Why is the game hated by a lot of fans?

[RioDragon]

@Lupine: I will say this, though, I never saw 1 single FFVII advert. The only time I saw it was when I came across my cousin playing it in his room. Before then I had absolutely no knowledge of the name Final Fantasy. Of course, the majority probably did get influenced by the media but I'd thought I'd put that out there because a lot may have not been so influenced by the advertising. I simply observed, had a go, and enjoyed my hands on enough to purchase the game. I do really need to look into the more obscure RPG titles, though. There are a number of titles that just are completely unbeknown to me and yet I am told are exceptional. I think I shall do some research.

I'm sure there are quite a few people like you that never saw the advertisements, but word of mouth about the game is the worst thing. As I've said, the praise is mostly baseless and rarely compared to anything. But, when you hear enough things about something or someone, you start to take the words you hear as your own opinion. Much like how President Obama is basically considered Jesus despite his bad track record, because he was put on a pedestal during election (and still is, despite all the failures).

Whilst I'm fine with what you're saying don't you think you're exaggerating just a bit with proving that it was nothing that special? The cast of characters were good and the way you broke them down so as to make them seem nothing special is deceptive because they were nicely developed and fleshed out. I found the whole revelation (within the Lifestream) that Cloud wasn't in SOLDIER to quite interesting. Seeing how events really unfolded was one of the better moments in the game. The characters were not bland and did have depth to them. They each had a story to tell and that was important. I'm not saying they were the best cast in a game ever, but they were great. I'm not sure if you hate the 'fanboys' so much that you're slagging the game off pretty harshly. This is what I mean by a warzone. CHIP on one side and you on the other.

It's hard not to keep arguing my point when you've got someone like CHIP who doesn't read or apparently think. To be honest, I don't hate the game, I like it, it's just ruined. I can't play the game anymore because it annoys me so much that a game that's just average at best, an enjoyable game, to be sure, had all of its little joys stolen by fans who praise it too much. I just keep thinking, 'what is wrong with me that I don't like this'? When hoping that a boring scene I've been through about five times takes forever to end. And what's wrong is, gamers AREN'T the audience. Unlike FF I-VI, along with VIII and IX, gameplay isn't the focus. It's anime sterotypes. And that's part of why FFVII is so popular. 1997 was the time of Poke'mon and the reintroduction of Anime to the US, so kids were into the spiky hair and cliche characters. So of course FFVII would be a hit. It had cliche characters and spiky hair and anime over-the-top action to spare. Other than that and ruining the FF franchise with prequels and sequels and spiritual clones like FF X and XIII/Versus XIII, FFVII did nothing different for the series or RPGs in general. And to be honest, no, I didn't like the characterization because the characters were horrid, IMO.

You probably have better grounds because you have played a variety of RPGs at the time so, for you, people praising VII so much isn't really right. However, do you really think of it so harshly? Sometimes I get the impression you do hate it (although you don't...). I don't agree with some of the things CHIP said, either, but other things I completely agree with.

As I said before. I don't hate FFVII. I hate the fans. A mediocre game can be enjoyable, but it's hard to enjoy it when it has a fanbase that calls it the bee's knees without any thought.

 

[Zerokku]

We'll let's get started...

As far as I'm aware, FFVII was the first RPG to achieve a considerable mainstream popularity in the West, which is what I actually meant to say.

Seconding Lupine, FFIV, VI, And CT All recieved considerably success considering timing, system, and most of all Price. FFVI or CT would run you $70-80 at release, so it's amazing they did as well as they did considering. I knew several people in grade school who were playing FFIV and CT at the same age I was. I think some people over-exaggerate quite how big of a jump VII was in terms of RPG mainstream popularity.

D&D essentially invented the genre. DQ and FF1 were modeled on the entire concept of D&D, just watered down for consoles. It may not have been particularly "mainstream" but it was definitely large enough to invent 2 genres of gaming. That and even if you had never played it, I'll be damned if you hadn't at least heard about it as a kid, particularly when everyone was claiming it was evil and you'd lose your soul by playing.

So, the game's actual quality had nothing to do with how well it sold? It was simply down to the fact that it was so ludicrously hyped-up beforehand? Right. You do realise, there is a simple reason why FFVII was so massively hyped-up. Wanna know why? Because it was an exceptional game and it thoroughly deserved all the hype. Shocking, isn't it?

Correct. Quality had nothing do with how well it sold. If that was the case Chrono Trigger should have doubled the sales of that of VII. The only thing VII had over any other JRPG before, or at the time, was one of the most intense marketing blitzs ever seen in gaming. I saw an ad for VII in a fucking movie theater.

Lupine was correct in the comparison to Halo. Are you insinuating Halo is one of the best FPS? Nevermind the fact that it's completely and utterly average and unoriginal. It didn't even do as much as what little VII did for RPGs, and it still gets an undue amount of hype/praise for an ultimately mediocre shooter. But by your so called "logic" its one of the best FPS ever because the fact it sold so well and received so much hype must mean it's an amazing game amirite?

Get real.

Sales mean nothing in terms of quality, and if you think so then just looking at DS numbers for a minute - Games like Imagine: Babies are now apparently better games then FFIV.

If you carried out a survey on the street and asked people what their favourite RPG is of all-time I think the majority of people would probably say FFVII (or name one of the Final Fantasy games). Admittedly, I've never played Chrono Trigger, so I can't really comment, but as I say, I'm sure many people would disagree with you here. In other words, you're probably in the minority with this assertion.

