Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[soldier first class]

Even if you were a Cloti or Clerith you'd keep all your bodyparts. I could careless what someone believes. But if someone comes in debating I'm thinking they want to debate me as well, which means they're open to seeing whether or not they're wrong in their conclusion.

No one is gonna lose any body parts (at least by me) if they debate this.

Here's the quote about Cait Sith's fortunes having deep meanings behind them, though.

Page120, the marked one
The fortune telling with deep meaning.

Cait Sith’s divination about the direction toward Sephiroth turns out three consequences. Disregard the previous two, the noticeable one is the third result which becomes the chance for him to follow the party—“What you’re looking for would be yours, but you’ll lose something very dear.”

As the storyline moves on to the event of Forgotten City, the “something very dear” can be read as losing Aerith, and it also hint the event of Cloud’s reaching his self breakdown when the story goes to the Northern Crater.

But I'm finding the other ones now.

I'm simply with everyone who thinks that Cait Sith isn't really a fortune teller. I mean think about it for a second. He's a doll and he's controlled by a businessman no less. How could this be accurate?

 

[Terra Branford]

I'm simply with everyone who thinks that Cait Sith isn't really a fortune teller. I mean think about it for a second. He's a doll and he's controlled by a businessman no less. How could this be accurate?

Well...considering the book says it was a fortune telling with deep meaning, it is as it says it is. Lastly, his body is still capable of predicting the future/giving fortune to others. Just because he's controlled by a living person doesn't negate the fortune itself or the meaning he gave them. :/

 

[The Witch]

I'm simply with everyone who thinks that Cait Sith isn't really a fortune teller. I mean think about it for a second. He's a doll and he's controlled by a businessman no less. How could this be accurate?

...

Fine.

Let's just act like these fortunes weren't correct (even though Nomura says they have deep meaning behind them)

... what would be the point in making him predict such a thing for two characters that weren't supposed to be the love interest of each other?? If it were optional, I wouldn't even be bringing this up. But it's not optional. It's canon fact that he predicts their wedding and says their stars are perfect for each other and that they have an affinity.

So, let's just both agree that he can't actually predict the future. But that still leaves the question of why did Square Enix do and say something like this about Cloud and Aerith (or any girl for that matter) if it didn't mean something significant by it?

I can't really believe that SE threw this into the game then also had Nomura speak about it if it wasn't supposed to shed light on Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

I mean, why Aerith and Cloud? they could have had it said about Cloud and Tifa? But they didn't.

So even if his predictions aren't right, I still think it's pretty significant that SE chose Cloud and Aerith to delve this far into about weddings/stars/and affinities. THAT to me is what makes this such a great fact for Clourith.

And are you still gonna get back to my last post directed at you?

Well...considering the book says it was a fortune telling with deep meaning, it is as it says it is. Lastly, his body is still capable of predicting the future/giving fortune to others. Just because he's controlled by a living person doesn't negate the fortune itself or the meaning he gave them. :/

Good point.

 

[Ilyena]

If he could really predict the future though, why would he predict a wedding between Cloud and Aerith when Aerith would be dead shortly?

I'm not saying Square didn't throw it in there for a reason nor am I trying to deny any relationship or attraction between the two of them. I just think if they wanted people to take his predictions seriously, they should have incorporated it better. It just seems like kind of a plot hole to me given that he's a mechanical thing controlled by Reeve.

But that's kind of moving off in another direction so I'll stop semi-derailing the thread.

 

[The Witch]

If he could really predict the future though, why would he predict a wedding between Cloud and Aerith when Aerith would be dead shortly?

I'm not saying Square didn't throw it in there for a reason nor am I trying to deny any relationship or attraction between the two of them. I just think if they wanted people to take his predictions seriously, they should have incorporated it better. It just seems like kind of a plot hole to me given that he's a mechanical thing controlled by Reeve.

But that's kind of moving off in another direction so I'll stop semi-derailing the thread.

No, no. I understand why you are questioning it. And for that, I can agree with you. Obviously his prediction can't be right since she died.

But like I said, I'm more-so focusing on the sole fact that SE would say something like this about Cloud and Aerith before she died in order to make her death sadder. It's like SE was trying to build up their relationship romantically so by the time she died we felt this huge impact as players and saw how sad and world shattering it was for Cloud.

Like Nomura said, the prediction of their wedding makes her death even more sad. Why is it sad? Because it can't happen now that she's dead. That, to me, says that Nomura/SE at least believed that had Aerith lived, she and Cloud would be wedded one day.

 

[soldier first class]

...

Fine.

Let's just act like these fortunes weren't correct (even though Nomura says they have deep meaning behind them)

... what would be the point in making him predict such a thing for two characters that weren't supposed to be the love interest of each other?? If it were optional, I wouldn't even be bringing this up. But it's not optional. It's canon fact that he predicts their wedding and says their stars are perfect for each other and that they have an affinity.

So, let's just both agree that he can't actually predict the future. But that still leaves the question of why did Square Enix do and say something like this about Cloud and Aerith (or any girl for that matter) if it didn't mean something significant by it?

I can't really believe that SE threw this into the game then also had Nomura speak about it if it wasn't supposed to shed light on Cloud and Aerith's relationship.

I mean, why Aerith and Cloud? they could have had it said about Cloud and Tifa? But they didn't.

So even if his predictions aren't right, I still think it's pretty significant that SE chose Cloud and Aerith to delve this far into about weddings/stars/and affinities. THAT to me is what makes this such a great fact for Clourith.

And are you still gonna get back to my last post directed at you?


Good point.

So many posts have happened I forget which one you wanted me to get back to you on.But I don't think there is really anything certain as to whether or not Cloud will hold his feelings for Aeris or not. Maybe he will turn to Tifa who knows? Plus we really haven't looked at any hard evidence as to whether or not Cloud feels the same as Tifa or Aerith. So basically it's still out in the open no matter how much "proof" we think we have. It's all theory and speculation.

 

[The Witch]

So many posts have happened I forget which one you wanted me to get back to you on.But I don't think there is really anything certain as to whether or not Cloud will hold his feelings for Aeris or not. Maybe he will turn to Tifa who knows? Plus we really haven't looked at any hard evidence as to whether or not Cloud feels the same as Tifa or Aerith. So basically it's still out in the open no matter how much "proof" we think we have. It's all theory and speculation.

Grr

Okay~

but, like, I've been giving facts to help prove that Cloud does love Aerith though. It's all in my previous posts. And the last post I directed at you is one--no, two pages behind. I quoted you with your name, so it'll be easy to see.

 

[AerithG]

Disclaimer: The following is only my personal opinion of Cloud's triangle due to facts from Final Fantasy VII, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, FFVII Dismantled, and Maiden who Travels the Planet. It is truly up to the player to decide who Cloud is paired with. Also, I apologize if any of the following was already stated. This is just what I've gathered myself.

Enjoy!

First off, let's talk about Tifa's relationship with Cloud. Tifa and her friends unintentionally ignored Cloud (Cloud was a pretty quiet, unnoticeable guy), while Cloud tried his hardest to impress her, and even wanted joined SOLDIER to try and do so. Tifa's ignored Cloud until the day their promise was made before Cloud left for SOLDIER, and the only reason she started to pay attention is due to wanting so badly to be the damsel in distress character saved by a knight in shining armor.

InIn those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him, "to be saved by a hero", was only to satisfy her childish, princess desire.

Tifa even says so herself during the Lifestream event in Final Fantasy VII

Tifa: I've known you since we were children, and I always thought we were close.
Tifa: Now that you mention it...I don't recall you ever being in my room.

So, we have now established that Tifa did not have serious feelings for Cloud, and even if she did during the events of VII and Advent Children, Cloud no longer felt the same way...

Many state that Cloud kept his promise to Tifa by saving her in the reactor in Nibelheim after being attacked by Sephiroth. However, Cloud originally wasn't the person who saved her. It was Zangan who saved her by curing her, taking her back to town, and to a doctor. Though the game says otherwise, please note that it's not exactly credible, due to many contradictions in the plot, as well as retconning.

In Final Fantasy VII, Cloud is very hasty to leave his former love, stating the following in the 7th Heaven:

Tifa: I guess not... you were in SOLDIER. Make sure to get your pay from Barrett.
Cloud: Don't worry, once I get that money, I'm outta here.

Though there's not a lot of evidence against Cloti, there, however, quite a bit of evidence towards Clerith...

When Cloud first meets Aerith, he comments on her appearance in these two quotes:

Cloud: Here, I met a flower girl. She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.

Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase.

Then he comments on how happy he is to be staying at her home here:

Cloud: It's quite amazing. Previously, I met a flowergirl, Aerith, at the 5th Street of the Slum, and now I was received at her place.

I always found it odd how Cloud would quickly accept a date with a stranger. Though this can be interpreted many ways, I always took it as him being interested in her, and thus wanting to know her better.

Let's not forget how Cloud comments during Aerith's death scene, stating the emotional following:

Shut up. The cycle of nature and you stupid plan don't mean a thing.
Aeris is gone. Aeris will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...or get angry...
What about us...what are WE (Notice the emphasis of 'we' in the game, showing that Aerith had great importance) supposed to do?
What about my pain?
My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!

