Feminism

[Davey Gaga]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've noticed a huge surge in the presence of feminism in my life in the last few years.

Unambiguously, feminism is the belief in equality between men and women; or, put differently, that women are currently not equal to men, and it's the school of thought that they should be. Inherently, I don't disagree with this principle and, if you do, you're probably not a feminist. By this definition, I consider myself to be a feminist.

However, hand-in-hand with the increased presence of feminism, I've grown intolerant towards a particular branch of feminism - "radical feminism" (or radfem, for short). Some don't believe it exists or take offense to the term - usually, in my eyes, a radfem, ironically. Some are so against radical feminism that they start groups dedicated to tearing it down, such as the following:

https://www.facebook.com/ExposingFeminism?fref=ts - "Exposing Feminism" Facebook page (take it with a pinch of salt: I genuinely thought it was satirical for months).

Equally, there's a lot of nonsense on that Facebook page, but I find myself agreeing with a lot of it, and I find myself being irritated by much of what feminism has become. While I inherently believe in equality of the sexes (who doesn't? Really?), many "campaigns" or opinion pieces spark controversy not over the thing they're campaigning against, but over their views on it. For example:

1) Miley Cyrus feat. Robin Thicke at the 2013 MTV VMAs was not only sexist but racist: http://groupthink.jezebel.com/solidarity-is-for-miley-cyrus-1203666732
- for me, this is the epitomy of nonsense. I find it more racist that the author picked up on the fact that the woman involved was black, whereas everyone else saw "a person", not "a black person".

2) Making everything into a reason to be angry. This one is probably the most common. "Men aren't ever disadvantaged", "stop telling me..." and "you want a medal for being nice?" are just some of them: http://jaythenerdkid.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/ten-things-male-feminists-need-to-stop-saying/

3) Disagreeing with anything a woman says means you're not a feminist, and that a man's place in feminism is to shut up and listen to women: http://feministcurrent.com/7798/the-trouble-with-male-allies/

These are just some things I've been enraged about in recent months.

Whether it's an image comparing a kitchen fire to a man's excuse for a woman "asking for it", a Veet commercial being slammed for suggesting body hair is unattractive on women, or more positive campaigns like "let's ban the term "bossy"", feminism has lost sight of equality of the sexes. The entire school of thought is no longer about setting right wrongs, it's about who can write the angriest opinion piece about why women are not treated the same as men.

I recently joined a "new" feminist society at my University, born out of the ashes of the traditional one, with the mantra that we were open to all discussion, and it was generally a more open society overall. This was true for a while, until things started to slip. On one occasion, it was suggested that all men, in order to become members of the student union, should be forced to attend "rape awareness training" - if they did not do this, they would not be granted access to the union. As a gay man, I asked if I, too, would be forced to go to this potential meeting, since I was very unlikely to rape a woman. The response I received was anger, hatred, dismissal, accusations of misogyny and victim-blaming, insensitivity to rape survivors and just all-round negativity. For the first time, they admitted that "rape isn't just a woman's issue", and said that I could rape another man. So, on top of being insensitive to rape survivors, I was called a rapist myself. Great.

I want to round off this post by saying that, while I have a lot of experience with nasty, negative, angry feminists, whom I believe have lost sight of the entire point of feminism, I also have experience with feminists who call out their peers and do not behave like this at all. Of course, they tend to be called "bad feminists" (what even?) as a result, but I believe it's women who stop and say "should we really pre-accuse all men of rape? Why are we doing this training?" who are the truly progressive thinkers.

I do not agree that men should shut up about feminism. I'll play devil's advocate for a moment, however: as a gay man, I don't want straight men dictating what I can and can't have in my life, and it's gay men who need to speak up for this. Having said that, we can't do anything without straight allies - and it's the same with feminism. Scream all you want, but if the patriarchy really is so oppressive, you're not going to break it without our help.

What are your thoughts on feminism as a whole, or any of the specific points I've raised?

 

[Ultimaja]

Feminism is a joke, and completely disregards and trivializes men and all his dealings.

