FFVII: LTD Debate Thread

[misbegotten_noob]

sorry folks but I have to go with Tifa in this one, the evidence of AC points to this (the pictures of them together, there personal conversations, etc, just like a couple would be) however Tifa does feel shut out because of cloud still holding feelings for Aerith, and still hasnt found the strength to forgive himself for her death (which he later does) Although he does love Tifa, he doesnt feel he can tell her about any of this as he doesnt feel she would understand (a thought often found in most men that are in uncertain situations) So in his dreams he is together with Aerith but in reality he is with Tifa.

According to the writers he shuts Tifa out because he is afraid to loose her and the children, a consequence of him failing people in the past, including Aeris. Not because he has feelings for someone else.

She's asking if Cloud loves her. That means she wants to know the answer to it.

Yes. And the only logical reason she would ask this at a low point in their relationship is to confirm something established before. It is a cliche question from one spouse to the other when things aren't well.

Using Occam's Razor here is like saying that Cloud hits Aeris in temple of the ancients because that's what he wants to do.

 

[llCHANCEll]

Yes. And the only logical reason she would ask this at a low point in their relationship is to confirm something established before. It is a cliche question from one spouse to the other when things aren't well

What was established before?

Using Occam's Razor here is like saying that Cloud hits Aeris in temple of the ancients because that's what he wants to do.

He wanted to go there to die I believe, and yes wanting to go there is Occam's Razor.

 

[misbegotten_noob]

What was established before?

Don't waste my time.

He wanted to go there to die I believe, and yes wanting to go there is Occam's Razor.

Is this in response to something I said? Because it makes no sense, what are you replying to?

 

[llCHANCEll]

Don't waste my time.

I'm really asking, what was established before? That was the whole basis of your reasoning, the so called motive behind Tifa's question I believe.

Is this in response to something I said? Because it makes no sense, what are you replying to?

I was confirming that Cloud wanting to go to the church is Occam's Razor. In short, I was agreeing with you.

"Using Occam's Razor here is like saying that Cloud hits Aeris in temple of the ancients because that's what he wants to do. "

 

[misbegotten_noob]

I'm really asking, what was established before? That was the whole basis of your reasoning, the so called motive behind Tifa's question I believe.

Do you know the meaning of the word 'confirmation'? She is looking to confirm their romantic relationship. Otherwise it makes no sense for her to ask this question in those circumstances.

I was confirming that Cloud wanting to go to the church is Occam's Razor. In short, I was agreeing with you.

"Using Occam's Razor here is like saying that Cloud hits Aeris in temple of the ancients because that's what he wants to do. "

Take a deep breath, now read my sentence again word by word. What does it say?

 

[Serene]

I really shouldn't be in jumping here, no time. But speaking of occam's razor, I really have to ask which is more plausible:

a) That Cloud and Tifa did confirm their mutual feelings under the HW (as stated in both Ulti), that they did move in together and start building a life together (as shown in CoT), and that when Cloud started to withdraw into himself (due to his guilt and failure complex, as SE has pointed out), Tifa started to worry and -- as is common when a partner withdraws -- starts to wonder if it's because his love is slipping away. Or,

b) Cloud and Tifa live together and care for children in a brother and sister type relationship, but Tifa wants more, so she decides to ask Cloud -- when he's withdrawing, when he's damn near his lowest, when she feels him slipping -- she picks this moment to bring up the love issue out of the blue. Not when he's happy and they're getting along well, but this moment.

The first example is damn near cliche because we see it in dramas all the time. The second would be flat out bad writing.

Just sayin'.

 

[llCHANCEll]

Do you know the meaning of the word 'confirmation'? She is looking to confirm their romantic relationship. Otherwise it makes no sense for her to ask this question in those circumstances.

Oh wow, they have a romantic relationship? Completely missed that part in the story. You mind proving it? That might actually end this decade old LTD.

Take a deep breath, now read my sentence again word by word. What does it say?

Oh my bad, was replaying AC.

Serene

I really shouldn't be in jumping here, no time. But speaking of occam's razor, I really have to ask which is more plausible:

a) That Cloud and Tifa did confirm their mutual feelings under the HW (as stated in both Ulti), that they did move in together and start building a life together (as shown in CoT), and that when Cloud started to withdraw into himself (due to his guilt and failure complex, as SE has pointed out), Tifa started to worry and -- as is common when a partner withdraws -- starts to wonder if it's because his love is slipping away. Or,

b) Cloud and Tifa live together and care for children in a brother and sister type relationship, but Tifa wants more, so she decides to ask Cloud -- when he's withdrawing, when he's damn near his lowest, when she feels him slipping -- she picks this moment to bring up the love issue out of the blue. Not when he's happy and they're getting along well, but this moment.

