What are the "true" hang ups of 12.

[Razberry Knight]

Back when i initially played Final Fantasy XII, i liked it. not love it, but i felt it has its charm and that there were things older fans just had to accept. But after the horrible lack of thought of XIII and its constant retcon within the sequels (you heard me, retcon), i decided to play Final Fantasy 12 in efforts to see if this game was better than i originally thought. And i realized that

Now there are three distinct things people complain: the gambit system, Vaan being useless, and political story.

The Gambit system is very petty to complain about as its an option to use and its not like an auto-battle system. its something you can customize to help you out. So its still good.

But for Vaan being useless, although he didn't progress the plot as many expected previous Final Fantasy protagonists to do, i wouldn't right him out as useful. One of the uses he has is his connection to Ashe and the nethicite where at first they were the only two to see projected images of who they loved. Now although Vaan couldn't see it anymore, he was still important into letting the others know what he knew she was seeing.

But even then Vaan being important in the story wasn't the biggest issue, afterall did no one question Balthier in the beginning? he was just as random as Vaan was, and he was just as useful too. Heck both Vaan and Balthier give the same reason as to why they were in the story as "joining in on the ride". So its not like Vaan was mysteriously unimportant, he was just a character too modest to be the protagonist. Still, i think the problem was that Balthier's importance developed as Vaan's didn't. We quickly learn Balthier was once a judge magister which honestly was a great twist.

Part of me also believes that Vaan is important to everything else such as the connection to Basch and his brother Reks and Ashe. So to me, Vaan is incredibly tolerable even if he isn't important on his own he is a character that still helps unravel the story. One could argue that Reks and Vaan were never needed to tell the story...but...i dont agree.

But i read in an interview before i played it that Vaan wasn't the main attraction, so i wasn't expecting Vaan to be the center stage as FF fans thought he should've had. And to me, he wasn't that bad of a character. His dialogue felt incredibly realistic, although sometimes a bit stiff.

However there is one particular character that could've been important but really made no effort to leave a mark in the story, and that is Penello. She sort of just happens to get involved. I have no problem with her being a character in general but she really didn't make an effort to play something important unlike Vaan. The only thing she had was meeting Larsa. I also have issues with her design, she just looks uninteresting and awkward looking. like the back is a slot for a jetpack. It looks like she could've had a steampunk design and if she was some form of mechanic, i would've not hated Penello as much, but i guess its there. She does play some role in the background of Vaan, but unlike Vaan, she immediately becomes useless and her strong personality she had in the beginning sort of seemed downplayed as the story went along. her realistic and charming personality felt more as a "tag-along"

Another character i particularly don't like is Fran simply because it feels like she plays the Chuey of Star Wars while Balthier plays the han solo. Still....i can tolerate her if she actually had a personality. her voice sounds scratchy. I feel she was important, but temporarily. Meaning, she was important for the sake of it. either way it worked, but i wish there was more.

But anyways: Vaan is or should be more tolerable then ppl lead on. Heck, now i even question people complain about him so much. Its not like he's another Tidus with the ridiculous laugh scene. Imagine Vaan actually making such an awkward laugh. "HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!" It might've even sounded sarcastic coming off of him which if that scene had to existing another game, 12 might be the only one to pull it off (with Vaan only).



As for the political story, i'm not going to really to go against it. Most Final Fantasy have been all about saving the world, but Final Fantasy XII was more realistic and make it about governments against eachother, but did it take away any fantasy aspect from FF12? I can understand not liking it, but i can honestly say it still felt just as much as Final Fantasy as any other game. Although saving the world wasn't the goal, saving "something important" was FF12's story.

