Aerith and her Faith

[The Witch]

I did in my last post.

Or at least I attempted to.

To expand on it, who is to say that if the FFVII Hawaii, Texas and Korea exist that they will be the same as our planet's Hawaii, Texas and Korea?

Why would they be on the FFVII planet anyway?

If other games can have towns and locations which share names with Earth locations, yet are clearly not our locations, then wouldn't it be safer to conclude that if Hawaii, Texas and Korea were mentioned in anything other than a poster / flyer / billboard which only keenest players will notice, and were shown to be real places in the FFVII universe, that they would be different to our own?

Karnak in FFV looks nothing like Karnak at all, for example. It isn't Karnak, yet it is named Karnak.

Midgar takes its name from Midgard, yet it wouldn't make sense for the realm of Midgard to be limited to only Midgar city within the FFVII universe unless it was to be taken as an allusion or a metaphor relating to the power of mankind within it.

My bad, I must've missed your post.

But, before, when we had exact things tied only to Christianity, you all said it wasn't enough, you said it needed to be named to prove it. But now you're saying it has to look like it to prove it's something. Well, the religious examples we've given are more than spot on and they're also named after Christian themes. So, since it looks like it and is named it, it's it right?

 

[Dionysos]

If it is both named and appears like it, and is written into the mythology of the planet, then yes, I guess so, if you wanted to view it that way. If I've said it only needs either one or the other to be taken as fact, then I apologise as that is not what I meant.

I'm not saying things have to look like they do here either. I'm saying they need to feel like they do here and have the same beliefs / values / anything, and to make sense.

What I mean to say is that there cannot be a mismatch if we are to take things existing in the FFVII world as exactly the same as things on our world. We can believe that they are, if that is our own personal vision of the game, and that is fine, but we can't suggest it as all-consuming fact when other people can see something entirely different.

Since the faith and belief of Christianity isn't addressed it cannot be taken to be solid fact that Christianity exists as it does here, if at all. The mythology of FFVII draws from many different cultures at the same time, and for different purposes, but sometimes these do conflict as laid out in this thread. If we were to take all references as being factual representations of what happened here then we'd be in for a bumpy ride, and by the end of it we'll have no idea where we are driving as nothing will make sense anymore.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Look guys Im not saying that people who have a belief in a god are STUPID or incapable of intelligent conversation, not at all but in this increasingly pointless debate there have been lines drawn.

I am going to say this: With out there faith proponents of the "Aerith is a christain" have no basis to there claim, with out there believe in God there arguments lack merit. Its just a bunch of talking heads.

There belief/faith is what allows them to see certain aspect of imagery in FFVII as being representative off there respective religion, that is the very core of the argument point.

Those of us who dont have such a deep seeded belief view and interpret the imagery of FFVII as being representative of christianity sure, but not an absolute confirmation of its existence.

The real question here is "Why do some off us believe Aerith is a christain?"

The answer is simple Faith and belief drives people towards it, this is not an generalisation either, some people in this thread may believe in God and still not recognise the evidence as absolute.

I think I have a better way of putting it?

There is not enough evidence to suggest Aerith is a christain for most, and Faith/belief fills in the gap with an absolute confidence that it is so..............Like Aerith/Aeris says:

"You Just feel it"

Those of us with out it Cant make the Leap those who do can.
(I am so gonna get my ass handed to me)

 

[Harlequin]

To expand on it, who is to say that if the FFVII Hawaii, Texas and Korea exist that they will be the same as our planet's Hawaii, Texas and Korea?

It feels as if we're just splitting hairs now. The influence undoubtedly comes from the real world, whether they wish to state that it's meant to be divorced from the real Hawaii, the correlation is still true. It's probably best explained as a form of breaking the fourth wall without actually breaking from the narrative.

 

[Dionysos]

That'll be allusions and influence though, not actual existence, which has been what I've tried to say is how I feel about it from the very beginning of this thread. FFVII contains many, many references to our planet, and I do believe that these are used to make an ultimate point / points about our planet and our cultures. The only difference is that, for me, it stops there.

Whether we want to take it further and believe that FFVII is our world, and not just a representation, is a matter of opinion and personal belief, I think.

There are reasons for choosing the names, choosing the imagery, and choosing the overall themes of the game. It doesn't mean that the characters associated with them are to be knowledgeable about this.

The ironic thing about this thread is that both sides do on the whole concede to a similar argument, it's just where we discuss the actual beliefs of fictional characters where things get misty.

I'd say that the Hawaii drink / posters etc are breaking the fourth wall. We see them, and we get it. But if they were to create them in the FFVII game, make them actual places, such as they have with many others, then it becomes a different place, and a fictional location of its own.

