Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[NothingToSeeHere]

But in your own estimation didn't some of this take place before he was the real Cloud?

I don't know what I'm thinking getting involved in all this but to me both girls were romantically involved with Cloud. This is how I saw it:

- Cloud reunites with Tifa after childhood romance
- Meets Aeris who has a profound impression on him
- Endeavours to save Tifa from the Honeybee Inn because he cares about her
- Endeavours to save Aeris from Shinra HQ because he cares about her
- Goes on date with Aeris or Tifa (or neither), player picks their poison
- Tries to save Aeris in the Forgotten City, distraught at her tragic death because of romantic feelings they shared
- Cloud is incapacitated at Mideel, Tifa stays with him because she cares about him, helps him regain his identity
- Rest of the game he longs romantically for Aeris and bonds romantically with Tifa

That's how it looks to me anyway from having played the game these events actually took place in. What happens in game is fact not something vague a former graphics designer says like "Cloud wore pink socks once" which only serves to fuel the eternal interest in the topic.

I like Tifa and I like Aeris. Cloud meets a girl he liked from his past and slowly redevelops feelings for her. He meets another nice girl and complications immediately arise. I don't need "proof" to understand it.

out of everything i said thats all you point out? 0_. ok XD

anyway yes, he does do those things as fake cloud. i keep saying the real cloud comes out with tifa only. or how ELSE would he tell barret "take care of tifa" when he had no need to? the cloud that goes on the date with aerith (he is forced into it) is zloud. and i want to settle this right now. just because he is torn from her death = romantic love? WHAT romantic love? cloud is sad for a friend's death. just because he doesnt feel romantic to her he screws her over? seriously wtfreeze? cloud LOVES aerith. even as real cloud. so of stinking course he would feel terrible about her death, as well as zack's. i also have no idea what "romantic love" cloud showed as REAL cloud. it says here:

Since 2 years ago, Tifa has been the only one [Cloud] has opened his heart to. Now, his heart is closed even to her.

shouldnt aerith be there if he loved her MORE than tifa? and yet she is the ONLY one for cloud to allow his heart to open to.

also i dont see how you think cloud "redevelops" love for tifa when the point of the game was that he never stopped loving her. clouds subconscious is the pinpoint of the game. how he came to realize himself and the feelings for tifa he had that hadnt simmered down in the least.

From Tifa's profile
She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding.

clouds feelings in the lifestream are from his past and yet they still apply to the current cloud. kid cloud said so to tifa's face. he was still holding his feelings. he always loved her. he never had to "redevelop". thus the highwind scene and living with her lol.

the game (love story wise) was about two girls loving one dude (lets name them orange and purple). the man seems to work romantically towards orange the whole time while purple is left just to look. then an accident happens and purple find out the dude always loved her. he feels very close with orange but its just as a close friend, because he feels the same about his man friend (carlos). in the end orange is with her original lover who happens to be carlos and both couples are where they belong. the end!

(also)

BEST POST EVER!!!
Lynne from TheLifestream.com

Okay, a lot of people are saying that the writers are wrong because Tifa and Cloud aren’t the canon couple. I can bet that if the writers said Cloud and Aerith “confirmed that their feelings match,” Clerith fans wouldn’t have said shit.

Even though to the individual player Cloud may have shown affection to Aerith, it’s ultimately up to the creators of FFVII that say who’s canon and who isn’t. The makers of the Ultimania say that the date scene between Aerith and Cloud were based heavily on Cloud’s behavior–which I’m assuming means his dual personality with Zack Fair at the time. To be honest, that translation for Aerith and Cloud confused me due to the weird grammar. So I can’t really say anything about it. But the Ultimania also said that between Tifa and Cloud, Cloud confirmed that his feelings matched with Tifa’s.

We’ve known throughout the entire game that Tifa loves Cloud and it was quite unbearable to watch Tifa struggle for words. Really unbearable. But if it said that Cloud confirmed that his feelings MATCHED Tifa’s, then we can assume that Cloud loves Tifa as well because they MATCH. Right?

Also, just because the Ultimania said “Cloud confirmed without words,” doesn’t mean that he doesn’t love her. How many love songs for instance, talk about love with no words? It’s not always about being verbal. We all know that smiling (as noted in On the Way to a Smile: Tifa’s case when Cloud smiled/blushed when he told Tifa that everything will be alright since he has Tifa with him), holding hands (if you remember how Cloud and Tifa held hands while leaving the Lifestream together), and sex (to be honest I think people are being indenial when they say that Tifa and Cloud didn’t have sex ), can be a way of proving someone’s love for each other. So using the “without words” excuse doesn’t prove anything.

I’m not saying that Cloud never loved Aerith–but I don’t think it was the same way he felt for Tifa. There’s more instances that lean towards Cloud and Tifa’s case than Aerith. Cloud and Tifa’s promise to always be each other’s heroes, how Tifa helped Cloud piece back together who he really was, and the Highwind scene. It wasn’t just the sex, but the fact that while everyone else in the group had someone or something to go home to, Cloud and Tifa were left alone–and knew that they only had each other left. And in the Lifestream scene, the little Cloud even mentioned that when Tifa admitted that she constantly looked in the newspapers for Cloud’s progress after he left Nibelheim, little Cloud noted that she should tell Cloud that fact when he wakes up, because he’d be happy to hear that. Now why would he be happy with the fact that Tifa always looked out for him? And the fact that little Cloud said that–didn’t the little Cloud symbolize his most pure/innocent personality; the REAL Cloud? Just saying. So I think Cloud and Tifa were the canon couple all along.

Besides, are you really going to take Zack’s true love away from him? That’s messed up… ;(

 

[Harlequin]

I hadn't read your entire post I just read a few posts before and the first few lines of the one I quoted. You probably know more about the FFVII universe than I do but from what I understood playing the game Cloud regained his true identity after both he and Tifa fell into the lifestream in Mideel. I don't think he was truly himself whenever it was just the two of them earlier than that because if I recall correctly he still gassed on about Zack's life to Tifa as if it applied to his but Tifa was too embarrassed for him to correct it. Can't really blame her I'd feel exactly the same way!

What I was talking about was something I understood from having played the game and not having procured background material from a dusty old tome hidden in the darkest recesses of some Japanese comic book store.

The fact that the debate continues to rage on after so many years confirms what is already obvious: from the moment Aeris enters the picture the player is led to believe there is a romantic triangle going on between the three of them and that Cloud is caught in an emotionally compromising situation. As events in the game unfold the situation resolves itself. I don't believe the writers meant this to be something that required background reading to understand, only basic human intuition.

 

[The Witch]

provide videos and quotes WITH LINKS and maybe clerith can even be considered.

You did not answer a single thing in my posts. It's almost infuriating at this point. You did not even respond to this post that I made as a reply to you when you said I was lying about my facts and asked me for direct sources. Short of peeling your eyes open and forcing you to recognize the quotes and reading them, I have no idea how I can get you to read what I'm saying. You keep ignoring everything and then asking the same questions over & over again--even though I've already answered them... more than once.

I've provided the quotes, sometimes I even provided Japanese context, I then provided variants of said quotes, I've provided scans of the quotes... and yet you still insist on asking where I get these quotes from or say that I'm lying.

Can you please tell me how exactly I can continue to discuss this with you when you refuse to accept canon-quotes and then insist on asking me if they're real or not only for me to prove their authenticity to you, to have you then turn around and ignore it all together. I thought you wanted a discussion but it seems like you really are just trolling or something.

maybe because tifa was alive, he wouldnt be saying this stuff to her. ever thought of that? you stinking serious about this? tifa is ALIVE at this point, so why would he say something like that?

You're right... Cloud doesn't care for the planet because Tifa's alive...


In all seriousness, after Aerith died, Sephiroth stood over Cloud as he cradled Aerith's body and Sephiroth laughed and mocked Cloud, saying that Cloud shouldn't be sad because soon the planet and the people will all be dead and gone anyway. After Sephiroth said this, Cloud shouted and said "...SHUT UP." Cloud then continued and said that the planet's destruction didn't matter to him (Cloud) anymore because AERITH was gone.

Cloud is essentially saying that because Aerith is gone, he (Cloud) no longer cares what happens to the planet or the people on it. If Cloud no longer cares for the planet's destruction (and therefore the destruction of its people) then that means he doesn't care what happens to the others, including Tifa.

Why would Cloud stop caring about the planet's ultimate end IF he supposedly loved Tifa?

And in case you can't remember the scene;

Cloud "...Aerith."
(He gently shakes her body.)
Cloud "This can't be real!"
Sephiroth "Do not worry. Soon the girl will become part of the Planet's energy."
Sephiroth "All that is left is to go North. The 'Promised Land' waits for me
over the snowy fields."
Sephiroth "There I will become a new being by uniting with the planet. As
will this girl...”
Cloud "...Shut up."
(Cloud bows his head closer to Aerith, trembling. He abruptly looks up to
Sephiroth.)
Cloud "The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing."
(He slowly turns his head back to Aerith's sleeping face.)
Cloud "Aerith is gone."
Cloud "Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry... or get angry..."
(He holds her body close to his own, bows his head over her, his shoulders heaving as though he is crying.)

So we definitely see Cloud say that the cycle of nature and Sephiroth's plan to destroy the world, and all the people, DOESN'T matter to him anymore because the one thing he cared about was already gone... and WHO did Cloud say was gone? AERITH.

Cloud says he doesn't care about what happens to the planet or the people all because AERITH was gone. He said this in spite of Tifa being alive and well. In fact, he said this when all his friends were around to hear him.

It's funny, you say Cloud loves Tifa... but why would he say this?

I'm not getting back to anymore tonight because I've noticed you never reply in full, so now I'll just handle one argument with you at a time.

I've always been more of a supporter of Clerith if I had to choose one. It just seemed like to me that Cloud cared about Aeris alot more than he did for Tifa. Not saying he didn't care for Tifa, but it seemed like there was something more there with Aeris. Them 2 saving each other, being her body guard, the date in the Golden Saucer, how torn up he was when Sephy stabbed her, reaching for her hand in the North Cave. It just feels like he had feelings for her in terms of a relationship.
And I absolutely adore Aeris too <3 I dont care what anybody says otherwise, thats my belief and I'm sticking to it

*highfives*

You should see how in Dismantled (an official book released by Square) Cloud says Aerith has "impressive eyes" and he says that her smile is a "good purchase". And after she dies Cloud says she used to "smile like a flower" and he says "I'll never hear her innocent laughter ever again..." --really shows how much he misses and adores her little attributes

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I hadn't read your entire post I just read a few posts before and the first few lines of the one I quoted. You probably know more about the FFVII universe than I do but from what I understood playing the game Cloud regained his true identity after both he and Tifa fell into the lifestream in Mideel. I don't think he was truly himself whenever it was just the two of them earlier than that because if I recall correctly he still gassed on about Zack's life to Tifa as if it applied to his but Tifa was too embarrassed for him to correct it. Can't really blame her I'd feel exactly the same way!

What I was talking about was something I understood from having played the game and not having procured background material from a dusty old tome hidden in the darkest recesses of some Japanese comic book store.

The fact that the debate continues to rage on after so many years confirms what is already obvious: from the moment Aeris enters the picture the player is led to believe there is a romantic triangle going on between the three of them and that Cloud is caught in an emotionally compromising situation. As events in the game unfold the situation resolves itself. I don't believe the writers meant this to be something that required background reading to understand, only basic human intuition.

i agree COMPLETELY. is it wasnt for aerith, we ALL would have known who cloud truly wants. but shes here. and there are still people who still think cloud loves aerith when its obvious with CoT and AC and what S/E said theirselves.

like he said:

On the other hand, were there no Aerith, I don’t think anyone would question what’s established by the Highwind scene, the CoT and CoB dialogue, and the family structure with Tifa.

 

[Cardinal Copia]

*highfives*

You should see how in Dismantled (an official book released by Square) Cloud says Aerith has "impressive eyes" and he says that her smile is a "good purchase". And after she dies Cloud says she used to "smile like a flower" and he says "I'll never hear her innocent laughter ever again..." --really shows how much he misses and adores her little attributes

Aww isn't that sweet? That quote was...
I love me some Clerith <3
I REALLY wanna get that book. Isn't it only in Japanese though?
My Japanese language isn't exactly "up to snuff".

 

[The Witch]

Aww isn't that sweet? That quote was...
I love me some Clerith <3
I REALLY wanna get that book. Isn't it only in Japanese though?
My Japanese language isn't exactly "up to snuff".

Yeah, it is sadly. I have both Japanese versions though, and A LOT of it is translated already. Here's a post with a lot of translations: http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/threads/43606-VII-DISMANTLED-BOOK?p=1057027&viewfull=1#post1057027

This book is heavily clerith. Oh, and this same book has this scene;

[Aerith; Inside Cloud's dream before she leaves]

Aerith: "Cloud... can you hear me?
I'm talking to your heart while you sleep right now. I hope this reaches you okay, like when I hear the voice from the planet. Sephiroth is trying to summon Meteor using the Black Materia... He's trying to wound the planet badly. If Meteor really does fall, then everyone's going to die. People, animals, flowers... The life on this planet will disappear completely. The only one who can stop it is the last surviving Cetra. Me. I realize that. That was the duty of the Cetra. So, leave Meteor to me. You just think about yourself, Cloud. Remember your own ways... so you don't have a breakdown. Well, I'm off. When it's all over, we can meet each other again.* "Oh, Cloud... I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I'll never forget it.

I'll never forget you, Cloud..."

See that? Aerith says in a non-optional scene that she and Cloud went on a date at Gold Saucer. This proves the clerith date is canon. It's sorta like how Advent children canonizes Yuffie and Vincent's existence. This single quote is what proves the clerith date is canon, which is just one more thing that proves the romance between Cloud and Aerith.

