FFVII: LTD Debate Thread

[misbegotten_noob]

Kitase: The event of Highwind, before the decisive battle, is also made by Kato-san.

Nojima: Yeah, is that the scene with delicate/risque dialogue? It's written by Kato-san, not me.

Q: "It is not only language that can express feeling" is quite adult in FF7.

You'll notice that they stated Tifa's line was risque/delicate, not the actual scene itself. When playing through the game, it's obvious that Tifa has feelings for Cloud, and I thought that her lines in the HW scene made it pretty clear that she was basically stating her feelings to Cloud. Yet, what does Cloud reply? "...." To me, that dosn't seem to show that he repocriates Tifa's feelings, at all.

Actually that's wrong. First, in the original Japanese game Cloud says, "Tifa..." Second, Ultimania states clearly that Cloud and Tifa opened up and revealed mutual feelings. As in Tifa's feelings = Cloud's feelings. So Tifa's suggestion that they show their feelings with no words, well, they they've done exactly that. They both resiprocate. There is really nothing more to discuss beyond that.

That scenario was rejected flat-out by Kitase, simple enough.
That statement also shows that, even if they had used that scenario, then they would never have "thought it would be a problem like that." It looks to me like he's saying they didn't expect the whole scene to be taken in such a manner as people suggest.

Well, not at all. They have rejected a version of the same event which was more extreme, meaning the original is still extreme. There is a reason why that original scene was written to begin with, because that's the answer, the intent of the story. They did not just suddenly do a 180 and changed the conclusion completely. That original scene gives away the conclusion to Cloud and Tifa's story arc in the game, another way to portray the same event. They did not change their whole story by softening one very explicit scene. As the Ultimania's say Cloud and Tifa still express matching feelings with no words -- yes that means physical affection.

 

[llCHANCEll]

Stella

So Nojima himself confirmed that the scene was at first quite risque, and that they had to tone it down a bit. He didn't say that they scrapped the intended purpose of the scene, just that they made it not so "in your face" by having the screen fade to black instead of the chocobo stable idea. The final version of the scene still implies that something intimate happened between Cloud and Tifa.

Interesting, you got implications.

[QUOTE]im·pli·ca·tion (ĭm'plĭ-kā'shən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. The act of implicating or the condition of being implicated.
2. The act of implying or the condition of being implied.
3. Something that is implied, especially:
   1. An indirect indication; a suggestion.
   2. An implied meaning; implicit significance.
   3. An inference. See Usage Note at infer.

[/quote]

I got a direct evidence of Tifa still wanting to know if Cloud loves her. You seriously want me to believe that they're a couple now over some implications? You want me to throw away direct evidence because of this?

I find it quite funny that you are asking us to provide you with a quote that says "Tifa and Cloud are a couple" straight up when you can't even do the same in return to prove the Cloud and Aerith pairing.

Most likely because I don't go around stating CXA is a couple when I know the story is open-ended.

I too would like to see you provide us with some evidence that Cloud even had feelings for Aerith, because right now your whole side of the debate is based off of "what-ifs" where as ours is backed-up by quotes from the Ultimanias and the creators. That's still not enough for you all for some reason though. Here is what you requested though-

Now this is what's truly funny in my opinion. This site:

clerith.com

Is also backed up by quotes from ultimania and the creators, but I'm pretty sure this site is nothing compare to the evidence you've been giving out since it's so much better because you know....Well yea, you gotta tell me why cus I really can't tell the difference between you and that site right now. I don't even think you're in the same level,especially when you gave out this so called "evidence".

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud's childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim's burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.
========

Realize their feelings for each other? Hmmm.. I wonder what that could mean

Your conclusion is as shaky as your premise(realizing their feelings? what feelings?). In fact, your conclusion is non-existant. What do you want me to say here exactly? It's your proof for Cloud and Tifa being a couple, aren't you suppose to explain that to me?

 

[Cloti]

haha the site you posted (clerith.com) is one of the most crappy sites I`ve seen on the web, it has no credibility at all, is known for twisting words and mistranlate.
Hace you played the game? it is evident that Tifa love Cloud, if the creators state that they MATCHED their feelings what could that mean? Tifa's feelings=Cloud's feelings
we know Tifa feelings so is evident.
It's funny how the clerith have changed their posture over time, first they swore Clerith was canon now they are defending the "up to the player" "open ended" posture.