Sounds like the typical heartbreak, if you ask me.

At the end of Final Fantasy VII, during the last cutscene when still inside the Crater, Cloud and Tifa have this conversation:

Cloud: I think I'm beginning to understand.
Tifa: What?
Cloud: An answer from the Planet. The Promised Land.
Cloud: I think I could meet her...there.
Tifa: Yeah, let's go meet her.

Aw, what a way to think after killing the One Winged Angel, huh, Cloud?

Also, a quote from Maiden Who Travels the Planet:

When she left her companions and headed for the Forgotten City, Cloud's heart was like an egg that was on the verge of cracking open. It wasn’t going to crack open like the way an egg hatched but, as if only the yolk was going to seep out of it. It was as if his mind was going to shatter. She wanted to comfort him. If she wasn't the last survivor of the Cetra she probably would have done so without a doubt.

Now, Aerith's love for Cloud is directly stated, as seen in the following quotes and narrations:

Aerith: At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke...his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud grows and is attracted to him.

Aerith is talking about the people she has left behind her, though her heart is in much more pain when she thinks of Cloud...

Aerith was in even greater pain when she thought about Cloud.

Note: The Maiden Who Travels the Planet is told in third person through narration.

She also had good feelings towards him. At first, she thought he somehow had some similarities to her first love. Even so, his looks, voice and personality weren't similar and he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love. Cloud was her hero and he couldn’t get away from danger. She saw him as someone full of confidence, cool and had the impression that he would disappear in an instant if she took her eyes off him. She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could. She really wanted to.

I would provide evidence from Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children (Complete), but...it's mainly jesters and assumptions (E.g Cloud's smile at the end of the film, when seeing Aerith. First awe/shock into a smile), so I really won't go into that.

Thank you to anyone who read this, and I hope you all enjoyed my thoughts about Cloud's love triangle.

 

[The Witch]

I know I enjoyed reading that. Although, I've never seen that quote about the princess dream-thing. So, you've brought something knew to me I'm happy to see more people in here debating on both sides, though.


I'm glad you brought up the reason as to why Tifa even began to notice Cloud, too. You provided quotes that I lost a while ago so thanks for sharing those.

And I really enjoyed how you brought up how, as you stated, hasty Cloud was to get outta Seventh Heaven. Cuz, it's a really good point to consider in the LTD.

But, just a heads up. Some people say the DISMNTLED quotes of Cloud taking notice to Aerith's attributes is merely done for character development due to the fact that she dies so suddenly. So, instead of it being written to portray Cloud's feelings, the writers did it to develop Aerith's character since she dies so soon in the game.

I don't personally agree with that, but that's the argument against that.

 

[AerithG]

^Thank you very much!

Oh, I did not know that about dismantled, but thank you very much for enlightening me about it.

 

[Ilyena]

/still playing devil's advocate

Quick question.

This:

Cloud: Here, I met a flower girl. She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.

I don't actually remember that quote from the game. Was that from the dismantled book as well? If it is from the game, can someone refresh my memory as to when it was said? xD

When she left her companions and headed for the Forgotten City, Cloud's heart was like an egg that was on the verge of cracking open. It wasn’t going to crack open like the way an egg hatched but, as if only the yolk was going to seep out of it. It was as if his mind was going to shatter. She wanted to comfort him. If she wasn't the last survivor of the Cetra she probably would have done so without a doubt.

Is the story told from Aerith's point of view? If it is, it could be argued that she really can't say what exactly Cloud was feeling at the time.

Many state that Cloud kept his promise to Tifa by saving her in the reactor in Nibelheim after being attacked by Sephiroth. However, Cloud originally wasn't the person who saved her. It was Zangan who saved her by curing her, taking her back to town, and to a doctor. Though the game says otherwise, please note that it's not exactly credible, due to many contradictions in the plot, as well as retconning.

I guess it can be said that Cloud saved her since he did kill Sephiroth. But I don't think he or she realized that at the time. Both of them were wounded pretty badly afterwards. And I think the game does say Zangan saved her somewhere. I think there was a letter in her room from him.

 

[AerithG]

^I definitely should have specified better, and you're right, that is from Dismantled. I accidentally left out the 'Dismanted' part.
No, The Maiden Who Travels the Planet is actually told in third person. I really should have specified better.

I'll go edit my post now! Thank you for bringing my attention this!

 

[Terra Branford]

I've never seen that quote either! Do you have a page number on when its found, maybe...?

Great job on that post AerithG, it was great!

Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase.

If only real *I mean actual existent men* (all) men said these things.

 

[AerithG]

^Thank you very much for the compliment!

I'll check it and get back to you on that one. I don't really recall the page number (I've posted loads of times concerning the Cloud Love Triangle, which is why I had these notes on hand so quickly). I'll let you know ASAP!

(Also, love your username! Terra is def. one of my top five favorite FF women)

 

[HighwindPilot]

Right. That's why Tifa had to practically beg for him to stick around and help and then even after she reminded him of the promise she strong-armed him into he still wanted pay to stick around and work with them. But when he meets Aerith he's ready to protect her, waste his time doing so--all for a date?

Eh, I really try to stay out of this thread, especially with classes in session, but this--what I feel is a misconstrued comparison--is what really bugs me.

There are clear differences in the two situations you've juxtaposed here. Notice your own use of the term "protect" in regard to Cloud accompanying Aeris after they meet. Well, what did he really have to protect Tifa from? Who's to say that Cloud wouldn't have been so willing to protect Tifa had he needed to do so? After all, he urgently reacted to the sight of her excursion to sector 6 and proceeded to do what he needed to get her out of Don's mess (I hope you, too, won't argue that this was not his priority, lol). Furthermore, when she asked for his help with Sector 7 he responded promptly with an "Of course, Tifa." No questions asked, no strings attached, and no money involved.

What we see of their circumstances in the inception seems simple enough. The general consensus between them all is that Cloud was working with Avalanche as a job so why should all these personal matters between he and Tifa factor in when Avalanche is Barret's gig (a statement from you later wrongly implies that Tifa is his repellent), Barret is his employer, and things are getting querulous between the two? And yet, even so, it was Tifa who got him to stick around and even take the job for less money than he demanded. He had a choice to go or stay, and if he were really the cold-hearted baddy people are making him out to be in the beginning, he should have had no problem leaving. By that same token if he were "all about his paypa" to start, why did he save Jessie on not one, but two separate occasions in Reactor 1?

All-in-all, I just don't see the maturation for this argument that Cloud showed such a clear attraction to Aeris because he agreed to protect her after the appearance of some shady fellow who appeared threatening to her. I also don't see why it's ignored that he told her he wanted to go to "Tifa's bar" as soon as they reached her house, and would go on to advocate doing so alone on several occasions.

With one death he feels sadness for but doesn't let it get so bad that he closes himself off from the world. With one, Cloud can't even visit the grave of x person because the pain is too too much even though he can visit his other friend's grave easily. Although Cloud feels a sense of guilt for both, only one person Cloud seeks forgiveness from. Only one person Cloud wants the forgiveness of more than anything else.

But this line of thinking suggests that there's only one degree of friendship, which isn't the case. You have your best friends, your close friends, your friends, your acquaintances, etc. In all the time that Cloud spent with Aeris (or anyone from the FF crew) vs the time he spent with Zack, you don't think there'd be a difference in his feelings for the two even if he did simply see Aeris as a friend?

I think Cloud's relationship with Zack is emphasized (in later installments because FFVII didn't make much of it) because the former was an introverted loner so the idea of him with any friend was a big deal. But even in Crisis Core how much time did the two really bond with one another in comparison to anyone from the VII group? He owed Zack his life, and that alone connected the two, but I don't see how you could make their relationship comparable to that with Aeris even if you remove romantic implications.

So, when will Cloud and Tifa get together? hm? If not after 10 years. If not after supposedly being so happy together in a family many clotis believe Cloud and Tifa to be the parents of? You all claim so much foundation for a relationship between Cloud/Tifa... in yet they're not together even now? after all the "history" they had... they're still not together?

This is...not an argument. I've honest to goodness never dabbled in LTD affairs before, but I'm pretty sure the argument has always been about who Cloud's true love is rather than who he'd end up with. The terms of their relationship throughout FFVII has always been and will always be fickle because neither can express themselves properly. When Cloud is in Kalm thinking to his self how great it would have been to have alone time with Tifa when they visited Nibelheim, he tries to confront her on her whereabouts and she dodges it. Likewise, when she tries to talk to him about feelings at Cosmo Canyon, he barely issues a response.

In my opinion, their relationship as portrayed in CoT was very realistic, which makes sense when you read the author's subtle comment about letting his own thoughts on romance & relationships slip in.

...so there's no excuse why Tifa didn't show concern for Cloud when she woke up after Cloud could be dead.

I know you said you realize why, but just so we can get rid of any more silly argument about that frivolous (yet meaningful) line again, here's the script:
Tifa "I'm hungry..."

Barret "Hey, why don't you ask?"
"About him."