Oh, and not to mention Nomura said that the time Cloud and Aerith talked in the park in Midgar (the scene before the honey bee inn fiasco) was a "date". So technically, Cloud and Aerith have gone on TWO dates.

How anyone can say they're not in love is beyond me, why would Square show them dating if they weren't intended?

*shamelessly advertises my clerith club* join today

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

@Callisto

you have some nerve lol! you just cant expect to type up a post as big as yours and want the person to reply in seconds flat. the other people i talk to has littler posts so logically ill talk to them before i talk to you.

and im not saying your quotes are lies. just give me the stinkin links to it. you seem to put up links to your previous post (like im so stupid i cant see the gigantic post there. its kinda hard to ignore.) but dont give any for the quotes. if you can type up such a monstrous post everytime (i dont mind big posts though) surely it wont hurt to add those. i will certainly reply in due time, like i previously have. you, sis, will just have to wait your turn. and considering im the only cloti arguing here you dont have much choice for otherwise. : D

@General Beatrix

why on earth do you like clerith? it so mary sue! >.<

 

[Cardinal Copia]

@General Beatrix

why on earth do you like clerith? it so mary sue! >.<

I just love how sweet, innocent, and caring of a character she is. Call it Mary Sue, call it what you want, but she is hands down my favorite female in the FF VII universe. I <3 me some Aeris/Aerith.
And I find her backstory to be very interesting and has me "drawn in" to her character.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I just love how sweet, innocent, and caring of a character she is. Call it Mary Sue, call it what you want, but she is hands down my favorite female in the FF VII universe. I <3 me some Aeris/Aerith.
And I find her backstory to be very interesting and has me "drawn in" to her character.

ok then. its hard for many people to not like mary sues. personally aerith is one of the best females but tifa hands DAYOWN! dat gas chamber scene.....OH YEA!!!! but i think she is super emotionally weak, and CC proves this out. tifa is stronger than her i guess.

 

[Dionysos]

-Let us remain on the topic of the LTD. We are starting to deviate slightly from this in the posts.

By all means appraise Aerith, Tifa, and discuss Mary Sues, but remain focused on the Love Triangle Debate aspect itself as well.-

 

[The Witch]

Cloud belongs with tifa. Tifa truly cared about cloud and cared for him while get got mako poisoning and supported him. Tifa is cool beautiful and badass. Which is more than what can be said for aeris.Aeris is ugly and manipulative and only cares about herself Aeris never loved cloud . She only wanted to use him as a sex slave because zack escaped her clutches through the sweet release of death.Aeris just views cloud as a replacement for zack. Plus aeris is dead : ) you cloudxaeris fans want cloud to make out with a corpse?

Ok, that was funny.



I'm just gonna leave this here:

Nomura, concerning Aerith’s death:

"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love.We found this was the case in both games and movies, both eastern and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?”



Nomura talks about *AVOIDING* the cliche’ where the, "protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love.” So how did they avoid the cliche’? Instead of having the protagonist die, they had the person the protagonist was in love with die.

Kitase follows that up with this:

"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think ‘If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.’ These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith’s death relatively early in the game.Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.”


Kitase wanted to express, through Aerith’s death, what it feels like when you lose someone that you, "LOVED VERY MUCH". Then, he relates it directly to Cloud by saying sometimes people think, "If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently". It is obvious that Cloud’s love for Aerith and her death was meant to highlight exactly what Kitase wanted to convey.
This should make it undeniable that the intent of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship was a tragic *LOVE* story.

Source: http://dansantcaparet.tumblr.com/post/59730520477/more-canon-evidence-in-favor-of-cloud-x-aerith

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

(article, sorry didnt know where else to put it, and anyway its on-topic.)

ok, so here's some more insight on the highwind scene for some unbelievers.

lets start it off with this epic pure win post! : D

(very long people)

First, scans of the page in question -- pg. 394 of the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...Seed/ltdend.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...ed/ltdover2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...ed/ltdover3.jpg


Quote (MagitekElite)
It makes no sense because you would not translate "合う" as "to match" in that sentence.


You would, actually. Here's the Japanese sentence:
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う。

If you break that sentence down, you get this:
ティファ=Tifa
の=”of”
おかげで=”thanks to”
自分=”oneself”; “himself” for this sentence
を=particle identifying recipient of an action
取り=”to take” or “to receive”
戻した=past tense of “return”; with the previous, it means “regain”
クラウド=Cloud
は=particle identifying main subject; Cloud, in this case
セフィロス=Sephiroth
と=”with”
最後=”last” or “final”
の=still means “of”
戦い=”battle”
を=still the particle identifying recipient of an action
前に=”before”
言葉=”words”
では=”in”
伝えられない=”not transmitted” or “not conveyed”
想い=”feelings”
を=you should know this one by now
彼女=”she” or “her”
と=”with”
確とかめ=”confirmation”
合う=”to match” or “to agree with”

Thus: “Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

If one wanted, they could render 言葉では伝えられない as something like “without conveying in words” or “while at a loss for words,” but they’re still arriving at the same conclusion: Cloud and Tifa confirmed that their feelings for one another match, and did so without using words.

Also, let me clarify further that the context of the page is the romantic couples of Final Fantasy. This is the heading of the page:

"For the One I Love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two's value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come."

Note especially that the Japanese word for "love" here is "renai" (恋愛), which refers specifically to romantic love.

I'll include the entirety of the Japanese text at the end of this post, as well as my translation of it.


Quote (MagitekElite)
The people who have translated this seem to think that Aerith never loved Cloud and they seem to think that because Tifa/Cloud's date was shown (as well as Aerith's) that Tifa's is canon and they are giving the part they misunderstood a different meaning.


The person (singular; i.e. me) who translated it does not believe any such thing. As I've explained to you on other forums than these, MagitekElite, and as is clear in the article I've written about the Love Triangle Debate for my FFVII Plot Analysis FAQ.

Furthermore, while I would venture to argue that Tifa's date is more likely to be canon than any of the others (it is, after all, the only one that fits the name, "Words Drowned by Fireworks"), I also think it's wholly irrelevant to the matter being discussed here, as the Ultimania page being discussed dismisses the date sequence as irrelevant.


Quote (MagitekElite)
I'm not calling them out on it either, its just I know who has translated this and they did it all wrong.


You say this over and over, yet never explain why. You even admit that you don't know the Japanese language enough to "explain" why it's wrong.


Quote (MagitekElite)
They never had sex though.


Whatever they did was physical:
-Cloud couldn't find the words to say how he was feeling.
-Tifa said words aren't the only way to show people how you feel.
-Pan to the sky and fade out. Fade in, they're cuddled together.
-This FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania page says they confirmed their feelings to match without using words.
-Tifa's profile in the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pg. 27) describes their feelings as "feelings of desire for one another":
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う
-Kazushige Nojima, FFVII's primary writer, has described Tifa's line about not using words to show how one feels as "risqué" (きわどい in Japanese)

This, of course, refers to the high affection version of the Highwind scene -- which is the only one included in SE's FFVII International Memorial Album script of the game (pp. 241-242), one of only four so-called "Impressive Scenes" to have their scripts featured at the beginning of the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania's section on FFVII (pg. 199), and the version of the Highwind scene described in the same book's summary of the game's story (pg. 232): そして、ふたりきりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う ( "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match").

There's really no way around this one.

Whatever happened was physical. Was it sex? Probably. Does it matter? Not especially.

The important parts of all this are that their feelings are said to be feelings of desire for one another, described in the context of "renai" (romantic love), and it's said that they confirmed their feelings to match.

We know how Tifa feels about Cloud. If their feelings match, then he feels romantic love toward her as well.


Quote (Del S)
Alternative translations will paint different pictures, both sides will decry the others as falsifying their translations ...


You are most certainly correct. In the past couple of weeks, I've been called a liar more times than I care to be over a fictional pairing.

That's why I'm here to set the record straight and provide the Japanese text for those who can identify its meaning themselves -- and advise anyone who can't but still cares to check out Babelfish, Google's translator, or popjisyo.com (especially the latter) to make up their own mind.

I have nothing to hide. Everyone who's accused me of falsying this translation, however, has failed to provide an explanation as to why it's wrong. Meanwhile, I break down the sentence word by word and show why it isn't.

Typically, this results in those accusing me of making things up never acknowledging the point.


Quote (somera)
Since it's right above a picture of Squall and Rinoa hugging, it hints at a Cloud x Tifa pairing, BUT at the bottom there's a box talking about the different forms of love in the FF series, e.g. Galuf and Kururu (sp?) in FFV. So, no, I don't think that settles the debate.


Notice that the box at the bottom specifically says that the relationships discussed there are different from those in the main body of the page -- "恋愛以外の「愛」に関する場面" ("Scenes involving 'love' other than romantic love").

In other words, the relationships discussed elsewhere are about romantic love. This includes the Cloud and Tifa entry.


With all that addressed, here's the Japanese text of the whole page, followed by my translation of it. Note that all of the scenes in question for the couples of other games feature them in their moments of realization/declaration.

Also, notice that the date sequence for FFVII -- which does depict the Cloud and Aerith date -- also dismisses the scene as irrelevant by noting that who Cloud goes on the date with is determined by the player; something it does not do for the scene with Cloud and Tifa.

Without further ado:


Quote
『愛する人のために』
長い旅を通じて築かれる、主人公たちの恋愛感情。ときにはふたりが引き裂かれることもあるが、お互いを大事に想っていればどんな難局でも乗り越えていけるという気持ちは、彼らに大きな力を与えてくれる。

「III」真面目な兵士と素直な姫
サス―ン城の兵士と姫という身分ちがいの恋に、イングスは自分の気持ちを押し殺そうとするが、サラは彼への想いを隠そうとしない。

「IV」ふたりだけの世界
捕らわれていたロ―ザを救い出したとき、セシルは自分の本心を打ち明ける。再会したふたりは、人目も気にせず強く抱き合った。

「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の―員　--　お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。

「VII」秘密のデ―ト
ゴ―ルドソ―サ―で仲間のひとりから誘いを受けりクラウド。誰が誘いにやってくるかは、それまでのクラウドの行動しだい。

「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う。

「VIII」魔女リノアの騎士
魔女として封印される直前のリノアを、無心で奪還するスコ―ル。「魔女でもいいさ」
という彼の言葉は、リノアの心に安らぎを与えた。

「IX」守るべき者のため
ひょんなことから、スタイナ―にとってベアトリクスはかけがえのない女性となった。祖国と彼女を守るため、スタイナ―は剣を振るう。

「IX」生命のしらべに導かれ
イ―ファの樹で仲間の前から姿を消したジタン。彼は「いつか帰るところ」へ帰るために生きのび、愛いい人の待つ場所にもどってきた。

「X」マカラニ―アの泉で
ずっと信じていた寺院に裏切られユウナは心のよりどころを矢った。ティ―ダは、そんな彼女を支えていくことを決意する。

番外編
恋愛以外の「愛」に関する場面
「FF」シリ―ズでは男女間の恋愛だけでなく、さまざまな形の「愛」が描かれている。「FFV」におけるガラフとクルルをはじめとした家族愛や、「FFVI」のエドガ―とマッシュのような兄弟愛、「FFIX」のエ―コとモグのような種族を越えた情愛なだがその一例だ。また、「FFVI」においてティナが「愛」という感情を知ることで戦う力を取りもどすシ―ンは、「愛」そのものを語るうえで、はずせない場面のひとつだろう。

[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
一度は戦う力を矢ったティナは、「愛する者のために戦う」ということを知って力を取りもどし、ふたりび戦いに身を投じる。



Quote
FOR THE ONE I LOVE
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.

III – The diligent soldier and the meek princess
The love between the soldier and princess of Sasune Castle was divided by social status; Ingus tried to supress his feelings, but Sara would not hide hers.

IV – World just for the two of us
When rescuing Rosa, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.

VI – Result of the chance encounter
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.

VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

VIII – Witch Rinoa’s knight
Just before she can be sealed due to being a witch, Squall retakes Rinoa. “I don’t care that you’re a witch” are his words to her, putting her mind at ease.

IX – For the one I must protect
Beatrix becomes the woman to whom Steiner will let no harm befall. For his homeland’s protection and for hers, Steiner brandishes his sword.

IX – Guidance on an investigation of life
Zidane left the company of his companions in front of the Iifa Tree. He survived for the sake of going back to “the place I’ll return to someday,” where the one he loves was waiting for him.

X – Macalania Spring
Yuna is betrayed by the temples she had completely believed in and had made the foundation of her life. Tidus decides to comfort her in this way.

Extra Thread
Scenes involving “love” other than romantic love
In the “FF” series, there’s not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted. In “FFV,” there’s familial love between Galuf and Krile, as well as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin depicted in “FFVI”; and in “FFIX,” there’s an instance of love between Eiko and Mog that goes beyond race. Also, in “FFVI,” there’s the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called “love”; when talking about “love,” this is a scene that shouldn’t be left out.

[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
During the event where Terra recovers her ability to fight, she regains her power and says “I’ll fight to protect the people I love”; she then throws herself back into battle.


So, go through all of that, guys, and make up your own minds. I'm not asking you to believe me simply because I said so.

But I am asking you not to believe someone who says I'm lying when their only justification is that they said so. Thanks for listening.

this is done by none other than Squall of SeeD, (whom of which i am a HYOOGE fan of) the author of his 6 page article on the LTD, which is even more awesome (http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...angle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/ ).

and for this one. it was a question of someone who wanted to know what the couples of FFVII actually are.

