Aerith and her Faith

[Dionysos]

No, it’s not really opinion, in my case I have posted evidence and facts pictures and actual existing things from the FFVII world, in others cases they are saying "it could be this" and "it could be that", sometimes even saying "I think"s and "Maybe"s.

The only reason that I and many others are using “I thinks” and “maybes” is because we’re not necessarily trying to force what we say as hard fact, because none of us here really can. We’re just making logical decisions based on what we feel is right for this topic, and the debate lies only in trying to work out any issues between the conflicting viewpoints and see if anyone can learn from the topic, on both sides. None of us can really say “it is” in this context.


I could try to be more assertive and say “this is!” and “that is a lie! This is the truth!”, but I honestly do not think like that. We all have a right to think how we want to think, and to argue what we want to argue. I just want to put out what I think without feeling (or making other people feel) as if I am insulting them, backhanding them and not taking anything onboard. I’m merely stating what I think about this issue, and am not pretending that I have SE on speed-dial.

“You have stated that and I heard you, but you didn't back it up, I have backed my statements up, The limit she uses is called the Gospel, in the limit she prays and angels come and save her and friends, she even resides in a Church and there are Crosses present in the FFVII games.

The thing is though you state that only you are providing evidence from the game, but that is only because the only evidence that we could possibly use is from the game (other than official word), and it’s already been laid out here. The argument lies in the interpretation of this evidence, not in the evidence thrown about now (unless anything new crops up). Most of the evidence was out there in this thread several pages back. It is referred to constantly only because we have differing opinions about what it means, or can be taken to mean.


I also have thrown in some evidence of my own, but very little of it has ever been picked up on if it isn’t Christian in nature. I can understand that some of my posts have been a bit of a Teal Deer, so I can forgive one for not reading huge chunks of my posts. Like I said, we’re all playing with the same evidence, we just interpret it differently.

I don't think that the Cross on Vincent’s coffin is a Cross, it is. I don't think that Aerith's flowers bloom in a Church it is a Church, I don't think that they are Angels descending from the sky they are, I don't think that they are angels statues in Edge they matter of fact - are.”

It is a cross, and there are flowers, and it is a building called a church and resembles a church, but that is not what is being contested here. We’re discussing the meaning behind these symbols, not the appearance.

Yes there is a single specific way Christians pray, I don't think I said we pray any way, I think I said Jews pray a specific way and Christians pray a specific way.= the only difference is there isn't a specific place we pray, like there is for others.

Not every religion is restricted to only a holy place either.

But they ARE there, Members and I myself even of this thread have posted pictures of Angels, Aerith Praying the Christian way, Churches, Crosses and even references to "Holy hell" for desecrating a Church flower bed, the use of the word Gospel, Characters in the game countless times saying "Godammit" -- how can a God damn something when there allegedly isn't a God?

Personally I think that was only used because it is our swear word, and the creators of the game needed to show foul-mouthed anger in Cid and Barret in a recognisable fashion. If they wanted to be clever then the writers could have had Yuffie say “Da Chaodammnit!” or “Leviathandamnit!”, and a pissed off Bugenhagen could yell “planetdamnit!”, but it wouldn’t feel right to us as a player. Goddamnit flows and we understand it. People would think it silly if they used another name for the swear word.

Of course it’s not the same Tower of Babil (I think) and of course Kain isn't Cain, I never said they were, but Biblical references and undeniable nonetheless, The Bible/God has played its place in the recent FF's so why assume they are merely and randomly using the Bible for reference just because? Why assume that they aren't throwing these Biblical references in there because religion/Christianity does exist?

Because if Christianity is taken to exist, then all of the other faiths would too. It’s just far too messed up, in my opinion. These are fictional planets. The people are not the people of Earth. Civilisations have evolved in a similar yet strikingly different way. Unless God sent another son to the planet of these games, and had him die on the cross, then how would these characters know about Jesus? Would God have told them about Jesus of Earth, and then they’d then become Christians because they learned great tales about Jesus on a distant planet they had never heard of? If so, why doesn’t anyone recognise or talk about Earth in the game?

No, A Cross doesn't make me think of God and Christianity its proof that its really there, you can't have one without the other, it just wouldn't make sense unless the Square-Enix team somehow believe they invented the Cross. So yes, why did they choose the Bible? They wanted us to think into by your own admission you've said this, they didn't want us to shrug it off. Simply using Biblical names because they didn't want to introduce new names doesn't make sense, they could and have easily invented names and not explain them like; SEED, or invented them and have explained them; like Ancients.

But the same is to be said of any name picked for any fictional character. Allusions, yes. Making us think in a certain way, yes. Evidence of existence of the cultures from which the names come from? In my opinion, no.

There are many religious references and existences in these games, A Cross is a Cross and nothing else, it holds no other meaning but God, it literally means "To God, Through God" nothing else.

I think that was possibly the last thing on the minds of the majority of criminals executed through crucifixion.

I don't know where or how you gather that Aerith represents all religions, she lives in a Church and prays like a Christian with a limit named Great Gospel, Not the Great Torah or Great Qur'an nor the Great Tripitaka or even simply the Great Religion they chose "Gospel" for a reason.

Simply to be shrugged off? I guess is your decision, I am an analytical person and since one of the Guys who made the game [Nomura] said we'd have to watch Advent Children many times before knowing the true meaning of the movie I think I will keep being analytical.

I’ve never shrugged it off. Sorry if it appears that way. I just don’t think that a name and reference is enough to prove that the faith and belief behind the religion is really there.

Who's to say it isn't our planet? They are humans are they not? I recall one of Aeriths limits being called Breath of Earth. How can God and Jesus not exist when Crosses, angels and Churches do and Buddha does? One of Sephiroth's finishing blows even show our solar system, planets and our universe.

