Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[GreyGardens]

Cloud thinks Aerith’s eyes are "impressive" —->

Cloud thinks Aerith’s smile is a "good purchase" —->

Cloud leaves his initial meeting with Aerith with a “mysterious feeling” —->

Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date —->

SE decides to make Cloud have a flashback about romantic relationships in Aerith’s house (what was SE’s intent for including this? Why would they choose for Cloud to have this flashback while he was sleeping in Aerith’s house? Just to provide some context: Cloud had just met Aerith. He agreed to be her bodyguard for the price of one date. He had just spent time laughing with her. Protecting her. Then while Cloud is sleeping in her house, SE decides to throw in this flashback where Cloud’s Mother talks about girlfriends and dating someone older. Then right after this flashback is over, you see Cloud in his room and Aerith in her room. Clearly this was meant to set these two up as romantic love interests.) —->

Aerith asks if Tifa is Cloud’s girlfriend —->

Cloud and Aerith share an intimate date in the Sector 5 park where Aerith brings up her previous boyfriend, thus bringing romantic relationships to the forefront of the story (maybe this is SE’s clue that Cloud can be Aerith’s new Zack?) —->

Cloud tells Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him —->

Tifa gets jealous when she hears Cloud and Aerith flirting in the Shinra jail cell—->

Cloud says he will always be there for Aerith in Cosmo Canyon —->

Cloud and Aerith share a date at Golden Saucer —->

SE intentionally includes a wedding prediction about Cloud and Aerith’s affinity that becomes "more painful" after Aerith’s death —->

SE says that Cloud is Aerith’s "koibito" —->

SE includes a romantic cameo of Cloud and Aerith in FFIX —->

SE makes Cloud and Aerith Emperor and Empress

If you look at the order and progression of events, it is clear what SE was trying to do — they were trying to show us in subtle and not so subtle ways that Cloud and Aerith have a mutual romantic attraction. You can argue against each one of these things individually, but when taken together as a whole, it paints an undeniable picture of mutual romantic attraction.

It is clear, especially when Aerith dies, that Cloud developed a strong romantic connection with Aerith that has continued into the spiritual world.

Why I do not accept Cloti:

I agree that it is *USUALLY* safe to assume that when a man and a woman are living together, they are in a romantic relationship. But what complicates this typical assumption in the case of Cloud and Tifa is…

1: The place Cloud and Tifa reside in has *always* been home-base for AVALANCHE in Midgar.

2: Typically, romantic couples sleep in the same room, yet we are shown that Cloud has a bed in his room.

3: The family formed was formed with Barret and Barret’s daughter, Marlene. Marlene invites Cloud into her family.

4: Most families that are formed are formed from a romantic place. This is not the case with Cloud and Tifa’s situation.

5: Nomura states he has "no clue" if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship after the HAHW scene.

6: We know that Cloud and Tifa are going through issues because of Nojima’s premise that things "won’t go well" between them.

7: Cloud visits the Church of Tifa’s love rival (Aerith) and Tifa get’s jealous about it (which proves that Cloud visiting Aerith’s Church has romantic undertones)

8: The *ADVENT CHILDREN* relationship chart lists Cloud and Tifa as “childhood friends” *NOT* “romantic partners” or “lovers”. Cloud and Tifa*NEVER* have mutual favor arrows in any of SE’s relationship charts.

9: Tifa states she doesn’t know if Cloud loves her after the HAHW scene. If Tifa doesn’t know, Cloti’s shouldn’t pretend they know, either.
All of this tells me that a romantic relationship does not exist between Cloud and Tifa after the HAHW scene. So although Cloud and Tifa may have shared mutual feelings during the HAHW scene, those mutual feelings did not develop into a relationship. Nomura’s quote alone proves that a romantic relationship does not exist between Cloud and Tifa, but all the other reasons simply verify and support his statement.

Other points of interest:

A: Of the love triangles on SE’s “For The One I Love Page” (FTOIL), Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with both of his romantic love interests in two canon scenes of romance (see the first row of images). Since Cloud is pictured with both Aerith and Tifa on a page discussing romantic love, the FFVII love triangle is the only unsolved Final Fantasy love triangle.

Some say that because the caption under Cloud and Aerith’s date doesn’t directly mention Aerith by name, it somehow invalidates Cloud and Aerith’s presence on the FTOIL page. However, the Cloud x Aerith date *IS* canon. Therefore, the caption is irrelevant. The caption under Cloud and Aerith’s was there to represent *ALL* the dates on the FTOIL page because *ALL* the dates are romantic (ie: because they are *DATES*). However, SE pictured Cloud and Aerith’s date because it is the *canon* date, and because we are meant to apply the FTOIL page directly to their canon date. The reason we only see the HA Highwind scene on the FTOIL page is because it would have been inappropriate to discuss or include the LA Highwind scene on a page titled “For The One I Love”. But if you could get different characters for the HA Highwind scene like you can for the date, that would have also been included on the FTOIL page. SE lists a reference page above Cloud and Tifa’s image on the FTOIL page so readers can find out that the HA version is not the *only* version, the HA version is simply the only appropriate version of the Highwind scene to include on the FTOIL page. Since Cloud is pictured with both of his love interests in two canon scenes of romance on a page titled, “For The One I Love,” Cloud can love either Aerith or Tifa. In other words, all the other love triangles have been solved *EXCEPT* for Final Fantasy VII because Cloud Strife is the only hero involved in a love triangle pictured with *BOTH* of his romantic love interests.

B: Denzel and Barret are apart of the same family, it’s just that Denzel is not *living* with Barret, which is why Barret does not appear in any of the quotes that talk about Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel *living* together. Remember this quote?

“After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar. Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together.” ~Case of Tifa

It says that the, “three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene]” began *living* together *AFTER* Barret set off on a “journey”. This unequivocally proves that when the words “live”/”living”/”lived” are used to describe Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, it is ONLY excluding Barret because Barret is not TECHNICALLY “living” with them.

C: "Each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day…” ~Nomura, Square Enix

When *undying* is applied to a feeling or emotion that someone has, it is eternal and forever. So although you can make the argument that *undying* when applied to a fictional creature doesn’t mean eternal and forever, when the word “undyingl” is applied to a human emotion or feeling, it *IS* eternal and forever. Therefore, it does not make sense that Nomura would be referring to Cloud’s guilt as *undying* when the entire point of Advent Children is to rid Cloud of his guilt.

D: "There’s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in Final Fantasy VII might be answered.” ~Nomura, Square Enix

Nomura specifically says that although the two universes of Kingdom Hearts and FFVII are separate, the Kingdom Hearts universe might help answer questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith as it pertains to Final Fantasy VII’s universe. Cloud and Aerith are seen together at the end of Kingdom Hearts similar to other romantic couples.

E: The argument about Cait Sith’s prediction should not revolve around how reliable he is. The argument should be about what was SE’s intent for including this wedding prediction in the game. SE could have had Aerith ask Cait Sith about her future and Cait Sith could have said, “You will have a bright future full of many happy times!” — this would have set the player up to get their heart broken when she was killed by Sephiroth. Instead, they specifically decided to include a prediction about Aerith’s romantic future with Cloud. It was a romantic prediction about her future with Cloud, not just a generic prediction about her future. So given the context of the game and how things were progressing between Cloud and Aerith, it is obvious why SE included this wedding prediction — so the gamer would have the idea in their head that Cloud and Aerith had the possibility of sharing a romantic future together, which would then be destroyed by the hands of the evil Sephiroth. A generic prediction about Aerith’s future would not have been nearly as meaningful or impactful to the gamer, which is why they specifically made the prediction about Aerith’s romantic future with Cloud. The romance that was clearly developing between Cloud and Aerith, in addition to a prediction about a their romantic future together, makes her death all the more sad. SE killed off a romantic love interest to Cloud because it would be more impactful to the gamer. If SE had killed Barret, I can guarantee you that it would not have been as memorable or as impactful to the gamer. One of the biggest reasons Aerith’s death is so sad is because she wasn’t just a friend to Cloud. Aerith had a possible romantic future with Cloud, which is exactly what SE wanted us to think, so that when they killed her, it was that much more painful and heartbreaking for those of us playing the game. Luckily, their love transcends traditional barriers and continues in the spiritual world. Furthermore, SE refers to this prediction as a wedding prediction. Why would they refer to it as a wedding prediction if it was not meant to highlight the romantic connection Cloud and Aerith have in the game?

F: Cloud and Tifa expressing mutual feelings =/= romantic relationship.