I will say the plot wasn't confusing but most of the core details were just not properly explained. Although you still get the gist of it, or at least i think i did, some of the problems were just not explaining it properly. Although the story switched from kinngdoms and a rebellion to manufactured nethicite being against the gods (Occuria). I will say it wasn't bad, but the transition could've been better. All in all, the true hang up was similar to FF13 but nowhere near as bad and that is that the story wasn't properly explained or may not that it wasn't explained properly but wasn't as accessible to everyone. As some people who are more casual about FF probably got lost, but there was still a story to follow.

anyways, these are what i think the true hang ups of FF12 are.

 

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

i think the utter awfulness of the way the game plays is what ruined it for me. the world is basically one big battlefield which is immensely tedious, and the battle system isn't even any good so 90% of the game is one big battle that doesn't have any element of fun to it, and very little element of strategy compared to previous final fantasy games. in can understand that they want to try and emulate the popularity of other games in the genre with it, but the battle system in the older games was flawless and one of the biggest positives about them.

 

[Ultimaja]

the gambit system, Vaan being useless, and political story

Here's what I think:

I loved the gambit system. It allows for creativity and not having to continually input commands. The only thing I would like to have added to it is being able to save entire gambit structures, instead of having to frequently edit.

FFXII's character build is all about roles, and deeply customizable. I don't see how any one character could possibly be 'useless', seeing as how they are all built from the ground up.

And lastly, the story. I really believe that most people who hack at the plot of XII are really just nitpicking. So there's a shortage of love triangles, emo rage, and planets imploding into pebbles and splurging all over the cosmos. So it doesn't resemble the last hundred titles. So what?
If every story resembled the same plot template, we would have stopped writing books a long time ago. FFXII is a story of badassery and war.

 

[Linnaete]

The one thing about the battle system that bothered me the most was the pointlessness of having free movement when positioning doesn't matter or play any part. Why is it that I'm standing all the way back from this giant chicken and yet it can still peck me from that far distance with a melee attack?

Espers suck. The sense of triumph after defeating and acquiring them, and the general majesty of them, is lost when you call them out and realise how easily trampled on they are. Of course, FFXIII's Eidolons are just as crap, but at least they healed you.

Then I suppose there's the annoying idiocy of having to buy licences for virtually everything. Even if you've toiled for enough Gil to get this new spear or hat, you need LP to be able to wear it or it's against the law because...reasons. Licences probably make sense when it comes to abilities, spells and Quickenings, but not if I just want to give Vaan a lowly wooden shield.

Pacing fell to shit. That's undeniable. Large bits of the middle have nothing too significant happening except for some murder on a mountain refugee camp and collecting Macguffins from within large, repetitive dungeons. The concept of liberating and making man autonomous is brought up early enough, but not who they should be liberated from until way, way, way late into the game. The Occuria just show up too late and sudden to have much of a major impact and it reflects the haphazard development and writing revisions the game had gone through. We don't even know why Venat is on the side of man.

Vaan and Penelo poorly integrated into the general scheme of things. Have Ashe and Penelo ever exchanged a single word of dialogue between them? Do you ever get the sense that they know each other or that they've both gone through quite a journey together? You don't. I wish we could have had more out of the Balthier and Dr. Cid side plot point. You can just about infer from the cutscenes the impression that Dr. Cid wanted his son to stand next to him in his moment of triumph, but the relationship is too tragically estranged especially when he is too taken up by the power of mad science. Wish we had more to explore between them so at least it would stop people comparing Balthier as much to Han Solo. Additionally Dr. Cid's desire to be a God-like being himself with the power of Macguffin stones was a bit...last-minute weird.

Too bad really. Really wish Matsuno could have finished his full vision for the game, unimpeded by Square and by his own health. But of course, noooo. We can't have Square being competent at developing things anymore.

Spoiler

I do like FFXII. Still a great game and one that really sets itself apart from other games with a fantastic translation, bold new ideas and a willingness to dispense with usual anime tropes. I'm bitter because it could have been so much better.

 

[Razberry Knight]

The one thing about the battle system that bothered me the most was the pointlessness of having free movement when positioning doesn't matter or play any part. Why is it that I'm standing all the way back from this giant chicken and yet it can still peck me from that far distance with a melee attack?