(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081202063019AAeOIUr)

who actually loves who? i'm playing FF VII Crisis Core and in the game Zack and Aerith are lovers. but i read from somewhere that in FF VII Cloud loves Aerith. if this statement is true, is she loves Cloud too? what about Tifa? i'm not playing FF VII so i don't know exactly the whole story.

So somebody please tell me the whole story!!!

by ::sMiLeY-gIrL::. the reply is:

*****SPOILERS********


Zack and Aeris were dating. Cloud had a childhood crush on Tifa, which is what caused him to try to join SOLDIER. Zack dies and through a strange set of circumstances, Cloud takes on part of Zack's life without realizing it. Cloud and Aeris then meet, and due to Cloud looking much like Zack and practically pretending to be him, she kinda gets attracted to him, and he to her. But then she dies. Cloud also still wanted Tifa, and after she ends up swimming around in his head, sorting out his memories for him, they get a connection, and it is suggested near the end of the original FF7 game that they have sex. Then at the end of Advent Children, you see Aeris and Zack in spirit forms walk off into the sunset together.



*****END SPOILERS*******

So I'd say, while there was something between Cloud and Aeris, it never really had time to develop into much.

by MagicianTrent


now, i know you may (ok, you most definitely possibly are) be all like "Yahoo ANSWERS?! REALLY BRO!?!??!?! XD XD XD LOL LAWLS!!" but notice: all he does is note what the GAMES say. AFTER he puts "end spoilers", he then puts in HIS OPINION, saying that maybe there could have been clerith, but there most certainly was only a chance for it.

as you can see, from the quotes above, normal, regular thinking, logical people admit that even if there was sex displayed under the highwind, they wouldnt be surprised.

luckily, is has been proven. like this quote says:

“Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/)

what else would you have thought would have happened? sadly, there are plenty of a person who think otherwise. FAR from otherwise.

alright, i'll take this into separate steps.

The box in the link shows that all love in Final Fantasy games aren't romantic. So that could possibly include FFVII.
you mean this?

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/

Extra Thread
Scenes involving “love” other than romantic love
In the “FF” series, there’s not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted. In “FFV,” there’s familial love between Galuf and Krile, as well as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin depicted in “FFVI”; and in “FFIX,” there’s an instance of love between Eiko and Mog that goes beyond race. Also, in “FFVI,” there’s the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called “love”; when talking about “love,” this is a scene that shouldn’t be left out.

this is a bit self-explanatory. the box already points out all the platonic love couples that S/E made in all the final fantasy games. cloud and tifa (as well as Yudus and company, but we're talking about VII) arent there. there really isnt anything else to say. VII is S/E's most successful game of all time, so we can be 100% sure that S/E would be certain and pay special attention to put VII in the box, if they were platonic. besides, i suggest you dont note it because if the couple of VII are platonic, since you get no clerith, considering you want clerith to be as romantic as cloti is.

So why did they put up Aerith's date before they showed Cloud and Tifa?
oh, this.

VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

they put up aerith's date because its for people who think it's clerith. they have said that

Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

so its not "real." i have once said that none of the dates (including tifa's) are canon. i'll rephrase it into this. its not written or depended sorely on the the plot, so none of the dates have an official outcome. i believe that the dates canon, separately, to each character that dated cloud alone. but its not what i believe thats the case. if thats the case, i might as well stop now. its not people opinions that work things out in this type of discussion/debate. what S/E is doing is waving off all the dates as irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the original couple. it doesnt count. they used aerith's date for the people who think its written into the plot of cloud's love life. unless you want cluffie to be canon, i suggest a quiet down of this.

What does "without words" actually mean?
isnt it obvious? well, for some clarity:

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs).

still dont get it? well, maybe YOU do, but there are still a majority that insist that the "toned down" is of the backround or something else.

1. who in the world tones down a backround?
2. be honest. is that what you FIRST thought of when you read the quote?

even if someone would tone down a BACKROUND, this wouldnt be the case.

if you read the quote again, you will see that the entire group agreed on the subject at hand; it wasnt even argued. it was how displayed, or implied, that was debated. the hint was taken down, just for being too extreme. anyway, the implication was turned down, not the actual matter at hand. if it wasnt, Kitase would have added it. it wasnt rejected because he didnt like it, personally. it was for the public's sake. so, without a stretch, we are given another sign that possibly something sexual happened.

They could have hugged/held each other.
let's look into these suggestions. Nojima said that the scene was mature and risque, the first in a FF game.
is hugging/holding each other mature? and at that, following directly after the risque (sexually hinting) line, would that make sense? even toddlers can hug/hold each other, so it cant be that mature in the least. maybe it would be mature, in a E rated game. this is a T rated series, so the maturity is shot up another notch.



anyone who suggests this means anything else but platonic needs to see a dang psychologist.

so no, hugging isnt mature, even then its not in the sense Kitase meant it to be, and it doesnt follow a risque scene at all. it just doesnt make sense.

furthermore:

IV – World just for the two of us
When rescuing Rosa, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.

"tightly embracing" is explicitly meaning hugging/holding each other, and this is a very early installment in FF, far from any hints of VII's coming. Nojima said that was a mature scene, possibly the first in FF, and hugging isnt new in the least (seeing this was a very early game), so this isnt it.

They could have talked all night.
this makes zilcho sense. didnt tifa tell cloud not to use words for how he felt, and S/E confirms that cloud followed her suggestion without hesitations?

(sub question of topic)

But look at this:

, “At that moment, according to Tifa’s affectional rating for Cloud, the event of ‘dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn’ and ‘Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance’ will be different.”

sure.

and look at this:

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/3/)

A second counterargument related to the Highwind scene exists in the form of a line from the Final Fantasy VII: Kaitai Shinsho (pg. 189).
In a section describing the different scenes that can emerge as a result of Cloud’s affection rating is a paragraph related to the Highwind scene.
Here, a line says, “At this time, depending on Cloud’s affection rating for Tifa, the 2 events involving ‘dialogue exchanged between them from dusk to
dawn’ and ‘Tifa’s lines and reaction to learning that everyone may have seen (or heard) that situation’ will be different.”
The same line has been translated by Chibica of the Cloud x Aerith forums as, “At that moment, according to Tifa’s affectional rating for Cloud, the event of ‘dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn’ and ‘Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance’ will be different.”


From this, some have taken the meaning that Cloud and Tifa talked from dusk until dawn — the implication being that there was no sexual interaction between them. This, however, is a misreading of the line.
The line refers not to an instance of Cloud and Tifa talking from dusk until dawn, but, rather, to the dialogue they happen to exchange between dusk and dawn. At dusk, they have a conversation where the lines are affected by Cloud’s affection rating for Tifa. At dawn, the lines are again affected by the rating.
In addition, the line is speaking of the dialogue that occurs in both versions of the scene, not one or the other. We know from simply watching either the high affection or low affection versions of the scene that Cloud and Tifa do not talk from dusk until dawn in either.
In the low affection version, Cloud suggests the two go to sleep shortly after their conversation begins. And in both versions, Cloud awakens Tifa shortly before dawn, meaning there was no conversation between them throughout the entire night.

this makes sense since S/E says absolutely no words were given, in either low or high version.
moreover, what would they talk about? and at that, all night? the HW scene strongly suggests they did something all evening (or at least for quite a while) and it was because they made it that way on purpose. no, they couldnt have talked, and they didnt. something physical happened.

Sex doesn't mean love, and it doesn't mean mature.
you are partly right. sex has been (and is and will be) used for selfish means, not for love at all, and its definitely not 100% used maturely, seeing teenagers and AIDS and all.
but this was mature. Nojima said it was a risque and mature scene. in fact, the words "risque" and "mature" are used in the exact order i used. so it was sexual and mature. this was seen in Nojima's eyes as this. not me.
sex also doesnt mean love. but, as above proves, this was too. S/E says that cloud gave his feelings to tifa (and tifa to cloud) and they were an infinite mirror. they matched. WITHOUT WORDS. cloud was trying to tell tifa how he felt, but tifa told him words werent the only way for these kind of feelings to be expressed. there was no talking, there was no hugging. sex, for it is sometimes used in selfish and immature ways, was not the case for this. is was romantically and equally given. also note that the word used for her feelings about cloud is "desire" from the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pg. 27). since cloud's feelings match tifa's......

and the holes to worm through besides this one are disappearing as we speak.

so lets be in Kitase's shoes alright?
we want something that was never introduced in a FF game before, maybe a bit risque, and one of the people on the team give you a list.

1. hugging
2. talking
3. a risque and mature intimacy overnight (or throughout)

hugging has been done, and so has talking, so whats the last on the list?

Spoiler

1. NO hugging
2. NO talking
3. green sign on the last one!

now, there can be mature talks or, at least, the subject of the talking.

1. what would they talk about that would last more than 2 minutes?
2. even if you could find such a thing, no talking was done anyway.

They simply could have been comforting each other.
they could have. but they didnt. the quote ( in spoiler below) says that their feelings matched and were displayed together. it wasnt a case of "Hey, I've never gotten laid before, and I'm going to die tomorrow, so.....wanna help me out?
*wink wink nudge nudge*"
it wasnt the case of of TFS's version of Krillen from DBZ (he desperately doesnt want to die a virgin).

Spoiler

(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

in addition:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."




(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)


"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "




(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)


"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."




(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."




(CCU, pg. 33)


"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."




(FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)


"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

(U20 Scenario, pg. 394)


"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."


And for good measure, everything else that's ever been said about the scene:


(FFVIIUO, pg. 27; complete entry)


"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. The next morning, she departs for the Northern Crater along with her companions, who returned.


'Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking......'
-Said to Cloud, when he is at a loss for words while they're alone


(FFVIIUO, pg. 39)


"Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together. Woman's intuition is as perceptive as ever, no?"

[Screenshot caption]
Upon returning to the airship, Yuffie will say 'Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?' regardless of the contents of the conversation of Cloud's conversation."

and these:

If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."
(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"Night before the final battle......After stopping Hojo's recklessness and before heading to the Northern Crater, the conversation scene with Tifa can diverge drastically depending on Tifa's affection rating. When the affection rating is low, the conversation scene where the two spend the evening is candid and rather short. In the scene on the bridge the next morning, Tifa asks 'Were you listening?' and taps her foot. On the other hand, if the affection rating is high, the two spend the evening in focused conversation, and on the bridge, Tifa asks 'Were you watching?' and collapses in embarassment."

FFVIIUO, pg. 201)


[Screenshot caption]


"Before the final battle......
Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.
(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)


"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

now, it may look like the high affection isnt canon since it is noted "if its low, if its high", but look at these.

(FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242)[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game]


(U20 Scenario, pg. 199)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book]

and again, the high affection version is only noted in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, so this blanks out the low affection as not counting and non-canon.

and i would like to note this quote again:

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."
(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

would tifa's "striking smile" mean anything of the means of "let's hug/cuddle all night"? and when she has mature adult feelings for the man she loves (who reciprocates her feelings)?

Why didn't they show it already? Like in the game afterwards?
Nojima already said the line alone was almost breaking the lines. and as for scenes like X, where we see the clear making out of Tidus and Yuna, S/E had most likely gotten more and more confident, seeing the rating of games has changed overtime. the chocobo stable was left out because the implication was too explicit. anyway, he notes that they maybe should have included it so maybe all this stretching of the HW scene would have never began.

however, for those who admit something did happen under the highwind, but absolutely refuse to admit that certain "something", please note: they couldnt have possibly hugged. it was done before and its not sensible to a risque and mature scene. remember: it was romantically intimate, and given to each other with no objections. this has possibly never been done in a FF game before, and logically follows the risque line and mature setting.
i once even refused to admit it, but according to the truth, ultimately gave in. there is a 99.9% (if not 100%) chance there was a wanted intimate intercourse, or there was some serious making out.
but think: cloud and tifa have had this feeling within them, hiding it for YEARS, slowly building up, and when they are finally alone and are dying inside to show how they both feel...all there is...is just some smooching?

yeah...not seein' it.

EDIT:
They couldn't have had sex on rocks. That's extremely uncomfortable.
i could care less if it was inside a pickle jar. the quotes say something sexual happened. but yes, having sex on rocks WOULD seem a bit ouchie, right? no arguments on that. well, if you look at this quote again:

"Before the final battle......Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)

you will see that cloud and tifa's little party was in the grass. much more comfortable than rocks, dont you think? so you got your wish. this is an example i have been arguing about months, that why could cloud and tifa have sex on rocks when there was grass all around them? finally, my hunch was right.

SO:

if you refuse to admit cloud and tifa made love that night, something romantic happened with no hugging or talking. maybe in the remade version S/E will make the scene that was displayed in the first place, but thanks to S/E and Squall of Seed, we know for certain: we aren't leaving this scene without at least a hint something romantic happened. and it happened because they made it that way, because their feelings matched.

thanks yous for readin'.

P.S. CALLISTO

i am working on replying to you AT THIS MOMENT. dont get all hateful on me.

 

[The Witch]

Why haven't you gotten back to anything I've said? Just because you keep copying and pasting fan opinions doesn't mean you've proven anything. I'm asking if you're going to be getting back because I answered your arguments and you've yet to reply. This is a debate thread, if all you want to do is fangirl about cloti then do it in the Cloti club.

But when you tell someone to counter your arguments and then that person provides proof you should at least respond.

Can you please respond to me. Before I tackle that wall of text you just posted I want to be sure that you'll actually respond this time.


For example; I'll say it once again. Cloud has officially been called Aerith's "koibito"--which means lover in Japanese. This quote from Case of Lifestream: White PROVES that Cloud is Aerith's lover, in other words--they were romantically together.

I don't care what "quotes" you think you have that means something, or how many "proofs" you think you have about an optional scene. The fact of the matter is that Cloud has officially been called Aerith's lover.