Although this is a reasonable assumption, it is *NOT* always the case that expressing mutual feelings means a romantic relationship begins. As we can see, Cloud and Tifa are living in a world of very rare and unique circumstances that I believe prevented them from ever turning their mutual feelings into a romantic relationship.

G: Did the ‘real’ Cloud meet Aerith?

“After developing his personality by using Zack’s memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud’s coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality.” ~page 180, FFVII Ultimania Omega

This quote tells us that many aspects of the ‘real’ Cloud were present during disc 1.

In addition, Cloud continues to feel strong feelings for Aerith after her death. This means that the ‘real’ Cloud has strong feelings for Aerith based on interactions they had when

Cloud wasn’t completely himself. This means that it doesn’t matter if Cloud wasn’t completely himself when he interacted with Aerith, because the ‘real’ Cloud has strong feelings for Aerith after her death.

Furthermore, Cloud and Aerith’s connection continues after her death, which means the ‘real’ Cloud does get to know Aerith, especially during Advent Children.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Hmm...you make sense...

But I don't think Cloud faked Aeris's "death speech", romantic or not.

And as for Cloud only moving onto Tifa because Aeris had passed away - that's not what I meant. Obviously, Cloud isn't like that and that's not what happened. Yes, it seemed that with Aeris in the picture, it was going to be Aeris romantically, but once she moved out of the picture, the opportunities for Tifa arrived. What were those opportunities? The fact that she held the key to Cloud's past and, therefore, got to grow closer to him. I wasn't saying that Cloud was only drawn to Tifa because he saw that Aeris was gone and decided to go to the next girl for that reason.

As for his buried feelings for Tifa...I would say that when I first played FF7, I noticed what you said. It was like once they revealed Cloud's true past, his feelings for Tifa came out. But there is the argument that Cloud was never "fake Cloud"; that he was always Cloud, just that he didn't remember, or blocked out, what really happened. What is the truth?

Here is my new answer to the LTD: AAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!

Yes, it seemed that with Aeris in the picture, it was going to be Aeris romantically, but once she moved out of the picture, the opportunities for Tifa arrived. What were those opportunities? The fact that she held the key to Cloud's past and, therefore, got to grow closer to him.

yes, clerith was the red herring of the game nobody saw. i know what you mean by "opportunities ", but seriously. yes, aerith died so it was obvious - REALLY obvious - it was tifa. but clouds subconscious proves that even if aerith lived until she was 100yrs old cloud would always love tifa. in fact he told her "Nothing's changed" when they both were under the highwind. not one inch did he stop. and have you ever wondered WHY tifa was the key? just wondered? because every single one of his memories involve HER. nobody but HER could have gotten to the real cloud IF cloud didnt love her. tifa was the key because cloud made it that way.




i also just cant understand why people (not talking about you specifically) insist cloud pledged his love to aerith or something when she died. he was zloud when it happened. why cant they just admit it? no, the real cloud wouldnt have thrown her into the water (or whatever it was) and dance on the spot she got murdered. as proven later on in the game, aerith was very close to cloud even she penetrated the zloud into the real cloud when he was uncovered, but it wasnt romantic love since he was zloud at that point.


also WHAT THE HECKLE? where in the WORLD did you hear cloud was real cloud all along?!?!? >.< wow, thats screwed up.


here, read this: (http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/)

At the start of FFVII Cloud posed as a “cool ex-SOLDIER”, and kept up a cocky front. After it is revealed that he was never in SOLDIER, and he begins to act like himself, but he still doesn’t show his emotions very much. The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story, when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness. Even after rediscovering his true self and beginning a new life, he is bound by a sense of guilt and mostly keeps the same sullen expression. When you think of this, the smile he shows at the end of AC (see image below right) is deeply emotional.

whoever is telling you this is some straight BS lies. dont believe that. does this make sense for you now? : D SO GIMME YOUR VIEWS!! >.<

 

[The Witch]

NothingToSeeHere, why didn't you answer me? You keep saying Clerith arguments are "bullshit" but you don't use any evidence to prove why. you also said you're not trying to insult me but you said something to instigate a fight or something;

do you need to play the game again or are you 12 or something so you dont understand FFVII?

source

you say you're not trying to be mean but your words prove otherwise.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

@NothingToSeeHere, why didn't you answer me? You keep saying Clerith arguments are "bullshit" but you don't use any evidence to prove why. you also said you're not trying to insult me but you said something to instigate a fight or something;


source

you say you're not trying to be mean but your words prove otherwise.

i TOLD you i get passionate in debates, whether the LTD or duel debates. its just who i am. its just how i talk. it has nothing to do with you. so, like i said, dont take offence. :T

also i cant reply to your post because i dont have the time right now. ohhh i have LOTS to tell you, missy mama clerith. >.> you just have to wait for now. dont worry you'll know when ill reply.

 

[The Witch]

i TOLD you i get passionate in debates, whether the LTD or duel debates. its just who i am. its just how i talk. it has nothing to do with you. so, like i said, dont take offence. :T

also i cant reply to your post because i dont have the time right now. ohhh i have LOTS to tell you, missy mama clerith. >.> you just have to wait for now. dont worry you'll know when ill reply.

You're not gonna use fan interpretations or opinions, right? Because in the one post that I DID get back to of yours, you used nothing but opinion.

And how about this, don't talk down to me anymore and I won't do it to you. I'm a very angry person as of late and I don't want to blow up at you because you said something demeaning to me.

Also, don't bother getting back yet, I'm still answering the other post of yours.

 

[Six]

I think it would make more sense for the two of you to keep the diggy comments at each other either in private or completely off the site. If people in this thread can't lay off personal comments, maybe you should consider not getting in to these debates.

If you have problems you can take them to the FF mods.

 

[The Witch]

All I'm asking is for NothingToSeeHere to stop instigating with me and throwing snide comments at me. I haven't thrown any rude comments at them yet (if I did it was after they did it first).

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd I just checked my deviantart and they're still insulting me there which leads me to believe it will continue here.

 

[Ilyena]

Keep the thread on topic. Lay off the personal insults. It's just a game.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I think it would make more sense for the two of you to keep the diggy comments at each other either in private or completely off the site. If people in this thread can't lay off personal comments, maybe you should consider not getting in to these debates.

If you have problems you can take them to the FF mods.

i respect what you say but......why not the people who dont want read it....not read it??? its not like there are notifications and even then they dont make siren sounds...just ignore the thread...i do it like all the time and everything is fine with me. i dont see any comments i dont want and im chill. :T
also i was confused by your sig picture for a bit (i was like "why is she dead like aerith?") but then i read the words and was like "OHHHHHH!" lol so you think you can give me the web link to the pic pretty pweeze?

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

You're not gonna use fan interpretations or opinions, right? Because in the one post that I DID get back to of yours, you used nothing but opinion.

And how about this, don't talk down to me anymore and I won't do it to you. I'm a very angry person as of late and I don't want to blow up at you because you said something demeaning to me.

Also, don't bother getting back yet, I'm still answering the other post of yours.

NO NO dont do that! >.< i TOLD you not to reply to me there! *sigh* just copy and paste what you said there on here, ok?

 

[Ilyena]

This is not a general chit chat thread. Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.

 

[Oooorvidame]

Cloud/Aerith.

Mainly because of the contrast between Cloud and Aerith and their development as a couple.

It's not so hard to see them as such since they flirted with each other from the very beginning, or the special treat that Cloud gave to Aerith or the concern, sometimes, he even treated her almost with overprotectiveness. (Heck, if Tifa is jealous of their relationship even after Aerith's death, it's for something)

Not to mention that Cloud is described as Aerith's lover, I mean, it's alright if you don't like the pairing, but saying their romance has never existed?

Just no.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Cloud/Aerith.

Mainly because of the contrast between Cloud and Aerith and their development as a couple.

It's not so hard to see them as such since they flirted with each other from the very beginning, or the special treat that Cloud gave to Aerith or the concern, sometimes, he even treated her almost with overprotectiveness. (Heck, if Tifa is jealous of their relationship even after Aerith's death, it's for something)

Not to mention that Cloud is described as Aerith's lover, I mean, it's alright if you don't like the pairing, but saying their romance has never existed?

Just no.

lol its funny how you note EVERYTHING cloud and aerith did was in the 1st disc. cloud is zloud at this point. try again. and no, the REAL CLOUD and aerith's romance never and will never exist. the highwind scene proves this. cloud slept with the girl he wanted all along. you mad bro?also that lover crud is by an uncanon book, so it doesnt count. : D

 

[Kitsune22]

To Nothingtoseehere...

