Protesters descend on Ground Zero for anti-mosque demonstration

[CassinoChips]

If no one can counter those quotes from the Qur'an, if no one can counter the statements made by Islamic groups, then my point is proven.

The problem is twofold.

1) No one could ever give you enough evidence to make you change your mind. Frankly, there's enough in this thread for that. If it hasn't happened by now, it's not going to happen.

2) Religious texts are open to interpretation. Two different people can look at the same words on the same page and come up with two wildly different versions of the same religion. That's why we have 48 million different denominations of Christianity, and probably an equal number of sects of Islam.

So. If a moderate Muslim says Islam is not a religion of hate and violence, are they correct? Yes. If a Muslim extremist uses Islam as a backdrop for hate and violence, are they correct? Yes. Because it's open to interpretation.

So when you take information and links from sites that agree with the extremist version of Islam, you show one side of the argument. Moreover, you put yourself on that side of the fence. There are, however, those of us who can differentiate between the denotation of the words in the Qur'an, and their practical application in the religion today. In Islam, they are the moderates. That is the version of Islam I agree with. If you agree with the terrorists, that's on you.

 

[Kei]

Wow... Adamant is the only person who had an actual idea of what it says.

The quotes taken are completely WRONG... first of all, you should know the translation of Qur'an is prohibited by the prophet, second of all, the prophet prohibited the murder of innocents or the torture of people. Extremists, however have a different idea of Islam, and to be quite honest, I believe terrorists are hired by the US Gov. to create a reason for it's wars.

How do I know your quotes are wrong, because I'm Arabic and I read the Qur'an, it doesn't say shit like that, for fuck sake it's even allowed for a Muslim to marry a non-believer. Tell me why would it order the murder of non-believers? Amuse me.

 

[Donald Trump]

Well, I'm also not biased. Seeing as I've read the Bible and the Qu'ran. Basically, we follow the same thing...a little.

I could point you in the direction of a thread where I was providing self translation of the Qu'ran.

I'm sorry if you don't trust that I've read the Qu'ran, but you do realize that not all of the Qu'ran is available on the internet, right?

But it's easy enough for you to google Koran + terrorism.

Yet you claim that what they say and what the Qu'ran says, is biased.

No. If you had read what had been said you would have realised that, the quotes are taken out of context, ie it's 2010 not 632. Also the quotes are selected to make the Koran seem violent, you feverishly search for anything that looks bad and report it to us. When the exact same thing is done to the bible, to show you the error of you darky hating ways, you react with indignance. Christians aren't bad you cry, then you repeat some shit about muslims being nasty.

I bet you guys don't even know their holidays, or certain foods they eat or have to eat.
My grandparents lived and worked there, and so did my mother. I know and she knows, a lot more than you think.

Ewan/Graye lived in Sausi Arabia, not only did they not kill him, as I'm fairly certain he isn't muslim, he would know about their culture.
However that's an irrelevance, because mummy working in the Middle East has no bearing on this.

Actually, even if I didn't follow everything the Bible says, it also never tells me that if I don't follow every step, then I'm not a Christian. Answer that for ya?

No it doesn't. You are trying to have it both ways. All christians must strictly obey the bible, wait, that's wrong? hmmm only arabos must do that. etc etc. You were wrong.

What's asinine is that you didn't read those quotes from the Qur'an. Read through those quotes. Then reread them again.

No. Read the whole Koran, then read it again. Otherwise ignore it. You can't take 10 quotes from any book and claim to know what it's about. It's lazy, actually it's worse than that. You just hate muslims, but you don't want to come across as a bigot, so you try to back it up with facts.

That's the religion that caused 2000+ people to die on September 11th. That's why I don't want the Mosque built there. In respect of the 9/11 victims.

Sentimental bullshit.
By invoking 9/11 you cyncially exploiting their deaths to prove your point. Do you know what they want? No, no one does, because they're dead.

Oh, so the Qu'ran isn't true? What part of it coming from their "bible" isn't true?

You did know I said what you said, not what the Koran said.
Nice way to avoid the fact that what you said was demonstrably wrong.

And no, the bible doesn't tell me to kill non-believers. You are so wrong, I'm laughing right now as I write.

I've always considered myself funny. But these quotes from the bible seem prove me right. But that's the Old Testament, and you can ignore that because you are nice Christians.

 

[Terra Branford]

EDIT @ Terra: I have taken a world religions class and Islam was a topic we covered. I know about ramadan, Hajj, their five pillars, and as I've said in a previous post, visited a mosque and had the opportunity to ask questions.

My mother lived there, I know the Qu'ran, I know what they say and feel. If you can't believe I've read the Qu'ran, how am I suppose to believe you went to religion class?

IT DOESN'T. I've already disproved all of the horribly misinterpreted quotes posted in this thread, as the posters showed a clear failure to understand the historical relevance of the quotes at hand, and simple fact that because an idea is printed in one section of the book does not mean it cannot be refuted or revised later on. The Qur'an is a narrative as well as a religious text. Mohammed clarified or reinterpreted some of his earlier revelations as time and history progressed. You can't judge the religion just by looking at isolated examples.

IT DOES!

How can you misinterpret "kill non-believers"? You have to be pretty `tarded to misinterpret it. Not to mention, a video was just provided where the Muslim says they are "COMMANDED" to do such hideous acts.

You can't justify it, but only say they don't.

You can't judge the religion just by looking at isolated examples.

Really now? Do you don't know anything you are talking about. What kind of god asks you to kill pubescent boys and enslave their women and children? For poo bear's sanity, they stone raped women. Yep, yep. Not violent at aaaaallllll.