Tifa "...Because I'm scared."

Barret
"Don't worry. I don't know what happened to Cloud either."
(He scratches his head.)

Barret "Guess I shouldn't tell you not to worry..."
"None of them know if he's all right or not."

Tifa "He's still... alive, right?"
(A pause. Barret nods)

Anyway, I only intended really to address that first part. #Ihatethisthread. Having said that, there's just one more thing I'd like to respond to: The now beaten to death Cait-Sith fortune teller bit. He's a toy used by Reed to spy on the group so I'm not getting this whole concession of his abilities thing. As for SE's intent with the reading in the Temple of The Ancients (which totally breaks the whole in-game reasoning trend btw), it enhances the power of her death for those who do want a relationship out of her and Cloud, and it's adhering to an Aeris-centric part of her game just before her big departure.

I don't understand why that is scrutinized vs. something as sincere as

Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."
(Young Cloud looks down.)
"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."


In a Cloud/Tifa-centric part of the game.

 

[Saints&Storms]

But this line of thinking suggests that there's only one degree of friendship, which isn't the case. You have your best friends, your close friends, your friends, your acquaintances, etc. In all the time that Cloud spent with Aeris (or anyone from the FF crew) vs the time he spent with Zack, you don't think there'd be a difference in his feelings for the two even if he did simply see Aeris as a friend?

Isn't there some saying about this? "The time you take is not equal to the love you make"? I mean it says it all, even if they knew each other for a shorter time (Then he and Zack); Cloud has Aerith in his heart. Time doesn't mean anything because by those standards -- Tifa's never spent any with Cloud pre-FFVII.

No, you see friends as one way and lovers another; Lovers are the one's singled out and differentiated amongst friends. For example Clouds said to have his own undying feeling for Aerith contrast to that her comrades had for her.

I think Cloud's relationship with Zack is emphasized (in later installments because FFVII didn't make much of it) because the former was an introverted loner so the idea of him with any friend was a big deal. But even in Crisis Core how much time did the two really bond with one another in comparison to anyone from the VII group? He owed Zack his life, and that alone connected the two, but I don't see how you could make their relationship comparable to that with Aeris even if you remove romantic implications.

I have to get in here and say; what? I'd say Aerith and Clouds relationship exceeds (both through friendship and love) that of Zack and Cloud because not only was Cloud the biggest reason Aerith went off and sacrificed herself to summon Holy and Cloud even recognizes this; with this line "I'm sure she wanted to give her life for the planet..." but on top of sacrificing herself for not only him but the whole world Aerith is the one who lives on in Clouds heart, eternally engraved in is heart. Not Zack. Aerith is the one Cloud says he remembers alot, not Zack, Aerith is the one Cloud has an undying feeling for not Zack, Aerith is the one Cloud wanted forgiveness from more than anything, Not Zack.

While Cloud and Zack are friends, that right there shows the stark difference between the relationship Aerith and has with Cloud and Zacks; Aerith and he; who are lovers and he and Zack; who are friends.

 

[Terra Branford]

*addressing certain parts*

There are clear differences in the two situations you've juxtaposed here. Notice your own use of the term "protect" in regard to Cloud accompanying Aeris after they meet. Well, what did he really have to protect Tifa from? Who's to say that Cloud wouldn't have been so willing to protect Tifa had he needed to do so? After all, he urgently reacted to the sight of her excursion to sector 6 and proceeded to do what he needed to get her out of Don's mess (I hope you, too, won't argue that this was not his priority, lol). Furthermore, when she asked for his help with Sector 7 he responded promptly with an "Of course, Tifa." No questions asked, no strings attached, and no money involved.

"Who's to say" is not definite, first of all.

I think you are confused. No one is saying Cloud does not care for Tifa, so of course he'd save her any time, like for all friends. What is being said is that he so willingly, first chance and quickly decided to help a flower-girl -- whom he described in a romantic way -- and protect her -- a stranger -- when it took a lot more convincing to help Tifa&Co.

Wasn't Sector 7 the part where he was already paid? Lastly, this was not to help Tifa (alone), but to help the people of Sector 7, and AVALANCHE/Marlene, but Don Corneo flips a trap switch:

Tifa
"They're going to wipe out the Sector 7 Slums!?"

(She turns to Cloud.)

Tifa
"Cloud, will you come with me to Sector 7?"

Cloud
"Of course, Tifa."

Cloud wouldn't say "no" to the destruction of hundreds if not thousands of innocent people, especially a child and his team.

He's not heartless.

What we see of their circumstances in the inception seems simple enough. The general consensus between them all is that Cloud was working with Avalanche as a job so why should all these personal matters between he and Tifa factor in when Avalanche is Barret's gig (a statement from you later wrongly implies that Tifa is his repellent), Barret is his employer, and things are getting querulous between the two? And yet, even so, it was Tifa who got him to stick around and even take the job for less money than he demanded. He had a choice to go or stay, and if he were really the cold-hearted baddy people are making him out to be in the beginning, he should have had no problem leaving. By that same token if he were "all about his paypa" to start, why did he save Jessie on not one, but two separate occasions in Reactor 1?

Still took money, didn't it? What is being mentioned is the fact that Cloud helped Aerith, a stranger, for free (except for the date he wanted as a prize) and continued to care and protect her like they knew each other longer. Its the fact that Cloud's protection/care for Aerith is vastly different than Tifa's that is being pointed out, and it exists.

Look, no one is saying Cloud is heartless or doesn't care for Tifa, he's just a jackass (excuse my French, but he is!). He wouldn't stand there while someone was dying (Jessie for example) or about to die (Jessie again), even before he met Aerith and started to change.

But what does saving Jessie have to do with anything that was mentioned or is being discussed...? *honest question*

All-in-all, I just don't see the maturation for this argument that Cloud showed such a clear attraction to Aeris because he agreed to protect her after the appearance of some shady fellow who appeared threatening to her. I also don't see why it's ignored that he told her he wanted to go to "Tifa's bar" as soon as they reached her house, and would go on to advocate doing so alone on several occasions.

Well, considering the game shows it and the book describes Cloud describing this stranger in a romantic, beautiful way, that's how it is. Regardless of disagreement of its (clear) meaning.

Excuse, but what does "I want to got to Tifa's bar" mean for CloudxTifa though? His employer is there and his team is there, as well as his "friends" *not quite all of them yet*. If its being ignored *haven't seen that* its because its not really...well, debatable. :/ What can be said about it for any side...?

In my opinion, their relationship as portrayed in CoT was very realistic, which makes sense when you read the author's subtle comment about letting his own thoughts on romance & relationships slip in.

I know you said you realize why, but just so we can get rid of any more silly argument about that frivolous (yet meaningful) line again, here's the script:
Tifa "I'm hungry..."

Barret "Hey, why don't you ask?"
"About him."

Tifa "...Because I'm scared."

Barret
"Don't worry. I don't know what happened to Cloud either."
(He scratches his head.)

Barret "Guess I shouldn't tell you not to worry..."
"None of them know if he's all right or not."

Tifa "He's still... alive, right?"
(A pause. Barret nods)

Um....so she and Barret is worried about Cloud. Can you please explain?
*I'm a first time debator here, so I'm not in with all that you guys have shared lol*

Anyway, I only intended really to address that first part. #Ihatethisthread. Having said that, there's just one more thing I'd like to respond to: The now beaten to death Cait-Sith fortune teller bit. He's a toy used by Reed to spy on the group so I'm not getting this whole concession of his abilities thing. As for SE's intent with the reading in the Temple of The Ancients (which totally breaks the whole in-game reasoning trend btw), it enhances the power of her death for those who do want a relationship out of her and Cloud, and it's adhering to an Aeris-centric part of her game just before her big departure.

Its been officially stated his fortune is deep in meaning and that he, in fact, has told the future. What does it matter if it was controlled by Reed? What difference does it make? Its not like a real human operating Cait Sith changes it. Real people tell fortunes all the time (well, you know what I mean!), so....

Lastly, despite you not agreeing with Cait Sith being a fortune teller, it is official stated.

I don't understand why that is scrutinized vs. something as sincere as

Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."
(Young Cloud looks down.)
"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

In a Cloud/Tifa-centric part of the game.

Sincere, right? But how is this a CloudxTifa romantic moment. Again, please explain. I'm pretty new to this

END:
If you are back in the debate, may I ask if you can direct my earlier posts to you? They were never replied to.

 

[The Witch]

There are clear differences in the two situations you've juxtaposed here. Notice your own use of the term "protect" in regard to Cloud accompanying Aeris after they meet. Well, what did he really have to protect Tifa from? Who's to say that Cloud wouldn't have been so willing to protect Tifa had he needed to do so?

No one is saying he wouldn't protect her (or anyone else for that matter) now. He had plenty to protect Tifa from. Shinra being one.

I don't really know why you brought that up.

The point of the matter is, when Tifa asked Cloud to help her and AVALANCHE out in a few missions he said no. It wasn't until she reminded him of their promise that Cloud finally agreed to help her and even after that Cloud demanded pay to continue to help her.

