Aerith and her Faith

[coffeecup]

I'm guessing she's going to say well what about the angels decending, Gospel, use of goddamnit, the Church, kneeling while praying, etc...

Her point seems to be that taken the evidence as a whole Aeris practicing Christianity is the logical conclusion. You have to discredit more than the cross to make her capitulate imo.

I'm with you though. There's no right answer.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Then why are you trying to logically prove that Aeris pracitces Christianity? You can't say it's okay to disregard a logical contradiction for a problem (Cetra =/= Christianity), but then turn around and use that same logic to prove your own conclusions. That's a bit off..no?

This wasn't originally the argument that I was going for but whatever, I'll roll with the punches.

Its a Fantasy, I am not trying to Logically Prove there is Religion, I am evidentually trying to prove there is religion present in the Game, because there more than enough items and proofs to prove so.

I never said its only logical to assume religion exists, I said these items belong together and together that means what? Religon, and what religion do these things belong to? Christianity. That's putting the pieces together ;/.

I never said anything Conrtadicts anything, I simply stated and provided evidence that these religion numbers exist and they do, they are present countless times.

While several of the definitions ARE related to Christianity, they're not all. Therefore, a cross does NOT have to be Christian.

I choose to think that this cross is not a symbol of a religion. That's my choice. It may not be your choice, but that's okay. It doesn't have to be. I have the opinion that this cross doesn't mean anything religious. Your opinion obviously differs. I don't have a problem with your opinion being different, but I do have a problem with you saying that your perceptions of this cross are fact.

What do you have to say to that? :3

Its not just the Cross, I'm going to repeat myself here but I don't really mind, its an equation - the whole thing, you can't simply water it down to one thing or the other, these things go together, they are naturally linked as one whole.

A Church is to angels, as angels are to God.

What else could a Cross on a coffin mean, besides Religion? Religion's purpose is for the belief in life after death, a coffin is an item of death and a Cross on it means religion.

I don't have a problem with your opinion, and I am glad you don't have a problem with mine, but I haven't or atleats tried hard not to insert my opinion, I never said I think its a Church, or I think that they are Roman Angels -- because they are, you just examine and see.

I'm with you though. There's no right answer.

Can you discredit those things? If so show me, its not a matter of whether I want there to be religion, because if there isn't; right on, but its looks more like there is than it does that there isn't.

It seems like you think, I want religion to exist in FFVII, I am no going to insert my feelings and beliefs in on it; the only right way to do things is with proven fact.

 

[Lebreau]

Alright. Yes, it is a church. Yes, they are Roman angels (I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm agreeing with it anyways). I'm not saying that's not what they are.

It's how you perceive the objects that makes your opinion. How do you KNOW that the creators of the game meant for you to assume Christianity exists? I don't believe you have any way of knowing that.

I personally don't think she visited the church for religious reasons at all. I've stated again and again that I think she visited it because flowers grew there, and Aerith loved flowers. I don't know if the flowers grew there due to it being a church or not. I don't know if the game's creators even know this. Maybe they didn't think it through that much.

I've never seen those angels in game, but from the pictures you've shown, I don't think I have to believe that she's Christian for angels to come down and help her. Have you ever heard someone say "Oh, she's just an angel"? Does that mean the person is religious or has a religious connection? Nope. You can say that what I've just said has nothing to do with your Roman angels here, but my point is that what you look at something as meaning and what I do aren't the same thing. You can't tell me that you know for sure that the angels are meant to mean Christianity is in the game, or that Aerith is a Christian, because you DON'T. Has anything officially been released to tell you this? If it has, track it down and show it to me. I'll believe you if you can.

You already know my feelings on the cross. Anything else to throw at me and have me try and explain?

 

[coffeecup]

Its a Fantasy, I am not trying to Logically Prove there is Religion, I am evidentually trying to prove there is religion present in the Game, because there more than enough items and proofs to prove so.

I never said its only logical to assume religion exists, I said these items belong together and together that means what? Religon, and what religion do these things belong to? Christianity. That's putting the pieces together ;/.

I never said anything Conrtadicts anything, I simply stated and provided evidence that these religion numbers exist and they do, they are present countless times.

That's logic my friend. It's called circumstantial evidence to support your conclusion. If there's a man with a smoking gun standing above a dead man with a bullet wound and blood dripping from the wound, you use the evidence to show that it's more likely than not that he killed the guy. That's all a form of logic.

I'm guessing you didn't mean to dig yourself in this little logic hole, but rather meant from like 4 posts ago that Cetra and Christianity can coexist as a single belief. That was really the crux of my original question, so I'd like it if you could clearly reitterate your answer on why this coexisting is alright. And saying just cuz it's a fantasy game is no good.

(I was going to write a bit more to clarify, but my friends are dragging me to the new HP film so sorry if anything's unclear. I haven't even watched the two previous films, but apparently this one's suppsed to be "good." I'm just going because Hermione is legal now )

 

[GalaxyFlare]

This thread has spiraled out of control, TripleT left a few pages ago, Ada wong is being ignored, and nobody has still set universally if Aeris is practitioner of the Christian religion.

23 pages of rhetoric then? Symbols are going to be interpreted many ways, the cross is a symbol f Christianity at its very core so the fact that its is interpreted as to mean Christianity is present in FFVII is understandable.

Equally however there is no scripture or text to suggest that it is present, so the argument(if there really is one) is that is no real evidence for either point exist, it just means that we have different interpretation.

Circular logic works every time.

The amalgamation of all the various religions in FFVII makes it unrealistic to single out any and all for scrutiny, just accept that that what you believe is present in the game and be satisfied that its present at all.

The church in the slums is singular occurrence, the Da Choa statue has an entire village built around it in worship an such, if any thing II would suggest that religion has bigger presence simply because it is more apparent than say.....a beat up church in the slums?

The Cetra were to advance to believe in anything so primitive as a primordial god, you dont know what they knew and still need to believe, sounds like lm havinga shot at believers but IMO worship is a primitive thing, Aeris was not a Christain because it simply is not stated anywhere in FFVII, it may be perceived that way by some, but thats all it is is.........a perception of things.

Not actual Fact. But like most religious debates fact often seems to have no place.

If you want another argument consider this, in most games that feature a singular god construct religion there is always some mention of it in in text that you read aroundthe game world in libraries or houses you enter...........there are no such things in FFVII.

There is text about the Ancients/Cetra the Weapons, Materia, the Life Stream?

Butt none about a god?

So clearly there are preset notions involved in some of the more outlandish arguments/statements in this thread..........I could not stand being so singularly minded as to place reality over fantasy and not just accept the game for what it is.

So the Crux(you people know nothing) of the matter is no where does it say Aeris/Aerith is christain so she simply is not, thats not an interpretation or a preconceived notion or a perception its a cold hard FACT.

Now lm gonna go play FFVII to make sure my point is relevant, someones has to be!

 

[Saints&Storms]

Coffee, I didn't dig myself into a hole, I didn't and haven't. They can coexist, the mere existence of a Cross and all the other religious items proves this.