Did you bother to read the two examples I cited? Heck, just read through the book of Numbers, or Deuteronomy, it doesn't matter- taken literally the Bible is nothing but a textbook for mass murder. I'd go as far as to say that the Christian god is the most violent incarnation of any religious deity in the last millennium, and the supremacist viewpoint encouraged throughout the text has been used justify human atrocities from the Crusades to the enslavement of Africans to the mass murder in the Philippines. It is continued to be used today in Africa to justify Christian terrorist attacks against groups of Muslims. It's only thanks to the work of intelligent atheists that we aren't stuck in the horrible Puritan days. Until you're willing to denounce all religion entirely, not just Islam, I'm not willing to take your viewpoints seriously.

*Scoffs*
The more you talk, the more ignorant you appear. You have no idea what you are talking about and you go with the crowd by saying Christians are more violent or that our God is more violent. When the fact is, you're too blind to actually sit, shut the hell up and read the Bible thoroughly without being biased or reading the Qu'ran.

If you had half the brain I think you do, you could accomplish the feat of reading both books and realize how wrong you are.

Tell me. Have you read the Bible through and through? Or the Qu'ran? I've read both. I may not have picture perfect memory (my brother got that sadly) but I have read it all and I can recall a lot of things without having to go to my copy.

*Note: Being violent is a sin to Christians. At least have the decency to know what you are talking about before you open your mouth. I at least, have read both books, have family members who live there, worked there and have had Muslims talk to me about their religion and how they want to "make me drink the blood of their women.".
-If you need proof of this, I will gladly share. You will most likely say something `tarded and say I can't count them or something lol-

Sorry to burst your bubble, pal, but you're wrong.

Until you're willing to denounce all religion entirely, not just Islam, I'm not willing to take your viewpoints seriously.

So, is this your way of saying you lost? I take this as a "Shit, I lost. I can't back any of my bullshit up, so I'll just leave. Yay, that's it, I'll leave."

You sound like someone straight out of Stormfront, spitting this hate speech without the slightest clue as to what the Muslim religion represents or the willingness to acknowledge that the First Amendment does not make exceptions based on your insane bastardizations of minorities. Do you hate Jews and black people too?

Hate speech? I disagree, its classified as "hate speech"?
Actually, my family has Jews and black people in it. Most of all my friends are black people. I'm so sorry you are so ignorant. I really feel bad for you.

You sound like a little baby stomping their feet. Whenever something doesn't go your way, you whine, correct? That's what I'm seeing.

P.S
Read the Qu'ran and try to stay focused. Maybe one day you will see what you are missing.

But it's easy enough for you to google Koran + terrorism.

Someone is being silly now.

Ewan/Graye lived in Sausi Arabia, not only did they not kill him, as I'm fairly certain he isn't muslim, he would know about their culture.
However that's an irrelevance, because mummy working in the Middle East has no bearing on this.

Then way did you bring up Graye? As if I know who that is? If it holds no bearing, then why did you continue the discussion?

No. If you had read what had been said you would have realised that, the quotes are taken out of context, ie it's 2010 not 632. Also the quotes are selected to make the Koran seem violent, you feverishly search for anything that looks bad and report it to us. When the exact same thing is done to the bible, to show you the error of you darky hating ways, you react with indignance. Christians aren't bad you cry, then you repeat some shit about muslims being nasty.

You're right. It was 2001 when they drove a plane through a building and killed thousands of people.

My bad, didn't happen in 632. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they cheered the death of Americans. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they gathered in their streets and held signs that said "down with America". My bad, it wasn't 632 when they said it was justified. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they stoned a 16 year old girl to death because she was raped. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they made their women cover their bodies and beat them when they didn't. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they tried to bomb the Trade Center in 1993. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they attacked my grandparents and mother. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they dragged non-believers into their streets to kill them with hot, boiling water.

I could go on, but the more I do, the more foolish you appear.

No it doesn't. You are trying to have it both ways. All christians must strictly obey the bible, wait, that's wrong? hmmm only arabos must do that. etc etc. You were wrong.

Again with you assuming you know what you are talking about.

No. Read the whole Koran, then read it again. Otherwise ignore it. You can't take 10 quotes from any book and claim to know what it's about. It's lazy, actually it's worse than that. You just hate muslims, but you don't want to come across as a bigot, so you try to back it up with facts.

I did. Have you?

I would quote the whole book, but I think that much pwnage to your face would harm you....or your brain.

Sentimental bullshit.
By invoking 9/11 you cyncially exploiting their deaths to prove your point. Do you know what they want? No, no one does, because they're dead.

I don't remember saying what you quoted. But if you must.

9/11 didn't mold my or anyone's thinking of Muslims. What they did, added to the violence of their religion.

You sound like a "bigot" when you say things like this. Silly, silly little you.

And holy shite, speaking that way about dead people? How fucked up of you.

You did know I said what you said, not what the Koran said.
Nice way to avoid the fact that what you said was demonstrably wrong.

What? Are you going insane or something? Did you miss the point of what I said? I mean, crap girl, you quoted it.

I've always considered myself funny. But these quotes from the bible seem prove me right. But that's the Old Testament, and you can ignore that because you are nice Christians.

No, you fool, they were BEFORE Jesus. What part of that can't you comprehend?

@Mercurial:
I'm sorry, the Qu'ran does not say that. And even if it were "true" then can you explain why they are told by Allah to murder non-believers. Why do they stone raped women? Why do they wish for the genocide of non-believers? Why do they bring non-believers out to the streets as the Qu'ran tells them to, and stone them to death?

Can you explain that away?

No, you can't. Its sick. Go ahead and say Christians are more or equally violent, I don't care. I do care, however, the clear violence the Qu'ran asks its followers to commit.

There is nothing you can say to hide that and I'm sorry you guys can't comprehend what the Qu'ran means.

You can't misinterpret what it actually says.