The point in me bringing up this issue is that Cloud, the very same man that wouldn't help his "childhood friend" for free, is now protecting a woman he's never met before from a group of elite murderers for free.

Weigh the two situations, because they're both identical. except for the fact that Cloud and Tifa knew each other and Cloud is still acting like this.

Tifa asked Cloud to help, Cloud says no, Tifa brings up promise, Cloud agrees to stay but demands pay.

As opposed to...

Cloud meets Aerith, they talk briefly, Reno and SOLDIERS arrive, Aerith asks Cloud for help, Cloud says it will cost her, she offers a date, and Cloud protects her--but since some Clotis say Cloud didn't agree to the date we can say Cloud is risking his own life/freedom for Aerith for free.

Again, no one is saying Cloud wouldn't protect his friends and family. But in the beginning of the game, Cloud was a cold, careless, jerk. He wouldn't help Tifa out for free but he would help a strange flower girl get home safely... for nothing at all. Why?

After all, he urgently reacted to the sight of her excursion to sector 6 and proceeded to do what he needed to get her out of Don's mess (I hope you, too, won't argue that this was not his priority, lol). Furthermore, when she asked for his help with Sector 7 he responded promptly with an "Of course, Tifa." No questions asked, no strings attached, and no money involved.

We don't know whether or not Cloud thought he was still gonna be paid. But I find it interesting that that scene happens after he meets Aerith. I believe Cloud started to care for the planet/people after he met Aerith. So, to me, this makes sense he'd go along with her back to a place where a little girl is located.

Like it's shown in DISMANTLED, Cloud shows concern for the planet and its people because Aerith does.

But seriously, terra brandford said it best:

I think you are confused. No one is saying Cloud does not care for Tifa, so of course he'd save her any time, like for all friends. What is being said is that he so willingly, first chance and quickly decided to help a flower-girl -- whom he described in a romantic way -- and protect her -- a stranger -- when it took a lot more convincing to help Tifa&Co.

&

Still took money, didn't it? What is being mentioned is the fact that Cloud helped Aerith, a stranger, for free (except for the date he wanted as a prize) and continued to care and protect her like they knew each other longer. Its the fact that Cloud's protection/care for Aerith is vastly different than Tifa's that is being pointed out, and it exists.

he general consensus between them all is that Cloud was working with Avalanche as a job so why should all these personal matters between he and Tifa factor in when Avalanche is Barret's gig (a statement from you later wrongly implies that Tifa is his repellent)

No, no.

Tifa "Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us."

Cloud "Sorry Tifa..."

Tifa "The Planet is dying. Slowly but surely it's dying. Someone has to do something."

Cloud "So let Barret and his buddies do something about it. It's got nothin' to do with me."

Tifa makes it very clear that she is whole-heartedly interested and founded in this group and what it's doing. This is a cause Tifa cares very much for. And when she asks Cloud to help her out, he refuses until Barret comes in with his pay, in which Cloud finally says he'll help out.

Tifa "So! You're really leaving!? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!?"

Cloud "What......?"

(there's an option here but let's just assume Cloud says "sorry" since it's the nicest thing to say)

Tifa "You forgot the promise, too."

Cloud "Promise?"

(Tifa looks down.)

Tifa "So you DID forget. Remember.... Cloud. It was seven years ago..."

*FLASHBACK TO THE PROMISE SCENE*

Tifa "You remember now? ...Our promise?"

Cloud "I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep.... the promise."

Tifa "But you got your childhood dream, didn't you? You joined SOLDIER."

(Cloud looks down.)

Tifa "So come on! You've got to keep your promise......"

(Barret climbs up the elevator.)

Barret "Wait a sec big-time SOLDIER! A promise is a promise! Here!!"

(He tosses Cloud 1500 Gil.)

Cloud "This is my pay? Don't make me laugh."

Tifa "What? Then you'll...!!"

Cloud "You got the next mission lined up? I'll do it for 3000."

So, yeah, obviously to Tifa, she is very much so apart of the group and she shows a great interest in its cause--and seeing how she brought up their promise it's safe to say that Tifa assumes that doing so should have made Cloud stay and help. But again, that fails, and Cloud says he'll help if money is involved.

Barret is his employer, and things are getting querulous between the two? And yet, even so, it was Tifa who got him to stick around and even take the job for less money than he demanded.

What? For less money? Barret walks out and throws Cloud 1500 to which Cloud says "I'll stick around for 3000", sure Barret says 2000 but it's still money he did it for. It wasn't Tifa who got him to stick around. If it was, then Cloud would have agreed to help her the moment she asked him to or the moment she brought up the promise--and most importantly, if Cloud was sticking around because Tifa got him to, he would be doing it for free.

Like Cloud did with Aerith, when she asked him to be her bodyguard.

He had a choice to go or stay, and if he were really the cold-hearted baddy people are making him out to be in the beginning, he should have had no problem leaving. By that same token if he were "all about his paypa" to start, why did he save Jessie on not one, but two separate occasions in Reactor 1?

No, Nomura has even said Cloud's a jerk. So we aren't making him out to be anything. Square Enix & Nomura are.

He had no problem leaving, either. He told Tifa immediately "It's got nothing to do with me" and before this scene he even told Barret, jesse, Biggs, and Wedge that he didn't care about --their names--their stories--or what happens to the planet and the people living on it.

And him saving Jesse in the first mission is optional with (as far as I know) no canon outcome or no evidence to support whether or not he did in fact help her. But, I'm a CloudxJesse fan so I'm gonna agree with you. He did help her out... again, he would help her out but not Tifa for free?

All-in-all, I just don't see the maturation for this argument that Cloud showed such a clear attraction to Aeris because he agreed to protect her after the appearance of some shady fellow who appeared threatening to her. I also don't see why it's ignored that he told her he wanted to go to "Tifa's bar" as soon as they reached her house, and would go on to advocate doing so alone on several occasions.

It's not just Cloud "protecting her" though. It's the fact that previous to their meeting in the church, when Cloud runs into her on the streets Cloud says she has "impressive eyes" says her smile is a "good purchase" and then falls into her church, is offered a date in return for his protection and then accepts it.

That shows attraction.

It shows Cloud's attraction for Aerith for a few reasons

• Him and Tifa are friends, or at least know each other in some way
• But he wouldn't stick around for Tifa when she asked him to
• it wasn't until Tifa reminded him of the promise, and even then he only verbally says he'll accept after Barret comes in with his money
• He demands pay for his help--his friendship with Tifa isn't enough for him to do the job for free

But then when he meets Aerith, he accepts to be her bodyguard for nothing at all (since Clotis say Cloud didn't accept the date that means he's protecting her for free, risking himself)

He wanted to go to Tifa's bar because... his pay was there. He never states why he has to. And I'm not going to make assumptions with no basis. And he told Aerith he would prefer to go on alone because he didn't want her involved in the crap he and AVALANCHE are apart of and because he didn't want her getting hurt.

But this line of thinking suggests that there's only one degree of friendship, which isn't the case. You have your best friends, your close friends, your friends, your acquaintances, etc. In all the time that Cloud spent with Aeris (or anyone from the FF crew) vs the time he spent with Zack, you don't think there'd be a difference in his feelings for the two even if he did simply see Aeris as a friend?

Oh, then that means since he and Aerith canonly only knew each other for, what, a month and two weeks as opposed to him and Zack knowing each other for a much much greater amount of time that means he should care for Zack better, right? So if both are his friends... then it still should be Zack Cloud feels more pain over.

I think Cloud's relationship with Zack is emphasized (in later installments because FFVII didn't make much of it) because the former was an introverted loner so the idea of him with any friend was a big deal. But even in Crisis Core how much time did the two really bond with one another in comparison to anyone from the VII group? He owed Zack his life, and that alone connected the two, but I don't see how you could make their relationship comparable to that with Aeris even if you remove romantic implications.

No, I'm not going to assume Cloud feels deeper platonic feelings for specific friends. All of Avalanche and Zack are his friends. He carries no greater or lesser feelings for any of them. (at least if he doesn't romantically love them, that is)

People claim Cloud sees Aerith and Zack as only friends, so, again, why the difference in how he treats/views/remembers/mourns for Aerith?

This is...not an argument. I've honest to goodness never dabbled in LTD affairs before, but I'm pretty sure the argument has always been about who Cloud's true love is rather than who he'd end up with. The terms of their relationship throughout FFVII has always been and will always be fickle because neither can express themselves properly.

Actually no, despite what you say. many Clotis claim Cloud and Tifa had sex under the highwind the night before the battle with Sephiroth. Many Clotis believe Cloud and Tifa are already in a relationship as of now.

If Cloud loves Tifa, after all the crap they've been through, they should at least be together.

When Cloud is in Kalm thinking to his self how great it would have been to have alone time with Tifa when they visited Nibelheim,

What? Quote?

Likewise, when she tries to talk to him about feelings at Cosmo Canyon, he barely issues a response.

But then he says to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon that he's there for her. Let's remember that at her death Cloud screams out for the whole world to hear him ranting on about his feelings and his pain over losing her.

How can he show outward affection like this to Aerith, a girl who he supposedly doesn't love, but can't do the same for Tifa even after all the "history" they've been through.

