Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[Six]

WARNING: My quotes are out of order, because I picked out a few things to respond to, went back reading and picked a few more, so this is not in chronological order.

For the sake of staying on topic, I will say this about the LTD overall (including outside of this particular thread): I feel as though CloTi fans are fighting a lost battle - it's a hopeless cause; a lost case.

A lot of Clerith fans feel like they're fighting a lost battle, the only real thing you have to pay attention to is that if you feel like the given opinions make sense, then you have to go with that and believe what pairing is correct. As you can see on (this) forum, there's not a ton of heavy Cloud/Tifa debaters, I personally am, and always have been a non stop Cloud/Tifa supporter. At first, because I absolutely hated Aerith's character, but when I grew out of that, I took the time to listen to other peoples opinions, no matter how much I hated the fact that they were supporting another character, everything Cloti's say has something they assume to break it with, and everything Clerith's say Cloti's have something to break it with.

Why? Because neither pairing has ever, ever been officially confirmed as Canon. I can guarantee you that EVEN IF a pairing would be confirmed OFFICIALLY canon? People will argue the Official source to tell them they're wrong. =] Both parties, not just one.

I've been meaning to throw my 2cents in here, but honestly I'm a bit afraid of my argument being ripped to shreds! xD;
I've never been much of a "debater." Plus, many of the things I would have said have already been mentioned and regurgitated a million times by CloTi fans (hint hint on which pairing I support!).

Arguements usually get ripped to shreds, I am not a fan of debating mainly because I feel a lot of people are narrow minded, and do not stay clear of peevish feelings. A lot of things the Cleriths have said have been stated multiple thousand of times already as well, so do not hesitate, throw in your points! This is, after all! A never ending circle!!!!!

Now...

I called it Cloud's Love Triangle because I was tired of people coming into the LTD thread and saying that the LTD was about Aerith and Tifa having feelings for Cloud when really the LTD is about who CLOUD loves and has feelings for. I don't give a crap for Zack's feelings because he's been long since kicked outta Aerith's love life (by Aerith!) so I wanted to avoid people coming in here talking about their feelings when I want people to discuss CLOUD'S feelings.
Does that make sense?

It makes sense that you wanted it to be about Cloud's feelings, however, if you are going to ask who Cloud has feelings for, it's Tifa. Reason he joined SOLDIER was for her, to have her notice him, now, please spare me the dim crush comment, because to go to SOLDIER and beyond for and with this woman, is not a dim crush.

I solved it! CloTi is canon! (Put down your guns. ) Anyway.

Ever played 10? It's a tragic love story just like Cloud and Aerith. Like Cloud, two years after the death of the person Yuna loved (Tidus) she believed he was dead and she still continued to love him. Tidus returned to her, yes, but during the years she thought he was dead Yuna still loved him. So what's stopping Cloud?

...Common sense? Reality? The real world? The actual love of his life? His feelings for Tifa?

For instance, many Cloti fans (including myself at one point) believe that Cloud and Tifa shared a sort of childhood romance together; I believe it's even referred to as a "dim crush." Although I wish that their feelings could have flourished since childhood, I'm a bit reluctant to even fathom the possibility now. Cloud was a shy, introverted little boy that was not able to hang out with Tifa because most of the time she was surrounded by the other village children. According to that fact, he was barely even able to spend time with her, let alone become true friends with her.

You don't have to be friends in order to be attracted to someone, if you look at the actual play through of the game, Cloud and Aerith barely spend any time together at all, and people think it's enough for love to develop. While I disagree about love developing in such a short amount of time you can definitely be attracted or become interested in them in that time period. So, actually... Cloud and Aerith didn't stand a chance 'cause there was not enough time for Cloud to develop something.

Aside from that, and this is not me bashing on any character, but Tifa sticks through Cloud through thick and thin, literally. This woman is by his side whenever he needs her, she worries about him, she cares deeply for him, all she wants is for him to be safe, happy.

Aerith on the other hand, wasn't she the girl that fell in love with Zack, and then as Cali stated it Zack was 'kicked out of her life' BY AERITH, because this girl couldn't believe Zack went to hell and beyond for her to make sure he got back to her, didn't get the letters, or wasn't able to make it back home to her? I wouldn't WANT a girl like that. Zack was crazy about this girl, and she discards him because he takes to long getting back to her, because he's dead.

And I'm sure that will get bashed with "Omg! She couldn't have known that!" or "Omg! People move on!" Yes, people do move on, and considering her past, I think for once, Aerith would step back rather than throw herself in Cloud's face in front of Tifa, because it's clear Tifa shares an insane amount of feelings for Cloud, and Cloud does for her, he wouldn't risk his life multiple times for this girl, and still allow her to come along.

Aerith runs off and gets herself killed, rather than sticking together. What use was she going to be if Cloud was attacked? Oh, she wouldn't have known again, he would've died and be kicked out of her life just like Zack. Tifa in the other hand, sticks close, protects, needs protecting, she HAS his back, and she's had it since the very beginning.

That night at, the last scene at the HighWind, having had sex or not, is not something I'm concerned about, if they did that doesn't make them shallow, but how the story continues doesn't seem like they had it, however, you don't need to have sex to prove you love someone. Cleriths claim to know this, so.

Before anyone bites my head off about this being Aerith bashing, it's really not, it's merely a wake up call to those who tend to forget, or are glad she discarded Zack out of her life.

To come back to the original quote above my paragraphs of typing, they might've not known each other well enough, but they WERE neighbours, lived RIGHT next to each other, you might not know someone personally, but you know them. If Tifa wasn't interested, she wouldn't have come out to the well that late at night to show up for someone she "never" spoke too. She wanted him to hang out with her, but her friends didn't allow it. DO NOT put this on Tifa, guys. Honestly. She's not that kind of 'character.'

What I think is clear and has always appeared clear to me in the game is this - Tifa likes Cloud, Cloud liked Tifa when he was younger, Aerith likes Cloud, and depending on the players decisions Cloud returns the affections of one girl.

You got it. On top of the fact you said that Aerith's feelings are questionable on every level.

Honestly, Aeris' death really complicates things because, as you had mentioned, it's difficult to tell whether or not Cloud's feelings are so strong because of his guilt or because he actually harbors such passionate feelings for her.

Cloud's feelings are only made out to be so difficult because most of the spin-offs or actual story revolve around it, have you read, what's the name... On the way to a Smile cases? LETS GO HEAVY DETAIL ON TIFA'S FEELINGS.

Tifa went to see Aeris together with her companions. Aeris, who was now at the bottom of the Forgotten City's spring. The world she was going to save in exchange for her life would surely be all right now. That's what they were told. Tifa heard a voice asking if she was all right. She didn't know if it was Aeris' voice or her own. She cried. Right after Sephiroth took Aeris' life, she wasn't grieving. She was sad, but she changed the sadness into the anger and hatred for the enemy. But the pain she felt when she visited the place tore her heart apart. While enduring the pain, she thought to herself how she was made this way by being part of a large group of people and an Avalanche member. She overflowed with tears again.

"I'm sorry, I'm really sorry."

She felt Cloud's hand on her shoulder. He was holding onto her firmly as if he didn't want her to go anywhere. For now, I'll just let myself cry as much as I want. I'll leave the rest in his hands.

I just didn't know what I should do.

Heavy details, does this mean she's in love with Aerith too? NO. It's grief, it's guilt, JUST LIKE, in my opinion, Cloud's strong feelings tied towards Aerith. His FRIEND died, HE could've prevented it, SHE WAS KILLED by SEPHIROTH, who had already taken SO MUCH away from him, wouldn't you feel overwhelmed?

ANYWAY, I'm really... annoyed I have to cut this short. Work duties call. Might be back around later! Although this debate always gets my blood boiling. =[

 

[EnigmaPhenomenon]

Hello noobie deabater here so please forgive me for any errors.

@ Engima

Yes but have you seen these quotes ? I think it shows that Cloud does feel gulit towards Aerith's death. After all; who wouldn't ? Though also shows love for her as well.

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion


Also this quote :


Tifa put the paper away with the others as if nothing happened. But she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant Cloud was traveling around his past too. She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn't protect Aerith. Cloud was on the verge of overcoming it but now, going back to the place where he and Aerith got separated meant that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart apart once again. ~Case of Tifa

Tifa calls it the place where Cloud and Aerith got separated. She's recognizing Aerith's death as a personal loss for Cloud. She's not saying that's when Aerith got separated from Avalanche, but from Cloud in particular.

So while Cloud does feel gulit and depression over Aerith's death, Square has also shown us that he also feels something deep towards her that isn't gulit but is instead love for her. While there is gulit; Cloud also loves her and misses not being with her like he was before. And while Avanachle has Aerith in their hearts, Cloud having Aerith in his heart is a whole different meaning.

Yes I'm familiar with those quotes. I didn't say Cloud NEVER felt guilt over Aerith's death. Cloud's guilt was a big part of him shutting himself off from others. At the end of ACC he's healed of it, so that's what I mean when Cloud's "undying feeling" isn't that of guilt because his guilt is healed. Cloud doesn't have anymore guilt towards her death but I'm sure he wishes it never happened, this doesn't mean he's in love with her. I wish the death of my brother never happened and I don't love my brother in a romantic way (that'd be.....weird....)

But if you mean love like feeling love for someone like a friend or in a platonic way then yeah, Cloud loves Aerith but isn't in love with her. Though honestly that's up to us to decide. You believe it's romantic love and I believe it's general love.

Especially with the quote saying she lives on in the heart of all her friends and in particular to Cloud as a symbol of his sin/failure, his sin/failure was failing to protect those he cares about. It doesn't say she's the symbol of his guilt, though her death did cause him guilt it just reinforces he feels bad for his "failure" to protect those dear to him. So much so, that he starts doubting whether he can protect any of the others dear to him. No one in AVALANCHE is said to feel this way, Aerith is not a symbol of sin/failure to anyone else but Cloud. But that's my perspective on it. I'm sure for you its a different perspective though, which is fine.

Lol. noob debater?let's be noob debaters together, yes?

 

[Sheechiibii]

@Sheechiibii

Well, its pretty self explanatory; If Cloud has a feeling for Aerith that is different than what her friends have; what else could it be? Either all her friends lover her romantically and Cloud harbors friend feelings or vice versa; Her friends are exactly that Friends and Clouds feelings are different than her Friends. How does undying feeling somehow translate to never forget? If Nomura wanted to say "He'd never forget her" he would habe said that -- like he has in other interviews/compilations additions.

Nowhere in that quote you provided did it say that Cloud's feelings were different than her other friends. It said that they all loved her and that Cloud too loved her, there was no mention of his love being different from the rest.

Its not my view Cloud says himself why he feels the way he does about Aeriths death and why he's exactly angry; he tells Sephiroth his plans for world destruction don't mean anything -- where has Cloud ever even come close to stating he's only guilty because he nearly killed her himself? I never recall him or creators saying anything like that.


"She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing
her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him." ~ Maiden of The Planet

Maiden of the Planet as well already tols us WHY he was suffereing; and its because she and he are separated, not because he had unresolved guilt for beating her -- He already got to apologize for this -- its redundant to insist this of all things is the reason he suffers in lonliness over Aeriths death.

Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plandon't mean a thing. Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain? My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!

Nope, never once did he say anything about having nearly killed her himself; only thing that matters as he has said is that Aerith is gone -- and now the plans Sephiroth had to desroy the world mean nothing. Saying otherwise is just putting words in Clouds mouth.

Yes, but the things he says could be said about a friend. I know I'd be extremely upset if someone I cared about was killed like that in front of me, I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same things Cloud describes in that moment. That doesn't mean it's romantic. I didn't say he mentions he's guilty, but that doesn't mean he's not feeling it after she's gone. At the time he was grieving and all in his mind was the loss of her. Besides, people don't tend to actually mention 'I'm feeling so guilty' do they? More like they show it.


I mean, what would it say about his character is he didn't feel guilty for what happened and the way it did? I can't say he felt guilty with 100% certainty, but that's the way it came across to me, just like to you it came across that he loved her. I do think if he didn't feel guilty though that his characters would be pretty much destroyed. I mean, he battered her the last time he saw her and then almost killed her and then just stood there while she was killed; how could he not feel guilty?

I know I don't have my heart shatter over anything; hearts shatter and break over love and romance, and Clouds heart shattered when Aerith died, or like Maiden Of The Planet said; when HE lost her. I already told you is feelings are undying and opposite of friend feelings like Nomura said in the 2007 interview. Put two and two together Undying Feeling + Opposite to Friend feelings.

Hearts shatter for lots of different reasons. Typically someone's death will always break hearts of their loved ones, not just romantic relations either. I mentioned above about Nomura's quote which says nothing about his feelings being different to that of her friends.

Denzel is healed, everyone cheers and Cloud smiles to everyone around the church, not once does he solely smile at Tifa. He smiles at Aerith. This is a fact, you try to make it sound as if Cloud: Smiles, sees Aerith and doesn't give a second glance no. He smiles at Aerith.

My point stands also; Aerith was the only woman in FFVII/AC to make Cloud feel like he was no lopnger alone.

I've watched the scene I know what happens. Cloud is smiling at everyone but there's a part where you see a close-up of Tifa smiling and then see Cloud smiling back before he looks at others again. I didn't mean to make it sound bad but the fact is Cloud actually doesn't smile until Aerith is gone so if you're saying he doesn't smile at Tifa when they're looking at each other and smling then he certainly isn't smiling at Aerith when she's already left the church. It really doesn't matter that much anyway, all I was saying was that there is symbolism there, Cloud is happy with Tifa and everyone else and Aerith leaves with Zack. It very much comes across that Cloud is letting go of Aerith and all the guilt and hurt he's held onto all this time.