The first example is damn near cliche because we see it in dramas all the time. The second would be flat out bad writing.

Just sayin'.

Yep, everybody is a critic. That's why I don't really listen to em.

Just sayin....

 

[Bambi]

MIsbegotten_noob,some of your comments to CHANCE come across as quite patronising and rude, please be mindful that other members may not instantly grasp what you are trying to say. I know this is a debate but lets please be nice =]

I don't want a slanging match on my hands guys.

 

[Alantie]

Yes. And the only logical reason she would ask this at a low point in their relationship is to confirm something established before. It is a cliche question from one spouse to the other when things aren't well.

If you've been in a romantic relationship with a guy for several years- supposedly- and have to ask him if he loves you, clearly there's something wrong there. What does that say about a couple's communication, if one person isn't sure the other loves them after they've slept together and lived in the same place for several years? Either that the guy is a total dirtbag who's been taking advantace of the woman or the woman is completely dense.

Obviously, this isn't the case with Cloud and Tifa, unless you have some warped viewpoint of them. Cloud is not the type of person to take advantage of a woman like that, and Tifa is not dense.

She's not asking if he still loves her- she's asking if he loves her. There's a difference there. If she thought he didn't love her anymore, she'd be asking if he still loves her. But Tifa's word choice is if he loves her at all which suggests that Cloud has never said he loves her or hinted at it.

 

[Cloti]

you are putting your own interpratation into that question.
It bothers me how people think Cloud and Tifa relationship have to be perfect and pink to be a real couple, things aren't pink in the real world that's why I love the couple it's real.
About the question, I always saw it as a sign of Tifa insecurity(her character has always been shy and insecure) I know a lot of people who always ask their love ones if they love them, is natural, even if they repeat it to them 1000 times a day they still ask.
So I think that argument is completely irrelevant
Why instead of trying to disprove Cloti you prove Cleris?, in this thread not a single Cleris love interaction(besides some ambiguous ones) have been presented.

 

[Alantie]

No, it's more you putting in your own interpretations into things. You're assuming that they were in a romantic relationship, which has never expressely been confirmed. You are assuming they slept together, which again, has never been said. So stop assuming stuff like that and look at what's actually been said.

Tifa asks if Cloud loves her. She shouldn't have to ask if they were a couple at all. Just because they run into a rough patch doesn't mean Tifa's going to go emo and freak out thinking that Cloud doesn't love her just because they're struggling. That's ridiculous.

 

[Cloti]

Tifa was refered as "koibito" in the Reunion Files what does that mean you say?
"person involved in a MUTUAL romantic relationship" that is a confirmation for you.
They didn't slept together? then why in the interview in the 10th anniversary Ultimania Nomura and Nojima imply they did?.
that's what actually been said. No interprations there

 

[Serene]

Couples in relationships never have to ask each other if they love them? Are you serious? That's all lovely and idealistic, but it's far from realistic. Couples ask each other that all the time, especially if they hit a rough patch. I've done it myself. Cloud and Tifa are depicted as a realistic couple.

But enough of that. What does Cloud say to Aerith that shows us he loves her? Do we have any quotes? And no "he had no chance!" He had chances in AC, and every motivation to do so. After all, if someone you loved had died and you never told them, wouldn't that be the first thing out of your mouth if you were given a second chance to see them?

 

[The Illusive Man]

According to the writers he shuts Tifa out because he is afraid to loose her and the children, a consequence of him failing people in the past, including Aeris. Not because he has feelings for someone else.

Yes. And the only logical reason she would ask this at a low point in their relationship is to confirm something established before. It is a cliche question from one spouse to the other when things aren't well.

Using Occam's Razor here is like saying that Cloud hits Aeris in temple of the ancients because that's what he wants to do.

My point was only to point out but one of the reasons, yours is of course the main reason, relationships in there fullest form are complex and have a lot of ups and downs, trials and trivulations, I feel the writers have captured a "true" relationship with cloud and tifa.