I take my leave for now. I've something to attend to right now. But, if you wish to continue this silly debacle, I will once again provide verses from the Qu'ran (if you want to look like you know about the Qu'ran, then spell it right. Don't use other translations) that clearly (Do you need the meaning of "clearly"?), clearly tells the Muslims to murder in the name of Allah.

You'll refuse this though, its inevitable, but I should try and help you understand, its the least I can do to people who can't understand simple, clear verses from the actual book.

 

[Dionysos]

Muhammad lived from around 570 to 632. During this time, the various tribes in Arabia fought amongst each other in order to survive. The Byzantine empire as well Western Europe (Which had recently converted to Christianity) posed a serious threat to these Arabian tribes. Muhammad's legacy was able to unite these tribes under Islam and protect their culture from these threats. If you place the Qur'an into proper context ie the time in which it was written, it actually makes sense.

Obviously any rational thinking Muslim living in the modern world understands that some of the things in the Qur'an are irrelevant today. Just like how any rational Christian understands that they shouldn't kill everyone who curses their parents.

This.


I have known many Muslims who are among the friendliest and most peaceful people you could meet, and I’ve been to two Islamic countries. Sure culturally they are very different, but they honestly do not believe that it is their duty to kill all non-believers. It’s up to them to define their own religion, and most of them really do not see themselves as this at all anymore. If they did then we'd be having attacks every other week.

They may not update the book or get rid of passages (or Kei / Pseudo-Merc says those passages aren’t even right, but let’s say they are for a bit) because it is their cultural heritage, and the text at the heart of their religion. Christians sometimes try to avoid the OT but they don’t discard it either, and they really wouldn’t want to. When I went to church when I was a kid they would always be quoting the OT still at various times, and to my knowledge this is generally practice. Though various subdivisions might differ in how much they refer to it it still isn’t discarded, which suggests that it is still consulted and therefore still relevant.

It’s unfortunate that a very small minority are creating a huge impact on a lot of people’s perceptions of Muslims, but the terrorists aren’t representing the religion. Some terrorists are just men / women who have lost their way and want to convince themselves that their lives are meant to mean something, and so kill themselves and / or as many others as they can as an attempt to gain respect and enter their visions of paradise; twisting religious text to justify themselves as it is the easiest thing to twist, and also would have the most impact as religion is at the heart of culture. They are deluded though, and most Muslims would not respect them for this as it does more harm to Islam than it does good. It’s also not just against the West as Muslims kill each other too.

As for Ground Zero… I was slightly uncomfortable about it at first as I felt that Ground Zero should be left alone for the near future at least, but hearing that it is actually not on Ground Zero itself, and is just nearby, I don’t think it is bad. An entire religious group shouldn’t be blamed, punished and feared for the actions of a minority.

 

[Kei]

Mercurial:
I'm sorry, the Qu'ran does not say that. And even if it were "true" then can you explain why they are told by Allah to murder non-believers. Why do they stone raped women? Why do they wish for the genocide of non-believers? Why do they bring non-believers out to the streets as the Qu'ran tells them to, and stone them to death?

The Qur'an DOES say that, missy. Can you EVEN read Arabic? I doubt. You're just making up stuff and if you don't read this for me "أنا رحت لهذاك المكان" and tell me what it says, probably you will use a translator.

I did SAY that Muhammad the prophet ordered NO TRANSLATIONS of Qur'an to be made, and translation of it is a sin. He ordered to avoid misconceptions like what is happening here.

From what I've read, your favorite quote was "COMMANDED TO TERRORIZE", fuck off for fuck sake, you're just looking at the extremists who I did say they have a different idea of Islam and use it as a cover, person-who-relies-on-media.

I'll go ahead and pardon me for this, you all are whining about the 2000+ people that has been killed in 9/11 attack. Then might ask what about the 200000 civilians (Old men, women and children) that have been killed by the US Army, of course, the US Army isn't at fault here, because your media shows them as heroes while shows the innocents civilians as terrorists.

Muslims are ALLOWED to marry Christians, Jews or any non-believers but it's more preferred I repeat preferred to marry a Muslim woman, Qur'an orders to expand Islam but not by killing innocents, by taking over countries and defeating their armies I repeat again ARMIES (Did you read it? Good) and if for example you took this point to attack me, I'll reply to you "What is the US doing exactly? It's not defeating the armies it's killing the civilians too". ^^

Also that's how the mechanism works for battles for ACTUAL Muslims.

1. You send an alarm for the country to ready itself.
2. If you defeat, you join the country to your kingdom BUT NEVER harm the people living their or take their own rights, however a tax is placed on the people of that country which doesn't go for the government itself, it goes for the poor people who doesn't have enough to keep on living. Of course if you go ahead and go "Why THEY don't give the poor money?" It's simple because they ALSO have a MUST-DO work which is called "Zakah".

Please, please. DON'T EVER speak as if you know what you're talking about, STOP THE GOOGLING, LEARN THE FUCKING ARABIC, READ THE ARABIC QUR'AN, THEN come and debate with me about this matter, do you know why I know you don't KNOW what it says? Because the Arabic of Qur'an is one of the hardest, hell, ME who speaks Arabic my whole life, took A LOT of time to understand what it says about some stuff.

Apparently, you just hate Muslims, keep providing your "self-translations" to create a false idea for other people. of course people who discriminates like you, are the sick ones.

Oh, I forgot to mention about the raped women thing, where the FUCK did you get that?! You're talking about the Arabs pride and honor here, that's what non-civilized Arabs do to regain their pride and honor, not about the Islam, stoning raped women in Islam not allowed. That's it, you're clearly an ignorant person, you're obviously googling.

 

[der Astronom]

It's totally different. The Old Testament was written for a specific time and a specific group of people. One can't be expected to directly apply words and images that were created for a group of people that share very little in common with Christians today.