Your argument is all opinion, you provide no proof.
"cloud slept with the girl he wanted all along."
I take it you are talking about when they live together?
Weeelll... They had separate rooms, they never slept together...
By the way, if you are getting so passionate that you're getting upset, you need to take the back seat.
Bashing people and their pairing is not wanted in a debate. Be calm headed and act like an adult.
Provide proof of your pairing or leave the debate to others who do have links and sources.
:3

 

[The Witch]

Cloud/Aerith.

Mainly because of the contrast between Cloud and Aerith and their development as a couple.

It's not so hard to see them as such since they flirted with each other from the very beginning, or the special treat that Cloud gave to Aerith or the concern, sometimes, he even treated her almost with overprotectiveness. (Heck, if Tifa is jealous of their relationship even after Aerith's death, it's for something)

Not to mention that Cloud is described as Aerith's lover, I mean, it's alright if you don't like the pairing, but saying their romance has never existed?

Just no.

yessssssss Thank you for posting!! I totally agree about everything you said, especially about the flirting. In this official book titled Dismantled; when Cloud and Aerith first meet on the streets of Midgar (and Cloud buys a flower from her) Cloud says Aerith has impressive eyes and says that her smile is a good purchase. There's also a part in the book where Cloud compares Aerith's smile to a flower and says "I'll never hear Aerith's innocent laugh... ever again".

QUOTE 1: Cloud: "Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger."
(snip)
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. - FFVII DISMANTLED

And this quote shows Cloud saying meeting Aerith was amazing.

QUOTE 2: Cloud: "It’s quite amazing. Previously, I met a flowergirl, Aerith, at 5th Street of the Slum, and now I was received at her place... - FFVII DISMANTLED

This quote shows Cloud comparing Aerith's smile to a flower; and then he says she has an innocent laugh; and the way he's speaking shows that Cloud misses her laugh and smile.

QUOTE 3: Cloud: "Aerith died. Right in front of my eyes... I couldn't stop Sephiroth. She was in my reach, and all I could do was stand there and watch as his sword ran through her.
Aerith used to smile like a flower, all the time... But, Aerith won't smile anymore. I won't ever hear her innocent laugh again.
What did she do?
Why did Aerith have to die?
What am I supposed to do about this anger, it's endlessly boiling and burning up my body.
But at the same time, I was afraid. Like a chill coming from the core of my body.
When I found Aerith there, offering up some prayer, what did I try to do? If my friends hadn't stopped me at that moment, I would have struck my sword down on Aerith. It was something separate from my own will... it was like when I gave Sephiroth the Black Materia---Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right?
Tell me, Aerith---" - FFVII DISMANTLED

so yeah, Cloud was pretty romantic towards her!

lol its funny how you note EVERYTHING cloud and aerith did was in the 1st disc. cloud is zloud at this point. try again. and no, the REAL CLOUD and aerith's romance never and will never exist.

You keeping saying Cloud was "Zloud" (wtf) but you fail to provide any proof. You actually haven't posted any proof yet, you just keep saying your opinion. It was not "Zloud" and I've given you proof.

Cloud may have confused some of his memories with Zack, but he did not "become" Zack. In fact, Zack and
Cloud are exact opposites (Zack was a "ladies man", very outgoing; Cloud is introverted and cold). So, I don't get how Aerith didn't get to know the "real" Cloud, when he was there all along. The only memories Cloud confused with Zack's are the memories regarding SOLDIER. Cloud never "became" Zack. You want proof? I got it....

Due to the influence of the Jenova cells implanted in his body he acted out a false persona, but with the
support of his friends he regains his true self and grows as a person. (FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania,
Cloud's profile)

This statement says nothing about Cloud becoming an entirely different person. He merely acted out a false persona (the definition of "persona" being "the mask or facade presented to satisfy the demands of the situation or the environment and not representing the inner personality of the individual"), putting up a cool front to cover up his own inner weaknesses. However, Cloud's true personality was there all along.

In the section of Cloud's profile that covers Crisis Core, all it says is that Cloud imitated Zack's personality.
Once again, it is confirmed that Cloud was merely acting out a false personality as a mask to hide behind.
Cloud idolized Zack and promised a dying Zack that he would live out both their lives. However, Cloud acts
nothing like Zack. Cloud imitates Zack's cocky attitude as a First Class SOLDIER and even learns some of
Zack's moves and gestures. However, that is where the similarities end. Cloud is as cold and condescending toward others as Zack was carefree and warm. And you were saying Cloud "became" Zack where?

The origin of the saying "not interested". In the scene when the young Cloud explains his mental state by saying, "I used to think people around me were foolish", surprisingly, he shows the posture of shrugging his shoulders. If we consider this, the part of his coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting "not interested" all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells, they belong to the real Cloud's personality. (FFVII Ultimania Omega, p. 180)

Yeah, this is for all the people claiming that, not only did Cloud "become" Zack, he was controlled
entirely by Jenova during his time with Aerith. If Cloud was Zack all along and was controlled by Jenova, wouldn't he have become an entirely different person after the Lifestream event, where, according to you lot, he became his true self again? And, yet, that doesn't happen, does it? Actually, Cloud stays exactly the same, doesn't he? The only difference is that we now know that Cloud was never a member of SOLDIER. Otherwise, Cloud is still the same introverted, quiet loner that he was before.

After developing his personality by using Zack, who has cheerful characteristics, his memory as the base, Cloud still remained the part of coolness. (FFVII Ultimania Omega, p. 180)

In other words, even though Cloud used some of Zack's personality as a basis for his new persona, Cloud's true character and personality show through in his "coolness" and the fact that he isn't cheerful like Zack.


So even though Cloud used part of Zack’s personality as a “base” for his new personality, Cloud’s own personality and characteristics continue to be present, which is obvious since Cloud’s personality is nothing like Zack’s. The influence of Jenova’s cells on Cloud did not cause him to take on Zack’s entire personality. The real Cloud was there the entire time.

Furthermore, as mentioned above, Aerith was able to see behind Cloud’s façade, due to her mysterious, natural ability which allows her to see into the minds of others. No matter what mask Cloud was hiding behind, Aerith was able to see beyond it. It did not stop Aerith from falling in love with him. This is further reinforced in both the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania and the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Aerith's profile

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. ~page 31, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Aerith, who was confirmed in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania as being able to "see" inside the minds of others, knew that Cloud was hiding behind a facade. Nevertheless, she grew to love him anyways. And there were times that Aerith did catch a glimpse behind the mask Cloud presented to the world....

"So you won't have a breakdown..." Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud. (FFVII Ultimania Omega)

"I'm looking for you."... "So you won't have a breakdown."- what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. (FFVII Ultimania Omega, p. 29)

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud.
Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself. (FFVII Ultimania Omega, p. 31)

Also, in the official novella, Maiden of the Planet, Aerith is the one to guide Tifa into Cloud's subconscious
mind. Aerith is there the whole time watching Cloud reconstruct his true identity. Finally, Aerith was able to
meet the "real" Cloud and admitted that she was happy.

She also told Zack that she preferred Cloud's simplistic awkwardness to his [Zack's] flirtatiousness. So,
apparently, getting to know the "real" Cloud didn't affect Aerith's feelings for him at all. I hardly expected
anything different considering how Aerith also recalled Cloud's behaviors and mannerisms perfectly in MotP,
behaviors and mannerisms that were strictly Cloud's, not Zack's. Truly, Aerith knew the "real" Cloud all along, she just knew he was hiding behind a false front, thus her statement "I want to meet... you".

Besides, if Aerith didn't know the "real" Cloud, Tifa sure didn't either. She and Cloud were little more than
strangers as children. Tifa herself stated this. In fact, Tifa didn't really start getting to know Cloud until he
joined AVALANCHE many years later, right about the time he met Aerith. So, what applies to Aerith applies to Tifa as well.

the highwind scene proves this. cloud slept with the girl he wanted all along. you mad bro?

What on earth are you talking about? Which Highwind scene are you speaking about? The low affection version (where Tifa doesn't get to confess her unrequited love) or the High affection version (where she does confess her unrequited love but Cloud doesn't return her feelings and they go on as friends)? Neither scene has "sex" in it, that's all a fanboy's imagination. CoT proves Cloud & Tifa did not confess love at the end of VII. IF they did, Tifa wouldn't be doubting their supposed love less then a year later, would she? Nor would she be "FORCING" herself to talk to Cloud, and they sure as hell would not be "NOT getting along" like they are in CoT, especially since clotis claim Cloud's "happy" during CoT.
The 25thAU also proves that the Highwind Scenes ends with Cloud and Tifa confirming that they requested/was seeking a companion for the last battle with Sephiroth (since at this time Cloud & Tifa thought none of the others were coming back to help).