Ada, those example aren't the same in any sense, Aerith prays to her Limit Break Titled The Great Gospel, and in Chirstianity the purpose of praying is to have aid, help or a request answered, whihc is what we see Aerith doing.

Its putting 2 + 2 together, if you don't want to agree you don't have to, but all the facts are there, Gospel when associated to Angels and Praying is oftenly Chritianity. Again what would be the point of going out of their way to say "Oh, yeah Aeriths a Chirstian" when its not a main story focus?

Its just a neat tidbit for Character building purposes.

Galaxy, I haven't ignored anyone, I have gotten back to everyone, if anything I am being ignored, I have had to repeat things over and over again to have straw-man arguments of maybe's and opinion thrown at me, I answered that its not simply a Cross over and over as well, to have several people to repeat over and over that a Cross isn't always Christian even though there are other accounts to tak with it as well.

And Again God is mentioned when people say Godammit, Buddah is even in the game.

Its a Fantasy and as I said before I believe they can coexist, and they obviously are coexisting in the game. How do we know nothing, you've only just repeated things the others have said;/

 

[GalaxyFlare]

What are you talking to me for?
Im not arguing, my post was not ans argument,so dont argue with me
Being juvenile now, but I understand the annoying habit pf people repeating thew same
points over an over again.

With any luck it would all have blown over by christmas?

If you wan to argue some thing try this: Shinra outlawed the Believe in Christianity because it went against Company policy to allow belief and worship.

Again there is no proof for that ever happening is there its just another interpretation of the things presented in FFVII and this thread

I have to take Issue with your strange notion that God exists because some one says
"Goddammit" are you serious? thats just a translation of a simple phrase dont argue with that or no one will take you seriously.

For example Barett calls the Midgar plate a F!@#$%^& Pizza and you know full well it isnt, Godammit is no evidence and just really represents clutching at straws for a weak argument IMO.

thats not an interpretation or a preconceived notion or a perception its a cold hard FACT.

A very wise man once said this...........me!

 

[The Witch]

Okay, it seems as if everyone is just focusing on the cross, and not understanding that it's not just a cross we're using as evidence. It's the compilation of not only a cross, but the Gospel, roman-catholic angels, prayers to those angels, a church, and the meantioning of "holy hell", "God", and "heaven".

Gospel -
–noun 1. he teachings of Jesus and the apostles; the Christian revelation.
2. the story of Christ's life and teachings, esp. as contained in the first four books of the new testament, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
3. ( usually initial capital letter

) any of these four books.
4. something regarded as true and implicitly believed: to take his report for gospel.
5. a doctrine regarded as of prime importance: political gospel.
6. glad tidings, esp. concerning salvation and the kingdom of god as announced to the world by Christ.
7. ( often initial capital letter

) Ecclesiastical . an extract from one of the four Gospels, forming part of the Eucharistic service in certain churches.
8. gospel music.


To start this off, others have said that the word "Gospel" has "other meanings" which it does. But here's what some are missing.

Like Tory has said, when Aerith activates her limit "GREAT GOSPEL" she kneels in prayer for roman catholic angels to come help her. In other words, she's praying to something associated TO the "GOSPEL" in order for roman-catholic angels to come and help and or protect her.

It IS NOT a coincidence that the limit she prays in so that roman-catholic angels could help her is called GOSPEL. The main thing to focus on here, is that when Aerith activates Great Gospel, she kneels in prayer to something, seeking Roman-Catholic angels for help.

1. Roman-Catholic angels are associated to Christianity/Catholics.

Pictures we have given is proof enough that they are Roman-Catholic angels.

2. Kneeling in prayer to some powerful being in order for those Roman-Catholic angels to help her is also associated with Christianity/Catholics.

Christians/Catholics kneel in prayer in order for God to guide us and for protection. And those same angels are said to help guide and protect us, too.

3. Crucifix Crosses, as on Vincent's coffin, is associated with Christianity/Catholics.

As we showed on Vincent's coffin, it is not an Ankh or other type of "cross", it is a crucifix cross Jesus is associated with because he died for our sins on it. Yes it was used as punishment of death towards criminals before Christ. But for the Romans to exist that in turn proves Jesus existed. Otherwise, this crucifix cross, wouldn't have been put on Vincent's coffin. As we know, Christians/Catholics have crucifix crosses during death/funerals/coffins SIMPLY because of the fact that it is associated to Christ's ultimate payment for our sins...DEATH.

4. Gospel is associated, but not limited, to Christianity and or the Catholics.

The definition SE used "GOSPEL" as in this game is in association to the Christian/Catholic Bible and not another definition--proof is that WHEN Aerith prays during this limit coincidently titled "Gospel", Roman-Catholic angels come to her aide after she purposely kneels and prays for help from them.

Kneeling in prayer in order for Roman-Catholic Angels to come to her aide, is ONLY associated to Christianity/Catholics. And most importantly, associated to the Bible and Christ.

5. Churches are associated with Christians/biblical followers

I really don't want to delve into this for the hundreth time, so I'll make it short and sweet. The Japanese did not intend for this "building" to be something other than a Church. Why? Because the Japanese developers translated it exactly as they wanted it. Churches as we know, especially Gothic-Designed Churches as I pointed out in the past, are associated to Christ and the Bible. It is not a mosque, it is not a Temple, it is not Synagogue. The developers and characters have called it a Church time and time again--it is undoubtedly a Church.

GalaxyFlare, Aerith, as it seems, is a practicing Christian/Catholic. Why?
She visits and loves a Christian/Catholic church. She is seen activating something called "Great Gospel", praying during that activation in order for Catholic Angels to come and help her. She is, undoubtedly a Christian.


Like I've said, many religions exist in VII's world, doesn't mean Aerith practices all of them.

EDIT: What if there was a picture of Jesus in the game? Would that be enough evidence to prove Christianity or overall religion exists in VII's world?

 

[Dionysos]

(The sketch here is from an FFVII book, I could get the whole thing if you want to see it.)

If it would help this thread, then I think posting it wouldn’t be a bad thing.

And there are chubby Buddhist statues on our planet which resemble statues such as the mountain statue considered to be that of Da Chao.

Da Chao aside, I still don’t think we can claim that the smaller statue is Buddha based on appearance alone. No name is given to the statue, which in itself is hardly noticeable, and therefore it cannot be taken as fact that it is called Buddha. If you wanted to view it as such, then go ahead, but it is not concrete fact.

And its a Menorah in the Church and that's just another thing proving Religion exists, but Aerith is seen praying like a Christian, not like A Jew. The word Gospel is definitely associated with the Bible seeing as Aerith gets down and Prays then Roman angels come down to aid her, its safe to say that this Gospel is the Bible Gospel, you are watering it down to juts each thing separately but the existence of all things things in FFVII links them together. They need to be called angels now? They look like Roman angels to a T what else needs to be said? Its just playing semantics now.

Regardless of whether Aerith prays like a Christian or not, there is a Menorah on the church. Even if they still call it a church it could still throw doubt on the faith which may once have dwelled within the church.