Espers suck. The sense of triumph after defeating and acquiring them, and the general majesty of them, is lost when you call them out and realise how easily trampled on they are. Of course, FFXIII's Eidolons are just as crap, but at least they healed you.

the first part you're asking for realism in a turn-based command battle. which iornically turn base doesn't suit well for realistic games. the more realistic games get, the more live-action the battles are expected to be.

Can you "elaborate" on espers?

Then I suppose there's the annoying idiocy of having to buy licences for virtually everything. Even if you've toiled for enough Gil to get this new spear or hat, you need LP to be able to wear it or it's against the law because...reasons. Licences probably make sense when it comes to abilities, spells and Quickenings, but not if I just want to give Vaan a lowly wooden shield.

this is something i forgot to mention. but when i was playing it, i guess it didn't bother me as much compared to the horrible shop system in 13.

Pacing fell to shit. That's undeniable. Large bits of the middle have nothing too significant happening except for some murder on a mountain refugee camp and collecting Macguffins from within large, repetitive dungeons. The concept of liberating and making man autonomous is brought up early enough, but not who they should be liberated from until way, way, way late into the game. The Occuria just show up too late and sudden to have much of a major impact and it reflects the haphazard development and writing revisions the game had gone through. We don't even know why Venat is on the side of man.

most of the middle in any FF game is similar pacing, but i'm going to have to say that the beginning dragged onto much to the middle, and then quickly reached the final stages. But i will say there was still important substance in the middle, just not as much.

Vaan and Penelo poorly integrated into the general scheme of things. Have Ashe and Penelo ever exchanged a single word of dialogue between them? Do you ever get the sense that they know each other or that they've both gone through quite a journey together? You don't. I wish we could have had more out of the Balthier and Dr. Cid side plot point. You can just about infer from the cutscenes the impression that Dr. Cid wanted his son to stand next to him in his moment of triumph, but the relationship is too tragically estranged especially when he is too taken up by the power of mad science. Wish we had more to explore between them so at least it would stop people comparing Balthier as much to Han Solo. Additionally Dr. Cid's desire to be a God-like being himself with the power of Macguffin stones was a bit...last-minute weird.

I will agree only a bit with Vaan, he could've been more but Penelo was utterly useless, and there really was no strong need for her. In the end though, you get the gist of their relationship and you also get a bit with Vaan and Balthier. something i think we should've got in the middle.

Cid was always crazy, and it reminded me a bit of Kefka or Professor Hojo (just a bit). but other than that, i wasn't really expecting "reasoning" with him. he was that type of character. Although i also wish we saw more, if you look into the credits, it really puts emphasis on what we missed out on.

Too bad really. Really wish Matsuno could have finished his full vision for the game, unimpeded by Square and by his own health. But of course, noooo. We can't have Square being competent at developing things anymore.

Spoiler

I do like FFXII. Still a great game and one that really sets itself apart from other games with a fantastic translation, bold new ideas and a willingness to dispense with usual anime tropes. I'm bitter because it could have been so much better.

UNfortunately, that a trend happening for all of his games really, mainly Final Fantasy XII and Vagrant Story but i think Vagrant Story was intended to just be a tech demo, either way if it was in his vision, we would've gotten a lot more.

 

[Ultimaja]

The one thing about the battle system that bothered me the most was the pointlessness of having free movement when positioning doesn't matter or play any part. Why is it that I'm standing all the way back from this giant chicken and yet it can still peck me from that far distance with a melee attack?

The point is to do away with the dramatic battle swirl into a battle scene with battle results for your battlers.



More fluidity is needed with a game that is completely open world, they didn't want to mess too much with the battling itself.