In my opinion, their relationship as portrayed in CoT was very realistic, which makes sense when you read the author's subtle comment about letting his own thoughts on romance & relationships slip in.

Realistic for either the making of a divorced couple or a platonic relationship between a mother and son.

CoT showed us Cloud and Tifa arguing, not talking, Tifa forcing herself to have to talk to Cloud, Tifa laughing at Cloud, Cloud keeping secrets, Tifa doubting their "family, Cloud telling her to back off when she wants to sit and chat after he visits Aerith's grave, it showed us that Tifa enjoys the mother feelings she has for Cloud.

And thanks to Nojima, we have him stating that Cloud and Tifa have problems that would exist even without geostigma and Sephiroth, he says that maybe Denzel and Marlene could make them work out those problems... and on top of Nojima saying that he says that there's the premise that "things aren't going well" between Cloud/Tifa.

So, yes, it is a very realistic portrayal of everything a romantic relationship shouldn't be.

The now beaten to death Cait-Sith fortune teller bit. He's a toy used by Reed to spy on the group so I'm not getting this whole concession of his abilities thing.

No one is saying he can really predict the future. But his fortunes do have deep meanings.

As for SE's intent with the reading in the Temple of The Ancients (which totally breaks the whole in-game reasoning trend btw), it enhances the power of her death for those who do want a relationship out of her and Cloud, and it's adhering to an Aeris-centric part of her game just before her big departure.

No... just no. :/ Back when this game was created, there were no fandoms for either. Everything they did before the game was released was done purely because Square Enix and the FF staff wanted it done.

In no way could this prediction of Cloud and Aerith's stars being perfect for each other or their wedding being predicted could be done solely to pump up Aerith's character.

They did it because they wanted to make her death a sadder event. How could it be sadder? By making this perfect relationship between her and Cloud and then killing her off. That is the sole reason why they would make a prediction like this then say this makes her death even more sad.

I don't understand why that is scrutinized vs. something as sincere as

Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."
(Young Cloud looks down.)
"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."


In a Cloud/Tifa-centric part of the game.

First off, Tifa only searches through the papers and even starts to notice him because he could have the chance of being a strong first class soldier-hero, to "satisfy" her childish-princess desire of being saved by a hero. So, I don't know how something so shallow can be sincere.

And key word there is "probably"--

Well, considering the game shows it and the book describes Cloud describing this stranger in a romantic, beautiful way, that's how it is. Regardless of disagreement of its (clear) meaning.

Yes!!

Excuse, but what does "I want to got to Tifa's bar" mean for CloudxTifa though? His employer is there and his team is there, as well as his "friends" *not quite all of them yet*. If its being ignored *haven't seen that* its because its not really...well, debatable. :/ What can be said about it for any side...?

That's what I said I'm not ignoring that. I just don't see how it's a positive, really.



End note:

Sorry for any typos, in a hurry and gotta go xDD

 

[HighwindPilot]

No one is saying he wouldn't protect her (or anyone else for that matter) now. He had plenty to protect Tifa from. Shinra being one.

I don't really know why you brought that up.

Because his initial involvement with Aeris was an arrangement to protect her. And yet I'm commonly seeing posts (including this one) which offer that that Cloud's affection for Aeris is proven by this agreement because he was otherwise ruthless. But how is this concluded by comparing his attitude towards busting his back against Shinra for a job with Eco-terrorists and protecting a girl on her way home?

As for Tifa needing protection--as you'd so rudely put--no, just no. She proved that she could hold her own just fine. She was no flower girl. And based on the game's inception alone we could see that she clearly wasn't throwing herself into the heat of every mission.

The point of the matter is, when Tifa asked Cloud to help her and
AVALANCHE out in a few missions he said no. It wasn't until she reminded him of their promise that Cloud finally agreed to help her and even after that Cloud demanded pay to continue to help her.

You're ignoring the underlying circumstance again. Tifa was not Cloud's employer, Barret was. Similarly, Tifa was not the one Cloud tussles with (contrary to your claim that he was "running from her", lol), Barret was. Up to the point at which he's raging in the basement, there's no personal stuff involved, it's business.

So why then do you continue to suggest that he neglected Tifa when their relationship was clearly not at stake? It's not like ditching Avalanche meant that he intended to neglect Tifa's feelings. They hadn't even discussed their personal matters yet. If anything, it's only once Tifa brought up their history that personal matters were interjected, but what does that prove if he would go on to stay?

The point in me bringing up this issue is that Cloud, the very same man
that wouldn't help his "childhood friend" for free, is now protecting a woman he's never met before from a group of elite murderers for free.

Weigh the two situations, because they're both identical. except for the fact that Cloud and Tifa knew each other and Cloud is still acting like this.

Lol, he was signed up with Avalanche as a job and Barret was the one paying him. It's not a matter of helping his friend; it's a matter of working alongside a friend under Barret. Why should Cloud be expected to blow up reactors and fight Shinra over something he didn't yet care about for free when there was a clear understanding between them all that it was a job and he needs to make a living? This is proven by nothing else by Tifa recalls when they reconvened: "...And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job..."

How is that at all identical with agreeing to see a girl home safely (after she inadvertently saved his life no less)?

Again, no one is saying Cloud wouldn't protect his friends and family. But in the beginning of the game, Cloud was a cold, careless, jerk. He wouldn't help Tifa out for free but he would help a strange flower girl get home safely... for nothing at all. Why?

Lol, and again with the misconstrued recount. It wasn't about helping out Tifa, you're redefining the circumstances. Yes, she brought their history into account but it's not like his desire to leave was shown to have anything to do with her. Again, if anything she's why he stayed for the job (so of course he'd still want pay) to begin with.

We don't know whether or not Cloud thought he was still gonna be paid.

Lol... Really? Really? Okay, let me to amend my previous statement to this: He agreed to help her without knowing there'd be pay involved.

But I find it interesting that that scene happens after he meets Aerith. I believe Cloud started to care for the planet/people after he met Aerith. So, to me, this makes sense he'd go along with her back to a place where a little girl is located.

I actually agree with you in that he would later go on to care for the planet due to Aeris' influence, but I don't see that here. As far back as his and Tifa's conversation in Corneo's basement we see that he's invested in the matters at hand. It's too consistent and too early to suggest that it's all because of Aeris.

No, no.

Tifa makes it very clear that she is whole-heartedly interested and founded in this group and what it's doing.

Yes, only after he'd already decided to leave, which is an issue clearly related to Barret, his employer. For the rest, see above.

...and seeing how she brought up their promise it's safe to say that Tifa assumes that doing so should have made Cloud stay and help. But again, that fails, and Cloud says he'll help if money is involved.

"No, just no." After Tifa brings up the promise their attention turns to that and Cloud says nothing to suggest that he was still going to leave. Finally, she asks him again if he'll stay and he stands there with his head down before Barret appears and Cloud implies to them both that he's agreed to stay. So, I'm sorry, how did she fail?

And no, Cloud doesn't outright say anything remotely close to that. Barret pays him for the previous mission and business matters resume between the two in which money is briefly discussed for the next job (because, yeah, that's how freelance work goes).

What? For less money? Barret walks out and throws Cloud 1500 to which Cloud says "I'll stick around for 3000", sure Barret says 2000 but it's still money he did it for.

Because it's still a job.

* I'm cutting past some stuff here, as this is beyond repetitive.

No, Nomura has even said Cloud's a jerk. So we aren't making him out to be anything. Square Enix & Nomura are.

Then they shouldn't have material in their game that contradicts their own assessments. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Cloud wasn't a cold introvert--I mean I'm pretty sure I referred to him as such in my previous post. I'm suggesting that he's not nearly bad enough to deny helping a girl who, personally, could really use his protection unless there are romantic implications.

On a side-note, I have to say that this obsession with what the developers say makes this whole thread funny (especially that canon-commercial argument) in light of Nomura's comment in Dorimaga in which he refuted the idea of a "canon" relationship.

And him saving Jesse in the first mission is optional with (as far as I know) no canon outcome or no evidence to support whether or not he did in fact help her. But, I'm a CloudxJesse fan so I'm gonna agree with you.

Uh? One of the times he helps Jesse out is in a cutscene in which no player control is possible. The other time--I haven't tested this but--I'd assume there's no way around helping her out because she opens the first door upstairs, so it's an obligatory scene.

He did help her out... again, he would help her out but not Tifa for free?

Don't fabricate a point. That wasn't to suggest anything about Tifa x Cloud, that was meant to suggest he's clearly not below helping out someone in need.

It's not just Cloud "protecting her" though. It's the fact that previous to their meeting in the church, when Cloud runs into her on the streets Cloud says she has "impressive eyes" says her smile is a "good purchase" ...That shows attraction.

Fair enough, but that's on a superficial plane and not at all what I'm concerned about. Though, it's funny, you'd think if the developers really thought any of that were truly official they'd find some way to express it in-game rather than leaving their introduction optional.