Cloud is Aerith's lover. Throw in the fact that Cloud and Aerith were dating in the actual game (both dates are canon, btw--I've already proven it a few pages ago).

Case closed.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Yes. Case of Tifa says that Tifa and Marlene ALWAYS slept together Tifa also tells Cloud to drink in HIS OWN room when he turns her down about joining him in drinking.

oh. THAT argument. dont worry, that can easily be shut down by:

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/4/)
That said, it has been suggested that the bed visible in Cloud’s office in Advent Children identifies the room as his bedroom when considered along with a line from Case of Tifa. In the official translation included with the North American Limited Edition release of Advent Children, Tifa tells Cloud at one point, “Then drink in your room.”


Though the original Japanese line is absent a possessive reference for the room — she literally just says, “Drink in room” — contextually, it makes sense to identify it as Cloud’s. That said, another line in the story shortly before that — and set on the same day — refers to the room simply as “the room Cloud used as an office” — not “Cloud’s room” or “the room Cloud slept in.” This, despite the story referring to Marlene and Denzel’s room as “the children’s room.”


As well, the last paragraph of the story refers to the room once again as “Cloud’s office,” not his room.


What’s more, the room is absent the barest of amenities beyond the bed and office desk. The spare tires laying to one side give even less an impression that this is a room lived in rather than worked in. Minimalist as Cloud may or may not be, to have not acquired so much as a dresser or nightstand in two years seems unlikely, even for him.

By comparison, the children’s bedroom is lavishly furnished — though it really just looks like an ordinary room by any other measure — including
beds that actually look comfortable.


That Cloud would take the time and have the thorough compulsion to customize a motorcycle, adorn himself with a wolf-themed outfit, cell phone and jewelry — which themselves are tied to the motorcycle because of its name, Fenrir – and to decorate his desk, but not the time to provide his bedroom with a simple piece of furniture for storing anything he would need on a day-to-day basis is a little ridiculous and out of place.

For that matter, given his customized clothing and bike — the latter of which he was willing to exchange a lifetime of free drinks and meals at Seventh Heaven for — as well as the sophisticated gadgetry implemented in his bike and Fusion Sword, Cloud hardly gives the impression of being an ascetic. He clearly appreciates the finer things in life.


Given the strange hours Cloud worked because of his job, it makes a lot more sense that the office he used for work just had an extra bed for crashing in without waking up anyone else. After all, since Barret had stayed there for a while, it’s not that strange for an extra bed to be around, and there likely aren’t more than three bedrooms anyway since Denzel doesn’t have one of his own.


Counterarguments to the ideas discussed above include the observation that Case of Tifa says Marlene slept with Tifa up until at least the night that Barret left — the implication being that if Cloud and Tifa had just officially entered a romantic relationship, they should probably be sleeping together. Not an unreasonable assumption, though not a deal breaker either.

They had just built a new home out of the ruins of Midgar at that time, and only been sleeping in the new place for a week by the time Barret left. Furthermore, this statement is only known to apply as far as that first week — a period in which it would have made sense for someone to sleep with a child so young to help her adjust to all that had changed in her life and become comfortable with her new surroundings.


The next time reference is made to Marlene’s sleeping arrangements, she has her own bed in the room with Denzel.


When Marlene made this transition is left unidentified. As such, it can’t be said that she went back to sleeping with Tifa right after Barret left any more than it can be said that she never slept with her again.


This particular matter is more or less rendered moot by the knowledge that Marlene is no longer sleeping with Tifa later in the story. We must look elsewhere for refutations.

so......sorry. still wrong.

Just to clarify, SE never said that Kato wanted a chocobo stable sex scene.

why in the heck do you keep saying that? i dont know - for the life of me - why you keep bringing this up. do you think this will shut down of what i say or something? I KNOW. you dont need to "clarify" a single thing. ITS AS OBVIOUS AS IT GETS. i never insisted on WHERE they had sex. i am arguing that they HAD sex, period.

Also, notice how Nojima said the line ISN'T important.

LOL XD where the heck did he say this?!?!!!?

he said no one expected the line to BE so essential to the scene!

im seriously considering if you have even read right. >.>

They never thought it would be important to people because the scene isn't important, especially to the creators.

......wow. this is what you get from this quote? im utterly floored. where in the quote does it say that the creators didnt say for it to be important? he said the line IS important! and if it isnt why is it one of the 4 most impressive parts in the ENTIRE GAME? funny how the dates didnt make it

Nope. You might not "see" it but you "read" it...

It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.

“Shall I join you?” There was something she wanted to talk to him about.

“I want to drink alone.”

Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, “Then drink in your room.” - CASE OF TIFA

See how Tifa tells Cloud to drink in HIS room? Yeah, this proves Cloud and Tifa hav separate rooms and do not share beds.

proved that already. look again.

Tifa and Marlene ALWAYS shared a bed together (in a platonic-motherly sense)

yea no kidding. i thought tifa was trying to get laid with a 6 year old girl. go figure.

and you just contradicted yourself. your words are that they "always sharED" a bed, meaning it in the past tense since you used the "ed". you just proved cloud and tifa share the same room (if not bed)!

the quote you use also says that marlene's and tifa's bed was also of the past because they use the word "slept" (past tense once again). then you turn around and use the PRESENT tense.

So the creators HAVE said Cloud & Tifa do not share rooms or beds.

we're jumping around from past to present with your logic. what the heck is your argument? its all over the place.

so what have we learned today?

marlene and tifa's bed was OF THE PAST and cloud and tifa's bed is of THE PRESENT. i didnt even have to come up with that one. YOU made it yourself, with the contradictions you made. thank you very much! you just proved a cloti example! how does a clerith like you feel?

A link? You mean a scan of the page?

no. a link. like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThvR5-DCMBY

dont tell me you dont know what links are.

Both "dim" and "fleeting" imply the same thing

woah WOAH! who told you THAT in english class?



(https://www.google.com/search?q=fle...i57j5j69i59j0.3228j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

\fleet·ing
ˈflētiNG/Submit
adjective
1.
lasting for a very short time.

does it say dim in the entire sentence? thank you and i hope the people in america get smarter schools.

かされた本当の願い
幼いころのクラウドは、同年代の者たちから孤立し、自分は特別だと思いこもうとする、ねくれた子どもだった。そんな彼にとって大切だったのがティファ——淡く幼い恋心が、 精神世界にて明かされる。

hm...i wonder. who gave you that translation? because the last sentence also says that "in the spirit world Tifa WAS important to him like that". again a thing of the past. his feelings now truly have a more mature feeling to her, since kid cloud said adult cloud WILL BE overjoyed to know by the simple fact of her looking in the news.

that quote is a little confusin' :T if you support clerith XD

Like I said before, it turns out Cloud's "crush" wasn't as "obsessive" or "great"

yes it was. fleeting and dim mean two different things.

as you claim it was.

actually, i didnt "claim" it. S/E said so themselves. im just quoting what they say. i have nothing to say on this debate by myself. i just quote official statements.

Compilation Check
A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.
When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the “promise.”

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/)

it says right here he was obsessed with her. not NOW, but he WAS obsessed with her nonetheless.

And no, he was not obsessed with her,

yes he was.

his crush was to the same extent as the rest of the boys in their hometown

so much he disobeys DIRECT ORDERS FROM HIGHER RANKS to prove his promise to tifa? yeah, im pretty sure every boy did this on a regular day to day basis.

You're assuming the high affection version is canon.

no, once again, I'M not saying anything. S/E is.

Of possibly greater significance to this matter than the CC Ultimania’s statement, however, is pg. 232 of the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, which summarizes the stories of each Final Fantasy. There, under a heading that reads “The time of the last two before the final battle with Sephiroth,” is the script of the high affection version of the scene, along with two screenshots — one of Tifa saying the risque line from the high affection version, and the other of Cloud and Tifa sleeping against each other:

The low affection version of the scene, meanwhile, isn’t spoken of at all — even while all four versions of the Gold Saucer date receive mention (pg. 225):

All this, then, makes how that scene played out rather undebatable as well.

so no, the highwind scene high version is canon.

Optional scenes (when they have not been declared the canon outcome)

cute. where is this said? clerith.com?

So while you might think what happens in these optional scenes is significant it really doesn't matter because at the end of the day that scene could very well be the outcome that ISN'T canon.

how can NEITHER be canon? one HAS to be. and its the high affection scene. sorry.

That said, who cares if he says that? Maybe he's saying nothings changed about them being friends or something? Who knows what Cloud meant, you can't assume something is definite just because it makes sense to you.

he said nothing's changed. meaning his feelings for her hasnt changed. or why ELSE would he be stuttering his brains out to tell how he has felt about her? cloud had no problem saying they were friends, and all of a sudden he cant say "Hey, Tifa, you are such a great friend!" to her face? he told her nothing's changed about HIS feelings about HER. NOT the relationship.

Now, this quote proves that what Cloud and Tifa were requesting was to go on as companions, not romantic companions, but friends fighting together.

uuhh...>.> did you just not say:

Maybe he's saying nothings changed about them being friends or something

YOU already suggested they were already friends. it was said by tifa in the game MULTIPLE TIMES that they were CHILDHOOD FRIENDS. why on all of gaia would they need each other's friendship when they had it since they were 8YRS OLD?! they already had it. oh, i guess they wanted DOUBLE the amount of friendship awesomeness? dude stop the contradicting already. and once again you dont give links to your quotes. *sigh* you are making this ever so hard.

they were able to confirm established feelings for requested company/partnership."

and what was these feeling exactly? lets check it out shall we?
(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/)

VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

just what feelings are they?
(looks at picture of link)
i still dont understand....lets keep going.

(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."



(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

and from tifa's profile:

Link to the FFVII Series
The only woman who knows Cloud’s past.
In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

i think we can be sure those feelings of company/partnership are somewhere on the romantic realm.

and since cloud did this:

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...-to-a-smile-case-of-tifa-revised-translation/)

“Because I have you this time.”
“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

we can be sure it WAS something on that aisle.

What? The only time ADULT Cloud stuttered about admitting anything was when he told Aerith "But I'M....... we're here for you, right?"

zloud. he said this when he was zloud. so therefore ZACK said this, not cloud. and if you hate saying "zloud" than ill just say "pre- lifestream sequence cloud" or (P-L cloud). this was before cloud fell into the lifestream and realized his true feelings for tifa, so it doesnt count.

What are you talking about? "Two years in torture?"

how many years he spent in shin-ra. it was terrible for him, if you played/looked at crisis core you'd see he would get picked on for his weakness almost all the time. but he stayed. because of his promise. to tifa.

I'm not even going to get into that discussion. Fans have actually proven how that time-chart is wrong but who cares how little of time they shared together? This is a fantasy story we're talking about. These extravagant stories are suppose to be like that. Titanic is just one story where two people fall in love in three days. Time does not matter. maybe it does in the real world, but not in a game about magic.

THATS WHAT MAKES IT MARY SUE. its entirely unbelievable and cheesy to believe that cloud, with his outstanding stalker crush on tifa for YEARS all of a sudden "falls" (pun intended) for this girl in under a year. even for FINAL FANTASY this is too fantasy for anyone's liking and it DOESNT MAKE SENSE. cloud told tifa "nothing's changed" about his feelings to her. look at the video yourself at 1:44

i cant help but love the song at this. :' ( i always have. but this doesnt matter at all lol

A Final Fantasy VII fan interviewed Tetsuya Nomura for Dorimaga magazine and asked "How many girls has Sephiroth ever loved?". In reaction, Nomura spoke evasively in anticipation of more questions regarding Cloud and Tifa's love life, which have nothing to do with Sephiroth.

Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenerios that we don't mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue. ~ Dorimaga magazine; interview with Nomura; November, 2005
English version: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1
Japanese version: http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086



Here;

Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris (in KH)?

Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140

What do you see at the end of KH1? You see Cloud reuniting with Aerith after searching for her for years. They are together. So the answer to their relationship is that they're "together".

huh. funny because Squall notes this too.

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/3/)“What kind of question is that? I’ve never thought about it. Honestly, I don’t care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenerios that we don’t mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.”
Given that this comment was made around the time of Advent Children’s release and after the publication of On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa, if Nomura had no clue even then whether there was a relationship between Cloud and Tifa — neither an affirmative, nor a negative — and, indeed, didn’t even care who loved who, that would seem to indicate that he also had no clue whether Cloud was in love with Tifa or Aerith.
In other words, that would seem to mean that there’s no pairing to be
determined as far as he’s concerned or even aware.
This statement, however, doesn’t preclude the other key developers of the Compilation of FFVII — such as Nojima, who made the comments cited at the beginning of this article — from having an opinion on it and an intention with the story.

that statement you had of "i dont care who loves who" was in 2002, before they were even in the MAKING of AC. Or most possibly Nomura lied to lead fans away from a project into VII. but we all know this is in ’02, so it doesn’t count at all and anyway, you contradict yourself AGAIN, because if he didnt care who loves who, wouldnt that mean no clerith?

So the word "desire" in the sexual sense IS NOT even there.

BS. if it was on platonic why did Nojima say the line was RISQUE? MEANING sexual? you said so yourself. risque means sexual. stop trying to deny it. try again.

Because they're a bunch of rabid cloti tryhards.

maybe because cloti is canon.

So I'm sorry but you've been lied to.

i have not. S/E doesnt lie, and i listen only to them. you listen to clerith.com.

No. I've already proven to you HOW and WHY the Clerith date is canon.
In a NON-OPTIONAL scene (the dream scene Cloud has of him and Aerith in the sleeping forest) includes Aerith SPEAKING of their date at Gold Saucer.

