Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[Saints&Storms]

Yeah I was actually joking about Aeris being a ho. I have a crazy yet strange sense of humor sometimes. But I understand. I've experienced love once before and I'm not saying it's wrong for her to love Cloud I'm just thinking that it would be weird for Cloud to love a dead woman. It's like necrophilia or something lol. But like you said it isn't a realistic world with realistic ideals. It's all fantasy hence the title right? So sure maybe there is something there. But I'd like to think that Cloud at least gets something real going on before Sephiroth comes back for the 100th time and decides not to be sloppy with his fighting. Plus I'm a Tifa fan. I like her better for a woman for some reason as opposed to Aeris. I think she's great don't get me wrong but something about Tifa just seems down to earth or something.

How is any that a debate worthy response? Good for you, you see this and that like so and so, this is a debate facts are presented (hopefully) and then debunked, and so on -- that's the cycle.

This isn't a discussion on which woman you like more, its about who Cloud loves. And honestly I don't appreciate your derogatory comments on Aerith, and the Cloud and Aerith relationship in general.

Yuna kept loving Tidus after realizing he wasn't real and/or died; is she a necro? Aki loves someone who died; is she a Necro? Laguna continues to love Raine even though she's dead; is he a necro as well?

 

[Richard B Riddick]

First off, if you don't get back to my counter I'm going to take it as though you forfeiting this debate. So please, get back no matter how long my post will be.

The seriousness level of this conversation was upgraded to cage death match?

Sorry if I was overly liberal with my summary. I didn't mean to offend.

No, as stated by Square Enix Cloud and Aerith are...

"A story of a Love that could never be"
"A bitter war of love and hate"
and "Une histoire d'amour impossible" french for "an impossible love story"

All of those were said to and about Cloud and Aerith in the official commercials.

So... where is there unrequited love, again?

And, please, don't start with the commercials not being canon or true.

You're probably going to say

"Commercials show false things all the time. This doesn't mean it's true."

While commercials for items like toys or gadgets can show (sometimes) false advertisement. Games, final fantasy series to be exact, are a completely different story.

For instance, when X's commercial shows Tidus and Yuna as love interest is that false advertisement? Of course not. What about Squall and Rinoa when they're portrayed as love interests in the commercial? And, heck, let's throw in Zidane and Garnet from IX as well, shall we. Are those commercials false when they show the love between them?

Exactly, no they're not.

So, if those commercials are held as canon and true to the story why should we believe that VII's commercial is the only one that's showing "false" information.

That said, if the English commercial is false... why and how could Square Enix pump out this commercial in not only one or two, but three different commercials for several different countries??? If it held ANY false information I'm pretty dang sure SE(Soft) would have stopped the production of these commercials. And on that note, you do realize that this is their very own money and resources they're using to create these very same commercials right? They had to have known what were said in them... which means, they APPROVED of the message held within them.

Proving even more that these commercials single-handedly proved Cloud and Aerith's love before there were even a Cloti side.

Oy, I meant unrequited as in Cloud loves her, she can't love him back as she is unfortunately deceased. Sorry.

Not counting Yuna and Tidus, right? Because Tidus being dead for two years really stopped Yuna from continuing her love for him, right?

Cloud pursues Aeris while she's constantly moving away from him.

Just when Cloud might be over Aeris or may have forgotten her she appears again to remind him.

Romance can be very cruel at times, neh?

Teasing Cloud? You do realize it's Cloud that RUNS towards her, right? It was Cloud who chose to live in HER church. It was Cloud that chose to want HER forgiveness more than anything else. And it was Cloud who said to Tifa that he wants to be with Aerith in his place of supreme happiness.

Yes.

But Aeris never runs at Cloud in return. Shes always moving away from him which makes her look like a tease.

Thats another aspect of what may hint at it being unrequited love.

Aeris may be telling Cloud indirectly to forget about her and move on.

She doesn't flirt with, Zack Nomura AND Aerith have said plenty of times that Aerith is in love with Cloud and is over Zack completely. She even told Zack in Maiden of the planet that she was through with him.

"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." - DISMANTLED

See, by the time the gang gets to Zack's hometown she's already saying she's more in love with Cloud than she ever was with Zack.

Zacks closer to Aeris than Cloud is.

Zacks spending more time with Aeris than Cloud is.

If Aeris really loved Cloud and they could be together it would be... Cloud is closer to Aeris and spends more time with Aeris than she does with Zack.

I can't explain it. Seeing Aeris with Zack makes me feel uncomfortable. Its not like Aeris needs protecting in the afterlife? Shes already dead.

What is Zach doing there? I wouldnt want a guy who was a horny womanizer in life hanging around my woman in the afterlife if she were dead.

Of who? Tifa and Barret? Because that's got a better leg to stand on then Cloud/Tifa. As I stated above, Cloud and Tifa mesh together as good as nails in cereal does. Not yummy. At least with Barret/Tifa, we actually have some history. I mean, Tifa rubs Barret's feet, cooks him meals, takes care of HIS daughter as her own, and lest we forget that it was Barret and Tifa who originally lived together. And it was Barret who started the family in the first place.

I think Barret x Tifa is reflective of japanese culture.

Traditional japanese culture views wives as being sub-ordinate to men and being servants in a fashion. The thing Barret is doing by having Tifa rub his feet and cook his meals could be teaching her how to be a good and proper wife.

Its not destined to be an amorous relationship.

Tifa and Cloud weren't actually childhood friends, though. You know that right?

Childhood friends in Nibelheim?

Hmm, if it didn't happen in AC (two years after Aerith's death) and it didn't happen a year after AC (Dirge of Cerberus) and then they're still not together two years after AC (four years after VII) then I see no reason to ever believe Cloud will develop feelings for her romantically.

I mean, there's more potential of Cloud getting with some unknown woman, rather then with one of his friends in AVALANCHE.

Cloud didn't just lose his love, she was brutally murdered right before his eyes.

He would be traumatized and need time to heal even if it doesn't show on the surface.

Two years later he may not be ready for a relationship, even if he wanted one.

Whoa, wait a second there. Are you saying in so many fancy words that Tifa is better because Cloud's a man and he'll have to have sex ever so often?? That right?

What I meant was: men seem exceedingly simple on the surface. And sometimes they appear invincible or indestructible. But when it comes to emotions and feelings men can be very, very, weak.

"human condition based burden having a penis and raging hormones exacts upon a man..."

Sorry for hyperbole and confusing language above. What I meant is male gendered individuals fall in love very very easily sometimes.

And sometimes what they think is love actually turns out to be an infatuation. And so women may need to be patient with men and understand where their weaknesses lie?

Right, that's why she's jealous of Aerith. That's why she gets angry when Cloud visits Aerith's grave. That's why she's angry when she learns that Cloud's living in Aerith's church.

Nomura has said that Tifa is uneasy when it comes to Aerith when in relation to Cloud.

Its normal to be jealous when you have feelings for someone?

If Tifa didn't get upset or jealous, she wouldn't have feelings for Cloud at all?

"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." - DISMANTLED

So... what's unrequited again?

Mostly I thought it was unrequited due to Aeris being deceased.

Cloud could kneel at her grave forever, but I don't think Aeris could love him back in a way that would truly allow them to be together.

stealthed love? Cloud and Aerith both willingly dated. They're both said to be some sort of a love story... Cloud wants to be with Aerith in his promised land... and Aerith admits her love over and over again.

There's no "stealthed love" going on. Cloud and Aerith both having interest in their romantic relationship pops that bubble.

I don't think Cloud realizes Tifa may have feelings for him.

Cloud still thinks of her as a little girl and childhood friend.

But one day he could wake up and realize shes grown into a woman, and that she loves him. And that she has always stood by him and remained faithful to him and never asked him to consider her as a lover out of respect for his feelings for Aeris.

That could mean a lot to a person. That's special. Not something you find everyday.

Could be stealthed love waiting to happen.

W-h-a-t?!
Using him for materia. She's best friends with Cloud. talk about playing down other relationships Cloud has with others, man.

Wat. Best friends? Since when?

umm, Yuffie's over 18 now. Cloud's only 24 in DoC and Yuffie's 19. That's only a five year difference. Cloud and Yuffie share a lot in common. They both get motion-sickness, they're both cocky, they both cried over Aerith... and they both have the chance of going on a date and kissing.

Yuffie is too immature for romance. Yuffie is a career minded woman too busy with materia thieving and ninja life to realize the opposite sex exists.

Her mischievious, light hearted and playful manner may be what a captain serious type like Cloud needs to loosen up and enjoy life.

And Clouds seriousness in planning for the future and taking matters seriously may be exactly what a whimsical and impulsive type like Yuffie needs to balance her out.

They could compliment one another though their personalities are dissimilar.

But their relationship is more big brother little sisterish. Yuffie is probably too much of a party animal and social butterfly for Cloud to keep up with her. And Clouds tendency to brood and avoid socializing with crowds would probably wear on Yuffie's preference for action and excitement.

Besides Yuffie doesn't even look like a woman. Half the time she looks like a 16 year old asian boy.

 

[The Witch]

The seriousness level of this conversation was upgraded to cage death match?

Sorry, I just remember you saying that you weren't going to get back to posts if they were long. I think that was you.

Sorry if I was overly liberal with my summary. I didn't mean to offend.

No need to apologize. You didn't offend.

Oy, I meant unrequited as in Cloud loves her, she can't love him back as she is unfortunately deceased. Sorry.

Ah, I see. In the three years I've debated this thing I've never had someone say it's Cloud's love for Aerith that goes unrequited. So you can see why I'm so confused.

Cloud pursues Aeris while she's constantly moving away from him.

That's just not true though. Aerith is waiting in the promised land. And in the beginning of the game she chased after him.

Just when Cloud might be over Aeris or may have forgotten her she appears again to remind him.

Romance can be very cruel at times, neh?

Wait a second, so you're hung up on the idea that Cloud's trying to move on but Aerith pops up rubbing salt in his love wounds? That right?

If so, that's just not true. Like I said, Cloud is the one that decided to move into Aerith's church. It was Cloud that decided to shut himself off from the world because he lost her.

Aerith hadn't actually even showed up to Cloud until the forgotten city scene in AC. So she's not exactly "popping up" and forcing Cloud into this hurtful cycle of realizing that he's there without her.

Yes.

But Aeris never runs at Cloud in return. Shes always moving away from him which makes her look like a tease.

Thats another aspect of what may hint at it being unrequited love.

Aeris may be telling Cloud indirectly to forget about her and move on.

Yes she does. Recall the bahumut fight scene?? She's not "moving away from him" either. Where do you get that from? Aerith loves Cloud, that's been stated by Nomura and by herself. If you admit that Cloud carried an "unrequited" love for her and it's proven that Aerith loves him too. Then this debate should be over for you. You can argue that Cloud can move on all you like, and honestly, you could very well have a chance at being right, but in FFVII--the one Cloud chose to love was Aerith (at least in your opinion-which i agree with) that's what this LTD is about.

Not "who will Cloud move on with as second best debate". In FFVII, Cloud chose to love Aerith.