 

[llCHANCEll]

haha the site you posted (clerith.com) is one of the most crappy sites I`ve seen on the web, it has no credibility at all, is known for twisting words and mistranlate.

I'm pretty sure you guys are way better than that site because?

Hace you played the game? it is evident that Tifa love Cloud, if the creators state that they MATCHED their feelings what could that mean? Tifa's feelings=Cloud's feelings

It also true that love can mean many things. From "familial" love and love that comes from a friend. Those feelings can match to Cloud since I'm pretty sure he'd feel the same way to her. What type of love are you talking about? You think that's the only possible interpretation? You do know that not everything is about the LTD right?

It's funny how the clerith have changed their posture over time, first they swore Clerith was canon now they are defending the "up to the player" "open ended" posture.

I also love the generalization on that statement of yours.

 

[Daenerys]

Again, guys. Artemicion has already warned you all about the snide remarks / comments. If I see another one, infractions / warnings will be handed out. This is your last verbal warning.

Thank you.

 

[der Astronom]

I don't even know why we care who the creators wanted Cloud to love, or who they wanted us to think he loves, but all I know is that they never exactly made that clear in the original game itself, and I guess they had to do it through Ultimania, which sadly, can't be read by people who can't read Japanese, unless you're so inclined to look at unofficial translations of it--and I really can't be bothered to look through it because I don't want a guide on the storyline of a video game to spoonfeed me the answers; if it's left ambiguous, that usually means the reader is allowed to interpret for themselves what it means. If you later come up with a guide and say it is not so, you should have just made it non-ambiguous to begin with.

If it had been just the original game itself, we'd be free to say who Cloud should be with and who he wouldn't, and no one can say who he must be with. But now because the creators apparently don't like that, we can't. If you want to, you'll have to discuss why you want Cloud to be with a particular person, or why he can't be with the other, and then concede, at the same time, that it's not what the creators wanted.

And no. I have not read either the Ultimania or Maiden of the Planet. I don't care to because I'm not interested enough about what the creators wanted to have happen in their games and stories. If they wanted to have those things happen in their games, and they want people to know that, they should have expressed it better. I play the games because they're fun. Whether or not the creators express what they want to and other people see it as well doesn't matter to me. I see what I see in a game because I have a different pair of lens than the creators do, and if they don't like that, then too bad.

 

[llCHANCEll]

I don't even know why we care who the creators wanted Cloud to love, or who they wanted us to think he loves, but all I know is that they never exactly made that clear in the original game itself, and I guess they had to do it through Ultimania, which sadly, can't be read by people who can't read Japanese, unless you're so inclined to look at unofficial translations of it--and I really can't be bothered to look through it because I don't want a guide on the storyline of a video game to spoonfeed me the answers; if it's left ambiguous, that usually means the reader is allowed to interpret for themselves what it means. If you later come up with a guide and say it is not so, you should have just made it non-ambiguous to begin with.

Just stick to the official translation. Much less complicated that way in my opinion....That's just me though.

 

[der Astronom]

Yes, but I can't even read it. Actually, a lot of people here can't read it because most of us can't read Japanese. That's my point.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Kitase: The event of Highwind, before the decisive battle, is also made by Kato-san.

Nojima: Yeah, is that the scene with delicate/risque dialogue? It's written by Kato-san, not me.

Q: "It is not only language that can express feeling" is quite adult in FF7.

You'll notice that they stated Tifa's line was risque/delicate, not the actual scene itself. When playing through the game, it's obvious that Tifa has feelings for Cloud, and I thought that her lines in the HW scene made it pretty clear that she was basically stating her feelings to Cloud. Yet, what does Cloud reply? "...." To me, that dosn't seem to show that he repocriates Tifa's feelings, at all.