And all this is the way you want to see it, there IS evidence to prove Cloud and Aerith are in love and that Cloud himself feels and holds romantic feelinsg for her; because like I said; He's got an undying feelings different than friendship, his heart shattered for her, HE was separated from HER, He is called her LOVER in CoL:White, the international comercials call them a "LOVE", she's in his heart, they went on TWO dates etc. etc.

Two dates? One of them depended on the players choices throughout the game so it can't be called canon. It comes back to my initial point – that there is no definitive answer to the LTD because it was always meant to be one or the other dependant on player choices.

You keep moving the goal post; one moment He only smiles at Tifa and that equates love somehow but when his heart shatters for Aerith, it means nothing xD Its both impossible and kind of annoying.

He never even answers Tifa''s phone calls and somehow they are in love? If you love someone they should and are supposed to be able to help you through any and all problems you have. Especially if said person lpoves them back. Or at least answer the phone.

I didn't say that his smiling at Tifa equates to him loving her at all, I said it looked like the two pairings were together at the end – Cloud with Tifa and Aerith with Zack. I never said his smiling at her showed he loved her.

-クラウドは女の友人であり、恋人であり——大切なものの象徴であり、守るべき存在だった。
-Cloud wa onna no yuujin de ari , koibito de ari —— taisetsu na mono no shouchou de ari , mamoru beki sonzai datta
-Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (koibito)---he is a symbol for something important, an existence that she must protect.
- Case of Lifestream: White

The above was written my Nojima himself, and somehow they aren't in love? I can't possibly see how you can be lovers and not be in love; I mean thats a little odd. This among many other things (going on dates) have established Cloud and Aerith shared a romance.

I've seen that translated differently and it was written as beloved – meaning she loved him which I've never argued against. I just don't think he loved her back.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong. ~ ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback

I also can't see how he'd suffer in lonliness if he had the woman he loved -- allegedly Tifa in this case -- with him, I mean she always wanted to talk and try to help, but he's still suffering in lonliness?

So he no longer has to suffer in loneliness because Aerith is leaving? That makes no sense if he loved her – if he loved her he'd feel more lonely watching her leave him again.

“there seems to be something between them”. [Aerith’s info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega]

Again, how can there be something between them, and not have romane between them; on one hand we have a guy who goes on dates with her, keeps her in his heart, has an undying feeling/opposite friendship for her, and had his heart shatter when she only left his side....?

That sentence is extremely vague, there is something between them on Aerith's side and there is something between them if the player plays that way but this quote doesn't have to mean anything more than that – it could if that's the way you play the game. That's the beauty of being vague.

It’s just that...I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder…
-- Tifa, DISMANTLED

Even Tifa noticed there was something between them almost immediately; like we have established Tifa obviously liked/loved Cloud and she saw reason between Cloud/Aerith to be jealous and sidpleased at their interest in eachother and closeness.

“Good friends” “I was fond of her too soon” - how does this indicate that Cloud loved Aerith on a romantic level? I think I remember Aerith being jealous of Tifa ta the beginning of VII too.

Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. ~ Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Not only are they buidling a two-person world, but its one even Tifa is jealpous of; and as I said above we all know Tifa like or loved Cloud; and now she's jealous and insecure about Aertih?

That was in response to Cloud and Aerith's conversation in the cells, where Aerith mentioned her date with Cloud. It was in response to Aerith's flirting that she said “EXCUSE me” which is the scene that quote was about. Put in context it makes sense that Tifa would be upset that Cloud and Aerith were getting closer.

It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had knowni this was coming I would have done things differently.' -- Nomura, concerning Aeriths death, Edge, Magazine, 2003

If Cloud didn't and doesn't love her, why and how exactly is there a connection between losing someone you love very much and the way Cloud lost Aerith? Personally, if Nomura himself is going to see the obvious similarities between Cloud/Aerith and A love Story, I will to.

As I've said, love is not exclusive to romantic relationships. Nomura said all her friends loved her, does that mean they were all in love with her? No it doesn't so it doesn't mean that for Cloud either. I've never said he didn't care about her and love her as a friend, I just don't think it was romantic. Perhaps if she hadn't died and they'd spent more time together he would have chosen her but I still think it would have been up to the player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q94akM503ek

Here it is. As well as the French version;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_kY7U6jeSU

“A love that could never be”. Well that's because she died, there was little time for them to fall in love and they didn't have a chance even if your decisions led you to Aerith instead of Tifa.

Oh I know that was really to the person who said that, not really sure who it was now that I think about it. I just saw it somwhere here.

Thats the thing, Cloud doesn;t answer the phone BEFORE he ever finds Denzel, or contracts Geostigma -- not only is he not calling her during Advenmt Children, he wasn't calling her long before that.
When Cloud first meets Denzel; it was when the kid was on his phone to Tifa; and Tifa had just finished saying "Cloud? You never call!", this is a flashback scene Denzel has in ACC.

Actually yes, Cloud does go there because he feels peace; thats actually true.

If Cloud loves Tifa shouldn't he feel peace with her? I mean once again here he is needing to run to Aerith to feel better, feel peace and have some sort of comfort, I mean Tifa did try -- but Cloud ignored her.

What about Zack? Cloud let Zack die and you don't see him living on the hill where he was laid to rest? Why is Aerith so special? Why does Cloud & the Creators specify HER death being the reason he shuts himself off and falls into suffering lonliness? Cloud never even grieved over Zack -- so WHY is Aertih special.

I didn't mention the Geostigma as a reason for why Cloud was distancing himself from people, however that is the reason Cloud himself states (I've quoted It further down). I said that he was distancing himself because of the guilt about Aerith and not feeling worthy of his friends. Cloud forgot about Zack, that's why he never grieved for him in the game. As for in AC I think he was guilt ridden by what happened to Zack as well, hence why we do see him on the hill and why he carries Zack's sword with him all the time. The difference with Aerith is that he almost killed her himself, twice.

I never said he wasn't bothered by losing her, ofcourse he was! He suffers in lonliness without her; I just don't agree with the way you say he only "suffers because he beat her/nearly killed her"; thats not only wrong but never even stated anywhere and totally obscure from what actually was said and happened -- Cloud heart shattered because HE was separated from HER, because he lost her, because like he said she was gone.

I didn't mean to sound like I thought he only suffered because of his guilt, I do think he misses her and I do think he is upset over loosing her, but I think it's platonic, I don't think it's because he's in love with her. I'm not saying that's impossible or not an option – it's as much an option as Tifa is. Because the game gives you a choice between them.

I am playing it right now and believe me; she's heavily there, like all the time. I mean Cloud went to SHinra risking his own life and freedom for her, when on a date in the park, learned about her history from Elmyra, dressed as a guy for her, left Midgar and ultimately cared about the Planet because her and many other things JUST for her.

Yes, notice how all the things you mention happen at the start of the game? After Midgar she's not really there unless you played towards her in the beginning and subsequently throughout.

Well it "hardly being development" is your opinion, because the creators themselves said; something was between them, hell, even Tifa saw that rigth away.

Just like it's your opinion that it is adequate development. As for what the creators say, I can quote too to back up pretty much all I have said.


“Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.”


“The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud… ”


“Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off. ”


“With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward. ”


“Even after rediscovering his true self and beginning a new life, he is bound by a sense of guilt and mostly keeps the same sullen expression.”


“Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.”


-- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.


“And having 2 heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.”


-- Yoshinori Kitase interview


I don't really think any of these need explaining, they're all pretty self explanitory. All these quotes are taken from the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania (and only two parts of it). I don't really know where to find this kind of stuff so I just used one of the places you got your information from Imagine how much I'd find if I actually knew where to get it. Anyway, hope this proves my point that both Aerith and Tifa have strong cases behind them because there was never meant to be a definitive answer, Cloud loves one or the other based on the player's decisions, hence why there's so much debate.

Wanderluster I'm not ignoring you, but it took me ages to reply with this and I don't want to imagine how much longer it would take to reply to your answers too. I hope some of what I've written here will answer most of your points as well.

Xx..xX

 

[The Witch]

It's okay, I mainly just wanted the last paragraph in my post answered I myself is quite busy and can't post as much as I wish to. So take your time. :3

I'm writing my reply though over the days and saving it as a document in microsoft word so I will get back to all of you.

EDIT: quick question

this quote:
“Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off. ”

Who is this quote talking about, in your opinion?

 

[Sheechiibii]

Read the quote again.
Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

It begins by stating that Aerith's friends (Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Tifa, Reeve, Red XIII) all have their own feelings and love for Aerith--obviously those feelings/love are platonic. And then Nomura says that Cloud harbors his OWN undying feeling for Aerith. Nomura made a difference between the platonic love of Aerith's friends and Cloud's undying feeling. What's oposite of platonic love/feelings?

Romantic love/feelings.

Now, let's add in the UNDYING word to this whole thing. It can be one of three feelings that can be undying for Cloud;

a.) Hatred
b.) Guilt
c.) Love

( It cannot be undying feelings of friendship because Nomura said Cloud's feelings are his own and are different from the platonic feelings/love of her friends. )

Now, it cannot and never will be undying feelings of hatred, we can all agree to that, I hope.(But please, if anyone wants to try and claim Cloud hates Aerith I will gladly prove them wrong.) Cloud's undying feelings cannot be of guilt because Nomura said that Cloud's guilt was lifted and healed after Advent Children, meaning his guilt wasn't undying. Now, the last term that could be undying is love.

Now, I believe it IS love and here's why.

Cloud has Aerith engraved in his heart (NOT LITERALLY), it's been stated that he'll never forget her, Cloud feels at peace with Aerith, and longs to be with her in HIS promised land. Those are just the three major things that can prove Cloud has an undying love for Aerith.

AND, if this quote isn't as romantic or important as you said it is, then why haven't we had something just like it or more significant said for Tifa? Cloud having an undying feeling for Aerith is far far far more than anything that's ever been said for Tifa and Cloud. So once again, if this wasn't romantic how come we haven't had something to top it for Cloud and Tifa?

“Cloud also carries his own undying love for Aerith”, “each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith” - they all carry love for her that is unique to each character, they all have a different relationship to her, but there's no definition of any of their love being stronger than the other or more important. Nomura does not say that Cloud's love is different from theirs, in fact he uses the same words to describe it; “carries their own feelings and love” ; “Carries his own undying feeling”. Cloud is mentioned and his feelings explained because he's the main character, he's the one concerned in this situation, it's his story and his feelings that are most important . The quote doesn't say that his feeling is stronger or anything like that it says that just like all her comrads, he carries his own feelings and love for Aerith.

Undying only means that she'll never be forgotten, that his feelings for her will always stay with him. This is the case anytime someone looses someone they care about – that feeling doesn't go away, it stays with them forever, it's undying. That doesn't mean it has to be romantic, it can absolutely be feelings of friendship. Hopefully you'll see where I'm commng from now with my first paragraph as far as his feelings being different are concerned

I think the rest you mentioned I covered in my last post

EDIT to answer your edit

EDIT: quick question

this quote:
“Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off. ”

Who is this quote talking about, in your opinion?

Both about Aerith and about Zack. Mostly Aerith though because her circumstances were worse for Cloud due to him nearly being the one to kill her. This is the guilt I've been talking about. The reason why he distanced himself from Tifa and the rest of his friends. He doesn't think himself worthy of them, he feels weak and powerless to protect his family and friends.


Xx..xX

 

[Saints&Storms]

Nowhere in that quote you provided did it say that Cloud's feelings were different than her other friends. It said that they all loved her and that Cloud too loved her, there was no mention of his love being different from the rest.

The quote says and specifies Tifa and the rest of AVALANCHE as Aeriths Friends, as her now officially stated friends we know what exactly they "love and feeling" for Aerith is; Friendship; hence them being stated as such, her friends and Comrades. Then Cloud is singled out as having an undying feeling ALL HIS OWN for her -- if its not like the feeling her FRIENDS/COMRADES have and is his OWN feeling and its not his guilt because its been abolished in Advent Children we all know this, its not friendship or he would have been lumped with her "comrades" what else compiled with (they're date, having something between them, keeping them in your heart and breaking your heart when losing them) could it be?

Let me post the quote for you again --

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carrieshis ownundying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

Keyword being "HIS OWN"

Yes, but the things he says could be said about a friend. I know I'd be extremely upset if someone I cared about was killed like that in front of me, I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same things Cloud describes in that moment. That doesn't mean it's romantic. I didn't say he mentions he's guilty, but that doesn't mean he's not feeling it after she's gone. At the time he was grieving and all in his mind was the loss of her. Besides, people don't tend to actually mention 'I'm feeling so guilty' do they? More like they show it.


I mean, what would it say about his character is he didn't feel guilty for what happened and the way it did? I can't say he felt guilty with 100% certainty, but that's the way it came across to me, just like to you it came across that he loved her. I do think if he didn't feel guilty though that his characters would be pretty much destroyed. I mean, he battered her the last time he saw her and then almost killed her and then just stood there while she was killed; how could he not feel guilty?

The fact that Aerith was killed infront of him has never been mentioned or stated as a differing factor by Cloud or anyone for that matter, undoubtedly yes, its makes it worse but its never once been surfaced as a reason for Cloud's feeling of immense loneliness and sadness; let alone the reason his heart broke. Saying that it is, is just grasping at straws.