About the angels I am just saying that we cannot claim that they are Christian angels who have descended from the sky. The game creators could just be using the religious imagery associated with this because it is a white magic spell, and angels are recognisable at a universal level to be associated with helping and healing. They could have gone for the snake and the staff, which would also have worked considering that Aerith was a staff wielder, but this isn’t as recognisable now (despite remaining a medical symbol) as angels. There isn’t time during an animation to explain little healing monsters and their purpose, or to invent an original mythology, and so they had to pick something which made sense. Angels made sense, but it shouldn’t really be taken as proof of Christian faith.

For fear that I am taking each point alone, it has merely been because I’ve been addressing points in turn. Even with all of these things combined, and with the combination of everything else people have mentioned in this thread, it seems logical to me to recognise Christian influences and references, but not a Christian faith.

So physically being there and having Characters say "Godammit" isn't enough? But you yourself said it needs to be in the text and it is.

Goddamnit is hardly God being in the text. You say it is proof that God is acknowledged on the planet, but it is likely something which they hadn’t even thought about. The game creators just threw all manner of abusive words into the mouths of Cid and Barrett, and other characters. The swear words were created here on Earth and are used in the game because people here use them and recognise them as swear words. I was joking about Da Chaodamnit and planetdamnit to try and make the point that they couldn’t exactly alter the swear words to fit the mythology of the game, as then it wouldn’t make sense to us. They could have omitted the swear word, sure, but they probably never even gave it a second thought.

Buddha must have existed since his statue is there, you can't say he didn't since its never mentioned in the text or even in the landscape, your standards go both ways.

You’re right, but that means that the interpretation of this statue can only depend on opinion, not fact.

These things are the named and titled the same things as they are on our planet, these things are added in there by people who DO know their meanings and histories, and again its shown our solar system in the game, our planets.

Only if you want to take a battle animation as a story event. That’s up to you personally, and some people do so you are not alone, but other people would separate battle animations like this from any realm of sense. For example, the planets which are seen being destroyed are being destroyed more than once if Supernova is used more than once, and our planet would likely not survive such a blast itself if it was indeed really our planet and happening to us.

Fish and Dragons have historically been mistaken for one another, through history, people used to think the Loch Ness monster may be a dragon.

I can see where this comes from, but I was talking more about Bahamut in FF1 being a king of dragons and a character in his own right. While he is mythology-based and inspired he is much more than just a representation of the mythical fish. When he became a summon he very much remained a dragon like this. He could be perceived as his own character now, just like Shiva and just like Gilgamesh. They have Final Fantasised these characters and made them their own.

Who says earth gets destroyed? The point is its mentioned in the game, you say of something is mentioned in text then it does exist, these planets are our planets right? Then they exist. It is a Fantasy and the planet couls live through anything.

In the Supernova animation it looks as if the planet disappears, and all of the characters are suspended in space during the explosions / etc. The clouds reform and everything is back to normal. Rinse and repeat. To me it appears if it is an illusion created by Sephiroth to psyche out the party. The creators have used out solar system so that we would be glued to our seats and yelling “woah! Sephiroth is destroying everything! We’re gonna die!”, and therefore the audience would be more intimately connected with the battle.

Like I said earlier, it depends on if you want to view this as such or not. There is no right and wrong, for no-one can really tell you that.

You just said it your self, A pig is a pig no matter what people believe it to be, just because someone refuses to acknowledge that it is a Pig doesn't make it any less a pig.

And that’s what I was always saying, and the same with the car. I think the points I was trying to make here have been lost somewhere, misunderstood, or perhaps they just weren’t very clear (for which I’m sorry). I don’t know how else to put it without confusing the matter further, or quoting myself, though that’ll just loop the problem.

Cloud isn't a name its an thing, its only popular because FFVII, Names aren't what makes me believe religion exists in the game Aerith Practicing it makes me believe that, the existence of Churches, Crosses, Angels, God and Sin makes me believe it. Fandoms create languages, planets and Religions all of the time and become popular take Lord of The Rings for example.

This is true but it is always a risk. It takes a genius to actually make up a language which works. It takes a lot of effort. You can’t just throw mumbo-jumbo together and hope that it makes sense. You need to eventually work out rules and grammar if it is to become a spoken language. The creators of FFVII, and of most fiction, did not see it worth their while to develop this planet in that much detail.

Just because it isn't shown speaking of it happening doesn't mean it didn't occur.

It doesn’t mean that it did either, though.

I know where Vincent is I have obviously played the game, but its a Coffin an Item of physical and spiritual parting from life, a Cross present on the coffin proves that there are those who believe there is a spiritual parting after death, and that example is to be Christianity, thats the only reason for a Cross on a coffin, not to look spooky or represent vampires, its only Gothic because of the Midieval Crusades/Holy Wars, no other reason.

It might ultimately mean that on Earth to the right people, but in a fictional world relying on audience reaction and recognition this might not be the case. A cross, or even a crucifix, is a part of vampire lore. Vincent is often called a vampire, and he certainly has a monster quality to him, and can transform into monsters from various horror fiction.

But we can assume and/or know they are since there are Crosses, Churches, talk of blasphemy, Gospel, Praying as Christians do, Angels Statues in Edge, and Buddha who looks like Buddha not Da Chao. Faith and Belief doesn't quite equal Religion, yet you somehow get that equation but Crosses/Churches/Roman Angels/Praying/Blasphemy/ the word God even don't equate to Religion/Christianity, your assumption is far more far-fetched than mine.

What is religion without a belief in said religion? Surely everything else is to aid the religion, a development of the religious culture behind it. The belief is the most crucial aspect of any religion. If no-one believes in the religion anymore then there is no religion. If people change the symbolism, architecture of places of worship, then while there may be uproar in conservative sects of the cult, the religion could still survive if they still believe in the deities involved.

It is possible for everyone to still attend a place of worship, and not to believe in a god, but to each lie to one another, but if no-one believes in the god then does it exist? In the minds of the people of the planet, does the god exist at all? It doesn’t matter about whether or not a god really is out there, since belief of existence in a god relies on personal faith.

ts a Fantasy; Whats not to say that SE mixed all these faiths together, it is a Fantasy World, but nothing can deny that they are there, they may be altered but they are there.

Then if that is so, then it comes back to multi-faith, and therefore we are left with something which cannot be Christianity.

I don't have a problem with your opinion, and I am glad you don't have a problem with mine, but I haven't or atleats tried hard not to insert my opinion, I never said I think its a Church, or I think that they are Roman Angels -- because they are, you just examine and see.

You don’t need to label it as “I thinks” for it to be an opinion. Stating what you believe to be fact is in itself an opinion of what you believe to be the truth.

If you want another argument consider this, in most games that feature a singular god construct religion there is always some mention of it in in text that you read aroundthe game world in libraries or houses you enter...........there are no such things in FFVII.

And this is very true. In most games where they make an effort to show a specific religion they make it very well known in the text, and the mythology behind the game is explained in some way. FFVII explains the Cetra and the Lifestream, the beliefs of the people on Cosmo Canyon, and Wutai is explained in some form (though hardly at all). The faith of Midgar isn’t developed.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but it does mean that we don't really know what it the beliefs are or what any of it really is, though we could make guesses.