Aerith : Oh, Cloud... I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful.
I'll never forget it.
I'll never forget you, Cloud..." (TAKEN FROM DISMANTLED)

​

THAT is why the Clerith date is canon. Because Aerith and Cloud recalled their date in a scene with only ONE version, in other words it happened in a non-optional scene. Just like Advent Children canonized Yuffie and Vincent's existence.

S/E said the dates prove jackcrap.

VII – Secret date

At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.​

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/)

there you have it. unless you want yuffies kiss to be declared as true love, shut it.

If you did you would know that they weren't "childhood friends" and that even TIFA says they weren't close.

Tifa "My room?"
Young Cloud "It was my first time there."
Tifa "Was... it?"
Young Cloud "I only used to look up at it from outside."
Tifa "Was that the first day you came into my room?"
Tifa "...that's right. We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well."
Tifa "I've known you since we were children and I always thought we were close..."
Tifa "Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room..."
Young Cloud "Tifa always used to be with this three-some."
Tifa "...That's right."

See? They were not friends. That's why they wanted to be companions, because they weren't true friends before that.

huh, so they werent BFFs. did i ever say they were? you quoted it yourself. they werent CLOSE. you dont have to be "ZOMG I NO EVERYTHING ABOUT U FOREVA!!!!!!" to be a friend to someone. the fantasy tifa was living through was that she thought she and cloud were CLOSE friends. but they were just friends. they werent BFFs. you have stated nothing i dont know. try again.

"For many years, Cloud and Tifa used to hold favor with each other.
Finally facing the approaching last battle with Sephiroth, they were able to confirm established feelings for requested company/partnership." - FFVII25thAU

*facepalm*

you just proved cloti. again.

lets go through that quote once more, shall we?

"For many years, Cloud and Tifa used to hold favor with each other.
Finally facing the approaching last battle with Sephiroth, they were able to confirm established feelings for requested company/partnership." - FFVII25thAU

first, you highlight "used to", meaning you admit there was at least SOME ROMANCE between them. but then you turn around and say there never was.

secondly:

Cloud and Tifa used to hold favor with each other.

used to hold favor with each other.

used to hold favor with each other.

"HOLD." the quote is using HOLD. PAST TENSE. not "used to be holding". this means that they USED to withHOLD their feelings.

they were able to confirm established feelings for requested company/partnership.

now they were able to CONFIRM the witheld feelings. they stopped holding onto their feelings and gave them to each other. so you are right. they USED TO withhold their feelings. THEN, under the highwind, they CONFIRMED the witheld feelings. so no more holding for them. they know full well of how they feel about each other. thank you for proving coti again! i cant believe you take yourself seriously.

And again, you keep thinking the HAHW scene is canon, when it's not. Your argument only stands if the HAHW scene is canon, which it isn't.

oh....and THATS why its one of the MOST IMPORTANT SCENES IN ALL THE GAME? because its NOT CANON? stop kidding yourself. you are lying to yourself. the highwind scene (not the stupid dates) is noted as one of the most notable parts in the whole game, one of FOUR. NONE OF THEM INCLUDE THE DATE. but i guess S/E likes to confirm uncanon things, right? because they are retarded like that. :T

(FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game]


(U20 Scenario, pg. 199)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book]

look at the freakin book yourself. you cant change canon, and you cant change cloti. the most you do is indirectly confirm it. XD

That is the ONLY physical thing that takes place. Cloud let Tifa lean on his shoulder while he kept his arms tightly crossed against his own chest (oooh so romantic! )

well id rather have tifa leaning on clouds shoulder than cloud and aerith having absolutely NO PHYSICAL PRIVATE CONTACT in the entire game.

anyway, there is nothing physical in the shown scenes. the scene PANNED OUT. we are left to think something happened. we are NOT supposed to see it, pervert. and apparently cid saw SOMETHING of what they did.

Um, you realize the creators said they talked from DUSK till DAWN, right?

Tifa: Cloud, words aren't the only thing to tell how you are feeling......
Cloud: ....Tifa......

*talks all night*

doesnt that make perfect sense?

like i said, you proved NOTHING.

the quote you used says the DIALOGUE of them USED from dusk till dawn will change due to the - what? lets heard it from their own mouths.

circumstance

the CIRCUMSTANCES of the dialogue used from dusk till dawn change.

If they spoke from dusk to dawn that means they did exactly that... speak. Not hump. This quote says no matter what version you get they speak from dusk until dawn. Sorry, no time for humping.

"humping"...what a funny word. anyway:

VII – The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.​

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/)

THEY DID NOT TALK. so yes, there was more than enough time for...what you say...humping?

Square has never said Cloud and Tifa kissed, you need to just accept that already, man. :/

oh, you're right. especially due to the amount of times they said cloud and aerith kissed, it sure does.....

oh, wait.

No and no. You've yet to provide proof of that.

proof of what, callisto? proof of what? because i can give it to you if you want.

Tifa said so herself in CoT that their family is a family of "nakama" aka friends.

tifa TRIED to do that. but it didnt work. or if it was of friends, why did tifa ask cloud did he love her? they had a romantic time previously and cloud was acting out. he was drinking, being alone more than usual, and barely paid attention to tifa.


BUT.


cloud was feeling happy with his family. it was the GUILT that made him to out of wack. it was the GUILT that made him feel like he couldnt help anyone. the GUILT made him feel like he didnt deserve his family.

This destroys your argument that it's a family built on romance.

really? than why did Nojima say this?

translation 1:

“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think.”

translation 2:

“‘Episode Tifa’… first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith.”

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/2/)

so either way love, marriage and family are included in both translations. so....no. :T there is some romance in clouds family. since he said

“What I mean is kind of different,”

(http://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episodetifa/2/)

to tifa. come again?

Ah, so Cloud was happy in CoT? (answer this with either a yes or no answer please)

sure.

YES. yes he was.

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/)

In Advent Children
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past.
Age: 23
Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
「 I don’t think I’m fit to save anyone. Not family, not friends . . . no one. 」

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…

he is terrified out his mind to lose tifa and the kids. THATS why he left. THATS why tifa thought his feelings were fading. once again, YES. cloud loved being with his family. he was very happy.

w-what? you're kidding right? did I just step into the twilight zone or something? um, first of all, no. Second of all, Tifa isn't doubting their love, that was my whole point. When I asked if Tifa was doubting their love (even though it was supposedly some amazing sex night where they confessed their wub) that was a rhetorical question, sug.

that was some horrible rhetorical question. because it can get answered. WHY WOULD SHE ASK HE LOVED HER IF THEY WERE 100% PLATONIC?
YOU are the one that pointed this out. not me. why? why would she asked if NOTHING romantic happened between them? why?

I asked that to show you how nonsensical it is to say that Cloud and Tifa admitted their supposed undying love and had sex but then Tifa is ASKING Cloud IF he loves her less then a year later when he's supposedly "happy" with them? Do you not see how ridiculous that is. It makes no sense that Tifa would be so afraid to know Cloud's answer, that she changes her question before he could answer, if they were happy (like you claim) and they JUST admitted their love.

i already TOLD you. it was clouds guilt that made him feel and act so bad. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH TIFA OR THE CHILDREN.

The only thing that explains why Tifa asks Cloud that question is because she has NO IDEA if he loves her, if she has no idea that means they did not confess love let alone have sex.

yea, silly tifa, jumping to conclusions after cloud said

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

“Because I have you this time.”

i mean, pffffffffffffffffft. tifa, stop trying to push it. cloud dont love you guh!

And of course he loves all of his friends.

yeah. like aerith and zack.

He didn't. The last thing we see before Cloud smiles is him looking at AERITH.

yea, i saw that in your sig. this is what made me turn you off completely. in your last signature on the right, we see cloud looking with a shocked face, and then aerith appears and smiles. but you COMPLETELY BLANKED OUT ZACK just to have your silly clerith. THATS what makes its opinonated. THATS what makes it fake.

cloud is looking at aerith all right. AND ZACK.



you are nothing but a clerith fangurl shipper. you completely blank out zack (that is CLEARLY in this scene) JUST to have your clerith. you have been called out. admit defeat. YOU HAVE BEEN CAUGHT.

Why? because Cloud believes it's Aerith who brought the boy to him.

maybe because denzel passed out IN FRONT OF HER CHURCH. would cloud think aerith brought denzel to him if he was on a highway somewhere?

and anyway:

I’m not saying you couldn’t go. But next time, I’ll go with you.”“I understand.”
“And you’re wrong, Cloud.”
Cloud was perplexed as he looked at Tifa.
“Aerith didn’t bring Denzel to you.”
“Ahh, I only thought that…..”
“I didn’t mean it that way.”
“Aerith brought Denzel to our home.”
Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled.

(http://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episodetifa/6/)

tifa agreed with him. and cloud SMILED. he was trying to change his words to seem like "oh, its not like what you think!" and tifa understood. cloud AND tifa thought this. whether this is true or not, BOTH of them thought this. so its not just cloud who thought this.

If Cloud's supposedly happy with Tifa and Marlene at this point in the story then why are they fighting and not getting along and just overall getting annoyed by one another, and why is Tifa FORCING herself to talk to Cloud?

BECAUSE OF THE FREAKING GUILT. IT WASNT HER OR THE KIDS. HE LOVED THEM ALL. THEY WERE PART OF HIS FAMILY. ask the same question more than THREE TIMES, you're going to get the same answer.

I ADORED the part about how Tifa couldn't make Cloud laugh at all.

laughing= romantic?

ohhhhkayy....>.>

in that case, cloud and tifa were laughing together.

Drunk, he fell into a well and spoke nonsense about proposing to his dead wife. It had been a long time since Tifa and Cloud burst out laughing.

(http://thelifestream.net/novels-novellas/on-the-way-to-a-smile-episodetifa/4/)

if you think laughing is romantic, then here you are.

The above quote is AMAZING because Cloud says meeting Aerith was amazing and he says this right after feeling his mysterious feeling, adoring her eyes and smile, and of course having the dream where his mother suggests a girl like Aerith for him. To me, Cloud saying it was "amazing" that he met Aerith shows that Cloud was accepting that he was falling in love with her. Why else would he say something like that?

because it was part of the red herring. the clouds subconscious scene proves he still loved tifa from 8yrs old.

CRAP! I forgot to mention, you should mention how in DISMANTLED Tifa says she was bothered by the way Cloud and another girl (Aerith) became so close.

Tifa: in Don's Mansion
Tifa: "Hummm... I was in a complicated mood today—I was happy, but somehow, I felt annoyed at the same time. Though I need to get more information no matter what, it’s still risky to visit Don’s mansion by myself… that notorious lecher! I knew I should have settled my determination, but I couldn’t stop my teardrops.
Cloud came to rescue me (and dressed like a girl!) when I was thinking that I might not survive this time. Therefore, I was very happy. I thought I had an illusion when I first saw him in the park.

It’s just that...I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl(Aerith) soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder…


See how Tifa points out that Cloud & Aerith were close and how she was jealous of it?

maybe because this is the 1st disc. >.> and the 1st disc and maybe even 2nd seems like clerith. like i said, you note everything in the BEGINNING of the game, which doest count because they havent reached clouds subconscious.

See how Cloud asks AERITH who he is? He is still confused about his true past but he's seeking Aerith's help in finding out who he is. This is significant because Cloud feels like it's AERITH who knows him best.

in his subconscious, he yelled for tifa. not aerith.

Aerith: "I was a little surprised that this village was Zack's birthplace! Although called my first love, that doesn't mean that we became particularly intimate.

[ ν ] – εуλ 0000(Age 15)
· CC – Midgar

She met Zack in the Sector 5 church, and became very intimate with him.

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...aerith-gainsborough-character-profile-p48-51/)



AERITH LIED. is that against FF laws?

No, Tifa found out that, while she was treating Cloud like garbage as children,

haha....when?

1. That is only IF you get the high affection one, which is not canon.
2. What they do without words is sit next to each other, and that is ALL they do.
3. Nomura said they both spoke from dusk until dawn in either version, meaning NO sex happened.
4. The 25thAU says Cloud and Tifa agreed to be platonic companions after the highwind scene.

and there is your silly reply. happy?

EDIT: i realized the 3rd contradiction you've made so far. did you not say right here:

3. Nomura said they both spoke from dusk until dawn in either version, meaning NO sex happened.

and then you turn around and say

4. The 25thAU says Cloud and Tifa agreed to be platonic companions after the highwind scene.

you just said that nothing happened under the highwind, and then you say something did happen by saying "they agreed to have a platonic relationship" AFTER the highwind scene. how can some people agree on having a platonic relationship AFTER something when 100% all the time they HAVE BEEN and KNOWN IT ALL ALONG?

i just find it hilarious that you wont admit the obvious that cloud and tifa spent the night together and stretch it so far you contradict yourself twice. why the heck wont you admit it already?

EDIT: i have made a grammatical mistake. i said that "hold" is past tense when it actually PRESENT tense. the past tense it "held". anyway, Callisto was right. she highlighted the right words. they USED TO hold, but now they dont have to anymore because they dont hold their feelings. as the quote says, the confirmed what they used to hold their feelings and became a couple under the highwind WITHOUT WORDS, and they have started a family and a future together.


also, the guy that voices cloud HIMSELF says that he thinks tifa fits him more than aerith.

"I've always been a Tifa fan, you know. One of my friends is an Aerith fan, and I've actually gotten into an argument with him about who the better woman is. Since she grew up with Cloud, and there's this subtle balance between her outer appearance and inner self, I think Tifa is pretty special. I'm quite the simple man, aren't I?"
- Takahiro Sakurai

(http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=122&more=1)


Takahiro VOICE ACTS cloud, so wouldnt you think he would instantly know the relationship of aerith, since he the closest with her? yet he says tifa is for cloud, and he ARGUES this. now this doesnt make anything official, but still. this is the voice of cloud, and he admits to relating with him DEEPLY, and yet he argues TIFA is the right one for cloud. would that mean anything to you? (not really saying "you" as in Callisto) since he has the strongest connection out of the entire cast?