"For many years, Cloud and Tifa used to hold favor with each other.
Finally facing the approaching last battle with Sephiroth, they were able to confirm established feelings for requested company/partnership." - FFVII25thAU

Now, this quote proves that what Cloud and Tifa were requesting was to go on as companions, not romantic companions, but friends fighting together. And what makes this such a big deal is the fact that both Cloud & Tifa believed that none of the others would return for the final battle. In both the HIGH and the LOW affection versions of this scene, they both agree that during the previous night they were together they established that they do not have to go on alone;

Tifa “....”
(Cloud stands.)
Cloud "We'd better go."
(She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.)
Tifa "But, I still...!?"
(He turns to face her, shaking his head.)
Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday."
Cloud "At least we don't have to go on alone."
(A pause. Tifa nods)
Tifa"Yes... That's right!"

This dialog from EITHER version matches the above quote

Which brings us back to the "desired" quote; what Cloud & Tifa requested/desired was companionship for the final battle, why? because they didn't think anyone else would return.

There is no "sex" in this scene, not at all. What's "desired" and "confirmed" is companionship in the last battle. Only friendship occurs during that scene.

IF Cloud and Tifa supposedly had sex in the high affection version then why do they both sit in the same position in both the low and high version? No matter what version you get, Cloud & Tifa agree that they don't have to go on to the final battle by themselves and in BOTH versions Cloud and Tifa are in THIS pose the next morning;

If either scene results in Cloud and Tifa sitting side by side like this, and we know for a fact the LOW affection version definitely does not end in romance, then what does this mean for the conclusion of the HIGH affection version which you CLAIM resulted in sex?

It means that both versions end with no romance. If this sitting side by side pose was supposed to indicate that Cloud & Tifa had sex then they would not have also made them sit like that in the LOW affection version.


The significance of BOTH scenes ending with this proves one thing; that nothing romantic happened. The LA scene cannot convey romance because we know for a fact that the LA scene isn't romantic, which means them sitting side by side isn't romantic either. However, since the HA version also ends with them sitting like this that tells us that no romantic interactions took place either. If it had ended with physical romance then either the LA scene wouldn't have shown them sitting next to each other OR the HA version would have done something different. Neither happened proving that no physical interaction happened between them.

 

[Oooorvidame]

The Ultimania has stated that although Zack's memory has influenced Cloud's personality, the feelings he developed through the whole original game are of his own.

Also, you keep ignoring the fact that Tifa is still jealous after Aerith's death. If there is no romantic nature in C/A relationship, then why she feels like that?

The highwind scene, the high affection one is optional and the Ultimania has stated that as well.

Also, about that "uncanon" book... since it was written by Kazushige Nojima (the main scenario writer for several Final Fantasy series, including Final Fantasy VII) and what is most important, it was released by SE (you know, the company which owns the game), I really hope you're trolling because if it's not, your immature behavior and your ignorance are kinda embarassing.

Just saying.

 

[The Witch]

The Ultimania has stated that although Zack's memory has influenced Cloud's personality, the feelings he developed through the whole original game are of his own.

Also, you keep ignoring the fact that Tifa is still jealous after Aerith's death. If there is no romantic nature in C/A relationship, then why she feels like that?

The highwind scene, the high affection one is optional and the Ultimania has stated that as well.

Also, about that "uncanon" book... since it was written by Kazushige Nojima (the main scenario writer for several Final Fantasy series, including Final Fantasy VII) and what is most important, it was released by SE (you know, the company which owns the game), I really hope you're trolling because if it's not, your immature behavior and your ignorance are kinda embarassing.

Just saying.

ah, yes! Thank you for answering that. I forgot to correct them about it being a "fanfiction". NothingToSeeHere, Case of Livestream: Black & White was written by Nojima, who, like Oooorvidame said is a major voice in the production and development for the FFVII franchise. He is not a mere "fan" writing "fanfiction"--he is one of the main authors writing a canon book. And this Case of Lifestream book is the one that said Cloud was Aerith's lover. So it is not fanfiction. It is canon material.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Okay, first off--PLEASE separate your paragraphs better. Please, it's very hard to follow when there are giant walls of text like that. No offense. Also, I was trying NOT to post in here because I'm trying this thing where I don't completely tear down people's ships... but what you're saying is SO far from the truth I HAVE to reply. As mama clerith, I owe it to my clerith squad across the internet.

Second, you seem to be making Cloud out as if he's some creepy stalker when that wasn't the case. I mean, just read over what you say here;



He was not "obsessed" with her. He had a dim crush on her just like many of the other boys in their hometown . Cloud's crush on Tifa was generic, it was the same as all the other boys. She was the cliche popular girl in town, literally every single boy was crushing on her and became infatuated by her.

In FFVII Ultimania Tifa even admits that she went on dates with all the boys in town, read for yourself:

TIFA'S DIARY: "I wonder if Wel, Dan, Meiday, and the other boys who left the village are doing alright?
All the boys left for the city. They all called me out to the water tower. They all said the same things."

Notice how they all called her out to the well, making Cloud's invitation to the well generic and just the same as the other boys. Also notice how Tifa shows concern for those boys. This proves that Cloud's canon DIM and immature crush wasn't something as special as you believe it to be. His feelings for her were just the same as the other boys.

Thirdly, the creators of the game and story have said Cloud's crush on Tifa was DIM, as in weak. They've recently also said that his crush was "fleeting" and "immature"--neither of those adjectives define everlasting love nor are they words you'd use if you want to convey lasting feelings.

QUOTE 1: The promise with a childhood friend: Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud said that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, WHOM HE DIMLY FELL IN LOVE WITH, and made a promise to protect her. Such a pompous declaration turns out to be false - considering this, Cloud conceals his identity and coldly sweats under his helmet when he confronts his hometown.

******

QUOTE 2: “The True Wish Revealed: When Cloud was very young, he had no friends from others around his age, so he tried to believe himself special, he was an alienated child. Such as, when regarding him Tifa was important—the FLEETING AND ALSO IMMATURE LOVE was divulged in the spirit world.”— FF7 25th AU

As I said above, these two quotes clearly tell us the degree of Cloud's crush on Tifa, it's been described as fleeting, immature, and DIM--so you're interpretation of Cloud's crush on Tifa is pointless and holds no substantial importance in this debate because Nomura has already told us that his crush was childish, dim, and fleeting.

A fleeting and immature crush is not lasting—it is exactly as it said it is, fleeting; as in ceasing to exist. So the childhood crush that he used to have for Tifa has officially died out, meaning his dim feelings for her stopped.


If he continued to “love” her in the present time, then his love for her in present day would be considered a continuation of his childhood crush, meaning his crush would have had to never ended in order for love to develop in the future. If love did develop in the future then his crush would have just grown into love, meaning his previous feelings would still be involved in present day feelings and they would have just grown into something more…but not die out, though.


If Cloud’s crush ended (which this quote proves), then love couldn’t have developed from Cloud>Tifa in the future. The crush would be the basis, or foundation, of his could-be-future-love for her… And because he held that dim crush in the past that means if he were to continue on into the future loving her then his future love would be a growth stemming from his previous crush, which would involve his crush still existing...

However, as this official quote clearly points out, Cloud’s crush—which is the entire foundation of any possible future feelings he could have for her—has ceased to exist, that means he doesn’t carry romantic feelings for her in present day. Again, if he did, his crush wouldn’t be described as “fleeting” and “immature”, it would be a continuation.

All of this proves that his dim, fleeting, and immature crush that you claim is so important, actually isn't as important or long-lasting as you think it is.



So, yes it is completely plausible and possible that Cloud moved on from his DIM, IMMATURE, and FLEETING crush for Tifa and developed romantic interest in Aerith. I'm sorry you think this makes no sense but the creators are the ones who said Cloud's crush was dim and fleeting (as in, it disappeared after so long) and it was the creators who made Cloud willingly go on TWO dates with Aerith when Tifa's throwing herself at him.


And Tifa is not mature, dependable, or responsible. She left a four year old child in a bar while Midgar was going to hell in a shit basket, but Aerith sacrificed herself to save that same little girl, only Aerith didn't know Marlene. But this is WAY off base since it comes down to interpretation.

Cloud's crush ENDED, Nomura said Cloud's crush was DIM, IMMATURE, AND FLEETING--stop saying he was still interested in her. The creators have said otherwise.

I think you need to replay the game. Cloud was NOT Zack. Cloud did not have Zack's feelings, all Cloud had was Zack's OCCUPATIONAL legacy and a few memories. IF Cloud took on Zack's feelings and life like you claim, Cloud would have called himself ZACK FAIR and he would have instantly known who Aerith was and resumed dating her as if he was Zack, but instead neither happened.