Later depictions of this attack (Dissidia) don’t show the solar system. It was a battle animation. In my opinion, and in the opinion of a few others, it was just a flashy attack meant to show how powerful Sephiroth is. The attack itself makes no sense, as everybody would surely perish in an instant if he actually did that.


Whether FFVII is set on our Earth or not is up for debate and personal opinion. I would say that it is not, as it looks nothing like out planet has ever looked or is likely to ever look. The cultures too, while being familiar and resembling some of our own cultures, are not carbon-copies, and are not consistent with the history of our planet.

Many people believe in many faiths on our Planet, that doesn't make all other religions less existent to these people, why would any need to cancel the other out? Many Religions can be practiced and exist to people, it is a fictional world they are mixing many things together; it's their world all of them could be existent.

I didn’t mean to suggest this, and I apologise if it appeared that way. There is no need for religions to cancel each other out, I was just stating that if Aerith was to be found to be connected to more religions than just Christianity, then that would conflict with her status as a Christian.

What is the basis for connecting her to Shinto’s exactly?

It blends in with the respect for the planet and all life, and the flow of life, and of purification. Some people (I read about it briefly in Final Fantasy and Philosophy, but I don’t have it to hand to quote) interpret the scenes regarding water cleansing, among the general themes of FFVII as a whole, as being like Shinto rituals, and of shunning, reacting against or changing upon contact with alien influences.

I've said you don’t have to many times, and you don't but you can't say a Cross, a Church, Angels, Gospel, and Praying mean anything other than Religion or Christianity, they aren't just empty things they are full with meaning.

Undeniably true, on our planet, and to the right people on our planet. There is nothing to say that they have the same meaning to the characters of FFVII who live in a world which is likely not our own. It’s similar to landing on a tropical island and meeting a tribe of cannibals who have never even heard of Christianity. If you put two sticks together in the shape of a cross, they will not recognise the meaning behind this cross; they will use the sticks to spit-roast and eat you.

I never said you had to have belief in the Car for it to work, the point I was trying to make and I think you thought I was saying religion and cars are the same or similar -- and they aren’t' -- the point I was saying if a pig looks like a pig, is called a pig, sound like a pig and smells like a pig -- its pig.

You could tiptoe and say anything but that doesn't make the pig any less a pig.

This is the same as the car though. You don’t need to believe in a pig for it to be a pig. You can dress it up as your best friend Larry, take it with you on social occasions and pretend that it can talk, but it will still only say “oink” and eat like a pig.

If you don’t believe in God, he doesn’t exist for you. If no-one believes in God, regardless of whether he really is up there or not, he does not exist in the minds of the people on the planet, and they may never know of his existence.

I never said it was important to the inhabitants of the FFVII world, but it certainly is to a few of them including Aerith. And most importantly it’s there to build character not storyline; it molded Aeriths pure character even more than it already was.

Christianity included among the religious aspects moulded her character, but I wouldn’t say that is still enough to claim that we know what the religions are.

There wasn't, and to assume that it’s not a car it’s just similar because imagination runs dry nowadays seems rather shallow.

I don’t see how. Most fiction set in a fantasy world uses horses, familiar mythical beats, or vehicles and objects from our planet. We’re a great species, but we can only drink from our own pool. We haven’t had any alien influences in our history yet, and therefore we are not inspired by anything other than what we can see here.

Are the Cars in FFVII called giant beetles? Then I think that answers itself.

I didn’t imply that they were. I was just saying that if a person was to call it a beetle, it would still be a car. The existence of a car does not rely on belief, and therefore it is different from religion.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

magic, monsters, aliens, talking catdogs, (elemental?) guardians of the planet.

theyre not real, kids.

 

[The Witch]

magic, monsters, aliens, talking catdogs, (elemental?) guardians of the planet.

theyre not real, kids.

Darn, and here I thought they were real

 

[Marquis of Granby]

who cares tbh. its a game, this isnt worthy of a debate at all.

 

[The Witch]

Some people think it is. My god, this is an FF game. We're discussing FF on an FF forum. It's all fine and dandy if others see this as a stupid debate or topic, but let's leave the people who are discussing this alone.

After all, without topics like this, forums for FF would die. They can't all be "Who's better" or "Who's hotter" or "Help me..." threads, can they jim?

And now that I'm here, it doesn't hurt anyone for this to be discussed. Nobodies making fun of anyone, we're all discussing. If it really bothers others, then don't lurk in here and read the posts.

I have to deal with threads I don't like, so must everyone else. This is a community after all. xD

 

[Ilyena]

Alright, enough derailing the thread. Stick to the topic please.

 

[CassinoChips]

I grew up Catholic. We don't read the Bible.

(Kidding. Sort of.) Yes, I have read it. Your quote says nothing except what I've been saying the whole time. Christians will see the cross as meaningful because they ascribe that meaning to it. Others who see no meaning it will not see the same meaning in it.

Besides the crosses, what about the rest of her post, Terry? This isn't just about the cross on Vincent's coffin, it's about many many different religious "symbols" in VII's world.

We can't just use crosses as a sole reason to prove Christianity, just as no one else can use many religions using cross-like items to prove Christianity doesn't exist in the game.

Your argument is that all of these symbols point to Aeris being Christian. If one of these symbols is shown to not necessarily equate to Christianity, then that throws all of the others into question. Not that it matters, since your confirmation bias has already blinded you.

If there's a Buddha in VII's world, there can just as likely be a Jesus. And since we all saw that Buddhist statue in Wutai, then it's logical for some to see things like crosses, churches, roman-catholic angels, prayers to those angels, the words gospel, heaven, and god, and come to the conclusion that yes, religions exist in this mystical world. To be specific, there's many religions mentioned in VII's world, to name the one's I know of, it's Christianity, Buddhism, Islam.