If you talk with RPG fans (And not FF fanboys who don't like to take their head out of their ass and look at games that don't have the Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts moniker), people that have played JRPGs from all over the spectrum from the first DQ to Tales of Vesparia now, I'm sure you'll find many more people who say that Chrono Trigger is the superior JRPG. Chrono Trigger is regarded as a timeless classic, and a "Game of the Forever". You don't see that kind of praise for VII outside the aforementioned FF Fanboys.

Graphics? Average? Are you serious, sir? Granted, Cloud may have only been comprised of ten polygons, but the battle-sequences were very visually impressive, and the pre-rendered back drops were simply stunning compared to many other games around at that time.

Goldeneye 007
Mario 64
StarFox 64
Resident Evil
Tomb Raider 2

All games that were also released in 1997 that are vastly graphically superior to VII that I could think of off the top of my head. Yes VII had beautiful prerendered backgrounds, something I mentioned in my previous post. It was not however "stunning" compared to other games at the time.

I'd beg to differ. The Materia-system was unique in my opinion. I've played my fair share of RPGs and I've never come across a system that gives the player such incredible scope for character customization and is so brilliantly addictive, yet so simple to grasp. If you ask me, no Final Fantasy (or RPG I've played for that matter) has surpassed the Materia-system in FFVII in terms of accessibility, customization, and sheer addictiveness.

You must not have ever played a SRPG before then If you think it gives you such an incredibly scope in terms of of character customization. And how is it too terribly different from just mixing previous FF's? You essentially equip spells like (FFI-IV), and level them up (FF V and VI)

And to second Lupine, "Wow. You're addicted to equipping and unequipping items?" Might want to get yourself another hobby.

Let's have a moment of honesty. The soundtrack in FFVII was excellent. Personally, I'd say more recent Final Fantasy games have been sorely lacking the kind of emotional resonance found in the music of older Final Fantasy games like FFVII.

I agree it's excellent, and said it was one of Uematsu's better soundtracks. That being said it still pales in comparison to his/mitsudas work on Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross. And CT came out before, where that comment was in response to you saying it had a revolutionary soundtrack, when a far superior soundtrack had come out years before.

The cast in FFVII were average? Of course they were *Rolls eyes*. I'm not so sure you'll get many people agreeing with you that the cast in FFVII were "average."

The reason I say they're average is the fact half the cast is forgettable. Until I had gotten back into FF earlier this year, I had honest to god forgotten that Red XIII, Cait Sith, Cid, and Yuffie even existed. They were not memorable in the least, despite their characterization.

The characterization in FFVII was unarguably excellent, with even the minor characters, like Yuffie, being given fleshed-out backstories, which added to the overall convincingness of the mythology. It's also a testament to the game's excellence, that despite being entirely text-based, it managed to create such believable and captivating characters.

Except that their back stories came off as cheesy and cliche. VI suffered from this a ton as well. In both they tried to flesh out the characters and make them seem more human, and it came off as cheesy and hamfisted.

The characters in FFIX or XII were voice-acted, and more realistically-rounded in appearance,

Despite IX being my favorite numbered game in the series, I have to point out that it was not Voice acted, nor was it particularly realistic in appearance xD

although they aren't even as half as genuinely memorable, convincing or had as much depth to their personalities as the characters in FFVII.

With the exception of Amarant and Eiko, I found IX's cast to be incredibly memorable. A very charming and fun cast, and probably my favorite cast in the series next to IV. Not necessarily as deep as VII, but definitely more believable.

But you meant to say X and XII, and I'll have to agree. Mostly because X sucked balls all the way around, and XII was simply shafted by Matsuno's departure not even halfway through development. If Matsuno has stayed and been around for all of XII's development (And if Squeenix hadn't completely shat on his original vision for XII) it would likely have been one of the best games in the series.

Compared to most modern games it was. Which was my point.

Just going to copy Lupine - "You want hard games? Play almost any game in the Shin Megami Tensei franchise other than Devil Summoner or DemiKids, Play almost any DragonQuest game, play Lost Odyssey, Play FF II, for god's sake."

My comments need proof? It's opinion-based you idiot. That's how it is with every game. People's opinions will always be polarised over the overall quality of how good a game is, especially with a series as contentious as Final Fantasy.

Going for the lolopinion defense eh? Nice Arguementative skills there.

You word things as if they were fact, and yet fail to defend them as such.

Blind fanboy? Sure. Of course. I'm a just a blind "fan boy" for expressing my opinion.

Lupine already said it - "When it has no thoughtful comparison to anything around at the time or before it? Yes, yes you are."

You're quite obviously insulated in a very small range of experiences concerning JRPGs as is proven by your unsupported and patently false claims.

Whoever you are, sir, you are most assuredly a dumbass. Debate me properly when you can actually learn to form a logical sequence of words and have a basic understanding of logic.

logic.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[CHIP]

Tell me how the characterization was so great? It's a blond-headed Emo, a Mr. T lookalike, a chick with huge breasts, a flower girl, a lone wolf/fox/whatever, a country hick, the obligatory cute animal mascot, a ninja that really isn't (BELIEVE IT!), and a vampire. How much more stereotypical of a cast can you get? And, to be honest, the backstories for what few characters had them were cheesy, and, in Cloud's case, very anticlimactic. He never even made it into SOLDIER, which is kinda pathetic.

