground Zero though. If they choose to not empathize with some folks about the world trade center then that's their own thing. The fact is a lot of Americans lost their lives to these two buildings being tragically collapsed by two planes. The people that did these were brain washed with the same stuff some Christians are brain washed to believe. They take quote from the Qu'Ran and then take them out of context. Same thing that goes with the Bible.

I've not read the Qu'ran one lick, so I have no knowledge of what it says. I don't even read the Bible anymore, though I've read it twice over in my day. I took what I could from the book, the humility aspects and that's that. Though what I'm getting at is, if they want to build their building two blocks away then let them.

If they built it directly on ground Zero that's just a way for some Extremist Islamics sects to say it was their doing, when it truly wasn't. In no way should we ever believe there is a connection with Bin Ladin and an American born Muslim. If you want to worship Allah, do and do it proud. If you want to worship Jesus, please do it, and do it proud, but NEVER say your god is the right god to a person outside of your religion.

When politics and religion mix it's an appetite for destruction. It's awful and this is what is occurring with all this. To me it's a common sense thing if they do a damn Statistical census in the area so that they could work like a true democracy and figure out who wants to erect it and who doesn't... then they should act on that, not what us as a people think. It's none of our business, unless of course if it was built right on top of the memorial. Nothing in fact should be built on top of it. It should stay there, to represent what an ignorant group of feces did to innocent people. There was no purpose in killing all the people that these hijackers did, except for merely trying to say "America isn't perfect." Though when this occurred I guarantee Bin Ladin got a lot more followers, because he actually made a dent on what they consider an almost near infallible government. Well they don't effin live here, and they have no idea how fallible our own government is from time to time. So of course they have their own foreign ideas.

Sorry folks, I'm tired of the PC bullshit I've seen in my own country that would should just bend over based off race, religion, and nationalism. I see people as people, not what flag they have above their head.

So my retort is, let them build it. Why should I give a damn, unless of course it was to takes directly away from the Ground Zero itself.

----

I repeat though, if folks get nasty with one another again, this thread is gone.
 
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Thanks for leaving it open Shu.

I've already said my piece. So I'll just leave.
 
Me too, I've said what I wanted to say. Now if some of you people don't like what I said or you simply don't want to believe it, then I'm sorry you need to do more digging.

I'm done with this thread, no more replies from me in this thread, as I kind of don't like religious debates anyway, if you want to speak more to me about this matter, please use PM feature, and keep your PM short, because I went out of my way by writing long posts.
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Again, if those people building the mosque noticed the hate, there's no need to build it there, I mean I sympathize with people and if it were to be built ON Ground Zero, then I'd be 200% against the idea of building it there, at least have some respect for the dead.
 
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Thanks for leaving it open Shu.

I've already said my piece. So I'll just leave.

Basically this, too.

Being insulted after a warning and having a neg rep full of insults after that, is enough for me to stop this silly debate.

I've said what I've said, I provided facts and proof. If no one wishes to acknowledge it, than so be it. I obviously won't and can't force you. :andry:

And despite everyone rude comments, I will enjoy seeing further comments in other threads and will enjoy replying back to them. Maybe we enjoy similar things. That would be interesting to talk about. ^.^

Laters. :D
 
I've just taken the time to read through this... Took me about an hour. :mokken: I hate you all.

However. It's made me want to say MY piece.

I follow NONE of these religions. Infact, my religion would have me flayed going by the older passages of many religions. But that's not the point.

Yes, it may seem insensitive to build a Mosque so close to where several thousands of people were killed and injured. But as Jesse pointed out (I believe it was Jesse), alot of those people were American Muslims. You really cannot cast EVERY single Muslim under the same shadow because of what a few extremists have done.

The problem isn't Islam. It's Al-Qaeda. A Terriost FORCE, not an entire religion.

To segregate an entire religious population for the actions of a Terrorist organization... it's incredibly close-minded in my opinion.

I'm open-minded to every religion. I have friends from various religious backgrounds. I don't think it's right of you to tell Mercurial that what he knows of the Muslim faith is incorrect. His parents are Muslim. He knows a lot more about the religion and faith than you seem to give him credit for because he was brought up with it. He's read the Arabic Qu'ran, and he sees it in the way it was written.