I agree Cloud is guilty but also MUCH more than that. Because he still carries his own undying feeling for her even passed the guilt factor. Watering it down is just wrong, I mean an undying feeling for someone could be but one thing.

His heart broke when she died, he didn't care about the planet after she was gone, and he was willing to give up and didn't know what to do once she was taken from him (as stated in Maiden of The Planet); that's how I see it, I see it as his heartbreaking, like its been said, I see it as him suffering in loneliness with out her, as stated, I see it as him not caring about world destruction without her -- that's all we need to know, until he does/says ALL this stuff for a friend -- it simply can't be watered sown.

And insisted on the fact that he beat her and nearly killed her himself being the prominent factor is just mind blowing, because Cloud has never said that, Nomura or Nojima have never really said that; and its never even been mentioned.

Hearts shatter for lots of different reasons. Typically someone's death will always break hearts of their loved ones, not just romantic relations either. I mentioned above about Nomura's quote which says nothing about his feelings being different to that of her friends.

But his heart broke just because she left his side, before she was even on the alter as far as Cloud knew, Maiden Of The Planet states such; his heart is broken simply from being separated from her. Not only after she dies when he loses a part of himself as well.

When she left her companions and headed for the Forgotten City, Cloud's heart was like an egg that was on the verge of cracking open. It wasn't going to crack open like the way an egg hatched but, as if only the yolk was going to seep out of it. It was as if his mind was going to shatter. She wanted to comfort him. If she wasn't the last survivor of the Cetra she probably would have done so without a doubt.
However...
~ Maiden of the Planet

And again you completely misread and missed that quote because like I said and pointed out above; Nomura says Cloud has HIS OWN undying feeling for her, he was not lumped with her "comrades", if they were friend feelings why specify Cloud in a singular manner? And again the key-word used there is "HIS OWN"

I've watched the scene I know what happens. Cloud is smiling at everyone but there's a part where you see a close-up of Tifa smiling and then see Cloud smiling back before he looks at others again. I didn't mean to make it sound bad but the fact is Cloud actually doesn't smile until Aerith is gone so if you're saying he doesn't smile at Tifa when they're looking at each other and smling then he certainly isn't smiling at Aerith when she's already left the church. It really doesn't matter that much anyway, all I was saying was that there is symbolism there, Cloud is happy with Tifa and everyone else and Aerith leaves with Zack. It very much comes across that Cloud is letting go of Aerith and all the guilt and hurt he's held onto all this time.

All I said was that he smiles at everyone around the church room, there's not a single stop and stare smile at Tifa, she looks at him and he continued to rotate his view across the room looking to the children and his friends as well -- he smiles at and around the entire church. I didn't say Cloud doesn't smile at all at her, I said he smiled around at everyone -- Tifa isn't singled out like Aerith is Cloud and Aerith have a slow motion, the screen pauses on both their faces and Cloud smiles. If it didn't matter why did you bring it up? I personally don't see how smiling at someone is purely romantic its cute but not romantic. That "Symbolism" has never even been mentioned by an actual creator or commentator; therefore its sort of speculation to say there is a symbolism there.

Two dates? One of them depended on the players choices throughout the game so it can't be called canon. It comes back to my initial point – that there is no definitive answer to the LTD because it was always meant to be one or the other dependant on player choices.

Actually no, Nomura himself said Aeriths date is canon. Its been canonized as the official date, as if Cloud and Aerith agreeing to such didn't already Nomura and Dismantled stated as such as well. She is the normal choice;

1. In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith. ~ FFVII Dismantled

And when Aerith and Cloud sit in the park before spotting Tifa, this has been stated as a date as well. Similar to Zack and Aeriths first date.

I didn't say that his smiling at Tifa equates to him loving her at all, I said it looked like the two pairings were together at the end – Cloud with Tifa and Aerith with Zack. I never said his smiling at her showed he loved her.

It looking like soemthing to you, isn't really a factor. Because Aerith admits she no longer loves Zack and Cloud and Tifa as stated by Nomura he has no clue if they are or ever have been in a relationship. But bring up people smiling at people makes it seem as though it mattere; I guess I interpretted it wrong.

I've seen that translated differently and it was written as beloved – meaning she loved him which I've never argued against. I just don't think he loved her back.

I guess that a matter of opinion, which is an argument no one can win. Being someones koibito/lover/Beloved can't be one sided, its kinda odd to say such.

So he no longer has to suffer in loneliness because Aerith is leaving? That makes no sense if he loved her – if he loved her he'd feel more lonely watching her leave him again.

She helped him rid himself of his guilt, the quote is referencing him finally forgiving himself, thats pretty self-expmlanatory, but I don't see the need for semantics and playing on words.

That sentence is extremely vague, there is something between them on Aerith's side and there is something between them if the player plays that way but this quote doesn't have to mean anything more than that – it could if that's the way you play the game. That's the beauty of being vague.

No. The Ultimania Omega simply says there is soemthing between them, the phrase something between them in common knowledged and romance culture generally meaning "feeling, romance" etc. The Ultimania Omega never says "On Aeriths side" there is something between them, to suggest that is again grasping at straws; Simply -- there is something betweent them, its a fact.

“Good friends” “I was fond of her too soon” - how does this indicate that Cloud loved Aerith on a romantic level? I think I remember Aerith being jealous of Tifa ta the beginning of VII too.

Becoming already good friend by the time they've known eachother for two days, they are growing close fast; they are getting together/along very easily. I never said it menat he loved her; just that the two of them at the bginning were already very close and continued to grow together until sharing a two person world.

Ah, no. Aerith has never been jealous of Tifa, save for in Maide of The Planet when she envies her being able to be alive.

Still doesn't answer the question; why does someone who obviously loved or like Cloud feel the need to be jealous over "nothing but good friends" I mean seems kind of silly for Clouds "Love Interest" assumed to be Tifa to be jealous of the lump of bread who was barely there if you choose.

That was in response to Cloud and Aerith's conversation in the cells, where Aerith mentioned her date with Cloud. It was in response to Aerith's flirting that she said “EXCUSE me” which is the scene that quote was about. Put in context it makes sense that Tifa would be upset that Cloud and Aerith were getting closer.

Exactly, they are getting closer and Tifa even knows that there is something to be jealous of; it doesn't matter why or where it happened, Tifa who knew Cliud since childhood saw reason to be jealous and envious of Aerith and him.

Not to mention they still have their own two-person world. Excluding Tifa.

As I've said, love is not exclusive to romantic relationships. Nomura said all her friends loved her, does that mean they were all in love with her? No it doesn't so it doesn't mean that for Cloud either. I've never said he didn't care about her and love her as a friend, I just don't think it was romantic. Perhaps if she hadn't died and they'd spent more time together he would have chosen her but I still think it would have been up to the player.

Once again you are butchering the quote, Nomura clearly states Cloud has his OWN undying feeling for her, singling him out from the rest of her comrades, he is specified and mentioned solely to have HIS OWN undying feeling FOR Aerith. Playing on semantics is going to get this no where. Since when has any of Aeriths firend had an undying feeling for her, suffered in lonliness with out her, mind and heart shattered for her, built their two person with her, and prolaimed the world meant nothing to them without her? None.

Speculations don't really play a part in a debate in my opinion. Saying stuff about them is pointless.

“A love that could never be”. Well that's because she died, there was little time for them to fall in love and they didn't have a chance even if your decisions led you to Aerith instead of Tifa.

Once again, no. They are already a love and now they can't be because she is dead. Point and case? They are a love story, let alone the fact thet the french version says "Un amore impossible" translated as "An impossible Love".

I didn't mention the Geostigma as a reason for why Cloud was distancing himself from people, however that is the reason Cloud himself states (I've quoted It further down). I said that he was distancing himself because of the guilt about Aerith and not feeling worthy of his friends. Cloud forgot about Zack, that's why he never grieved for him in the game. As for in AC I think he was guilt ridden by what happened to Zack as well, hence why we do see him on the hill and why he carries Zack's sword with him all the time. The difference with Aerith is that he almost killed her himself, twice.

So, he wasn't calling Tifa, answering her calls and moved out all for Aerith? Thats pretty much what I've been saying this entire time, all the more reason Cloud clearly is not in a relationship with Tifa, or even nearly in one with her. Either way Cloud wasn't calling Tifa or talking to her; henceforth they are not in love or in a blooming relationship. No, Cloud says "But I let you die" and hears Aeriths voice; he only speaks about breaking a promise to live out his legacy, once. Never once has letting Zack been the focus of his guilt Cloud himself asks for Aerith forgiveness; Not Zack. Not to mention he wants her foirgiveness "...more than anything." So, what exactly did Cloud say on that hill; you sort of omitted this line.

"I said I'd live out both our lives, easy to make that promise...."

He's giving up on a promise he made to him; how exactly is that comparable to shutting himself away from everyone because Aerith as Cloud has stated he was? I don't see him asking for Zacks forgiveness more than anything -- only Aeriths.

Yes, notice how all the things you mention happen at the start of the game? After Midgar she's not really there unless you played towards her in the beginning and subsequently throughout.

These are but a few things that are shoved in our face, and they are the most important things, he's never done these things for anyone else, I mean what we see of Tifa in the beggining is Cloud refusing to help her unless paid, forgetting their promise, taking money from a kid Tifa's raising, wasting time to go around and make sure Aerith doesn't go in a whore house alone and not caring about "AVALANCHE or the planet" as he has said.

Its not optional for Cloud to sit near Aerith (Cosmo Canyon) and tell her he's there for her, its not optional for him to say the world's destruction means nothing, its not optional, its not optional for him to accompany her to the temple of the ancients (where he refuses to wake from a dream because what he did to her), asking her who he was [Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---" ~Cloud's monologue, Death scene, FFVII Dismantled] -- its not opitonal for him to think of Aerith all the time, its not optional for him to want to meet her in The Promised Land/Heaven and much more but why does it matter at which disk this happens on?

Just like it's your opinion that it is adequate development. As for what the creators say, I can quote too to back up pretty much all I have said.

Its not my opinion that Cloud has HIS OWN undying feeling for her, went on dates with her, suffered in loneliness after her death, his heart broke for her, he closed himself off after losing her, wanted HER forgiveness more than anything, she was taken from him, lost a piece of himelf without her, claimed the world didn't matter without her, had no idea what to do without her, had soemthing between them, built their two person world, felt his "child" was brought to him by HER, lived in her Church and called it "his place", keeps her in his heart, feels at peace in her church and stopped answering Tifa's calls because of her. Thats all fact. All these things he's never done for ANY friend; and you speculate he would, even though he has not.

I don't really think any of these need explaining, they're all pretty self explanitory. All these quotes are taken from the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania (and only two parts of it). I don't really know where to find this kind of stuff so I just used one of the places you got your information from

Imagine how much I'd find if I actually knew where to get it. Anyway, hope this proves my point that both Aerith and Tifa have strong cases behind them because there was never meant to be a definitive answer, Cloud loves one or the other based on the player's decisions, hence why there's so much debate.

What does alll this prove? You can't copy paste random stuff and expect me to understand what you mean by it or were trying to prove?

I never said Aerith being important to Cloud was exclusive proof he loved her, but for some reason you single certain things out in my poits and ignore the others.

The Family Thing -- Of course Cloud feels like they are his family; they are, how is this romantic for Cloud/Tifa, does he also love Marlene? I mean, one of the kids he's "raising" he feels was given to him by Aerith; pretty much thinking of her as a maternal figure for Denzel, not to mention he thinks SHE gave HIM a CHILD - making her a MOTHER/WIFE figure -- Wives give men children, thats what Cloud sees Aerith as doing for him with Denzel.

Yes, WE ALL KNOW he's guilty for her death and HER DEATH alone, but YOU watered it down as he's guilty simply because he nearly did it himself, and yes you keep saying you don't mean to but then you keep saying afterwards; Cloud UNDYING feelings for Aerith are not that of her friends and are ALL HIS OWN -- he's rid of his guilt he got her forgiveness and forgave himself -- his feelings are more than guilt.

"--and mostly keeps the same sullen expression.”

He's still depressed even though Tifa A. is there with him B. went into his mind and helped him and C. wants to build a new life with him? How is this a good thing for Cloud and Tifa; she's there and he still only thinks about Aerith.

“Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.”

When Cloud finds Denzel at the Church, Denzel plays with Cloud phone and Tifa's hears him crying; she thinks it is Cloud and says "Cloud? You never call!" and then asks if its him crying. Cloud was infron of Aeriths church when he found Denzel; hence already living there.

Then to further contradict what you have posted here; in Case of Tifa he tells her he found him at "his place"; the quote you have posted directly contraditced ACC and COT. You are either trying to imply ACC, AC and CoT are not canon or....what I don't really understand here.

Not long after that, Cloud brought Denzel home with him. Denzel was already unconscious when he was brought into the bar. It was Geostigma. Cloud said the syndromes looked like they just started not long ago. As Tifa nursed Denzel, she thought of how there many children who were also infected with the same disease. There were many facilities setup for children who had lost their parents. Yet, why did Cloud bring Denzel here? Just when Tifa was going to ask him, Cloud muttered something.
"This kid came to my place."
"What do you mean?"
"I mean..."

---

"Denzel had collapsed in front of the church where Aerith used to be. That's why I thought Aerith lead him to "my place"".
Saying all that in one breathe, Cloud looked away.