Seriously, are these honestly your reasons for not liking FFVII's characters? Because Tifa's breasts were too big, because Barrett looked like Mr T and because Cloud had blonde hair? Normally, I'd try and respect an opinion like this – but these reasons are so inconvincibly daft, I just can't. Nonetheless, I do agree with you that they were rather stereotypical, especially Barrett, but they're all still brilliantly crafted, believable, and deeply-layered characters nonetheless. Compare the characters in recent FF games like Vann, and they're a lot more bland and uninspiring. Sephrioth was a brilliantly evil, sadistic, villain, with none of the cheese you'd associate with a bond villain. Cloud, did have blonde hair, well-spotted, but that by itself wasn't enough to make me dislike him. The love triangle that ensued between Tifa, Cloud and Aries, was oddly endearing for me, and Aries' death, singlehandedly packed more emotional punch than any game I've ever played. It was pure gravy for the soul, only a dry-boned cynic would play the game stone-faced and not reap any enjoyment out of the characters.

Basically, all that was visually impressive at the time were the cut scenes and the fighting sections. That was it. The characters themselves when you were controlling them were 1992 quality at best.

Sure, the character models were graphically eyesore. However, I'm not debating that. The prerendered backdrops, CGI cut scenes, and battle sequences comprised over 99% of the actual game – and that was much better graphical quality than any '92 game I've ever seen.

Wow. You're addicted to equipping and unequipping items? You have a very sad life. It isn't even really a system, IMO, it's just 'equip this, get a spell', 'equip this, get another spell' it's not exactly a thrilling game play mechanic.

Yes, I was. Should I be ashamed of myself for being addicted to it? As I said before, though. I just thought the materia-system had it all. Great customizability, something that recent games in the series (like FFX and XII) I felt have sadly lacked. There were literally hundreds of ways you could combine different types of materia to create your own unique devastating 'spells' and affects – it was so brilliantly flexible and accessible. If you disagree with that, that's fine. It's just my opinion.

I know we won't, because a lot of them are blind fans, like you. We're doing a charity here by enlightening.

Please don't call me a 'blind fan' again.

Ummm... IX wasn't voice-acted. X was

Typo.

The graphics are rather primitive, so the details all went into the text, which were top-notch even in battle, you'd get verbose messages of how f***ed-up you're making your opponents face. And as I've said, one of the best RPGs when it comes to characterization is Planescape: Torment. Go out and get it. I don't care how, just get it and play it. The characters all have distinct personalities that come out in how they act, speak, and what they do. Also, this was the most text-heavy game ever made. If I recall, the story contains some hundred-billion words in the original english version.

I don't have the time to play a game that contains 'some hundred-billion words'. That, to me – sounds like overkill.

When it has no thoughtful comparison to anything around at the time or before it? Yes, yes you are.

Eh?

So, that means Halo was an exceptional game? I mean, it was hyped out the ass, so it must've been great! No, it was mediocre, borrowing from every FPS without doing anything significant. Ads for a game tend to blow its properties out of proportion. Back in 1997, I couldn't remember watching TV for thirty minutes without seeing at least one or two TV ads for FFVII. And what do you say about truly exceptional games that don't receive hype and just fade until they're hopefully picked back up? Advertisements and hype sell game, no matter how good or bad the game is. The more awesome they make you think it is, the more you'll blindly believe it, which is why I look at games through an objective viewpoint (i.e., ACTUALLY COMPARING IT TO SOMETHING) over subjective (believing hype for anything that looks cool and just going with it

I agree. Most publishers these days just suck gamers in with flashy visuals in TV adverts. Nevertheless, in this specific case, FFVII deserved the hype, as it was such a brilliant game and received such exceptional reviews. A game doesn't just receive universally 90% plus reviews if the game doesn't warrant those reviews, does it? And FFVII did. Also, the reviews, and word-of-mouth, were partly what contributed to the overall hype of the game as well. Incidentally, I don't remember seeing any advertisements for FFVII on TV, ever.

You want hard games? Play almost any game in the Shin Megami Tensei franchise other than Devil Summoner or DemiKids, Play almost any DragonQuest game, play Lost Odyssey, Play FF II, for god's sake.

FF2? I said modern games, didn't I? In any case, my initial point in this thread was simply the fact that most modern games (including FFXII) have progressively been getting easier and more mainstream. That was all. Case in point: the monsters and bosses in FFVIII would level-out to suit your own personal level of strength, which weakened the challenge of the game considerably. FFX, was, on the whole – not overly challenging, except for some of the optional side-bosses, and FFXII more or less effectively played itself. So, my point about FFVII being one of the last real challenging games in the series I think is pretty just.

So, that means Halo was an exceptional game? I mean, it was hyped out the ass, so it must've been great! No, it was mediocre, borrowing from every FPS without doing anything significant.

You accuse me of stating things as fact albeit ironically you're doing just that. Look up some reviews for Halo on the net and I think they'd all disagree with you about Halo being a mediocre game.

