Aerith and her Faith

[Rorolina Frixell]

If you follow that symbol of religion you could say the same about the Dragon Quest series, they have churches, priests and nuns and worship 'The Goddess' is it such a stretch that the same occurs in FF7 with The Planet?

And again, you're just assuming it's Jesus, until there's an official statement or incriminating concept art or something making it undeniably obvious it's Jesus... It's not

 

[coffeecup]

Whose to say that the Ancient ones aren't Christians? I'm just asking...

That's like saying "Whose to say that Muhammad was a Christian?"
The two simply can't go together.

[Disclaimer: I may get some of this wrong, but just take the general point in rather than some technicality of either Cetra or Christian belief]

For example:
The Cetra believe that all living organisms which include humans, animals, plants, insects, etc... return to the lifestream post-death. This lifestream is located within the planet and continues to perpetuate life on the planet.

Christians believe that an afterlife only has occassion for human beings. And depending on what you do while walking this earth essentially dictates where you're going to be going in the afterlife (heaven, purgatory, hell). This location is ambigous and undetermined, but it sure isn't likely to be at an actual location within the planet Earth. Additionally animals don't have an afterlife. Insects don't have an afterlife. Plants don't either.

The two are very conflicting beliefs that cannot be followed at the same time.

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

To add on to that, I believe this is the Sikh religion that says that your actions in life dictate what form you take in the next life (belief in reincarnation, basically, similar to the Cetra) for instance if you lead a bad life you might be reincarnated as a Slug or something. /food for thought

 

[Terra Branford]

If you follow that symbol of religion you could say the same about the Dragon Quest series, they have churches, priests and nuns and worship 'The Goddess' is it such a stretch that the same occurs in FF7 with The Planet?

If there are Priests, Churches, Mother Mary statues, praying, stained glass Church windows of a man with brown long hair, in a robe and has a halo on, then I suppose you could. I've only played the oldest of DQ (I believe they were known as something else back then though), so I can't recall much of those games....

And again, you're just assuming it's Jesus, until there's an official statement or incriminating concept art or something making it undeniably obvious it's Jesus... It's not

Its not an assumption when its a man with brown long hair with a halo on a stained glass window belonging to a church, something associated and is ONLY for Christianity/Catholicism. lol

So if it looks like a duck, quakes like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, poos like a duck, swims like a duck, acts like a duck, its not a duck until official statements say it is?

That's just silly xD

That's like saying "Whose to say that Muhammad was a Christian?"
The two simply can't go together.

[Disclaimer: I may get some of this wrong, but just take the general point in rather than some technicality of either Cetra or Christian belief]

(Half of that is true...there isn't any real records to even prove Muhammad even existed, so... >.>)

That is no where near the same so you're right, the two can't go together xD

For example:
The Cetra believe that all living organisms which include humans, animals, plants, insects, etc... return to the lifestream post-death. This lifestream is located within the planet and continues to perpetuate life on the planet.

And Heaven is never described in the Bible so you cannot say the Lifestream's appearance or where its at, cannot be Heaven as God or Jesus Christ never described it.

There are many verses that talk about the kingdom of God (Heaven), but none that present a description of where and what it looks like. Heaven, I believe, can be whatever you want. Its about beauty and about being in the kingdom of our Father and Jesus Christ.

You can check The Parable Discourse for more, but all are parables. Its even described that Heaven is so much, its hard to comprehend. If I remember the parables right xD

Why did you bring this up again...?

Christians believe that an afterlife only has occassion for human beings. And depending on what you do while walking this earth essentially dictates where you're going to be going in the afterlife (heaven, purgatory, hell). This location is ambigous and undetermined, but it sure isn't likely to be at an actual location within the planet Earth. Additionally animals don't have an afterlife. Insects don't have an afterlife. Plants don't either.

Are you God? You cannot say God puts them no where, because even they are His creation. Heaven is a place for human followers who obeyed the law and love of God. Animals cannot obey the law of God or read the Bible or any of that. The Bible said they can't go to Heaven, but it never says they don't go "someplace" for a rest.