Why?

Buddhism is proven with the Buddhist statue, Islam is proven with Ifrit, and Christianity is proven with the church, roman-catholic angels, Gospel, Heaven, and most of all the Cross.

No one's arguing that these symbols don't exist in the game. We're saying that they don't necessarily mean that Character X is affiliated with Religion Y. Is Yuffie Buddhist because there is Buddhist iconography in Wutai? Is any character that summons Ifrit Muslim? Or for that matter, a Hindu for summoning Shiva? No, it's just a plot device and/or game mechanic. The meaning assigned to it is yours, and yours alone, unless the game designers come out and give specific confirmation that any character is any particular religion.

The Ankh represents life, there is no Ankh present on Vincents Cross, the Coptic Cross looks slightly different than the Ankh and looks nothing like what on Vincents Coffin, a Cross in of Vincents Coffin, a Latin/Greek Cross, a Crucifix if you will. Was Vincent buried like Egyptian Mummies were?

It's an example. And a crucifix is defined as an image of Christ on the cross. So the image on Vincent's coffin is no more than a Gothic-influenced geometrical design.

Why are you singling it out? Its an equation you need all the pieces, Its not just a Cross, its also a Church, Angels, Praying, The Gospel, Mention of Sin, Buddha, Ifrit other Religious existence's.

Answered above.

Terry, proving that other societies used the cross too doesn't take away from the fact that Christian's also use it.

No, what it proves is that, as I said above, two people can look at/use the same imagery and have it mean two different things. Therefore, one cannot automatically assume that Image X has Meaning Y.

 

[Saints&Storms]

I'm not trying to force anything either, but I am not going to ignore facts and actual existence in the game either, and I just can't exept that they we mere coincidences as well. Afterall thats what debates are for finding answers not coming up with opinions and personal objections. You can't see efvidence as anything other than evidence and the evidence is; A Cross is a Cross, a Church is a Church, and Angels are angels, the Gospel is the Gospel, and Praying is Praying, and Buddha is Buddha.

If you find something that is what it is and is the truth then it IS, and I strongly urge you to tell me so. I am not trying to act as if I have SE on speed dial either, but you don't have to be to see that there are Religions in this game.

The evidence isn't interpretable, its for sure -- a Cross/Church/Angels/Praying are what they are and there is no other, answer for this. You can't interpret a Cross or Buddha any other way than it already is and has been for ages. They would have to redefine it for us.

You yourself said; they put these things in there for us to look into, they use these things in there for a reason, they think out the story-lines and the characters and the designs. That is especially how Japanese people make stories there are symbols and meanings to everything

If you have something from he game that tells us that religion doesn't exist, again I urge you to post it and inform me, I would rather be informed and told what what is and isn't. But so far other than opinion nothing has proven the Cross/Church/Angels/Gospel/Buddha and Ifrit/Bahamut wrong.

The Meaning behind a "Church" is God/Christianity/Catholicism, nothing else, the Church is a symbol of worship for God and faith.

Of course they aren't restricted to a holy place, but there is a holy place for every religion, there are symbols like crossed for other religions; Am I supposed to believe they chose a Church and other Christian themes for any reason at all?

It is our curse word, but people say it only because God exists, there is no other meaning for Godammit other than for God to Damn something or another. Maybe they did throw it in their to familiarize us but the word has a meaning for a reason, simply putting it into a fictional word doesn;t change that.

But they don't worship Da Chao I recall the game saying it is Yuffie's and the town of Wutai's Shinobi ancestors not Gods, but Chinese people do believe their ancestors watch over them ;/

Who's to say they don't all exist? It is a fictional world anything can happen, they can take from all of these things and mix them together, but that still calls for the to exist and to be, it possible for them to all exist in FFVII's game. Sephiroth's attack shows our Solar Systems planets, Venus, Pluto etc. all of them literally being destroyed doesn't make sense but it is a Fantasy anything is possible.

Because its not a focus in the game, they call it the planet because that's what it is, one of Aeriths limits actually does talk about "Earth"

They do things for reasons, Aerith is basically a made up name, Cloud isn't really a name but a thing used as a name, they all have meanings behind them before they were used for the game, the Name Vincent is still an Italian name, nothing changes just because its used in the Video Game. These things existed before FFVII, the game creators didn't intend to change their meanings or else they would have invented their own names. titles and religions.

The Cross had a meaning aside from Crucifixions, they weren't always used just for that. I posted a Bible verse on what it means.

Its not just a Name & Reference, they are solid items and objects in the FFVII world and story.

I highly doubt Dissidia is Canon to FFVII's story line, seeing as Cloud wouldn't have had time through FFVII to go off on a side journey, the point is in the Canon original it shows us OUR solar system.

You can say its juts an attack, but its showing the actual existence of these planets in the Story and world of FFVII, thats why they didn;t show Earth, because that's what they are on. Anything could have happened it is a Fantasy world who knows maybe catastrophes changed all the continents. They aren't Carbon copies, but they don;t have to be for religion to exist.

But she isn't connected to any other religions, and if there is proof other wise I'd be glad to see it. She goes to her Church, Prays for Angelic aid, and has a Limit called Great Gospel. I haven't seen anything that conflicts her status as a Christian.

Christianity also believes in Purification by Water, flow of life and among other things as well. I haven't seen Aerith practice anything close to Shintoism -- aside from it influencing the Storyline.

The creators of the game knew full well the meanings of these things, since they are from a world full of these things, they put them in there on purpose since the game is by their hand made. Aerith calls the Church a "Sacred Place", the Charactes say Godammit its seems as thought a God would have to exist.