Zacks closer to Aeris than Cloud is.

How so? I'm going to assume you mean since they're both dead? If so, that's just not true. Zack rests in the lifestream far from Aerith. And Aerith never rests. She cannot rest.

The only time that we know of where Zack and Aerith ever interact is in Maiden of the Planet and when she tells him she's not interested in him. She even says to Zack's face that being flirty is his "bad side" and then she says she likes Cloud's simplistic ways.

Aerith:"Someone who's gotten along with so many girls can never become a lover."

Zack: "How mean. I'm kind to everyone."

Aerith: "And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud."

Zack: "Is that what you liked, Aerith?" - MP

And then right after that this happens:

Zack: "It's not over yet but, I'm going to sleep for a while. It seems there's nothing I can do just now. But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith."

Aerith: "Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zack."

She's telling him that she won't call him unless she's really lonely. they might both reside in the lifestream, but that's not romantic unless both still love each other. Which, they don't.

Zacks spending more time with Aeris than Cloud is.

No he's not. The only time we know that they spoke was when they spoke about how to help Cloud in Maiden of the planet. oh, and then the ending of AC--where they are (once again) there for Cloud.

If Aeris really loved Cloud and they could be together it would be... Cloud is closer to Aeris and spends more time with Aeris than she does with Zack.

Aerith isn't spending time with Zack, though.

I can't explain it.
Seeing Aeris with Zack makes me feel uncomfortable.

She's not with Zack, though. So why is it making you feel uncomfortable?

Its not like Aeris needs protecting in the afterlife? Shes already dead.

Umm, she wouldn't go to Zack for protection anyway

What is Zach doing there?

Helping Aerith help Cloud. You know, since he's best friends with Cloud he's there offering up his help for him. That's what he's doing there.

I wouldnt want a guy who was a horny womanizer in life hanging around my woman in the afterlife if she were dead.

As you should. But Aerith told him she wasn't interested. unless Zack rapes her (is that even possible in the lifestream? ) she's not getting with him. EVER. She's content with waiting in the lifestream til Cloud gets there.

I think Barret x Tifa is reflective of japanese culture.

Traditional japanese culture views wives as being sub-ordinate to men and being servants in a fashion. The thing Barret is doing by having Tifa rub his feet and cook his meals could be teaching her how to be a good and proper wife.

Its not destined to be an amorous relationship.

You don't know that. As long as you're playing the what-if game of Cloud moving on cuz Aerith's dead, then I can say Barret and Tifa are destined to fall in love.

Childhood friends in Nibelheim?

No.

No they weren't friends. They only spoke ONCE when they lived in Nibelheim. It wasn't until five years later that Cloud and Tifa even started to slightly hang out as comrades.

Cloud didn't just lose his love, she was brutally murdered right before his eyes.

He would be traumatized and need time to heal even if it doesn't show on the surface.

Yes, I understand that.

Two years later he may not be ready for a relationship, even if he wanted one.

Okay... but four to five years later? c'mon, what happens when that five years turn into 10 years? 10 turns into 15? What happens when 10 years down the road Cloud and Tifa's (romantic!) relationship stays exactly the same... nonexistent?

Sorry for hyperbole and confusing language above. What I meant is male gendered individuals fall in love very very easily sometimes.

And sometimes what they think is love actually turns out to be an infatuation. And so women may need to be patient with men and understand where their weaknesses lie?

Okay... I'd buy that if I didn't have multiple quotes saying Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, that her soul lives in his, and that he has undying feelings for her.

QUOTE ONE: "A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins
who's engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life (forever)." - Japanese DoC manual.

***
QUOTE TWO: "Nomura : I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carry their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day... It's relations with this church scene is... Yup. I'll leave this part to your imagination. (Laughs)" --It's a piece of magazine report from 電撃PlayStation Vol.385, 386, 387, titled "DESIGNER'S NOTE


***
QUOTE THREE: It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~translation from an interview with Nomura *

***
QUOTE FOUR: The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him.~Nomura; Distance Interview

***
QUOTE FIVE: Cloud "Aerith is here....and so is Sephiroth."
Cid "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." -FINAL FANTASY VII: Before Aerith's death

***
FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.(Tifa's profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania)


(notice all the yellow lines I bolded?)

If Cloud's love for Aerith was really just a fleeting infatuation.. would Cloud really have her engraved in his heart? Have undying feelings for her? hear her voice in his soul? develop a two person world with her? and have her own soul/consciousness live in his own?

No, that's not the making of a fleeting infatuation that Cloud will realize was some childish crush. It's the warm and fuzzy hard foundation of what makes and creates soul mates.

The only one Cloud has been said to have some sort of an infatuation for was to Tifa. Nomura called Cloud's crush on Tifa as a child DIM--that, we can all safely assume is a fleeting infatuation (that happened year and years ago, wayyy before he even met Aerith).

Its normal to be jealous when you have feelings for someone?

If Tifa didn't get upset or jealous, she wouldn't have feelings for Cloud at all?

Not entirely. But she should know that Cloud's hers if they're together.

Mostly I thought it was unrequited due to Aeris being deceased.

Cloud could kneel at her grave forever, but I don't think Aeris could love him back in a way that would truly allow them to be together.

By "in a way" you mean being able to physically interact, right? Well, no need. Much like Sephiroth can lay harm to Cloud's body during fights, Aerith has been shown to be able to touch and come in contact with Cloud physically, keeping a solid form.

Aerith loves Cloud.

She might not be able to be by his side (physically!) in the realm of the living. But her love for him is all that matters. When Cloud dies (and he will die someday) Cloud and her will be together longer than anyone is ever with anyone in the living world.

Living is a temporary state that on average is about 80 years... until you get to the promised land--which lasts forever.

I don't think Cloud realizes Tifa may have feelings for him.

Cloud still thinks of her as a little girl and childhood friend.

But one day he could wake up and realize shes grown into a woman, and that she loves him. And that she has always stood by him and remained faithful to him and never asked him to consider her as a lover out of respect for his feelings for Aeris.

Oh, dear lord. Cloud knows very well Tifa had feelings for him. In Case of Tifa (another novella by Nomura and SE) Tifa asks Cloud "Do you love me"


Tifa: “Do you love me?”

Cloud woke up, a perplexed look on his face.

“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”

“Yeah. But sometimes I don’t know how to approach her.”

“Even though we’ve been together for some time?”

“Maybe that just isn’t enough.”

“Even we aren’t enough for you?”

Cloud didn’t answer.

“Sorry for asking some strange things.”

Cloud:“Don’t apologize. It’s my problem.”

Cloud closed his eyes.

“Let’s work hard together.”

Tifa waited for his answer, though she couldn’t hear it even if she waited until the morning.

And then in advent children she says "which is it... a memory or us?" the memory being Aerith and the us being their family (Barret, Marlene, and Denzel)

So... she kinda did ask him to get over her already.

That could mean a lot to a person. That's special. Not something you find everyday.

Special like the bond Cloud and Aerith have? Like him having Aerith engraved in his heart, having undying feelings for her, and having her soul live inside of his own? That's a lot more special than anything claimed to exist between Cloud/Tifa.

Wat. Best friends? Since when?

Since the game, dude. They're all friends.

Yuffie is too immature for romance. Yuffie is a career minded woman too busy with materia thieving and ninja life to realize the opposite sex exists.

Her mischievious, light hearted and playful manner may be what a captain serious type like Cloud needs to loosen up and enjoy life.

And Clouds seriousness in planning for the future and taking matters seriously may be exactly what a whimsical and impulsive type like Yuffie needs to balance her out.

They could compliment one another though their personalities are dissimilar.

But their relationship is more big brother little sisterish. Yuffie is probably too much of a party animal and social butterfly for Cloud to keep up with her. And Clouds tendency to brood and avoid socializing with crowds would probably wear on Yuffie's preference for action and excitement.

I'm not gonna argue a romantic relationship between Cloud and Yuffie for two reasons. One, I much prefer Cloud and Yuffie as brother and sister. Two, Cloud loves Aerith... so I can't see him in love with anyone else.

Besides Yuffie doesn't even look like a woman. Half the time she looks like a 16 year old asian boy.

Why? cuz she has short hair

 

[Saints&Storms]

But Aeris never runs at Cloud in return. Shes always moving away from him which makes her look like a tease.

Thats another aspect of what may hint at it being unrequited love.

Aeris may be telling Cloud indirectly to forget about her and move on.

The fuck did I just read? Aerith? A tease? No, you truly need to re-evaluate her feelings for Cloud and her caharcter. She isn't choosing to be away from him, she was...kinda murdered... its her place as an Ancient and now as a part of the life stream -- and something that causes her great loneliness.

Well, Aerith certainly wouldn't tell Cloud to be lonely, but she isn't telling him to find a girlfriend either, she cured Clouds loneliness with his friends and by ridding him of his guilt.

Zacks closer to Aeris than Cloud is.

Zacks spending more time with Aeris than Cloud is.

If Aeris really loved Cloud and they could be together it would be... Cloud is closer to Aeris and spends more time with Aeris than she does with Zack.

I can't explain it. Seeing Aeris with Zack makes me feel uncomfortable. Its not like Aeris needs protecting in the afterlife? Shes already dead.

What is Zach doing there? I wouldnt want a guy who was a horny womanizer in life hanging around my woman in the afterlife if she were dead.

Aerith also basically told Zack to beat it in Maiden of the Planet, it's not like she's asking him to be there; Zack is kinda just clinging to her. Zacks only there more because Cloud can't be...what are you getting at?

What do you mean if she really loved him? It says so in Dismantled, Maiden of the Planet and Case of Lifestream; White.

I wouldn't say Zacks a "Horny Womanizer", that's derogatory and just...wrong. He certainly is a womanizer though.

Cloud didn't just lose his love, she was brutally murdered right before his eyes.
He would be traumatized and need time to heal even if it doesn't show on the surface.
Two years later he may not be ready for a relationship, even if he wanted one.

What about DoC? That's 3 years later?

I don't think Cloud realizes Tifa may have feelings for him.

Cloud still thinks of her as a little girl and childhood friend.

But one day he could wake up and realize shes grown into a woman, and that she loves him. And that she has always stood by him and remained faithful to him and never asked him to consider her as a lover out of respect for his feelings for Aeris.

That could mean a lot to a person. That's special. Not something you find everyday.

Could be stealthed love waiting to happen.

In CoT Tifa actually does say "Do you love me?", and Cloud gives her a dubious look in return, and then she asks Cloud if they are enough for him and he doesn't answer...?

What could be and what is; Tifa/Cloud could happen but Cloud/Aerith already is.

Wat. Best friends? Since when?

She and Cloud hugged each other at Aerith's death and she cried on his shoulder and got him to take a day off in AC (something no one else could do); I'd say they are at least best-friends :/

Yuffie is too immature for romance. Yuffie is a career minded woman too busy with materia thieving and ninja life to realize the opposite sex exists.

Her mischievious, light hearted and playful manner may be what a captain serious type like Cloud needs to loosen up and enjoy life.