One of the best RPGs of all time, in my opinion, isn't even well known to this day. Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne was part of the biggest franchise in Japan, and the third best-selling after Final Fantasy and Poke'mon. When the game debuted in the U.S., being the first game in the series, nobody knew what to think about it, so few people bought it. The one thing that convinced a few people to check it out were the simple magazine ads that ran for about 2-3 months. It basically just went over the features of the game and mentioned that Devil May Cry's Dante character was included in the game as an enemy/optional party member. So, most of the sales went to DMC fans who were curious about the ad. Nowadays, people who know about SMT: Nocturne for the most part regard it as the best PS2 RPG to this day, despite the low sales caused by bad advertisement. The developers, Atlus, even created a large amount of new copies of the game for the American market just the year before last, which were almost instantly bought by game suppliers like GameStop and the like who knew the game's rarity and quality and basically sold the game at high prices, like the price it would have had at the very day it came out. As for the game's features, it allowed you to recruit demons and angels into your party through talking to them to make contracts (unfortunately, I have to compare it to Poke'mon, though technically Poke'mon ripped the idea from this series and just made it kid-friendly), the atmosphere was, and still is, to this day, dauntingly dark and sinister, the majority of the game taking place after the world has already been destroyed. Basically, you were just a normal teenager until suddenly the majority of the human race is dead, Tokyo is warped into a sphere-world that you're trapped inside, demons are running amok and some creepy blonde kid force-fed you a creepy demon worm which has a similar effect to the Babelfish from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, only it gives you a freaky horn on the back of your neck and turns you into a demon with glowing markings as well. To put things short, 30 minutes into the game, You've already lost. Well, if SAVING the world was what you were thinking of doing. Eventually, you learn that you were forced to be part of a prophecy in which the world is eventually recreated based on your choices throughout the story, which are mostly to determine your ethical/spiritual beliefs, but every belief you can subscribe to has a dark side. The game is much deeper than most RPGs I've played, with heavy moral and religious overtones that'll cause you to think as you play.

*Snore*

 

[Zerokku]

Compared to a game like Final Fantasy VII, the storytelling in games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout, is rather one dimensional. The isometric viewpoint and storytelling consisting mostly of text, left a lot to the player's imagination much like pen and paper roleplaying games that was the basic of those games. In that way those games seemed pretty old fashioned compared to Final Fantasy VII.

That's not a bad thing. More kids these days need to learn to read and use their imagination then rely on god awful anime cliches in order to have a mildly interesting story.

Let's look at DQ, a series that is quickly becoming one of my Favorite JRPG series.

I can go and play DQ and have a fun and charming world with no pretenses, just good, clean, fun. It's not the typical JRPG (at least not by todays standards) and thats the best part. I don't have to deal with overly dramatic and pretentious plots, or an overly convoluted story that makes less sense the more you play it. DQ is all about the charming and imaginative world. I don't need any angsty beltandzipper types in order to have one hell of a fun experience.

I flat-out blaim FFVII for games like DQ not being popular in the states. Because of its propulsion of JRPGs into the mainstream in the west. We've ended up with some of the most-close minded and annoying individuals out there, that can't enjoy a JRPG unless it has some over the top pretentious faux-philisophical anime inspired bullshit. WRPG's took a gradual growth into popularity and are now incredibly well recieved with games like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect. I would have prefered for JRPGs to have done the same rather then what we've ended up with now. Instead, we get fans like CHIP.

I won't claim that Final Fantasy VII is flawless, but it does deserve credit where it's due, and it WAS a very influential and revolutionary game back in it's day and it certainly was not mediocre. The cinematic storytelling that FF VII pioneered and popularized in RPGs still lives on today in western as well as eastern RPGs and in the case of JRPGs has become very much a genre stable.

The problem is while these were "revolutionary" they are not necessarily good things. I know I for one am a bit sick of how one of my favorite genres has essentially become glorified movies with terrible plots. Atleast in WRPGs, the focus is still on the gameplay and customization.

 

[CHIP]

The problem is while these were "revolutionary" they are not necessarily good things. I know I for one am a bit sick of how one of my favorite genres has essentially become glorified movies with terrible plots. Atleast in WRPGs, the focus is still on the gameplay and customization.

And you're blaming FFVII for that, without taken into consideration, perhaps the fact that the development emphasis for all games, not only RPGs, have shifted from giving players games with technically competent gameplay, to giving them complete, blockbuster entertainment experiences as gaming has become more mainstream and advanced. It has nothing to do with FFVII. It's the way all games are being developed these days.

 

[Zerokku]

Seriously, are these honestly your reasons for not liking FFVII's characters? Because Tifa's breasts were too big, because Barrett looked like Mr T and because Cloud had blonde hair? Normally, I'd try and respect an opinion like this – but these reasons are so inconvincibly daft, I just can't. Nonetheless, I do agree with you that they were rather stereotypical, especially Barrett, but they're all still brilliantly crafted, believable, and deeply-layered characters nonetheless.

No, just no.

I do agree with you that they were rather stereotypical

still brilliantly crafted, believable,

...

I'll ask again. Do you think before you speak? Those two things don't go hand in hand. Particularly if you're looking for good and well written characters.

Compare the characters in recent FF games like Vann, and they're a lot more bland or fleshed-out.

Vaan was never even supposed to be a character in XII, much less the main character. That all has to do with matsuno's departure, something I've already touched on.

Sephrioth was a brilliantly evil, sadistic, villain, with none of the cheese you'd identity with a bond villain.

Sephiroth isn't that amazing of a villain. Sure he's got a "cool" style, but he's bland as hell and generally fails at being memorable as an actual villain. As a character, he's quite memorable, but as a villain, he fails in comparison to villains like Luca Blight, Kefka, Kuja, Saren, Jon Irenicus, Magus, Delita, ect. and that's just naming RPG villains off of the top of my head.