 

[Starships]

I don't see what's wrong with enjoying or liking Cloti or Zack/ Aerith

TBH I think that Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children and sigh... Crisis Core.... can be viewed as either Cloti or Clerith being Canon. It depends on how you view certain events or the main characters and even your own personal experiences.

I think that Clerith is canon, but I think that Cloti is canon by somebody else point of view of the game and Cloud, Aeris, Tifa, and Zack. With these quotes that are coming out most of them either point towards Clerith but Cloti as well. I believe that Square- Enix did this on purpose, not to cause fights online but to make it up to your choice on what's canon. Hence all these fights because some people see something while others see something different.

And C/T as a pairing I don't see that.. After DoC they could get stronger as a couple. I just don't see anything between them in the original game and spin-offs hence the Clerith supporting, though people do see Cloti and Z/A hence me writing this right now

Example most Clotis see Clerith has nothing but Cloud having a fling for her because of the Zack-ness inside him during that time, then later pure guilt for letting Aeris go. While Clerith see Cloti as nothing but Cloud having a childhood crush, joining Solider for that crush, Cloud being messed up by Jenova and him falling for Aeris and even though he gets back his true identity his heart still falls for Aeris because he truly loved him despite him being a Zack wannabe in the first disc..

I don't get the guilt thing because you can still love somebody who's dead and have love AND guilt example of this would be Rachel and Locke Cole from Final Fantasy 6. Locke felt really guilty for letting Rachel die, so much so he gains a phobia and fear of any women who reminds him of Rachel causes him to go all White- Knighty and a bit paranoid. But he still loved Rachel and it wasn't until Rachel's blessing that he didn't think about moving on which is like.... very very close to the games end 90 per cent of FF VI Locke loves Rachel , he does have a fling with Terra and Celes but his heart still belonged to Rachel.

It's like that with Cloud and Aeris imo. Aeris despite being dead, Cloud still loves her imo. And Cloud might move on in the future, all through FF VII and Advent Children imo Cloud falls in love and develops feelings for Aeris and truly loves her imo.

So that's why I support Clerith but everybody is different and sees and views Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children and sigh CRisiS COre * chokes and dies * differently. Many people have different reasons to support C/T or A/ C or even Zack and Aeris that's why imo the LTD has gone for so long and most likely will never end and plus most usually despise the rival ship because it's not what they see Cloud's lovelife, it's almost like forcing somebody else to ship what they don't ship which is extremely painful. Though if Square came out saying that C/T is canon, I don't see what the problem would be because it's a fantasy ship and what's canon will always be canon with you- fanon or not.

blah blah went on for too long, dribble, dribble. You get the idea.

[Ignore the angry face up top, I'm not mad. How do you remove that ? Wtf ? ]

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I don't see what's wrong with enjoying or liking Cloti or Zack/ Aerith

neither do i. its when people start pushing the canon wall when things get wrong.

TBH I think that Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children and sigh... Crisis Core.... can be viewed as either Cloti or Clerith being Canon. It depends on how you view certain events or the main characters and even your own personal experiences.

really? because CC looks completely zerith.

I believe that Square- Enix did this on purpose, not to cause fights online but to make it up to your choice on what's canon. Hence all these fights because some people see something while others see something different.

thats weird. because they have stated time upon time that cloud loves tifa to this day.

And C/T as a pairing I don't see that.. After DoC they could get stronger as a couple. I just don't see anything between them in the original game and spin-offs hence the Clerith supporting, though people do see Cloti and Z/A hence me writing this right now

you mean you cant see cloti in the lifestream when cloud has memories of tifa he says are "tender" and "secret"? or the time when he fulfilled the promise double the amount of times tifa asked him to? or the time when cloud told tifa nothing's changed, or when he said he said he'll still keep the promise? what about the quote that says he MUST keep the promise? what about the time whenever he becomes close to death he regretfully talks of tifa and his promise and how he couldnt keep it? or the time when he says he can live on with her for the rest of his life? or the time when he says their relationship is different? or when S/E says that tifa is an important woman to him and moved her in his family? or when S/E says he feels happy with her?

Example most Clotis see Clerith has nothing but Cloud having a fling for her because of the Zack-ness inside him during that time, then later pure guilt for letting Aeris go. While Clerith see Cloti as nothing but Cloud having a childhood crush, joining Solider for that crush, Cloud being messed up by Jenova and him falling for Aeris and even though he gets back his true identity his heart still falls for Aeris because he truly loved him despite him being a Zack wannabe in the first disc..

that much is true. but just because there is a mixup on whats canon and what isnt doesnt make it up for "interpretations". S/E hasnt been scared to say that cloti is true and always has been for 16 years.

I don't get the guilt thing because you can still love somebody who's dead and have love AND guilt.

just because you dont believe it doesnt make it not so. it has been said out of nomura's mouth (i have the disc) that cloud is very happy with tifa and the kids. his family. it was the guilt that made him feel and act otherwise. if you dont get it, fine. but its been said multiple times by official sources.

Rachel and Locke Cole from Final Fantasy 6. Locke felt really guilty for letting Rachel die, so much so he gains a phobia and fear of any women who reminds him of Rachel causes him to go all White- Knighty and a bit paranoid. But he still loved Rachel and it wasn't until Rachel's blessing that he didn't think about moving on which is like.... very very close to the games end 90 per cent of FF VI Locke loves Rachel , he does have a fling with Terra and Celes but his heart still belonged to Rachel.

locke is locke and rachel is rachel. they have nothing to do with VII. and clotis have NEVER said that cloud hates aerith. EVER. clotis even admit he LOVES her. i must say, he loves her A LOT. but he just isnt IN love with her.

It's like that with Cloud and Aeris imo. Aeris despite being dead, Cloud still loves her imo. And Cloud might move on in the future, all through FF VII and Advent Children imo Cloud falls in love and develops feelings for Aeris and truly loves her imo.

thats alright, since its your opinion. i could care less if people think marlenexhojo is the best couples (and that has been done before). its just that if the marojo (or however you mix up that WUBAR couple) shippers try to say its canon and try to prove it...well...they simply cant do that.

Though if Square came out saying that C/T is canon, I don't see what the problem would be because it's a fantasy ship and what's canon will always be canon with you- fanon or not.

they....kinda have. numora said he knew inside of him cloud and tifa would be together. where they belonged.

what i think the LTD is.......i dont think its about "Does Cloud love Tifa or Aerith" at all. i think its more of trying to prove that cloud loves aerith, because there is just too much proof to say "Oh he has absolutely NO romantic feelings for Tifa. It isn't displayed at all. Nuh uh nope!" as a matter of fact, 9/10 times of the LTD thread are made by cleriths (like this one), so this isnt too far fetched.

but yea, i have no problem with preferring couples over the other canon one. in fact (HARRY POTTER AND PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD AND BEGIN NOW) i hate harryxginny, and prefer harrxhermione, and i want elizabethxjack more than elizabethxwill, but what i am NOT doing is trying to prove it when there is hardcore proof of otherwise. i just cant say "ZOMG ELIZABETH AND JACK KISSED!!!!! DATS TWOO LOVE!" and i cant say "ZOMG HARMIONE IS TRU BECAWSE HERMIONE HUGGED HIM IN BOOK 1 AND HARRY TOLD HER HE DOESN'T THINK SHE'S UGLY IN BOOK 5!!!!!!"

....>.> no. i cant.

=========================
heres my redone/revised version on my article : D

the revised part will have * next to it.

ok, so here's some more insight on the highwind scene for some unbelievers.

lets start it off with this epic pure win post! : D

(very long people)

First, scans of the page in question -- pg. 394 of the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...Seed/ltdend.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...ed/ltdover2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...ed/ltdover3.jpg


Quote (MagitekElite)
It makes no sense because you would not translate "合う" as "to match" in that sentence.


You would, actually. Here's the Japanese sentence:
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う。

If you break that sentence down, you get this:
ティファ=Tifa
の=”of”
おかげで=”thanks to”
自分=”oneself”; “himself” for this sentence
を=particle identifying recipient of an action
取り=”to take” or “to receive”
戻した=past tense of “return”; with the previous, it means “regain”
クラウド=Cloud
は=particle identifying main subject; Cloud, in this case
セフィロス=Sephiroth
と=”with”
最後=”last” or “final”
の=still means “of”
戦い=”battle”
を=still the particle identifying recipient of an action
前に=”before”
言葉=”words”
では=”in”
伝えられない=”not transmitted” or “not conveyed”
想い=”feelings”
を=you should know this one by now
彼女=”she” or “her”
と=”with”
確とかめ=”confirmation”
合う=”to match” or “to agree with”

Thus: “Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

If one wanted, they could render 言葉では伝えられない as something like “without conveying in words” or “while at a loss for words,” but they’re still arriving at the same conclusion: Cloud and Tifa confirmed that their feelings for one another match, and did so without using words.

Also, let me clarify further that the context of the page is the romantic couples of Final Fantasy. This is the heading of the page:

"For the One I Love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two's value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come."

Note especially that the Japanese word for "love" here is "renai" (恋愛), which refers specifically to romantic love.

I'll include the entirety of the Japanese text at the end of this post, as well as my translation of it.


Quote (MagitekElite)
The people who have translated this seem to think that Aerith never loved Cloud and they seem to think that because Tifa/Cloud's date was shown (as well as Aerith's) that Tifa's is canon and they are giving the part they misunderstood a different meaning.


The person (singular; i.e. me) who translated it does not believe any such thing. As I've explained to you on other forums than these, MagitekElite, and as is clear in the article I've written about the Love Triangle Debate for my FFVII Plot Analysis FAQ.

Furthermore, while I would venture to argue that Tifa's date is more likely to be canon than any of the others (it is, after all, the only one that fits the name, "Words Drowned by Fireworks"), I also think it's wholly irrelevant to the matter being discussed here, as the Ultimania page being discussed dismisses the date sequence as irrelevant.


Quote (MagitekElite)
I'm not calling them out on it either, its just I know who has translated this and they did it all wrong.


You say this over and over, yet never explain why. You even admit that you don't know the Japanese language enough to "explain" why it's wrong.


Quote (MagitekElite)
They never had sex though.


Whatever they did was physical:
-Cloud couldn't find the words to say how he was feeling.
-Tifa said words aren't the only way to show people how you feel.
-Pan to the sky and fade out. Fade in, they're cuddled together.
-This FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania page says they confirmed their feelings to match without using words.
-Tifa's profile in the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pg. 27) describes their feelings as "feelings of desire for one another":
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う
-Kazushige Nojima, FFVII's primary writer, has described Tifa's line about not using words to show how one feels as "risqué" (きわどい in Japanese)

This, of course, refers to the high affection version of the Highwind scene -- which is the only one included in SE's FFVII International Memorial Album script of the game (pp. 241-242), one of only four so-called "Impressive Scenes" to have their scripts featured at the beginning of the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania's section on FFVII (pg. 199), and the version of the Highwind scene described in the same book's summary of the game's story (pg. 232): そして、ふたりきりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う ( "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match").

There's really no way around this one.

Whatever happened was physical. Was it sex? Probably. Does it matter? Not especially.

The important parts of all this are that their feelings are said to be feelings of desire for one another, described in the context of "renai" (romantic love), and it's said that they confirmed their feelings to match.

We know how Tifa feels about Cloud. If their feelings match, then he feels romantic love toward her as well.


Quote (Del S)
Alternative translations will paint different pictures, both sides will decry the others as falsifying their translations ...


You are most certainly correct. In the past couple of weeks, I've been called a liar more times than I care to be over a fictional pairing.

That's why I'm here to set the record straight and provide the Japanese text for those who can identify its meaning themselves -- and advise anyone who can't but still cares to check out Babelfish, Google's translator, or popjisyo.com (especially the latter) to make up their own mind.

I have nothing to hide. Everyone who's accused me of falsying this translation, however, has failed to provide an explanation as to why it's wrong. Meanwhile, I break down the sentence word by word and show why it isn't.

Typically, this results in those accusing me of making things up never acknowledging the point.


Quote (somera)
Since it's right above a picture of Squall and Rinoa hugging, it hints at a Cloud x Tifa pairing, BUT at the bottom there's a box talking about the different forms of love in the FF series, e.g. Galuf and Kururu (sp?) in FFV. So, no, I don't think that settles the debate.


Notice that the box at the bottom specifically says that the relationships discussed there are different from those in the main body of the page -- "恋愛以外の「愛」に関する場面" ("Scenes involving 'love' other than romantic love").

In other words, the relationships discussed elsewhere are about romantic love. This includes the Cloud and Tifa entry.


With all that addressed, here's the Japanese text of the whole page, followed by my translation of it. Note that all of the scenes in question for the couples of other games feature them in their moments of realization/declaration.

Also, notice that the date sequence for FFVII -- which does depict the Cloud and Aerith date -- also dismisses the scene as irrelevant by noting that who Cloud goes on the date with is determined by the player; something it does not do for the scene with Cloud and Tifa.