 

[Razberry Knight]

i think the utter awfulness of the way the game plays is what ruined it for me. the world is basically one big battlefield which is immensely tedious, and the battle system isn't even any good so 90% of the game is one big battle that doesn't have any element of fun to it, and very little element of strategy compared to previous final fantasy games. in can understand that they want to try and emulate the popularity of other games in the genre with it, but the battle system in the older games was flawless and one of the biggest positives about them.

it can only be tedious if monsters run into you. guess what, 12 did it too.

i really don't find it a huge issue with 12 at all, and i dont see it deviating so much as you claim older ff games have done.

 

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

that made little to no sense

 

[Linnaete]

the first part you're asking for realism in a turn-based command battle. which iornically turn base doesn't suit well for realistic games. the more realistic games get, the more live-action the battles are expected to be.

The point is to do away with the dramatic battle swirl into a battle scene with battle results for your battlers.

More fluidity is needed with a game that is completely open world, they didn't want to mess too much with the battling itself.

Case in point: Xenoblade, which is a game that I feel to be a child of FFXII in a way. A positioning system is something that FFXII could have had, and it would have certainly benefited from it for another strategic edge to the combat. It wouldn't have needed to radically change the game's very design either. The game already has the expansive environments to easily accommodate a positioning system.

FFXII to me didn't go far enough. It would have been perfect if I could also switch control of party members without having to wait for them to cease being an enemy attack target, and if the Gambit system was more comprehensive whereby I can concentrate enemy aggro on a certain tank of the party while I sneakily go around and be a saboteur or inflict damage in the back.

But I appreciate FFXII for laying the foundations and taking a rather brave, bold step forward, for something that is predominant in many modern RPGs.

Can you "elaborate" on espers?

They fall in battle too easily for my liking, inflict negligible damage compared to previous games' summons, and most of the time you won't know how to execute their final attack without consulting a guide. I dunno, maybe that was just me. I was sitting there in dismay and amazement as Adrammalech got mauled to death by skeletons virtually less than a minute after I called it out. So much for those Mist bars I used up.

While it feels great taking down an Esper particularly when it has demonstrated itself to the party as a formidable opponent, the reward feels disproportionate and disappointing.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Espers were pretty tangible, but after unlocking them as epsers, i sort of expected it. But then again, i think thats because of the contrast of how FFX used summons. It was still better than most FF summons, although i do wish there was one or two espers that had status affects or upgrades.

 

[Razberry Knight]

that made little to no sense

i meant to say FF12 had turn base too.

 

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

it was a totally different battle system to what we previously had though. it's like comparing football to tennis because they're both played with a ball

 

[Shaissa]

I think my only real problem initially with the game was the fact that it was set in "Ivalice."

This actually made since though because the director of Final Fantasy Tactics was originally the director of Final Fantasy XII before he stepped down. I remember a very early shot or actually problem just a image that said something like "Welcome back to Ivalice" this was before Final Fantasy XI came out. Which lead to rumors of a Tactics 2. When it was announced as Final Fantasy XII I was happy, Tactics being one of my favorite games out there I wanted to explore the world of Ivalice more, see Igros Castle and such.

When it was not really even "Tactics Ivalice" at all, and was more like "Advance Ivalice", it initially pulled me away from the game after I bought it. Then when I decided to play it again with an open mind and tried to not mix it with Tactics game, I really did enjoy it. The MMO feel to the game with the battle system and the gambit system took a little to get use to.

With the gambit system, I really only set my gambits up for fighting or healing, then just manually did anything else I needed, so if someone was poisoned I manually either used an antidote or used Esuna. I didn't really bother setting up the Gambit system too much, probably made the game longer and harder in the end, but hey I liked it .

 

[Razberry Knight]

it was a totally different battle system to what we previously had though. it's like comparing football to tennis because they're both played with a ball

it wasn't all that different to say the others were flawless when this one all it really did was change the organization added guikenings, and optional gambits. its stilll a turn-base command style game. I'm starting to wonder if you played the game...