Cloud, did have blonde hair, well-spotted, but that by itself wasn't enough to make me dislike him. The love triangle that ensued between Tifa, Cloud and Aries, was oddly endearing for me,

While it's not as bad as love triangles in other RPG's I've played, it wasn't exactly well-crafted either. And it has the downside of annoying fangirl shippers who won't admit that Cloud was meant to be with tifa, regardless of the fact they're implied to have had sex and are living together post VII.

and Aries' death, singlehandedly packed more emotional punch than any game I've ever played.

Play moar games. The best example I can think of is The final Case of Phoenix Wright: Trials & Tribulations. Even having had the major plot twists spoiled for me, it still stands as one of the most amazing experiences I've had in gaming, and of the best examples of storytelling in video games I have ever seen.

It was pure gravy for the soul and only a dry-boned cynic would play the game stone-faced and not reap any enjoyment out of the characters.

I didn't care for her as a character, so It wasn't too important for me. Not to mention nowhere near unique in the series. V felt more heartbreaking to me, cause galuf was badass, and he atleast went down with a fight trying to save his granddaughter.

Yes, I was. Should I be ashamed of myself for being addicted to it? As I said before, though. I just thought the materia-system had it all. Great customizability, something that recent games in the series (like FFX and XII) I felt have sadly lacked. There were literally hundreds of ways you could combine different types of materia to create your own unique devastating 'spells' and affects – it was so brilliantly flexible and accessible. If you disagree with that, that's fine. It's just my opinion.

Play moar RPGs.

Please don't call me a 'blind fan' again.

But it's fun. Not to mention True

Typo.

Noted, but fun to mess with anyways.

I don't have the time to play a game that contains 'some hundred-billion words'. That, to me – sounds like overkill.

So because you don't want to/aren't interested, it's inherently bad? Cause that's what it sounds like you're insinuating.

Eh?

You're making bold claims without providing any sort of reference or comparison to back up said claims.

I agree. Most publishers these days just suck gamers in with flashy visuals in TV adverts. Nevertheless, in this specific case, FFVII deserved the hype, as it was such a brilliant game and received just great reviews. A game doesn't just receive universally 90% plus reviews if the game doesn't warrant those reviews, does it? And FFVII did.

I'm not denying it's an awesome game, It's probably my third or fourth favorite in the series. It is a 90%+ game. But there are tons and tons of games that are 90%+ that are also superior, the point we're trying to get across in this discussion.

Secondly, reviewers in magazines and major websites often don't rate the game itself, but how much money they're paid to give it a good grade. Reviews can end up being largely meaningless in that regard, particularly if you're only looking at the number and not the content of said review.

Furthermore, I don't remember seeing any advertisements for FFVII on TV, ever.

That doesn't mean they didn't exist.

FF2? I said modern games, didn't I? In any case, my initial point in this thread was simply the fact that most modern games (including FFXII) have progressively been getting easier and more mainstream.

And he listed off several more modern JRPGs, that are considerably more difficult in VII. What was your point again? Cause it seems like it was debunked.

That was all. Case in point: the monsters and bosses in FFVIII would level-out to suit your own personal level of strength, which weakened the challenge of the game considerably.

Wait, so monsters leveling with you so that you can't simply grind to make the game easier, makes the game ... easier? Lolwut?

VIII's lack of difficulty has nothing to do with the leveling system and everything to do with the absolutely broken Junction system and Overpowered summons.

FFX, was, on the whole – not overly challenging, except for some of the optional side-bosses, and FFXII more or less effectively played itself. So, considering all this – my point about FFVII being one of the last real challenging games in the series I think is pretty just.

Except that VII was easy. There was nothing remotely difficult about it. The last challenging game in the series was V. VI was easy as hell, VII was only slightly more difficult then VI, and the rest have about been on par.

You accuse me of stating things as fact albeit ironically you're doing just that. Look up some reviews for Halo on the net and I think they'd all disagree with you about Halo being a mediocre game.

Except talk with shooter fans that have played a myriad of games in the genre and ask their opinion. Halo is well recieved by the millions of people who had never played a Shooter outside of Halo, and Final Fantasy VII is the same way. The problem is these people continue to think that these admittedly incredibly well polished games are the epitome of the genre, and insulate themselves and never let themselves experience much outside if their own small niche. Case in point concering shooters. Bioshock, one of the best shooters in years, while it did well, wasn't well recieved by the fratboy halo crowd, because it was story driven and didn't feature multiplayer.

If someone has only ever read one book, say twilight, and claim it as the best book ever written, should their claim be valid? No? Then why should we do the same with gamers who make similiar claims while having only experienced a small portion of an entire genre?

*Snore*

Absolutely stunning response. I am in awe of your arguementative skills.

 

[Zerokku]

And you're blaming FFVII for that, without taken into consideration, perhaps the fact that the development emphasis for all games, not only RPGs, have shifted from giving players games with technically competent gameplay, to giving them complete, blockbuster entertainment experiences as gaming has become more mainstream. It has nothing to do with FFVII. It's the way all games are being developed these days.

VII is particularly guilty because it (along with VI) pushed JRPG's into a niche of gameplay and storytelling. It took awhile to take effect, but look at JRPGs on the PS1 in comparison to the PS2. You'll find many more varied and original settings and mechanics. When the gameplay becomes increasingly weaker, everything else doesn't have as much to stand on, something JRPG's are quite guilty of, especially in comparison to non rpg genres.