Right, again I think you are taking these tow comparisons to literally I am not saying religion and a pig have any similarities at all, but if a thing looks like what is; it IS that thing.

I get that you are saying you don't have to believe in something for it to exist, but it does exist in the game a Church/Gospel/Sin/Crosses/Angels and Praying proves so, and Aerith is seen practicing it -- hence its existence.

You can't practice something that doesn't exist -- Right?

Again where is the other religious influence noticeable in her Character? She doesn't Pray in a Synagogue, Mosque, or Temple, Her limit isn't called anything other than Gospel.
----

TTT

It's an example. And a crucifix is defined as an image of Christ on the cross. So the image on Vincent's coffin is no more than a Gothic-influenced geometrical design.

That's a straw-man argument. A Cross on a Coffin, on an Item of physical or spiritual parting from life means the existence of religion.

2 + 2 = 4 after all.

You don;t draw random geometrical designs on Coffins for no reason, and A Cross isn't just a random Gothic design, its Gothic because of the medieval time when the Crusades were taking place, that's the only reason it has become synonymous with medieval times or Goithic themes.

What you said above doesn't answer this; You can't single the Cross out from the Church, the mention of Gospel, Angels, Praying, Buddha, Ifrit/Bahamut,

 

[CassinoChips]

TTT

That's a straw-man argument. A Cross on a Coffin, on an Item of physical or spiritual parting from life means the existence of religion.

It's... not a strawman at all. It's the heart of the discussion. You see an image in one light, I see it in another. Without corroboration by the creators, neither one of us is correct because we can only infer.

And for the millionth time, yes, religion and religious imagery exist in the game. But that does not equate to Character X being a practicioner of Religion Y.

2 + 2 = 4 after all.

Except in this case, you have 2, and what you assume to be another 2, which you assume to equal 4.

You don;t draw random geometrical designs on Coffins for no reason, and A Cross isn't just a random Gothic design, its Gothic because of the medieval time when the Crusades were taking place, that's the only reason it has become synonymous with medieval times or Goithic themes.

I can draw random lines on anything. I could even make a cross out of those lines and have it mean nothing. Maybe the cross on Vincent's coffin represents the pre-Christian symbolic meaning of "life" because Vincent isn't actually dead. Makes more sense than him being Christian when A) Christianity is practiced nowhere else in the game, and B) there are no mentions of Jesus Christ in the game.

What you said above doesn't answer this; You can't single the Cross out from the Church, the mention of Gospel, Angels, Praying, Buddha, Ifrit/Bahamut,

Yes it does. It's all been answered over and over again. You just can't or won't accept the answers.

You can separate a cross from The Crucifix. Therefore you can separate a cross from The Church.

To turn it around, you've yet to answer how Christianity can exist without
Jesus Christ.

 

[Saints&Storms]

TTT, its like you haven't been reading any of the posts here, its not just the Cross, which is indeed a Cross, you don't put random geometrical designs on a Coffin, the Item of Physical and Spiritual sending from life.

Its not just a cross, its also a Church, The word Gospel, Angels coming down and aiding Aerith after she prays, and Ifrit & Bahamut, Buddha, and the existence of Egyptian calligraphy, all of these things existing means Religion and Christianity does in fact exist, you could tip-toe around it, not accept it or just ignore it but that defeats the purpose of debating in this thread.

You do realize that we have stated Aerith prays and Roman Angels come and aid her right? Its not just a cross, Aerith is seen practicing Christianity not Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam, or Judaism.

Am I assuming Aerith prayed and Angels came down? No its a fact, they are in the game, same as the Cross, Church, the Word Gospel, talk of Sin, the word "Godammit", the Turks speaking of "Holy Hell" for Blasphemy in a Church , a Statue of Buddha, and Islamic djinn.

You again, Terry are watering it down to one thing when it is more than juts one thing.

2 = Church & Angels
2 = Praying & The Gospel
4 = Religion Existing

You could draw random lines on anything, but in a Video Game where every landscape has to be created carefully and exactly, its highly improbable the SE team just scribbled a design on a coffin.
Christianity is seen being practiced, Aerith Prays in her limit which is called the Great Gospel, Angels come down and save her, she goes to a Church she herself calls a "sacred place" and the Turks say Reno will catch "Holy Hell" for desecrating the flowers in the Church.

I never said the cross being on Vincents Coffin meant he was Christian, I simply said it proved the existence of Religion in Final Fantasy VII among other things doing it.

If the Cross was symbolic for life, they would have used an Egyptian Ankh instead. I think Vincent is actually undead, still making him dead, he doesn't age; he's dead.

There are no mentions because there isn't focus on Religion in the game, thats not what its about,they'd have to focus a deep deal on religion to mention Jesus, Buddha is in the Game, but no one speaks of him, but he is indeed there.

No, Terry, you haven't explained why these Religious items are there, the Church, the mention of Gospel, Angels, Praying, Buddha, Ifrit/Bahamut, No one has explained these thingsNo, you can't they are all there so they all go together.

That's like saying you can separate the Humans from needing to breath air, and since nobody speaks of air it doesn't exist.

Terry show me where anyone has Explained all of things religious things?

Yes I have answered it, you just aren't reading my posts, that's evident from you singling out the Cross from a Church, Angels, Praying, The Gospel, the Word "God", "Holy Hell", Buddha and even Islamic creatures existing.

They don't speak of Jesus because he isn't the main focus of the Game, neither is religion, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. No one speaks of Buddha, but there is a statue of him in Wutai.

 

[CassinoChips]

Everything you've just posted has had a counter-point brought up against it. You've yet to come up with a counter-argument to any of those points, you simply repeat the original argument over and over again. And then you question whether I've read any of the posts. Which is hilarious. Belaboring the same points when they've been shown to have flawed premises is not logically sound.