In the Book of Daniel, it says the Lion will lie down for the Lamb. That's some animals in Heaven. How can a Lion and Lamb be in Heaven when they don't go to a resting place of Love?

There is also a verse: "Let every creature praise his holy name for ever and ever"

Notice the "every creature". There was so many questions that needed answering, but Jesus Christ said there was so much, he couldn't fit it all in (in quicker said words). The Bible does not contain all answers, but the answers given from our Lord and Savior. The Bible was written for Salvation, not to answer every question possible about God. So many questions, so little time.

In Deuteronomy 5:12-15, it talks of a rest day for Animals as well as humans. Animals and Humans were created the same, everything on the Planet is God's creation, God's "babies" if you will.

Read Matthew 6:26 and Psalm 104—verses 14 and 27-30. Psalm speaks of the birds of Heaven, who sing among the branches. God shows care for all his Creations, not just human.

God created prey for the hungry Lion. God created grass for the Mountain Goat. Animals were created with a short lifespan, not made like humans to live forever in the Kingdom of God. As I said earlier, animals were not placed on the earth because of Salvation.

The rest of the verses, parables and whatnot, hint that animals are "recreated" back on the earth and not sent to Heaven because of the Salvation and whatnot.

You can read

Revelation 22

Eden Restored

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

You say "you" know it can't be located on Earth, but the Garden of Eden was located on earth before the Flood.

If God felt that the animals meant nothing, He wouldn't have created them for Adam (read the verse and see how Adam feels them to be, from God's creation), He wouldn't have the Lion, the Lamb and birds in His Kingdom. He wouldn't have asked us to be kind to them and whatnot.

"You" cannot know what and where Heaven is, its too much for the mind of a human to comprehend, which is why its said in Parables. Again, the Bible mentions so

If you lose a pet that you loved, Jesus Christ and God will know how much you loved it and the compassion and love you showed to that animal and will bring it there for you, because God and Jesus love you and want you to be happy. And under God's love and care, we are happy and our pets (if we want them to be there) will be there, because of the love we and the animals are given, as His Creations.

Whose to say the Lifestream doesn't lead you to a faraway place? Whose to say it doesn't take you someplace else? The "entrance" exists on the Planet in FF7, but it never mentions that it takes you to a place located on the Planet and it never says it does take you to another place.

The two are very conflicting beliefs that cannot be followed at the same time.

You posted things that doesn't prove or disprove, anything that has been said... >.>

 

[coffeecup]

^^
:/ Isn't it great when the ambiguity of religion has an answer/interpretation for everything into anything. If you just take a step back and look at "Cetra belief" vs. "Christian belief," the two are as opposed as Islam and Christianity, yet you claim they could coexist by pulling minute bits and pieces from the Bible like a true religion warrior.

I can tell that a continued discussion on this isn't really going to progress in the way either of us wants (e.g., we'll both never concede really).

"A+" for effort, but you haven't really done anything more than play ambiguity towards your favor. The inherent ideas of Christianity are against you, so I'm sticking to my conclusion.

 

[Squid]

Its not an assumption when its a man with brown long hair with a halo on a stained glass window belonging to a church, something associated and is ONLY for Christianity/Catholicism. lol

So if it looks like a duck, quakes like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, poos like a duck, swims like a duck, acts like a duck, its not a duck until official statements say it is?

That's just silly xD

I'm sorry but this is a game... you do realise this...? They can create whatever stained glass character they like, give it brown hair and a halo to represent that it is a church for a religion without it being Christianity. Aerith has brown hair, so did Mary, is Aerith meant to be Mary? She's a She and has brown hair and is religious, that means its her? Remember, duck, duck, duck!

And i looked at the stained glass image and it looks like a blob of nothing to me... but some how you're seeing Jesus in it... perhaps like that piece of toast someone saw jesus in too?