And Clouds seriousness in planning for the future and taking matters seriously may be exactly what a whimsical and impulsive type like Yuffie needs to balance her out.

They could compliment one another though their personalities are dissimilar.

But their relationship is more big brother little sisterish. Yuffie is probably too much of a party animal and social butterfly for Cloud to keep up with her. And Clouds tendency to brood and avoid socializing with crowds would probably wear on Yuffie's preference for action and excitement.

She's hardly got Materia on the mind when she goes for a kiss with Cloud on the Gondola at Gold Saucer, and she doesn't seem to immature in DoC, she's just silly. I am actually insulted to see my favorite character sort of demonized >>

I don't think someone who is immature could be leader of Intelligence and Espionage,

I could say the same thing about Tifa; She is too immature, she has a 'Knight in Shining' armor fantasy stuck in her head, too girlish for love or real romance.

She can't embrace Clouds anti-social ways, this is proven when she lectures him for not coming to her and/or friends with his problems or letting people in or answering the phone. As well as not embracing his quirks such as his childish ways, at which she laughs.

Besides Yuffie doesn't even look like a woman. Half the time she looks like a 16 year old asian boy.

What. The. Hell?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/yuffieac.jpg/




This looks like a boy to you? We must be on different planets, because last time I checked, that girl had worlds volumes of sex-appeal, enough to be kidnapped by a lecher like The Don.

That's hardly a reason why Cloud and Yuffie can't be together, even if it had credibility >.>

 

[Ilyena]

The warnings in this thread are getting redundant so I'm only going to say this once. Please try and be respectful to each other when posting your arguments. There's no reason for swearing at and/or belittling one another. If being civil is too much trouble then please refrain from posting. Thanks.

 

[soldier first class]

I feel like this debate is being thrown into something much deeper than what it was intended to be. Technically FFVII wasn't based around a story of love like FFVIII. But we seem to think that's where all of this is going. What I'm going to say is purely my own opinion and my own feelings about this love triangle business. I'm a realist, therefore I think Cloud should forget about Aeris. Maybe not forget but move on rather like most sane people would do. Aeris needs to stop picking at Cloud from the world of the dead or whatever. She's getting a little creepy and makes me wonder what the point of dieing is when you can still talk and see people as if they were really there? I would love for Cloud to get with Tifa. I really would. I think those two would be perfect. Why? Because she balances Cloud out. She straightens him up when he needs a little help. She's there for him. The looks that she gives him in the movie, you can tell she still has feelings for him. Why is everyone bringing up Yuffie I have no idea. Yuffie isn't even interested in guys probably. I think she's a lesbian lol. Actually even if she isn't I don't think she would be with Cloud. It just feels wrong to me on so many different levels. But who knows. (don't even think about it SE). Now those are just my feelings, thoughts, and opinions from what I've seen in the story's plot thus far. That's the best way I can sum all of this up.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

Sorry, I just remember you saying that you weren't going to get back to posts if they were long. I think that was you.

Length isn't an issue for me.

Debate a thon death matches can be troublesome for others.

I never get offended or upset. I just make everyone else upset and offended. That's usually how these things go.

No need to apologize. You didn't offend.

YaY!!

Ah, I see. In the three years I've debated this thing I've never had someone say it's Cloud's love for Aerith that goes unrequited. So you can see why I'm so confused.

Very surprising. It was the first thing that came to mind.

That's just not true though. Aerith is waiting in the promised land. And in the beginning of the game she chased after him.

In Advent Children Aeris is always moving away from Cloud...

I haven't played the other games.

Wait a second, so you're hung up on the idea that Cloud's trying to move on but Aerith pops up rubbing salt in his love wounds? That right?

If so, that's just not true. Like I said, Cloud is the one that decided to move into Aerith's church. It was Cloud that decided to shut himself off from the world because he lost her.

Aerith hadn't actually even showed up to Cloud until the forgotten city scene in AC. So she's not exactly "popping up" and forcing Cloud into this hurtful cycle of realizing that he's there without her.

But doesn't Aeris appearing suggest she can visit Cloud anytime she wants but chooses not to?

Yes she does. Recall the bahumut fight scene?? She's not "moving away from him" either. Where do you get that from? Aerith loves Cloud, that's been stated by Nomura and by herself. If you admit that Cloud carried an "unrequited" love for her and it's proven that Aerith loves him too. Then this debate should be over for you. You can argue that Cloud can move on all you like, and honestly, you could very well have a chance at being right, but in FFVII--the one Cloud chose to love was Aerith (at least in your opinion-which i agree with) that's what this LTD is about.

Not "who will Cloud move on with as second best debate". In FFVII, Cloud chose to love Aerith.

The more you post the more I think you're right about Aeris x Cloud.

I forgot the writers are japanese. And how much asians love their tragedies and unrequited love stories.

Have you seen Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? Tragic love story. House of Flying Daggers. Tragic love story. Hero. Tragic love story.

Practically every single asian love story is a massive epic tragedy.

If FF7 were written by american authors, they would try to rationalize some type of happy ending where Cloud would settle down with Tifa or Yuffie.

But considering the authors are asian, it has to be another tragic asian love story because asians never get enough of it for some reason. lol

How so? I'm going to assume you mean since they're both dead? If so, that's just not true. Zack rests in the lifestream far from Aerith. And Aerith never rests. She cannot rest.

The only time that we know of where Zack and Aerith ever interact is in Maiden of the Planet and when she tells him she's not interested in him. She even says to Zack's face that being flirty is his "bad side" and then she says she likes Cloud's simplistic ways.

Aerith:"Someone who's gotten along with so many girls can never become a lover."

Zack: "How mean. I'm kind to everyone."

Aerith: "And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud."

Zack: "Is that what you liked, Aerith?" - MP

And then right after that this happens:

Zack: "It's not over yet but, I'm going to sleep for a while. It seems there's nothing I can do just now. But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith."

Aerith: "Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zack."

She's telling him that she won't call him unless she's really lonely. they might both reside in the lifestream, but that's not romantic unless both still love each other. Which, they don't.

I wish Aeris said "I'll never call you Zack, Cloud is the only one for me".

That would have solidified it.

Aeris saying she'll only call if she gets lonely leaves a loophole there.

No he's not. The only time we know that they spoke was when they spoke about how to help Cloud in Maiden of the planet. oh, and then the ending of AC--where they are (once again) there for Cloud.

If he's telling Aeris to call him, hes exchanging more words with her than Cloud is?

Aerith isn't spending time with Zack, though.

If shes getting really lonely (which she probably is) I would guess she must be?

She's not with Zack, though. So why is it making you feel uncomfortable?

Doesn't Zack have other women to woo in the afterlife?

Why Aeris?

Umm, she wouldn't go to Zack for protection anyway

Maybe if she had a jar she couldn't open?

Helping Aerith help Cloud. You know, since he's best friends with Cloud he's there offering up his help for him. That's what he's doing there.

Maybe. I get the feeling he wants to hump Aeris' leg.

As you should. But Aerith told him she wasn't interested. unless Zack rapes her (is that even possible in the lifestream? ) she's not getting with him. EVER. She's content with waiting in the lifestream til Cloud gets there.

A lot of good looking and charismatic guys are rapists. Its plausible Zack is capable of it. You're probably right, its innocent. Zack is upset he was never able to charm Aeris and is trying to find a way to heal his injured pride--ego?

You don't know that. As long as you're playing the what-if game of Cloud moving on cuz Aerith's dead, then I can say Barret and Tifa are destined to fall in love.

I am clueless.

I would think Tifa would go for a more sporty and bishie guy.

Barrets older and has a daughter, I would think he would try for an older more mature woman who was ready to settle down and have a family life which Tifa may be too young to really consider.

No they weren't friends. They only spoke ONCE when they lived in Nibelheim. It wasn't until five years later that Cloud and Tifa even started to slightly hang out as comrades.

Really? I thought it was implied they had more of a relationship at a younger age...

Okay... but four to five years later? c'mon, what happens when that five years turn into 10 years? 10 turns into 15? What happens when 10 years down the road Cloud and Tifa's (romantic!) relationship stays exactly the same... nonexistent?

There's always Vincent, Cid, and Barret.

Vincent looks like the type of guy a typical 20-something year old woman would approach as a potential lover.

Okay... I'd buy that if I didn't have multiple quotes saying Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, that her soul lives in his, and that he has undying feelings for her.

QUOTE ONE: "A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins
who's engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life (forever)." - Japanese DoC manual.

***
QUOTE TWO: "Nomura : I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carry their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day... It's relations with this church scene is... Yup. I'll leave this part to your imagination. (Laughs)" --It's a piece of magazine report from 電撃PlayStation Vol.385, 386, 387, titled "DESIGNER'S NOTE


***
QUOTE THREE: It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~translation from an interview with Nomura *

***
QUOTE FOUR: The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him.~Nomura; Distance Interview

***
QUOTE FIVE: Cloud "Aerith is here....and so is Sephiroth."
Cid "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." -FINAL FANTASY VII: Before Aerith's death

***
FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.(Tifa's profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania)


(notice all the yellow lines I bolded?)

If Cloud's love for Aerith was really just a fleeting infatuation.. would Cloud really have her engraved in his heart? Have undying feelings for her? hear her voice in his soul? develop a two person world with her? and have her own soul/consciousness live in his own?

No, that's not the making of a fleeting infatuation that Cloud will realize was some childish crush. It's the warm and fuzzy hard foundation of what makes and creates soul mates.

The only one Cloud has been said to have some sort of an infatuation for was to Tifa. Nomura called Cloud's crush on Tifa as a child DIM--that, we can all safely assume is a fleeting infatuation (that happened year and years ago, wayyy before he even met Aerith).

I want to say it being engraved on Cloud's heart is a bad translation or symbolic meaning. I'm guessing its accurate though.

This is confusing: As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him.~Nomura; Distance Interview

Not entirely. But she should know that Cloud's hers if they're together.

Yes.

By "in a way" you mean being able to physically interact, right? Well, no need. Much like Sephiroth can lay harm to Cloud's body during fights, Aerith has been shown to be able to touch and come in contact with Cloud physically, keeping a solid form.

Aerith loves Cloud.

She might not be able to be by his side (physically!) in the realm of the living. But her love for him is all that matters. When Cloud dies (and he will die someday) Cloud and her will be together longer than anyone is ever with anyone in the living world.

Living is a temporary state that on average is about 80 years... until you get to the promised land--which lasts forever.

For some reason Cloud and Aeris don't have a normal relationship. Even if they can interact physically something is preventing them from having their time together?

Its like Aeris is in prison and Cloud can only visit her once every 2 years. Then when he sees her she's walking away from him with Zack following her. Seems unfair, doesn't it?

Oh, dear lord. Cloud knows very well Tifa had feelings for him. In Case of Tifa (another novella by Nomura and SE) Tifa asks Cloud "Do you love me"

Tifa: “Do you love me?”

Cloud woke up, a perplexed look on his face.

“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”

“Yeah. But sometimes I don’t know how to approach her.”

“Even though we’ve been together for some time?”

“Maybe that just isn’t enough.”

“Even we aren’t enough for you?”