IF Cloud was "Zack" during the time he knew Aerith, the Jenova cells in Cloud would have mimicked Aerith's memories and Cloud would have called himself Zack Fair and acted as if he and Aerith had been together already, Cloud WOULD HAVE resumed Zack's feelings and romantic stand-point.

Did you see Cloud calling himself Zack Fair?
Did you see Cloud recalling memories only Zack and Aerith would know?
Did you see Aerith acting as if Cloud was Zack?
Did you see Cloud or Aerith acting as if they knew each other?
Did you see Cloud or Aerith recalling any of Zack and Aerith's previous romantic interactions?

Cloud took Zack's legacy and a few traits of his, but that's where it ends. And what he did mimic from Zack was possible only from CLOUD'S memory, not anyone else. So no, Cloud did not start showing interest in Aerith because he was "Zack"--he was not Zack and never was. The game CLEARLY proves this.

Victoriously? Did you just use that word on a woman that lied to Cloud about his past all so she could have a little longer to think about what she wanted to do (as if she even had to think about such a thing, she should have told him immediately)? Tifa was keeping Cloud's past from him, for whatever reason, she did what she OWED him, what anyone would owe ANYONE. You're glorifying this and it's... it's really strange. :/

I just imagined Cid watching Cloud turn Tifa down.... awkward.

Nomura already said that he has NO idea whether or not Cloud and Tifa got together at the end of VII or during AC.

QUOTE 3: Nomura: I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue. ~Nomura, Dorimaga interview, published at Flaregamer

So even if you think that quote has any significance it's nullified by Nomura's comment here. If the creator doesn't know if they're together, then neither to the characters. Besides that, the HAHW scene isn't a canon outcome. It's optional. So even IF it was romantic, it's an optional scene that isn't the canon outcome.

Cloud felt guilt for Zack, yes that is true--but his guilt for Aerith was IMMENSE and FAR FAR GREATER. Let's just recap some things, shall we.

VII
1) Cloud never speaks of ANY guilt or emotions about Zack after learning of him.
2) Cloud says that the world being destroyed doesn't matter all because AERITH was gone now.
3) Cloud says that he thinks about Aerith A LOT, if he felt the same guilt for Zack why isn't he thinking about him a lot as well?
4) Cloud says that above everything else he is fighting to unfreeze Aerith's smile (said in Dismantled)

CONCLUSION IN VII: Cloud never speaks of Zack but ALWAYS speaks of Aerith, Cloud shows guilt only for Aerith during VII--meaning: he did not put his guilt for them on the same level.

AC:
1) Cloud is able to go to Zack's grave very easily.
2) However, Nomura said Cloud AVOIDS the forgotten city because the pain Cloud feels is too immense.
3) Cloud only seeks AERITH'S forgiveness, not Zack's. Automatically proving which of the guilt Cloud cares for more.
4) Nomura said only AERITH can lift the immense sadness and pain from Cloud, if Zack's death weighed on him just as much then it would have taken BOTH of their "forgiveness" to lift that sadness.
5) Cloud said that he wanted AERITH'S forgiveness more than anything.
6) Cloud was willing to give up on his promise to Zack and die because of how depressed and sad he was about Aerith's death.

CONCLUSION IN AC: While Cloud can visit Zack's grave, he simply cannot bare to revisit the place where he and Aerith parted because it overwhelms him with sadness and emotion--Nomura said the forgotten capital was the one place Cloud avoided simply because of the pain and sadness he felt when there. It's been stated that only Aerith's forgiveness can heal Cloud's pain (not Zack's) and it was stated by Cloud himself that he wanted AERITH'S forgiveness more than anything, that means even over forgiveness from Zack. The fact that Cloud was willing to give up on his promise to Zack proves that his guilt for Aerith was far more important.

All of this proves that Cloud's "guilt" for Zack was not anywhere near as large or immense as his guilt and sadness for Aerith was.

Cloud's crush ENDED before VII even began, Nomura said Cloud's crush was DIM, IMMATURE, AND FLEETING--please stop saying he was still interested in her when I've provided quotes proving that the creators have said otherwise.

Is that because you say so? It's coming off like it is.

Cloud accepted TWO dates from Aerith, TWO--one in which ended "magically" after Aerith confessed her feelings to him. And YES the Clerith date IS canon.

I can prove the Clerith date is canon with one quote... are you ready?


QUOTE 4: Aerith : Oh, Cloud… I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud… --- DISMANTLED


Take notice to the very very very important detail in that sentence. What is it that jumps out at you? What wins the utmost attention? If it’s not “I enjoyed our date at Gold Saucer” than you probably just can’t believe something as inarguable as this could exist. It’s like Square Enix really really did not want anyone to have any ounce of confusion about which date is canon, and boy! did this quote hammer home which girl Cloud went on the magical date with in the city of desire.

Keep in mind this is a non-optional scene that includes Aerith recalling her and Cloud’s date in the Gold Saucer and it definitely canonizes the Clerith date, just like AC canonizes Yuffie and Vincent's existence.

So yes, the clerith date IS canon. And this proves that Cloud DID develop romantic interest in Aerith.

You can read my full essay here...

Spoiler

http://astoryofalove.tumblr.com/clerithdate

I’ve seen quite a few people claim that it’s Cloud and Tifa who are the default date for a few reasons. And hopefully I can somewhat prove it’s Aerith who is the default date. And yes, I know. I’m going to be trampled underfoot for writing this, but hey, what can a girl do?


Argument 1. “The U20 & VII’s 10th AU shows a picture of Cloud and Tifa’s date.”
Yes, it’s true. The U20 and 10th AU do show Tifa’s date. In the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Cloud’s profile page, it has this;

[FFVII] “Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.”

And in Tifa’s U20 profile this is said;
[FFVII] “She is shy when it comes to love. She’s getting better at plainly expressing her feelings to Cloud, though, and can do so more easily now.”- translated by TresDias

As you can see, neither of those quotes says anything about which girl is easiest to get or is thenormal choice. It just goes on about how Aerith is able to tell Cloud her feelings when Tifa cannot. But there’s no evidence that supports the idea of Tifa being the default date. Nothing like one of the creators saying she’s easiest to get or is the normal choice. Nothing.


Argument 2. “The song that plays during that scene is “Interrupted by fireworks/Drowned by fireworks” which matches Tifa best because Tifa doesn’t get to finish telling Cloud her feelings because she is literally interrupted by fireworks.”
The second and most known argument used. The song that plays on the gondola is indeed a song named “Interrupted by Fireworks.”

But this song doesn’t just play on the date. In a matter of fact, it plays many other times that I can think of right off of the bat.
First, when you are walking the train-tracks in Coral. Second, is when Caitsith tells everybody that he’ll solve the puzzles in the Temple of the Ancients. And most importantly, this song plays when Cloud and Aerith have their stars being perfect for each other and then their affinity predicted. It’s clear that this song, “interrupted by frieworks/drowned by fireworks,” plays in other scenes besides the date.

So if the song’s name held any meaning at all to any of the scenes it appears in, why isn’t anyone being interrupted when Caitsith solves the puzzle or when you’re walking the train-tracks of Coral?

Because, the song is just a song that appears in the game, it has no meaning behind it. Another thing, Tifa is interrupted just as much as anyone else on the date is. Aerith says she wants to meet Cloud as the fireworks start, and then nothing more is said. That’s being interrupted.

If anything, this song matches Cloud and Aerith more than anyone else. It not only plays during their affinity prediction, but also any time Cloud remembers Aerith. So it makes much more sense that the song is a Cloud and Aerith tune rather than a song made simply for Tifa, to which it has no connection to.
Argument 3. ” Is because Tifa was interrupted on the date, it matches the Highwind scene—since she is able to finally make her feelings obvious. Therefore it matches the storyline better for it to be Tifa.”
This has to really be the only argument to me that makes any sense at all.

First and foremost, both Highwind scenes, whether low or high, hasn’t been confirmed to be default or canon. So even if Tifa’s date matches the High affection Highwind scene it doesn’t matter because the High affection highwind scene isn’t canon nor default. But if we’re going to claim a certain date is default because it plugs in with the story better. Aerith being Cloud’s date outweighs the reasoning for Tifa easily.

First of all, in the beginning of the game, Aerith asks Cloud to become her bodyguard, in which Cloud replies by telling her “it’ll cost her”, which she then promises a date and Cloud Agrees.