 

[Chidori]

This thread makes me sad.

VII is pretty good. We all agree its not the best game ever. Move on.

 

[CHIP]

Vaan was never even supposed to be a character in XII, much less the main character. That all has to do with matsuno's departure, something I've already touched on.

Vann was never supposed to be a character? Right. If he wasn't meant to be a character, then what was he supposed to be?

Sephiroth isn't that amazing of a villain. Sure he's got a "cool" style, but he's bland as hell and generally fails at being memorable as an actual villain. As a character, he's quite memorable, but as a villain, he fails in comparison to villains like Luca Blight, Kefka, Kuja, Saren, Jon Irenicus, Magus, Delita, ect. and that's just naming RPG villains off of the top of my head.

I'm not familiar with any of the villains you've named in the above list. Whatever though, Sephiroth still burned down villages, unleashed Genova and made the sun explode after hurling a comet at it. And as far as I'm concerned, that makes him resoundingly timeless and the ultimate badass.

Play moar games. The best example I can think of is The final Case of Phoenix Wright: Trials & Tribulations. Even having had the major plot twists spoiled for me, it still stands as one of the most amazing experiences I've had in gaming, and of the best examples of storytelling in video games I have ever seen.

Newsflash: It's my opinion. And, I've played enough games.

'll ask again. Do you think before you speak? Those two things don't go hand in hand. Particularly if you're looking for good and well written characters.

What? And FFVII did have well-written characters. So, what are you trying to prove here?

Wait, so monsters leveling with you so that you can't simply grind to make the game easier, makes the game ... easier? Lolwut?

Err… yes.

If someone has only ever read one book, say twilight, and claim it as the best book ever written, should their claim be valid? No? Then why should we do the same with gamers who make similiar claims while having only experienced a small portion of an entire genre?

The fact still remains, it wasn't a mediocre game. A 'fact' that's pretty much confirmed by the hundreds of reviews on the game scoring the game in excess of over 90%. My argument here isn't that the game is the epitome of the genre. I'm merely saying that it wasn't a mediocre gaming experience. Nothing more.

Except that VII was easy. There was nothing remotely difficult about it. The last challenging game in the series was V. VI was easy as hell, VII was only slightly more difficult then VI, and the rest have about been on par.

Well, I found it difficult, compared to FFVIII, X and XII.

Absolutely stunning response. I am in awe of your arguementative skills.

You should be. By the way, you spelt "argumentative" incorrectly.

I'm not denying it's an awesome game, It's probably my third or fourth favorite in the series. It is a 90%+ game. But there are tons and tons of games that are 90%+ that are also superior, the point we're trying to get across in this discussion.

Superior ONLY in YOUR opinion. Keyword here: Opinion.

Secondly, reviewers in magazines and major websites often don't rate the game itself, but how much money they're paid to give it a good grade. Reviews can end up being largely meaningless in that regard, particularly if you're only looking at the number and not the content of said review.
Oh please.

This is the silliest thing I've ever heard. So, what are you saying here, that no one should trust the reviews that were given to FFVII because they may have been secretly bribed? Of course.

 

[RioDragon]

Sephrioth was a brilliantly evil, sadistic, villain, with none of the cheese you'd associate with a bond villain.

Sadistic? Try Kefka from FF VI, Saren from the Mass Effect series, FREAKING NIHILUS from Star Wars: KotOR II (if I recall, he was able to suck all life from an entire planet if I remember right, and the game itself was rushed and incomplete), The Enclave from the Fallout series are more sadistic, if you consider the whole group one entity. They sure act like one!

The love triangle that ensued between Tifa, Cloud and Aries, was oddly endearing for me, and Aries' death, singlehandedly packed more emotional punch than any game I've ever played. It was pure gravy for the soul, only a dry-boned cynic would play the game stone-faced and not reap any enjoyment out of the characters.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was too busy staring at the 1992 graphics Lego people to realize I was supposed to sympathize with them. *clears throat* 'no, aeris, don't go...' *apathetic face* Need I remind how many people died in FF IV? In FF VI? Oh, that's right, you've never played those. Personally, i can sympathize more with 2D sprites than characters that look like my toys (which I made better stories with, btw). That's not to say that i don't get emotion out of anything. I cry my eyes out at Lost Odyssey on my 360, and, when you're talking movies, Grave of the Fireflies and The Green Mile always get me. So I'm not exactly 'stone-faced', I'm just apathetic to Lego people, does that make me racist?

The prerendered backdrops, CGI cut scenes, and battle sequences comprised over 99% of the actual game – and that was much better graphical quality than any '92 game I've ever seen.

Let's just be honest here... For one, The prerendered backdrops were crap compared to Resident Evil. There were lots of places in FFVII where the prerendered environments made it unclear whether something was a pole or a bridge or whether I could or couldn't walk behind it. CGI Cutscenes? Fine and dandy, but are they necessary to a game? No, they're fluff. They could have saved that money they used making the CGI and improved the game in the places that needed it. And, honestly, no matter how pretty battle sequences are, in a turn-based RPG, they are the most boring part... Countless hours spent to grind levels... Predictable enemies...

Part of my love for Action-RPGs is that they have an element of randomness to account for from time to time and keep you on your toes. Action-RPGs seem more brainless and brutal at first, but are normally more cerbral and more reflexive.