Cloud didn’t answer.

“Sorry for asking some strange things.”

Cloud:“Don’t apologize. It’s my problem.”

Cloud closed his eyes.

“Let’s work hard together.”

Tifa waited for his answer, though she couldn’t hear it even if she waited until the morning.

And then in advent children she says "which is it... a memory or us?" the memory being Aerith and the us being their family (Barret, Marlene, and Denzel)

So... she kinda did ask him to get over her already.

The first part says "do you love me".

The second says "do you love marlene".

That's somewhat ambiguous. If Cloud was half asleep he may have thought she meant Marlene all along... Being half asleep, half awake and incoherent does little for accuracy's sake also.

Special like the bond Cloud and Aerith have? Like him having Aerith engraved in his heart, having undying feelings for her, and having her soul live inside of his own? That's a lot more special than anything claimed to exist between Cloud/Tifa.

That's the cool thing about plot twists. You don't see them coming.

Tifa is too....... quiet to be a love interest though. She needs to be loud and crazy like Yuffie. Or, be more open and speak her mind. Just being emo and hoping Cloud notices her isn't very sexy.

Since the game, dude. They're all friends.

Ic.

I'm not gonna argue a romantic relationship between Cloud and Yuffie for two reasons. One, I much prefer Cloud and Yuffie as brother and sister. Two, Cloud loves Aerith... so I can't see him in love with anyone else.

Yuffie seems like someone who would be a fun sister to have.

Why? cuz she has short hair

Physically, there isn't much about her that screams: WOMAN.

She's androgynous enough to pass for male gendered.

A lot of men probably wouldn't notice her gender if she dressed non gender specific and didn't say anything.

The fuck did I just read? Aerith? A tease? No, you truly need to re-evaluate her feelings for Cloud and her caharcter. She isn't choosing to be away from him, she was...kinda murdered... its her place as an Ancient and now as a part of the life stream -- and something that causes her great loneliness.

Well, Aerith certainly wouldn't tell Cloud to be lonely, but she isn't telling him to find a girlfriend either, she cured Clouds loneliness with his friends and by ridding him of his guilt.

Its bad enough when you miss someone and you constantly thing about them & can't get your mind off them.

Doesn't it seem cruel for Aeris to re-appear when Cloud's trying to get his head straight?

I almost forgot! Double suicides are big in japan. When a japanese guy and japanese woman love one another, japanese consider it romantic for them to both commit suicide.

It may be that Cloud x Aeris is an implied double suicide and that Cloud is implied to eventually kill himself to join Aeris in the afterlife. I can't say for certain.

It seems to be called shinju: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinjū

Maybe if someone from japan were here they could comment...

Aerith also basically told Zack to beat it in Maiden of the Planet, it's not like she's asking him to be there; Zack is kinda just clinging to her. Zacks only there more because Cloud can't be...what are you getting at?

What do you mean if she really loved him? It says so in Dismantled, Maiden of the Planet and Case of Lifestream; White.

I wouldn't say Zacks a "Horny Womanizer", that's derogatory and just...wrong. He certainly is a womanizer though.

The symbolism. In AC Aeris is walking with Zack. They're both walking in the opposite direction of Cloud. Why not walk in Cloud's direction and kick Zack to the curb while Aeries is at it?

The symbolism and body language could matter. Not to pull CSI nonsense out of my ass but there you have it.

Zack the unhorny womanizer ey? I can dig it.

What about DoC? That's 3 years later?

I have yet to play DoC or CoT.

In CoT Tifa actually does say "Do you love me?", and Cloud gives her a dubious look in return, and then she asks Cloud if they are enough for him and he doesn't answer...?

What could be and what is; Tifa/Cloud could happen but Cloud/Aerith already is.

Aye, this.

She and Cloud hugged each other at Aerith's death and she cried on his shoulder and got him to take a day off in AC (something no one else could do); I'd say they are at least best-friends :/

Yuffie got Cloud to take a day off in AC? I'm not remembering that...

She's hardly got Materia on the mind when she goes for a kiss with Cloud on the Gondola at Gold Saucer, and she doesn't seem to immature in DoC, she's just silly. I am actually insulted to see my favorite character sort of demonized >>

I don't think someone who is immature could be leader of Intelligence and Espionage,

I could say the same thing about Tifa; She is too immature, she has a 'Knight in Shining' armor fantasy stuck in her head, too girlish for love or real romance.

She can't embrace Clouds anti-social ways, this is proven when she lectures him for not coming to her and/or friends with his problems or letting people in or answering the phone. As well as not embracing his quirks such as his childish ways, at which she laughs.

I still need to play DoC and the other expansion games.

Cloud didn't have a date with ever member of AVALANCHE that night.

The storylines other than Aeris were quasi "WHAT IF" storylines that show what might have happened if Cloud had chosen someone other than Aeries to go out with. They never actually occurred, I'm thinking.

Yuffie trying to cop a kiss is probably just a stepping stone to getting her hands on the bulge in Cloud's pants--containing his materia. I doubt her sheltered existence on an island provided her with much in the way of love experience or knowledge. Cloud would probably be the first boy she had ever kissed.

Intelligence and Espionage are small roles in a small group.

Very sorry if it seems like I'm demonizing your favorite character. I'm irreverent and disrespectful towards characters even I love. I will try to be nicer.

What. The. Hell?

This looks like a boy to you? We must be on different planets, because last time I checked, that girl had worlds volumes of sex-appeal, enough to be kidnapped by a lecher like The Don.

That's hardly a reason why Cloud and Yuffie can't be together, even if it had credibility >.>

She hasn't filled out. She lacks the curves of a woman; still a baby really.

Based on appearance, I'm more tempted to pinch her cheeks and remark on how cute and adorable she is than to consider initiating romance of some type.

Her face and body are androgynous like Mulan. She could probably pass for a guy if she made the effort.

She also looks a bit underfed like someone whose nutritional requirements are not being met.

I would pinch her cheeks and get her food--STAT.

 

[The Witch]

I feel like this debate is being thrown into something much deeper than what it was intended to be.

How? This thread was created to debate this subject though.

Technically FFVII wasn't based around a story of love like FFVIII. But we seem to think that's where all of this is going.

Again, this thread is supposed to deal with the love triangle aspect of FFVII.

What I'm going to say is purely my own opinion and my own feelings about this love triangle business. I'm a realist, therefore I think Cloud should forget about Aeris. Maybe not forget but move on rather like most sane people would do.

Wait a minute. So do you think the spouses of dead soldiers are insane for not moving on? That's so wrong, man.

Aeris needs to stop picking at Cloud from the world of the dead or whatever. She's getting a little creepy and makes me wonder what the point of dieing is when you can still talk and see people as if they were really there?

Aerith doesn't "pick on Cloud" either. It's Cloud that runs towards her, as I've already said. If you read my post you'd see that I provided proof that Cloud is the one running towards her. He was the one that decided to run and live in the solitude of her church(his promised land), it was Cloud that said he wanted her forgiveness more than anything else in the world.

You know what's creepy? Tifa supposedly having sucha a great love for Cloud but she let him drown in mako while she ran away?? and then a week later when she wakes up the very first words she speaks weren't "WHERE'S CLOUD!" or anything like it, but rather "I'm hungry." Would Aerith had done that? No. What's creepy is that Tifa didn't care about Cloud until she found out that he had a chance of being a big strong hero.

I would love for Cloud to get with Tifa. I really would. I think those two would be perfect. Why? Because she balances Cloud out. She straightens him up when he needs a little help. She's there for him.

She doesn't balance Cloud out, though. They're incompatible. It's Aerith that gets Cloud to forgive himself. It's Aerith's church Cloud runs to for comfort. Obviously in Cloud's opinion he sees Aerith as his perfect other. And like I said, Cloud and Aerith are said to be "perfect for each other", their stars are perfect for each other and that they have an affinity, and that her death makes that marriage/love prediction all the more sad because it can't happen.

The looks that she gives him in the movie, you can tell she still has feelings for him.

But the point of the matter is... does Cloud have feelings for her? I don't think so.


EDIT: GETTING BACK TO YOUR POST NOW RIDDICK!

In Advent Children Aeris is always moving away from Cloud...

I haven't played the other games.

You haven't played FINAL FANTASY VII?

But doesn't Aeris appearing suggest she can visit Cloud anytime she wants but chooses not to?

She can, it was Cloud's guilt preventing her from appearing. It's only in the forgotten city that Cloud's guilt can't keep Aerith out. Still, it's said that Cloud heard Aerith's whisper even though he couldn't see her. So, Aerith is trying to reach him.

The more you post the more I think you're right about Aeris x Cloud.

Haha well, thanks I guess.

I forgot the writers are japanese. And how much asians love their tragedies and unrequited love stories.

Have you seen Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? Tragic love story. House of Flying Daggers. Tragic love story. Hero. Tragic love story.

Practically every single asian love story is a massive epic tragedy.

If FF7 were written by american authors, they would try to rationalize some type of happy ending where Cloud would settle down with Tifa or Yuffie.

But considering the authors are asian, it has to be another tragic asian love story because asians never get enough of it for some reason. lol

Yeah, they love tragic love stories.

I wish Aeris said "I'll never call you Zack, Cloud is the only one for me".

That would have solidified it.

Aeris saying she'll only call if she gets lonely leaves a loophole there.

"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." - DISMANTLED

Cloud is the woman's(Aerith's) friend, lover (koibito)---he is a symbol for something important, an existence that she must protect. - case of lifestream:white (this takes place during Advent children)

That should be enough to prove she's not in love with Zack. There's no loophole. It's Aerith's cute bubbly way of turning Zack down in a way as nice and kind as possible. If it left a loophole it wouldn't have made Zack frown with sadness. Zack knows Aerith has moved on.

If he's telling Aeris to call him, hes exchanging more words with her than Cloud is?

No, he's not. That convo took place two years before AC, when Cloud and Aerith start talking.

If shes getting really lonely (which she probably is) I would guess she must be?

Since she still loves Cloud, I'm guess she hasn't called Zack. nor will she. We can't say Aerith loves Zack when we have solid proof that she loves Cloud in the latest installments.

Doesn't Zack have other women to woo in the afterlife?

Why Aeris?

Cuz she's gorgeous. But even he knows Aerith has moved on.

A lot of good looking and charismatic guys are rapists. Its plausible Zack is capable of it. You're probably right, its innocent. Zack is upset he was never able to charm Aeris and is trying to find a way to heal his injured pride--ego?

I'd say possible... but Zack seems to accept that Aerith loves Cloud now.

Really? I thought it was implied they had more of a relationship at a younger age...

Nope. Tifa herself says she and Cloud didn't even know each other that well.

I want to say it being engraved on Cloud's heart is a bad translation or symbolic meaning. I'm guessing its accurate though.

Well, it's one of two translations. The one I gave you is the Japanese direct translation. The english one is:

"A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who Cloud would never forget."

This is confusing: As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him.~Nomura; Distance Interview

Why is that confusing? It says Cloud doesn't see Aerith because he feels her presence but rather, he sees her because her consciousness lives on inside of him.