The harboring of feelings is depicted in his dreams (if you watch after the end credits on AC with the bit in the field) you see that he still has a part of his heart that will always belong to aerith, but tifa is the person he loves in reality.

The writers in my honest opinion did a bang up job of capturing reality and human emotions, and that is why FF7 will always be a masterpiece

 

[llCHANCEll]

You guys need to understand that you have to prove they've been a couple in the first place before even spinning this intricate tale of em having difficulty in their romantic relationship.

This is the love triangle debate. The main contention here is who Cloud loves, apparrantly Tifa also wants to know the answer to that question. Why do you guys think this is irrelevent? Do you actually think this debate would exist if Cloud would have simply says "I love you" to one of em?

Tifa was refered as "koibito" in the Reunion Files what does that mean you say?

What does that mean to you?

"person involved in a MUTUAL romantic relationship" that is a confirmation for you.

That can mean many things

They didn't slept together? then why in the interview in the 10th anniversary Ultimania Nomura and Nojima imply they did?.

Keyword: Imply

Wheres that quote btw?

As for the reason why I'm Cleris? I like the couple, I don't go around saying that they have a romantic relationship. I just simply like the concept behind them.

 

[Alantie]

Tifa was refered as "koibito" in the Reunion Files what does that mean you say?

Says to me you need to reread that paragraph because it doesn't say that Tifa is Cloud's koibito. His name wasn't even mentioned in that sentence if you bothered to read the whole thing. It's talking about Tifa's personality traits, saying she's a sweetheart, not that she's Cloud's lover.

 

[Serene]

"Koibito" can't be translated that way, as a generic sweetheart. It has one specific meaning, that of someone's beloved. Furthermore, the Japanese used refers to roles rather than personality traits. So one of Tifa's roles is to be a koibito to someone, meaning she is loved romantically by someone. True, it doesn't specify Cloud, but who else is she in a relationship with if not the man she loves and lives with? And how does this mysterious other guy feel about the fact she's living with a man who isn't him? (Forgive me for being presumptuous; maybe it's a her. )

 

[Stella]

Wheres that quote btw?

Here you are-

Kitase: "The event on the airship the night before the final battle was done by Katou as well, wasn't it."

Nojima: "Oh, the bit with that risque/suggestive dialogue? I wasn't the one who wrote that, that was Katou too."

]- Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel", that line, right? That's a rather mature conversation for a FF game

Kitase: "Although I remember we had to tone down a version ([/font]表現[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'], [artistic] expression/representation) that was too strong

Nojima: "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was for Cloud to walk out of the chocobo stable in the airship, followed by Tifa leaving while she kept looking around, but Kitase rejected it. But I think perhaps no one expected that line to be so important (laughs)"

So Nojima himself confirmed that the scene was at first quite risque, and that they had to tone it down a bit. He didn't say that they scrapped the intended purpose of the scene, just that they made it not so "in your face" by having the screen fade to black instead of the chocobo stable idea. The final version of the scene still implies that something intimate happened between Cloud and Tifa.

You guys need to understand that you have to prove they've been a couple in the first place before even spinning this intricate tale of em having difficulty in their romantic relationship.

I find it quite funny that you are asking us to provide you with a quote that says "Tifa and Cloud are a couple" straight up when you can't even do the same in return to prove the Cloud and Aerith pairing. I too would like to see you provide us with some evidence that Cloud even had feelings for Aerith, because right now your whole side of the debate is based off of "what-ifs" where as ours is backed-up by quotes from the Ultimanias and the creators. That's still not enough for you all for some reason though. Here is what you requested though-

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud's childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim's burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

Realize their feelings for each other? Hmmm.. I wonder what that could mean

Just because they run into a rough patch doesn't mean Tifa's going to go emo and freak out thinking that Cloud doesn't love her just because they're struggling.

Have you ever been in a serious relationship before? I mean long-term, such as 2 or 3 years? Because everything isn't always "peachy", as seen by Cloud and Tifa. After making it through the events of FF7 together, Cloud tells Tifa he wants to start a life with her, they take in Marlene and Denzel, and so on. Everything is great for a long time and they're both very happy, but then Cloud (as he so often does) starts to think about the past, and he regrets not only the death of Aerith, but the death of Zack as well. On top of that, he finds out he has geostigma, and that combined with his feelings of angony and self-doubt cause him to leave Tifa and the kids. Now what is Tifa supposed to think? I mean she's been involved with this man for two years, and all of a sudden he's left? Her first thought is going to be that she did something wrong and that the reason he left is her. This, in turn, causes her to ask the question "Do you love me?" because Cloud had pulled completely away from her and withdrawn back into himself. It's a completely normal thing for someone in her position to do.