Its putting 2 + 2 together, if you don't want to agree you don't have to, but all the facts are there, Gospel when associated to Angels and Praying is oftenly Chritianity. Again what would be the point of going out of their way to say "Oh, yeah Aeriths a Chirstian" when its not a main story focus?

If she is a Christian, and it is as blatant as you make it out to be, then they should go out of their way to state this or explain this, so that she doesn’t appear to conflict with the rest of the story: her past, her connection with the planet, her being killed by Jehovah (in Sephiroth’s form). It doesn’t make a lot of sense if she is considered a Christian, yet she is stabbed during a prayer-like ritual by the god she may have been praying to (yet we know it was the planet, or Holy – I can’t remember which).

Galaxy, I haven't ignored anyone, I have gotten back to everyone, if anything I am being ignored, I have had to repeat things over and over again to have straw-man arguments of maybe's and opinion thrown at me, I answered that its not simply a Cross over and over as well, to have several people to repeat over and over that a Cross isn't always Christian even though there are other accounts to tak with it as well.

It may seem as if this thread is not getting anywhere, but that isn’t the same as us ignoring you. I’ve tried my hardest to comment on 99% if not 100% of what you and others have said in the past few pages, and other people have done the same. I’d say that 75% of other people's posts are being ignored though, in general. It might not be a conscious thing, but it is how it appears, and lots of people have tried to say this. A lot of this thread has been overlooked, and some points are made on nearly every page yet haven’t ever been picked up on or discussed. To discuss isn’t to agree, but some topics have just never left the posts of a few people who proposed them, and they haven’t been entertained at all.

With any luck it would all have blown over by christmas?

They said that about The Great War.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

the thing in the sketch really isnt that clear tbh it could be anything.

so far i havent seen anyone deny that religion/faith exists in the game, its just cali and tori "proving"...nothing. coffeecup's hit the nail on the head tbh.

also tori i think you might be demanding answers from the wrong person. none of us can tell you as a fact that religious symbols in the game are intended to represent (in the game) what they represent in reality. its just a game after all but if it bothers you that much why not write to mr story man at square enix and ask him.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Jim existing outside the SB and Spam bits of FFF is ominous indeed, perhaps we have seen the unleashing of the dragon?

I think this whole discussion is a mute point anyway,really we are just arguing over things that have nothing to do with the game it self, such discussions are often very stimulating but this one just seems be like a water wheel.

Around and around with the same nonsense.

Even if we did get "official" conformation those for the belief Aeris/Aerith is Christian would simply just ignore it any way...............at least that my experience with such
points that are shut down.

 

[The Witch]

EDIT: What if there was a picture of Jesus in the game? Would that be enough evidence to prove Christianity or overall religion exists in VII's world?

none of us can tell you as a fact that religious symbols in the game are intended to represent (in the game) what they represent in reality. its just a game after all but if it bothers you that much why not write to mr story man at square enix and ask him.

So, we can't use our brains and see things like crosses, churches, roman-catholic angels, Gospel, and prayers and make a logical conclusion, then?





If we can't be logical enough to see evidence-and churches, crucifix crosses, gospel, prayers to angels, and roman-catholic angels are INDEED evidence of Christianity existing-and make a logical conclusion from it, then what would EVER be the point in debating ANYTHING? Or for that matter, in this instance, evidence or helping facts are now rendered meaningless and opinion now has the upper hand...when that's not how debates are won. Debates are won by providing evidence and facts.

Fact is, there are crosses, churches, gospel, roman-catholic angels, and prayers for those angels to help her. And like I said here they're all signs that Christianity does exist. And if it does exist, Aerith is obviously practicing it. Hence why she prays during the "Gospel" so that Roman-Catholic Angels will come to her aide.

It is NOT up to debate what those facts represent. They represent Christianity and the Bible. Just as Ifrit represents the Arabic demon. Just as hades represents Hell.

The Gospel, Christian Church, Roman-Catholic Angels, Prayers so those angels could give aide, and Crucifix crosses are INDEED-and can only- represent Christianity/Catholics/Bible/Jesus.


Like I said above, if Aerith prays during the Great Gospel so that Roman Catholic Angels will give her aide, not to mention she visited a Christian Church day after day, she is most definitly supposed to be Christian.

As stated before, Pluto, Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury, and Venus are apart of their solar system. (also identical to our planets)

Not only that, but in Tifa's bar, there are signs with the word "Texas" and at Costa Del Sol there's a drink called "Blue Hawaii" not only a reference to the state/island Hawaii, but also to Elvis Presley's movie Blue Hawaii.(link)

I wonder what Blue Hawaii could represent? Or what about "Texas"?

EDIT: What if there was a picture of Jesus in the game? Would that be enough evidence to prove Christianity or overall religion exists in VII's world?

I enjoy how no one answered my last post.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

People are sick of the rhetoric Cali, nothing is certain and your holding on to the POV that it is certain is just draining, so we are all happy for you that you belief so strongly that Aeris/Aerith is a Christian just dont expect every one to agree with you.

Its not really that important and if you think it is then that a little weird and obsessive IMO, there are signs sure, but it does not clarify anything you placing your own beliefs on the game and expecting everyone else to see them as the same.

Its just not realistic.

Similis vester Deus......

 

[Marquis of Granby]

ok

it represents whatever mr maker man decides it represents. in a fictional world where magic exists its not unthinkable that a religion/faith similar in some aspects to christianity could exist but not actually be christianity. to be completely fictional the game would have to be totally abstract. have its own language, numerical system, yadda yadda, but they cant do that because then no one will understand it and thus will not want to play it. theyve referred to religions and faiths that we know exist (unfortunately) in our reality in order for us to better understand that there is a faith/multiple faiths in the game. it never states what that is. a cross represents nothing to me. an angel represents something i might put on top of a christmas tree.

its a kids game and youre trying to analyse the most intricate insignificant things about it, youre going to see what you want to see - and you have. and youre trying to present that as evidence. if you want to believe aeris is (or should that be was. does it even matter since she's not real?) a christian then im happy for you, but that doesnt make it so, nor does a cross, or angels or the fact that they mention "god" or any of the other blah blah blahs.

im not religious at all, sometimes i'll say "oh my god". i dont have a god, it means nothing, its a figure of speech. a church is only a church if you speak english, just as a pig is only a pig if you speak english. theyre only words and out of context (of their respective language) they dont mean the same/anything. just like a religious symbol. out of context (of our reality) they dont necessarily mean the same thing...or anything for that matter.

buuuuuuuuuuuuut its all just pretend so there's no need to go on about it for 20+ pages. or so you would think.

 

[Saints&Storms]

I'll try to get the sketch tomorrow, but for now I am going to get to your whole post, I can't remember where I found it so it might take a while to locate again.

If it looke like Buddha I think its easy to say its Buddha, I mean he has his hand in the same position and everything, but there is always the combat of it never being stated that it is Buddha, though I think is something is identical to an Item it must be that item, I guess we'd need a quote or interview to seal the deal for any skeptical thoughts and to answer every last question.

The Da Chao are all of the Statues on the Wutai mountain.

I think I already debunked her possibly being Jewish but, I guess the Menorah looking item on the Church could be a Menorah, but as I am learning in this thread we can't go on visual basis alone no matter how solid they seem to be.