Well, here's the problem. How do you know which verses to pick out of the Old Testament that agree with what Christians decide are a part of their religion? Why is there no consistency or agreement between Christian sects about these? Or for that matter, why do some of them decide to leave out Revelations, even if it's part of the New Testament? By what criteria do Christians decide what is part of their religion and what isn't? If they don't have an external criteria, then it's arbitrary.

The Qur'an, on the other hand, was written for a specific time and a specific group of people. One can't be expected to directly apply words and images that were created for a group of people that share very little in common with Muslims today.

............... wait.................

It's got the same problem as the bible. Most religious people aren't willing to admit they needed an external criteria to determine what is right and wrong in their religion. They have to sift through so many things in a holy text that can say conflicting things, or things that don't match modern society, that they'd have to have gotten their judgment on those things from somewhere. Otherwise, how do you decide if slavery is right if there are two verses (or possibly more), where one condones it, and the other condemns it?

 

[.Ted]

Well said, Argor!

No Muslim should be blamed for the actions of those who lost their way. I'm a Catholic myself, but do you know how much it ticks me off when I hear that certain priests -- those who should know better -- make a bad example of the Church when they sexually molest children?

And this is for everyone: Please judge a person on their action, and not what some nutjobs have done to us. Why should an innocent man be blamed for the actions of their extreme kin? Like Argor has said, some Muslims can be nice. If all Muslims murdered non-believers, don't you think we'd be in some sort of war with them right here in the U.S. by now?

 

[der Astronom]

And this is for everyone: Please judge a person on their action, and not what some nutjobs have done to us. Why should an innocent man be blamed for the actions of their extreme kin? Like Argor has said, some Muslims can be nice. If all Muslims murdered non-believers, don't you think we'd be in some sort of war with them right here in the U.S. by now?

If that's how you'd like to put it, I don't know if they've done anything considered good enough for me to earn their respect. So that's why I don't know if building a mosque there is a good idea. I don't know if they're going to do anything good with it. I don't know if they're radicals or not. I'm not saying they can't build anything there; I just don't claim to know their intentions. And unfortunately, when you don't know something, you can't take a positive position. It's the same reason I don't believe in god; I don't know, so I don't believe in him. I don't know if muslims are good people or not; I can't take a positive position and treat them as if they are good people. In order for people to actually want muslims to build a mosque there, it would mean they'd have to know that muslims are good people--but we don't know that. I don't anyways. If you can't generalize muslims, then you can't generalize them as good people and treat them as such.
If you have to judge muslims, then you have to do so on an individual basis. And you can't do that with a mosque because a mosque is too general--it is only a symbol of a particular religion, not individual muslims themselves.

 

[Rydia]

My mother lived there, I know the Qu'ran, I know what they say and feel. If you can't believe I've read the Qu'ran, how am I suppose to believe you went to religion class?

I can show you a copy of my transcript.

And just because your mom lived there does not mean you know what they say and feel. Hell how can you tell what anyone feels.

Sorry but I think Mercurial has you beat.

 

[.Ted]

If that's how you'd like to put it, I don't know if they've done anything considered good enough for me to earn their respect. So that's why I don't know if building a mosque there is a good idea. I don't know if they're going to do anything good with it. I don't know if they're radicals or not. I'm not saying they can't build anything there; I just don't claim to know their intentions. And unfortunately, when you don't know something, you can't take a positive position. It's the same reason I don't believe in god; I don't know, so I don't believe in him. I don't know if muslims are good people or not; I can't take a positive position and treat them as if they are good people. In order for people to actually want muslims to build a mosque there, it would mean they'd have to know that muslims are good people--but we don't know that. I don't anyways. If you can't generalize muslims, then you can't generalize them as good people and treat them as such.
If you have to judge muslims, then you have to do so on an individual basis. And you can't do that with a mosque because a mosque is too general--it is only a symbol of a particular religion, not individual muslims themselves.

True.

I don't blame you for not trusting them, and I certainly don't blame you for doing so simply for not knowing them well.

To be completely honest, I haven't met a Muslim, but just some Middle Eastern people (I know the difference, don't worry). I guess I, as an individual, don't do a good job on judging people very well.

Yeah, they could be up to something bad. The people's thoughts about this will not change unless the true intentions of building a mosque close to Ground Zero are revealed. Perhaps it doesn't apply here, but I believe in being "Innocent until proven guilty." If this specific group hasn't done anything wrong in the past (and I'm talking about the group attempting to build the mosque, not Muslims in general), then I can only believe their intentions to be pure as the snow in a winter day until they prove to be otherwise. I wouldn't want to apologize like crazy later on for doubting these people.

 

[der Astronom]

I wouldn't want to apologize like crazy later on for doubting these people.

But you'd have to if it turns out they're radical muslims. Well, take your pick. I think it's a little bit of probability and your own judgment.

 

[.Ted]

But you'd have to if it turns out they're radical muslims. Well, take your pick. I think it's a little bit of probability and your own judgment.

Likewise. I would seriously owe everyone an apology if it turns out these Muslims are extremists. I don't mind being right, but being wrong is also fine with me. I seriously want it to happen to see who's right and who's wrong.

 

[Terra Branford]

This is the last post I can make tonight, I have work. But here it goes.

The Qur'an DOES say that, missy. Can you EVEN read Arabic? I doubt. You're just making up stuff and if you don't read this for me "أنا رحت لهذاك المكان" and tell me what it says, probably you will use a translator.

I did SAY that Muhammad the prophet ordered NO TRANSLATIONS of Qur'an to be made, and translation of it is a sin. He ordered to avoid misconceptions like what is happening here.

That seems like it was made to hide the religion from others (non-believers). Why keep it secret? If its so "peaceful" why can't non-believers of another language have it translated?

And if I can't translate, or any other Muslim (Muslims who speak English can read the same thing I've been saying) than how can I tell what you are saying, is true? If I can't translate and it would be taken as "misinterpreted" or "biased" how can we tell you aren't doing what the Qu'ran says and lie and deceive people into thinking this so that later, they can attack non-believers? Like the Qu'ran says.