People try to dress it up as being some benevolent steed for woman equality, but it's not. Not any longer anyway.
After women suffrage and the relevant wave which came after, further consolidating women on their founded liberties, it has become nothing more then a contemptible load of nonsense.

There is nothing I have ever seen in my entire life that has ever convinced me to believe that feminism still has some rightful place in society; that we should be discussing so called 'inequalities' and 'injustices' of women. It's a waste of moral aptitude; even many women themselves find it to be the same.

In fact, I really sometimes do not know whether to be frustrated or to outright roll on the floor laughing my ass off, because feminism is simply detatched from reality despite it's proud face and prancing attitude.

 

[Six]

This thread seems to ask for trouble...

Feminism and it's definition have never changed. People and their beliefs have attempted to change what it means, that's why so many people have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to saying: I'm a feminist!

Feminism -; the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. standing for / and / the belief that men and women are equal.

Does this mean women overpowering men? No.
Does this mean women degrading men? No.

A lot of women in fact, do this. They put down the opposite sex to show that they are superior, or that they are "equal". For those of my own sex, that do that, I'm really ashamed of. There's no equality in putting someone, anyone, down. Not the same sex, not the opposite sex. Yet all over the world you see women bashing each other, gossiping about each other, stabbing each other's back. Men do it too, but it seems they do so less.

Feminism and being a feminist means that you see both sexes as equal. None is better, none is worse. One should not get more respect, or be praised more, both should be.

People misusing the word, and then attacking people over it need to read up on what it means.

What Miley Cirus did, to me was degrading towards women. Women complain that they are objectified, yet people like her make it what it is and give the rest of the women that aren't like that a bad name. All their own, but she sets an example...

Now as far as black, white, yellow, and orange goes, I really don't care about skin colour.

 

[L]

it's because of tumblr feminists (or "radical" feminists) that i dont listen to people who call themselves feminists

i just kind of ignore them and hope that they go away

 

[Ultimaja]

Feminism and it's definition have never changed. People and their beliefs have attempted to change what it means, that's why so many people have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to saying: I'm a feminist!

Feminism -; the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. standing for / and / the belief that men and women are equal.

Racism has changed as well. It used to mean that different races had their unique traits and individual inclinations. Now it means racial prejudice or supremacy.
Hopefully you will see how that contrasts with what you just stated.

Feminism and being a feminist means that you see both sexes as equal. None is better, none is worse. One should not get more respect, or be praised more, both should be.

So if I refuse to be called a feminist, or speak against feminism, that means I believe otherwise?
Seems pretty selfish to me. Why should I be laboring under such a term if not to basically put women on a pedestal?

 

[Six]

No, but saying you're against something because some people give it a bad name, and it actually being something you're for is a bit silly. What I'm trying to say is, don't let the meaning of a word be degraded by people that have no clue what they're talking about.

I doubt you're against females, Ultimaja? So then you also are for equal rights, you can name it what you want, but the original meaning and name was Feminism. Unless you're against women and equal rights of course, in which case, I shall not speak to you! =P

Edit: "to put women on a pedestal" is taking the degraded form of that word, not the word with it's true meaning. Which means you're actually giving those who try and fuck up the word their way. I understand what you're trying to say, but the word is misused.

Also, labouring yourself with that word (within its true meaning) is actually a compliment to mankind, everyone respecting each other no matter what sex? Can't get any better than that. I'll proudly be a feminist and a meninist. Lets face it, if you pretty up the word to make it "I'm an equalist" everyone would go for that. Don't let the word alone misguide you.

 

[Ultimaja]

No, but saying you're against something because some people give it a bad name, and it actually being something you're for is a bit silly. What I'm trying to say is, don't let the meaning of a word be degraded by people that have no clue what they're talking about.

I doubt you're against females, Ultimaja? So then you also are for equal rights, you can name it what you want, but the original meaning and name was Feminism. Unless you're against women and equal rights of course, in which case, I shall not speak to you! =P

Edit: "to put women on a pedestal" is taking the degraded form of that word, not the word with it's true meaning. Which means you're actually giving those who try and fuck up the word their way. I understand what you're trying to say, but the word is misused.