The fact is, they took some imagery from real religions to create their own in game religion and I don't see why you guys can't accept that?? Its really not so hard.

You're christian but why does that mean everything else has to be? Cant the game just have a fake religion based loosly off yours?

Isn't that good enough?

 

[Terra Branford]

yet you claim they could coexist by pulling minute bits and pieces from the Bible like a true religion warrior.

(And what do you mean by "true religion warrior"? That kinda comes off as offensive, man >.>)

Wait, I don't understand. Why don't you want to debate this further? Why are you getting angry (?) that I posted back to answer your post...?

The "claiming" was done by you when you
accused the creator of Man and Animal of not caring for those He created and provides a home of love and security as if you knew the word of God and that God Himself came and told you.

You say they cannot exist because they are different, I proved you wrong. So now you are....what exactly?

Going to leave because I did as what I am supposed in a debate? Prove the opposing "team" wrong and bring evidence of the sort pertaining to the matter at hand? The matter you yourself brought fourth to the discuss to somehow disprove of my position in the debate and the evidence that we've brought together to bring C/C in the game?

The inherent ideas of Christianity are against you, so I'm sticking to my conclusion.

Excuse me? Did you not read my post where I posted from the BIBLE? lol

It seems to me you didn't even bother to read the post. It seems to me, you have no idea what you're talking about and made an assumption of our Creator where he and Jesus clearly talk about animals. Again, you would have know he does if you read my post at least a little.

I'm sorry but this is a game... you do realise this...? They can create whatever stained glass character they like, give it brown hair and a halo to represent that it is a church for a religion without it being Christianity. Aerith has brown hair, so did Mary, is Aerith meant to be Mary? She's a She and has brown hair and is religious, that means its her? Remember, duck, duck, duck!

And? Just because its a game doesn't mean religion cannot exist in it.

You've used the "duck duck duck" entirely wrong. Again, how much "coincidence" needs to appear for you (all of you xD) to know its not just "coincidence"?

Its not the fact that he has "brown hair and appeared on some glass" its the fact that he appeared on a CHURCH's stained glass window in same design and fashion and pose, even in descriptive detail, as Jesus Christ lol

And i looked at the stained glass image and it looks like a blob of nothing to me... but some how you're seeing Jesus in it... perhaps like that piece of toast someone saw jesus in too?

If that looks like a blob to you, then I don't know what to say to that >.>

Its a church's window, has a a man with brown hair and halo behind his head to help the cause of the Church, something associated with C/C. Aerith prays to The Gospel for the aid of Angels.

Its not JUST the glass of the man who "just by coincidence" appears as Jesus Christ, but that its on a Church's window where a woman to prays to The Gospel for the aid of Catholic angels and all the rest we've brought forth.

Is the toast relevant for a Church or a the symbol of the Savior Jesus Christ? No it is not and not relevant to the discussion here as Jesus Christ appearing on toast holds no bearing over a Church's window, a house of worship for us, having Jesus Christ on it.

The fact is, they took some imagery from real religions to create their own in game religion and I don't see why you guys can't accept that?? Its really not so hard.

....

And why is it so hard for you to accept her as a Christian. The same could be said to you.

"Its really not so hard".

You're christian but why does that mean everything else has to be? Cant the game just have a fake religion based loosly off yours?

Isn't that good enough?

Why can't you look back at posts...?

No one said she HAS to be a Christian for us. The discussion is about whether or not she is one. If she's a Christian or not, doesn't put a negative view on her character for me or Cali, or Baby, or anyone else debating the issue.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

I have a question.

Isnt the concept of christain religion about a community coming together in unity to worship and help each other?

ln the U.S there are over 450,000 churches with probably 80 to 90% of the population involved in the believe, service or worship of a central god figure. and the churches are very well presented and cared for.

The church consistently used as a example in this thread is a run down piece of crap more akin to a glorified greenhouse where Aerith/Aeris grew her flowers, forgive the defamation but its true. There are holes in the floor and a giant hole in the roof.