Aerith: “Say, Cloud. Have you ever been a bodyguard?”
Aerith: “You DO do everything, right?”
Cloud:”Yeah, that’s right.”
Aerith: “Then, get me out of here. Take me home.”
Cloud:”OK, I’ll do it… but it’ll cost you.”
Aerith:”Well then, let’s see……”
"How about if I go out with you once?"
(Cloud makes an affirmative nod. He confronts the person.)

I know some will try and claim that Cloud doesn’t agree. But if Cloud didn’t accept the date as payment, then why would he be protecting her? He just got finished telling her that it would cost her for his protection. She offers the date for his protection and Cloud immediately confronts Reno, A Turk coming after Aerith.

If Cloud didn’t accept her date as payment for his protection, then he really wouldn’t have started to protect her so quickly. If he didn’t accept the date, then he should have at least told her they’d figure out how else it will “cost her” after he rescues her from Reno. But he didn’t. Instead, after he hears how she plans on paying him back, he nods his head and quickly turns and faces Reno—the person who Aerith is running from, protecting her in the process.

You can find the video of Cloud accepting the date as payment; Go to the time of 6:54-7:02

{if GIF is not working, click here}
It’s very clear that Cloud nods his head in that scene to accept Aerith’s date as payment for him protecting her. But, still, some would still ignore Cloud’s affirmative nod. This gif, however, proves he does in fact nod to her proposal of one date for his protection. Moving on…

To add to this, both Cloud and Aerith speak of their “promised date" through out the game; the scene when they’re locked in the Shinra jail; they speak of their promised date and how it was the deal they made in return for Cloud’s protection.

Aerith:”I knew that Cloud would come for me.”
Cloud:”Hey, I’m your bodyguard, right?”
Aerith:”The deal was for one date, right?”


So, here they are speaking about how the deal for Cloud to be her bodyguard is for one date in exchange. Again, if Cloud didn’t accept the date, why are they speaking about how the “deal was for one date?” And if Cloud didn’t accept her date, then he should have surely said so here, shouldn’t he? Did he? No. Of course not. Because the date with Aerith is exactly what he wanted from her. Not money like he forced Tifa and Barret to pay him with… just one magical date.

The date is reinforced by the fact that Aerith calls Cloud her bodyguard in these scenes;
-As they’re crossing the rooftops after leaving the Church:
Aerith “…Your eyes. They have a strange glow…”
Cloud “That’s the sign of those who have been infused with Mako…”
"A mark of SOLDIER."
"But, how did you know about that?"
Aerith “……..Oh, nothing.”
Cloud “Nothing….?”
Aerith “Right, nothing!”
"Come on, let’s go! Bodyguard!"


-When Aerith introduces Cloud to Elmyra:
Aerith “I’m home, mom.”
(Her mother, Elmyra, walks over.)
"This is Cloud, my bodyguard."
Elmyra “Bodyguard…..? You mean you were followed again!?”
"Are you all right!? You’re not hurt, are you!?"


As they’re leaving Midgar (an optional response):
<CHOICE> Really? …You worried?
It’s dangerous. You sure you want to go?

Cloud: “Really? …You worried?”
Aerith: “A little,… no, maybe a lot. But I have my bodyguard, right?”
Why would Aerith be calling Cloud her bodyguard if he wasn’t her bodyguard? And more importantly, why is Cloud allowing her to call him bodyguard? Perhaps, because, he IS her bodyguard? And for Cloud to be her bodyguard that would involve Cloud accepting Aerith’s date as payment. Since, payment is what Cloud wanted to be her body guard in the first place.

Well, Aerith’s words obviously don’t mean anything in the LTD. How about Cloud’s own words, then? Through the game, we see Cloud even believes he is Aerith’s bodyguard. And this is not only reinforced by all the times he protects her, but also by this quote found in the FFVII Dismantled. Page 141.

Well, it’s midnight already, seems about time to leave for the 7th Street.
Aerith declared that she’ll show me the way. But if I let her, it seems hard to tell who’s the bodyguard. I’m gonna slip out of here.

It seems as though, Cloud does think of himself as Aerith’s bodyguard, meaning, he did accept her date, otherwise he wouldn’t be calling himself her bodyguard if he didn’t get payment.

More evidence to support this notion is found in the same book, Dismantled, this is said;Page 148
Aerith: Well, as for the one-date payment, I think I should make it two!

Why would Aerith say this if Cloud didn’t accept the date in the first place? Simple, because he did.

Also, Aerith being the default date is further proven by the following scan and translation of a FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania page.


Translation done by Saeki of the CxA forums:
Top left :
Cloud, come and rescue me okay?
Top Middle :
Are you okay?
Top right :
Aerith : I’m looking for you.
Centre :
FFVII has always been in our hearts ~

This page is showing significant scenes from the game. And as you can see, the date that is shown is Aerith’s along with her line “I’m looking for you”. To think, if Tifa’s was the default date one of her lines would appear on this scan?

And, from the Final Fantasy Art Collection, an official collection of collector’s cards;
#065 AERITH GAINSBOROUGH
Going to the Promised Land The fated meeting with Cloud wavers the fate of Aerith. The Cetra language that Aerith heard from her mother when she was young. A person who nurtures the Planet. As the last of the Ancient race, she takes it as her responsibility to go to the Promised Land that she has not seen. Aerith sees traces of Zack in Cloud and her very pure heart leads her to develop a liking for Cloud.

Well then, let’s see…… How about if I go out with you once?
(Payment for Cloud.)

No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…
(First and last date.)

For it to have been Tifa as the default date, that means Cloud and Aerith’s date couldn’t have been said to be their last. Because, supposedly, Cloud and Aerith’s date never happened—so again, how can a date that never occurred be their last? This alone might not canonize the date, but it definitely gives us more detail as to what happened between Cloud and Aerith on this date in the city of desire.


#111 The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A promised date that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…
I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…
The first heavy font part—A promised date that ends in a magical night—could only be talking about the date Aerith promised Cloud for his protection. If it was Tifa who was supposed to be the date, it wouldn’t be described as a “promised date.” As we all know, no where in the game does Cloud or Tifa everpromise the other a date. The only person to promise a date is Aerith to Cloud. No one else. Aerith promising Cloud a date is also reinforced by Nomura in the following VIIUO quote:



This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it’ll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. It may be because of this promise that it’s easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud’s date when they’re in the Gold Saucer. ~pg. 30, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Notice how it says because of Aerith’s promise to Cloud for one date it makes her as the date easiest to get? As said above, the “promised date" in the "city of desire" that "ends magically" isindeed Cloud and Aerith’s date.

You’ve all read it yourself, the promise of paying Cloud with one date, makes it easier to get Aerith as Cloud’s date. Again, if Tifa was the default date, it should be Tifa who is the easiest date to get, not Aerith. But, this isn’t all we should look at. There’s also this DISMANTLED quote:


1. In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith. ~FFVII Dismantled

So there’s also a quote saying that Aerith is the girl to come as the date if you play the gamenormally. If Tifa was the default date, why is Aerith the date you get if you play the gamenormally? Shouldn’t it be Tifa? Why is Tifa an abnormal date to get if she is in fact the default/canon date for Cloud?

And if the song “Interrupted by Fireworks” had any meaning or significance to the date at all, especially if the song only fits Tifa, it should be Tifa who is easiest to get on the date. It should be Tifa who comes if you play the game normally. Not Aerith.

One last detail one must keep in mind is this last quote published in FINAL FANTASY VII DISMANTLED that takes place during Cloud’s dream in the forgotten forest:

Aerith : Oh, Cloud… I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful.
I’ll never forget it.
I’ll never forget you, Cloud…
Take notice to the very very very important detail in that sentence. What is it that jumps out at you? What wins the utmost attention? If it’s not “I enjoyed our date at Gold Saucer” than you probably just can’t believe something as inarguable as this could exist. It’s like, Square Enix really really did not want anyone to have any ounce of confusion about which date is canon, and boy! did this quote hammer home which girl Cloud went on the magical date with in the city of desire.

The wonderful thing about this specific quote is that many many Cloti fans use the fact that the High Affection Highwind scene is referenced many times throughout the ultimanias that that must mean the HAHW scene is the canon outcome. Surely if THAT logic officializes the HAHW scene in their opinions, than a nonoptional scene including Aerith recalling her and Cloud’s date in the Gold Saucer definitely canonizes the Clerith date.

So, what’s the conclusion?
That Aerith is Cloud’s default/CANON date.