There's no point in beating a dead horse, so I'm (once again) stepping out of the discussion until new information is brought in.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Everything you've just posted has had a counter-point brought up against it. You've yet to come up with a counter-argument to any of those points, you simply repeat the original argument over and over again. And then you question whether I've read any of the posts. Which is hilarious. Belaboring the same points when they've been shown to have flawed premises is not logically sound.

There's no point in beating a dead horse, so I'm (once again) stepping out of the discussion until new information is brought in.

If it has been answered show me where, no one has explained why Buddha is int he Game, nor Ifrit, Bahamut, Crosses, Churches, Angels, Why Aerith Prays and Angels aid her, why they speak about God and Blasphemy etc.

You can say its been answered all you want, but until you show me where, then it really hasn't.

I've only seen Maybe's and Straw-man Arguments along with opinion's and I think's.

You keep saying "That's been answered" but it hasn't, I'm only repeating what I am saying because you won;'t answer it, and the only thing you did had no basis for it, the only reason a cross has ever been know to be put on a Coffin is for Religious purposes, it not a geometrical design it has a meaning, like I said last post, there is a thought and process to designing landscape in a Game nothing happens on accident or by coincidence.

If they are flawed tell me how? Show me where and answer this.
You leave a debate when you can't answer these questions or refuse to really? Nice.

The only thing I've seen explained about Buddha is that its Da Chao, but he isn't, Da Chao is a Shinobi Ancestor of Wutai, and on the shelf we clearly see a Buddha Statue.

You aren't beating a dead horse, you haven't even beaten the living one ;/ What was the point of posting in this thread to answer with "That's been answered" and then not show me where or how its been answered or to not even answer it yourself?

I guess see ya.

 

[Dionysos]

Afterall thats what debates are for finding answers not coming up with opinions and personal objections. You can't see efvidence as anything other than evidence and the evidence is; A Cross is a Cross, a Church is a Church, and Angels are angels, the Gospel is the Gospel, and Praying is Praying, and Buddha is Buddha.

I disagree. Debates can be about discussing the evidence. Both sides of a debate are using the same evidence, and arguing our case based on what we feel is right.

A cross is a cross: yes. A church is a church: ish yes (already mentioned in the thread is that the church in the original game is rather tacky looking and has a menorah on its roof). Angels are angels: they’re not called as such, but they share the appearance and fill a similar role. The Gospel is the Gospel: other than the name for Aerith’s limit break there is no known gospel in FFVII, and it has been explained by many that this is likely just to show her as religious in general. Praying is praying: yes, it is likely cultic or ritualistic. Buddha is Buddha: as far as I know he is Da Chao, not Buddha.

If you find something that is what it is and is the truth then it IS, and I strongly urge you to tell me so. I am not trying to act as if I have SE on speed dial either, but you don't have to be to see that there are Religions in this game.

We are seeing the references and the symbols and the imagery, and we appreciate the possible reasons for the creators adding this into the game. We simply just don’t believe that any of this means that the deities connected to the religions on our planet, or the same faith of the religions themselves are actually present on the planet of FFVII.


The evidence provided is all visual and physical, or based on battle animations. Within the text of the game none of these things are referenced as being important or real.

The evidence isn't interpretable, its for sure -- a Cross/Church/Angels/Praying are what they are and there is no other, answer for this. You can't interpret a Cross or Buddha any other way than it already is and has been for ages. They would have to redefine it for us.

There is another answer, since Buddha never existed on the FFVII planet, and Romans didn’t crucify people either, so even if Jesus found himself escaping Earth and fleeing to the FFVII world, he would be safe on the FFVII world unless he was killed in a different way, for which he would likely need a different symbol depending on the way he died.

You yourself said; they put these things in there for us to look into, they use these things in there for a reason, they think out the story-lines and the characters and the designs. That is especially how Japanese people make stories there are symbols and meanings to everything

They may mean something, you and I could both be right here. It can still mean something and be important without having to actually be our planet’s religions in all ways.

If you have something from he game that tells us that religion doesn't exist, again I urge you to post it and inform me, I would rather be informed and told what what is and isn't. But so far other than opinion nothing has proven the Cross/Church/Angels/Gospel/Buddha and Ifrit/Bahamut wrong.

We’re not trying to argue that religion doesn’t exist.

As for proving the cross, church, angels, gospel, Buddha, Ifrit and Bahamut wrong, we have discussed most of them at considerable length. Many people have tried to explain what these symbols could be in the game for, but other than explanations there isn’t much more than can be given. On the other hand, there isn’t a way to say that they are right either. How can it really be said that a cross has the same meaning on this planet, when we simply do not know?


With regards to summons. Shiva the summon is vastly different from Shiva the god. Despite blue skin being recognisably Hindu, Shiva the god is most often depicted as male, and has no connection to ice and frost. Other summons do closer resemble their mythical namesakes, but it urges us to be careful when deciding to see these things as the actual thing. Bahamut is his own beast in the FF series, but he shares the name with an arabic monster who has no resemblance to the dragon king.

Of course they aren't restricted to a holy place, but there is a holy place for every religion, there are symbols like crossed for other religions; Am I supposed to believe they chose a Church and other Christian themes for any reason at all?

There will be a reason, yes. Just like there is a reason for them basing the design of the Cetra temples on Egyptian and Aztec temples, and just like there is a reason for basing the Wutai religion on Buddha. It’s recognisable, and it can cause us to reflect and wonder about our own planet, or to believe and feel fully involved in the FFVII planet more.