My point is that if Chistianity were in FFVII wouldnt the 1 and singular church be cared for and well maintained and attended by many instead of a single woman who uses the dirt to profit from selling flowers/??

A single woman who is never seen praying in the church in question?

And as believers using the evidence presented if l was a christain l would be offended to see the principle house of worship for my faith used in such a manner and not to have it venerated to a higher plateau in stead of it being in the run down piece of crap slums?

Remember it used to be on the top plate until it fell on Aeris one day, which offers more questions why was it expunged from the top plate in the first place? was the religion abandoned to the profitability of Mako energy?

Even if Aeris was a converted christain she wasnt doing a very good job of it, spreading the word of lord bringing in the flock, it was the slums surely there were enough people suffering that they could have looked to place for refuge and comfort.

Instead the church was looked upon as a run down shit hole where no one went save for Aeris
and even that wasnt to pray, it was to garden.

The incongruities and disparity in the arguments of the proponents of this argument are to far apart to be used effectively too many times in history have the facts been used to further the influence of a singular religion.

I say the lack of 100% evidence in favor of Aerith being a christain is false, you cant have facts for and against and blatantly miss the most fundamental part of the christain religion.

The community aspect.

A single woman is not a religion.

My apologies Kacey

 

[coffeecup]

@ Terra

Damn...you are really going all out on this aren't you. I still disagree, but I'm not as committed as you on this point of the game to expend much more effort on this really.

Verdict on the issue:
You win, Aerith is Christian.

Now stop dissecting my messages line by line. I'm going to go get a beer and finish my homework. Adamant FF forumers sticking to their guns is too much for me to handle.

Btw "religion warrior" is just some random term I made up on the spot. Nothing meant to be derogatory at all, just thought it sounded cool and fit the situation. Pretty nifty huh.

 

[Terra Branford]

Galaxy, a Church is not needed to be a Christian. Going to it and "spreading the word of the Lord" is not a Christian's job. I'm not expected by my Lord to spread the word of God, attend churches or any of that, and I am still a Christian. You cannot use that as a reason as to why she isn't, because Christians aren't obligated to do so. I'm too have Faith in him, Love him and follow his Law, not going around shouting at people the teachings of the Lord to try and force them to convert

I don't go to a church. Does that make me less of a Christian? No. I don't spread the word of God because Jesus says to love thy neighbor as you do yourself. I will love that neighbor regardless of religion. Does any of that make me less of a Christian? No, it doesn't, because it isn't obligatory of us.

Isnt the concept of christain religion about a community coming together in unity to worship and help each other?

No, its not. Its about Following the Lord's law, loving Him, Obeying His word and seeing Jesus Christ as our Savior and the Only Son of God and the rest. (you'd really have to read the Bible if you haven't )

Its not about gathering in a church. Its not about spreading his word. Its not obligatory of it to attend a church or spread word of Him. A lot of Christians cannot access a Church in a lot of places, God knows this and he doesn't fault it. Think about the Christians in the far East. They can't even have churchs. Does that make them less Christians? Its about their Faith.

And as believers using the evidence presented if l was a christain l would be offended to see the principle house of worship for my faith used in such a manner and not to have it venerated to a higher plateau in stead of it being in the run down piece of crap slums?

She's a Slum girl with no money. How is she suppose to do any of what you said when she's selling flowers for 1 Gil?? She certainly couldn't stop the church from getting destroyed. A church is a church, no matter the state its in.

Instead the church was looked upon as a run shit hole where no one went save for Aeris and even that wasnt to pray, it was to garden.

No one went out there because they didn't a: know it was there besides some children, Aerith, Cloud and CO and maybe Zack and her mom..

Who cares what it was "looked upon as". I can assure you now here in the real world, there are people who look at churches as "run shit holes" where no one wants to go. Does that make it so? Does any of what you said actually mean it can't be in the game or that Aerith cannot be a Christian?

No, it doesn't....

