Aerith and her Faith

[Bambi]

And yes, I know what the crosses were used for before Christ. But are you all saying the Roman empire existed now? Again, can't have one without the other.

But surely they must have existed seeing as crusifiction was a form of torture long before christ was knocking about, and seeing as he was crucified on a cross, by the romans... you see where Im going with this anyway. You cant SAY OMG SHE PRAYS, THEY USE A CROSS IT MUST BE CHRISTIANITY, then say that the folk that crucified him didnt exist? who crucified him in FFVII then?

Its all just visual, what folk are familiar with innit, doesnt necessarily make it so

And she prays to the EARTH, not a god. when you are in bugenhagens laboratory, or whatever the fuck it is, not one mention is made to god or jesus, its all about the earth and how living things are born from and rejoin the earth when they die. If anything, it's the souls of the planet she is praying to

Its the lifesteam itself that comes to save the day *insert Jonny Bravo pose* not some god or other. She can communicate with these souls, she says as much when she speaks of her adoptive mothers husband and her own mother 'i thought id stop hearing her voice as i grew up' only she can do this. When she is'praying' it's just visualisation to show she is asking the planet for help

do we see anyone else 'pray' ?

It is all just imagery, so we can connect with her and what she is doing.

that's my take on it

Some one fucking email whoever made the game and fucking ask

 

[Eight]

I-I'm not trying to put anyone's opinions down. I'm trying to discuss something.

I'm willing to believe you, just don't act like you're opinion is for definite. It is a matter of opinion, there really isn't a matter of right and wrong. Refer to it like it's just your opinion. Remember, what you see as clues, we may consider as symbolism, interpret it the way you want, and leave everyone else to interpret it how they want.

And Harly, the matter here seems to be that it's left for YOU as the player to decide that for yourself, that is most likely why no religion in the game is mentioned, it really doesn't matter how much it's based off a certain religion. It is never clearly referrenced whether or not it's definitely one certain religion, therefore, we're left to believe it's a certain religion, or even a religion unique to their world.

Thing is, I can see both sides, why some people would choose to interpret it as Christianity and some Pagan, but no matter what, until Square say otherwise, there isn't a definite religion in the game, just what the player chooses to see.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Harle- the use of symbolism in a work does not mean the thing that is symbolized exists within the universe of that work.
Final Fantasy Tactics is a perfect example of this. Chock full of what you might see as Christian religious iconography, Incidents in western and middle eastern history, etc.
It even has Saints and Gospels.
Christianity nor its god exist in that world.

For the record, Aerith is not Christian. Pagan religions can exist without Christianity existing. Catholics are Christian. 'Gospel', Crosses, Kneeling, and Praying with clasped hands are not Christian Exclusive in the slightest. Non Christians and the Areligious can be just as knowledgeable about Christianity as Christians. Studies show they are.
Cali will take all these statements of objective fact as a personal attack against her simply because I am saying them.
Yes, that is for the record.

 

[Harlequin]

And Harly, the matter here seems to be that it's left for YOU as the player to decide that for yourself, that is most likely why no religion in the game is mentioned, it really doesn't matter how much it's based off a certain religion. It is never clearly referrenced whether or not it's definitely one certain religion, therefore, we're left to believe it's a certain religion, or even a religion unique to their world.

And I would agree that it is down to the player, but the religion exists in the game because it influenced the creator(s) in their composition of the game.

For example I could paint a painting but that painting would only exist within the influences I've been influenced by. I can only paint that painting using colours that exist to me, whether I perceive them to be there or not. If I paint red into the picture, I've imbued it with not only the obvious aesthetic variation but the connotations that could well differ from person to person. Fundamentally however, red now exists as a truth and constant within that work of art.

The use of the word 'Church' is enough of a reference for we as the audience to make the assumption that there is indeed Christian influence in the work of art that is FFVII, although the creator may deny it. And where there is influence there is existence. At that point it doesn't matter if no one in the game's universe acknowledges it's presence, it is still there in the makeup of the game's universe.