One last thing I’d like to point out; in the scan from the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Clotis have claimed that Cloud and Tifa are canon because they *think* that the high affection version of the Highwind scene is default-despite there not being any supporting evidence to prove that-

They like to ignore that Cloud and Aerith’s date is also shown on that same exact page. And would you guess what scene is shown? The magical date in the city of desire that Cloud and Aerith go on. Clotis like to say it doesn’t mean anything because all the date quote speaks of is how multiple people can appear on the date. However, Clotis ignore that the highwind scene is also said to be optional with no canon outcome.

But if the obvious default date is Aerith, and the default highwind scene still hasn’t been made clear like the way the date has been spoken about, isn’t it kinda obvious which couple of the two has more significance in that scan?

The default and canon date for Cloud and Aerith on a page about love and romance VS anoptional scene with no canon outcome?

Kinda self explanatory, isn’t it?
____________________________________
Thank you for reading. Comments are appreciated.

Another thing that proves Cloud developed feelings for Aerith is the fact that Cloud’s Romantic Interest In Aerith Is Spoken Of In Marlene’s 25thAU Pages!

The original scene which shows Cloud’s romantic interest in AERITH is the following;

Marlene: ”Guess what? Guess what? Aerith was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!”
Choices that you can make Cloud reply with: ”I don’t know” OR "Let’s hope so" If you choose “Let’s hope so" this happens;

• Marlene: ”I won’t tell Tifa!”

And now thanks to Furybrand of the Clerith forums for first mentioning this to us and a thanks to TLS for the translation, here is the significant quote that proves Cloud says "let's hope so" about Aerith liking him;

"Marlene is a sharp girl
"Even though she’s only 4 years old, Marlene is perceptive and well attuned to the woman mind. The scene where she ascertains that Aerith has favor for Cloud and tells him so, then says “I won’t tell Tifa!” demonstrates this grownup behavior.”

マリンはおませんな女の子
まだ4歳なのに、マリンはおしゃまで女心に敏感。エアリスがクラウドに好意を持っていることを見抜いて彼に報告し、「ティファには内緒にしておく」と一人前に気をまわすひ と幕も。

IMAGE PROVIDED BY TLS * SOURCE
​

One can say that this canonizes that Cloud tells Marlene that he hopes Aerith likes him— this shows IMMENSE significance because it shows that CLOUD wants Aerith to like him, which shows his romantic interest in Aerith. This page canonizes this outcome not simply because it merely mentions it, but it says this particular scene is needed to show Marlene's growth as a character.

And real quickly, I want to tell you that in DISMANTLED Cloud says Aerith's smile is a good purchase, he says she has impressive eyes, and he misses her laugh and smile and compares her smile to a flower---all of this clearly indicate romantic interest. Not to mention the only person he says he wants to be there for is AERITH.


W-what?


Highwind scene... which one? Both haven't been declared the canon outcome so this is stupid talking about an optional scene. Cot shows Cloud and Tifa fighting constantly, lying to each other, being annoyed by one another... how is that a good thing for you? Also, you realize that Barret and Tifa raised Marlene together BEFORE Cloud even was introduced in VII right? And you also realize that Marlene ADOPTED Cloud into Barret and Tifa's family, making him like Tifa's child?


It was not "fake" Cloud--and yes... when someone screams at the top of their lungs that they don't care if the world is destroyed now that a certain someone isn't with them anymore, then yes... it is freaking inarguably romantic. Keep in mind, Cloud said he didn't give a shit about what happened to the planet or its people when TIFA was still alive. If he loved her then he should have wanted to protect the planet FOR HER but instead Cloud wanted everything to end just because Aerith was gone.


I'm beginning to think you've never read that quote...

Kitase: "The event on the airship the night before the final battle was done by Katou as well, wasn't it."
Nojima: "Oh, the bit with that risqué/suggestive dialogue? I wasn't the one who wrote that, that was Katou too."
Interviewer: “Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel", that line, right? That's a rather mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: "Although I remember we had to tone down a version that was too strong."
Nojima: "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was for Cloud to walk out of the chocobo stable in the airship, followed by Tifa leaving while she kept looking around, but Kitase rejected it. But I think perhaps no one expected that line to be so important [laughs]"

Just to clarify, SE never said that Kato wanted a chocobo stable sex scene. All SE said was that the original scene with the risque dialogue was supposed to have taken place in a chocobo stable. Some fans jump to the conclusion that SE is saying sex happened but it seems people forget that just because something is "risque"(AKA suggestive of something sexual) doesn't mean anything actually happened. For all we know, maybe SE toned down the scene by changing the setting because they didn't want people to absolutely think something did happen.


Also, notice how Nojima said the line ISN'T important. If in that scene Cloud and Tifa supposedly boinked then why are the creators so shocked when someone makes the scene out to be something important? They never thought it would be important to people because the scene isn't important, especially to the creators.

Are you shitting me.


Cloti is not canon. Nojima called Cloud AERITH'S lover... on top of all the other facts i've posted... You seem to think that just because you INTERPRET something a certain way then it means what YOU think it does. However, that's flawed logic. There's NO debating the fact that CLoud was defined as Aerith's lover. Cloti cannot be canon when Cloud's the lover of Aerith.

This is just getting ridiculous.


Now, I have to go--I'll probably edit this and add more later.


Didn't you just say Cloud loved Tifa a page ago... of course a cloti post makes sense to you. they haven't made any sense in regards to the LTD yet. They've used fan interpretations but that's it.

lol you have so many different wrong points i guess ill point them out: one post at a time. if you cant even admit cloud was obsessed with tifa how in the world can we move on? so firstly:

you seem to be making Cloud out as if he's some creepy stalker

uh, *DING DING DING DING* you got it! cloud DOES seem a bit off doesnt he? and no, i dont make him seem this way, S/E made him this way. like you asked, no opinons or self thoughts, and im not. im saying what they put out. cloud was following her everywhere she went, blamed her almost death on him, made the promise to her and obsessed over THAT, disobeyed DIRECT ORDERS to keep himself safe just to prove he was strong to tifa, and placed his entire life on the line in CC when tifa was about to pull off his helmet when he got attacked by a monster, trying to save her. and then he begged her not to do it. do you even REMEMBER this? or have you played CC AT ALL?

um, im not sure..did you say:

He had a dim crush on her

dim? dim? dim? DIM? DIM? DIM?!?!?!??

a "dim crush" made him follow where ever she went starting at 8yrs old? a "dim crush" made him try to save her and blame himself when she wasnt there to know it? a "dim crush" made him get into fights, so overcome with rage and sorrow because he though tifa would die? a "dim crush" made him go out of control because of tifa's coma? are you freakin serious? are you sure you want to use "dim crush" for clouds feelings for tifa? the OTHER boys had a "dim crush" on her, if you insist. they just wanted to get laid with her. cloud LOVED her, he had TRUE feelings for tifa, and the outranked all the other boys' attempts. they had "crushes" in her. cloud loved her like a real man loved a woman. thats why he seemed so stalky. if he was 18+ he would have been arrested. he was bein 8yrs old trying to make out these feelings he had for her, and when he made the promise to her, his ultimania says that he left the village, indeed in love with her. (http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/)

A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.
When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the “promise.”

so you can hush up with your "aerith engraved in his heart" bull. it says he that he feels he MUST keep the promise, even if he fulfills if 20trillion times.

hm, what do ya know?

He lifts a collapsed Tifa up in his arms, and upon seeing her aware of him, he smiles gently.

this is TWO WHOLE YEARS AFTER cloud made the promise at 14. but yet he still hid his face from her out of shame, and still saved her, and if he had a "dim crush" on her, wouldnt you think in 2 years cloud would forget about her in shin-ra? but he didnt. and he hadnt even SEEN her for 24 painful months. unless you have video/quotes on this 'dim crush" shizz, dont note it ANY MORE. because it looks like this "dim crush" mess is just a lie.

remember CC?

look at 1:27. again, this is TWO YEARS after cloud left with his "dim crush" and yet we see him quietly and lovingly stroking her "dead" face. then he used the love for her to kill sephy. i guess this is still "dim crush" right?

cloud also kept the promise as zloud - the only time when real cloud came out was with tifa - remember when he "promised' aerith to keep the promise of that "date" and then DITCHED HER? but do you remember when cloud kept the promise to tifa in the bar and told barret to "take care of tifa, ill be fine"? he was zloud already, he had no need to say that? the only way we have to say is that the real cloud came out for that split second, although nearly invisible.

think im lying?

at 10:48 on out, you see him motivated by barret to keep the promise, and at 16:20 we see him order barret to take care of tifa.

at 22:08 we see him "promise" the date with aerith,

and then tries to ditch her at 5:20.

the real cloud reacts with tifa (but in very small amounts), the Z/J cloud reacts with aerith. its not that hard. but then again, he could have this "dim crush" going on. i mean it HAS been 13 YEARS.