 

[Sheechiibii]

The quote says and specifies Tifa and the rest of AVALANCHE as Aeriths Friends, as her now officially stated friends we know what exactly they "love and feeling" for Aerith is; Friendship; hence them being stated as such, her friends and Comrades. Then Cloud is singled out as having an undying feeling ALL HIS OWN for her -- if its not like the feeling her FRIENDS/COMRADES have and is his OWN feeling and its not his guilt because its been abolished in Advent Children we all know this, its not friendship or he would have been lumped with her "comrades" what else compiled with (they're date, having something between them, keeping them in your heart and breaking your heart when losing them) could it be?

Let me post the quote for you again --

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloudalso carrieshis ownundying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

Keyword being "HIS OWN"

It does not specify that they are her friends and Cloud is not it specifies that all her comrads (that includes Cloud since you seem to be missing that) have their own feelings and love for her, including Cloud who will never forget her.

“Cloud also carries his own undying love for Aerith”, “each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith” - they all carry love for her that is unique to each character, they all have a different relationship to her, but there's no definition of any of their love being stronger than the other or more important. Nomura does not say that Cloud's love is different from theirs, in fact he uses the same words to describe it; “carries their own feelings and love” ; “Carries his own undying feeling”. Cloud is mentioned and his feelings explained because he's the main character, he's the one concerned in this situation, it's his story and his feelings that are most important . The quote doesn't say that his feeling is stronger or anything like that it says that just like all her comrads, he carries his own feelings and love for Aerith.

Undying only means that she'll never be forgotten, that his feelings for her will always stay with him. This is the case anytime someone looses someone they care about – that feeling doesn't go away, it stays with them forever, it's undying. That doesn't mean it has to be romantic, it can absolutely be feelings of friendship.

On another note, this quote is obviously in response to a question asked by the interviewer, what was it he was asked I'd be interested to know? There's another quote that describes almost exactly the same thing:


Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. ~Aerith's Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania


In particular to Cloud, meaning she still lives on in his heart like the rest of her friends (they all have undying feeling for her), but that he is more affected by it (he has his own feelings) because of his guilt over her death and his failure.

The fact that Aerith was killed infront of him has never been mentioned or stated as a differing factor by Cloud or anyone for that matter, undoubtedly yes, its makes it worse but its never once been surfaced as a reason for Cloud's feeling of immense loneliness and sadness; let alone the reason his heart broke. Saying that it is, is just grasping at straws.

I agree Cloud is guilty but also MUCH more than that. Because he still carries his own undying feeling for her even passed the guilt factor. Watering it down is just wrong, I mean an undying feeling for someone could be but one thing.

His heart broke when she died, he didn't care about the planet after she was gone, and he was willing to give up and didn't know what to do once she was taken from him (as stated in Maiden of The Planet); that's how I see it, I see it as his heartbreaking, like its been said, I see it as him suffering in loneliness with out her, as stated, I see it as him not caring about world destruction without her -- that's all we need to know, until he does/says ALL this stuff for a friend -- it simply can't be watered sown.

And insisted on the fact that he beat her and nearly killed her himself being the prominent factor is just mind blowing, because Cloud has never said that, Nomura or Nojima have never really said that; and its never even been mentioned.

I think you misunderstood me here. I didn't say that his words had anything at all to do with hig guilt, if that's what you thought I meant then you're mistaken. I said that I think his guilt is what makes him so distant later on (in AC and so on). His words at that time are definitely in response to his pain over loosing her and I never meant to imply otherwise. My initial point about what he says at the time of her death was only that there was nothing in it more than friendship. I would feel the same way if someone I cared a lot about was killed right in front of me. Undying means he'll never forget her, his feelings will never die – that says nothing about what his feelings are though so doesn't really add to your argument at all.

But his heart broke just because she left his side, before she was even on the alter as far as Cloud knew, Maiden Of The Planet states such; his heart is broken simply from being separated from her. Not only after she dies when he loses a part of himself as well.

When she left her companions and headed for the Forgotten City,Cloud's heart was like an egg that was on the verge of cracking open. It wasn't going to crack open like the way an egg hatched but, as if only the yolk was going to seep out of it. It was as if his mind was going to shatter. She wanted to comfort him. If she wasn't the last survivor of the Cetra she probably would have done so without a doubt.
However...
~ Maiden of the Planet

And again you completely misread and missed that quote because like I said and pointed out above; Nomura says Cloud has HIS OWN undying feeling for her, he was not lumped with her "comrades", if they were friend feelings why specify Cloud in a singular manner? And again the key-word used there is "HIS OWN"

I hate to sound like I'm repeating myself but he had just hurt her pretty badly, that's not something you can just ignore because it doesn't suit your argument. If he didn't feel broken after that then I don't know what kind of character you see him as. It doesn't need to be said by a creator of the game, I hardly think if they were asked that they'd say he never felt bad about hurting her like that. Then she runs off to the Forgotten City where he knows she'll be in danger. He was worried about her, he was agonising over what he'd done.

All I said was that he smiles at everyone around the church room, there's not a single stop and stare smile at Tifa, she looks at him and he continued to rotate his view across the room looking to the children and his friends as well -- he smiles at and around the entire church. I didn't say Cloud doesn't smile at all at her, I said he smiled around at everyone -- Tifa isn't singled out like Aerith is Cloud and Aerith have a slow motion, the screen pauses on both their faces and Cloud smiles. If it didn't matter why did you bring it up? I personally don't see how smiling at someone is purely romantic its cute but not romantic. That "Symbolism" has never even been mentioned by an actual creator or commentator; therefore its sort of speculation to say there is a symbolism there.

Why did I bring it up? I wasn't even arguing or debating at the time at all. Am I not alowed to say anything unless it has been quoted by a creator? I saw something that to me indicated that this was the way things would be – Cloud with Tifa and Aerith with Zack – and I wrote it down here where we're meant to be posting our ideas about the pairings. For the record though, Cloud does not smile at Aerith, the slow motion has him with no smile at all, it's not until after she has left with Zack that he smiles which symbolises to me that he is letting her and the feelings of guilt and sadness that have plagued him go.

Actually no, Nomura himself said Aeriths date is canon. Its been canonized as the official date, as if Cloud and Aerith agreeing to such didn't already Nomura and Dismantled stated as such as well. She is the normal choice;

1. In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith. ~ FFVII Dismantled

And when Aerith and Cloud sit in the park before spotting Tifa, this has been stated as a date as well. Similar to Zack and Aeriths first date.

'Generally' being the key word. The first time I played the game I never took sides and I didn't get the Aerith date. Maybe that's odd or whatever, but that's the way it was when I played it and I couldn't care less about the romance at the time. If something in the game changes from player to player then it's not set in stone and is not what I'd call canon.


I know that the park was considered a date by Aerith because that was the bargain for getting them out of the church and away from the turks. I wasn't disputing that.

I guess that a matter of opinion, which is an argument no one can win. Being someones koibito/lover/Beloved can't be one sided, its kinda odd to say such.

Beloved means someone who is loved, not someone who nessesarily loves in return. It's not the same as lover, so it really depends on the translation. If it had been Cloud who said Aerith was his beloved then it would mean something, as it is all it says is that she loves him, which we already knew.

She helped him rid himself of his guilt, the quote is referencing him finally forgiving himself, thats pretty self-expmlanatory, but I don't see the need for semantics and playing on words.

But that's not something I was ever arguing against, if anything it supports my own ideas. It doesn't do anything to prove her love her.

No. The Ultimania Omega simply says there is soemthing between them, the phrase something between them in common knowledged and romance culture generally meaning "feeling, romance" etc. The Ultimania Omega never says "On Aeriths side" there is something between them, to suggest that is again grasping at straws; Simply -- there is something betweent them, its a fact.

“Seems to be” does not mean there is for a start. Then there's the fact that 'something' could mean anything from Aerith's crush to their promised date. It's vague.

Becoming already good friend by the time they've known eachother for two days, they are growing close fast; they are getting together/along very easily. I never said it menat he loved her; just that the two of them at the bginning were already very close and continued to grow together until sharing a two person world.

Ah, no. Aerith has never been jealous of Tifa, save for in Maide of The Planet when she envies her being able to be alive.

Still doesn't answer the question; why does someone who obviously loved or like Cloud feel the need to be jealous over "nothing but good friends" I mean seems kind of silly for Clouds "Love Interest" assumed to be Tifa to be jealous of the lump of bread who was barely there if you choose.


Exactly, they are getting closer and Tifa even knows that there is something to be jealous of; it doesn't matter why or where it happened, Tifa who knew Cliud since childhood saw reason to be jealous and envious of Aerith and him.

Not to mention they still have their own two-person world. Excluding Tifa.

We know they got along well though, I've never said they didn't. Cloud grew to care about her a lot in a short amount of time. You're probably right about Aerith (I did say I think) it might have been after one of the choice conversations so isn't canon. Tifa was jealous because she loves Cloud and Aerith loved Cloud too and she knew it, she felt threatened by Aerith and her budding friendship with Cloud. Jealosy doesn't have to be over what is, it can be over what could be as well. Tifa wanted to be with Cloud and was jealous of how close Aerith was getting to him.

Once again you are butchering the quote, Nomura clearly states Cloud has his OWN undying feeling for her, singling him out from the rest of her comrades, he is specified and mentioned solely to have HIS OWN undying feeling FOR Aerith. Playing on semantics is going to get this no where. Since when has any of Aeriths firend had an undying feeling for her, suffered in lonliness with out her, mind and heart shattered for her, built their two person with her, and prolaimed the world meant nothing to them without her? None.

Speculations don't really play a part in a debate in my opinion. Saying stuff about them is pointless.

See my explanation above over why Nomura has never said Cloud's love is different or stronger than the love her other friends felt.


Speculation mght not mean anything to you, but in case you forgot, my whole point from the very beginning is that there is no canon pairing for ffvii, that it's up to the player to decide, depending on people's choices over the course of the game. I'm not and never have been saying that Clerith is not canon and that Cloti is, I'm saying that I believe in Cloti and my reasons why, but that it's not anymore canon than Aerith. When talking about something so dependant on individual opinion, speculation is relivent.

Once again, no. They are already a love and now they can't be because she is dead. Point and case? They are a love story, let alone the fact thet the french version says "Un amore impossible" translated as "An impossible Love".

It doesn't say they were already a love, it says their love could never be. That does not mean they were in love, it means they never can be.

So, he wasn't calling Tifa, answering her calls and moved out all for Aerith? Thats pretty much what I've been saying this entire time, all the more reason Cloud clearly is not in a relationship with Tifa, or even nearly in one with her. Either way Cloud wasn't calling Tifa or talking to her; henceforth they are not in love or in a blooming relationship. No, Cloud says "But I let you die" and hears Aeriths voice; he only speaks about breaking a promise to live out his legacy, once. Never once has letting Zack been the focus of his guilt Cloud himself asks for Aerith forgiveness; Not Zack. Not to mention he wants her foirgiveness "...more than anything." So, what exactly did Cloud say on that hill; you sort of omitted this line.

"I said I'd live out both our lives, easy to make that promise...."

He's giving up on a promise he made to him; how exactly is that comparable to shutting himself away from everyone because Aerith as Cloud has stated he was? I don't see him asking for Zacks forgiveness more than anything -- only Aeriths.

“Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.


“The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud… ” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.


Cloud wasn't staying away because he was unhappy, he was staying away because of his guilt and dissapointment in himself because of what had happened with Aerith (and to a lesser extend Zack). Tifa and the children are described as his famly, he leaves them because he feels unworthy of protecting them. He fears loosing them like he has lost people in the past. It's never mentioned that he leaves because of his love for Aerith or even because he's still grieving over her, but that he leaves because of his guilt and is fear of repeating past mistakes.

When Cloud finds Denzel at the Church, Denzel plays with Cloud phone and Tifa's hears him crying; she thinks it is Cloud and says "Cloud? You never call!" and then asks if its him crying. Cloud was infron of Aeriths church when he found Denzel; hence already living there.

Then to further contradict what you have posted here; in Case of Tifa he tells her he found him at "his place"; the quote you have posted directly contraditced ACC and COT. You are either trying to imply ACC, AC and CoT are not canon or....what I don't really understand here.

I'm not trying to contradict anything, I'm supplying quotes directly from Cloud's character profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] anniversary ultimanium. This states that the reason Cloud leaves his family is because of Geostigma and the guilt he is suffering over his past failures. His guilt and failure stems from Aerith, hence why he feels more at peace in her church and begins living there.

These are but a few things that are shoved in our face, and they are the most important things, he's never done these things for anyone else, I mean what we see of Tifa in the beggining is Cloud refusing to help her unless paid, forgetting their promise, taking money from a kid Tifa's raising, wasting time to go around and make sure Aerith doesn't go in a whore house alone and not caring about "AVALANCHE or the planet" as he has said.

Its not optional for Cloud to sit near Aerith (Cosmo Canyon) and tell her he's there for her, its not optional for him to say the world's destruction means nothing, its not optional, its not optional for him to accompany her to the temple of the ancients (where he refuses to wake from a dream because what he did to her), asking her who he was [Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---"~Cloud's monologue, Death scene, FFVII Dismantled] -- its not opitonal for him to think of Aerith all the time, its not optional for him to want to meet her in The Promised Land/Heaven and much more but why does it matter at which disk this happens on?