It shows Cloud's attraction for Aerith for a few reasons

• Him and Tifa are friends, or at least know each other in some way
• But he wouldn't stick around for Tifa when she asked him to
• it wasn't until Tifa reminded him of the promise, and even then he only verbally says he'll accept after Barret comes in with his money
• He demands pay for his help--his friendship with Tifa isn't enough for him to do the job for free.

Do a job for free... Lol... Stop calling it help, it's a job.


Anyway, this is where I disagree. I've broken down why but I suppose I'll reemphasize since that seems to be the thing around here:

Tifa gets Cloud a job under Barret --> Barret pays Cloud. --> Barret and Cloud fight. --> Cloud ragequits job --> Tifa interjects with personal feelings --> Cloud stays, and yes, for money because Barret is still his employer.

Had he specifically been walking out on Tifa, had Tifa made it personal before he decided to leave, or had Tifa been in some type of personal peril the way Aeris was, then I could see a case for emphasizing Cloud's difference in responses (which is why I raised the question as to whether or not he'd protect Tifa just the same). But Avalanche is ultimately what needed "help" and Tifa is not synonymous with Avalanche.

He wanted to go to Tifa's bar because... his pay was there.

He never states why he has to.

Lol, I'll refer you back to your own quote:

"We don't know whether or not Cloud thought he was still gonna be paid." So if we don't know something, how are you going to pass your conclusion off as the definite one? "No, no."

And he told Aerith he would prefer to go on alone because he didn't want her involved in the crap he and AVALANCHE are apart of and because he didn't want her getting hurt.

That's not the point. The point was that he was ready to part with her as soon as the job was done (sound familiar?) To this I ask how this is any proof that he'd been seriously interested in her by this time? She literally has to force her company on him for the two to stick together after that.

Oh, then that means since he and Aerith canonly only knew each other for, what, a month and two weeks as opposed to him and Zack knowing each other for a much much greater amount of time that means he should care for Zack better, right? So if both are his friends... then it still should be Zack Cloud feels more pain over.

You and I both know that knowing someone is not the same as spending time with someone and getting to know someone. He and Zack's relations weren't shown to be nearly as extensive as the time he spent with the others.

No, I'm not going to assume Cloud feels deeper platonic feelings for specific friends. All of Avalanche and Zack are his friends. He carries no greater or lesser feelings for any of them. (at least if he doesn't romantically love them, that is)

Okay then, this is where we differ. Growing up, I learned that a good analysis meant inferences based on the material. Just so you know, if no-one inferred anything in this debate then there'd be little argument for the LTD to begin with.

Then again, I see your line before about "safe assumptions" to know you do the same. But just as there is nothing that directly states that there's a difference in his friendships, there's nothing to suggest that there isn't, so what's wrong with the "assumption"?

Actually no, despite what you say. many Clotis claim Cloud and Tifa had sex under the highwind the night before the battle with Sephiroth. Many Clotis believe Cloud and Tifa are already in a relationship as of now.

If Cloud loves Tifa, after all the crap they've been through, they should at least be together.

This logic would be fine if a love for someone, or even a mutual love between two people, inescapably destined them for a relationship. Life proves otherwise.

What? Quote?

"When you went to Mt. Nibel then, Tifa was your guide, right?"
"Yeah.... I was surprised."
"But where was Tifa other than that?"
"...I dunno."
"It was a great place for you two to see each other
again."
"...You're right."
"Why couldn't you see each other alone?"
"...I don't know. I can't remember clearly..."
"Why don't you try asking Tifa?"
--
"Hey wake up. Wake up, Cloud!"

(The screen fades in to show Tifa standing in the room. Cloud gets out of
bed)

Cloud "Tifa..."
"When Sephiroth and I went to Nibelheim, where were you?"

Tifa "...We saw each other, right?"

Cloud "The other time."

(She crosses her arms)

Tifa "No... it was 5 years ago. I don't remember."
"But, something seems strange outside. Cloud, come quick."

And thanks to Nojima, we have him stating that Cloud and Tifa have problems that would exist even without geostigma and Sephiroth, he says that maybe Denzel and Marlene could make them work out those problems... and on top of Nojima saying that he says that there's the premise that "things aren't going well" between Cloud/Tifa.

You fail to mention that it's in that same quote from him that he indirectly professes that the story is influenced by his ideas on love and romance, which should prove that there's still romantic implications involved. Again, I don't care about their struggles, because that's not what LTD is about, or so I thought.

No... just no. :/ Back when this game was created, there were no fandoms for either. Everything they did before the game was released was done purely because Square Enix and the FF staff wanted it done.

Right, so then they're monkeys who wouldn't realize that there would be people who would fall for Cloud and Aeris? And that, likewise, there wouldn't be those who'd prefer Cloud and Tifa? Oh, gee, then I wonder why they implemented a romantic subplot at all, and made it optional to players for that matter. Lol.

But let's play it your way. It still doesn't refute that it was an Aeris-centric aspect of the game. Also she, at the very least, viewed Cloud romantically. So if nothing more it appealed to people who liked Aeris, since that was an aspect of her character.

First off, Tifa only searches through the papers and even starts to notice him because he could have the chance of being a strong first class soldier-hero, to "satisfy" her childish-princess desire of being saved by a hero. So, I don't know how something so shallow can be sincere.

That's not the sincere part, though even that obviously came to change at some point since she, again, dismisses Cloud's lack of accomplishment when the two discuss the promise in the beginning of the game.

And key word there is "probably"--

You call Cloud's slip up with "I" to "We" at Cosmo Canyon with Aeris a Freudian slip but "probably" is a means to debunk what an aspect of his "inner self" is telling Tifa? Your selectivity is astounding.

Sorry for any typos, in a hurry and gotta go xDD

Don't worry, I'm D-Gaf about typos. I do these in the AM hours so I empathize.

 

[The Witch]

Because his initial involvement with Aeris was an arrangement to protect her. And yet I'm commonly seeing posts (including this one) which offer that that Cloud's affection for Aeris is proven by this agreement because he was otherwise ruthless.

That's because he was a ruthless guy before.

But how is this concluded by comparing his attitude towards busting his back against Shinra for a job with Eco-terrorists and protecting a girl on her way home?

It's concluded from not only his refusal to help his childhood friend when she practically begs him to and then demands pay--it also comes from the fact that Nomura has called Cloud a jerk and that Cloud tells other people he doesn't care for their stories, their names, or the planet and what happens to it and its people on it.

But then suddenly, Cloud meets Aerith and he out of nowhere grows a conscious about people's safety? It's after he meets Aerith and spends a few days with her (protecting her) that Cloud says/or does something for Tifa without forcing her to practically beg or pay him (the "of course, tifa" in Don's mansion is what I'm speaking of btw)I would say that's pretty significant. (unless I somehow forgot a scene where Cloud does something like this before the don scene as well? )

As for Tifa needing protection--as you'd so rudely put--no, just no.

Saying "No, just no." isn't rude. It's me showing disagreement with what you said--as in your statement. I'm sorry if it came off as rude, though. I wasn't aware disagreeing with arguments was rude.

She proved that she could hold her own just fine. She was no flower girl. And based on the game's inception alone we could see that she clearly wasn't throwing herself into the heat of every mission.

She needed help with the Don, didn't she?

If I can be honest here, I have no idea why we're debating this part of the story. I agree, Cloud would save Tifa (or any of his friends) now. My argument is that Cloud only started to show concern for others after he met Aerith.

You're ignoring the underlying circumstance again. Tifa was not Cloud's employer, Barret was.

But Tifa was the co-pilot of that group. She was right there alongside Barret, helping out in one way or another. She herself said that she cared a lot for the cause behind AVALANCHE. It doesn't matter if Barret was the actual leader of the group. Because Tifa was just as devoted to it as Barret was. I'm a little confused at how you can deny that part of the story?

Similarly, Tifa was not the one Cloud tussles with (contrary to your claim that he was "running from her", lol), Barret was.

Tifa tags along sometimes, though. She is apart of the group, man.

Up to the point at which he's raging in the basement, there's no personal stuff involved, it's business.

But the very next scene is Cloud upstairs, where he's about to leave when Tifa rushes to him and begs him to stick around and help, he says no and Tifa (using desperate measures) brought up their promise, hoping it would be enough to make him stay... kinda like a guilt trip. Then after she reminds him of the promise he forgot about, Barret throws his pay at Cloud and Cloud finally verbally agrees to help out again... but with money as his reward too.

So why then do you continue to suggest that he neglected Tifa when their relationship was clearly not at stake?

Again, she was begging him to stick around and help. Cloud's friend or "the woman he supposedly has romantic feelings" for (a.k.a Tifa in your opinion) was asking him to stay and help and he refused. Then, Tifa decided to show emotional interest in front of Cloud, and Cloud still refused. And again, it wasn't until Tifa brought up the promise and then Barret arriving with his pay that Cloud finally verbally agreed to stay and help.

So yes, their relationship (platonic or romantic) was involved, seeing how Tifa was emotionally devoted to AVALANCHE'S cause and she emotionally showed a deep interest in the cause--hence her begging him to stay and help, hence her bringing up how he was just going to leave his childhood friend like that.