To be roman styke angels means Catholic style, since the New testament was adapted in Greek, and Rome is basically where the Religion flourished after Jesus' teachings, angels in Roman Garb that came to a call from a woman praying by using a limit called Gospel, seems to spell out Christianity. We could more soon assume the Angels are meant from Godly aspects than just for healing, since Aerith prays to a Limit call the Gospel. And Angels and Praying solidifies the meaning of Gospel in this context pretty much. They could have gone for the snake and staff but they chose Angelic and Godly or Religious themes instead, they chose to make the connectiongs with the many other Christian connotation's they made. Aeriths limit is Canon, she even used the limit in Advent Children and the Canon way to defeat Sephiroth n FFVII is to use Omni-Slash.
It isn't Angels alone that spell Christianity, its the way she is praying, the limit that initiates her prayer, and what aids her when she prays.

Aerith actually getting down and praying isn't an influence, its a plain, solid thing in the game.

It could be likely that they just threw it in there, but "God" and "Dammit" are strictly religious tied words, they aren;t words without specific meanings, they have meanings and they are used in text. These two words are religious stemmed words, there isn't anyway around it, there has or had to have been a belief in a God for you to use or even have the words God & dammit. Unless they have new meanings in the FFVII world, which I guess you could say they do as equally as I say they don't.

Oh, I know you were joking, its just that that was a good example, there are other deities in FFVII and they could have easily used them, but they chose these specific words, "God" & "dammit", the existence of other deities means there could be ours as well, or even their version of our religions.

I guess it can rely on opinion only, since there is basically an argument for anything if the creators themselves haven't stated it, I guess this thread is kinda pointless then. Since we can't really gather the evidence & put it together ourselves; because there hasn't been an official statement. I guess evidence really can't serve its purpose then :/

The planet being destroyed has happened in the previous FF game, VI has the planet endure a fiery inferno, he caused earthquakes and even blows it up that's Canon and their planet survives.

I know in FF Bahamut is a Dragon, but in old tales Fish and Dragons could basically pass for one another and usually were confused for each other. I guess it is possible for them to take our things and put their own spins on them. It is a Fantasy after all.

The planet Earth doesn't really disappear, its just engulfed in flames, as is the FFVI planet by fire as well. FF planets have gone through catastrophes before, it isn't far-fetched at all really. I think in a Fantasy anything can happen, feathers are raising people from unconsciousness.

I agree with this, there really is no right or wrong answer, but there is leaning evidence.

I don't know, if something looks like something to a T, I am going to say it is that thing. Whether or not it is stated or not, it is that thing. I don't think you were confusing anything, I think we are both trying to make the same analogy that's all.

They invented so many other things what would be so hard about inventing names or languages, or even new modes of transportation? I guess everyone has a theory though. A Vampire is also a religious thing as well,pecially when tied to a cross, they only are assoctiated with crosses because Vampires shun away from God, being evil and demonic and all. Cant have vamps without God. I guess having our identical solar system doesn't have to meanthey are in the same universe, but it seems that way to me.

I don't believe that the SE crew would have to build up the story for us on Religion or even the Bibel when it is already out there for us to dicover in Bibles, FFVII is a western game and Christianity is a natural western theme. Yeah you can't have gos if no one believes in him, but we see Aerith pray flat out to a Gospel and Angels help her.

Aerith isn;t alone attending a place of worship, but we see her practice it in great Gospel as well.

Our world is Multi-Faith, doesn't mean everyone practices it. Religions exist, people practice a single religion, unless Aerith is like Ghandi, which seems likely as well XD

Aerith is killed by an Extraterrestrial named Jenova, not God/Jehova, they again don'tb reallyt need to go into it, since it is A. Notr a main focus for the story line B. Just a character building fact, and C. natural to the western and eastern world. Jenova isn'y God, they just have similar names. And she prays to Holy, its just the way to initiate the Materia.

Argor, I know you have gotten back to my post but some members just come in without even a glance to the rest of this thread and ask or persist on things that have been answered, I never ignored Ada's post and I answered everyone else's I think the only one who has been ignored was me really, since I have repeated that the Christian symbols go to gether and can't be singled out by themselves but are puzzle pieces that go together. To see people keep coming in and saying they've been ignored when I answered there posts is a little irksome.

People are sick of the rhetoric Cali, nothing is certain and your holding on to the POV that it is certain is just draining, so we are all happy for you that you belief so strongly that Aeris/Aerith is a Christian just dont expect every one to agree with you.

Its not really that important and if you think it is then that a little weird and obsessive IMO, there are signs sure, but it does not clarify anything you placing your own beliefs on the game and expecting everyone else to see them as the same.

Its just not realistic.

Similis vester Deus......

Cali is asking questions in a debate, debates are draining, they are there to find answers and explanations not to find straw-man arguments that really have no evidence to them. I think we've said a million times you don't have to agree, but don't say it ain't there without showing evidence.

I think posting on a forum for a game qualifies as a little obsessive, I also think you saying that was a little off putting. There are more than signs, but people can again say that doesn't necessarily mean this or that, even thought they are known for one meaning alone.

A Fantasy Game isn't realistic either, but hey we gotta play the cards we are dealt, right?

 

[Dionysos]

So, we can't use our brains and see things like crosses, churches, roman-catholic angels, Gospel, and prayers and make a logical conclusion, then?

You can if you wish, and everyone has a right to. It’s just that a lot of our logical conclusions differ to yours.

EDIT: What if there was a picture of Jesus in the game? Would that be enough evidence to prove Christianity or overall religion exists in VII's world?

I enjoy how no one answered my last post.

You’d ninja’d me and I was too tired to extend my post when I’d finished it last night.

If there was a picture of Jesus in the game, the it would be enough to notice very, very strong Christian inspiration and usage, but unless this image was accompanied with a name then we still can’t claim it to be Jesus. It’ll fall into the same category as the Wutai statues. If it was Jesus on the cross then there would be a stronger case, but it wouldn’t be watertight. Regardless, he isn’t seen in the game.

Not only that, but in Tifa's bar, there are signs with the word "Texas" and at Costa Del Sol there's a drink called "Blue Hawaii" not only a reference to the state/island Hawaii, but also to Elvis Presley's movie Blue Hawaii.(link)

I wonder what Blue Hawaii could represent? Or what about "Texas"?

References which we will understand and enjoy, but this does not mean that Texas or Hawaii exist on the FFVII planet. If they did, where are they hiding? Unless The King fled to the FFVII planet too, introducing them to a drink and talking about Texas.

I think I already debunked her possibly being Jewish but, I guess the Menorah looking item on the Church could be a Menorah, but as I am learning in this thread we can't go on visual basis alone no matter how solid they seem to be.

I’m not trying to say that she is Jewish. I’m just trying to state that it throws doubt on the “Christianity is the only religion she is connected to” argument. I don’t believe that there are the beliefs behind the Menorah in this game either, just like I don’t believe that he beliefs behind the crosses or the churches are also present, which are also only seen on a visual basis.