One last bit of evidence before I go to sleep-
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8792/tugetha11jg.png
Just another quote from Nojiima that supports the Cloti side once again. Also, despite the fact that I am a devout Cloti, I don't care if people just prefer the Cloud and Aerith pairing. I only get annoyed when people try to prove that it is canon with virtually no evidence to back up the claim.

 

[Aerina]

Kitase: The event of Highwind, before the decisive battle, is also made by Kato-san.

Nojima: Yeah, is that the scene with delicate/risque dialogue? It's written by Kato-san, not me.

Q: "It is not only language that can express feeling" is quite adult in FF7.

You'll notice that they stated Tifa's line was risque/delicate, not the actual scene itself. When playing through the game, it's obvious that Tifa has feelings for Cloud, and I thought that her lines in the HW scene made it pretty clear that she was basically stating her feelings to Cloud. Yet, what does Cloud reply? "...." To me, that dosn't seem to show that he repocriates Tifa's feelings, at all.


Nojima: The original idea is more extreme. A scenario is that Cloud walks out of the Chocobo Room in the Highwind first, then Tifa walks out next, inquiring the surroundings. But it is rejected by Kitase-san. But at that time, even if we used that dialogue in question, probably none of us had thought it would be a problem like that.

That scenario was rejected flat-out by Kitase, simple enough.
That statement also shows that, even if they had used that scenario, then they would never have "thought it would be a problem like that." It looks to me like he's saying they didn't expect the whole scene to be taken in such a manner as people suggest.

I find it quite funny that you are asking us to provide you with a quote that says "Tifa and Cloud are a couple" straight up when you can't even do the same in return to prove the Cloud and Aerith pairing. I too would like to see you provide us with some evidence that Cloud even had feelings for Aerith, because right now your whole side of the debate is based off of "what-ifs" where as ours is backed-up by quotes from the Ultimanias and the creators. That's still not enough for you all for some reason though.

But we HAVE gave you evidence, but in turn you simply shoot it down and claim it not to be enough, and in turn members like Ryu were rude and patronising to me and others, simply for the fact that they prefer their pairing over ours.

Like I said before, I doubt there will ever be a "right" pairing, it is up to us to decide. And yes, SE do consider the LT a big enough part of the 7 universe to keep an enigma. A while back, Nomura said something along the lines of "Cloud's dream is to meet Aerith again", but that statement was withdrawn because of the upset of Cloti fans. Notice how after all this time they STILL haven't given us a clear answer? If they "didn't care about it that much." then why haven't they just come out and confirmed who the "real" pairing is?
Scenes that some people consider romantic, arn't considered romantic by others and vice-versa. I just believe that SE have given more indication to Clerith than Cloti, such as "The Calling" music video of Cloud and Aerith at the end of AC, the fact that after all this time, we haven't seen Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship, to me it looks like a famial relationship, nothing more. I don't see anything in there that can be considered romantic, but like I said, it's down to interpretation. Which is all there is to be said, really.

 

[Cloti]

the "Calling" music video? what does that have of romantic.
Cloud drives PAST Aerith he is not going to meet her as many clerith like to believe.
In Reminiscence it show he stops to call Tifa, and tell her to close the shop to spend a day together.
Calling simbolizes Aerith watching over Cloud(and the rest of the party as well) as the guardian angel she is.

and what evidence please? nothing in the game suggest a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith, I played it more than ten times in two languages(english and spanish) and the only hints of romance are from the Cloti side.
or the line "your attitude is the only one that counts" doesn`t mean anything?, he would't say that to Aerith.
And I didn't know that tone down=rejection they kept the idea, otherwise the scene wouldn't be interpreted that way by many people(funnily enough the neutral ones)

you always say that Cloud thinks so much of Aerith, he only begins to feel GUILTY(that's the word, and not only for her, Zack also) much time later when ,as the creator stated, the happyness of the present is too much for Cloud, he doesn't feel he can protect his loved ones. A men whose lover passed away wouldn't be leading a happy life with another woman and raise children, Aerith is not something constatnt in Cloud mind.