I don't have the time to play a game that contains 'some hundred-billion words'. That, to me – sounds like overkill.

That, to me, sounds like a bad excuse to miss out on a classic. In the case of Planescape: Torment, it meant that the plot, characters, events, and the world are much deeper than many RPGs of the time, and I would argue most of the ones of the present. I still find it ironic that the creator was inspired by FFVII and several other RPGs of 1997 to make a game so many leagues more detailed less than a year later.

A game doesn't just receive universally 90% plus reviews if the game doesn't warrant those reviews, does it?

Yeah. A lot of the time, they do. But mostly if it's a large/popular franchise or is backed by a large company. FFVII had both. Halo had the latter. Even though I like the Fable games, I would call them mediocre as well, because they honestly didn't do much. Peter Molyneux and Microsoft just hyped the hell out of the series. Am I stupid because I have higher standards as a Gamer and as a Game-Design Major in college...?

Na. I think I'll turn out just fine by knowing how to turn genres on their ear by analyzing the games before.

*Snore*

Your loss... I DID find another copy of SMT: Nocturne at the mall though. Just suggesting you go out and buy it. Y'know, seeing as it's got so much more going for it with only one main character.

And you're blaming FFVII for that, without taken into consideration, perhaps the fact that the development emphasis for all games, not only RPGs, have shifted from giving players games with technically competent gameplay, to giving them complete, blockbuster entertainment experiences as gaming has become more mainstream and advanced. It has nothing to do with FFVII. It's the way all games are being developed these days.

Then you ever think maybe you should stop supporting that logic by not supporting FF VII? It was one of the biggest leaders in thoughtless 'blockbuster' entertainment with, after all. I blame the MGS series for this as well. I play the MGS games and enjoy them every now and then, and I agree with several of Kojima's quotes on game design being a business of pushing the limits of the medium. it's just too bad he and Nomura of FFVII fame are pushing the wrong way. What's the point of making something a game if you only actually do anything for 5-10 minutes every hour? Keep games games and movies movies.

The fact still remains, it wasn't a mediocre game. A 'fact' that's pretty much confirmed by the hundreds of reviews on the game scoring the game in excess of over 90%. My argument here isn't that the game is the epitome of the genre. I'm merely saying that it wasn't a mediocre gaming experience. Nothing more.

The 'fact' word again. No, it's not a fact. It's combined opinions of millions of thoughtless people. Read any of the reviews, see if they ever mention any of the games we've mentioned from 1997/1998 for comparison. An accurate review of the game is looking at it amongst its peers, in both series and genre (and sometimes based on other games by the same developer).

This is the silliest thing I've ever heard. So, what are you saying here, that no one should trust the reviews that were given to FFVII because they may have been secretly bribed? Of course.

Silly, but true. The best way to tell who's not paid to make a game look good is how many comparisons to other games there are, particularly outside the series or company. Those are the people who judge things by their uniqueness and by their actual emotional/mental impact.

 

[CHIP]

Then you ever think maybe you should stop supporting that logic by not supporting FF VII? It was one of the biggest leaders in thoughtless 'blockbuster' entertainment with, after all. I blame the MGS series for this as well. I play the MGS games and enjoy them every now and then, and I agree with several of Kojima's quotes on game design being a business of pushing the limits of the medium. it's just too bad he and Nomura of FFVII fame are pushing the wrong way. What's the point of making something a game if you only actually do anything for 5-10 minutes every hour? Keep games games and movies movies.

I find it fairly amusing that you would consider FFVII to be a piece of 'thoughtless blockbuster entertainment.' In any case, it's a thorny debate. Many people would probably disagree with your opinion about "Kojima pushing the wrong way." MGS is a rare example of a game that is a blockbuster-like experience – but that doesn't sacrifice great gameplay or storytelling. MGS isn't just a thoughtless blockbuster game. The gameplay in MGS' is one of the most intricately balanced in the entire industry. The gameplay in MGS is very polished and play-tested to near perfection. You shouldn't lay the blame on games like FFVII or MGS though, it's more down to the fact that games are a technology-dependant medium. Older games, due to sheer processing limitations, simply gave developers less scope for expression. Technology twenty years ago, restricted developers efforts to produce Hollywood-like blockbuster games, so naturally, they tended to focus more of their efforts on gameplay. Now that technology has advanced – though, all developers are able to produce realistically-looking blockbuster like experiences and with CGI sequences on par with some of Hollywood's best films which otherwise would have been impossible if it wasn't for that technological leap. Nomura and Kojima aren't pushing the wrong way – they're merely making the most of the technology that they have at their disposal. That's all.

Keep games games and movies movies.

Game are still games. They're just evolving with technology.

The 'fact' word again. No, it's not a fact. It's combined opinions of millions of thoughtless people. Read any of the reviews, see if they ever mention any of the games we've mentioned from 1997/1998 for comparison. An accurate review of the game is looking at it amongst its peers, in both series and genre (and sometimes based on other games by the same developer).

Oh right. So, all of these millions of people who think differently to you are 'thoughtless?' That's nice. And what makes you think that the people who reviewed FFVII didn't compare the game to its predecessors or to similar games in the same genre? What to you base this assumption on? You just can't take the fact that FFVII received the scores it did because it deserved those scores. It's a shocking way to think, I know – but try.