Do you know why Aerith gets more scenes early on in the game? It's because during development they realised that since Aerith dies half way through the game Tifa had far more scenes than she did, so they increased her scenes:

“Compared to Tifa, Aerith has fewer scenes and didn’t really stand out, so we also increased her appearances.” -- Tetsuya Nomura interview for the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania


They wanted Tifa and Aerith to be on the same level because they wanted Cloud to have a choice between them, depending on the player:


“And having 2 heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.”-- Yoshinori Kitase interview for the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania


Tifa gets less of a chance at the beginning because she has more of a chance later in the game, which Aerith doesn't have.


My point was that she's barely in the game other than the start when you're introduced to her and at her death unless you play towards her. As I said before though, I'm sure it's the same for Tifa, she's likely not in the game very much if you play towards Aerith in the choices.

Its not my opinion that Cloud has HIS OWN undying feeling for her,

Just like she lives on in the hearts of all her friends, 'undying' means it'll never die, she'll always be loved by her friends. Doesn't mean Cloud was or is in love with her.

went on dates with her,

Went on a date after spending less than a day with her (which was only hanging around a park). That really spells out true love doesn't it?

suffered in loneliness after her death,

Of course he did, his guilt ate at him and he'd just lost a precious friend. Doesn't mean he was in love with her.

his heart broke for her,

When someone dies, whether they are a lover a friend or a relative, hearts break. Doesn't mean he was in love with her.

he closed himself off after losing her,

Yeah, because of his uilt, because of his failure and that he'd failed to protect a friend.

wanted HER forgiveness more than anything,

Why was that? Because he was nearly the cause of her death perhaps? Because he wasn't strong enough to move to save her and had to watch her die right in front of him.

she was taken from him,

Yes she was, as was Zack doesn't mean he loved him .

lost a piece of himelf without her,

He lost a piece of himself when Zack died even more than Aerith. He was so badly damaged that he wasn't even himself anymore. He was still recovering when he lost Aerith. When someone close to you dies a piece of you dies with them, irespective of if you're in love with them or not.

claimed the world didn't matter without her,

In the moment she died it didn't matter, he was grieving and torn apart by what he'd done and how he'd failed her.

had no idea what to do without her,

When you loose someone you love, thinking clearly is not something you can do. When was this though?

had soemthing between them,

Seemed to be....something...these words hardly indicate something solid, a real love or a real relationship. More likely they hint at what might have ben had she lived.

built their two person world,

Built it? No, they were building it, they were growing close but never had the time to finish building anything. My best friend and I have a two person world whenever we're together, we certainly are not in love.

felt his "child" was brought to him by HER,

He thinks this because he met him outside Aerith's church where he was thinking of Aerith. Doesn't mean he loved her, why would it? Merlene was given to him by Barret, he doesn't love Barret does he?

lived in her Church and called it "his place",

Yes he did, because he felt at peace there, where there were no other people, where he could feel less like he would hurt others like he'd hurt her. He called it his place because that's where he was living.

keeps her in his heart,

As the rest of her friends do.

stopped answering Tifa's calls because of her.

Stopped answering Tifa's calls and living with her and Marlene because of contracting Geostigma and because of the guilt his past failures made him suffer and fear loosing his new family.

Thats all fact. All these things he's never done for ANY friend; and you speculate he would, even though he has not.

It's your opinion that all the things in the game equate to him being in love with her though. That's your interpretation, your speculation.

What does alll this prove? You can't copy paste random stuff and expect me to understand what you mean by it or were trying to prove?


The Family Thing -- Of course Cloud feels like they are his family; they are, how is this romantic for Cloud/Tifa, does he also love Marlene? I mean, one of the kids he's "raising" he feels was given to him by Aerith; pretty much thinking of her as a maternal figure for Denzel, not to mention he thinks SHE gave HIM a CHILD - making her a MOTHER/WIFE figure -- Wives give men children, thats what Cloud sees Aerith as doing for him with Denzel.

Yes, WE ALL KNOW he's guilty for her death and HER DEATH alone, but YOU watered it down as he's guilty simply because he nearly did it himself, and yes you keep saying you don't mean to but then you keep saying afterwards; Cloud UNDYING feelings for Aerith are not that of her friends and are ALL HIS OWN -- he's rid of his guilt he got her forgiveness and forgave himself -- his feelings are more than guilt.

"--and mostly keeps the same sullen expression.”

He's still depressed even though Tifa A. is there with him B. went into his mind and helped him and C. wants to build a new life with him? How is this a good thing for Cloud and Tifa; she's there and he still only thinks about Aerith.

“Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.”

I didn't think it was nessesary to explain each one since I thought it was obvious which of my points it was refering to. I'll explain further though and counter what you've said.


“Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off. ” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.


I never watered down his guilt, I don't know why you ever thought I did. What I said was that the reason why he thinks of Aerith a lot and suffers so much more than everyone else over her death is because not only did he loose an important friend, but also because of his horrible guilt.

“With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward. ” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.


I'm not saying that this proves he and Tifa are in love, but this is one of the reasons why I believe they are almost in a relationship and that the only thing holding them back was his guilt and suffering over past faults. You provided quotes that would hold importance to a Clerith fan but that didn't prove anything towards it and I have provided quotes the same for Cloti. The truth is there are no quotes for Cloti or Clerith that will prove one over the other, because that's not the way it's meant to be; we're meant to make the decision ourselves.



What kind of family figure would you say Tifa is to him then? A Sister? Someone who he used to have a crush on he now thinks of as a sister? If he just thought of her as his friend he wouldn't refer to her as his family, family and friends are not the same thing.

“Even after rediscovering his true self and beginning a new life, he is bound by a sense of guilt and mostly keeps the same sullen expression.” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.


Again, this supports my opinion that Cloud's thoughts of Aerith and his inability to move on from her death are because of his guilt, not because he's in love with her.

“Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.

Cloud didn't just up and leave his family who he was so happy with, he left because of fear of loosing them, he contracted Geostigma which he knew would kill him and he didn't want to hurt the ones he loves. He wanted to protect them, but didn't know how, he left powerless and his past failures only add to this. You make it sound as though he never spent any time with Tifa at all.

Xx..xX

 

[Saints&Storms]

It does not specify that they are her friends and Cloud is not it specifies that all her comrads (that includes Cloud since you seem to be missing that) have their own feelings and love for her, including Cloud who will never forget her.

You are either purposely butchering the quote and omitting that Nomura gives Cloud is OWN part of the sentence, since you seem to miss that Nomura specifies that Cloud has HIS OWN feeling not to mention its undying or you refuse to see what has actually been said and shown. Let me show you the quote again;

I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith.

This is the phrase dealing with her comrades, Cloud is not included.
The later part of the interview, the second sentence deals and specifies Cloud alone and SINGLES him out apart from her friends.

In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

Here we see Cloud being dealt with, SEPERATELY, being singled out from the crew -- he has HIS OWN feeling that is also undying. Two things play him apart from her comrades; Nomura says he has HIS OWN feeling for her and it is an UNDYING feelings. These two factors place him away and above from the "Comrades" that Cloud WAS NOT lumped together with.

If Cloud is simply Aeriths "Friend" like you say he is; WHY did Nomura feel it neccasary to set him apart from the "comrade" title and give him a special feeling and undying different from her "comrades"? Why not lump another "friend" with the rest of the "friends"?

(The word meaning comrade here is Nakama it can mean "friend" or "comrade".)

On another note, this quote is obviously in response to a question asked by the interviewer, what was it he was asked I'd be interested to know? There's another quote that describes almost exactly the same thing:


Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him,she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. ~Aerith's Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Wow, you'd clearly love to make it out to seem as though Cloud's undying feeling for Aerith is guilt and guilt alone; Sorry, but no. Clouds guilt is gone after Advent Children, henceforth, unable to be an undying feeling -- let alone one he carried to the present day. Clouds undying feeling is not guilt.

A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for eternity. -- Dirge of Cerberus, Game Manual

Close but no cigar, simply living on in their hearts isn't even close to being engraved in their hearts for eternity. Trying to make that kind of connection between the two quotes is really farfetched.

But at least you brought a quote that backs up the fact; that Aerith is the reason Cloud left 7th Heaven, stopped calling Tifa, stopped answering her calls and gave up on his and Zacks promies. Like I've been saying this whole time. Yet another thing that Cloud has never done for anyone else -- let alone his friends.

In particular to Cloud, meaning she still lives on in his heart like the rest of her friends (they all have undying feeling for her), but that he is more affected by it (he has his own feelings) because of his guilt over her death and his failure.

Quote please? Because Nomura never once said "all friends carry and undying feeling for her", you are just completely putting words into the quote that aren't there; if the rest of her friends had an undying feeling for her Nomura would have said so -- you are omitting that line into this interview when it has NEVER been mentioned or hinted at, Not to mention Nomura never said "Cloud is juts more bothered by it that's all" you are making this stuff up out of thin air and speculation.

That's like me saying all Clouds friends helped him regain his true-self or some such thing. Clearly me omitting the truth. Tifa and Aerith were the only two who did this.

You don't see me speculating and making stuff up, so you saying Nomura said all her friends have an undying feeling for her, or that Cloud is simply more bothered by is just not right, let alone fair.

I think you misunderstood me here. I didn't say that his words had anything at all to do with hig guilt, if that's what you thought I meant then you're mistaken. I said that I think his guilt is what makes him so distant later on (in AC and so on). His words at that time are definitely in response to his pain over loosing her and I never meant to imply otherwise. My initial point about what he says at the time of her death was only that there was nothing in it more than friendship. I would feel the same way if someone I cared a lot about was killed right in front of me. Undying means he'll never forget her, his feelings will never die – that says nothing about what his feelings are though so doesn't really add to your argument at all.

Thats nice, but its just your thoughts. You said "Yes, but the things he says could be said about a friend. I know I'd be extremely upset if someone I cared about was killed like that in front of me" as if her being killed in front of him was the majoring factor of his feelings and words at her death...

I agree it is Aerith that makes him distance himself not Geostigma or anything else only here; Aerith is the reason he ignores Tifa's call to him and doesn't even call her, as well as living in her church and calling it his place; He ignored who people would otherwise try and paint as his love interest -- Tifa -- all for Aerith, he closed himself off from Tifa solely because of Aerith.

I know his words are directly a response and reaction to her death; but what is he saying? He's saying he'll miss her laugh, smile, her anger and everything else about her, then follows it by asking what he's supposed to do without her as well as exclaiming that the world and its destruction means nothing now that she's gone. These are all things he's never said or DONE for ANYONE else.

No, Undying means UNDYING meaning, that the feeling will never go away or fade, no doubt he'll never forget her, but an undying feeling means an undying (unable to die) feeling. If Nomura wanted to convey Cloud never forgettign her he would have said that instead like he has numerous times before.

To imply he meant to say otherwise is pure speculation.

I hate to sound like I'm repeating myself but he had just hurt her pretty badly, that's not something you can just ignore because it doesn't suit your argument. If he didn't feel broken after that then I don't know what kind of character you see him as. It doesn't need to be said by a creator of the game, I hardly think if they were asked that they'd say he never felt bad about hurting her like that. Then she runs off to the Forgotten City where he knows she'll be in danger. He was worried about her, he was agonising over what he'd done.

So, you are basically saying his mind shattered from her simply leaving his side, JUST because he inflicted damage on her that he had already apologized and gotten forgiveness for? No, I hate to inform you -- but when you say "this is why that happened" you are simply making stuff up. It tells us WHY his mind shatters directily before hand;

When she left her companions and headed for the Forgotten City,Cloud's heart was like an egg that was on the verge of cracking open. -- Maiden of The Planet

There is a reason that is says "When she left..." and opens the fragment about Cloud with a comma, because "her leaving" being said reason for Clouds heart breaking. Its your interpretation that his heart is breaking because he beat her but its not the reason; his heart cracks because she is not by his side any longer.

I love Cloud, please don't try to imply that I see him in any negative light. Because if Cloud would do this for any friend or anybody at all; why does he not say all these things when he finds Tifa in the Nibelheim reactor slashed by Sephiroth? When he thought she was a "Goner"? You SAY he'd do this for anyone but he never has.

But a cry came through to her.

It wasn't the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul - It was the sound of Cloud's heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith's death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth. ~ Maiden of the Planet

If all her friends felt that way, why did she solely feel Clouds cry and no other? Why aren't the other friends hearts breaking as well as Clouds? Why once again is Cloud being singled out among the others, if he as well as the rest is just a friend?

Why did I bring it up? I wasn't even arguing or debating at the time at all. Am I not alowed to say anything unless it has been quoted by a creator? I saw something that to me indicated that this was the way things would be – Cloud with Tifa and Aerith with Zack – and I wrote it down here where we're meant to be posting our ideas about the pairings. For the record though, Cloud does not smile at Aerith, the slow motion has him with no smile at all, it's not until after she has left with Zack that he smiles which symbolises to me that he is letting her and the feelings of guilt and sadness that have plagued him go.

No, its not that but why post in a debate thread with no intention of debating, its a little strange. I mean you brought up him smiling at her like it actually happened or meant something. Then said some stuff about symbolism thats never been officially mentioned. No, I think anyhting not mentioned by a creator is mere assumption or speculation. You can say anything you want but its won't have much effect. After she left? Really? when he see's her and she says "See...? Everything alright" then he smiles and say "I know, I'm not alone."

'Generally' being the key word. The first time I played the game I never took sides and I didn't get the Aerith date. Maybe that's odd or whatever, but that's the way it was when I played it and I couldn't care less about the romance at the time. If something in the game changes from player to player then it's not set in stone and is not what I'd call canon.