But you still ignore my question about the clear murder Muslims express and read in the Qu'ran everyday.

From what I've read, your favorite quote was "COMMANDED TO TERRORIZE", fuck off for fuck sake, you're just looking at the extremists who I did say they have a different idea of Islam and use it as a cover, person-who-relies-on-media.

No, that wasn't my favorite quote. My favorite? I have none, actually, its that vile of a religion.

Again with the "extremists" thing. Media, eh? I don't use media, I use my copy of Qu'ran. But yea, whatever way makes you feel its not violent and or not valid. If it helps you feel better, go right ahead.

I'll go ahead and pardon me for this, you all are whining about the 2000+ people that has been killed in 9/11 attack. Then might ask what about the 200000 civilians (Old men, women and children) that have been killed by the US Army, of course, the US Army isn't at fault here, because your media shows them as heroes while shows the innocents civilians as terrorists.

Oh wow, assuming the position of God and pardoning yourself? Hm. Is that part of your religion as well? You can pardon yourself or your sins?

Whining about the death of 2000+ caused by Muslims, by your people? Should my country just sit by idly and allow you to continue to drive planes into buildings of innocent people?

I'll have you know, tard, that the soldiers don't attack or harm civilians. They actually, if you pay attention (see, both of my brothers serve the country, so I know if they help or not) the soldiers only shoot when the Muslims are hiding in holes or buildings, shooting at them as they pass. They shoot with snipers, or they throw grenades or hey, here's one, sending their children toward them who are loaded with bombs.

Yup, we're not the heros.

Muslims are ALLOWED to marry Christians, Jews or any non-believers but it's more preferred I repeat preferred to marry a Muslim woman, Qur'an orders to expand Islam but not by killing innocents, by taking over countries and defeating their armies I repeat again ARMIES (Did you read it? Good) and if for example you took this point to attack me, I'll reply to you "What is the US doing exactly? It's not defeating the armies it's killing the civilians too". ^^

Again, dumbass, the soldiers aren't attacking civilians. They shoot at Muslims hiding, who are shooting at them.

And at the end of the day, they feel sick for killing people who tried to kill them first. I know the Muslims don't feel that way, or they wouldn't send their children off full of bombs or throw grenades into the tents of American soldiers while they are asleep.

Do the American soldiers stoop to that level? No. Only Muslims do, because their religion calls for the death of innocents. No matter how many times you "claim" the religion doesn't. You're lying to yourself, or purposely lying, one of the two.

Also that's how the mechanism works for battles for ACTUAL Muslims.

I feel sorry for you. A Muslim would kill you in a instant if they heard you talking about Allah and his word like this. Changing his word and not following the Qu'ran. Tsk, tsk!

As I've said countless times, Muslims are told to kill. If they don't follow every rule, Allah himself in the book, says you are NOT a Muslim. And those people who don't follow every order in the book, is a-okay to me. Because well, they aren't Muslim.

1. You send an alarm for the country to ready itself.
2. If you defeat, you join the country to your kingdom BUT NEVER harm the people living their or take their own rights, however a tax is placed on the people of that country which doesn't go for the government itself, it goes for the poor people who doesn't have enough to keep on living. Of course if you go ahead and go "Why THEY don't give the poor money?" It's simple because they ALSO have a MUST-DO work which is called "Zakah".

"The Qu'ran tells its followers (Muslims) to invite (forcefully) non-believers to war and if they refuse to convert and follow Allah, then smite them anywhere you find them. Kill them and if you take mercy, enslave them and put taxes on them."
Translating, that's as best as I can get it to sound decent in English.

So, let's make a recap of that!

Allah: If you find those who do not take faith in me, take them to war. And if they still refuse to follow my word, expel them from this (which he says isn't out land, but that of the Muslim God) land, smite them where ever you find them. And if you choose mercy, then enslave them and put (hear is where I translated the word by accident to "poll") taxes on them."

Yay, sure sounds very friendly.

Please, please. DON'T EVER speak as if you know what you're talking about, STOP THE GOOGLING, LEARN THE FUCKING ARABIC, READ THE ARABIC QUR'AN, THEN come and debate with me about this matter, do you know why I know you don't KNOW what it says? Because the Arabic of Qur'an is one of the hardest, hell, ME who speaks Arabic my whole life, took A LOT of time to understand what it says about some stuff.

I'm not googling (insert laugh here). But if this is your way of trying to cancel my facts and quotes, then its a sad attempt.

I have read Qu'ran, I've said it many times. I even translated verses from the book on a completely different thread on a Anime forum. Someone else did to. Would you like a link so you can stop whining about it? Wait, you might claim its google again. lol

Apparently, you just hate Muslims, keep providing your "self-translations" to create a false idea for other people. of course people who discriminates like you, are the sick ones.

Would you like me to get a Muslim to translate instead? Oh wait, you'll just say:

"That's one Muslim. A Extremist! *crys*"

(See? I can be rude, inconsiderate and vile too. If you wish to continue the swear words, personal jabs and other jests, then I can too. And most likely succeed in making you cry, stomp your feet and various other things. )

Oh, I forgot to mention about the raped women thing, where the FUCK did you get that?! You're talking about the Arabs pride and honor here, that's what non-civilized Arabs do to regain their pride and honor, not about the Islam, stoning raped women in Islam not allowed. That's it, you're clearly an ignorant person, you're obviously googling.

What country are you living in?

Do you really want me to provide you videos and proof of this hideous act? They might be old, but its still true.

The fact that you can't admit this IS what your religion does, then you are a sad excuse for a human being and there is no point in talking with you, is there?