Harle- the use of symbolism in a work does not mean the thing that is symbolized exists within the universe of that work.

It does as explained above. A work of art says more about itself than the creators' intentions. The work tells us that whilst the creators may not subscribe to the philosophy of Christianity they have indeed been influenced by the mark its made on our society and that influence has been branded into their work of art.

Art is a reflection of ourselves, whether or not we realise it. It exists only as we perceive it to.

 

[blakstang98]

My memory of FFVII is a bit vague, but I saw the church that Aeris was in as more of a place of refuge and a place where flowers grew in the slums. She doesn't go there to pray, that's more of a just a place she hangs out and does unreligious things at.

And if I'm not mistaken, a cross is used in pretty much every religion (though I don't know this for sure). It's almost like a universal symbol. Crosses are there, but even they don't necessarily mean that there is a religion in the game. You can surely argue that because she prays in order to summon Holy that she's praying to a deity, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's Christianity. She may be praying to multiple gods for all we know.

I also think that because it's a fictional video game, that if there is some kind of religious representation, that the religion is a fictional one. But I do think that drawing up real world relgion from a video game might be a bit of a stretch. Many small things in FF games get brought up and overanalyzed, so it is worthy of debate. But at the end of the day, we'll never really know what the true answers are. We can only speculate or assume and live with that.

 

[Ilyena]

Cali will take all these statements of objective fact as a personal attack against her simply because I am saying them.
Yes, that is for the record.

Personal digs are not necessary. Please try to keep to the topic without trying to bait other members. Just as a general warning, this goes for everyone. Carry on.

 

[Harlequin]

And if I'm not mistaken, a cross is used in pretty much every religion (though I don't know this for sure). It's almost like a universal symbol. Crosses are there, but even they don't necessarily mean that there is a religion in the game.

Whilst I agree that a cross isn't necessarily synonymous with Christianity, the point I'm trying to make is that its not so much about what a cross is so much as why its in the game.

A cross can mean a multitude of things, but why has it found its way into the game? I would say because of Christian influence on the aesthetic of gothic horror.

I also think that because it's a fictional video game, that if there is some kind of religious representation, that the religion is a fictional one.

In fairness, we state the work to be fiction but for all we know it could easily be a truth. Fiction exists as fiction. It defies it's own meaning. It becomes a paradox, a constant, a truth.

The world of FFVII exists as a creation, as an alternate world - a world influenced by Science, Philosophy and indeed Religion, which makes those particular mediums and concepts exist in the game.

But I do think that drawing up real world relgion from a video game might be a bit of a stretch. Many small things in FF games get brought up and overanalyzed, so it is worthy of debate. But at the end of the day, we'll never really know what the true answers are. We can only speculate or assume and live with that.

And I fully agree. Nevertheless, its not only the religion in FFVII I'm arguing for, its external influences in works of art that I've moved onto which is still very much apparent here.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And I would agree that it is down to the player, but the religion exists in the game because it influenced the creator(s) in their composition of the game.

For example I could paint a painting but that painting would only exist within the influences I've been influenced by. I can only paint that painting using colours that exist to me, whether I perceive them to be there or not. If I paint red into the picture, I've imbued it with not only the obvious aesthetic variation but the connotations that could well differ from person to person. Fundamentally however, red now exists as a truth and constant within that work of art.

The use of the word 'Church' is enough of a reference for we as the audience to make the assumption that there is indeed Christian influence in the work of art that is FFVII, although the creator may deny it. And where there is influence there is existence. At that point it doesn't matter if no one in the game's universe acknowledges it's presence, it is still there in the makeup of the game's universe.



It does as explained above. A work of art says more about itself than the creators' intentions. The work tells us that whilst the creators may not subscribe to the philosophy of Christianity they have indeed been influenced by the mark its made on our society and that influence has been branded into their work of art.

Art is a reflection of ourselves, whether or not we realise it. It exists only as we perceive it to.