What? What are you talking about, Nomura says if you play normally Aerith comes she the natural choice. Anything else would be the opposite of normal which is "abnormal", you are picking at straws by cherypicking the word generaly here. The KEY WORD is NOMRALLY, not generally.

Beloved means someone who is loved, not someone who nessesarily loves in return. It's not the same as lover, so it really depends on the translation. If it had been Cloud who said Aerith was his beloved then it would mean something, as it is all it says is that she loves him, which we already knew.

"Cloud is the womans, freind and lover" its a completely possesive sentence, there's no way its can be from a one sided point of view and like I said whether you want to believe "Koibito" means beloved is your opinion; because they's been on dates and thats enough to back that word up. Nomjima wrote this not Aerith, how in the world can Aerith refer to her-self as "the woman"? That, makes no sense.

But that's not something I was ever arguing against, if anything it supports my own ideas. It doesn't do anything to prove her love her.

"Seems to be” does not mean there is for a start. Then there's the fact that 'something' could mean anything from Aerith's crush to their promised date. It's vague.

You played on words saying he lost his loneliness because she left stating it made no sense; which was semantics, I never said you argued that, I explained why Cloud lost his loneliness and no longer has to suffer from it.

Its a date...? How is that vague, thats romantic interest from Cloud right there for accepting it, thats madness to insert the idea of Cloud wanting a date as "not romantic", "seems to be" meaning there "appears to be" something between them. Thats common grammar. You can argue what the "Something" is but arguing English phrases and whether dates are romantic is ludicrous.

Lest we forget that this quote is referring to their date in the park.

We know they got along well though, I've never said they didn't. Cloud grew to care about her a lot in a short amount of time. You're probably right about Aerith (I did say I think) it might have been after one of the choice conversations so isn't canon. Tifa was jealous because she loves Cloud and Aerith loved Cloud too and she knew it, she felt threatened by Aerith and her budding friendship with Cloud. Jealosy doesn't have to be over what is, it can be over what could be as well. Tifa wanted to be with Cloud and was jealous of how close Aerith was getting to him.

I know you didn't I was explaining it since you seemed to not understand what it meant when you posted before. I was debunking your belief about Aerith baerly being there is you so choose. Which is false.

I never said Tifa being jealous meant Aerith and CLoud loved eachother; but that there was indeed romance between CLoud and Aertih since Tifa -- who loves Cloud -- was even jealous of them and what was between them. It never says she was jealous of their "friendship" you are making thinsg up. It simply says they are close and Tifa gets Jealous. Tifa didn't know how Aerith felt, thats speculation. Aerith even told her she didn't in the Dons Mansion. So ~ Tifa DIDN'T know Aerith loved him, let alone was that the reason for her jealousy.

Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings. ~10th Anniversary Ultimania

She is jealous because they are building their two person world and thats the catalyst for her jealousy, not because they are friends; why would she even get jealous over them being friends? Thats ridiculous and has never been mentioned.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud. Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in
mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely
dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. ~ Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania:


If jealousy doesn't mean anything, why did you feel the need to justify it by saying Aerith was also jealous before?

See my explanation above over why Nomura has never said Cloud's love is different or stronger than the love her other friends felt.

That "explanation" explained nothing, it miscontrued lines and made thinsg up.

Speculation mght not it m mean anything to you, but in case you forgot, my whole point from the very beginning is that there is no canon pairing for ffvii, that it's up to the player to decide, depending on people's choices over the course of the game. I'm not and never have been saying that Clerith is not canon and that Cloti is, I'm saying that I believe in Cloti and my reasons why, but that it's not anymore canon than Aerith. When talking about something so dependant on individual opinion, speculation is relivent.

Well, thats what I am arguing; whats canon and not. Who of the two pairings are the intended and meant to be pairing. Because I have stated that Cloud and Aerith are canon and there is and has been a love between them. And I have posted quotes to back it up. Things CLouds done for ehr and no one else and so on. I never said you said any was canon but thats why we're supposed to be arguing here.

It doesn't say they were already a love, it says their love could never be. That does not mean they were in love, it means they never can be.

I just told you what it says in French, they are an "impossible love", impossible yes, but still a "love"; not to mention the European commercial "A story of a bitter war of love and hate" showing Cloud and Aerith for "love" and Sephiroth for "hate".

Cloud wasn't staying away because he was unhappy, he was staying away because of his guilt and dissapointment in himself because of what had happened with Aerith (and to a lesser extend Zack). Tifa and the children are described as his famly, he leaves them because he feels unworthy of protecting them. He fears loosing them like he has lost people in the past. It's never mentioned that he leaves because of his love for Aerith or even because he's still grieving over her, but that he leaves because of his guilt and is fear of repeating past mistakes.

Yes, I never said he was leaving or distant because he wasn't happy, I said he wasn't callling Tifa A. long before he got Geostigma and B. found Denzel -- and he was ignoring her all and only because of Aerith. Not Zack, adding him is making things up and is not true.

I never said he left because his love for Aerith, only that he ignores THIS woman -- Tifa -- because of another woman -- Aerith, if he loved Tifa, how could he place another woman above her? And not even call her but live in Aerith Church?

I'm not trying to contradict anything, I'm supplying quotes directly from Cloud's character profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] anniversary ultimanium. This states that the reason Cloud leaves his family is because of Geostigma and the guilt he is suffering over his past failures. His guilt and failure stems from Aerith, hence why he feels more at peace in her church and begins living there.

And I am supplying several quotes, novellas, and scenes from the movie itself Advent Children Complete, that are far more in multiple quotes than that Ultimania that clearly contradicts Case of Tifa as well as the Movie.

Because Cloud had Geostigma only after he found Denzel, which was when he was at Aeriths church, I just showed you the Case of Tifa quote as well as told you what happened in Advent Children, but you are ignoring them for some reason and not even adressiong them.

We have Case of Tifa from 2005 AS WELL as Advent Children Complete from 2009, clearly showing that is wrong, I am not saying the FFVII;10TH AU is not canon but when it clearly contradicts two other compilation entry's, CoT and ACC are correct here.


Heres the quotes from Case of Tifa again;

Not long after that, Cloud brought Denzel home with him. Denzel was already unconscious when he was brought into the bar. It was Geostigma. Cloud said the syndromes looked like they just started not long ago. As Tifa nursed Denzel, she thought of how there many children who were also infected with the same disease. There were many facilities setup for children who had lost their parents. Yet, why did Cloud bring Denzel here? Just when Tifa was going to ask him, Cloud muttered something.
"This kid came to my place."
"What do you mean?"
"I mean..."

"Denzel had collapsed in front of the church where Aerith used to be. That's why I thought Aerith lead him to "my place"".
Saying all that in one breathe, Cloud looked away.

Do you know why Aerith gets more scenes early on in the game? It's because during development they realised that since Aerith dies half way through the game Tifa had far more scenes than she did, so they increased her scenes:

“Compared to Tifa, Aerith has fewer scenes and didn’t really stand out, so we also increased her appearances.” -- Tetsuya Nomura interview for the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania

And? That just shows how important she is, contradicting what you believed as her barely being there. Which is strage because nearly most everything for everyone is optional after that. So stating as much was very stranged. What factor does this play? That the felt Aerith was just important enough to add so much scenes for her? I have to say I agree.

They wanted Tifa and Aerith to be on the same level because they wanted Cloud to have a choice between them, depending on the player:


“And having 2 heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.”-- Yoshinori Kitase interview for the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania


Tifa gets less of a chance at the beginning because she has more of a chance later in the game, which Aerith doesn't have.

Says right there the hero "wavers between them" not the player. Cloud had a cursh on Tifa as a kid, and loves Aerith now; doesn't say anything or anywhere about player choice here. Tifa didn't even exist at first does that mean thay only added her so Aerith and Cloud had more interaction?

You didn't say Aerith doesn't have a chance after she died; You said she's barely there if you so choose to leave her out. Which I informed you was false; of course she wasn't there after her death. She's dead. But even then she's constantly mentioned by Cloud or some third party.

My point was that she's barely in the game other than the start when you're introduced to her and at her death unless you play towards her. As I said before though, I'm sure it's the same for Tifa, she's likely not in the game very much if you play towards Aerith in the choices.

I told you tht false. Then I showed you all the NON optional scenes in the beginning, which you felt meant nothing because they were in the start of the game; because she has all these romantic scenes, Tifa being jealous, dates etc. While Tifa's non-optional scenes are Cloud forgetting her promise, taking cash from her friends kid, and telling her he doesn't care about the planet or AVALANCHE -- a group she's in.

Just like she lives on in the hearts of all her friends, 'undying' means it'll never die, she'll always be loved by her friends. Doesn't mean Cloud was or is in love with her.

The quote doesn't say her "FRIENDS" have undying feelings, dude, you are making tha up, it only says CLoud has an undying feeling; not once does it say anywhere that her friends have an "undying feeling" only that they have a feeling and love for her.

Cloud Strife is the ONLY one with an undying feeling, as well as being set aside from her "Nakama/Comrades/Friends"

Went on a date after spending less than a day with her (which was only hanging around a park). That really spells out true love doesn't it?

I never said they were in love by that time, but hey if you say so. Thats two more dates than hes ever been on with Tifa, let alone the fact that he wanted the date and became her bodyguard for it. Risking his life; I don't get the logic of trying to down-play the romance of a date.

Of course he did, his guilt ate at him and he'd just lost a precious friend. Doesn't mean he was in love with her.

He didn't suffer in loneliness because of Zacks death; so until he does this for anyone else and has thus only done it for Aerith; its not something he'd only do for a friend. But has done for a woman he's been on dates with, broke his heart for, and has undying feelings for.

When someone dies, whether they are a lover a friend or a relative, hearts break. Doesn't mean he was in love with her.

I already showed you and told you; His heart broke JUST from her leaving his side. And then after it broke even further because of her death. Stop ignoring this, please.

Yeah, because of his uilt, because of his failure and that he'd failed to protect a friend.

He didn't close hismelf off because of Zack. ANd lets not forget that he is ignoring Tifa for Aerith. Putting her above Tifa by doing so; not even bothering to answer he calls or call her.

Why was that? Because he was nearly the cause of her death perhaps? Because he wasn't strong enough to move to save her and had to watch her die right in front of him.

Hrm? Where was this quote mentioned? Who or what has officially stated this, because the OFFICIAL reason is because she was separated from him, he feels she was taken from him, because she is gone, because he won't see her smile, laugh ever again. Stop making stuff up.

Its speculation at most and it has no place in a debate.

The point is the reason WHY he said he "wanted her forgiveness more than anything", is not mentioend by Cloud; but that doesn't give you the right to make stuff up and put words in CLoud mouth.

Point and case? He wants HER FORGIVENESS more than anything. End of story.

Yes she was, as was Zack doesn't mean he loved him .

Did Cloud say Zack was taken from him? Because its officially been stated that Cloud felt she was taken from him, I doubt its been said for Zack.

She watched Cloud's face which looked as if his heart was going to fall apart from the sadness of losing
her, the anger and hate he had for her being taken from him." ~ Maiden of The Planet

He lost a piece of himself when Zack died even more than Aerith. He was so badly damaged that he wasn't even himself anymore. He was still recovering when he lost Aerith. When someone close to you dies a piece of you dies with them, irespective of if you're in love with them or not.

Quote. Because until its officially been stated its just not viable as facts or canon. What? The reason Cloud wasn't "himself anymore" after Zack died is because Jenova, its been stated her virus drove him crazy -- not losing Zack.

Its been stated that losing something "dear" is Aerith as well as by Tifa that Cloud lost a piece of himself wit her. This is a canon fact, assuming the same has been done for Zack isn't canon like it is for Aerith and Cloud.


“What you’re looking for would be yours, but you’ll lose something very dear.”
As the storyline moves on to the event of Forgotten City, the “something very dear” can be read as losing Aerith -- DISMANTLED


27. In Gast's home, Tifa said Cloud was even more reticent after Aerith's death. She failed finding suitable words to console him, because "he didn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of him also seemed lost." She kept saying that she'd never forgive Hojo. -- DISMANTLED, Tifa's point of view

In the moment she died it didn't matter, he was grieving and torn apart by what he'd done and how he'd failed her.

Has Cloud ever said this about anyone else? No, he thought Tifa was dying in Nibelheim, and he didn't say it about her? How strange that he'd supposedly say and do it about anyone of his friends but never did.

When you loose someone you love, thinking clearly is not something you can do. When was this though?

In FFVII, he says "What are WE supposed to do" referring to he and Aerith and then in Dismantled he asks what he's supposed to do as well. I am unsure whether its during her death or close to it, but he does indeed say it.

Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing. Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain? My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!


What am I supposed to do about this anger, it's like endlessly boiling and burning up my body. ~ Cloud's monologue, Death scene, FFVII Dismantled

Seemed to be....something...these words hardly indicate something solid, a real love or a real relationship. More likely they hint at what might have ben had she lived.

They went on dates, what else could be between them? Kindof ridiculous to suggest something like that, especially in the English language; "Seems to be" means "Appears to be" and "looks like". The something being dates, and dates being a romance thing.

Built it? No, they were building it, they were growing close but never had the time to finish building anything. My best friend and I have a two person world whenever we're together, we certainly are not in love.

Then I suppose Tifa is "crazy" to be jealous of it? No, she loves Cloud being jealous of such things only reaffirms that it is indeed something of romance, especially when Tifa who has liked him for awhile or some such thing is jealous of it.