It is our curse word, but people say it only because God exists, there is no other meaning for Godammit other than for God to Damn something or another. Maybe they did throw it in their to familiarize us but the word has a meaning for a reason, simply putting it into a fictional word doesn;t change that.

People use goddamnit flippantly. They don’t always think about the meaning, or separate the words god and damn. Like all swear words, the meaning isn’t as important as the release of anger. They’re often vulgar and nasty words, but the reason people do it is to release rage (or to show off), and not to ask God to damn something. It is likely the same for FFVII. I’d like to know if goddamnit is even in the Japanese language version of the game. If it is, it is likely because Cid is a character based on the aggressively loud-mouthed American archetype, just like Barret is based on the aggressively loud-mouthed African-American archetype.

But they don't worship Da Chao I recall the game saying it is Yuffie's and the town of Wutai's Shinobi ancestors not Gods, but Chinese people do believe their ancestors watch over them ;/

I’m not sure. Perhaps. All I know is that the mountain statues are named after / in honour of / are depicting Da Chao, so likely not Buddha.

Who's to say they don't all exist? It is a fictional world anything can happen, they can take from all of these things and mix them together, but that still calls for the to exist and to be, it possible for them to all exist in FFVII's game. Sephiroth's attack shows our Solar Systems planets, Venus, Pluto etc. all of them literally being destroyed doesn't make sense but it is a Fantasy anything is possible.

While it is true that anything is possible, it usually follows some logic and reason at least. Not only can the same animation happen more than once in the battle, but it surely depicts the destruction of the planet at the same time as it hits the characters. Yet when the party leave the Northern Crater at the end of the game they find that they aren’t floating in space and the planet is still there.

Because its not a focus in the game, they call it the planet because that's what it is, one of Aeriths limits actually does talk about "Earth"

And if it didn’t talk about Earth then no-one would understand what it was going on about. The FFVII planet is unnamed, though I have heard it being called Gaia or Earth, which are both the same. It doesn’t mean that it is our Earth. Many of the earlier FFs just kept the name Earth or Gaia instead of naming the planet. It wasn’t really until FFX that we started to get named planets for each game.

They do things for reasons, Aerith is basically a made up name, Cloud isn't really a name but a thing used as a name, they all have meanings behind them before they were used for the game, the Name Vincent is still an Italian name, nothing changes just because its used in the Video Game. These things existed before FFVII, the game creators didn't intend to change their meanings or else they would have invented their own names. titles and religions.

There needs to be an element within the game which the target audience can relate with, yes. Sometimes the best character names are those which we can understand, or those that do have a sort of meaning which can be looked into if it isn't immediately apparent. Gobafagoob wouldn’t be as popular a name as Cloud, Lalaumptikaa probably wouldn’t stick well for Aerith, and Vargvarglikatikus would be a horrible name for Vincent, even if these names would make sense within the fictional language of a made up culture. There is little reason for them to make up an entire language for the cultures on FFVIIs planet, and any effort they put into it would be wasted when the majority of the audience would lose interest in the game, get confused, and put it away for trying too hard to be clever. The names used are to cue us to think in a certain way about the characters, just like I believe the religious references are, but it does not necessarily mean that Vincent is Italian, and that the religions of Earth are on the FFVII planet.

You can say its juts an attack, but its showing the actual existence of these planets in the Story and world of FFVII, thats why they didn;t show Earth, because that's what they are on. Anything could have happened it is a Fantasy world who knows maybe catastrophes changed all the continents. They aren't Carbon copies, but they don;t have to be for religion to exist.

That doesn’t make sense though. If it is our planet then it isn’t a fantasy world. If it is a fantasy alternate version of our planet, such as like seen in any fiction set on our planet, then ok, but FFVII’s planet not looking anything like our planet throws suspicion on this. If a major catastrophe messed up our planet that much, then how did everything get to how it is? The history does not make sense at all. Did the Egyptians and Aztecs meet thousands of years ago? They didn’t even occupy the same time period. Did they meet and make a pyramid-style temple in the middle of a jungle which has yet to be discovered, but will be one day when the world goes mad? It's not impossible in fiction, I guess, but if the entire face of the planet was restructured then how did any of this stuff survive? And why did this major event not enter the history books, since it would have been something which must have happened quite recently in the game for all of these faiths to be active in the way that they are?

But she isn't connected to any other religions, and if there is proof other wise I'd be glad to see it. She goes to her Church, Prays for Angelic aid, and has a Limit called Great Gospel. I haven't seen anything that conflicts her status as a Christian.

It’s all been mentioned in the thread previously. There may be more connecting her to Christianity in a visual sense, with the church etc, but she is not limited to just Christianity.

Right, again I think you are taking these tow comparisons to literally I am not saying religion and a pig have any similarities at all, but if a thing looks like what is; it IS that thing.

I get that you are saying you don't have to believe in something for it to exist, but it does exist in the game a Church/Gospel/Sin/Crosses/Angels and Praying proves so, and Aerith is seen practicing it -- hence its existence.



You can't practice something that doesn't exist -- Right?

That’s what I was saying, if it is the thing then it is the thing. A car is a car, no matter what you call it or believe it to be. A pig is a pig, no matter what you call it or believe it to be. The religion in the church is not Christianity until anyone is seen to acknowledge it as being there, or believe it to exist, as the spirit or meaning of a religion rests in the mind and the heart, and in belief of these things, not in the physical world. If everybody stopped believing in God, then unless he showed himself somehow or rekindled faith then he would be forgotten, and he would no longer exist in the minds of the people of the planet.



It isn’t made clear what Aerith is practicing though. The praying to the angels is a part of a battle animation, and not the storyline. Even if it is to be taken as real, angels could just show the move as being holy and healing. The church is in a mess, and Aerith goes there to tend to flowers. It is a holy environment, yes, but Aerith as far as I can recall does not suggest that she goes there to pray to a supreme being of any sort.