To be roman styke angels means Catholic style, since the New testament was adapted in Greek, and Rome is basically where the Religion flourished after Jesus' teachings, angels in Roman Garb that came to a call from a woman praying by using a limit called Gospel, seems to spell out Christianity. We could more soon assume the Angels are meant from Godly aspects than just for healing, since Aerith prays to a Limit call the Gospel. And Angels and Praying solidifies the meaning of Gospel in this context pretty much. They could have gone for the snake and staff but they chose Angelic and Godly or Religious themes instead, they chose to make the connectiongs with the many other Christian connotation's they made. Aeriths limit is Canon, she even used the limit in Advent Children and the Canon way to defeat Sephiroth n FFVII is to use Omni-Slash.

Like I said, they did choose angels as opposed to anything else, but that is most likely down to them being much more instantly recognisable worldwide than a snake and staff, or indeed any other thing. Since it was a limit break animation and not a summon, or another creature named move, it has to be very recognisable given that it was to have no written description. Great Gospel was chosen to give a religious aura, and angels come to aid her for the same reason. Both of these things are Christian allusions, likely, but when all of this evidence comes from a single move (and a battle animation at that) it isn’t that reliable. Instead it could all be thrown together as one thing; a battle animation used to show faith and healing, with a Christian name and face or appearance.

It could be likely that they just threw it in there, but "God" and "Dammit" are strictly religious tied words, they aren;t words without specific meanings, they have meanings and they are used in text. These two words are religious stemmed words, there isn't anyway around it, there has or had to have been a belief in a God for you to use or even have the words God & dammit. Unless they have new meanings in the FFVII world, which I guess you could say they do as equally as I say they don't.

I’d argue that not only do they not have a new meaning in the FFVII world, but these words likely have no meaning at all in this world. The meaning is found here, on Earth. Earth humans wrote the script for the FFVII game, and therefore it is our words that are being used. Any loudmouthed white American or African-American may use Goddamn several times a day, and Cid and Barrett were both based on these types. In fact many, many people would use Goddamn multiple times anyway.

In my opinion, there doesn’t have to be a God to damn anything, and the creators of the game likely didn’t give any of this a thought when they decided to make Cid tell everyone to drink their Goddamn tea.

The planet being destroyed has happened in the previous FF game, VI has the planet endure a fiery inferno, he caused earthquakes and even blows it up that's Canon and their planet survives.

It does, yes, but that planet isn’t literally blasted into smithereens and nothingness, leaving the party floating in space, yet to reset as soon as the animation ends and reality comes back into view.

I agree with this, there really is no right or wrong answer, but there is leaning evidence.

There isn’t even any leaning evidence, though. This thread suffers horribly with people claiming that the evidence must mean one thing only, whereas in reality there are multiple interpretations of the very same evidence.

Whether or not it is stated or not, it is that thing. I don't think you were confusing anything, I think we are both trying to make the same analogy that's all.

That was part of the point, yes. The other point I was making was regarding the faith or belief in religion, which is different from a pig and a car.

Yeah you can't have gos if no one believes in him, but we see Aerith pray flat out to a Gospel and Angels help her.

Where we differ is that you are assuming that angels, Gospel and praying are all connected with God on the FFVII universe. That’s not fact, and other people are disagreeing.

Our world is Multi-Faith, doesn't mean everyone practices it. Religions exist, people practice a single religion, unless Aerith is like Ghandi, which seems likely as well XD

But the point was that you’d suggested that Aerith could worship a combination of Cetra faith and Christianity, which would be quite a conflict.

Aerith is killed by an Extraterrestrial named Jenova, not God/Jehova, they again don'tb reallyt need to go into it, since it is A. Notr a main focus for the story line B. Just a character building fact, and C. natural to the western and eastern world. Jenova isn'y God, they just have similar names. And she prays to Holy, its just the way to initiate the Materia.

It's a major focus of the storyline, and is one of the most crucial scenes in the entire game. I don’t think it is possible to state all the other evidence as leaning one way, but then to ignore Jenova / Jehovah. It’s not just a similar name, it is another allusion. Jenova is a combination of Jehovah and nova, and Sephiroth is also a term very much connected to God. I read somewhere that the entire game has a religious interpretation too, and that it is representing a Shinto response to Christian and western culture, adapting and altering, and reforming itself in response to what is perceived as an alien threat. There are reasons for this just the same as anything else in the game which may have reasons. I’m not stating that Jenova IS God, as I don’t believe that any of that really exists in the FFVII world, but if everything discussed in this thread was shown to exist then I would say that we can’t ignore these either, and therefore if we do acknowledge these then it throws it all into a mess again anyway.

Argor, I know you have gotten back to my post but some members just come in without even a glance to the rest of this thread and ask or persist on things that have been answered, I never ignored Ada's post and I answered everyone else's I think the only one who has been ignored was me really, since I have repeated that the Christian symbols go to gether and can't be singled out by themselves but are puzzle pieces that go together. To see people keep coming in and saying they've been ignored when I answered there posts is a little irksome.

Without going too much into this, the reason people aren’t always talking about the repeated Christian symbols (though I believe the majority are posting about it) is because they are mentioned in every post and on every page. I think people have grown tired with trying to give their opinions on what these symbols mean, but they are not ignoring them. On the other hand, there are still a lot of things that other people have put forward which haven’t really been discussed yet.

 

[Six]

Cali is asking questions in a debate, debates are draining, they are there to find answers and explanations not to find straw-man arguments that really have no evidence to them. I think we've said a million times you don't have to agree, but don't say it ain't there without showing evidence.

From reading this thread (Dear god, why am I replying to this idiotic thread in the first place) no offense to anyone, not the makers of this thread, the believers, or the non-believers.

Seriously, what everyone is trying to say here, those saying it's NOT Christianity, they aren't doing this

but don't say it ain't there without showing evidence.

They're aware of the crosses, they're aware of the names, but even if I were to name my kid Eva or Adam, it doesn't mean they're religious. A name says nothing. A 'Cross' is JUST a name it gained for the shape. 'Cross' doesn't just come around in religion.

That great Gospel, or whatever everyone is talking about, once again is JUST a name, YES, BUT THERE'S ANGELS INVOLVED, angels aren't automatically religious. People draw them, use them in paintings, hell, people even get 'angel wing' tattoos that aren't religious, and have no meaning but to like them. If you're saying that however, you're not only shoving your religion but your opinion down someone's throat as well.

Along with many threads, the thread name is a question. If you ASK 100 people a question which can be answered with an opinion, I dare guarantee you that there will be at LEAST 10 different opinions. If you don't want people to say it's there for a different reason, while you're convinced they're there because of religion you shouldn't even ask this. If that's what you want, make a thread on WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THIS.

Don't ask someone something, and then argue their opinions, that's retarded. If you're so convinced, make a thread on WHO'S WITH ME ON THIS, instead of letting people try and tell you otherwise, while it will NOT change your opinion.

Some people get slapped in the face with evidence and they'll still say "Well, but I still think this and this." Seriously?

As far as this thread goes. It's pointless.

POINTLESS. Both to you Cali, Tori, and everyone else that is against what you believe (I'm naming you two because I know you two strongly think it is, and a lot of others aren't).