Yes and no. On two counts.
Yes because the real world ideas and inspirations of an author are reflected in their work.
No because those same ideas and inspirations need not be 'within' the work. Lucas was inspired by Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress to make A New Hope. Many elements from the former are in the latter. Many others are not. Hidden Fortress is not 'in' A new hope. At best it has transmuted into something else, but it is not 'in' the work.
And that's setting aside Suspension of Disbelief analysis, which makes the whole idea rather pointless.
Also yes that an Author can embed elements recognizably into their work.
Also No in that what you see in that work may not be what was embedded there at all. If you see Shelly's Frankenstein full of signs that it is speaking about an incident that happened 50 years after it was written, you're definitely wrong with your interpretation.

Edit: Freddie, how is explaining myself to you unnecessary?
I do hope this won't turn out like the last time I was active where any criticism or explanation to those in charge was met with pretty overt censorcism.

 

[The Witch]

My memory of FFVII is a bit vague, but I saw the church that Aeris was in as more of a place of refuge and a place where flowers grew in the slums. She doesn't go there to pray, that's more of a just a place she hangs out and does unreligious things at.

It's still a church, though. That's what matters to me.

You can surely argue that because she prays in order to summon Holy that she's praying to a deity, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's Christianity. She may be praying to multiple gods for all we know.

Which is something else I was taking into account. If we would have just seen her praying and just praying alone--yes, we wouldn't really know what or who she was praying to. But after she prays roman catholic angels come to her aide.

It's Aerith intentionally praying on her knees to something or someone in order for Angels to come help her that makes me think about what or who she believes in.

Honestly, Tom(Harlequin) is explaining this a whole lot better than I am.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's still a church, though. That's what matters to me.

It can be a church without being a christian church.

Which is something else I was taking into account. If we would have just seen her praying and just praying alone--yes, we wouldn't really know what or who she was praying to. But after she prays roman catholic angels come to her aide.

Angels are not 'Roman Catholic' or even strictly limited to the Abrahamic faiths. How are you getting that those cherubs- who are depicted alongside greek gods rather often as well- are Catholic ones?

It's Aerith intentionally praying on her knees to something or someone in order for Angels to come help her that makes me think about what or who she believes in.

Intentionally praying is not unique to Christianity. Kneeling to pray is not unique to christianity.
Who she is praying to is the Planet or perhaps Minerva, the Goddess representing the planet.
Angels are not unique to Christianity, nor is the term Gospel.
Who or What Aerith believes in is the Cycle of Souls through the planet. She may or may not also have adherence to the Goddess Minerva.

Honestly, Tom(Harlequin) is explaining this a whole lot better than I am.

Harle isn't arguing the same things as you, however. Harle is arguing that the nature of a narrative and the nature of a fictional universe are inherently conflated, that the presence of English in a narrative makes English a part of that fictional universe, which is not the case, the same for inspirations and symbols.

Another aspect of both of your arguments though, seems to hinge on 'can't have one without the other,' which is entirely false.
As someone else has done, I reference Breath of Fire 2, in which a false religion uses the cross as its symbol, but no Rome, Jesus, or the like exists. I refer to Tales series, which references the paths of the Sephiroth despite no judaism nor kabblism existing.

At most, the imagery exists to emphasize Aerith's faith, but it does not change the factual details of what her faith is, according to the lady's own mouth.

 

[Harlequin]

It can be a church without being a christian church.

No it can't. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

They could have used 'Temple', but they didn't.

The word 'Church' has connotations imbedded in it. The word refers directly to Christianity. The only way you could argue it doesn't is if the creators themselves thought of the word 'Church' themselves through no external influence which, lets face it, isn't likely to be the case here.

Someone who plays through the game in 1000 years time will likely make the observation that Christian influence exists in game despite the game designers' shoddy attempts at creating an alternate universe. Which means Christianity exists in the game.

For example, if I play a sports game that has a physics engine I am experiencing those physics as a truth. Even if those physics aren't actually true in our reality, they are true in the game and so is physics through this influence.

The same applies with the use of Christian influence.