Like in the Book of Eli...the world is destroyed, no churches remain and only one Bible left. Does that mean the religion no longer exists because the Churchs are gone or destroyed like Aerith's church?

Or how about in the Road? Everything is destroyed, same situation. Does that make the religion any less there? Does it make it non-existent? Nopes

A single woman is not a religion.

And in the real world, if all but one loses Faith in the Lord, does that make the religion non-existent? Nopes. :>

@coffeecup:
I love debating (I only ever leave when I'm being insulted xD) and I can't seem to explain the next reason why I do this because it keeps coming out wrong in my head xD

Alright, I thought you were calling me a religious tard (in a sense) but in a different term. xD

===========

I have to go too. Its pretty late and I have a lot of work to do tonight xD

Bye everyone! :>

 

[Fusionist]

So here's an interesting tidbit. Thanks to FFX-2, we now know that FFX and FFVII are the same world (with FFX taking place thousand/s of years before). Maybe the church in FFVII was a leftover of the Yevon religion then?

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Oh well now you are being ridiculous

Lets not derail this thread by talking logic Fissionist, So after months of "debate: we have neither convinced each other or confirmed the existence of any religion in FFVII save some some knd of planet worship in cosmo canyon, a buddhism thing goin on in Wutai and some super spiritualism by the Ancients.

I think it would be wise to hold this thread in abeyance.

Quickly before Ringo tells us we are wasting our time

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

Just to throw it out there, if Aerith was in fact the only woman who worshipped God (quite possible, given the circumstances) that makes it little more than a Cult, for it to be a Religion I think it needs a few million members

For instance, though probably a poor example, the Jedi religion until recently was a Cult because it's member base was low

 

[Demon]

As has been said about 48 bajillion times in thread, no one is debating that there is religious influence in Final Fantasy 7, in Aeris' character/beliefs, or in the entire FF series. All of your circumstantial evidence is great, but until either a character says 'I love Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the King of Kings, blah blah blah,' or one of the creators of the games says 'Yes, Character X is Christian, and worships Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the King of Kings, blah blah blah,' it is simply an assumption.

I think those arguing that Aerith is a Christian should listen to this post.

One can list the religious elements and symbolism, but a good definition of Christianity seems to be "those who believe in Jesus Christ." Now the problem is proving that Jesus Christ exists as a character in the game. Otherwise you just have to say that Aerith is religious, and religious characters is an obvious element of Final Fantasy.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Hm, I love the way my Harry Potter comparison was brushed off on visual evidence only, which is what the mast majority of this theory is based off of. Have you ever read HP? The parallels to Jesus are quite clear in the story, and JKR has even said in interviews that it was intended, so yeah, that's quite a bit more than a brown haired man in a window isn't it?

Jesus Christ did not exist in FF7, or any of the Final Fantasy. We see churches in a lot of games, but they usually aren't about religious importance but rather serve as a safe places or sanctuary. Xenosaga Episode I had a church and had lots of religious aspects, and many of them weren't just implied.

However, FF7 implies them at your best, and never directly states anything. Aerith is fighting for The Planet, not for Jesus. And what about the Lifesteam? Where does Jesus factor into the recycling of life as the force of the planet? Is there even a need for a God in that sort of setting?

For all we know the Church in the slums was the remains of some other lost religion that only existed in FF7, with a brown haired man who could factor into any of a thousand situations. It's not like a fictional religion can't still have a church or such. And Aerith never really mentions a God or any sort of belief in such in my memory. Most Christians don't dance around that do they?

In fact, FF7 has more pagan elements then Christan ones, what with all the references to the Planet and the Lifestream sparkled throughout. And if Aerith is a Christian, then where are the rest? The City of the Ancients didn't seem like a church or anything like that, so you can't really say that it implies that all the Ancients are all Christians.

And where does Jenova factor in? Is she a weapon of Satan or such? And if Aerith is a Christan, then how in the world is she the only one? I don't seen any long discussions about another character's faith so I would have to assume she's the only one in question. And why would Square put only one sing Christan and one single church in FF7 if they wanted to make a religious statement?