If it didn't have any relation to Tifa's own self interest for the cause, she wouldn't have tried to guilt trip him into it.

It's not like ditching Avalanche meant that he intended to neglect Tifa's feelings.

She was practically begging him to stick around and help her. Again she starts off their convo as so...

Tifa "Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us."

The moment Tifa said "I'm asking you" is when Tifa's feelings began to get involved. And even when she said that, Cloud said no to her. So he was neglecting her feelings there.

They hadn't even discussed their personal matters yet.

Again, she said "I'm asking you"--that's as personal as it gets.

If anything, it's only once Tifa brought up their history that personal matters were interjected, but what does that prove if he would go on to stay?

It proves that even after Tifa asked him to help her, he said no to her....

We're discussing how Cloud didn't help Tifa for free but would help Aerith for nothing at all. And this helps prove my point.

Lol, he was signed up with Avalanche as a job and Barret was the one paying him.

... Yes.

But it was Tifa who personally asked Cloud to help her out in which he told her no.

It's not a matter of helping his friend; it's a matter of working alongside a friend under Barret.

Either way Cloud still wasn't willing to stick beside his friend's side and help her out this once, was he? Not really. He demanded pay in order to help out with one more mission on top of her guilt tripping him.

Why should Cloud be expected to blow up reactors and fight Shinra over something he didn't yet care about for free when there was a clear understanding between them all that it was a job and he needs to make a living?

He's a mercenary. Mercenaries take jobs--any jobs. And here was a job willing to pay him AND he could be helping out his childhood friend at the same time--in yet he refused more than once to continue to do so. Cloud said it best himself, after he was going to get his pay from Barret

Cloud: "I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over... I'm outta here."

Doesn't seem like Cloud was planning on sticking around.

How is that at all identical with agreeing to see a girl home safely (after she inadvertently saved his life no less)?

wait--how did Aerith save Cloud's life after he crashed into her church? She didn't do anything to save him. He came crashing down, giving Aerith a scare, and she stayed till he woke. Cloud didn't owe anything to Aerith. If he was helping her home for free because he "owed" her he wouldn't have said "But it'll cost you" when she asked him to help her home.

Remember, this is the same girl that just two days before Cloud met on the streets and he was captivated by her eyes and smile.

Lol, and again with the misconstrued recount.

Lol Lol Lol Lol

It wasn't about helping out Tifa, you're redefining the circumstances.

But it WAS about helping out Tifa. The moment she said to Cloud "Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us." was when the circumstances switched over to something personal Tifa was seeking his help in and for.

Yes, she brought their history into account but it's not like his desire to leave was shown to have anything to do with her.

No one's saying it did have anything to do with her. But his "desire" to stay wasn't because of her alone either. Cloud likes the cash, I suppose.

Again, if anything she's why he stayed for the job (so of course he'd still want pay) to begin with.

Even after Tifa brings up the promise, it isn't until Barret comes in with Cloud's pay that Cloud finally verbally agrees. If it had been solely for Tifa, he should have said yes to helping her the moment she said "Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us." --did he, though? No. It took a lil extra somethin' for Cloud to really take the job. I'm not denying that part of it was due to Tifa asking, just saying that it wasn't solely Tifa who made him stay.

Lol... Really? Really? Okay, let me to amend my previous statement to this: He agreed to help her without knowing there'd be pay involved.

Again, Lol Lol Lol Lol

And my point to that is it's because he's spent a few days with Aerith and he finally began to show concern for the planet and people in general. I believe there's even a quote that says it's because of Aerith that Cloud starts to care for the planet.


On the request of his childhood friend Tifa, Cloud assists the anti-ShinRa organization “AVALANCHE” led by Barret. At first he has little interest in their goal of ‘protecting the planet’. But after meeting Aerith, an Ancient, and reuniting with his fated rival Sephiroth, he throws himself fully into the battle to save the planet. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania


&


Aerith, who is pursued by ShinRa for her ability to hear the voice of the planet. Cloud’s meeting with her lead him on a new path. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania


So... even if Cloud was willing to help Tifa for no money at all by that time, I think it's pretty significant that the only time he shows such a kindness in that way to her is after he meets Aerith.

I actually agree with you in that he would later go on to care for the planet due to Aeris' influence,

I'm glad we can agree.

but I don't see that here. As far back as his and Tifa's conversation in Corneo's basement we see that he's invested in the matters at hand. It's too consistent and too early to suggest that it's all because of Aeris.

On the request of his childhood friend Tifa, Cloud assists the anti-ShinRa organization “AVALANCHE” led by Barret. At first he has little interest in their goal of ‘protecting the planet’. But after meeting Aerith, an Ancient, and reuniting with his fated rival Sephiroth, he throws himself fully into the battle to save the planet. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

&

Aerith, who is pursued by ShinRa for her ability to hear the voice of the planet. Cloud’s meeting with her lead him on a new path. ~Cloud's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

The first quote says even after Cloud stayed and helped due to Tifa's request he still had little interest in their goal of protecting the planet but after meeting Aerith (and Sephiroth) he fully throws himself into the battle for the planet. The second quote says Cloud's meeting with Aerith led him on a new path, which the "new path" can be the battle for the planet.

either way, the first quote helps prove Aerith is what got him invested in the planet's safety and the people on it so early in the game.

Yes, only after he'd already decided to leave, which is an issue clearly related to Barret, his employer. For the rest, see above.

But when Tifa says to him "I'm Asking you" he couldn't stick around for her?

"No, just no." After Tifa brings up the promise their attention turns to that and Cloud says nothing to suggest that he was still going to leave.

My bad, I worded that wrong. Yeah, I agree, it is because of Tifa bringing up the promise that Cloud finally says he'll stay but he's still doing it with money involved. For Aerith, Cloud just agreed to protect her for nothing at all. Again, that's the point in all of this, remember?

Finally, she asks him again if he'll stay and he stands there with his head down before Barret appears and Cloud implies to them both that he's agreed to stay.

Whoa, there. Cloud standing there doesn't imply he's decided to stay. It shows us part of the reason why Cloud stayed. But not all of it. It was through Tifa's guilt trip about the promise that Cloud paused to think about it, and in the end the guilt trip did work. But Cloud still demanded pay on top of that. If her promise-guilt-trip had really worked and turned out to be the only reason Cloud agreed, would he really be demanding pay?

He didn't demand pay with Aerith. He just outta nowhere started to protect her.

And no, Cloud doesn't outright say anything remotely close to that. Barret pays him for the previous mission and business matters resume between the two in which money is briefly discussed for the next job (because, yeah, that's how freelance work goes).

... I think you took that statement a bit too literal. Of course Cloud doesn't say exactly what I said. He says to Barret exactly after Tifa brings up the promise: "You got the next mission lined up? I'll do it for 3000"--

* I'm cutting past some stuff here, as this is beyond repetitive.

Yeah... what parts did you cut out, though? Because in debates you're supposed to counter all of it. I'm not sure what you just skipped past. It could have been good points on my part, even.

Then they shouldn't have material in their game that contradicts their own assessments.

That's SQUARE ENIX for you. They say contradictory stuff from time to time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Cloud wasn't a cold introvert--I mean I'm pretty sure I referred to him as such in my previous post. I'm suggesting that he's not nearly bad enough to deny helping a girl who, personally, could really use his protection unless there are romantic implications.

But he would take precious school funds from a lil girl Tifa cares for?

On a side-note, I have to say that this obsession with what the developers say makes this whole thread funny (especially that canon-commercial argument) in light of Nomura's comment in Dorimaga in which he refuted the idea of a "canon" relationship.

Quote? I would love to see that. And you're right. There is no canon couple. But I love how in the beginning when VII was still being pumped out, it was Cloud and Aerith used as love interest.

If we can't use the developer's comments and statements in our debate... what should we use?

Uh? One of the times he helps Jesse out is in a cutscene in which no player control is possible. The other time--I haven't tested this but--I'd assume there's no way around helping her out because she opens the first door upstairs, so it's an obligatory scene.

Does he? I remember it being optional for all three.

Don't fabricate a point. That wasn't to suggest anything about Tifa x Cloud, that was meant to suggest he's clearly not below helping out someone in need.

He is though in the beginning.

Fair enough, but that's on a superficial plane and not at all what I'm concerned about.

Superficial? It's Cloud showing an interest in a woman's attributes. having a liking for a girls smile and eyes can help us conclude who he carries romantic feelings for.

Though, it's funny, you'd think if the developers really thought any of that were truly official they'd find some way to express it in-game rather than leaving their introduction optional.

They didn't want a buncha thought bubbles popping up every time Cloud thought something. The only other option to portray what Cloud was thinking about her was for Cloud to say it TO Aerith. Which... would be.............awkward.

Their introduction isn't optional, either the fact that the scene Cloud recalls in DISMANTLED is all positive (he buys the flower and tells her to get to safety) that means it's the canon/default choice.

Do a job for free... Lol... Stop calling it help, it's a job.

Yes... it's a job because Tifa asking him to help her out isn't enough.