Harle isn't arguing the same things as you, however. Harle is arguing that the nature of a narrative and the nature of a fictional universe are inherently conflated, that the presence of English in a narrative makes English a part of that fictional universe, which is not the case, the same for inspirations and symbols.

Why is that not the case?

A book written in English immediately states English to exist.

Art only exists as we perceive it. A good example is if I tell you to read a book in language you don't recognise. The first perception you'll get is that you can't read the text. That language is the medium in which the art's concepts are conveyed therefore it is an immediate truth within that piece of art, for that art wouldn't exist as it does without that truth.

Another aspect of both of your arguments though, seems to hinge on 'can't have one without the other,' which is entirely false.
As someone else has done, I reference Breath of Fire 2, in which a false religion uses the cross as its symbol, but no Rome, Jesus, or the like exists. I refer to Tales series, which references the paths of the Sephiroth despite no judaism nor kabblism existing.

First of all the video games industry is very much in it's infancy when you consider the amount of works produced and the quality of the ideas.

Secondly, art exists as a reflection of ourselves. We can only create what we're influenced by, what inspires us. The very concept of creation is an influence in itself.

Those games exist, and they exist in this world as perceived alternate realities. But they exist as a part of our world, which means everything that is our world exists in that art as an infinity.

Cali is correct, I am correct and you are correct. Because even if we attempt to make a definate assertion we can't, because it's impossible.

Having a quick look at this thread will likely help you understand my point a bit better:

http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/religious-debate/conceptualisation-and-philosophy-43088.html

At most, the imagery exists to emphasize Aerith's faith, but it does not change the factual details of what her faith is, according to the lady's own mouth.

Whilst I agree with you here, I disagree with how definate you're making it. It's entirely possible that Aeris doesn't know what she believes, you are not Aeris, nor am I and as Roland Barthes would suggest, nor is the creator anymore.

 

[The Witch]

No it can't. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

They could have used 'Temple', but they didn't.

The word 'Church' has connotations imbedded in it. The word refers directly to Christianity. The only way you could argue it doesn't is if the creators themselves thought of the word 'Church' themselves through no external influence which, lets face it, isn't likely to be the case here.

Yes, exactly.

Christianity might not have ever been spoken of, but it exists in a sense. Like Tom said here;

The point is, Aeris' 'Church' was called just that because of Christian influence. Whether or not you wish to downplay it's significance is another story entirely, but Christian influence does now exist in that work of art which means by extention Christianity exists in FFVII.

Nice one Cali

That's--really all I was trying to mean.

 

[Shubito]

So if a Christian 'influence' is enough to assume a character is Christian. Cali would you say Aerith is the only Christian in the game? Even if it is loosely based, and far from definite that she is at all.

 

[The Witch]

I never said she's christian for sure. I have my opinion that she's heavily influenced by it, yes. But officially speaking, she isn't one. As Tom said, it's never officially spoken of in the game.

Again;
It's Aerith intentionally praying on her knees to something or someone in order for Angels to come help her that makes me think about what or who she believes in.


How she acts makes me believe she is supposed to be seen as Christian.

 

[Shubito]

Right, I get that much.

But what about things in the game such as Tifa's "Final Heaven" or owning a bar called Seventh Heaven.

Or Vincent going on about his 'sins'. Cloud seeking Forgiveness for his. His weapon "Heavens Cloud", Tifa's "God Hand".

Yes, Aerith was heavily associated with a theme that could be seen in a Christian light (As well as many others, as pointed out by others.) Thing is, is that so have others, so before thinking maybe she was supposed to be seen as such, it should be considered that it was merely a plot device.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

My memory of FFVII is a bit vague, but I saw the church that Aeris was in as more of a place of refuge and a place where flowers grew in the slums. She doesn't go there to pray, that's more of a just a place she hangs out and does unreligious things at

Stang simplicity incarnate.

Well this is a surprise to see this thread still going on, Symbolism is in fact part of this game and depending on our individual view points we will interpret them the way our mind functions, where its insight gathers and how we digest those symbols to mean something on an individual level.