If Square wanted it to be about religion and put it in for those reasons, then it's certainly related to religion. But if Square wanted it, because they simply liked the names, the shapes, the idea of a church because of what most people think with churches, then by all means this is NOT religious.

For those of you that are still going on about this, I would advise you to contact Square. (good luck) because your opinions are nothing, and completely pointless when they give their answers, which, like the LTD, they will not. No matter how many hints one party gets/makes up.

Thanks for the tl;dr.

Ps. And as for me. I couldn't care less if it was about religion or not, threads like these take all the fun out of the game itself for me. ENJOY the game for what it is, don't tear it apart with facts you don't have, because NO ONE KNOWS THE DAMN REASON, BUT SQUARE.

Everyone has their own copy to the damn game, it's yours, you own it, just like you own your own thoughts, opinions, and whatever the hell else, everyone do everyone a favour and apply those opinions to your own copy of the game.

-.-





Thank you.

 

[Saints&Storms]

I’m not trying to say that she is Jewish. I’m just trying to state that it throws doubt on the “Christianity is the only religion she is connected to” argument. I don’t believe that there are the beliefs behind the Menorah in this game either, just like I don’t believe that he beliefs behind the crosses or the churches are also present, which are also only seen on a visual basis.

I was never saying it the only she is connected to, she could be connected to a number of things, who knows, she is the main girl after all. A Menorah looking item's existence doesn't really throw doubt into it. I mean she is only see praying like Christians do, she doesn't pray like any other faith does. Its not just crosses and Churches even though before this debate I'll be honest I was sure that's all you need to show Religion. But its not just a Cross and A Church, its a compilation of all of of these strictly religious things.
Naturally, when praying is associated with Gospel and beckons Angels then you can assume it either (A. Religion at all or (B. A Specific Religion. I guess like I said before in my other post this thread is virtually useless -- since we'd need a solid answer from the creators to debate it any further right?

Like I said, they did choose angels as opposed to anything else, but that is most likely down to them being much more instantly recognisable worldwide than a snake and staff, or indeed any other thing. Since it was a limit break animation and not a summon, or another creature named move, it has to be very recognisable given that it was to have no written description. Great Gospel was chosen to give a religious aura, and angels come to aid her for the same reason. Both of these things are Christian allusions, likely, but when all of this evidence comes from a single move (and a battle animation at that) it isn’t that reliable. Instead it could all be thrown together as one thing; a battle animation used to show faith and healing, with a Christian name and face or appearance.

No, Angels and Praying to a Gospel are associated with God and Faith/Religion not healing, I mean yeah eventually when you start cracking down what Faith and God are about its about healing, but Angels represent God not healing -- healing is just something Religious people associate it with, since most religious people turn to God for healing and answers. Exactly they put these three things [Paraying to a Gospel to beckon Angels] together to show Faith in Aerith's persona, you acknowledging this only proves more strongly that not only did the creators know Angels, Praying and Gospel are religiously tied, but they intended it to look that way. If the creators made it, its reliable, you don't have to look at it but it can't really be discredited when Aerith uses it in Advent Children as well as Cloud using his Limit Breaks.

I’d argue that not only do they not have a new meaning in the FFVII world, but these words likely have no meaning at all in this world. The meaning is found here, on Earth. Earth humans wrote the script for the FFVII game, and therefore it is our words that are being used. Any loudmouthed white American or African-American may use Goddamn several times a day, and Cid and Barrett were both based on these types. In fact many, many people would use Goddamn multiple times anyway.

In my opinion, there doesn’t have to be a God to damn anything, and the creators of the game likely didn’t give any of this a thought when they decided to make Cid tell everyone to drink their Goddamn tea.

You can, but trying to alter the meaning of strict words like that seems discreditable to me. I don't know how "God" can have a new meaning, or "Damn" for that reason, but I can't really prove that we have to use a words meaning to a word I guess. If Earth humans wrote the game, implemented our naturally used words then why couldn't they naturally implement our religions for lack of better enthusiasm to invent one? The point I was trying to make though was; words are words with meanings before they are used for anything, they aren't just - words.

In my point of view, I can't imagine the word God meaning anything otherwise then God, but I can't properly discredit your reasoning either, so like others have said I guess this is a Mute point. I don;t think they put much thought behind a word because the word had a meaning already though.

It does, yes, but that planet isn’t literally blasted into smithereens and nothingness, leaving the party floating in space, yet to reset as soon as the animation ends and reality comes back into view.

The limit doesn't show the planet being blown into nothingness, a white light engulfs the screen but it does show the other planets being disintegrated, and I think if Kefka could blow a planet up and have it survive and back on its feet in a year or two, then so could VII's.

There isn’t even any leaning evidence, though. This thread suffers horribly with people claiming that the evidence must mean one thing only, whereas in reality there are multiple interpretations of the very same evidence.

When other things accompany one thing, that could be thought to mean one things then I think that solidifies the meaning.

A Gospel alone, yeah could mean anything, but a Gospel accompanied with Praying and Angels, means one thing; religion.

There really isn't anything in game for FFVII that discredits the possibility of Religion existing, rather than it just simply not being mentioned.

That was part of the point, yes. The other point I was making was regarding the faith or belief in religion, which is different from a pig and a car.

The point I was making was it doesn't have to be an item or animal like a pig and car, it could be anything, the point is if something looks like blank, is called blank and acts like blank, then it must be blank.

Where we differ is that you are assuming that angels, Gospel and praying are all connected with God on the FFVII universe. That’s not fact, and other people are disagreeing.

When coming in a small package like that, when they are all so neatly bound together like they are in Aeriths limit, it does mean one thing. Praying for a need and beckoning angels to a Limit called Gospel basically means religion, I don;t have to wonder what the menaing of Gospel is because the answer is in Aeriths limit, angels come when she prays, it safe to say Gospel in this "Context" is religious.

But the point was that you’d suggested that Aerith could worship a combination of Cetra faith and Christianity, which would be quite a conflict.

I don't think being a Cetra is a Faith, I think it is a sort of being, I don't remember Cetra having any other religious belief than seeking just the Promised Land.

It's a major focus of the storyline, and is one of the most crucial scenes in the entire game. I don’t think it is possible to state all the other evidence as leaning one way, but then to ignore Jenova / Jehovah. It’s not just a similar name, it is another allusion. Jenova is a combination of Jehovah and nova, and Sephiroth is also a term very much connected to God. I read somewhere that the entire game has a religious interpretation too, and that it is representing a Shinto response to Christian and western culture, adapting and altering, and reforming itself in response to what is perceived as an alien threat. There are reasons for this just the same as anything else in the game which may have reasons. I’m not stating that Jenova IS God, as I don’t believe that any of that really exists in the FFVII world, but if everything discussed in this thread was shown to exist then I would say that we can’t ignore these either, and therefore if we do acknowledge these then it throws it all into a mess again anyway.

Jenova isn't God, she doesn't resemble Gos in any attribute, if she were God, and you were now admitting there is a Godlike thing then why do we see Aerith praying to a Gospel beckoning angels? The simple answer is Jenova isn't God. Cloud name means Cloud, does that make him a Cloud? No.
I don't ever remember seeing that in a interview or any FFVII related statement released by SE, maybe it was a theory written by someone that you read? Because I have never heard anything officially like that.
Back in you other post you said Aerith was being killed by God, I guess the way you worded it confused me.