I mean, should we ignore this is what your religion has been doing for hundreds and hundreds of years? Just because you claim its not true when there is video proof, new castings and new reports about it?

I can show you a copy of my transcript.

And just because your mom lived there does not mean you know what they say and feel. Hell how can you tell what anyone feels.

Sorry but I think Mercurial has you beat.

A transcript of the Bible? Or going to class?
If so for the Bible, that doesn't proof you went to class, nor does it prove you retained what you heard if you even went to class.

Actually, the fact that they all tried to drag my grandparents and mother out in front of others to stone them to death and kill them, means I do know how they all felt.
Did any of them come to and stop the others? No. They cheered the others on. Another realization you'll neglect to acknowledge or believe.

No one has beaten me. A member saying the book can't be translated simply because they were told not to translate, doesn't mean he's one. But you guys will always say translations done by me or anyone else..... is a lie? Because it says something other than what you believe?

How can I tell he isn't lying? I mean, if he is really a Muslim, the Qu'ran tells them to lie about it.

/End

 

[Daenerys]

Right, that's enough. The next person to use unnecessary language, or verbally attack other users will be infracted. If you can't debate this in a civil way, you won't debate it at all.

 

[Rydia]

A transcript of the Bible? Or going to class?

LMAO. Wow just wow. That is all I can say to that.

And if we want to play the "you're lying!" game that I'll take responsiblity for starting. Intersting, that was kind of ment to bait you and it worked. How do we know that your mom really went to the middle east? That story you told just sound a little strange.

And what about Adamants post about Christians using the bible to justify killing and enslaving people in Africa?

And irrelevant but I'll say this. Most muslims I have met have been very kind and accepting of me. However, many other Christians have told me that my religion is evil for worshipping statues, and that I am going to hell for not being baptized into their religion.

Ah well this thread is now just Lulz

 

[Sepalcure]

All I have to say is . . . Terra, if that's what you believe then that honestly--like to God, that scares me. That means that my Muslim friends should, if need be, kill me because I don't believe in their religion, hypothetically speaking, is that what you're implying?

Because I'm pretty sure my friends wouldn't do that. I've talked to many Muslims and have heard something quite different from what you've outlined. They told me that they had a choice on what to believe, on what to follow, on what sort of set of rules to adhere to. They never told me anything about me or any other person from another religion needing to be struck down because I or this other person did not believe in their god.

I honestly don't think that they were taught to consciously do this. Honestly, I know a lot of Muslims who are conservative who would be very upset if they read what you posted. It just sounds so . . . wrong, so intolerant, and so hateful. I can't wrap my head around the reasoning behind what you posted at all, I'm sorry. I just can't.

 

[Kei]

EDITED Trying to remove attacks ._. dammit

Let's start...
-------------

That seems like it was made to hide the religion from others (non-believers). Why keep it secret? If its so "peaceful" why can't non-believers of another language have it translated?

And if I can't translate, or any other Muslim (Muslims who speak English can read the same thing I've been saying) than how can I tell what you are saying, is true?

Why was it made? I did say, it was made to "Avoid misconceptions", you do know or you probably don't know because you're a tard, thata lot of information which a book aims to is lost due to translations. This is why it wasn't allowed. <--- if you disagree with this fact (Yes, I will go ahead and call it a fact because it is), then tbqh I don't know what to answer you, because someone like you is hopeless to talk with aka close-minded.

By the way, you should know, that Muslims are not allowed to read Qur'an in English, the only language used for Qur'an in ALL matters is Arabic, also for people who wants to have a look at Qur'an, it was said to teach them Arabic.

If I can't translate and it would be taken as "misinterpreted" or "biased" how can we tell you aren't doing what the Qu'ran says and lie and deceive people into thinking this so that later, they can attack non-believers? Like the Qu'ran says.

But you still ignore my question about the clear murder Muslims express and read in the Qu'ran everyday.

You clearly didn't read the Qur'an, if you ask that question assuming I'm a Muslim. Do you know why, missy? Because lying and deceiving people are one of the great sins in Islam. I'm sure you don't know this but lying in Islam isn't allowed even if it's a joke and that alone has a punishment (call it harsh, I will agree) in which you will be whipped like 60 or 80 times I don't remember correctly.

But you still ignore the fact that you're going for extremists and not average Muslims.

Oh wow, assuming the position of God and pardoning yourself? Hm. Is that part of your religion as well? You can pardon yourself or your sins?

Whining about the death of 2000+ caused by Muslims, by your people? Should my country just sit by idly and allow you to continue to drive planes into buildings of innocent people?

I'll have you know, tard, that the soldiers don't attack or harm civilians. They actually, if you pay attention (see, both of my brothers serve the country, so I know if they help or not) the soldiers only shoot when the Muslims are hiding in holes or buildings, shooting at them as they pass. They shoot with snipers, or they throw grenades or hey, here's one, sending their children toward them who are loaded with bombs.

Yup, we're not the heros.

Oh, wow. You're a complete idiot. Did I say "I will go ahead and pardon my"self".? No, I don't think,so stop putting words in my mouth.Your country didn't attack the country behind the attack, assuming that your country said it was Al-Qaeda, no? Then the target should be most likely Afghanistan, not Iraq, no even when you target Iraq, don't you think ... hmm...how many people died there now? about 1 million+? That's a bit too much for 2000+, or you're superior because you're just American?

Missy, if we don't get REAL footage of what is happening there I wouldn't go as far to say they are killing innocents, you're just a person who clearly has no broad view over the world.
Oh, so YOUR brothers are Mr.honest-men I guess. You think your brothers would tell you, if they or their fellows went ahead killing innocents people?! Give me a break. When you have a better source for your information come and talk to me about this, okay? ^^

Again, dumbass, the soldiers aren't attacking civilians. They shoot at Muslims hiding, who are shooting at them.