Nobody here can state categorically what is in FFVII and what is not other than what we we are given to perceive, anything out side of these parameters dos not exist in the game.

There is n religion in FFVII, the only group associated with any kind of reverance to a higher power were the Ancients and l guarantee you they were not in same mold as religious people here on earth are...........sorry my bad, there is a group that did worship the lifestream in FFVII.........Shinra Inc; albeit for different reasons not so far removed from todays world.

2 things are present from this thread:

1)The overwhelming opinion is that there is no "religion" in FFVII, christian or other wise.

2) Cali would argue this point through wet cement.

I have my opinion that she's heavily influenced by it, yes. But officially speaking, she isn't one.

What does that mean exactly? that her development as a character is influenced or she as a person is influenced by it?

 

[Ilyena]

2 things are present from this thread:

1)The overwhelming opinion is that there is no "religion" in FFVII, christian or other wise.

2) Cali would argue this point through wet cement.

See my above post about making personal digs. Enough is enough. If this continues, warnings and infractions will be handed out.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No it can't. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

They could have used 'Temple', but they didn't.

They don't have to. Churches are not only christian.

The word 'Church' has connotations imbedded in it. The word refers directly to Christianity. The only way you could argue it doesn't is if the creators themselves thought of the word 'Church' themselves through no external influence which, lets face it, isn't likely to be the case here.

Or, if there's a non christian church. Such as the Churches of Dragon Quest, Breath of Fire 2, FF8, FF10 Final Fantasy Tactics, etc. etc. etc.

Someone who plays through the game in 1000 years time will likely make the observation that Christian influence exists in game despite the game designers' shoddy attempts at creating an alternate universe. Which means Christianity exists in the game.

No more than Japanese warlords exist in A new Hope. An influence to a work is not 'in' the work, even though it is a part of its creation process.

For example, if I play a sports game that has a physics engine I am experiencing those physics as a truth. Even if those physics aren't actually true in our reality, they are true in the game and so is physics through this influence.

The same applies with the use of Christian influence.

But the Christianity is not actually in the game, unlike the physics. And those physics were deliberately placed there. The same is not true of Yeshua, who is not in the universe of FF7. Xenogears and Xenosaga yes, FF7 no.

Why is that not the case?

A book written in English immediately states English to exist.

Are you familiar with Tolkien's conceit? None of the people in the LOTR world speak english or languages like it. His conceit is merely that he 'managed to decipher it from the original Hobbit' There is no English in Middle Earth. The LOTR saga is in English, but English is not 'in' the LOTR saga.

Art only exists as we perceive it. A good example is if I tell you to read a book in language you don't recognise. The first perception you'll get is that you can't read the text. That language is the medium in which the art's concepts are conveyed therefore it is an immediate truth within that piece of art, for that art wouldn't exist as it does without that truth.

But it is not a 'truth' in the work, merely how the work is conveyed.

First of all the video games industry is very much in it's infancy when you consider the amount of works produced and the quality of the ideas.

Secondly, art exists as a reflection of ourselves. We can only create what we're influenced by, what inspires us. The very concept of creation is an influence in itself.

Those games exist, and they exist in this world as perceived alternate realities. But they exist as a part of our world, which means everything that is our world exists in that art as an infinity.

So all things are in all works, then.
This is why I hate postmodernist literary analysis. It produces nonsense.

Cali is correct, I am correct and you are correct. Because even if we attempt to make a definate assertion we can't, because it's impossible.

Only if you demand perfection rather than improvement and continual refinement.

Having a quick look at this thread will likely help you understand my point a bit better:

http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/religious-debate/conceptualisation-and-philosophy-43088.html

Instead of proof, increasing degrees of certainty, fair enough, that's how I operate. That does not make all things equally certain. We can be more sure things than others.

Whilst I agree with you here, I disagree with how definate you're making it. It's entirely possible that Aeris doesn't know what she believes,

While possible, I see no reason to assume such given her statements on the matter and the extrauniversal 'word of god' statements on the matter.

you are not Aeris, nor am I and as Roland Barthes would suggest, nor is the creator anymore.