 

[The Witch]

If it is both named and appears like it, and is written into the mythology of the planet, then yes, I guess so. If I've said it only needs either one or the other to be taken as fact, then I apologise as that is not what I meant.

I'll be honest, so many people have come into this thread, I can't keep track of who said what. So I'm not sure if you said it. But there has been the majority of frequent debaters in here on the opposing side that has.

On topic, how would they write something into their mythology of the planet? It's a fine argument, but, why should SE have to explain such things when they're showing it? If they didn't want us to feel as if Christianity existed in their realm, they wouldn't have put it in there. They could have made Aerith religious and not had heavy Christian qualities to her. Like they did for Rinoa or Yuna.

Since the faith and belief of Christianity isn't addressed it cannot be taken to be solid fact that Christianity exists as it does here, if at all. The mythology of FFVII draws from many different cultures at the same time, and for different purposes, but sometimes these do conflict as laid out in this thread. If we were to take all references as being factual representations of what happened here then we'd be in for a bumpy ride, and by the end of it we'll have no idea where we are driving as nothing will make sense anymore.

Okay, like I've said before, there are crosses, Catholic churches, Catholic angels, books called the Great Gospel, prayers during the Great Gospel, talks of heaven, hell, and sin, and even a picture of a brown haired man with a golden halo behind his head. Those few qualities are indeed what make up Christianity in our world. If those things exist within the Christian faith in our world, and those very same qualities are shown in VII's realm... what are they? Are they Islamically tied? Jewish, Buddhist, Pagan aspects and qualities?

No.

All those qualities/themes belong to Christianity... so when WE see those themes, they are indeed Christian. Even if the creators never state so.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

There is the Key statement Cali:

All those qualities/themes belong to Christianity... so when WE see those themes, they are indeed Christian. Even if the creators never state so.

Not everybody is Christain, things arent interpreted by everyone the same, I know you know this, I dont like the idea of a division but if there has to be one then being Christain is what it will be

Its not a bad thing but it does form a line between our view points.

I dont think anyone entered into this debate with the intention of swaying people beliefs but it has turned out to be more than mere opinion swapping. My back ground and the things a I know and believe in no way sway me to believe Aeris is a christain, depicted as a Woman with an affiliation with a great spiritual body, the Lifetream, and possesing powers attributed to a higher power, but how we do know the life stream doesnt bestow these abilities upon her?

We dont know enough about the Ancients to say other wise.

I would look for a canon source to her abilities before I presumed something un-implied from reality.

Id also look for a cannon generally and stick it on my roof!!

 

[The Witch]

^so... then, what am I to you? What religion do I practice? I've never out right stated I'm Christian, but rather, little hints.

Make a logical conclusion on what I do and say, and tell me what religion am I.

 

[Squid]

Wow Cali... you're joking right??

I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous argument.
You're here in the real world. You Openly believe in god, jesus and christianity.
Aerith lives in a fantasy world where she believes in teh life stream and the planet...

 

[GalaxyFlare]

To me It doesnt matter what religion you are! I never give much validity to Religion in my life but you have demonstrated a more than firm belief in in some religion and given your back ground and where you are from I presume you are smack in the middle of it up to your eyeballs.

So Im say...............you are a member of Kates Broccoli worshipping cult?>

 

[The Witch]

Wow Cali... you're joking right??

I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous argument.
You're here in the real world. You Openly believe in god, jesus and christianity.
Aerith lives in a fantasy world where she believes in teh life stream and the planet...

Can you please lose the attitude? It's not ridiculous. If SE didn't want Aerith painted as a Christian faith woman, they wouldn't have done any of what they did.

They did so, to make her to the viewers a Christian, that's what matters.

 

[Squid]

Can you please lose the attitude? It's not ridiculous. If SE didn't want Aerith painted as a Christian faith woman, they wouldn't have done any of what they did.

They did so, to make her to the viewers a Christian, that's what matters.

I'm not giving any attitude... i just can't believe what i am reading.

You've had attitude this entire thread. Please don't just shove your side onto everyone and try and take in what other people have to say.

If SE wanted Aerith to be a christian, they would have said "Aerith is a christian" and Aerith would believe in god and Jesus not the Lifestream and the planet.

 

[Noize]

Ok listen up.

Aerith ain't Christian, she ain't bhuddist or any of that shit.

She's CETRAN! OK!!!!!!

Now seriously, close this thread

FFVII is a game. there might be traces of real life objects in the game but that has no real effect on the characters faith ever heard of decoration? this is Japan we're talking about....

Now again. Close this thread.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

They did so, to make her to the viewers a Christian, that's what matters.

How do you know this?

What makes this statement more true than mine or Squids Or Triple T's or Dan's and lets not forget Ringo? How can you declare this this with no proof and only your word?