On the other hand, we are told, by fiat, they they recognize mutual feelings in the lifestream, and then confirm them under the highwind.
And the Japanese scene ends with '.....Tifa'

Nojima: The original idea is more extreme. A scenario is that Cloud walks out of the Chocobo Room in the Highwind first, then Tifa walks out next, inquiring the surroundings. But it is rejected by Kitase-san. But at that time, even if we used that dialogue in question, probably none of us had thought it would be a problem like that.

That scenario was rejected flat-out by Kitase, simple enough.
That statement also shows that, even if they had used that scenario, then they would never have "thought it would be a problem like that." It looks to me like he's saying they didn't expect the whole scene to be taken in such a manner as people suggest.

No, he's saying that when they all made the scene, even with the risque dialogue and the morning after followup of the chocobo stable, that there would be a problem with kitase. Take the whole of the context in. This is where you and your side have your failings most often. You analyze outside of context, when context is one of the most important aspects.

But we HAVE gave you evidence, but in turn you simply shoot it down and claim it not to be enough, and in turn members like Ryu were rude and patronising to me and others, simply for the fact that they prefer their pairing over ours.

I'm sorry, I was what? I disagree with you, and I certainly have no qualms about telling you so, or correcting you when you are wrong, but that is hardly rude or patronizing. I also have no issue with you preferring the C/A pairing. I have issue with you trying to declare it part of the continuity.

Like I said before, I doubt there will ever be a "right" pairing, it is up to us to decide. And yes, SE do consider the LT a big enough part of the 7 universe to keep an enigma. A while back, Nomura said something along the lines of "Cloud's dream is to meet Aerith again", but that statement was withdrawn because of the upset of Cloti fans.

Got a source on that being said or that happening? Because I suspect it's a misquote on the former, and I do not recall the second happening.

Notice how after all this time they STILL haven't given us a clear answer? If they "didn't care about it that much." then why haven't they just come out and confirmed who the "real" pairing is?

Having a man move in with a woman and start a family with her, while calling her a lover in a mutual relationship, and saying that where he belongs is living with her seems like a confirmation to me. I suspect you would in any other scenario as well. Why not here?

Scenes that some people consider romantic, arn't considered romantic by others and vice-versa. I just believe that SE have given more indication to Clerith than Cloti, such as "The Calling" music video of Cloud and Aerith at the end of AC,

A song that has no romantic undertones, is critical of them, and visuals that show Cloud driving past an Aerith he doesn't even notice is C/A?

the fact that after all this time, we haven't seen Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship, to me it looks like a famial relationship, nothing more. I don't see anything in there that can be considered romantic, but like I said, it's down to interpretation. Which is all there is to be said, really.

Well, if you apply the standard 'we haven't seen them in a romantic relationship' (which I disagree with, but will go with pro tem), then you have shot yourselves down as well. Any standard you apply evenly to both the C/A side and C/T side comes out worse for C/A.

Now then, the short list. Entries in order of relevant chronology.
Cloud falls in love with Tifa before leaving Nibleheim for SOLDIER- CC Ultimania. Plainly stated.
Cloud was seeking to impress Tifa when he aimed for SOLDIER- his own words, lifestream sequence.
Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for each other in the lifestream- 10TH An. Ulti.
They affirm these feelings under the highwind- Same as above.
Said scene contains mature dialogue and is considered risque by the creators, and was created by a part of the team with a lot of movie experience- 10th Aniv preface interview. P12, IIRC.
Immediately AFTER FF7, Cloud asks Tifa to be with him from that day on, and believes that he can succeed in life where he had previously failed because he will have Tifa with him- Case of Tifa.
Barret and Cid both consider C and T a couple- Case of Barrett.
The happier Cloud gets, the lonelier he becomes- AC Prologue book.
After contracting Geostigma, Cloud leaves to protect his loved ones- AC Prologue.
Tifa is a Koibito: a lover in a relationship- Reunion Files.
Cloud and Tifa belong together- Nojima, Reunion Files.
Cloud spends less than a week total at Aerith's church- 10th Aniv.
Cloud is running from comfort/ something warm- 10TH An, interviews with Nomura re: KH and AC.
Cloud lives with Tifa until just before AC and resumes living with her immediately thereafter, up through and after DoC.

There are a few others elsewhere, but I'll let that be it for now. What can you offer in return?