Roland Bathes's mistake is that think the divorce is whole and utter. No author is wholly their character, but they do speak more for their character, have a closer link to such than everyone else.

Now, keep in mind, I'm not saying Christian, Judaic, Hindu, Vedic, Arabic, etc. etc. etc. imagery isn't inescapable in the game. My argument is the inclusion of these things doesn't bring with them the whole of those religions.

 

[Harlequin]

They don't have to. Churches are not only christian.

The word and concept of a Church stems from Christianity. If another philosophy uses the word 'Church' they have been influenced either by Christianity or something Christianity has influenced.

Or, if there's a non christian church. Such as the Churches of Dragon Quest, Breath of Fire 2, FF8, FF10 Final Fantasy Tactics, etc. etc. etc.

Poorly realised universes.

And in any case, if a person plays those games in 1000 years time and manages to deduce that there is clear Christian influence in the game how can you say it doesn't exist? If they've gained that perception from the piece of art?

No more than Japanese warlords exist in A new Hope. An influence to a work is not 'in' the work, even though it is a part of its creation process.

A creation process is part of the work. If you can discern an influence from the work the influence exists, even if it was clearly not intended in the final product.

But the Christianity is not actually in the game, unlike the physics. And those physics were deliberately placed there. The same is not true of Yeshua, who is not in the universe of FF7. Xenogears and Xenosaga yes, FF7 no.

A game is interactive and where there is an interaction there are physics. It doesn't have to be placed there to be there.

Are you familiar with Tolkien's conceit? None of the people in the LOTR world speak english or languages like it. His conceit is merely that he 'managed to decipher it from the original Hobbit' There is no English in Middle Earth. The LOTR saga is in English, but English is not 'in' the LOTR saga.

But its still delivered in English because Tolkien knew the message couldn't be conveyed properly in his fabricated language. If aliens were to pick up a copy they could logically link the piece of art back to England (provided they knew where England was) because it exists in the work.

But it is not a 'truth' in the work, merely how the work is conveyed.

But if conveyance is all a work can do surely that is the most important factor. If a work can't speak to you is it a work?

So all things are in all works, then.
This is why I hate postmodernist literary analysis. It produces nonsense.

Don't you feel as if you're being stubborn now?

Only if you demand perfection rather than improvement and continual refinement.

Of a finished product?

Instead of proof, increasing degrees of certainty, fair enough, that's how I operate. That does not make all things equally certain. We can be more sure things than others.

I would say that's an arrogant way of operating. I believe we live in the constant pursuit of truth which would make all things equally uncertain, even this statement.

While possible, I see no reason to assume such given her statements on the matter and the extrauniversal 'word of god' statements on the matter.

And I would agree, but it doesn't mean the two of us are correct. Cali has just as much right to perceive it in any way she chooses.

Roland Bathes's mistake is that think the divorce is whole and utter. No author is wholly their character, but they do speak more for their character, have a closer link to such than everyone else.

Roland Barthes' book only commented on the concept, one is free to interpret his works how one wishes.

While the author is creating the work he is in God mode, when the work is finished, the reader has as much right of interpretation as the author does.

Now, keep in mind, I'm not saying Christian, Judaic, Hindu, Vedic, Arabic, etc. etc. etc. imagery isn't inescapable in the game. My argument is the inclusion of these things doesn't bring with them the whole of those religions.

And again I would agree with that, but you're trying to hard to separate that work from our reality. That work is a reflection of how we see Science, Language, Society and indeed Religion and Philosophy. FFVII is said to be a work of fiction but it exists just as much as you or I because it is a part of our world.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The word and concept of a Church stems from Christianity. If another philosophy uses the word 'Church' they have been influenced either by Christianity or something Christianity has influenced.

No. The Christian religion has assumed it means solely them, but oftentimes, including in various bible translations throughout the years, it has meant non christian religious bodies. It is suspected to stem from a number of words, all of which also refer to pagan bodies.

Poorly realised universes.