Yes.

Glad we agree.

.

Why did you just answer that section with period?

For some reason Cloud and Aeris don't have a normal relationship. Even if they can interact physically something is preventing them from having their time together?

Its like Aeris is in prison and Cloud can only visit her once every 2 years. Then when he sees her she's walking away from him with Zack following her. Seems unfair, doesn't it?

Of course, they don't have a "nomral" relationship. She's dead. So of course it won't be normal in the way you think. But the love----that will still be there.

And it used to be Cloud's guilt that prevented them for coming in contact with each other... however, since she healed his guilt there's nothing stopping them now. And in fact, at the end of AC during the credits Cloud stops at a flower field where Aerith is shown to be waiting. In a special feature on the DVD, we hear Cloud talking to all of his friends VIA his cell phone while driving to the flower field. We hear their convo from both sides during his ride. But when Cloud's motorcycle suddenly stops at the very same field Aerith was shown at, we hear the last phone call from a third party-stance, as if there's one more person with Cloud. And since we don't see Cloud traveling with anyone else when he arrives at the field, one can say it's logically Aerith that is there with him, hence why we can't hear both sides of the last convo.

The first part says "do you love me".

The second says "do you love marlene".

That's somewhat ambiguous. If Cloud was half asleep he may have thought she meant Marlene all along... Being half asleep, half awake and incoherent does little for accuracy's sake also.

Tifa got scared of what Cloud's answer could be so she switched it to Marlene, hoping to avoid what she thought to be a no to her "do you love me" question.

That's the cool thing about plot twists. You don't see them coming.

Tifa is too....... quiet to be a love interest though. She needs to be loud and crazy like Yuffie. Or, be more open and speak her mind. Just being emo and hoping Cloud notices her isn't very sexy.

I agree. She needs to get closure about the subject finally. But as shown in CoT, I don't think she ever will. :/

Ic.

Sorry, I just don't know how to say that Cloud and Yuffie are friends, it's just always been implied

Its bad enough when you miss someone and you constantly thing about them & can't get your mind off them.

Doesn't it seem cruel for Aeris to re-appear when Cloud's trying to get his head straight?

Why is it cruel? If not for Aerith appearing to Cloud, he would have never forgiven himself. If not for Aerith helping Cloud through the fight during the buhamat battle, Cloud would have died in his mega flare. If not for Aerith appearing to Cloud to save him from falling to hades at the end of FFVII, he would have died.

Aerith appears to Cloud because Cloud wants it because Cloud needs it. :C

The symbolism. In AC Aeris is walking with Zack. They're both walking in the opposite direction of Cloud. Why not walk in Cloud's direction and kick Zack to the curb while Aeries is at it? The symbolism and body language could matter. Not to pull CSI nonsense out of my ass but there you have it.

Because they're both dead, and heading into the lifestream after helping Cloud.

I have yet to play DoC or CoT.

Well, in both they're not together romantically.

 

[Six]

Wait a minute. So do you think the spouses of dead soldiers are insane for not moving on? That's so wrong, man.

In not any way, shape, or form, are Cloud and Aerith said to me "more" than just friends, let alone "spouses", so to assume that's what he meant by saying he thinks Cloud should move on, is a bit OTT if you ask me... After all, that's what you would do as friends, and seeing as Cloud showed no real interest to the women, I don't see how it's even logical to compare it to army men and spouses.

You know what's creepy? Tifa supposedly having sucha a great love for Cloud but she let him drown in mako while she ran away?? and then a week later when she wakes up the very first words she speaks weren't "WHERE'S CLOUD!" or anything like it, but rather "I'm hungry." Would Aerith had done that? No. What's creepy is that Tifa didn't care about Cloud until she found out that he had a chance of being a big strong hero.

How on earth did she let him drown in Mako and when did she run away? Do you know how strong Mako is portrayed to be? They were all surprised they even survived the fall when they both fell in to the mako.

I think it's really unrealistic to expect you'd scream out your worries after being out for a week... "Where's Cloud" would NOT make sense and would be very cliche. Who knows what's going on in her mind, but to say that Aerith wouldn't have done it does not make sense in the slightest. If it would have been Aerith the actors would've probably had her say the exact same. Seeing the game 'wasn't originally about a love triangle', but yes, I do know what we're discussing here, gotta stay realistic though.

You don't always have to voice out how you feel. Just because you know and feel something, it doesn't always have to be shared with the rest of the world Knowing Tifa, she's more of a thinker than a 'blurt it out' kinda girl.

Tifa isn't that shallow, it's the people that make her out to seem that way. If she really only cared about 'a strong hero' why would she stick by him like she did? She stuck by him because she knows how he is, and because he wasn't acting like himself, if she really only cared about what he could've been THAT alone would've been too much effort on her part. Think about it.

She doesn't balance Cloud out, though. They're incompatible. It's Aerith that gets Cloud to forgive himself. It's Aerith's church Cloud runs to for comfort. Obviously in Cloud's opinion he sees Aerith as his perfect other. And like I said, Cloud and Aerith are said to be "perfect for each other", their stars are perfect for each other and that they have an affinity, and that her death makes that marriage/love prediction all the more sad because it can't happen.

....Erm.

"For the one I love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come." - pg. 394(General header for the section Cloud and Tifa are featured in).

That screams they need one another, aka balance each other out.

But the point of the matter is... does Cloud have feelings for her? I don't think so.

Why else would he say "I think I lost some of that weight, all of that dilly-dallying."? Obviously he sees that Tifa seeing him the way he was upset her, he's trying to make a change, take her advice and move on before what he's 'always had' won't be there anymore.

I just wanted to point these little things out, 'cause I strongly disagreed. As always.

CloudxTifa ♥ Etc.

 

[Terra Branford]

Cali:

That was actually soldier first class saying he wouldn't read/reply to my post 'cause it was too long.

soldier first class
Its cool if you don't read it, it was directed at another person anyways.

In not any way, shape, or form, are Cloud and Aerith said to me "more" than just friends, let alone "spouses", so to assume that's what he meant by saying he thinks Cloud should move on, is a bit OTT if you ask me... After all, that's what you would do as friends, and seeing as Cloud showed no real interest to the women, I don't see how it's even logical to compare it to army men and spouses.

Firstly, it does not say they are spouses, that is true. But it does say there is more to them than friends. Aerith said she loves Cloud (more than Zack, if that will be brought up again) and Cloud, books and FF7 creators have said Cloud has undying feelings for Aerith. He's also the only one, besides Yuffie, to show more than just "friendship grief" when Aerith dies. I only saw two characters cry when she died: Cloud and Yuffie. That there shoes how his emotions greatly differed from the others.

Cali quotes a few things that show they are far more than just "friends":

QUOTE ONE: "A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins
who's engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life (forever)." - Japanese DoC manual.

***
QUOTE TWO: "Nomura : I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carry their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day... It's relations with this church scene is... Yup. I'll leave this part to your imagination. (Laughs)" --It's a piece of magazine report from 電撃PlayStation Vol.385, 386, 387, titled "DESIGNER'S NOTE


***
QUOTE THREE: It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~translation from an interview with Nomura *

***
QUOTE FOUR: The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him.~Nomura; Distance Interview

***
QUOTE FIVE: Cloud "Aerith is here....and so is Sephiroth."
Cid "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul." -FINAL FANTASY VII: Before Aerith's death

***
FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.(Tifa's profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania)

If he was just a friend to her or saw her that way, why is it that he out of his many friends is the only one seeing a dead woman, having her engraved in his heart and soul, or have her consciousness live inside him *and more*?
But if she's just a friend, why is Cloud the only one feeling this way? Why not Barret, Cid, Vincent, Yuffie, Red XIII or Tifa? What they felt was friendship, what Cloud felt was more.

That's certainly more than friendship.

Also.

She wasn't saying they were spouses. The example had been given to show that despite Aerith being dead Cloud still loves her and doesn't "have" to move on, or that the "sane people" move on when their one true love dies. She used the soldier example because a lot of women/men who lose their loved ones or spouses, but do not move on from their true love because love lasts even in death.

Its very logical actually, and a sound comparison.

 

[The Witch]

In not any way, shape, or form, are Cloud and Aerith said to me "more" than just friends, let alone "spouses", so to assume that's what he meant by saying he thinks Cloud should move on, is a bit OTT if you ask me...

... I never said they were spouses, though? I brought army wives/husbands up because the person had said:

"Maybe not forget but move on rather like most sane people would do."

Which is why I asked them... are you saying the army wives/husbands are insane for not moving on if their spouse dies?

but of course you would think that's over the top... you believe Cloud "loves" Tifa. But, had Aerith lived Cloud and Aerith would have definitely gotten married.

Omega Page 151, the marked tidbit explaining CS's last fortune telling.
The last fortune telling from Cat Sith No. 1.
After solving the puzzle about Cat Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity.

The result of it turns out "Aerith-san's star and Cloud-san's star! They promise a great future!" After that, it will become a sad prediction if we get to know what would happen afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope.....perhaps.
Caption:
Cat Sith's lines which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding now makes it more painful.

Sorry you think I'm over the top about this. :/


And you're kinda wrong about this part:

In not any way, shape, or form, are Cloud and Aerith said to me "more" than just friends,

Cuz... Cloud is said to be Aerith's koibito. The japanese word for lover/sweetheart. Clotis even said that in this sentence:
"She's like a mother, a koibito, and a close ally in battle." it was declaring Tifa to be Cloud's koibito, aka "lover" but that's just not true because Cloud's name isn't mentioned. so I'm going with the Clotis translation of what koibito means. So... by their standards (and I think you used this same quote for the very same thing before).... Cloud is Aerith's lover.

Cloud and Aerith are said to be "a love..." in all three commercials. SE has said they have an affinity and wedding.

So... technically, Cloud and Aerith are very much so more than friends and are a lot like the relationship between someone enlisted in the military and when one sadly ends up dying. :/

If we're going there... it's Cloud and Tifa who are said to be nothing more than friends. And if we're gonna go even further, it's Tifa who is said to be like a woman who has been left behind by a man.

After all, that's what you would do as friends,

You're missing the point that Cloud and Aerith aren't just friends. They might be "just friends" to you, but I'm proving that they're not "just friends". They're each other's friend and lover.

And like you said, if they were "just friends" Cloud should be able to just "move on"... right? in yet, he does the exact opposite. Instead of "moving on" like a "normal" friend would do Cloud visits her church in secret, calls her church HIS place, says a child is brought to him by her, moves into her church when he's dying, seeks her forgiveness (he didn't seek out Zack's forgiveness even though they are just friends) he wants to meet her in his promised land, and his suffering in loneliness comes to a swift end when he suddenly realizes that Aerith is also there with him. Oh, and lest we forget how his promised land is that very same church. That's not things just friends do to each other.

In FFVII, Cloud doesn't treat Aerith like just a friend, either. I'll prove it below.

and seeing as Cloud showed no real interest to the women, I don't see how it's even logical to compare it to army men and spouses.

When he first meets her he says:

"She’s a girl with impressive eyes. "
&
"If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase."