 

[Serene]

Got a source on that being said or that happening? Because I suspect it's a misquote on the former, and I do not recall the second happening.

I'll take this one. I believe she's referring to an early magazine, released way before the release of AC, that had something like, "meeting her again, that is my dream" over the publicity photo of Cloud and Aerith standing back to back. As someone who used to do this kind of work, let me explain. Film production companies, or in this case SE, send out sets of publicity photos to multiple media outlets to drum up publicity. It's left to designers and copy writers to fill out the space around the photos with verbage. So that quote was the filler of a copy writer, no doubt giving his/her own slant to the photos. If a magazine does indeed have a quote from someone on the creative team, they attribute it as such and will undoubtedly try to flaunt that they have an "interview". After all, everyone receives publicity photos, but an interview with actual quotes is a real "get."

I'm a little amused that people believe text hovering around photos or in relationship charts in fan magazines comes directly from FF7's creative team. Those guys are lucky if they're marginally aware publicity materials have been sent to the media. The marketing department is in charge of that, not the creative team.


But back on topic. I don't have any problems with CxA shippers preferring that pairing. But if they're going to enter a debate over what's canon, I wish they'd apply standards fairly.

For example, why is "But I'm ... we're here for you" romantic, but "If you forget the way you were then, I'll be there to remind you" (said with a blush) not romantic? (Working from memory on both those quotes, BTW.) Why is Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard romantic, but Cloud promising to be Tifa's hero and carrying that promise with him always not romantic? See what I'm getting at?

 

[misbegotten_noob]

"She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC."

/thread

PS.Yeah, I know what's coming, "But it doesn't say what feelingz!1!!" As if anyone who uses such a simple statement with "boy, girl, feelings for each other, live together," would mean some outlandish 'other' thing than the blatantly obvious.

 

[stratus_strife]

Hey, im new on here so thought id say hi.

I think cloud loved them both, he was fallin for them both at the same time. You can tell by the lengths he goes to to save tifa from the don.(dressin ike a girl) and by his reaction when seph kills Aeris.

I think he sorta got involved with aeris cos she intrigued him, Cloud being so quiet and reserved and her being so dreamy and out there. I think he did get sub'd by aeris for zack and i think after she died he got close to tifa and his true feelings were allowed to show.

Tifa was jealous, but so was aeris if ya think about it. Tifa sort of watched from afar, leaving cloud and aeris to get close, might of been different if she tried to get his attention tho.

Gotta say this entire conversation is a real compliment to the writers, all these years ppl still talkin about that love triangle. Fair play ppl. Tlk soon

 

[Alantie]

the "Calling" music video? what does that have of romantic.
Cloud drives PAST Aerith he is not going to meet her as many clerith like to believe.
In Reminiscence it show he stops to call Tifa, and tell her to close the shop to spend a day together.
Calling simbolizes Aerith watching over Cloud(and the rest of the party as well) as the guardian angel she is.

If you watch Calling again, note that Cloud is driving through the flowerfield, and at the end, the camera stops following him while he's still in it. It doesn't show him driving past her, or past the flowerfield, so I don't know how you can say he drives past it.

If Calling were to symbolize that Aerith was watching over the entire party, they would have been included in the video too. Instead the emphasis is on the two characters that are shown in the video, not on people who aren't there.

Also, take a look at the lyrics:

I wonder how many sleepless nights you have to count, before you find your way
After how many lives are lost, will the strife end?
Clowns that cannot be saved, just tumbling atop of history
Like someone said one day before
The answer is in the wind.

How many times does your face have to be hit as you turned it away, before you stop pretending that you don't notice?
How much pain must you endure, before you smile freely?
If you're going to accept defeat again, still bound by rusted chains
Like someone said one day before
The answer is in the wind.

With your voice strained and your hands gripping tightly
Waiting for the time when your destiny is sure to change
With the faint power of a tiny love
Always waiting for your sadness to be embraced

Pitiful fraids working their puzzle of lies
Foolish romanticists who gracefully entertain with clumsiness
The premonition of the coming of the day when history will tell you nothing
Like someone said one day before
The answer is in the wind.

With your voice strained and your hands gripping tightly
Waiting for the time when your destiny is sure to change
With the faint power of a tiny love
Always waiting for your sadness to be embraced.