That, to me, sounds like a bad excuse to miss out on a classic. In the case of Planescape: Torment, it meant that the plot, characters, events, and the world are much deeper than many RPGs of the time, and I would argue most of the ones of the present. I still find it ironic that the creator was inspired by FFVII and several other RPGs of 1997 to make a game so many leagues more detailed less than a year later.

You don't necessarily have to make a game extraordinarily long for it to be an emotionally involving or a deep experience. You only have to look at a series like Lost, especially the fourth season – to realise that you can achieve depth, complexity and emotional punch, while remaining succinct and accessible. Freedom Fighters, isn't a particularly narrative-driven game, for example, with only few lines of dialogue – but the moment when Chris commanders the TV station and broadcasts his speech to New York is an incredibly emotional moment.

Let's just be honest here... For one, The prerendered backdrops were crap compared to Resident Evil. There were lots of places in FFVII where the prerendered environments made it unclear whether something was a pole or a bridge or whether I could or couldn't walk behind it. CGI Cutscenes? Fine and dandy, but are they necessary to a game? No, they're fluff. They could have saved that money they used making the CGI and improved the game in the places that needed it. And, honestly, no matter how pretty battle sequences are, in a turn-based RPG, they are the most boring part... Countless hours spent to grind levels... Predictable enemies..

I haven't got the time or energy to cut through all this mindless guff. The backdrops were crap? Right – okay.

CGI Cutscenes? Fine and dandy, but are they necessary to a game? No, they're fluff.

Seriously? The way the game's CGI sequences (especially at the beginning of the game) blended seamlessly into the gameplay was just genius. The CGI cut-scenes added to the game's atmosphere and wow-factor, and the game's backdrops were beautifully rendered and incredibly detailed. If you've forgotten how detailed – then go back and play the game to refresh your memory. Also, why are you changing the context of discussion? We're not discussing if you disliked the random battles here, we're discussing the damn graphics.

Silly, but true. The best way to tell who's not paid to make a game look good is how many comparisons to other games there are, particularly outside the series or company. Those are the people who judge things by their uniqueness and by their actual emotional/mental impact.

The game got good reviews. Leave it at that. Stop trying to come up with stupid excuses.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was too busy staring at the 1992 graphics Lego people to realize I was supposed to sympathize with them. *clears throat* 'no, aeris, don't go...' *apathetic face* Need I remind how many people died in FF IV? In FF VI? Oh, that's right, you've never played those. Personally, i can sympathize more with 2D sprites than characters that look like my toys (which I made better stories with, btw). That's not to say that i don't get emotion out of anything. I cry my eyes out at Lost Odyssey on my 360, and, when you're talking movies, Grave of the Fireflies and The Green Mile always get me. So I'm not exactly 'stone-faced', I'm just apathetic to Lego people, does that make me racist?

Well, you may have not felt an emotional attached to the characters, but millions of other people did.

 

[Serah]

Just a quick reminder to please try and keep it civil in here. We really don't want this thread turning into a flame war. Thank you.

 

[Cloud1355]

it shouldnt be hated so much its a very good game the fact is,is that ppl go on and on about ff7 and it gets annyoing lets say they didnt yalk about it so much then the game wouldnt be so hated but instead it gets talked over a billion times about how its under-rated or over-rated

 

[Nation_Fair]

While I certainly don't hate it, and it's not my least favorite, I definitely deal out heavy criticism towards this game. Along with having, in my opinion of course, the worst graphics, controls, and two of the most irritating party members in FF history (Cait Sith and Aeris), it's also guilty of birthing the Cloud and Sephiroth fan-boys/girls.

This is a great game, that's the established "fact". But anything that is hyped up so man and responsible for hordes of fanboys is going to obviously be targeted for hatred.

 

[Totoro]

I think that fact that it's been whored out so much might put of newer gamers, and tarnish the memory older gamers have of it. I don't hate the game by any stretch. But VII needs to be remembered for what it was, innovative, compelling and a breath of fresh air.

Obviously it looks date now, and that's maybe why some newer gamers hate it, because they don't understand what it was like 10 years ago. Maybe this could lead to dislike when they get round to playing it and it doesn't live up to the preconceptions that had been built up for it.

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

It's mainly down to the fact it's whored beyond belief, Square saw the potential FFVII had to gain profit, and they exploited it, horribly. However, it's probably backfired on Square Enix in terms of reputation at least, they'ved gained the publicity through whoring the compilation, especially FFVII and more and more people seem to have come to realise that it's not a good a game as people make it out >.>

 

[aintnoscrub]

i most certaintly did not hate the game....
maybe a few did, but in the eyes of me and people i know, we see this as one of the best final fantasies to date.
i <3 ff7

 

[sarah56]

Hello

Well,As my opinion we shouldn't hated this game because it's a very good game.I agree with you.I love this game.This game is good for people....:ed:

 

[Seymour Guado]

This game is hated by alot of ppl because of its constant garner of attention. There are other games in the series that deserve some attention, and they always seem to focus of FFVII alot more than the others. Which isnt fair IMO, it should be spread around and all the games gain attention, not just 1 game with spinoffs and movies added. Thats why people hate it and cant stand it.

 

[DeadFantasy]

I thought that it was a good game however, it was pretty overrated IMO and with all the spinoffs it's crazy. Grant there are those who do like the game and don't get me wrong I like it, and enjoyed playing it but I think that's the main fact that people just think its too much. Now i'm not dawging those that have different thoughts about it etc but that's what I tend to see. Not so much for the game itself but with all the extra things that was added on as the game became more popular and demanded.