Aerith shares a similar role to Jesus, what with the dying to save the planet/hmans for other peoples crimes and all, does that make her Jesus? No, just shows that the Creators were even more religiously minded when making this game.

Jenvoa and Sephiroth resides in a place that has many levels such as the Hell we read about in Dante's inferno, Edge is even antoher name for the Limbo in Hell. She is more likely to be Satan while Sephiroth closer resembles Beelzebub/or the Anti-Christ, Satan is said to come back and say he is God after all, and Sephiroth does try to become God in FFVII and believes he is much greater.

Without going too much into this, the reason people aren’t always talking about the repeated Christian symbols (though I believe the majority are posting about it) is because they are mentioned in every post and on every page. I think people have grown tired with trying to give their opinions on what these symbols mean, but they are not ignoring them. On the other hand, there are still a lot of things that other people have put forward which haven’t really been discussed yet.

That wasn't the only part of my posts being ignored but, it doesn't matter I was just saying that no one is being ignored, at least not by me anyway.

---

From reading this thread (Dear god, why am I replying to this idiotic thread in the first place) no offense to anyone, not the makers of this thread, the believers, or the non-believers.

Seriously, what everyone is trying to say here, those saying it's NOT Christianity, they aren't doing this

If you think its stupid and idiotic, which is kind of hard not to take offensively, then why are you posting here?

I think its an interesting thread, an interesting point in the game, and a very interesting debate, its something new to talk about in FFVII which is good.

That great Gospel, or whatever everyone is talking about, once again is JUST a name, YES, BUT THERE'S ANGELS INVOLVED, angels aren't automatically religious. People draw them, use them in paintings, hell, people even get 'angel wing' tattoos that aren't religious, and have no meaning but to like them. If you're saying that however, you're not only shoving your religion but your opinion down someone's throat as well.

Gospel when put purposely together with praying and Angels is religious, or is praying for help from angels to a religiously titled Limit Break not religiously related or religious in its self? I have said over and over again no one has to agree with me, hell they don't even have to post to me, but they obviously want to debate it out with me

I'm not forcing anyone to debate with me, or even take me seriously, I am not following them around and trying to debate it everywhere they go, we are all going to a specific thread and debating it.

Along with many threads, the thread name is a question. If you ASK 100 people a question which can be answered with an opinion, I dare guarantee you that there will be at LEAST 10 different opinions. If you don't want people to say it's there for a different reason, while you're convinced they're there because of religion you shouldn't even ask this. If that's what you want, make a thread on WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THIS.

I would have but, I didn't the thread. And I am not using my opinion, or at least trying not to as much as I can. I mean I didn't add the Cross, Church, Angels, Praying, mention of Blasphemy in a Church, talk of Sin, and Angel statues in Edge, the creators did.

I firmly believe that Aerith prays and beckons angels to a limit called Gospel because she is religious.

Don't ask someone something, and then argue their opinions, that's retarded. If you're so convinced, make a thread on WHO'S WITH ME ON THIS, instead of letting people try and tell you otherwise, while it will NOT change your opinion.

Again, I didn't make the thread, so I don't know why you are talking about people being "retards" I am convinced I don;t know if the OP, Cali, feels the same, she probably is looking for answers, I am here to debate what already exists in the game.

As far as this thread goes. It's pointless.

Again, I think its pretty interesting

POINTLESS. Both to you Cali, Tori, and everyone else that is against what you believe (I'm naming you two because I know you two strongly think it is, and a lot of others aren't).

Its a game, paying it at all is pretty damn pointless as well, but we do it for fun, don't we? I am not claiming that this thread is important to FFVII's storyline, never have, I have said over and over again, its simply a cool tid-bit for building Aerith's Character.

If Square wanted it to be about religion and put it in for those reasons, then it's certainly related to religion. But if Square wanted it, because they simply liked the names, the shapes, the idea of a church because of what most people think with churches, then by all means this is NOT religious.

What? How is a Church not religious, I'll admit maybe "Church" doesn't always mean Christianity, perhaps just a house of worship, but a Church is always to some religion.

But That still doesn't explain; Why she prays to a Gospel asking angels for help? Or why there are Angels statues in Edge, or why there is talk of Sin and Blasphemy

For those of you that are still going on about this, I would advise you to contact Square. (good luck) because your opinions are nothing, and completely pointless when they give their answers, which, like the LTD, they will not. No matter how many hints one party gets/makes up.

Its not that important to go out of our ways and contact Square, I don't even know how I would do that anyway. Its juts a fun debate, I mean there's no reason to take it all so seriously.

Ps. And as for me. I couldn't care less if it was about religion or not, threads like these take all the fun out of the game itself for me. ENJOY the game for what it is, don't tear it apart with facts you don't have, because NO ONE KNOWS THE DAMN REASON, BUT SQUARE.

Its a game, anything from it, stemming off it or about it is in good fun isn't it? No one can seriously take it that seriously for you to come in here and tell people who quite frankly aren't even getting angry or anything over to end the discussion. Posting on a forum about a game topic doesn't mean we take it seriously, its just a game anyway right?


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[Amizon]

Interesting thread this is.

Now I'd like to insert my input here and if anyone's reiterated what I'm about to say, don't berate me for it. It's my opinion and I couldn't be bothered to read over twenty pages of hot sweating debate.

I don't think Aerith is Christian. As a Catholic myself, I think it's sort of silly to say she's that or any religion to be honest. In a game like this, religion probably really doesn't exist. She's an individual praying to the planet as the last Ancient. There are the objects of religion in there, but it doesn't put out that she's any part of any religion that we know of. Do remember that the reason Aerith goes to the church is because she likes the flowers, not because she's religious.

Now people may think, 'She prays!'

Correct. But do you actually hear how she prays? She just sits or kneels down to pray. We only know she prays to the planet. There's no god she's praying to. Just the planet. So all these suggestions that she may be religious don't seem good enough to me. A simple girl praying to the planet just only seems right because she's an Ancient.

I guess that's my opinion.

And we're all entitled to our opinions. This isn't to disrespect any religions, but this opinion is merely based from my observations. I've wondered the big question myself while playing the game several times and this is what I think.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I'd like to point out there are religious references besides the whole Aerith thing. There are summons called Odin, Shiva, Hades and so on. These are gods from different mythologies. To have them in the game wouldn't make them gods, but merely references to religion. And I believe that the religious ornaments and anything else in the game are references and nothing more. Because even though the religion may not be present with Aerith or even in the game for that matter, I believe that the game makers would insert a dash of religion along with many other things from reality in there.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

I don't think being a Cetra is a Faith, I think it is a sort of being, I don't remember Cetra having any other religious belief than seeking just the Promised Land.

"i dont think"

i always understood the cetra to be like gypsies. travelling people.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/roma2.htm

having read some stuff on romani gypsies it seems that traditionally they had their own faith. could be something to keep this thread going for another 50 pages.