As for Vincent’s cross… Bear in mind that Vincent is in a spooky basement, under a spooky haunted mansion. He is not buried in a church graveyard, or in the basement of a church. Everything about the design of that building and the coffin is to create an eerie gothic atmosphere, and one that resembles horror fiction.

Its not just a cross, Aerith is seen practicing Christianity not Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam, or Judaism.

She’s not really seen practicing anything for sure.

Buddha is in the Game, but no one speaks of him, but he is indeed there.

That statue, like the mountains, would likely have a different name if it was ever given an explanation in the game. If Buddha isn’t mentioned, then we can’t assume that he is present.

They don't speak of Jesus because he isn't the main focus of the Game, neither is religion, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. No one speaks of Buddha, but there is a statue of him in Wutai.

Interestingly enough, I do think that religion is quite a crucial aspect of the game. The Lifestream and the will of a planet is a form of religion in itself, and since Aerith is perhaps the most crucial character in this game then her connections to holiness and faith make it very important. There are also the names Jenova and Sephiroth. Second to the main themes of the importance of respecting the planet, I do find that the theme of having faith and belief is quite strong in FFVII. There just isn’t any reason for us to assume that the religions would be the same as the ones on Earth just because the symbols and iconography are similar in a few places.

 

[Saints&Storms]

But the mention of Praying, Blasphemy in Church, People saying Godammit, Roman Angels aiding Aerith after she prays, Roman Angels in Edge, talking about sin, and so on.

No, Buddha isn't Da Choa.

(The sketch here is from an FFVII book, I could get the whole thing if you want to see it.)

Da Chao looks nothing like Buddha. Since Buddha is the "Awakened One" Not "The Great One or Ones"/Da Chao

And its a Menorah in the Church and that's just another thing proving Religion exists, but Aerith is seen praying like a Christian, not like A Jew. The word Gospel is definitely associated with the Bible seeing as Aerith gets down and Prays then Roman angels come down to aid her, its safe to say that this Gospel is the Bible Gospel, you are watering it down to juts each thing separately but the existence of all things things in FFVII links them together. They need to be called angels now? They look like Roman angels to a T what else needs to be said? Its just playing semantics now.

The Praying that Aerith just isn't just a normal prayer, she prays to a Diety or to Something, Roman Angels then descend from the sky and Aid her, to her Limit called the Gospel and she spends a deal of her time in a Church, you can say it doens't look like a Church but its Called a Church.

Religion isn't the focus of the game, of course they wouldn't go out of their way and say "Jesus this & Jesus that", they do say "Godammit" and speak of Blasphemy in a Church. You don't have t believe it but it is there, regardless.

So physically being there and having Characters say "Godammit" isn't enough? But you yourself said it needs to be in the text and it is.

The FFVII world/universe has our Solar System and Planets, who's to say the Planet in FFVII isn't ours? I never said Jesus escaped to another world; that would go against the Bible and there isn't a Basis for it. Buddha must have existed since his statue is there, you can't say he didn't since its never mentioned in the text or even in the landscape, your standards go both ways.

Like I said Sephiroths attack at the end of the game shows our solar systems planets, we can naturally assume it our planet, with the creators own twists added to it.

These things are the named and titled the same things as they are on our planet, these things are added in there by people who DO know their meanings and histories, and again its shown our solar system in the game, our planets.

Fish and Dragons have historically been mistaken for one another, through history, people used to think the Loch Ness monster may be a dragon.

Probably because it is our planet, seeing as its shown our Solar System and Planets. If they wanted to invent their own stuff they would have started from scratch and not have called a Church a "Church". There already is a reason for doing these things and there already is an answer.

It doesn't matter why the staff officially translated it into "Godammit", Godammit would exist if there were no God to have damned something, it isn't a set of random words they are words with meanings to them, tjhey aren't nonsensical. Using it in anger comes after the existence of a God, no the other way around.

The Statues in the mountains are called the Great Ones I have come to understand. And there is a center placed chubby one but he looks nothing like Buddha as I posted above.

Who says earth gets destroyed? The point is its mentioned in the game, you say of something is mentioned in text then it does exist, these planets are our planets right? Then they exist. It is a Fantasy and the planet couls live through anything.

It must be our Earth, our other Planets are there as well. It only makes sense.

Cloud isn't a name its an thing, its only popular because FFVII, Names aren't what makes me believe religion exists in the game Aerith Practicing it makes me believe that, the existence of Churches, Crosses, Angels, God and Sin makes me believe it. Fandoms create languages, planets and Religions all of the time and become popular take Lord of The Rings for example.

Using magical orbs doesn't make sense but they do it, Final Fantasy VI's world gets burned to a crisp and suffers many catastrophe's but is put back together in a year or two, its a Fantasy-game anything could happen, they are putting there own twists with reality bits to it, like there is Air there and Planets, they share our months doesn't make it 100% reality, just reality with twists.

Just because it isn't shown speaking of it happening doesn't mean it didn't occur.

I have been reading the thread, and the only proof posted to link her to another religion was Shintoism, and it was water purifying and Christianity does this as well. Aerith prays to a Gospel Limit and Roman angels aid her, she is only seen practicing Christianity.

You just said it your self, A pig is a pig no matter what people believe it to be, just because someone refuses to acknowledge that it is a Pig doesn't make it any less a pig.

As well as a woman who prays, lives in a Church and is aided by Angels while using a limit called Gospel must be Christian, just because someone refuses to acknowledge it doesn't make it any less true. If something obviously exists, if you can see it, if someone is seen using it -- it exists.