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

XII wasn't turn based. Most comments all over the internet will say it wasn't.
Final Fantasy wasn't based on what was realistic per se...that's the whole point. Having a turn-based combat system has nothing to do with how realistic the game looks or is....It's a video game. If you want realistic games play a different IP or genre like racing games or call of duty. For those that don't know what IP means in video game development, it means Intellectual Property. Final Fantasy XII wasn't the IP of Final Fantsay. Square Enix wanted to milk the Final Fantasy name and XII was a different IP they just kept using the name of Final Fantasy when they shouldn't have. Final Fantasy was an IP created by Sakaguchi. Square changed the IP and it stopped being Final Fantasy even though they titled it so. The music of XII was good and the world they created lacked vision as it did seem like one big battlefield.

Final Fantasy XII was not a Final Fantasy and that is the "true" hang up.

 

[Ultimaja]

The only hangup of FFXII, which is mostly expected in the type of game play it resembles, is that it is sometimes very imbalanced. There are several major difficulty spikes and absurd ratios within the 'chance' math in the game to ensure that people cannot exploit it- which penalize the game play in general.

A lot of grinding is mandatory, which is fun at first but slowly becomes a chore as the game progresses. You'll also often find yourself grudgingly accepting the fact that some endeavors in the game are simply not worth the reward.

These things can be very annoying, but in my opinion, the game as a whole redeems these bad traits. It's rewarding in and of itself to progress through the game in general, and to continually build the characters and their equipment. Even though some knock the story, I found the plot to be exciting and suspenseful. Also, contrary to what some say, I found the graphics, atmosphere, and music to be inspiring- it is obvious that they put a lot of work into those things, I feel that more respect should be due. If you look at other games that have this style of gameplay, they lack in relevance.

 

[Razberry Knight]

XII wasn't turn based. Most comments all over the internet will say it wasn't.

Yeah, but some people are STUPID about it, as if they never played Final Fantasy. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB237kNjCU8

^^This video talks about how FF12 abandoned the "turn base" system for the "active time battle" system, which in itself, is just an evolved turn-base system.

Its really ridiculous when ppl say that FF12 didn't follow previous FF games.

Final Fantasy wasn't based on what was realistic per se...that's the whole point. Having a turn-based combat system has nothing to do with how realistic the game looks or is....It's a video game. If you want realistic games play a different IP or genre like racing games or call of duty. For those that don't know what IP means in video game development, it means Intellectual Property. Final Fantasy XII wasn't the IP of Final Fantsay. Square Enix wanted to milk the Final Fantasy name and XII was a different IP they just kept using the name of Final Fantasy when they shouldn't have. Final Fantasy was an IP created by Sakaguchi. Square changed the IP and it stopped being Final Fantasy even though they titled it so. The music of XII was good and the world they created lacked vision as it did seem like one big battlefield.

Final Fantasy XII was not a Final Fantasy and that is the "true" hang up.

Now here you go again saying stuff that you don't really elaborate on. Final Fantasy XII was just as much as any other Final Fantasy. new IP? if it was a new IP it could've had a spin off title, but it didn't. Keep in mind, Final Fantasy and Zelda games are always trying out new things, so each game is generally trying to gain new more interest.

but its not like it doesn't go for the old IP.


FF13 was the least FF game. and 10, although amazing as it was, goes right behind it.

 

[Ultimaja]

Pure 'turn based' battling is a dying breed. Traditional Japanese rpgs, it's prime origin, is losing face even in Japan.

Lost Odyssey is among the last of turn based strategy that was well received, and probably due out of respect to Sakaguchi- it was his brainchild.

In order for Final Fantasy to move to next gen, it has to change. Square-Enix knows this very well, and that is why XII on are so different.

 

[Razberry Knight]

XII isn't as different as people make it out to be though.

 

[Ultimaja]

XII isn't as different as people make it out to be though.

And it really isn't. The only real difference is that you don't enter a battle sequence and can preset actions rather then inputting each individually.

The bulk of the traditional structure is still there, it' simply just more convenient and sped up.