Also, labouring yourself with that word (within its true meaning) is actually a compliment to mankind, everyone respecting each other no matter what sex? Can't get any better than that. I'll proudly be a feminist and a meninist. Lets face it, if you pretty up the word to make it "I'm an equalist" everyone would go for that. Don't let the word alone misguide you.

Women are already equal. They don't have any inequalities that aren't balanced out by the inequalities men have. It's called a yin yang of the sexes, something very different then all feminism collectively perpetuates.

I don't like feminism because it disregards the obstacles men face in which gives them certain perks in society. In fact, feminism has caused many more issues then it has solved in recent years.
Take for example the domestic court systems, in which men, the majority of the time, get the messy end of the stick. It happens everyday, and it's because men have been trivialized via the 'feminist movement'.

I'm very aware of feminism, what it was and what it is now, and know better then to think the formal definition hasn't somehow kept it in the ranks of something better then what it actually is.

 

[Six]

I disagree. Plenty of places women still get degraded simply because they're female. Just like in a lot of places men are given a bad name because they're male.

I don't like feminism because it disregards the obstacles men face in which gives them certain perks in society. In fact, feminism has caused many more issues then it has solved in recent years.

And I respect your opinion in that. Feminism doesn't do that though, women/men using the word but not it's true meaning create obstacles. Just like the misused form of "feminism" has caused more issues than it solved. You can't blame the word and it's original meaning on people's stupidity and their usage of said word.

Don't get me wrong, though, I understand where you are coming from in the way when the word "feminism" is misused. However, I am for and stick to the original form of it, which is an equal balance between sexes.

 

[CassinoChips]

The Miley Cyrus situation is a perfect example of why we need feminism. She's castigated and slut-shamed for portraying a sexualized image as a 21 (ish) year old single female. Robin Thicke catches virtually no heat, despite being 35 married. Ostensibly only because he's a man. Hypocrisy.

Senate Republicans denied a bill yesterday that would have allowed women to sue for equal pay for equal work in the US. Hypocrisy.

"Putting women on pedestal" is sexist by its nature. Women are humans, not objects to be worshiped. They are equal, not above. Putting them on a pedestal creates the Madonna-Whore comlex, expecting them to live up to some BS patriarchal view of purity and ignoring their sexuality.

 

[Ultimaja]

The Miley Cyrus situation is a perfect example of why we need feminism. She's castigated and slut-shamed for portraying a sexualized image as a 21 (ish) year old single female. Robin Thicke catches virtually no heat, despite being 35 married. Ostensibly only because he's a man. Hypocrisy.

Men are more modest then women. I mean, name a girl who hasn't walked around with their titties bursting out their shirt when spring and summer rolls around, or miniskirts being a norm for girls as young as 13 years old. How about I unzip my pants and let my balls show a little, and maybe I'll match them.
Are men making them do this? Do fathers want their daughters wearing that?

The answer to both is no- women perpetuate it all.

And nobody says anything about men who aren't modest because basically, men don't judge men and women obviously are inclined to such things. I would bring up Abrahamic religion and how close it all hits home in this regard, but I'll keep it simple- women are the ones to be criticized in this regard, so if that is synonymous with feminism, then why are you slanting against men?

Senate Republicans denied a bill yesterday that would have allowed women to sue for equal pay for equal work in the US. Hypocrisy.

Women push men out their house and home, take the children, and leave them bankrupt. Happens everyday. Where's the bill for that?

Like I said, feminism has trivialized men.

 

[Dionysos]

I guess I’m for humanism, mainly. I don’t care about a person’s gender, race, religion, personal beliefs, social background, etc. I’m for equality for all, as best as can be attained in a world where we all are born with different minds and souls regardless of these other outward distinctions. I’m against anger, and hating a particular group whether generally or for a particular thing. It's unhealthy.

I guess people could argue until the cows come home about the definition of the word feminism, and different people are inevitably going to be thinking about different things when reading the word. I guess the terminology itself is less important than the expressed concepts themselves are for me. So with that, I agree with the form of feminism which Kira describes; the true form. It's sad that there is a common negative form which is often associated with feminism.