What gives you such belief? that we have harped on for 38 pages of this and that bull shit arguments?

What makes it so?

(Careful or this could quickly escalate)

 

[The Witch]

I'm not giving any attitude... i just can't believe what i am reading.

You've had attitude this entire thread. Please don't just shove your side onto everyone and try and take in what other people have to say.

If SE wanted Aerith to be a christian, they would have said "Aerith is a christian" and Aerith would believe in god and Jesus not the Lifestream and the planet.

Please, show me my attitude. Because I've yet to be spoken to about it.

The fact of the matter is, SE made Aerith visit a Catholic church, pray on her knees during the Great Gospel so Catholic angels can help her.


SE made it very clear what religion they wanted Aerith to be associated to.

 

[Lebreau]

Okay, let's all leave each other alone and continue discussing what faith Aerith is of. It wouldn't hurt some of us to be a bit more open-minded, and I don't want to see any personal comments at people either.

Please realize that just because YOU see something as one definite result doesn't mean that everyone is going to come to the same conclusions and don't shove any views down people's throats as absolute truth.

Please do not make me warn you again, or I'll be giving out personal warnings via PM/infractions. Thank you.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

SE made it very clear what religion they wanted Aerith to be associated to.

Associated with? I thought she was a christain? I have an association with my dentist and my bank manager............you just said to be associated with, not believe in anymore?

Association and Belief are not the same thing, for example a church my have an "association" with a.........trucking company or a cleaning company it does not automatically make them Christain.

Im Sorry but the word "Association" Sounds like a capitulation or retraction from your previous statements?

 

[Squid]

If SE made it clear that Aerith was a Christian...what is this debate thread for and why is it not so clear to half of the posters in it?

 

[Saints&Storms]

In Final Fantasy VII When you get the mythril so you can get the book for Aerith's Limit Break, her book is called "The Great Gospel", the book Aerith reads to learn her last and Final Limit Break. Every final limit for each character is achieved when you get their book. Aerith BOOK is called "The Great Gospel". So not not only is she praying for Divine/angelic aid, but she achieved so by reading a book called The Great Gospel. That's what praying to the Gospel is. Her Limit is achieved by reading a book called the Great Gospel.

I don't know it kinda sells itself How many other book are called the Gospel?


The logic has been laid out, however many people keep arguing whether or not the actual existence is something else altogether and would rather it simply shares the name alone, that the Day of The Sabbath in FFIX rather than being religious "shares the name alone", even though there are priests and churches in the game as well, no matter how many thing we prove exist in the games and they very well may be these things, it doesn't matter because the opposers of this thread will say what they have always said; they are symbols, or they only share the name or resemblance.

^I couldn't help but notice my entire post was ignored completely.

GalaxyFlare, you are playing semantics. You know Caliquins stance in this debate, and that is Aerith is Christian, she practices the Christian Faith. However your as well as everyone else' stances have changed through out the entire thread, first she could be Buddhits, Jewish etc. then no religion existed in the game, then she worshipped the planet, and so on.

Also I see lots of people saying this thread is "rediculous"(I'm lookin' at you MasamuneaII), all I have to say is; you are not compelled to post here, argue, or debate the fact that Aerith is Christian.

We aren't simply saying "this is that, and thats just the way it is" we have compiled a great deal of evidencial support and facts on the matter. When you see someone pray after retrieving a book called the Great Gospel, and Angels come to said prayers aid, and they have even prayed in a Church; survey says -- they are Christian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by o0PinkSquid0o
If SE made it clear that Aerith was a Christian...what is this debate thread for and why is it not so clear to half of the posters in it?

Perhaps because of the ever evident vitriole displayed in the like mock threads about the spam section and this thread as well?

--

Also I think we should heed .Rinoa's warning, it seems as though the heat is going to rear its ugly head again, or that no one read her warning in the first place.

 

[Terra Branford]

Im Sorry but the word "Association" Sounds like a capitulation or retraction from your previous statements?

A Christian is associated with the Bible, God, Jesus Christ and our religion.

So...Aerith would be associated with/to Christianity.

What makes this statement more true than mine or Squids Or Triple T's or Dan's and lets not forget Ringo? How can you declare this this with no proof and only your word?

We have brought proof. Where is yours? Your statements aren't enough. At least we've brought forth evidence to support our side. >.>

You guys say we don't have logic for bringing something that actually occurs in the game....Where is your proof it doesn't exist? I'm not seeing it....

Please....If I'm wrong, please show me how.

I HATE being wrong. But as of right now, I'm not seeing anything from you guys to convince me all the Christian/Catholic practices and evidence, isn't enough to prove she is Christian.