As it's been pointed out, the Qu'ran was written at a time of war. Events affected how it was written and the passages within it. Saying that "It says to kill disbelievers" ... it doesn't mean to bring about the genocide of those who don't believe in the Islamic faith. It was fight to kill or be killed. As it is in any war. Muslims fought the same as any other. You get backed into a corner, you fight back. You trust in your faith and your God/s completely and you do as they command. They killed back then because it was either that, or they were to die. If you were to look at the Qu'ran with an unbiased eye (which you can't do if you believe entirely in another religion) you'll see it as it really is.

Muslims kill disbelievers in WAR. When fighting.

Now, before you go on about the terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers and how they were of the Islamic faith...

They were a handful of people being led by a Muslim Extremist. Your argument of all Muslims having to be murderers and using the terrorists as an example... yeah.

Al-Queda, a terrorist organization, are a group of Extremists who happen to be of the Muslim faith and look at the passages the same way you do. They're CREATING a war to justify their actions. It might not appear to be a war to you, but it is. The War of Terrorism. Because they are engaged in a war, they are killing non-believers in WAR as the Qu'ran instructed those to do way back when.

Your close-mindedness, to be quite frank, is disturbing.
 
Its not my fault what the Qu'ran says.
And hey, if your Muslim friends don't kill you, then they aren't Muslim. They are something else.

Although it is based on interpretation, I'll have to agree with you there.

Christianity is based on the belief of Jesus Christ as the saviour. It's not the actions that define you as a Christian. So much that some Christian's believe apostasy to be impossible because you're spiritually branded to teh Lord's adjudication as soon as you submit yourself to God.

Muslims seem to be defined more on their actions than their attitudes and beliefs. You must make the pilgramage to Mecca for example, or you are not a complete muslim.

The moral codes of the two don't come into the definition.

All I am saying is, there can't be any peaceful Muslims. Muslim is a term to call the followers of Allah, and if you guys had actually read the Qu'ran (instead your interpretations, assumptions and words from someone who could be "lying") than you would realize what it says. because Allah, and I don't know how many times I must provide this, says that if you don't follow EVERYTHING the Qu'ran says, then you are not a child of his faith.

That's essentially it really. Many would disagree with you on your definition of what a muslim is but it's described that a muslim who commits apostasy is to be punished by death. If a muslim disobeys Allah is that person a muslim?

I have non-Christians here telling me what it means to be a Christians or what the Bible says. And I know, because they are either lying or have a problem, that they have not read the Bible.

You don't know they haven't read the Bible, they may have taken a different interpretation from it then you did.

What do you think it means to be a Christian?

I have a feeling only I and PB have.

So it would seem.

But I've also read the Qu'ran. And before I read it, I honestly thought it was "extremists" that did all the bad things. But then I actually read it and now I know how violent they are. I mean, if the stories about my grandparents and mother didn't tell they were (just thought that group was angry or something) the Qu'ran certainly proved my way of thinking about them, wrong.

I agree. Although it could be a language and/or cultural barrier you were met with that may have served to warp the ideals in question.

Well, I have my friend Roy (my age, he loves Conan), I have my friend Julia (who is from the east. She is a very sweet person ^.^) and I have my very, very best friend Chaotic from FFE, but golly-jee, I could go on. Plus, I think Will Smith is might, mighty handsome and sexy. Oh, and so is T.I. But you assume I'm racist 'cause I disagree with you?
How on Earth did that prove you not to be a racist? Not that I'm calling you one.

This sounds like a bad attempt to make me leave and stop providing the truth.

I believe the Lord is the only one who can provide a definate.

I bet you were one of those people who tell 9/11 people to get over it, huh? You talk about people who died in a horrible, disgusting way as if they've no respect to be given.

I don't feel as if the victims should be forgotten but I believe the ground should be treated as any other piece of ground. It's soil, people may have died there but by dwelling over the symbolism of the tangible soil we are essentially creating false idols.

As I asked before, should we have just sat there for another plane to fly by and crash into a school and kill hundreds of children before we did anything at all?

Clearly the most logical solution would be to demand the extradition of the terrorists. Should the country in which they're perceived to be operating not comply, invade.