Tifa is a smart woman, I can't imagine her being jealous over Cloud simply having another friends.

He thinks this because he met him outside Aerith's church where he was thinking of Aerith. Doesn't mean he loved her, why would it? Merlene was given to him by Barret, he doesn't love Barret does he?

I know, and that doesn't really matter because all we know is Cloud feels Aerith has given him a child, I never said that but wives give husbands children, friends don't give friends children. Cloud has Aerith to thank for having his child. Marlene was given to Tifa, who is her mother-figure, Barret did not give Marlene to Cloud. Thats just makiing stuff up again.

Not to mention Tifa is jealous of this, jealous of Cloud believing the Child was given to him by Aerith, am I supposed to believe this is just Tifa being "crazy" over nothing? No, I refuse. Tifa is intelligent not to mention mature.

Yes he did, because he felt at peace there, where there were no other people, where he could feel less like he would hurt others like he'd hurt her. He called it his place because that's where he was living.

I know, the point is he left Tifa's place to live in Aeriths and ignored Tifa FOR Aerith.

As the rest of her friends do.

Stopped answering Tifa's calls and living with her and Marlene because of contracting Geostigma and because of the guilt his past failures made him suffer and fear loosing his new family.

Have you ever seen Advent Children Comnplete? Bceause if you had seen it you'd know, that Tifa says "Cloud? You never call!" at the same EXACT time that Cloud first finds Denzel. Cloud wasn't calling Tifa LONG before he even got Geostigma. Why do you keep ignoring this.

It's your opinion that all the things in the game equate to him being in love with her though. That's your interpretation, your speculation.

Nope, now you're putting words in MY mouth. Because he's never done these things for anyone else, is why I say he loves her, not because those things equate to love, but they pretty much do equate to love. Thats plain and simple.

“Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off. ” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.


I never watered down his guilt, I don't know why you ever thought I did. What I said was that the reason why he thinks of Aerith a lot and suffers so much more than everyone else over her death is because not only did he loose an important friend, but also because of his horrible guilt.

No, you said it was because he nearly did it himself. you also continuously brought it up, over and over again. I know Cloud is guilty but thats not all his bond with Aerith is, let alone what his undying feelings are. For tha last time, I KNOW Cloud is guilty but he got forgiveness and now he has an undying feeling for her.

“With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward. ” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.

I'm not saying that this proves he and Tifa are in love, but this is one of the reasons why I believe they are almost in a relationship and that the only thing holding them back was his guilt and suffering over past faults. You provided quotes that would hold importance to a Clerith fan but that didn't prove anything towards it and I have provided quotes the same for Cloti. The truth is there are no quotes for Cloti or Clerith that will prove one over the other, because that's not the way it's meant to be; we're meant to make the decision ourselves.

The only thing "holding them back" is Cloud leaves her to live in Aeriths Church, he doesn't call her and doesn't even answer HER calls, believes Aerith brought him a child and not to mention he feels at peace with Aerith but not with Tifa -- why is it someone supposedly "he loves" can't do this for him but another woman can?

Read my entired posts again; Cloud has done things for Aerith that he's never done for anyone else. Like you claimed he would but never has.

What kind of family figure would you say Tifa is to him then? A Sister? Someone who he used to have a crush on he now thinks of as a sister? If he just thought of her as his friend he wouldn't refer to her as his family, family and friends are not the same thing.

“Even after rediscovering his true self and beginning a new life, he is bound by a sense of guilt and mostly keeps the same sullen expression.” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania.

In Final Fantasy VII, Quistis thought she loved Squall and realizes she just felt like a sister to him; its not as crazy as you'd like to believe, it can and HAS happened -- especially in Final Fantasy games.

Tifa calls all her friends a "Family of Friends", you can be friends and be Family as well. Its not impossible and its certainly not exclusively romantic.

Again, this supports my opinion that Cloud's thoughts of Aerith and his inability to move on from her death are because of his guilt, not because he's in love with her.

“Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.” -- Cloud's Character Profile in the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Anniversary Ultimania. [/quote]

He DOES move on from the guilt, though. Rememebr at after he talsk to Vincent and releaves himself of the guilt saying "He feels lighter" now, because he's forgiven his sins; so no his feelings aren't guilt -- and his undying feeling is especially NOT guilt. Its ridiculous.

Cloud didn't just up and leave his family who he was so happy with, he left because of fear of loosing them, he contracted Geostigma which he knew would kill him and he didn't want to hurt the ones he loves. He wanted to protect them, but didn't know how, he left powerless and his past failures only add to this. You make it sound as though he never spent any time with Tifa at all.

For the last time, Cloud refers to Aeriths Church as "His Place" and lives there LONG BEFORE he contracts Geostigma, he only got Geostigma AFTER her found and brough Denzel home, and Denzel calls Tifa from CLOUDS phone when Cloud finds him at the Church -- BEFORE HE is brought to 7th Heaven and Tifa said "Cloud?! You never call" -- please watch Advent Children Complete and you will see where you are wrong.

He simply left because of Aerith.

Cloud finds Denzel before he gets Geostigma > He finds Denzel at Aeriths Church > Because he was living there > Denzel uses Clouds phone > hears Tifa say "Cloud? You never Call!" > Cloud wasn't calling her > Cloud brings him home > Cloud gets Geostigma > Cloud leaves again ready to die/depressed

 

[Sheechiibii]

@I s h t a r

I gave you a thanks but won't be replying to you again, I'm sorry. I read your post and you've just said exactly the same things as before, which I've already replied to. We're going around in circles. None of the stuff you've given me has shown me anything other than friendship between Cloud and Aerith. You sound increasingly hostile in your posts (I'm sure this isn't intentional) and I don't really like angry debates.

FFVII isn't one of my favourite games, I don't care much about the love Triangle stuff because as I've said before, I don't believe there is a canon couple and that's all there is too it. There's nothing to support either Cloti or Clerith, I've given as much evidance for Cloti as you have for Clerith, neither yours or mine shows that either of them are canon in any way apart from personal interpretation. Everything could be taken as romantic or friendship from both sides depending which you support.

This entire time you've been debating with me you keep ignoring the fact that I never once said Cloti was canon, yet everything I say you combat as if that's what I've said. I never did, I don't believe it's anyore canon than Clerith. I gave my opinions, my interpretation and speculation right from the start. You chose to debate with me knowing this but now keep saying I shouldn't be bringing those things into a discussion, that I should be using quotes and facts. well I've never debated about this before, I don't care enough to go trailing the internet for quotes. It baffles me that you'd start this debate with me when you didn't want to talk about personal interpretations when that's all my original post was about.

I'm sorry if you're not satisfied or are dissapointed with my responce, I appreciate that you've written such a large and detailed answer to me but we are now just going round in circles. Either you're missing my points or ignoring what I'm saying I don't know. I rather think that it's as I always said though - that all these 'facts' are ambiguous enough that depending which you support there's no real evidance either way, only hints to both because it was always meant to be the choice of the player.

This was an interesting debate though. It's given me a glimpse into this LTD and I seriously doubt I'll ever get into it again It's a bit too intense for someone who doesn't believe in it. I'm definitely well out of my league as far as this one was concerned as well, I suspect you've been arguing over this for years and have much information on it - I on the other hand have absolutely nothing and know nothing about where to even find information on it. I hope someone more knowledgeable picks up where I left off for you but I'm not going to continue as I feel it's a bit pointless what with me not thinking either of them are canon. Sorry, hope you're not dissapointed.

Xx..xX

 

[Saints&Storms]

@Sheechibii

I know you said you don't believe either is canon, I disagreed, that's all -- this is a debate thread, thats what its for -- I assumed you were debating as well since you kept posting back >.>

Sorry if you feel like I ignored you, but I got back to every part of your posts, I never once ignored anything in your posts Sheechibii, you have continuously ignored and straight up refused to acknowledge some things I have said -- such as when and how Cloud got Geostigma and how he was not calling Tifa or answering her calls LONG before he contracted the disease --as well as saying things were said by Nomura when they never were; such as telling me all the friends have an undying feeling for Aerith or that Clouds guilt for Aerith was because he nearly killed her himself when neither of those things were states, you insisted that Cloud would do things he's don't for Aetith for everyone else when he never has and never did. I was kind of sick of going around in circles so you can simply ignore what I had said but one post later. You said Cloud did and said all these things that never happened and you refused to acknowledge the existence of Advent Children Complete and Case of Tifa straight of proving what you quoted wrong.

The things is you haven't because Cloud doesn't have an undying feeling for Tifa. When Tifa was near death in Nibelheim he didn't say he's miss her laugh, smile or that the world meant nothing without her, he did say it when Zack died either. His heart didn't break for them as it did for Aerith simpmly leaving his side and then further at her death, he didn't go on dates with Zack or Tifa. It was never stated that he had something between he and Tifa as it was for Aerith and he. Neither of them are engraved in his heart. He never built a two person world with anyone. Aerith was never jealous of Tifa and Cloud. Cloud definitely doesn't think Tifa gave him a child nor has Barret given Marlene to Cloud. Cloud certainly does not ignore Aerith as he does Tifa and he certainly never wanted anything from Tifa more than anything. Until, Cloud does this for anyone else, like you think he would -- then you can't simply say he's do it for anyone.

That's all I wondered that if Cloud really WOULD do this for and with anyone why didn't he?

Sheechibii, you wouldn't even acknowledge that the 1Oth Ultimania Omega was referring to after Cloud found Denzel and left in depression. Because Case of Tifa and Advent Children Complete showed us pre-Geostigma Cloud NOT calling Tifa and not living with her, you ignored this as well as making things up and assuming/speculated why Cloud did certain things, putting your own opinion in instead. You have completely ignored everything I have posted since this started.

I started a debate because this is a debate thread, not an opinion thread; and I never posted "internet quotes" they are direct quotes from official movies, novella, and guidebooks that even you were using as proof, so downplaying them is sort of meaningless. To say I ignored YOU is really rude and wrong because I had to tell you that Case of Tifa tells us Cloud ignored Tifa's calls as well as Advent Children Complete; you tossed one single mesely quote that was referring to a COMPLETELY different time around like it meant something; when it didn't. All I asked was if CLOUD treats and has done things to Aerith that he'd do to anyone -- Why hasn't he? Because he wouldn't never has and never will. Let alone how you ignored my questions about why Tifa would get jealous over absolutely nothing.

Quite honestly being ignored in this thing is all too common; I should have known better than to waste my time but I needed gil on this forum from the posts I was making and hoped to get this thread alive again but it resulted the same as it always does. Pointless and ignored.

Just, whatever...I guess

 

[Sheechiibii]

@I s h t a r

I do have answers for you and would tell you them all but I don't want to continue the debate. I'm not copping out and I'm not giving up and saying I just don't have answers because I do, but they've already been said, it's all going around in circles. You're asking questions that have already been answered.

Like Nomura's quote, he said she lives on in the hearts of her friends - what is undying feeling if not feeling that lives forever? I already stated this in my last post but you either missed it or ignored it because it didn't fit with what you believe.

The quote from Cloud's character profile that I've showed you more than once already specifically states that Cloud left his family, which he lived with, when he contracted Geostigma because of the guilt and pain over his past failures.

Aerith is dead, he mourns her and feels guilty over the way she died, how could he possibly feel the same for the rest of his friends when none of them have died like that? It's an impossible question to answer, you have no way of knowing what Cloud would do if his other friends died like that but there's nothing to show that he wouldn't be just as guilty and hurt over it.

I have answers to all the other things you've asked as well but as with these I've already said it all before, read over my past posts and you'll see that. Every time you've brought something up I've answered it, I've never ignored any of your responses and because you asked I did find quotes to back up my opinions, all of which did a good job considering I had no idea where to get them from. Not that I really feel I should have had to since my entire argument stems from and is based on personal opinion, which you chose to debate with me on. It's not as if over 50% of what you write isn't your opinion too. Talking completely objectively nothing you've posted about Clerith has to be taken romanticaly, it's your opinion that it is.

I'm sorry if you're not satisfied this time but everything you've asked I've said before and if I continue answering again here I'll just keep this circle going. Thank you for the debate and I hope you'll understand that I'm not ignoring your points this time (nor have I ignored anything yet) it's just already been said. Maybe you keep getting this result because you refuse to listen to the answers your given and instead continue asking questions that have already been covered...

Xx..xX

 

[Saints&Storms]

@Sheechibii

You haven't answered them though, you say you have but you haven't, I don't know if you don't remember seeing them or not but you never answered them, I have just repeated them in my last post as well. You have made up reasons why Cloud did those things for Aerith; but those things you think happened are the reason are not and have never been mentioned by the official creators, you just made them up.

I didn't ignore it I saw it and I answered it; Like I said saying she lives on in their hearts is not the same as say Aerith is engraved in their hearts for eternity; because the quote never said she will live on in their hearts forever; It SIMPLY said "She lives on in their hearts" and that CLOUD has an UNDYING FEELING -- what you are doing is assuming they are the same thing, when they aren't. Especially since Nomura never was said the word "friends" and "undying feeling" together in a sentence -- let alone in that same quote.

I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007\

Not once like you say; does it mention her friends having an undying feelings for her; you made that up and completely butchered the quote.

The quote from Cloud's character profile that I've showed you more than once already specifically states that Cloud left his family, which he lived with, when he contracted Geostigma because of the guilt and pain over his past failures.