But the flowers only grow there because its a Sacred Place, and Christians pray anywhere they please, we pray to God for aid, and that is what Aerith is seen doing to a Limit Break called The Great Gospel. You have to put the piecese together they are there.

I know where Vincent is I have obviously played the game, but its a Coffin an Item of physical and spiritual parting from life, a Cross present on the coffin proves that there are those who believe there is a spiritual parting after death, and that example is to be Christianity, thats the only reason for a Cross on a coffin, not to look spooky or represent vampires, its only Gothic because of the Midieval Crusades/Holy Wars, no other reason.

Again yeas she is seen praying in he Limit the Great Gospel, it is her Canon chosen limit break by he creators, its not a different part of the game that has nothing to do with FFVII;it is canon.

The Statue is there, and it looks nothing like Da Chao (look above), its undoubtedly Buddah. They say Godammit not "Da chao dammit". If there is a Statue of Buddha there we can assume he is present.

But we can assume and/or know they are since there are Crosses, Churches, talk of blasphemy, Gospel, Praying as Christians do, Angels Statues in Edge, and Buddha who looks like Buddha not Da Chao. Faith and Belief doesn't quite equal Religion, yet you somehow get that equation but Crosses/Churches/Roman Angels/Praying/Blasphemy/ the word God even don't equate to Religion/Christianity, your assumption is far more far-fetched than mine.

 

[coffeecup]

Quick question.

So let us assume that Aeris is Christian.

How do you reconcile her knowledge of being a Cetra (which she was aware of when she escaped to the slums) and a Christian at the same time? Believing in both would lead to contradictory results, right? The game produces a pretty extensive account of who the Cetra are and what they believe. It wouldn't seem like you could be a Cetra and Christian at the same time.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Quick question.

So let us assume that Aeris is Christian.

How do you reconcile her knowledge of being a Cetra (which she was aware of when she escaped to the slums) and a Christian at the same time? Believing in both would lead to contradictory results, right? The game produces a pretty extensive account of who the Cetra are and what they believe. It wouldn't seem like you could be a Cetra and Christian at the same time.

Its a Fantasy; Whats not to say that SE mixed all these faiths together, it is a Fantasy World, but nothing can deny that they are there, they may be altered but they are there.

I don't think anything can be contradictory in a Fantasy, people fly and there are undead guys like Vincent or Hojo, anything goes basically.

 

[coffeecup]

Its a Fantasy; Whats not to say that SE mixed all these faiths together, it is a Fantasy World, but nothing can deny that they are there, they may be altered but they are there.

I don't think anything can be contradictory in a Fantasy, people fly and there are undead guys like Vincent or Hojo, anything goes basically.

:/ Not really. They live in fantasy world, but the basic rules of logic applies. You can't believe in two things that contradict each other. The basic laws of physics and human biology doesn't apply, that's why there's "magic" and flying people and undead beings. Nowhere in the game is it established that the human limitations that we face in the real world are present in the game. So it's okay if people fly and people as badass as Vincent live.

But as for Cetra, the belief is pretty extensively given during the game. And I'm assuming you're taking Christianity from our real world. If the Cetra belief is adhered to by Aeris, Christianity also being adhered would lead to a little logial bump. It's not something that you can reconcile away by saying it's a "fantasy game so anything goes."

Because if that's the case, why are we arguing about this in the first place. If anything goes, then there is no right answer.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Flying isn't logic, using magical orbs isn't logic, Bringing people to life from the dead isn't logic -- Its already been proven in FFVII you have you own Promise Land, your Promised Land is you supreme happiness.

Nowhere in the game is it established that Religion doesn't exist.
Yeah you can just say its a Fantasy, because its Called Final Fantasy, you can't say logic applies to an obviously illogical game that has monster sprouting from orbs and people splitting their souls to physically manifest on earth even though they were dead.

Because some are saying religious symbols are just symbols of religious symbols. and its not quite right.

 

[coffeecup]

its Called Final Fantasy, you can't say logic applies to an obviously illogical game

Then why are you trying to logically prove that Aeris pracitces Christianity? You can't say it's okay to disregard a logical contradiction for a problem (Cetra =/= Christianity), but then turn around and use that same logic to prove your own conclusions. That's a bit off..no?

This wasn't originally the argument that I was going for but whatever, I'll roll with the punches.

 

[Lebreau]

I told myself I wasn't going to post here again because I just get ignored anyways, but I'm going to.

I typed up the definition of cross as defined by my Webster's dictionary, and since it looks like it wasn't seen, I'll quote it here.

You say there's crosses. I say crosses don't have to be religious. The defintion of cross out of my webster's dictionary that is sitting on my lap is: 1a. An upright post with a transverse piece near the top, on which condemned people were executed in ancient times. b. often Cross. The cross on which Jesus was crucified. c. A crucifix. d. Any of various modifications of the cross design, such as a Maltese cross. 2. Christianity. The sign of the cross. 3. An affliction : BURDEN <a heavy cross to bear> 4. A mark formed by the intersection of two lines, esp. such a mark (X) used as a signature. 5. A pipefitting with four cross-shaped branches, used as a junction for intersecting pipes.

... and if I keep going, the definition will be like half a page long and I'm just not typing that much. I think I've proved that a cross does not have to equal Christianity.

While several of the definitions ARE related to Christianity, they're not all. Therefore, a cross does NOT have to be Christian.

I choose to think that this cross is not a symbol of a religion. That's my choice. It may not be your choice, but that's okay. It doesn't have to be. I have the opinion that this cross doesn't mean anything religious. Your opinion obviously differs. I don't have a problem with your opinion being different, but I do have a problem with you saying that your perceptions of this cross are fact.

What do you have to say to that? :3