Without further ado:


Quote
『愛する人のために』
長い旅を通じて築かれる、主人公たちの恋愛感情。ときにはふたりが引き裂かれることもあるが、お互いを大事に想っていればどんな難局でも乗り越えていけるという気持ちは、彼らに大きな力を与えてくれる。

「III」真面目な兵士と素直な姫
サス―ン城の兵士と姫という身分ちがいの恋に、イングスは自分の気持ちを押し殺そうとするが、サラは彼への想いを隠そうとしない。

「IV」ふたりだけの世界
捕らわれていたロ―ザを救い出したとき、セシルは自分の本心を打ち明ける。再会したふたりは、人目も気にせず強く抱き合った。

「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の―員　--　お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。

「VII」秘密のデ―ト
ゴ―ルドソ―サ―で仲間のひとりから誘いを受けりクラウド。誰が誘いにやってくるかは、それまでのクラウドの行動しだい。

「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う。

「VIII」魔女リノアの騎士
魔女として封印される直前のリノアを、無心で奪還するスコ―ル。「魔女でもいいさ」
という彼の言葉は、リノアの心に安らぎを与えた。

「IX」守るべき者のため
ひょんなことから、スタイナ―にとってベアトリクスはかけがえのない女性となった。祖国と彼女を守るため、スタイナ―は剣を振るう。

「IX」生命のしらべに導かれ
イ―ファの樹で仲間の前から姿を消したジタン。彼は「いつか帰るところ」へ帰るために生きのび、愛いい人の待つ場所にもどってきた。

「X」マカラニ―アの泉で
ずっと信じていた寺院に裏切られユウナは心のよりどころを矢った。ティ―ダは、そんな彼女を支えていくことを決意する。

番外編
恋愛以外の「愛」に関する場面
「FF」シリ―ズでは男女間の恋愛だけでなく、さまざまな形の「愛」が描かれている。「FFV」におけるガラフとクルルをはじめとした家族愛や、「FFVI」のエドガ―とマッシュのような兄弟愛、「FFIX」のエ―コとモグのような種族を越えた情愛なだがその一例だ。また、「FFVI」においてティナが「愛」という感情を知ることで戦う力を取りもどすシ―ンは、「愛」そのものを語るうえで、はずせない場面のひとつだろう。

[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
一度は戦う力を矢ったティナは、「愛する者のために戦う」ということを知って力を取りもどし、ふたりび戦いに身を投じる。



Quote
FOR THE ONE I LOVE
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.

III – The diligent soldier and the meek princess
The love between the soldier and princess of Sasune Castle was divided by social status; Ingus tried to supress his feelings, but Sara would not hide hers.

IV – World just for the two of us
When rescuing Rosa, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.

VI – Result of the chance encounter
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.

VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

VIII – Witch Rinoa’s knight
Just before she can be sealed due to being a witch, Squall retakes Rinoa. “I don’t care that you’re a witch” are his words to her, putting her mind at ease.

IX – For the one I must protect
Beatrix becomes the woman to whom Steiner will let no harm befall. For his homeland’s protection and for hers, Steiner brandishes his sword.

IX – Guidance on an investigation of life
Zidane left the company of his companions in front of the Iifa Tree. He survived for the sake of going back to “the place I’ll return to someday,” where the one he loves was waiting for him.

X – Macalania Spring
Yuna is betrayed by the temples she had completely believed in and had made the foundation of her life. Tidus decides to comfort her in this way.

Extra Thread
Scenes involving “love” other than romantic love
In the “FF” series, there’s not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted. In “FFV,” there’s familial love between Galuf and Krile, as well as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin depicted in “FFVI”; and in “FFIX,” there’s an instance of love between Eiko and Mog that goes beyond race. Also, in “FFVI,” there’s the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called “love”; when talking about “love,” this is a scene that shouldn’t be left out.

[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
During the event where Terra recovers her ability to fight, she regains her power and says “I’ll fight to protect the people I love”; she then throws herself back into battle.


So, go through all of that, guys, and make up your own minds. I'm not asking you to believe me simply because I said so.

But I am asking you not to believe someone who says I'm lying when their only justification is that they said so. Thanks for listening.

this is done by none other than Squall of SeeD, (whom of which i am a HYOOGE fan of) the author of his 6 page article on the LTD, which is even more awesome (http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...angle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/ ).

and for this one. it was a question of someone who wanted to know what the couples of FFVII actually are.

(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081202063019AAeOIUr)

who actually loves who? i'm playing FF VII Crisis Core and in the game Zack and Aerith are lovers. but i read from somewhere that in FF VII Cloud loves Aerith. if this statement is true, is she loves Cloud too? what about Tifa? i'm not playing FF VII so i don't know exactly the whole story.

So somebody please tell me the whole story!!!

by ::sMiLeY-gIrL::. the reply is:

*****SPOILERS********


Zack and Aeris were dating. Cloud had a childhood crush on Tifa, which is what caused him to try to join SOLDIER. Zack dies and through a strange set of circumstances, Cloud takes on part of Zack's life without realizing it. Cloud and Aeris then meet, and due to Cloud looking much like Zack and practically pretending to be him, she kinda gets attracted to him, and he to her. But then she dies. Cloud also still wanted Tifa, and after she ends up swimming around in his head, sorting out his memories for him, they get a connection, and it is suggested near the end of the original FF7 game that they have sex. Then at the end of Advent Children, you see Aeris and Zack in spirit forms walk off into the sunset together.



*****END SPOILERS*******

So I'd say, while there was something between Cloud and Aeris, it never really had time to develop into much.

by MagicianTrent


now, i know you may (ok, you most definitely possibly are) be all like "Yahoo ANSWERS?! REALLY BRO!?!??!?! XD XD XD LOL LAWLS!!" but notice: all he does is note what the GAMES say. AFTER he puts "end spoilers", he then puts in HIS OPINION, saying that maybe there could have been clerith, but there most certainly was only a chance for it.

as you can see, from the quotes above, normal, regular thinking, logical people admit that even if there was sex displayed under the highwind, they wouldnt be surprised.

luckily, is has been proven. like this quote says:

“Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/)

what else would you have thought would have happened? sadly, there are plenty of a person who think otherwise. FAR from otherwise.

alright, i'll take this into separate steps.

The box in the link shows that all love in Final Fantasy games aren't romantic. So that could possibly include FFVII.
you mean this?

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/

Extra Thread
Scenes involving “love” other than romantic love
In the “FF” series, there’s not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted. In “FFV,” there’s familial love between Galuf and Krile, as well as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin depicted in “FFVI”; and in “FFIX,” there’s an instance of love between Eiko and Mog that goes beyond race. Also, in “FFVI,” there’s the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called “love”; when talking about “love,” this is a scene that shouldn’t be left out.

this is a bit self-explanatory. the box already points out all the platonic love couples that S/E made in all the final fantasy games. cloud and tifa (as well as Yudus and company, but we're talking about VII) arent there. there really isnt anything else to say. VII is S/E's most successful game of all time, so we can be 100% sure that S/E would be certain and pay special attention to put VII in the box, if they were platonic. besides, i suggest you dont note it because if the couple of VII are platonic, since you get no clerith, considering you want clerith to be as romantic as cloti is.

So why did they put up Aerith's date before they showed Cloud and Tifa?
oh, this.
View attachment 3098

VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

they put up aerith's date because its for people who think it's clerith. they have said that

Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

so its not "real." i have once said that none of the dates (including tifa's) are canon. i'll rephrase it into this. its not written or depended sorely on the the plot, so none of the dates have an official outcome. i believe that the dates canon, separately, to each character that dated cloud alone. but its not what i believe thats the case. if thats the case, i might as well stop now. its not people opinions that work things out in this type of discussion/debate. what S/E is doing is waving off all the dates as irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the original couple. it doesnt count. they used aerith's date for the people who think its written into the plot of cloud's love life. unless you want cluffie to be canon, i suggest a quiet down of this.

What does "without words" actually mean?
isnt it obvious? well, for some clarity:

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs).

still dont get it? well, maybe YOU do, but there are still a majority that insist that the "toned down" is of the backround or something else.

1. who in the world tones down a backround?
2. be honest. is that what you FIRST thought of when you read the quote?

even if someone would tone down a BACKROUND, this wouldnt be the case.

if you read the quote again, you will see that the entire group agreed on the subject at hand; it wasnt even argued. it was how displayed, or implied, that was debated. the hint was taken down, just for being too extreme. anyway, the implication was turned down, not the actual matter at hand. if it wasnt, Kitase would have added it. it wasnt rejected because he didnt like it, personally. it was for the public's sake. so, without a stretch, we are given another sign that possibly something sexual happened.

They could have hugged/held each other.
let's look into these suggestions. Nojima said that the scene was mature and risque, the first in a FF game.
is hugging/holding each other mature? and at that, following directly after the risque (sexually hinting) line, would that make sense? even toddlers can hug/hold each other, so it cant be that mature in the least. maybe it would be mature, in a E rated game. this is a T rated series, so the maturity is shot up another notch.


View attachment 3099
anyone who suggests this means anything else but platonic needs to see a dang psychologist.

so no, hugging isnt mature, even then its not in the sense Kitase meant it to be, and it doesnt follow a risque scene at all. it just doesnt make sense.

furthermore:


View attachment 3100

IV – World just for the two of us
When rescuing Rosa, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.

"tightly embracing" is explicitly meaning hugging/holding each other, and this is a very early installment in FF, far from any hints of VII's coming. Nojima said that was a mature scene, possibly the first in FF, and hugging isnt new in the least (seeing this was a very early game), so this isnt it.

They could have talked all night.
this makes zilcho sense. didnt tifa tell cloud not to use words for how he felt, and S/E confirms that cloud followed her suggestion without hesitations?

(sub question of topic)

But look at this:

, “At that moment, according to Tifa’s affectional rating for Cloud, the event of ‘dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn’ and ‘Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance’ will be different.”

sure.

and look at this:

(http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...gle-of-ffvii-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed/3/)

A second counterargument related to the Highwind scene exists in the form of a line from the Final Fantasy VII: Kaitai Shinsho (pg. 189).
In a section describing the different scenes that can emerge as a result of Cloud’s affection rating is a paragraph related to the Highwind scene.
Here, a line says, “At this time, depending on Cloud’s affection rating for Tifa, the 2 events involving ‘dialogue exchanged between them from dusk to
dawn’ and ‘Tifa’s lines and reaction to learning that everyone may have seen (or heard) that situation’ will be different.”
The same line has been translated by Chibica of the Cloud x Aerith forums as, “At that moment, according to Tifa’s affectional rating for Cloud, the event of ‘dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn’ and ‘Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance’ will be different.”


From this, some have taken the meaning that Cloud and Tifa talked from dusk until dawn — the implication being that there was no sexual interaction between them. This, however, is a misreading of the line.
The line refers not to an instance of Cloud and Tifa talking from dusk until dawn, but, rather, to the dialogue they happen to exchange between dusk and dawn. At dusk, they have a conversation where the lines are affected by Cloud’s affection rating for Tifa. At dawn, the lines are again affected by the rating.
In addition, the line is speaking of the dialogue that occurs in both versions of the scene, not one or the other. We know from simply watching either the high affection or low affection versions of the scene that Cloud and Tifa do not talk from dusk until dawn in either.
In the low affection version, Cloud suggests the two go to sleep shortly after their conversation begins. And in both versions, Cloud awakens Tifa shortly before dawn, meaning there was no conversation between them throughout the entire night.

this makes sense since S/E says absolutely no words were given, in either low or high version.
moreover, what would they talk about? and at that, all night? the HW scene strongly suggests they did something all evening (or at least for quite a while) and it was because they made it that way on purpose. no, they couldnt have talked, and they didnt. something physical happened.

Sex doesn't mean love, and it doesn't mean mature.
you are partly right. sex has been (and is and will be) used for selfish means, not for love at all, and its definitely not 100% used maturely, seeing teenagers and AIDS and all.
but this was mature. Nojima said it was a risque and mature scene. in fact, the words "risque" and "mature" are used in the exact order i used. so it was sexual and mature. this was seen in Nojima's eyes as this. not me.
sex also doesnt mean love. but, as above proves, this was too. S/E says that cloud gave his feelings to tifa (and tifa to cloud) and they were an infinite mirror. they matched. WITHOUT WORDS. cloud was trying to tell tifa how he felt, but tifa told him words werent the only way for these kind of feelings to be expressed. there was no talking, there was no hugging. sex, for it is sometimes used in selfish and immature ways, was not the case for this. is was romantically and equally given. also note that the word used for her feelings about cloud is "desire" from the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pg. 27). since cloud's feelings match tifa's......

and the holes to worm through besides this one are disappearing as we speak.

so lets be in Kitase's shoes alright?
we want something that was never introduced in a FF game before, maybe a bit risque, and one of the people on the team give you a list.

1. hugging
2. talking
3. a risque and mature intimacy overnight (or throughout)

hugging has been done, and so has talking, so whats the last on the list?

Spoiler

1. NO hugging
2. NO talking
3. green sign on the last one!

now, there can be mature talks or, at least, the subject of the talking.

1. what would they talk about that would last more than 2 minutes?
2. even if you could find such a thing, no talking was done anyway.

They simply could have been comforting each other.
they could have. but they didnt. the quote ( in spoiler below) says that their feelings matched and were displayed together. it wasnt a case of "Hey, I've never gotten laid before, and I'm going to die tomorrow, so.....wanna help me out?
*wink wink nudge nudge*"
it wasnt the case of of TFS's version of Krillen from DBZ (he desperately doesnt want to die a virgin).

Spoiler

(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

in addition:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."




(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)


"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "




(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)


"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."




(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."




(CCU, pg. 33)


"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."




(FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)


"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

(U20 Scenario, pg. 394)


"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."


And for good measure, everything else that's ever been said about the scene:


(FFVIIUO, pg. 27; complete entry)


"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. The next morning, she departs for the Northern Crater along with her companions, who returned.


'Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking......'
-Said to Cloud, when he is at a loss for words while they're alone


(FFVIIUO, pg. 39)


"Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together. Woman's intuition is as perceptive as ever, no?"