Both of those brief sentences enforce the fact that Cloud is obviously quite struck by her appearance, which suggests physical attraction. I don't remember ever hearing anything about Cloud noticing Tifa's looks, do you?

Also, in Cosmo Canyon Cloud starts to say "But I'm... we're here for you right?" that right there shows who he has feelings for.

And then later, after Aerith dies, Cloud says this:
"Aerith used to smile like a flower, all the time... But, Aerith won't smile anymore. I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again. - DISMANTLED

Like I've said before, Cloud's comparing her smile to that of a flower--an object that is used to compare one's beauty in literature. He then mentions how he'll never see that smile again, which suggests he misses it which also means he liked/cherished that attribute of her. Then a bit further in that same sentence he says he won't hear her innocent laugh ever again. The use of language and words Cloud is using suggests he cherishes her.

And how can he not have an interest in her when he became her bodyguard because she offered him a date for payment? I should mention that during this time, he forced Tifa to practically beg for him to even stick around and even then he still wanted pay in cold hard cash.

So, this jack-wagon of a man who takes only money to do jobs suddenly accepts a date from a strange girl he thinks has impressive eyes and a smile he likes... for no cash at all but rather for a date... and I'm supposed to believe Cloud isn't at least attracted to her yet?

That. doesn't. add. up.

It's Tifa Cloud has shown no interest in. Except for that dim crush he had 7 years before the start of VII. If he had any romantic feelings for her to think he'd admit them after the 11 years of them being friends!

How on earth did she let him drown in Mako and when did she run away?

When Cloud hands Sephiroth the black materia. The crater starts to fall apart, and instead of even trying to get to Cloud, she runs off and saves her self (along with the others)

Do you know how strong Mako is portrayed to be? They were all surprised they even survived the fall when they both fell in to the mako.

Wrong part of the game. that's not the scene I'm referring to.

I think it's really unrealistic to expect you'd scream out your worries after being out for a week... "Where's Cloud" would NOT make sense and would be very cliche.

As if Tifa wanting a knight in shining armor... isn't cliche? or when Marlene is kidnapped by Loz and when Cloud arrives she has just enough strength to lift her self and say "Marlene" and then fall back dramatically?

Who knows what's going on in her mind,

it should be something about the love of her life possibly being dead... not about food.

but to say that Aerith wouldn't have done it does not make sense in the slightest.

Because... she literally died for him and she gave up her freedom for Marlene just so Marlene could be safe.


That was where Aerith hesitated. Will she let all humans die or was she going to avoid such a disaster in exchange for her life... But she never did think about it and was already prepared. When she did hesitate about leaving Cloud in sorrow, she would think about how it wouldn't save her companions or the people of the world. She had already made up her mind. There was no other choice. It was all for Cloud too. -maiden of the planet

Knowing Cloud would be safe was what kept her on track. So yes, I have reason to believe that Aerith's selfless ways would have concluded in her dying trying to prevent Cloud from being left behind.

If it would have been Aerith the actors would've probably had her say the exact same.

Doubt it.

Seeing the game 'wasn't originally about a love triangle', but yes, I do know what we're discussing here, gotta stay realistic though.

I am staying realistic. I'm using quotes, scenes, and interviews to reinforce my arguments.

You don't always have to voice out how you feel. Just because you know and feel something, it doesn't always have to be shared with the rest of the world Knowing Tifa, she's more of a thinker than a 'blurt it out' kinda girl.

When someone you love was left at a place where it was crumbling around him, where poisonous liquids was about to drown him--that seems like the golden moment to voice your concerns about HIS well being rather than your own self hunger.

Tifa isn't that shallow, it's the people that make her out to seem that way. If she really only cared about 'a strong hero' why would she stick by him like she did? She stuck by him because she knows how he is, and because he wasn't acting like himself, if she really only cared about what he could've been THAT alone would've been too much effort on her part. Think about it.

I have thought about it. And it is quite shallow. She didn't ever think about Cloud until she thought he could be a hero. Sure, after she got to know Cloud after FFVII she grew to be friends but at the time of their promise she only asked him to come and save her if he was a hero. That is very immature and shallow.

....Erm.

That screams they need one another, aka balance each other out.

Why does all of that only get an erm

That page isn't just about Cloud/tifa. THIS is also on that page about love

So... does it scream Cloud and Aerith need each other,too? Actually, like I said above. Cloud says to Aerith:

"But I'm... we're here for you right?" in cosmo canyon when Aerith is sad and feels alone. I think it's obvious who Cloud wants to be there for.

Why else would he say "I think I lost some of that weight, all of that dilly-dallying."?

Because... he spoke with Aerith, realized she didn't blame him, and he was able to forgive himself.

Obviously he sees that Tifa seeing him the way he was upset her,

so, why did he move out and live in the solitude of Aerith's church behind Tifa's back? he must have known that would hurt her. but he does it anyway?

he's trying to make a change, take her advice and move on before what he's 'always had' won't be there anymore.

He's trying to better himself by not believing he'll fail his friends.

Firstly, it does not say they are spouses, that is true. But it does say there is more to them than friends. Aerith said she loves Cloud (more than Zack, if that will be brought up again) and Cloud, books and FF7 creators have said Cloud has undying feelings for Aerith. He's also the only one, besides Yuffie, to show more than just "friendship grief" when Aerith dies. I only saw two characters cry when she died: Cloud and Yuffie. That there shoes how his emotions greatly differed from the others.

Yes! well said. Her death and how Cloud acts shows his feelings.

If he was just a friend to her or saw her that way, why is it that he out of his many friends is the only one seeing a dead woman, having her engraved in his heart and soul, or have her consciousness live inside him *and more*?
But if she's just a friend, why is Cloud the only one feeling this way? Why not Barret, Cid, Vincent, Yuffie, Red XIII or Tifa? What they felt was friendship, what Cloud felt was more.

Yes, exactly that, sis.

She wasn't saying they were spouses. The example had been given to show that despite Aerith being dead Cloud still loves her and doesn't "have" to move on, or that the "sane people" move on when their one true love dies. She used the soldier example because a lot of women/men who lose their loved ones or spouses, but do not move on from their true love because love lasts even in death.

Its very logical actually, and a sound comparison.

Haha, yes, that's it exactly. Thank you for saying that better.

 

[Six]

I don't know why you two are on my back about me saying that I said Cali said they were spouses. I read the posts. I know what she said. She gave an example about the men in the army and their wives, and if something were to happen to them if they should just give up on them to.

I thought that comparison was ridiculous. You cannot expect a person to grief forever, you, (the one being dead) wouldn't want that for them either. That's why I said what I said about the reference Cali made, because it doesn't make sense to make a comparison with two people that are actually involved, and two people that just met.

---

In FFVII, Cloud doesn't treat Aerith like just a friend, either. I'll prove it below.

He does treat her like just a friend. He feels so much guilt and grief because it was him that promised to take care of her, he promised her mother he'd get her back safely, none of the others did. Barret feels the same way about what she did for Marlene, he feels guilty in a way. So no, this does not prove anything.

---

When Cloud first meets her, (FFVII) speaking, you can basically tell her nothing, and to get lost. What you provided are quotes from outside, or added to the FFVII story line, not in game. NOT the one I played at least.

Also, a guy can be stunned by your physical looks, that doesn't mean he's attracted 'in that way' to how your personality is.

Also, in Cosmo Canyon Cloud starts to say "But I'm... we're here for you right?" that right there shows who he has feelings for.

What, slipping on a line? He spend quite a while with her alone, and just then started to have her tag along with the whole group, yeah that shows how much he loves her, for sure. Come on now...

----

The next quote you added, about her smiling like a flower, once again, see above. Also not mentioned in the Final Fantasy dialogue that I played. Never seeing her smile again, yes, he did say that.

Tbh, all I have to say to him missing it and being heartbroken. No shit.

Cloud's an heartless asshole, but he's not that heartless, it was clear that during that time he developed that kinda relationship with anyone, he would've done the same for Tifa, the same for Cid, hell, probably even Barret because of the things that team has went through by that time.

So, this jack-wagon of a man who takes only money to do jobs suddenly accepts a date from a strange girl he thinks has impressive eyes and a smile he likes... for no cash at all but rather for a date... and I'm supposed to believe Cloud isn't at least attracted to her yet?

That. doesn't. add. up.

It's Tifa Cloud has shown no interest in. Except for that dim crush he had 7 years before the start of VII. If he had any romantic feelings for her to think he'd admit them after the 11 years of them being friends!

That comes back to us disagreeing on it being an actual "agreement nod" which you know my thoughts on, so I will leave it at that.

Tifa has shown interest, what you are forgetting is that he left for SOLDIER, and she had no idea where she was. You say that you think they'd be together by now, but honestly, that makes no sense. If you have someone that's shy, and someone thinking they're not good enough, that makes COMPLETE sense of them not being at that yet.

Wrong part of the game. that's not the scene I'm referring to.

Wasn't the wrong part, I was giving another example.

When Cloud hands Sephiroth the black materia. The crater starts to fall apart, and instead of even trying to get to Cloud, she runs off and saves her self (along with the others)

And her convincing him otherwise goes in vain. *rolls eyes* Because... It makes more sense to run off and get yourself kid, rather then making sure you're safe and going to look for Cloud later. (Shrugs)

---

As if Tifa wanting a knight in shining armor... isn't cliche? or when Marlene is kidnapped by Loz and when Cloud arrives she has just enough strength to lift her self and say "Marlene" and then fall back dramatically?

She got slammed through a friggin bench. I honestly just feel like you're nit picking on the creator's parts on how they made her act and move, because that's kinda childish to me. Can't she be worried about the kid? But Aerith is like the biggest heroine for sacrificing herself for Marlene's safety? Tifa at least did her best to try and keep Marlene safe too, although lucky for Aerith that they weren't looking for Marlene whenever they took Aerith instead.

---

I'm honestly not even gonna take serious or respond to what you said about the food part. Trying to stay respectful and I think you're being ridiculous with the "I'm hungry" line, blowing it way out of line.

I have thought about it. And it is quite shallow. She didn't ever think about Cloud until she thought he could be a hero. Sure, after she got to know Cloud after FFVII she grew to be friends but at the time of their promise she only asked him to come and save her if he was a hero. That is very immature and shallow.

Can you acknowledge the fact that they were kids? That is not in any way shallow, at all. She was a teenager.

so, why did he move out and live in the solitude of Aerith's church behind Tifa's back? he must have known that would hurt her. but he does it anyway?

Because he was sick. Tbh, I have read the explanation for this somewhere around, which I am too lazy to go look for right now, but he was sick and something about running away from something warm/comforting, because he's scared of losing it.

ANYWAY. Ih8u,LTDdebate. Alot. ♥

 

[Terra Branford]

I don't know why you two are on my back about me saying that I said Cali said they were spouses. I read the posts. I know what she said. She gave an example about the men in the army and their wives, and if something were to happen to them if they should just give up on them to.

I thought that comparison was ridiculous. You cannot expect a person to grief forever, you, (the one being dead) wouldn't want that for them either. That's why I said what I said about the reference Cali made, because it doesn't make sense to make a comparison with two people that are actually involved, and two people that just met.