I never denied there were troops that hurt Civilians, but 95% of them do not like to kill, not even kill the ones shooting at them.

I'd wager the majority joined the armed forces for some action.

The very few who do kill and act like monsters, we well, exactly that. But I could provide 3000 times more pictures of Muslims doing more horrible things that. Should I? I could, but you'd ignore it. :ryan:

In fairness those are people you speak of. Man interprets the Qu'ran, man acts on their interpretation.

I'm not saying your interpretation of the Qu'ran is incorrect, I'm saying that the pictures are irrelavent and prove nothing.

only I have provided evidence

There are no definates, there is no evidence. Faith is the basis of all religion and philosophy.

I see that the people I'm debating with have nothing to support themselves with. That's what I see. Again, what thread are you seeing?

People who can fully qualify their statements are few and far between. You can't expect people to form fully rational arguments.

Do you even know the meaning of "double standard"? Didn't .Mog say no insulting? Hm....

A bigot is not an insult.

Anyway, I provided proof.

Only the all powerful Lord holds such irrefutable proof.

5: You're a bigot.

Sorry Terra, I agree with alot of what you're saying it but the way you word it is somewhat bigoted.

Allah himself telling you? Oh wait, he can't.

Such as in every other religion. Alas, the only thing left to do is come to an interpretation based on the texts we were given.

You will continue to say something like "That's one extremist" or "That's one Muslim". How can we debate with people who refuse everything?

But right there you refuse to acknowledge that it could well be only a select few who condone such behaviour. I would disagree with that, but I wouldn't refuse it as an absolute.

We've written proof of it.

That's the only reference you need. Videos didn't record the teachings of Islam.

We have everything to prove it, you've nothing but your word.

All we have in this life is our word.

We wouldn't kill our children.

Do not speak for your fellow Christian.

You are soooooooooooooooo wrong.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. (Matthew 7:1)

We love thy neighbor, not kill them, and that especially goes to our children.

Where does it say I should love my child 'especially'? I believe all deserve equal love.

the women are forced to do so many disturbing things. Why not be forced to marry? I mean, that non-believer is a slave now. Why not force her to marry like they do all the time? And then he can force her to convert, since women don't have freedom and stuff like that. How could make your women dress so heavily in that heat?

I agree. Not so much about the texts as on the oppression of women. It's part of Sharia law to only charge a man with rape if there are 5 (male) witnesses. Of course, the only time that's going to happen is when...

I'm sorry, this is a lie you've made up. Christians don't kill their children,

It might not be a lie. He's talking about humans and their clannish fanaticism, not the values of the religion.

If my kid (if I had one) said they weren't Christian, I wouldn't care. I'd feel a little bad that they probably thought something vile of Christians because of what ignorant other people say, but I wouldn't kill them or anything. I'd respect them for their opinion and being an adult.

Props on the attitude.

You've no place here debating because your biased and your a Muslim.

Anyone has a place in a debate.

Yet you claim Christians kill their children if they convert. :gasp:
We've at least read both the Bible and the Qu'ran. But no matter how much we prove so by providing quotes, verses and various other things, you still will claim we haven't read it. *sigh*

Or simply that you're interpretation is different.
 
Were the people in the twin towers in their war? Is that why they were killed?

Those people that day weren't at war with Muslims. They were doing their jobs and they were brutally murdered for just being American.

I'm not sure who you were calling close minded. But I am the farthest thing from being close minded. And if anyone is trying to paint me as a racist. They'd be far off.

For God's sake, three of my favorite singers are Muslim and another(s) from Lebanon. (Nancy Ajram, Haifa Wehbe, Elissa,) I think they're a beautiful people. And I have nothing against them as a people. I just disagree with the religion having a Mosque so close to a burial ground. And I'd feel the same if it was another religion, too.

I'm done. Call me close minded for having my own opinion. But I can just as easily say anyone else is as close minded, if not more than me, because their opinion differs from mine.

Negs are very mature everyone. Really.

By the way,

bigot;
One who is narrrowly or intolerantly devoted to his or her opinions and prejudices. This word is a general term that applies to everyone (racists, anti-Semites, misogynists, homophobes and xenophobes).