Which is relevant to their being expressly non christian churches, how?

And in any case, if a person plays those games in 1000 years time and manages to deduce that there is clear Christian influence in the game how can you say it doesn't exist? If they've gained that perception from the piece of art?

There is a blatant difference between an influence and being recognized as 'in' the work. A work can be influenced by, speak about, and symbolize many things without those things being literally in the body or story of a work.

A creation process is part of the work. If you can discern an influence from the work the influence exists, even if it was clearly not intended in the final product.

No. Because it is entirely possible to read into a work things that are not there.
An example- when I watch the Spirit movie, I always imagine this movie as taking place in the mind of a very sick man in the world of the Iron Man universe because of the coincidence of The Octopus and Silken Floss and Nick Fury and the Black Widow having the same actor and actress respectively. This is not only not implied by the work, it's also technically impossible. But by your reck, because I've seen it, it's there.

A game is interactive and where there is an interaction there are physics. It doesn't have to be placed there to be there.

Wait what? There don't have to be any physics in a game at all. Good ole Zork. Good ole Ultima.
But this is splitting hairs. My point

But its still delivered in English because Tolkien knew the message couldn't be conveyed properly in his fabricated language. If aliens were to pick up a copy they could logically link the piece of art back to England (provided they knew where England was) because it exists in the work.

Yes, because that is the language used to write the work. But that is not the language that exists inside the world of the work. We read it in English because Tolkien 'translated' it into something we understand, not because English exists in Middle Earth.

But if conveyance is all a work can do surely that is the most important factor. If a work can't speak to you is it a work?

The method of conveyance is different from what is conveyed. English is the truck. The work is the cargo. The cargo is transported equally well by tain, ship, plane, etc. Of course, that's a giant extra metaphor in itself.

Don't you feel as if you're being stubborn now?

Not in the slightest. Postmodernism is the literary solipsism. Pointless and ultimately a waste of time.

Of a finished product?

I'm not talking about the 'finished process' but the understanding of it. Same as it works with science. Facts are the 'finished product', the theories are the continually improving understanding of that.

I would say that's an arrogant way of operating. I believe we live in the constant pursuit of truth which would make all things equally uncertain, even this statement.

How is it arrogant to treat things as more likely than other based upon a body of knowledge and pattern recognition? I mean, you're calling the scientific method arrogant. We can be a lot more certain that the world was formed by natural geological processes than by being sneezed out of a giant nose last week.

And I would agree, but it doesn't mean the two of us are correct. Cali has just as much right to perceive it in any way she chooses.

She has the right, yes, but having the right to a perception or belief does not equal the right to have that belief respected (the right to have it must be respected, not the belief), nor does it make it just as valid as all other perceptions. That's the golden mean fallacy.

Roland Barthes' book only commented on the concept, one is free to interpret his works how one wishes.

While the author is creating the work he is in God mode, when the work is finished, the reader has as much right of interpretation as the author does.

A right, certainly. As much a right, not quite. They can certainly speak about how well the creator expressed themself, or how insane the ideas they intend to express are, or the unintentional message they portray, but that doesn't mean the author's intent vanishes during literary analysis.

And again I would agree with that, but you're trying to hard to separate that work from our reality. That work is a reflection of how we see Science, Language, Society and indeed Religion and Philosophy. FFVII is said to be a work of fiction but it exists just as much as you or I because it is a part of our world.

I feel we are speaking towards entirely different methods of analysis. I suppose part of it comes from the very vague terms we're using. To clarify, when I say something is 'in' a work, I mean within the fictional universe. This is different from 'the idea' of a thing being present, where the idea and inferences of christianity cause us to infer things about a character or a religion without them being christian or christianity respectively.
Likewise, Kalm can evoke or have the idea of a German town without being one or there being such a thing as Germany 'in' FF7.

For another awkward metaphor, the real world items are needed to understand the work, like a pair of 3d glasses for a 3d movie, and the work is built to make use of these tools, but the glasses aren't 'in' the movie, but they are part of the overall experience. Does that make sense?