You aren't listening to me again; The time that I am talking about when I say Cloud wasn't calling Tifa or answering her calls and had lived in Aeriths church -- was BEFORE, way, way way BEFORE he got geostigma; as in in Case of Tifa, as in before they found Denzel.

The quote YOU are talking about is referencing when Cloud gives up because he has already contracted Geostigma [AFTER he found Denzel] and has become ready to die.

They are talking about two completely different time in the story. They are not talking abut the same time because when Tifa herself hexclaims that Cloud doesn't call; its BEFORE he has geostigma.

Aerith is dead, he mourns her and feels guilty over the way she died, how could he possibly feel the same for the rest of his friends when none of them have died like that? It's an impossible question to answer, you have no way of knowing what Cloud would do if his other friends died like that but there's nothing to show that he wouldn't be just as guilty and hurt over it.

Whoo, wow, Okay you know very well that I am talking about what he has done and said about Aerith; if you'd stop ignoring my posts and picking and choosing what to reply to and actually read it all, what I said was why did he do these things for Zack and Tifa?

Zack IS already dead and Cloud doesn't do these things for him nor has he done them, and 5 years ago in Nibelheim, he thought Tifa was dead by Sephiroths hands and he still didn't say the things he said about Aerith for these two.

You claim he would but he never has.

I have answers to all the other things you've asked as well but as with these I've already said it all before, read over my past posts and you'll see that. Every time you've brought something up I've answered it, I've never ignored any of your responses and because you asked I did find quotes to back up my opinions, all of which did a good job considering I had no idea where to get them from. Not that I really feel I should have had to since my entire argument stems from and is based on personal opinion, which you chose to debate with me on. It's not as if over 50% of what you write isn't your opinion too. Talking completely objectively nothing you've posted about Clerith has to be taken romanticaly, it's your opinion that it is.

You're doing it again right now; why didn't CLoud say the world's doesn't matter when Zack died? When he thought Tifa was dead in nibelheim? I have said this a couple times now, you still have not answered. Just like you haven't answered this;

"Cloud doesn't have an undying feeling for Tifa. When Tifa was near death in Nibelheim he didn't say he's miss her laugh, smile or that the world meant nothing without her, he did say it when Zack died either. His heart didn't break for them as it did for Aerith simply leaving his side and then further at her death, he didn't go on dates with Zack or Tifa. It was never stated that he had something between he and Tifa as it was for Aerith and he. Neither of them (Tifa, Zack) are engraved in his heart. He never built a two person world with anyone else. Aerith was never jealous of Tifa with Cloud. Cloud definitely doesn't think Tifa gave him a child nor has Barret given Marlene to Cloud. Cloud certainly does not ignore Aerith as he does Tifa and he certainly never wanted anything from Tifa more than anything, Cloud doesn't feel at peace in Tifa's bar. Until, Cloud does this for anyone else, like you think he would -- then you can't simply say he's do it for anyone."

You completely ignored this part of my post as you have been for awhile now. I am quite frankly fed up with you cherry picking my posts and then accusing me of ignoring you, when I haven't done that once. I have refuted everything you said with facts and you come back with speculations of "Cloud would do it for anyone" when he never has and never will; again Sheechibii I wanna ask -- if Cloud would do this for "anyone" why hasn't he?

So, dates aren't romantic now Sheechibii? Thats a little ridiculous, are you also saying Tifa was jealous over absolutely nothing and that she is simply crazy for being jealous? No, a woman who is in love knows why and when to be jealous of another woman, especiallly Tifa -- she's not dumb.

I'm sorry if you're not satisfied this time but everything you've asked I've said before and if I continue answering again here I'll just keep this circle going. Thank you for the debate and I hope you'll understand that I'm not ignoring your points this time (nor have I ignored anything yet) it's just already been said. Maybe you keep getting this result because you refuse to listen to the answers your given and instead continue asking questions that have already been covered...

You are straight up mistaken, because you have not answered the above part of my posts. You haven't and you claim you have, you just ignore it over and over again; and then ignore other parts of my posts like Cloud not calling Tifa; its not that I am not satisfied I am used to this happening, I am just insulted that you said I was ignoring your posts when you haven't even answered my questions let alone acknowledged how you were wrong in your other posts.

But whatever you have already said you're not interested in the LTD so why continue this; I don't think I'll be getting an answer anyway and this thread is honestly started to aggravate me

 

[Sheechiibii]

You are straight up mistaken, because you have not answered the above part of my posts. You haven't and you claim you have, you just ignore it over and over again; and then ignore other parts of my posts like Cloud not calling Tifa; its not that I am not satisfied I am used to this happening, I am just insulted that you said I was ignoring your posts when you haven't even answered my questions let alone acknowledged how you were wrong in your other posts.

But whatever you have already said you're not interested in the LTD so why continue this; I don't think I'll be getting an answer anyway and this thread is honestly started to aggravate me

You were the one who said I ignored you when you've done exactly the same thing. Just because you disagree with my answers (and the quotes I backed up with - funny how you put so much emphasis on one quote :Cloud's undying feelings: and yet will easily disregard any number of my quotes because they don't fit with your idea of what happened in AC :the quote about geostigma, the quote about Cloud's regret being why he left: when they are just as relevant) doesn't mean I didn't answer you. Saying I ignored you because I didn't answer some things you said in the latest response is ridiculous because I gave you an entire post saying that I wasn't ignoring you I just didn't want to continue the discussion. I thanked you the discussion and everything, I was trying specifically not to ignore you. Before that every single thing you said I quoted and answered in detail. Now you're even misquoting me - "Cloud would do it for anyone" I have never said that, stop putting words in my mouth and trying to twist things as if I have blatantly disregarded everything you said. If you must know the reason I keep responding is because the things you are saying are totally unjust and undeserved, our opinions differ but I have been trying to be nice to you about it and explain my reasoning and you're just refusing to look at anything that doesn't agree with your ideas and are becoming more and more hostile when that's exactly what I was trying to avoid and what I stopped the discussion for in the first place.

Xx..xX

 

[Saints&Storms]

@Sheechibii

Either you're missing my points or ignoring what I'm saying I don't know.

You accused me of ignoring you first. Then I face up to you and confronted how you have actually been ignoring me. What quotes have I disregarded point them out, because I have never done this; all I did was tell you, simply, that living on in someones heart and being engraved as well as having "feelings" as opposed to having "undying feelings" are all two completely different thing.

And here you are once again ignoring all the things Cloud has done solely and only to Aerith and no one else when you claimed to know he'd do it for anyone; when he never has and never will, even when faced with their deaths like he was with Aerith, he didn't do these things. You only think he would.

And for the last time, Case of Tifa proves Cloud was living in Aeriths Church long before contracting Geostigma, you DO know Cloud ONLY contracted Geostigma AFTER adopting Denzel right? And in Advent Children Complete Tifa said "Cloud? you never call!" BEFORE he brought Denzel home hernce BEFORE he got Geostigma. The quote you are talking about is after he adopts Denzel and got Geostigma.

You keep ignoring this ^^^ As well as this;

"Cloud doesn't have an undying feeling for Tifa. When Tifa was near death in Nibelheim he didn't say he's miss her laugh, smile or that the world meant nothing without her, he did say it when Zack died either. His heart didn't break for them as it did for Aerith simply leaving his side and then further at her death, he didn't go on dates with Zack or Tifa. It was never stated that he had something between he and Tifa as it was for Aerith and he. Neither of them (Tifa, Zack) are engraved in his heart. He never built a two person world with anyone else. Aerith was never jealous of Tifa with Cloud. Cloud definitely doesn't think Tifa gave him a child nor has Barret given Marlene to Cloud. Cloud certainly does not ignore Aerith as he does Tifa and he certainly never wanted anything from Tifa more than anything, Cloud doesn't feel at peace in Tifa's bar. Until, Cloud does this for anyone else, like you think he would -- then you can't simply say he's do it for anyone."

I was talking about before when you were still posting to me; that's what I was referring to as you ignoring me because I've said these things before in all my other posts, and you either looked over them or didn't see me say them or something.

And you did say those things could be said about a friend;

Yes, but the things he says could be said about a friend.

And you did say a heart can break over a friend;

Hearts shatter for lots of different reasons. Typically someone's death will always break hearts of their loved ones

Even though these things didn't happen for Cloud when Zack did die and when he thought Tifa died. Its only been said for Aerith.

Even though, Cloud didn't say this stuff about Zack or Tifa, when Zack died and when he thought Tifa was dead in Nibelheim. Cloud says he thought she was "a goner", but he never said the world didn't matter for either Tifa or Zack.


I'm not trying to be mean, honestly I am not; I just don't know how else to get people to pay attention to my posts other than the way I am doing it now. I'm not trying to be "unjust" but some parts of y posts weren't addressed and I asked them because I though we were debating but you have shown me now that you clearly aren't and I understand that now. I wouldn't have bothered asking them if I knew that. So, I am sorry if I came off brash or mean.

I don't understand why you got back to those parts of my post but no others, but if you don't want to debate, lets just stop then, I mean no use if you don't want to.

 

[C i d]

Let's keep this thread peaceful too. The point is to have fun, or is it?

 

[The Witch]

I was wondering about this quote;
it seems to prove that Cloud isn't in a relationship with Tifa in either VII or AC.

***
Tetsuya Nomura interview:
“What kind of question is that? I’ve never thought about it. Honestly, I don’t care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenarios that we don’t mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. FOR EXAMPLE, I WAS FREQUENTLY ASKED IF THERE HAD BEEN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TIFA AND CLOUD FOR TWO YEARS AFTER FFVII ENDED, BUT I DON’T HAVE ANY CLUE.” ~ Dorimaga magazine; interview with Nomura; November, 2005

***

I bring this up because I noticed T.V. tropes sick claim Cloud and Tifa are "together" for whatever bogus reasons they say (don't jump with joy, though because they used to say Katara and Zuko of A:tla was "canon" too, and look how that turned out ) Anyway, this quote I provided above clearly disproves that claim. If even the creator has no idea about it then how can fans claim that they truly are together? It's absurd.

 

[seddy-0]

him and tiffa weren't they had more a "best friend, we grew up together, but i am not seeing anyone and neither are you, so we will act like we are together at times but in reality, we aren't together at all" kinda thing. i think arieth did have a thing for cloud as he reminded her of zack, but it was a crush.. nothing more.. she felt comfortable around him and also felt a reason to help protect him as well. i think if there would be a continuation of FF VII. i feel we would eventually see cloud and tiffa together. and the birth of a next generation cloud or tiffa and thus would continue the storyline of saving midgar from creatures and possibly another sephiroth style being.


did i just drum up a storyline..?

 

[The Witch]

him and tiffa weren't they had more a "best friend, we grew up together, but i am not seeing anyone and neither are you, so we will act like we are together at times but in reality, we aren't together at all" kinda thing. i think arieth did have a thing for cloud as he reminded her of zack, but it was a crush.. nothing more.. she felt comfortable around him and also felt a reason to help protect him as well. i think if there would be a continuation of FF VII. i feel we would eventually see cloud and tiffa together. and the birth of a next generation cloud or tiffa and thus would continue the storyline of saving midgar from creatures and possibly another sephiroth style being.


did i just drum up a storyline..?

doubt it. SE doesn't make story's about that sort of thing.

Anyway, if you read the quote I just provided above you would see how the creator said that he has no idea whether or not Cloud and Tifa were together romantically after VII or during AC. If he doesn't know then how am I supposed to believe that they're together. They're just not together romantically and there's nothing show it either.

Anyway, no--Aerith loves Cloud and only Cloud. She and Nomura has said it more than once. In Dismantled Aerith says that she loves Cloud for Cloud much more than she ever loved Zack.

 

[EnigmaPhenomenon]

I was wondering about this quote;
it seems to prove that Cloud isn't in a relationship with Tifa in either VII or AC.

***
Tetsuya Nomura interview:
“What kind of question is that? I’ve never thought about it. Honestly, I don’t care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenarios that we don’t mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. FOR EXAMPLE, I WAS FREQUENTLY ASKED IF THERE HAD BEEN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TIFA AND CLOUD FOR TWO YEARS AFTER FFVII ENDED, BUT I DON’T HAVE ANY CLUE.” ~ Dorimaga magazine; interview with Nomura; November, 2005

***

I bring this up because I noticed T.V. tropes sick claim Cloud and Tifa are "together" for whatever bogus reasons they say (don't jump with joy, though because they used to say Katara and Zuko of A:tla was "canon" too, and look how that turned out ) Anyway, this quote I provided above clearly disproves that claim. If even the creator has no idea about it then how can fans claim that they truly are together? It's absurd.

the whole point to the LTD is to be up for interpretation. it bugs me at how many people can't understand that. i was on t.v. tropes about a month ago and saw it in the "Die for our ship" section, i find it ironic that they're being the same way, even to the put of disputing and banning anyone with actual counter-evidence like a direct Nomura quote. in all honesty, they claimed Zutara canon...? where did they get THOSE facts from?!?!?!

 

[The Witch]

the whole point to the LTD is to be up for interpretation. it bugs me at how many people can't understand that. i was on t.v. tropes about a month ago and saw it in the "Die for our ship" section, i find it ironic that they're being the same way, even to the put of disputing and banning anyone with actual counter-evidence like a direct Nomura quote. in all honesty, they claimed Zutara canon...? where did they get THOSE facts from?!?!?!

Their opinion. Just like their doing for Cloti now. Like you said, neither couple is canon--if only more people could understand that. :/