I wasn't on your back.

I was just posting to say it was a good comparison of him not moving on or having to move on, in which she had meant it. Its not ridiculous. Read her post again -- thousands and thousands of people never move on off the person they love. Its not ridiculous to expect someone to love that someone forever...that's the point of "love". If its not strong and can be shifted to a new person, then it wasn't love in the first place, just a relationship.

When you love someone, you don't stop loving them when they are dead. That's why Cali posted the soldier/spouse question; would you tell them to move on, or tell them they are "insane" for not moving off of their loved one/s? *you was plural in that by the way *

Even if they just met, it doesn't null what she had said. People don't always fall in love after spending 5+ years with that someone, nor do they move on from their dead loved ones no matter how long they have known them *and I mean romantic love, not friendship (etc etc) love*.

 

[The Witch]

No cussing remember guys xD

I don't know why you two are on my back about me saying that I said Cali said they were spouses.

I'm not on your back this is a debate thread.

I read the posts. I know what she said. She gave an example about the men in the army and their wives, and if something were to happen to them if they should just give up on them to.

No, you're misreading what I said. Soldier first class had said Cloud should move on like any "SANE" person would do. And I said are the people who lose spouses in the military insane for not moving on? I never said Cloud and Aerith's situation were like that relationship. I'm trying to figure out why you people think those who don't move on after their spouse dies is insane?

I thought that comparison was ridiculous.

Ridiculous? Harsh, Kira.

It wasn't a comparison, though. Again, my statement was triggered by soldier first class saying that people who don't move on are insane.

You cannot expect a person to grief forever, you, (the one being dead) wouldn't want that for them either.

Of course you(the one dead) wouldn't want them to grieve forever. But this sort of thing does happen, a lot. And like I said earlier, Robin Williams' character in Good Will Hunting never moves on after his wife dies. In a matter of fact, when Matt Damon's character tells Robin W.'s char to move on already and find a new "one" Robin Williams' says "no, there is no other. only her." (or something around those lines)

Just because you and I don't agree with the situation doesn't mean that's how everyone else will deal with it. You might move on and I might move on--but that doesn't mean someone else has to.

That's why I said what I said about the reference Cali made, because it doesn't make sense to make a comparison with two people that are actually involved, and two people that just met.

They didn't "just meet" though. That's just denying any relationship between Cloud and Aerith at all. Cloud and Aerith spent weeks/months together. They went on dates. Cloud risked his freedom/life and AVALANCHE just to go and save her from Shinra. Cloud tried to tell Aerith that he would be there for her (when the heck does Cloud tell anyone he's there for them? never.)

And again, I was not comparing Cloud and Aerith to that of a military relationship. I was using a military relationship as an example of people that do not move on after their spouse dies in relation to soldier first class saying that people who are sane do move on.

He does treat her like just a friend.

Right. That's why Tifa had to practically beg for him to stick around and help and then even after she reminded him of the promise she strong-armed him into he still wanted pay to stick around and work with them. But when he meets Aerith he's ready to protect her, waste his time doing so--all for a date? Oh, I'm sorry. since you and I disagree on Cloud even accepting that date in the first place that means Cloud's doing all of that for no reason at all... for free. That shows some major interest right there.

He feels so much guilt and grief because it was him that promised to take care of her, he promised her mother he'd get her back safely, none of the others did. Barret feels the same way about what she did for Marlene, he feels guilty in a way. So no, this does not prove anything.

Are you trying to water Cloud's feelings (platonic or romantic) for Aerith down to nothing more than Cloud feeling a sense of duty to have protected her rather then he actually grew to care about her? Cuz that's how you're saying it. Cloud's guilt didn't manifest because he felt guilty he had failed Elmyra. If he did, we would have seen a focus on Cloud showing guilt and regret to Elmyra. Cloud felt guilt because he failed Aerith. Not because he failed Elmyra. Not because he promised Elmyra to protect her.

Cloud carried guilt because he failed her. Plain and simple. In CoT he tells Tifa that his problem won't be fixed because you can't make someone "unlose" their life.

I brought up guilt because we have two perfect comparisons of how Cloud treats a dead friend.

Zack and Aerith.

With one death he feels sadness for but doesn't let it get so bad that he closes himself off from the world. With one, Cloud can't even visit the grave of x person because the pain is too too much even though he can visit his other friend's grave easily. Although Cloud feels a sense of guilt for both, only one person Cloud seeks forgiveness from. Only one person Cloud wants the forgiveness of more than anything else.

It's Aerith's grave he can't visit (while he can visit Zack's pretty easily) because his sadness is too great. It's Aerith's death that tears Cloud's heart apart (as said in Maiden and CoT). It's Aerith Cloud seeks forgiveness from, not Zack. It's Aerith's forgiveness Cloud wanted more than anything. It's Aerith's death that is so bad Cloud shuts himself off from the world.

Now, unless you believe Cloud to be gay, Cloud and Zack are obviously just two guy friends. Some would say they're the best of friends. And you claim Cloud treats Aerith like nothing more than a friend. So... if both Zack and Aerith are Cloud's friend, both he feels guilt for--why does he treat Aerith so differently?

If Cloud treated Aerith like nothing more than a friend, then why isn't he treating Zack the way he treats Aerith or Aerith the way he treats Zack?
Cloud obviously feels there's some sort of a difference between the two hence why he treats Aerith so deeply as opposed to his ways of treating Zack.

It's more than clear Cloud's pain/sadness/guilt is much much greater than his sadness/guilt for Zack, why else would we only have focus on Cloud's pain/sadness/guilt for Aerith? And again, please, don't try and pawn Cloud's feelings/pain/guilt/sadness for Aerith's death off on him failing to keep his "promise" to Elmyra. It's just not true. The focus would have been on elmyra and not Cloud and Aerith. Never do we see Cloud in AC talking about how he is guilty for failing Elmyra.

So... yes. Cloud's differing guilt for Aerith does prove he doesn't just treat her as a friend.

When Cloud first meets her, (FFVII) speaking, you can basically tell her nothing, and to get lost.

No... just no. He doesn't tell her to get lost. Those are options that Aerith haters can choose to say. But in the official book released by Square Enix Cloud buys the flower from her, which suggest the canon choices when you meet her on 9th street are all positive. It's Tifa Cloud literally just wants to run away from. I mean, she has to beg for him to help her out, she had to remind him about a promise he forgot about and even after that Cloud would only stick around if she paid him.

Now, that's not Cloud telling Tifa to get lost, but it's definitely Cloud trying to get the hell away from that bar. :/

What you provided are quotes from outside, or added to the FFVII story line, not in game. NOT the one I played at least.

So... wait a second. Official guidebooks that give a more in depth look at the storyline isn't allowed? but you just used one of those guidebooks, Kira. You literally just did, one post ago. You're picking and choosing when something can be used. It's not fair. It's very unfair, to be honest.

The guidebook I'm quoting is very much so canon. This book is the same game you played only with more details, to fill in the blanks or questions left behind after you play the game, something to add depth to the storyline.

It is canon. We have to accept that it's canon along with the facts provided in it.

Also, a guy can be stunned by your physical looks, that doesn't mean he's attracted 'in that way' to how your personality is.

Cloud obviously likes her personality, hence why he grows so close to her so quickly(as said by tifa), risks his life for her, and tells her that he'll be there for her. And if what Cloud says about Aerith's attributes means nothing... what is the point of putting it in there? and why him?

And why don't we have Cloud talking about the things he cherishes and likes about Tifa?

What, slipping on a line? He spend quite a while with her alone, and just then started to have her tag along with the whole group, yeah that shows how much he loves her, for sure. Come on now...

Slipping on a line?

Cloud's bad boy exterior shook and his true thoughts popped out when he tried to show a softer side to her after he saw Aerith sad... again, if you recall Cloud's personality, this endearing act is coming from the very same man that told his "childhood friend" that he didn't give a rat's ass for her cause with AVALANCHE, then forgot about her promise that supposedly meant so much, and then on top of that demanded pay for his work with her and the group. Don't forget how much of an ass he was to other people (telling them to blow off or he didn't care for their names and stories)

He wouldn't even stick around for free for Tifa and on top of that when Tifa says she's all alone what does Cloud say? nothing. ... and now that very same person is telling this lonely flower girl that he's there for her... and you expect me to believe Cloud is showing such a softer side to her because they're just.... friends? Er, no. That does not, and never will, make sense. ever.



What Cloud did is called a Freudian slip. He let his inner feelings show through and he stopped himself because he either was nervous or shy.

The next quote you added, about her smiling like a flower, once again, see above. Also not mentioned in the Final Fantasy dialogue that I played. Never seeing her smile again, yes, he did say that.

Again, look above. It's kinda harsh for you to not want me to use those guidebooks when it's a positive for Clourith but you may use it to prove Cloti points. :/

Tbh, all I have to say to him missing it and being heartbroken. No shit.

Again, harsh.

Cloud's an heartless asshole, but he's not that heartless, it was clear that during that time he developed that kinda relationship with anyone, he would've done the same for Tifa, the same for Cid, hell, probably even Barret because of the things that team has went through by that time.

My word... But since they're all alive we can't play the what-if game. we have to go by friends who are dead already. Aerith and Zack. And like I said a little while ago in this same post... if Aerith is just another friend, why isn't he treating Zack the same way??

I'm not going to play the what-if game.

That comes back to us disagreeing on it being an actual "agreement nod" which you know my thoughts on, so I will leave it at that.

That's a cop-out, Kira. That's just like if I blatantly ignored Tifa and Cloud sitting on the rock together at the end of the highwind scene. See how that looks? I can actually say there's no proof Tifa's heads against his shoulder because you don't have anything to prove she actually is, can't I? since that's what you're doing with Cloud NODDING his head.

Just because you deny that Cloud nodded his head doesn't mean he didn't actually nod his head. If he didn't accept the date he wouldn't have protected her, he wouldn't have become her bodyguard. He said he wanted pay, Aerith offered a date, he immediately began to act as her bodyguard. Cloud can't be her bodyguard unless he received the payment he saw fit.

Tifa has shown interest,

I don't care what or who Tifa show's interest in, though.

You say that you think they'd be together by now, but honestly, that makes no sense. If you have someone that's shy, and someone thinking they're not good enough, that makes COMPLETE sense of them not being at that yet.

It makes no sense to you, Kira.

So, when will Cloud and Tifa get together? hm? If not after 10 years. If not after supposedly being so happy together in a family many clotis believe Cloud and Tifa to be the parents of? You all claim so much foundation for a relationship between Cloud/Tifa... in yet they're not together even now? after all the "history" they had... they're still not together?

Wasn't the wrong part, I was giving another example.

why?

And her convincing him otherwise goes in vain. *rolls eyes*

Convincing him to not give black materia to Sephiroth isn't what I'm talking about. She still didn't try and get Cloud when she ran out of the area after it started to crumble.

"*rolls eyes*" <-- how disrespectful is that? I mean, for real...