And at the end of the day, they feel sick for killing people who tried to kill them first. I know the Muslims don't feel that way, or they wouldn't send their children off full of bombs or throw grenades into the tents of American soldiers while they are asleep.

Do the American soldiers stoop to that level? No. Only Muslims do, because their religion calls for the death of innocents. No matter how many times you "claim" the religion doesn't. You're lying to yourself, or purposely lying, one of the two.

umm lol, wow. The problem is you're still living in a fantasy, or you're trying to make yourself look smart which isn't working.

How do you even know how they feel? You think those interviews with those soldiers on your TV actually tells you something? I can sweet-talk, too and make it look as if I'm not the one at fault, it was them, you can make up stories. It's not that hard, you know, grow up, kid, you're just living on what your family wants you to believe, you didn't even have an opinion of your own from I first saw you debating, it was always my mom knows and then it comes up with me knows which is based on your mom's opinions.

Also a reply to the other stuff you're saying will come afterward.

I feel sorry for you. A Muslim would kill you in a instant if they heard you talking about Allah and his word like this. Changing his word and not following the Qu'ran. Tsk, tsk!

I did say why translations are not allowed.

Your opinions again I say based on extremists, I live among Muslims and I say these stuff, do you see me dead? No, then shut up and stop talking as if you know anything.

As I've said countless times, Muslims are told to kill. If they don't follow every rule, Allah himself in the book, says you are NOT a Muslim. And those people who don't follow every order in the book, is a-okay to me. Because well, they aren't Muslim.

You know it's funny how you say it as if your word is final, as if you know everything in this world.

By the way, there are minors and major.
Minor = It's up to you whether you do it or not, if you do it you get praised, if you don't then you won't get a punishment or anything.

Major = a must-do, requires a punishment if not done.

But of course you're stupid and you don't even know the religion, you just looked at it blissfully from above.

You know "Fighting for Allah" is a major rule, includes:
- Expanding the Islamic Kingdom.
- Defending the Islamic Kingdom.
BUT it's not just in physical form, it has 3 forms:
- Physically.
- Supportive. (Provide weapons, money etc)
- Mentally. (If you can't do both of 2 or you're afraid of not having anyone to take care of your family)

Of course, someone who read a transcript wouldn't know that and wouldn't know that the Qur'an said things and the Prophet gave the limits for these things, you see Muslims use 3 sources for their judgements:
1. Qur'an
2. Hadith (What the Prophet said)
3. What the fellows of the prophet did.

Don't go around acting as if you know and throw "this is Muslim" and "this is not" based on what YOU want to make it look like.

"The Qu'ran tells its followers (Muslims) to invite (forcefully) non-believers to war and if they refuse to convert and follow Allah, then smite them anywhere you find them. Kill them and if you take mercy, enslave them and put taxes on them."
Translating, that's as best as I can get it to sound decent in English.

So, let's make a recap of that!

Allah: If you find those who do not take faith in me, take them to war. And if they still refuse to follow my word, expel them from this (which he says isn't out land, but that of the Muslim God) land, smite them where ever you find them. And if you choose mercy, then enslave them and put (hear is where I translated the word by accident to "poll") taxes on them."

Yay, sure sounds very friendly.

Loving the facepalm, makes you look as if you know what the hell you're talking about.

Translating? lol, if you have an English transcript why would you need to translate? I'm sure the English transcript made it understandable enough as they wanted it to look like and I don't believe you can speak Arabic nor even read it to translate if it was Arabic.

I'm not googling (insert laugh here). But if this is your way of trying to cancel my facts and quotes, then its a sad attempt.

I have read Qu'ran, I've said it many times. I even translated verses from the book on a completely different thread on a Anime forum. Someone else did to. Would you like a link so you can stop whining about it? Wait, you might claim its google again. lol

I won't claim it's google when I see you reading and writing Arabic, while it's in English you prove shit and you're just translating the verses which goes for your advantage in this, srsly if you want to translate something, translate the whole thing CONNECTED, not just the verses you like.

Would you like me to get a Muslim to translate instead? Oh wait, you'll just say:

"That's one Muslim. A Extremist! *crys*"

(See? I can be rude, inconsiderate and vile too. If you wish to continue the swear words, personal jabs and other jests, then I can too. And most likely succeed in making you cry, stomp your feet and various other things. )

lol, OMG! I almost fell on floor laughing. -claps- :') The only thing you will succeed to do with me, is making me cry from laughing.

Also, yes I'd like you to get me a Muslim to translate that. Oh, wait. Your mother lived there she knows better. Give me a break, miss. When you get an average Muslim to translate, he won't just stop at the verses YOU want.

What country are you living in?

Do you really want me to provide you videos and proof of this hideous act? They might be old, but its still true.

The fact that you can't admit this IS what your religion does, then you are a sad excuse for a human being and there is no point in talking with you, is there?

I mean, should we ignore this is what your religion has been doing for hundreds and hundreds of years? Just because you claim its not true when there is video proof, new castings and new reports about it?

I'm from Jordan.

It looks like you're trying to run from a debate with what you said, of course people like you thinks they are right just because someone close to them supported their opinions. Might I ask what do you study? ^^

I'm sorry, do I recall you saying, you're not a media person? Looks like you're contradicting yourself.

I will go ahead and point to the fact that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, for your information the rapists gets excuted that's a one, two if the woman gets pregnant from the rape she's not allowed to have an abortion because it's like killing an innocent life. Again, stoning the raped woman is an Arabic -Middle-eastern- way to regain their pride and honor and have nothing to do with Islam, if you provide a video, I'll repeat again, weren't you a not media person? Also, doesn't it look like they are trying to use Islam as a cover because ignorant people don't really understand what it says?

No one has beaten me. A member saying the book can't be translated simply because they were told not to translate, doesn't mean he's one. But you guys will always say translations done by me or anyone else..... is a lie? Because it says something other than what you believe?