[Screenshot caption]
Upon returning to the airship, Yuffie will say 'Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?' regardless of the contents of the conversation of Cloud's conversation."

the word "together" is used quote a lot. meaning this love isnt one sided at all.

and these:

If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."
(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"Night before the final battle......After stopping Hojo's recklessness and before heading to the Northern Crater, the conversation scene with Tifa can diverge drastically depending on Tifa's affection rating. When the affection rating is low, the conversation scene where the two spend the evening is candid and rather short. In the scene on the bridge the next morning, Tifa asks 'Were you listening?' and taps her foot. On the other hand, if the affection rating is high, the two spend the evening in focused conversation, and on the bridge, Tifa asks 'Were you watching?' and collapses in embarassment."

FFVIIUO, pg. 201)


[Screenshot caption]


"Before the final battle......
Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.
(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)


"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

*look at the bold in the last quote. deep subject matter. in other words, mature. so our hunches were right on what Nojima thought was mature.*

now, it may look like the high affection isnt canon since it is noted "if its low, if its high", but look at these.

(FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242)[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game]


(U20 Scenario, pg. 199)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book]

and again, the high affection version is only noted in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, so this blanks out the low affection as not counting and non-canon. in addition:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 27; complete entry)


"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. The next morning, she departs for the Northern Crater along with her companions, who returned.

*this (in the bold) above) is done only in the high affection version of the highwind scene, and is noted on her profile here: http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...s/462/tifa-lockhart-character-profile-p42-47/

*what more can be said? also, if there is any note of the low affection version being said alone, like in the same way the affection version, please contact me at 1-800 It's impossible. the low affection scene, if noted at all, is noted right along with the high affection version. and due to the overwhelming proof of the high affection being declared more times alone than the low affection, we have no choice.*

and i would like to note this quote again:

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."
(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

would tifa's "striking smile" mean anything of the means of "let's hug/cuddle all night"? and when she has mature adult feelings for the man she loves (who reciprocates her feelings)?

Why didn't they show it already? Like in the game afterwards?
Nojima already said the line alone was almost breaking the lines. and as for scenes like X, where we see the clear making out of Tidus and Yuna, S/E had most likely gotten more and more confident, seeing the rating of games has changed overtime. the chocobo stable was left out because the implication was too explicit. anyway, he notes that they maybe should have included it so maybe all this stretching of the HW scene would have never began.

however, for those who admit something did happen under the highwind, but absolutely refuse to admit that certain "something", please note: they couldnt have possibly hugged. it was done before and its not sensible to a risque and mature scene. remember: it was romantically intimate, and given to each other with no objections. this has possibly never been done in a FF game before, and logically follows the risque line and mature setting.
i once even refused to admit it, but according to the truth, ultimately gave in. there is a 99.9% (if not 100%) chance there was a wanted intimate intercourse, or there was some serious making out.
but think: cloud and tifa have had this feeling within them, hiding it for YEARS, slowly building up, and when they are finally alone and are dying inside to show how they both feel...all there is...is just some smooching?

yeah...not seein' it.

They couldn't have had sex on rocks. That's extremely uncomfortable.
i could care less if it was inside a pickle jar. the quotes say something sexual happened. but yes, having sex on rocks WOULD seem a bit ouchie, right? no arguments on that. well, if you look at this quote again:

"Before the final battle......Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)

you will see that cloud and tifa's little party was in the grass. much more comfortable than rocks, dont you think? so you got your wish. this is an example i have been arguing about months, that why could cloud and tifa have sex on rocks when there was grass all around them? finally, my hunch was right.

*What feelings matched?
you mean it's still confusing although the page is entitled "For the one I love", and it's talking about the love of a desired couple?
well, this is the easiest to explain, so the most likely will be the shortest paragraph.


now, lets requote this:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

the key word for this explanation is "mutual". what does "mutual" mean exactly?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mutual?s=t
mu·tu·al [myoo-choo-uhl]
2.
having the same relation each toward the other: to be mutual enemies.
3.
of or pertaining to each of two or more; held in common; shared: mutual interests.

(the reason why you see "2." and "3." is because there were 2 other definitions, but they didnt make much sense. look at the link and youll know what i mean.)


so mutual mean the same. equal. exactly alike. identical. really, pick which word for your own.


heres some help: http://thesaurus.com/browse/mutual?...cct=/browse/blatant&__utmv=-&__utmk=160087997


so what have we learned? the feelings for cloud and tifa (as well as every noted couple on the page) are mutual.


(sub subject question)*


*What are the mutual feelings?


the page title still doesnt mean anything to you does it?


ok, so lets bring up the quote again:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)


"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

"mutual" means the same as matched right? and we know tifa loves cloud romantically (even the most unshakable cleriths admit this), and since it says he (cloud) showed his feelings to her (tifa) that their feelings match -
boom. and the highind scene is what we get. for some utter clarity lets use basic math.


risque (meaning sexually hinting)+cloud wants to let tifa know his feelings are the same -words=
we are not 2 years old so, we can be absolutely sure what happened (unless your addition and subtraction is wrong).*






*(Pirate of the Caribbean spoiler that may be considered to some people major ahead)


(spoilers begin below)


But they were fully clothed.


so were elizabeth and will. and the most we see of them is just some kissing (not even 3 of them). come to think of it, i haven seen or met one person that second guessed what happened on the island.

they wouldnt see each other again for a decade.
this was the last chance of them together for a long time.
they were alone.


but there is always the possibility they could have.....hugged...right?


it is 1997. why in the world would S/E make them NOT have any on when already the fact of cloud walking out and tifa following him (after nervously looking around) was extreme for them? is it some kind of japanese law to always have them off?*


*But we didn't see anything physical happen.


who is arguing that? who would want to see it in the first place except for hentai lovers? our hunches of what elizabeth and will did is confirmed when she has a son the same number of years as long as she and her husband have been separated. (PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN SPOILERS END) how we know feelings of love have been confirmed for cloud and tifa is when he says he can move on with his life because of her, or he says the relationship is "kind of different" - both which are said with a grin - and their starting a family and future together.


(NOTE: I AM NOT NOTING EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AFTER THE HIGHWIND SCENE. i am only noting this one. i want to stay strictly on topic because in this type of debate can jump all over the place if you dont watch out.)


the toned down highwind scene is left for us to know what happened, not for us to see what happened. instead of blatantly telling us what happened it was lowered down to a strong implication to make is have an idea of what went down.
it's like this. if someone, i dunno, made obvious signs of waving his hands in front of his face to indicate while making sounds of disgust to indicate you stunk in front to a crowd of people. and if someone else whispered to you, "Hey, mind taking a shower? You want to be the life of the party, not to smell around everyone."
the difference of the second one isnt that you smell anymore or less than the first one, and in both cases you might be embarrassed. the difference of the second one is that it isnt as proclaiming (or as rude) as the first one.


just look at it this way. on the date with yuffie, when yuffie pleads cloud to "say something!" cloud replies with "something" and you hear a "piff" sound come immediately afterwards. we didnt see it, but we can get the idea that she slapped his face, or hit him, or did something in that range. no questions about that.*


*moreover it shows the aerith date picture but it doesnt speak her name once, and even if it did it didnt speak of clouds feelings (romantic of course), and even then it doesnt say anything of clouds feelings being mutual. there is nothing in these two sentences that support clerith in any way possible.
while it states clear as day of tifa's helping cloud out and sharing his mutual feelings together. not only this, S/E tell us how ("without words") cloud confirmed his love - or his mutual feelings - to tifa.


really what else is there to argue?*


*They could have gave gifts, ect.


no. no they didn't. i don't even think that counts as being halfway physical. anyway, what gifts were there to be given in the scene? i can only think of a few "gifts" they were at instant availability.*

SO:

if you refuse to admit cloud and tifa made love that night, something romantic happened with no hugging or talking. maybe in the remade version S/E will make the scene that was displayed in the first place, but thanks to S/E and Squall of Seed, we know for certain: we aren't leaving this scene without at least a hint something romantic happened. and it happened because they made it that way, because their feelings matched.

thanks yous for readin'.

 

[Starships]

locke is locke and rachel is rachel. they have nothing to do with VII.

I know this. But it was just a example how you can love somebody still despite the loss and love can last despite the death. And that Square has done a love story before that involves somebody feeling guilt and love with somebody that he's lost before and felt like he let die, just like Cloud felt like he let Aeris die. :dave:

i must say, he loves her A LOT. but he just isnt IN love with her.

That makes no sense he loves her but he doesn't love her ?

You speek de English ??

i could care less if people think marlenexhojo is the best couples

I would because that's just so much wrong not only is Hojo a bastard and has nothing to do with Marlene, but it's pedophilia tripled.

 

[Sheechiibii]

That makes no sense he loves her but he doesn't love her ?

I think NothingToSeeHere was trying to say he loves her, but not in a romantic way. Like he loves Zack.

 

[Master Cat]

*steps into the "lion's den"*

To be honest, after playing Crisis Core and learning about Cloud's past in VII, it makes the idea of Zerith more probable to me.

If you agree that Cloud had adopted Zack's memories and characteristics, then it only makes sense that Aerith would be attracted to Cloud and that Cloud would "develop" feelings for her in synch with Zack.

Although I'm not sure how cognizant Cloud was of Zack and Aerith's relationship. Personally, I can't remember if Cloud had witnessed any interactions between Zack and Aerith in Crisis Core -- it's been quite a long time since I played it. ^^;

I'm a fan of Cloti, but I cannot deny the evidence that also exists for Clerith. I also cannot deny the fact that Cloti doesn't necessarily have a "happy ending" in Advent Children. Living together and forming a family of essentially orphans isn't really the typical love story that I had imagined for Cloti when I first played VII.

I'm not suggesting that love cannot exist in unconventional places, but it seems that many of the references to Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel's family life are mixed - both positive and negative evaluations and statements have been made. And there is nothing explicitly stated regarding Cloud and Tifa having a romantic relationship, much less a happy or successful one.

If there were any writings or sources post-Advent Children, then ideally Cloud's guilt over Aerith's death, as well as his "undying love" for her, would have diminished because I interpreted the end of Advent Children as Cloud finally receiving much needed closure. After receiving this closure, Cloud would be able to form a deeper relationship with Tifa without any distractions or hesitation.

But as I said -- this is merely my ideal version of what would follow. While I think that this would be the most logical sequence of events to follow, it obviously has not been officially stated, so there's no telling what would happen really.

There's my 2cents.

Amusingly enough, this post is probably very similar to one of the last posts I made in this thread, but that was probably two dozen pages ago, so I don't think it'll hurt to reiterate it now. >D

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I know this. But it was just a example how you can love somebody still despite the loss and love can last despite the death. And that Square has done a love story before that involves somebody feeling guilt and love with somebody that he's lost before and felt like he let die, just like Cloud felt like he let Aeris die. :dave:

like i said, i never stated in any of my arguments that cloud hates aerith if he doesnt love her romantically. but you have to remember, he didnt only feel guilty about her. it was zack too. he felt guilty about the BOTH of them, and if you insist he loves aerith romantically, hes a bisexual since he feels the same way about aerith to zack. im not denying his love for his friends. it says here

The place where Cloud awakens
That is Cloud's Promised Land


As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.


When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.


And when he turns around- 'she' is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.


Back to the current of life flowing around the planet-."

zack and aerith are loved in the same way, and they are very dear to him. and he places her in the same zone as zack.

That makes no sense he loves her but he doesn't love her ?

i didnt say that. i said he loves her, but he isnt IN love with her, as in romantically. what Sheechiibii said.

You speek de English ??

very well, i would think (minus some typos). i dont speak clerith though. : P

I would because that's just so much wrong not only is Hojo a bastard and has nothing to do with Marlene, but it's pedophilia tripled.

exactly my point. but to another marojo fan it could be beautiful as sephiroth. what im trying to say is that couples are going to be made, good or bad, but you shouldnt really be shaken up by it if they dont declare it as canon. but if they actually try to fight their way to declare it as canon and say the "You can't change my mind about it so just stop" aka "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" thats when you (well, i) must jump in. just because its supported doesnt automatically mean that there is proof of it or its canon. i wouldnt even be here if callisto said clerith is her opinion or her idea on the couple of FFVII. there wouldnt be much to argue on that. but she didnt. so that why im here : P
==============================

Although I'm not sure how cognizant Cloud was of Zack and Aerith's relationship. Personally, I can't remember if Cloud had witnessed any interactions between Zack and Aerith in Crisis Core -- it's been quite a long time since I played it. ^^;

no, its not hinted at all that cloud knew about zack and aerith, although it has been said he places a very obvious zerith point in the credits of ACC. the only time that cloud may have known about zack and aerith maybe that scene in CC, when zack tell him when hes poisoned, " Hey...Cloud....I have to meet this girl....."

If there were any writings or sources post-Advent Children, then ideally Cloud's guilt over Aerith's death, as well as his "undying love" for her, would have diminished because I interpreted the end of Advent Children as Cloud finally receiving much needed closure. After receiving this closure, Cloud would be able to form a deeper relationship with Tifa without any distractions or hesitation.

yea, at the end of both credits (i think, i havent watched the boring 'ol credits but lots of people have claimed this) cloud spends the rest of the day (or evening) with his family.

But as I said -- this is merely my ideal version of what would follow. While I think that this would be the most logical sequence of events to follow, it obviously has not been officially stated, so there's no telling what would happen really.

it has been officially stated that cloud is happiest with tifa, so it would be extremely logical to assume after his guilt was forgiven he, had a deeper relationship with her (and the kids).

Amusingly enough, this post is probably very similar to one of the last posts I made in this thread, but that was probably two dozen pages ago, so I don't think it'll hurt to reiterate it now. >D

yea, i remember reading about you before i joined on here. dont worry, its not annoying at all.

*steps into the "lion's den"*

welcome. i hope the lions dont bite as much as they support clerith.