She got slammed through a friggin bench. I honestly just feel like you're nit picking on the creator's parts on how they made her act and move, because that's kinda childish to me.

And calling me ridiculous and rolling your eyes at me is... what exactly?

I only brought up those two instances because you said her shouting out concern about Cloud after she wakes is cliche... well, if they didn't avoid other cliches about Tifa why do it when Cloud could very well be dead?

Can't she be worried about the kid?

Talk about missing the point. Of course she can be worried about Marlene, I'd be seriously concerned if she didn't care for Marlene. I applaud Tifa for getting the crap beaten outta herself just to protect Marlene.

But that is not the point here.

But Aerith is like the biggest heroine for sacrificing herself for Marlene's safety? Tifa at least did her best to try and keep Marlene safe too, although lucky for Aerith that they weren't looking for Marlene whenever they took Aerith instead.

It seems like you're making me out to be some fapping Aerith fangirl or like I'm Jesus-christ-erizing her or something?

When you're missing the point why I even brought that up in the first place, Kira. I brought up those two cliche moments of her wanting a knight in shining armor and then having the dramatic moment in AC, to prove that there are cliches in VII's story especially with Tifa, so there's no excuse why Tifa didn't show concern for Cloud when she woke up after Cloud could be dead.

You're whole argument was that Tifa didn't shout something about Cloud because it would be cliche... well, now what's the defending argument for Tifa?

I'll tell you what it should be. I just reread the scene and I know why she didn't do it. I can admit although Tifa's reaction was harsh I now know why she did it. But i still find it pretty wrong Barret had to be the one to bring it up. :C

I'm honestly not even gonna take serious or respond to what you said about the food part. Trying to stay respectful and I think you're being ridiculous with the "I'm hungry" line, blowing it way out of line.

I don't know why you ended that sort of harsh comment at me with a smile? That's what she says, Kira. She says "I'm hungry" as soon as she wakes up. The very fact that Cloud isn't the very first thing on her mind after Cloud could be dead proves something, okay.

How am I being ridiculous about anything? let alone this? I'm not the one who made Tifa care about her hunger more than Cloud atm, okay.

How would you feel if I kept calling you ridiculous or rolling my eyes at you? You'd feel like you were at the end of the bad stick of rudeness right? Cuz that's how you're making me feel with those belittling comments and actions, Kira.

I'm probably being sensitive sally about it, but that's how I'm taking it. :/

Can you acknowledge the fact that they were kids? That is not in any way shallow, at all. She was a teenager.

Just cuz they were kids doesn't mean it wasn't shallow. Just means because she was a child that means she has an excuse for it. I believe I even said that Tifa's changed now.

Because he was sick.

No. He got sick after he found Denzel. Cloud was visiting Aerith's church before he got sick.

Tbh, I have read the explanation for this somewhere around, which I am too lazy to go look for right now, but he was sick and something about running away from something warm/comforting, because he's scared of losing it.

That quote you're talking about is for Kingdom Hearts II.

Terra Branford, yes, well said.

 

[Six]

I am not being disrespectful towards you, Cali. I disagree with your reasonings and your claims of what's canon and what is not. You keep posting things about Cait Sith, while for all we know he was wrong.

Honestly, this isn't a debate thread if you take things so seriously... I have nothing against you personally, and I do read what you say, Cali. This is kinda why I backed out of the LTD to begin with. =/

Also, no, the quote I was providing was not from Kingdom Hearts, but to be quite frank, I don't even want to debate this anymore. I stayed out of this thread for a good reason, I do read your posts, but then when I or the OP says something it just feels like it's disregarded.

Once again, this is not in any way meant to be said with disrespect, but before that gets the better of me because of how I feel the subject is treated, I'll back out of this. For the sake of frienship > fictional pairings and for Tia's sanity.

Also, P.s note. I think I can honestly say the other party feels belittled by how you speak too, Cali. I rolled my eyes once over the subject, not at you. I honestly thought you were being ridiculous with what you said about the hunger, I didn't call you a 'name', ridiculous as in, your reasoning made NO sense to me, and I felt like you were picking apart something that's not important at all. You shouldn't have to see that as offensive, unless you're taking this WAY too seriously, and in that case, I wasn't intending to upset anyone, so... I think that answers whether or not if I was being offensive. 'Cause I honestly didn't mean it that way. I just strongly disagree.

However, enough off topic for me. That's that.

 

[The Witch]

I am not being disrespectful towards you, Cali. I disagree with your reasonings and your claims of what's canon and what is not. You keep posting things about Cait Sith, while for all we know he was wrong.

Honestly, this isn't a debate thread if you take things so seriously... I have nothing against you personally, and I do read what you say, Cali. This is kinda why I backed out of the LTD to begin with. =/

Also, no, the quote I was providing was not from Kingdom Hearts, but to be quite frank, I don't even want to debate this anymore. I stayed out of this thread for a good reason, I do read your posts, but then when I or the OP says something it just feels like it's disregarded.

Once again, this is not in any way meant to be said with disrespect, but before that gets the better of me because of how I feel the subject is treated, I'll back out of this. For the sake of frienship > fictional pairings and for Tia's sanity.

No, no no.

You can tell me I'm wrong about anything I say. I just... don't enjoy having the word ridiculous thrown at me or friends rolling their eyes towards me. It sorta sucks ye know? :/ makes ye feel all bad inside, if I make sense I mean, how can rolling eyes not be rude? But whatever, I guess I misunderstood the actions.

I can debate this subject without getting offended, though... if offensive things aren't thrown around that is.

I've been debating just fine with soldier first class and riddick and I'm not getting offended by them yet. Why? because they haven't offended me personally yet. So it's not like I'm just saying that because you're disproving something I'm saying. I'm saying I feel disrespected because of solid reasons.

But yeah, I know this thing can get heated. But I can debate without attitude. And I counter your arguments, that's all. I don't not see your comments, I counter them. That's what a debate is.

@riddick and soldier first class:

If I've given any attitude in this thread, then by all means, point me to my wrong-doing and I'll apologize.

Also, P.s note. I think I can honestly say the other party feels belittled by how you speak too, Cali.

Where? how? why? show meee no one has spoken to me about this???

I rolled my eyes once over the subject, not at you. I honestly thought you were being ridiculous with what you said about the hunger, I didn't call you a 'name', ridiculous as in, your reasoning made NO sense to me, and I felt like you were picking apart something that's not important at all. You shouldn't have to see that as offensive, unless you're taking this WAY too seriously, and in that case, I wasn't intending to upset anyone, so... I think that answers whether or not if I was being offensive. 'Cause I honestly didn't mean it that way. I just strongly disagree.

However, enough off topic for me. That's that.

Yes, you said I was ridiculous. That's calling me ridiculous. I know you disagree with my side of the argument. I know, that Kira. But I haven't exactly called something insane, ridiculous or aimed a disrespectful action towards someone. At least... I didn't think so?

I'm picking apart things because this is a debate. You tear open other people's arguments so you can win.

If I can be honest, I wasn't even going to reply to your first post in this thread because I knew something would be said and I don't want us to get bitter over this. But then I thought it'd be pretty rude to not get back to you after you took time to write that up.

but now, If you post back, I'll just not direct anything at you, that way we can avoid altercations. :/

Sorry for being disrespectful guys, I wasn't aware I was being that way. no one spoke to me about it or anything so I had no idea I was. =/ I'm still confuzzled on where I was being rude but rather than wasting people's time I'll just apologize in advance.

 

[Ilyena]

I'm going to poke my nose in for a sec just to comment on the Cait Sith thing.

When I played the game, I never actually took him seriously. I didn't really think I was supposed to. He only joined the party to spy for Shinra so I figured nothing he said was really to be trusted. And considering he was actually just a puppet controlled by Reeve, his fortune telling skills are questionable. Even when he was telling Cloud and Aerith's fortune at the Temple of the Ancients, it seemed more like he was just trying to do something nice considering all that was going on. It really all just seemed like your cookie cutter fortune cookie type stuff.

Now, I haven't read any of the books or guides that have been quoted here. I'm just commenting on it from my POV while playing the game.

 

[The Witch]

I'm going to poke my nose in for a sec just to comment on the Cait Sith thing.

When I played the game, I never actually took him seriously. I didn't really think I was supposed to. He only joined the party to spy for Shinra so I figured nothing he said was really to be trusted. And considering he was actually just a puppet controlled by Reeve, his fortune telling skills are questionable. Even when he was telling Cloud and Aerith's fortune at the Temple of the Ancients, it seemed more like he was just trying to do something nice considering all that was going on. It really all just seemed like your cookie cutter fortune cookie type stuff.

Now, I haven't read any of the books or guides that have been quoted here. I'm just commenting on it from my POV while playing the game.

Well, yeah. I can't lie, when I first played the game I thought it was some corny sappy thing they threw into the story just to sorta force the couple down my throat. I didn't actually think it had any solidity to it until I was shown one of the compilation books saying his fortunes have deep meanings behind them.

So, I understand where everyone is coming from when they find these things hard to believe.

But let's just say the fortune is wrong... I'm still pretty interested in why Square Enix made it happen for Cloud and Aerith? it could have been Cloud and Tifa--but they chose Cloud and Aerith... why?


It just seems to forshadow the romantic relationship that Cloud and Aerith had.

 

[Ilyena]

But let's just say the fortune is wrong... I'm still pretty interested in why Square Enix made it happen for Cloud and Aerith? it could have been Cloud and Tifa--but they chose Cloud and Aerith... why?

Do you mean made the fortune thing about Cloud and Aerith?

I figured it was because Aerith asked him to foretell their future or compatibility (can't remember the exact wording, it's been a while since I played the game). I just figured he was telling her what she wanted to hear like your typical carnival fortuneteller type stuff. Again, I was judging it from what I knew of Cait Sith's character. He was a spy and the cat/mog thing was controlled by Reeve at Shinra. That's why I never took any of the fortune stuff seriously.

If we were supposed to take it seriously, it seems like a huge plot failure on Square's part because of the above. Are we supposed to assume that Reeve has fortune telling abilities? I'd actually be interested in reading the bit about Cait Sith's fortunes. I'm curious now.

Either way, I'm not trying to confirm or deny either pairing. I'd like to keep all of my body parts.

 

[The Witch]

Even if you were a Cloti or Clerith you'd keep all your bodyparts. I could careless what someone believes. But if someone comes in debating I'm thinking they want to debate me as well, which means they're open to seeing whether or not they're wrong in their conclusion.

No one is gonna lose any body parts (at least by me) if they debate this.

Here's the quote about Cait Sith's fortunes having deep meanings behind them, though.

Page120, the marked one
The fortune telling with deep meaning.

Cait Sith’s divination about the direction toward Sephiroth turns out three consequences. Disregard the previous two, the noticeable one is the third result which becomes the chance for him to follow the party—“What you’re looking for would be yours, but you’ll lose something very dear.”

As the storyline moves on to the event of Forgotten City, the “something very dear” can be read as losing Aerith, and it also hint the event of Cloud’s reaching his self breakdown when the story goes to the Northern Crater.

But I'm finding the other ones now.