How can I tell he isn't lying? I mean, if he is really a Muslim, the Qu'ran tells them to lie about it.

Seems like someone is too arrogant, she's trying to go around things and call people liars, learn the basis of debating then come talk to me. Your facts are made up from your affected mind by others' opinions.

If you really had any look at Islam you'd know that lying is one of the greatest sins like I stated above.

Kid, grow up. Stop trying to make yourself look smart. Your mother lived among Muslims like you said, where did she live? and have YOU lived with her? Also, NO WAY IN HELL you'd know how someone feel (an individual itself is hard but you generalized you know how like a Billion person feels) and the minute you stated that you know, makes everything you say seems just some 13-year-old child talk.

Seriously, go debate somewhere else, claiming to know how people feels and start using it as facts is alone one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.

I'm through with you, I'll read your reply but I won't reply because I've clearly stated everything here but knowing you're so close-minded and doesn't admit defeat you're welcome to take it on PM.

I would cut my arms and legs, if you know what you're talking about, like seriously...

EDIT - By the way, just so you know Muslims have a book which explains what Qur'an aims for, now when you ever read that, come and talk to me. oh and by the way the book is actually a set of books, around 4 HUGE books. Have fun reading them. ^^

-----------------------------
Since, I went too far away from the topic, here's my opinion. To be quite honest, if the people who's building the mosque saw that the people are upset with a mosque building near Ground Zero, I think they shouldn't go for it, why attract more haters, Aren't the haters now enough?

 

[Donald Trump]

Then way did you bring up Graye? As if I know who that is? If it holds no bearing, then why did you continue the discussion?

From the same post.

My mother lived there, I know the Qu'ran, I know what they say and feel. If you can't believe I've read the Qu'ran, how am I suppose to believe you went to religion class?

Hate speech? I disagree, its classified as "hate speech"?
Actually, my family has Jews and black people in it. Most of all my friends are black people. I'm so sorry you are so ignorant. I really feel bad for you.

This is the same kind of thing, because obviously if you're black you can't be a racist. Also the most of my friends are black etc is a cliche used by white racists. It's okay though, you've proved to us that you're ethnic.

You're right. It was 2001 when they drove a plane through a building and killed thousands of people.

My bad, didn't happen in 632. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they cheered the death of Americans. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they gathered in their streets and held signs that said "down with America". My bad, it wasn't 632 when they said it was justified. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they stoned a 16 year old girl to death because she was raped. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they made their women cover their bodies and beat them when they didn't. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they tried to bomb the Trade Center in 1993. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they attacked my grandparents and mother. My bad, it wasn't 632 when they dragged non-believers into their streets to kill them with hot, boiling water.

I could go on, but the more I do, the more foolish you appear.

And I could match that with atrocities committed by Christians or Jews or Hindus. People are inherently violent. You've not proved that Muslims are violent when other religions aren't. Until you prove that Christians et al aren't violent you're wasting my time and yours.

I would quote the whole book, but I think that much pwnage to your face would harm you....or your brain.

Razor sharp wit there.
I have here in my hand a copy of the Koran, pages 162& 163, it was translated by J.M. Rodwell, and this particular version was first published in 1909. On those pages I mentioned there was no incitement to kill and murder infidels or anyone else for that matter, nor was there anything about harming everyone.
Clearly then, quoting the whole book would be pointless. And if would 'pwnage' me that much, why not do it? Surely that is the point. I suspect you can't.

9/11 didn't mold my or anyone's thinking of Muslims. What they did, added to the violence of their religion.

You sound like a "bigot" when you say things like this. Silly, silly little you.

And holy shite, speaking that way about dead people? How fucked up of you.

Obviously rotting corpses that were once people deserve respect right?
Obviously 9/11 has changed how people view muslims, compare the level of hatred of muslims before and after. How you can possibly claim it had no effect is beyond me, this thread is proof of that.

No, you fool, they were BEFORE Jesus. What part of that can't you comprehend?

The part where Christians existed before Jesus. Before that they were Jewish.

I'll have you know, tard, that the soldiers don't attack or harm civilians. They actually, if you pay attention (see, both of my brothers serve the country, so I know if they help or not) the soldiers only shoot when the Muslims are hiding in holes or buildings, shooting at them as they pass. They shoot with snipers, or they throw grenades or hey, here's one, sending their children toward them who are loaded with bombs.

hoho.

Again, dumbass, the soldiers aren't attacking civilians. They shoot at Muslims hiding, who are shooting at them.

Muslims, not combatants then.

Do the American soldiers stoop to that level? No. Only Muslims do, because their religion calls for the death of innocents. No matter how many times you "claim" the religion doesn't. You're lying to yourself, or purposely lying, one of the two.

hoho.

 

[SaShman]

Whining about the death of 2000+ caused by Muslims, by your people? Should my country just sit by idly and allow you to continue to drive planes into buildings of innocent people?

No. But your country shouldn't wage a crusade either. Your country's issues lie with a terrorist group not a religion.

I'll have you know, tard, that the soldiers don't attack or harm civilians. They actually, if you pay attention (see, both of my brothers serve the country, so I know if they help or not)

That explains a lot. You're unbelievably biased.

Again, dumbass, the soldiers aren't attacking civilians. They shoot at Muslims hiding, who are shooting at them.

And at the end of the day, they feel sick for killing people who tried to kill them first.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20001802-38.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article7088548.ece
(I should probably let you know the videos in those articles are quite disturbing).

Plus there were the human rights violations committed by US troops at Abu Ghraib.

Yup, we're not the heros.

Glad you are starting to see things clearly. See what I did there, I took a quote from something and put it out of context.

No one has beaten me.

You were beaten 4 pages ago, the amount of evidence that has been presented to refute your claims is actually ridiculous.