Mercurial
, Thanks for understanding my opinion now. C:
 
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If you had read my post fully, you would have noticed that I said the Al-Qaeda CREATED this war. And they did so with the attack on the towers.

Every war has a beginning and unfortunately, it usually involves in innocents getting caught in the crossfire. THAT is what makes the other side fight back, after all.

Chances are, not every single one of them was American. It wasn't a declaration of war on just Americans. This terrorist group have made several attacks all over the world. Not just on Americans. They've killed many many Brits in England along with many others from various backgrounds also living here.

Al-Qaeda made a war of Terrorism. And the entire Muslim population is being penalized just because they share the same religion. THAT is what I find close minded.



But I agree. I'd rather not see ANY building of worship near Ground-Zero.
 
(I didn't quote here as I didn't want to bring people leaving back into it, but I'm referring to the video posted here a few times)

Saying that one, or even many Muslims believe this is not evidence that the majority of them do. Crazy and violent people exist regardless of their religion or their ethnicity. Crazy people can do crazy stuff like appearing on television for a rant or shooting people or blowing up buildings. Religion and politics are sometimes only used to make themselves or other extremists feel that what they are doing is justified. Mix anger with a hint of insanity and then add religion / misreading of religious passages and you get the kind of guy that is seen in that video. I've yet to meet a Muslim that speaks like that myself.

Some people are treating Muslims as if they are aliens and that they have never met one before, and therefore they are scary and people don't know what to think of them. They're just people really and there is no need to fear them. There are a lot of them living in the Western world and they aren't plotting to destroy us but are instead living peacefully despite the amount of racial abuse they receive, and despite being misunderstood and feared. There have been a few terrorist attacks here and there, and it is an issue, but Islam is not the issue.

If all Muslims who do not believe that they should be killing everyone are not Muslims then there are barely any living on the planet at all. There are a few twisted minds; lost souls who in their rage have locked themselves in a room reading religious passages or reading about them online, being encouraged and tutored by other equally deranged individuals, going together as brothers to train in camps and learn how to use explosives, and in feeling that they finally belong to something and have a cause they commit their acts. If the cause and motivation existed beforehand then I believe that the same applies, as something must switch inside of you if you decide to kill like that to prove a point or a goal. If only these people are true Muslims then the people who call themselves Muslim (and are) have nothing to fear or be broken-hearted about as those committing terrible acts are not them. This is unfair though, and not true. It's up to the Muslims themselves to decide whether or not they are Muslim. The vast majority do not endorse such acts, and if they did then things would be pretty hectic at every waking moment of the day. Things aren't hectic either in the US, the UK or any Western nation which people could argue feel threatened. Where there is a constant stream of violence is in the Middle East, and not necessarily only directed at Western troops.

If I was to get upset and feel lost, join the Pastafarian (Flying Spaghetti Monster etc) 'religion' (I know it's not really) and emerged in a few months time on a mission, then make a video saying that all Pastafarians should strangle non-believers with spaghetti bolognaise as The Flying Spaghetti Monster commanded us to “wrap spaghetti around the necks of those who do not believe, until they learn to submit” (it might just mean to place spaghetti there gently tempting them to convert), then I wouldn't be speaking for everyone in the ‘religion’ if other people didn't strangle people with spaghetti. I'd be a nutcase.

I know that’s not the case with all extremists, but some of them are just swept into it because they are lost and have been fed passages which twist their mind and make them believe that they are achieving something. Others have become twisted in other ways into believing that they are heroes for their cause and try to make an impact for it.


So we do that and American soldiers are terrible monsters.
But if they tie us down in chairs and cut off our head in the name of Allah they're the good guys. Riiiight.
That's not what he meant. No-one is justifying terrorism here. People are merely stating that some Americans have killed innocents and have treated prisoners with disrespect and humiliated them in the worst possible ways. It just shows that people can be gits on both 'sides', and those Americans were being gits without even twisting religion.

It’s not right to group all Muslims under the banner of those who kidnap and behead people, or those who blow up buildings, or even those that march in the streets raging and ranting, just like it wouldn’t be right to say that all American soldiers laugh as they shoot people, or that all soldiers humiliate and degrade prisoners for amusement.
 
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