All the evidence you present is circumstantial because you can't prove with it that without a doubt Aerith was a Christian. Aerith being in a church doesn't mean that she's a Christian. The flowers only growing in the church could just as easily be explained by science as religion, perhaps the wood floor of the church rotting and the dirt in that are was good for flowers? It's just as likely an explanation as her being religious.

The closet you get to making religious implications in FF7 is to say that Aerith was a Christ figure. There's no hard proof of anything else.

 

[Terra Branford]

So here's an interesting tidbit. Thanks to FFX-2, we now know that FFX and FFVII are the same world (with FFX taking place thousand/s of years before). Maybe the church in FFVII was a leftover of the Yevon religion then?

Though this is true, there are more than one religion in worlds and in games. It can't be the same religion as they aren't any churchs, but temples, in FF10. The practices are different as well, nor does any other character practice Christian practices as Aerith does.

@Ke$ha: Yes, I and Cali have read it and watched the movies. I see no such comparison 'cause it doesn't exist.

A good "image" > "Jesus" would be DragonKeepers Chronicles. If the figure/image acts as Paladin does in that, then you can say it resembles Jesus Christ because that's how Jesus is.

I have HP and have never encountered that which you speak of. He reminds me of a young boy with problems he must overcome and whatnot, but not of Jesus Christ.

I think those arguing that Aerith is a Christian should listen to this post.

The same could be said to those who deny the evidence, the clear evidence, that has been posted other than "it can't be"....

@GalaxyFlare:
You are right; it appears no one can come to an agreement, the thread literally has gone no where except "nah uh" and "yuh-huh". >.>

 

[Demon]

The same could be said to those who deny the evidence, the clear evidence, that has been posted other than "it can't be"....

There is nothing wrong with denying something. But when one argues something, such as that Aerith is a Christian, the burden of proof tends to be on them.

In my post above, I pointed out an argument which holds weight against the "Aerith is a Christian" argument. I haven't looked through all the pages, but if there was some proof of Jesus Christ in VII, you have a valid argument.

 

[Terra Branford]

There is nothing wrong with denying something. But when one argues something, such as that Aerith is a Christian, the burden of proof tends to be on them.

In my post above, I pointed out an argument which holds weight against the "Aerith is a Christian" argument. I haven't looked through all the pages, but if there was some proof of Jesus Christ in VII, you have a valid argument.

What posts have you've been reading exactly? Because we have been posting evidence. It was the other side that wasn't other than "its not, its not, its not".

I am fully aware that the burden falls on us as we've been the only ones actually doing it

No, no, no...its the matter of which "will you guys take it as proof?". Its not that we haven't, its that you guys need Jesus Christ or God himself, to appear in the thread and proclaim its true... >.>

 

[Demon]

What posts have you've been reading exactly? Because we have been posted evidence. It was the other side that wasn't other than "its not, its not, its not".

That's the problem though, a lot of that proof just points to "Aerith is religious", not "Aerith is a Christian". How have we established that Aerith is a Christian? And since a Christian is seemingly one who believes in Jesus, what parts of the definition of "Christian" do we apparently have to take out?

 

[Terra Branford]

That's the problem though, a lot of that proof just points to "Aerith is religious", not "Aerith is a Christian". How have we established that Aerith is a Christian? And since a Christian is seemingly one who believes in Jesus, what parts of the definition of "Christian" do we apparently have to take out?

It points only to Abrahamic religions: Christian, Catholic and Jewish. Not Islamic, not Hindu religion, not Buddhist, not Sikhism or anything other religion.

We have proven that its of one of those three, with too many Christian acts, practices, churches, Jesus Christ, The Gospel, Catholic Angels and whatnot, to be "buddhist" or anything else.

Again...it comes down to if you guys, will take it as evidence, which isn't going to happen I suppose... >.>