I strongly disagree with the form which degrades and demonises men. I can’t see that as healthy at all anyway, even for the women, as to treat people as your enemies is not going to be conducive to attaining change which is positive for all. But perhaps I just think differently.

I saw a video clip last week which somebody posted up on Facebook where a lady feminist campaigner (and I think a well-meant one) was acting towards men in public in a manner which women had experienced from men. So she did things like telling a man to 'get his arse out', and staring at a man with a smile until he felt awkward, and then continuing to stare. There were many other scenarios. I initially felt a bit annoyed that these probably innocent random men should be the victims of a sort of potentially humiliating revenge (and therefore associated with men who actually carry out this behaviour), but I can understand the shock tactics to an extent; the attempt to make men feel guilty and think about how a woman might feel. But this can be preaching to the choir, as not all men are bad like that, so we shouldn’t all be made to feel like misogynistic pigs and potential rapists. I’m sure that most people today would be against that sort of thing. We aren’t all guilty for the crimes of other men, and yet there is often the assumption that all men to a greater or lesser extent should be ashamed. If a man yelled at a woman today to undress on the street he'd probably receive disapproving and worried looks from both women and men. I'd hope so anyway. Then again, all sorts of things happen on this planet which concern me.

So, basically, I’m against people discriminating against any human being, and I’m all for equality, etc. But I dislike anger and hatred and generalisations. These hinder equality, tolerance and, ultimately, peace.

However, far too many people are powered by fear, anger, hate, the dark-side, etc. Purge these negative emotions! Live free, and accept people as individuals with individual lives all living on the same floating rock circling around a ball of fire. When you are free from the yoke of hate, you can truly learn to get on with people, learn from them, be sometimes clearer when expressing your own opinions, and have more interesting conversations than simply yelling and spitting. Alas, Cloud Cuckoo Land dissolves again, and I am reminded that this is earth. Of course people will continue to hate each other. Doh!

 

[CassinoChips]

Men are more modest then women. I mean, name a girl who hasn't walked around with their titties bursting out their shirt when spring and summer rolls around, or miniskirts being a norm for girls as young as 13 years old. How about I unzip my pants and let my balls show a little, and maybe I'll match them.

Because that's the same thing.

Are men making them do this? Do fathers want their daughters wearing that?

Who cares what their father wants? How about they make the decision for themselves without asking for a man's permission?

And nobody says anything about men who aren't modest because basically, men don't judge men and women obviously are inclined to such things. I would bring up Abrahamic religion and how close it all hits home in this regard, but I'll keep it simple- women are the ones to be criticized in this regard, so if that is synonymous with feminism, then why are you slanting against men?

I have no idea what point you're attempting to make here.

Women push men out their house and home, take the children, and leave them bankrupt. Happens everyday. Where's the bill for that?

Lol. Show me one instance of this happening ever. Of course, I'll just counter with the laws that say it's impossible for a husband to rape his wife, so.

 

[Ultimaja]

Lol. Show me one instance of this happening ever.

Exhibit A.

Feminists are detached from reality.

feminism is simply detached from reality despite it's proud face and prancing attitude

 

[Paddy McGee]

Feminism... I think the word itself has been warped by women who've abused the tag, and now use it to pursue a female-superiority agenda. No doubt there are "good and bad" supporters for any sort of social movement, but generally the feminist movement gets stick because of their extremist "We hate anything that could be considered anything but supporting female agenda" outlook. All feminists are seen as this type, when they really aren't.

Looking at the extremist feminist outlook, I-as a support of EQUAL gender rights- should be embarrassed and sorry that I just happened to be born a man(Or, if we're going to count race in the mix, a WHITE man). I should shut up and let their opinions and voices be heard over mine. Basically, I've had my turn "being in power" and I should let them take a turn on the merry-go-round. That I've never experienced any sort of bias or problems because of my gender. In fact, I've benefited from being male since I was young.

Another point(Raised in one of above links) was the fact that a male-feminist must "prove" himself a real supporter of female rights. Obviously, you have some tools who go into that sort of movement expecting to get women to sleep with him because he's some sort of "white knight", but I don't think that a majority of the supporters are looking at it that way.