O.O

WHOM HE DIMLY FELL IN LOVE WITH

WHAT THE HECK?!

who, in the name of history of love, can dimly fall in love with a person?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!? you had better give me official proof to the link be S/E RIGHT. NOW. they would never be as stupid and as contradictory to put cloud in obsessive feelings to tifa and then turn around and say "yeaup. he was dimly in love with her." tell me, how can you dimly give your life with without any hesitations? how can you dimly hide your face from the girl you have loved "dimly" loved ever since 8yrs old? how can you dimly fulfill the promise you made to the girl you "dimly" love TWO TIMES OVER?! how can you dimly fall in love with a person in the first place?! seriously, what are you smoking?

i see we cant go on any further. i cant even go to point two. this point is post-full enough.

as for:

it is exactly as it said it is, fleeting; as in ceasing to exist. So the childhood crush that he used to have for Tifa has officially died out, meaning his dim feelings for her stopped.

um...he didnt have a crush on her anymore....he was IN LOVE WITH HER. and guess what? cloud isnt a CHILD anymore so why they heck shouls he have CHILDLIKE feelings towards her? of COURSE it wouldn't exist anymore.

you made my point exactly. cloud's original crush was truly love from the start.

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)


"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. " (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)


"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." (CCU, pg. 33)


"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)


"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."
(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)

if cloud's feelings "stopped" where did they start? when aerith died? no, because cloud says

Hey Tifa......I......
There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about. But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say...I guess nothing's changed at all....Kind of makes you want to laugh...

and due to the quotes of

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)


"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. " (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)


"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." (CCU, pg. 33)


"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)


"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."
(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)

and

She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding.

(tifas profile)

ok.....go on. deny it. i cant WAIT for you to come up with some reason to deny THAT. in clouds subconscious it says "AMIST the course of his memories they find the thoughts/feelings they were holdING." which means that in his memories he finds he still loved her, it just wasnt a crush. it was passionate love.

stop saying he was still interested in her.

i never did. i said he was OBSESSED with her.

The creators have said otherwise.

actually they have said they had sex by revealing their feelings to each other.

Did you see Cloud calling himself Zack Fair?
Did you see Cloud recalling memories only Zack and Aerith would know?
Did you see Aerith acting as if Cloud was Zack?
Did you see Cloud or Aerith acting as if they knew each other?
Did you see Cloud or Aerith recalling any of Zack and Aerith's previous romantic interactions?

this is so silly i could cry.

have you seen this?

Compilation Check
What Cloud Inherited from Zack
Under the effect of Jenova’s cells, Cloud mimics his best friend Zack and creates a new persona, but the mental aspects weren’t the only things he received from Zack. His starting equipment, the Buster Sword, was the one Zack used, and in CC Zack uses an ability that looks just like Cloud’s Limit skill “Meteorain”, so from the looks of this, could this battle technique also be handed down from Zack?

In Crisis CoreThe bonds of friendship that grew during his days as a ShinRa trooper.
Age: 14~21
Like in BC, Cloud first appears in CC as a 14 year old ShinRa troop. While still just a grunt, he aims to be in SOLDIER. He strikes up a friendship with Zack, a SOLDIER 1st Class; what influence will he have on Cloud, that would lead to Cloud imitating Zack’s personality… The events running up to that will be shown in CC.

At the start of FFVII Cloud posed as a “cool ex-SOLDIER”, and kept up a cocky front. After it is revealed that he was never in SOLDIER, and he begins to act like himself, but he still doesn’t show his emotions very much. The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story, when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness.

[/QUOTE]

cloud was always cloud...and that was the twist of the game huh?

"hey cloud! you were in SOLDIER after all! isnt that a big twist? isnt it a HUGE twist that you WERENT confused to breaking into pieces in the lifestream? isnt it cool that S/E repeatedly says cloud isnt himself but this clerith says so by asking silly questions so therefore they - the OFFICIAL WORD OF GOD - are wrong? did you know that tifa DOESNT have to help you with your memories because you ALWAYS REMEMBERED THEM?!??!?!!?!? ISNT THIS AWESOME?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?"

yea seems so legit, right?

and thus the "tifa's a lying *itch" ideal comes up. *sigh*

Victoriously? Did you just use that word on a woman that lied to Cloud about his past all so she could have a little longer to think about what she wanted to do (as if she even had to think about such a thing, she should have told him immediately)?

here's an idea 'listo. why dont you stop making up lies and think. tifa NEVER - in all of zlouds time- lied to him. she only didnt TELL him anything because she wanted HIM to remember his memories. tifa isnt cloud. so what good would she do for cloud? she didnt even know HE KEPT THE PROMISE.

omg your points are so silly im not sure if i can answer them all. maybe another time.

 

[The Witch]

First of all, I literally just posted quotes proving Cloud was Cloud, Cloud's crush was dim, and everything else. You keep saying "show me proof" or "liezzz" but you're either choosing to ignore the quotes I provided or you are a troll. The way you type makes me think you're a bit of both.

Second; when you reply you do not have to quote my entire post and then re-quote me some more. It's irritating to have to scroll down through my postx2 and then yours--it stretches the page.

Third, the only quotes you provided were quotes for the HW scenes... you've yet to provide quotes/proof for the "Zloud" argument (are we seriously calling it Zloud?) None of the quotes that you did provide prove anything. We know Cloud took some of Zack's occupational legacies and memories (like stealing Tifa's underwear; if you choose). But that's where it ends. Cloud did not call himself Zack Fair of Gongaga, he did not automatically know who Aerith was, neither of them resumed dating as if they were Zack/Aerith. Cloud did not act like Zack other then mimicking small actions and a few memories. Cloud NEVER once took Zack's FEELINGS. You need to get over this, man.


Also, you realize that this quote;
The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story, when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness.

proves Cloud does not laugh during ANY other part of the game, right? That means Cloud NEVER laughs with Tifa or anyone else. This quote proves Cloud only laughed once during the ENTIRE game... and it was with Aerith. This quote does not say Jenova controlled him to laugh, either. It says that Cloud's ONLY laugh took place during the time Jenova was controlling him but it does not say Cloud laughed because of Jenova made it apart of her plan to make Cloud flirt with Aerith. What would be the point in Jenova manipulating Cloud into doing that? Does that make sense to you? What, could she not complete her evil plan without making Cloud flirt with Aerith? Does that make any sense to you?

Also;

When talking about the “rare smile” which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that “there seems to be something between them”. [taken from Aerith’s info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega]

"...Then Cloud finally fights with Sephiroth, the kids gather around him by the water, he smiles, and Aerith smiles and watches them from a distance..." (Nomura, Reunion Files)

Cloud smiles and Aerith smiles. In other words, THEY ARE SMILING AT EACH OTHER.


Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal"; this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him. (FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 13)

So part of what Cloud's Jenova cells mimicked were actually the real Cloud because it was based on Tifa's memories of him. Furthermore, the FFVII UO goes on to say that Cloud's coolness during Disk One was the real Cloud, not Zack:

After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting "not interested" all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud's personality. (page 180, FFVII Ultimania Omega)

In other words, while Cloud may have mixed up part of his memories with Zack's, the personality there was Cloud. Honestly, when did he ever act as personable and cheerful as Zack? How about never? They act nothing alike!

I find it hilarious that you did not answer my questions;
Did you see Cloud calling himself Zack Fair?
Did you see Cloud recalling memories only Zack and Aerith would know?
Did you see Aerith acting as if Cloud was Zack?
Did you see Cloud or Aerith acting as if they knew each other from years ago?
Did you see Cloud or Aerith recalling any of Zack and Aerith's previous romantic interactions?

If it's so silly you should be able to answer them.

Honestly man, this is getting ridiculous now. You keep avoiding answering anything I say and all you do is say "ZOMG CLOUDZ OBSESSED WIT ZEH TIFA!" or "HE FUCKED HER ON ROCKS WHILE CID WATCHED" or "zOMG IT WAS ZLOUD" and if you're not saying that you're insulting me and talking down to me and the others in every single post. That is all you keep doing and quite frankly your attitude is starting to piss me off.

I was having fun debating this crap with you when you weren't being so insulting. So can you either stop acting this way or get out of this thread?

 

[CassinoChips]

NothingToSeeHere Callisto

If we can't discuss like adults, it gets shut down. I'm the ... what... 3rd? 4th? moderator to step in and say something, so you might want to catch the hint and tone down the rhetoric. Argue the information, not the person.