Tifa gets Cloud a job under Barret --> Barret pays Cloud. --> Barret and Cloud fight. --> Cloud ragequits job --> Tifa interjects with personal feelings --> Cloud stays, and yes, for money because Barret is still his employer.

Barret : "C'mon newcomer. Follow me." (to Cloud)
Biggs : "Wow! You used to be in SOLDIER all right! ...Not
everyday ya find one in a group like AVALANCHE."

Jessie : "SOLDIER? Aren't they the enemy?"
"What's he doing with us in AVALANCHE?"

Biggs : "Hold it, Jessie. He WAS in SOLDIER."
"He quit them and now is one of us."
"Didn't catch your name..."

Cloud : "...Cloud."

Biggs : "Cloud, eh? I'm..."

Cloud
"I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over... I'm
outta here."
As you can clearly see, Cloud and Barret do not fight, nor is a fight between them the reason Cloud wants to "rage quit" the job. The moment the job begins is when Cloud declares that after the jobs over he's "outta there".

You seem to be missing my point, though. Cloud should have accepted the job and stayed for free. like he did with Aerith. After all, it was Tifa who asked him to stay. That should be enough for Cloud... like it was with him and Aerith.

Had he specifically been walking out on Tifa, had Tifa made it personal before he decided to leave, or had Tifa been in some type of personal peril the way Aeris was, then I could see a case for emphasizing Cloud's difference in responses (which is why I raised the question as to whether or not he'd protect Tifa just the same). But Avalanche is ultimately what needed "help" and Tifa is not synonymous with Avalanche.

But, again, it was Tifa who showed a personal investment and devotedness to AVALANCHE and its cause. And even after Tifa had personally asked him to stay he said no. It wasn't until the promise being brought up that Cloud finally verbally agreed.

Lol, I'll refer you back to your own quote:

"We don't know whether or not Cloud thought he was still gonna be paid." So if we don't know something, how are you going to pass your conclusion off as the definite one? "No, no."

I'm not trying to pass my conclusion off as definite. I'm just saying you shouldn't think your conclusion is definite either.

That's not the point. The point was that he was ready to part with her as soon as the job was done (sound familiar?)

Are you trying to compare the two scenes?

With AVALANCHE, Cloud says he's outta there as soon as he gets his pay. With Aerith he's outta there for her own good. Major major major difference.

Cloud says so himself he doesn't want her involved. That he doesn't want her to get hurt. He says it in the actual game and in DISMANTLED. So he's not leaving because he had no interest to help her any longer. He's leaving because it was for her own good.

Some quotes to help prove my point:

Well, it's midnight already, seems about time to leave for the 7th Street.
Aerith declared that she'll show me the way. But if I let her, it seems hard to tell who's the bodyguard. I'm gonna slip out of here.
-DISMANTLED
_____

Cloud : "How could I ask you to go along when I knew it would be dangerous?" - When Aerith meets him after he spends a night at her house

___


Aerith:"The gate to Sector 7's in there."
Cloud :"Thanks. I guess this is goodbye. You gonna be all right going home?"

____

Cloud: "Wait!
I'll go on alone! You go home!" --their date at the moogle park when they spot Tifa

____
Aerith: "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look. I'll tell Tifa about you."
Cloud:"No!! You can't!!"
Aerith: "Why?"
Cloud:"You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"
(snip)
Cloud:"But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"

____

Cloud: If only she was not involved in this battle, between me and Shinra…..
Aerith’s mother told us that she’s a foster child. And because she’s the last survival of “the Ancents,” Shinra was after her since she’s little.
So far, it seemed the Turks had never tried to forcibly take her away in violent manner. They just persistently asked for her cooperation.
But, Shinra was entirely impetuous this time.
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her……by all means! - FFVII DISMANTLED

Unlike with his association to AVALANCHE... when he was ready to quit before he even started.

You and I both know that knowing someone is not the same as spending time with someone and getting to know someone. He and Zack's relations weren't shown to be nearly as extensive as the time he spent with the others.

But, if you play and watch Crisis Core-- Zack and Cloud kinda have a bromance going on.

So... yeah...

If Aerith is just a friend to Cloud, then on that level, Zack should have more of -if not the same- of Cloud's concern/care on a platonic level. In yet... it's Aerith he continuously has his heart break over.

Okay then, this is where we differ. Growing up, I learned that a good analysis meant inferences based on the material. Just so you know, if no-one inferred anything in this debate then there'd be little argument for the LTD to begin with.

Then again, I see your line before about "safe assumptions" to know you do the same. But just as there is nothing that directly states that there's a difference in his friendships, there's nothing to suggest that there isn't, so what's wrong with the "assumption"?

Again, I'm just saying we can't claim anything about anything unless we're ready to accept what other people conclude too.

There's nothing to suggest that Cloud feels deeper platonic feelings for anyone in avalanche more than the other, unless he's obviously in love with them.

This logic would be fine if a love for someone, or even a mutual love between two people, inescapably destined them for a relationship. Life proves otherwise.

They live in a fantasy realm. They have a "family", remember. And I just stumbled across a quote about Tifa that says she has told Cloud how she feels more than once:

Although there's a lot to Tifa's character, she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times. ~Nojima; Reunion Files, pg. 20

and... they're still not together. Why?

"When you went to Mt. Nibel then, Tifa was your guide, right?"
"Yeah.... I was surprised."
"But where was Tifa other than that?"
"...I dunno."
"It was a great place for you two to see each other
again."
"...You're right."
"Why couldn't you see each other alone?"
"...I don't know. I can't remember clearly..."
"Why don't you try asking Tifa?"
--
"Hey wake up. Wake up, Cloud!"

(The screen fades in to show Tifa standing in the room. Cloud gets out of
bed)

Cloud "Tifa..."
"When Sephiroth and I went to Nibelheim, where were you?"

Tifa "...We saw each other, right?"

Cloud "The other time."

(She crosses her arms)

Tifa "No... it was 5 years ago. I don't remember."
"But, something seems strange outside. Cloud, come quick."

That's not why Tifa is "dodging" his question. She's dodging it because she can't fully explain how Cloud has memories of things he wasn't apart of. That's the whole point of that scene. To convey how Cloud's memories are messed up and aren't adding up with correct memories. Not to show... Cloud thinking it'd be great to hang with her. And back to why we originally brought that up, you said Cloud and Tifa can love each other but not get together due to being fickle or shy... but Tifa has told Cloud how she feels. Like the above quote said. "....Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times. ~Nojima; Reunion Files, pg. 20

if Tifa's expressed her feelings plainly, and Cloud feels the same way as her--what's stopping them now? the only thing that would make them not be together even after Tifa's expressed how she feels for him is if Cloud doesn't return the feelings.

You fail to mention that it's in that same quote from him that he indirectly professes that the story is influenced by his ideas on love and romance, which should prove that there's still romantic implications involved. Again, I don't care about their struggles, because that's not what LTD is about, or so I thought.

No, Nojima is saying he's not going to talk about love and marriage. You completely just turned that quote into something else, something it's not even really saying.

That doesn't mean there's romantic implications involved on both ends of the novella. Just means the writer isn't going to dive into that sort of stuff, that's all. Let's not assume we know what Nojima was meaning. All we know is that he's not going to link love and marriage into the Novella and that's all we have.

Right, so then they're monkeys who wouldn't realize that there would be people who would fall for Cloud and Aeris? And that, likewise, there wouldn't be those who'd prefer Cloud and Tifa? Oh, gee, then I wonder why they implemented a romantic subplot at all, and made it optional to players for that matter. Lol.

Did I hit a soft spot?

The date mechanism was added for replay value. They, of course, gave the option for the player, but SE seems to favor Cloud x Aerith as canon/default.

But let's play it your way. It still doesn't refute that it was an Aeris-centric aspect of the game. Also she, at the very least, viewed Cloud romantically. So if nothing more it appealed to people who liked Aeris, since that was an aspect of her character.

I think you need to reread the quote,

The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.



The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.
Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~pg. 151, FVII Ultimania Omega

the only thing it appeals to is Cloud and Aerith's compatibility and to-be-wedding they would have had if she had lived.

But let's play by your rules. You say we should dismiss this because it's done solely for Aerith because it's a "Aerith-centric" part of the game. You realize we can do that for just about anything pro-C/T, right?

That's not the sincere part, though even that obviously came to change at some point since she, again, dismisses Cloud's lack of accomplishment when the two discuss the promise in the beginning of the game.

No, she says:

Tifa: "You remember now? ...Our promise?"

Cloud: "I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep.... the promise."

Tifa:"But you got your childhood dream, didn't you? You joined SOLDIER."

(Cloud looks down.)

Tifa:"So come on! You've got to keep your promise......"
Her end of the promise of him being a soldier is still intact.

You call Cloud's slip up with "I" to "We" at Cosmo Canyon with Aeris a Freudian slip but "probably" is a means to debunk what an aspect of his "inner self" is telling Tifa? Your selectivity is astounding.

What Cloud did and said at Cosmo Canyon to Aerith...that is a Freudian slip.

"Probably" was thrown into the sentence by Cloud to show he wasn't sure if it would be as positive as he would think.


Question, did you read AerithG's post? She made a lot of good points.