Hence, I generally don't call myself a feminist, or a feminist-ally. If I have to put any label on it, humanitarian is what I'd call my outlook on it.

But, the simple fact is that both men and women face problems with roles in the world in its current form. Women have had very blatant discrimination in the past, and are experiencing a slightly different version now.

It's a bit more sly, quieter... But you really can't deny that it still exists.

Pay gaps? I think they exist. PERHAPS, you could say it's down to specific people... But when you have to have a BILL brought to senate about equal payment, I think there's just something a little fishy there.

A women shouldn't be working at a certain age- why isn't she home with the kids?

Oh? You're a woman in what's considered a male profession? Obviously you're gay. But that's okay, because us guys find it HAWT!

38 and no kids? She's obviously frigid and a man-hater.

Don't wear this, don't wear that. Oh, you're ASKING FOR IT wearing that dress.


Yeah... You get the point( I hope).

Male discrimination was/is by no means as blatant, but it still exists. A man can be sexually harassed by a woman- but society tells him he's lucky for it. Boys/teens who're sexually abused by an older female force are supposed to be "proud" they were able to "pull" an older woman.

Of course, that leads to the idea of rape. Can a heterosexual rape happen, when a woman forces herself on a man? In my opinion, yes. Rape is much less about sexual desire, and more about control. You're taking this special, very private, part of the victim and invading it. Man or woman, rape does the same to both.

But, the gender role thrust upon a man says he should welcome-be happy- that a woman wants him so badly. That he should ALWAYS be searching for sex.

That's why-if you need to go through "rape awareness training" for any sort of group- I think members of any gender should go through it, just the same. It's more about your mindset rather than what you're into sexually or your gender.


I think that men and women both experience discrimination and bias- albeit, differently. I think it's too complex to say "John suffers more than Joan", or vice versa.

On that point, I don't think we'll ever see the gender dynamic 100% even. There'll always be differences between male and female(Kind of the point, I guess) and that will lead to a difference in roles in society- and a difference in reaction to said roles.

 

[CassinoChips]

Exhibit A.

Feminists are detached from reality.

So you can't actually provide an example of this happening? Great.

/deja vu'd

 

[Ultimaja]

So you can't actually provide an example of this happening? Great.

/deja vu'd

Well, the fact that these things take place in domestic courts where media don't dig around, and the fact that it happens so often..
I've even seen it happen, and have gone to jail where people have told me about their ex marriages and whatnot- alongside them being in jail for assault or some other thing, because brushing a shoulder makes you a wife beating criminal nowadays.

Thanks for proving my point that feminists are detached from reality.

 

[CassinoChips]

Well, the fact that these things take place in domestic courts where media don't dig around, and the fact that it happens so often..
I've even seen it happen, and have gone to jail where people have told me about their ex marriages and whatnot- alongside them being in jail for assault or some other thing, because brushing a shoulder makes you a wife beating criminal nowadays.

Because people in jail are famous for their honesty.

I'm sure those women were asking for it though.

 

[iSmiff]

I guess I’m for humanism, mainly. I don’t care about a person’s gender, race, religion, personal beliefs, social background, etc. I’m for equality for all, as best as can be attained in a world where we all are born with different minds and souls regardless of these other outward distinctions.

This. The word feminism even points to inequality. I'd give
more of my opinions if I wasn't at work. I do think a lot of issue with feminism is it's being misused by women trying to corrupt the original intention and swing the power balance from men, past equality, to women.

 

[Ultimaja]

Because people in jail are famous for their honesty.

I'm sure those women were asking for it though.

Lol, you really are just detached from the world aren't you? I mean, you have to be to be talking the way you are talking right now.

You've obviously never been to jail, never met anyone who has gone through such a thing, so you just assume it doesn't happen. It's those like yourself who are the problem; the cause of this plague that many men have and apparently will be put through until somebody does something about it.

 

[CassinoChips]

You've obviously never been to jail, never met anyone who has gone through such a thing, so you just assume it doesn't happen. It's those like yourself who are the problem; the cause of this plague that many men have and apparently will be put through until somebody does something about it.

You've obviously never been a woman, talking the way you are.