Tetsuya Nomura said this about Calling:

"In the scene where it plays I'm trying to portray the message of the film and Cloud's feelings through silence and song. I think people will feel the persuasive power of the song when they view the scene."

The song is clearly supposed to portray how Cloud feels- the lyrics speak of pain, hardship, love, hope, and sorrow. It's not about the other characters- it's about Cloud and his feelings. And, ironically enough, it's Aerith that's shown in this video about Cloud's feelings. Why not show Tifa- since, according to some of you, they have a real relationship filled with all the things talked about in the song?

 

[Cloti]

watch reminiscence as I said, there it shows that Cloud drive past the flowerfield.
and I fail to see how a song(very open to interpretation) could weight more than all the facts that the other members have presented in Cloti favor, the evidence is overwhelmingly one sided.

 

[Demaris]

I didn't see him drive past, I saw the camera stop following him....but the other thing I didn't see was Cloud and Tifa or Zack and Aerith hooking up all romantic lolz and no one can say for sure they did. I don't know why they would go and show something like "Calling" featuring only Cloud and Aerith while playing a love song when the ending was supposed to have implied CxT and ZxA. I suppose we are back to interpretations again as none have been shown in a romantic sense after AC and I don't get the confirmation anywhere that a romantic relationship is Cloud's prerogative....unless there is a hidden scene somewhere or a quote post AC or pre DOC timeline that I have not seen.

 

[llCHANCEll]

PS.Yeah, I know what's coming, "But it doesn't say what feelingz!1!!" As if anyone who uses such a simple statement with "boy, girl, feelings for each other, live together," would mean some outlandish 'other' thing than the blatantly obvious.

Maybe you should tell the "blatantly obvious" thing to Tifa?

Do you love me? --- Tifa to Cloud

 

[Alantie]

watch reminiscence as I said, there it shows that Cloud drive past the flowerfield.
and I fail to see how a song(very open to interpretation) could weight more than all the facts that the other members have presented in Cloti favor, the evidence is overwhelmingly one sided.

Reminiscence shows a few scenes of Cloud's journey in Calling. If you pay attention to the scenes in Reminiscence, the one with the call to Tifa shows the flowerfield clearly and there is no motion or sound of the motorcycle, showing that Cloud has stopped. In addition to that, Cloud's desk shown after Calling has photos of the flowerfield, and the same yellow flowers from there.

The song is meant to be about Cloud's feelings. That isn't up to interpretation. That is what Nomura himself has said about it. As for the song talking about pain, love, sadness, and loss, you just have to read the lyrics to get that much.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Um, I hate to burst bubbles, but the call to Tifa scene shows a few scattered flowers and scrublands. It also shows that he stopped to call Tifa, and maybe pick some flowers (he also could have picked them when he stopped to talk with Barrett, where a lot more flowers abounded). The credits also show that Cloud drives home to be with his family, as reminiscence confirms. Anyone speculating that something else happened in between Cloud's call and his driving home suffers the burden of proof.
Or is just plain insane in the case of certain fanfic writers.

As for the lyrics to the 20 yr old song reflecting Cloud's emotions, the song is critical of the people with the tiny love always waiting. The point of the song is that you need to take action, and that waiting, gnashing your teeth and just trying to hold on is insufficient. Has been since it was written in the 80s.
Even if the point of the song is the love (despite, you know, the point being people who wait for things to change never getting it and continuing to suffer), what makes you conclude that the tiny love refers to Aerith and not Tifa, given the rest of the circumstances? Because she also appears in the credits, looking on sadly?

As for 'Who says calling shows Aerith watching over the entire party', I never said it did, but in all likelihood, that is what the flowers placed before the photo of family and friends is supposed to represent. That Aerith is still a part of all of them.

And chance- you act as if a woman can never ask her man if she loves her, that she can never simply want confirmation. This is not the case. My mother still asks this of my father every so often. Women do not ask this sort of question if they never had reason to believe they were loved in the first place.

And does no one wish to address the short list? None of that is open to interpretation either.

 

[Serene]

They didn't address my point either, Ryushikaze. I guess they'd rather discuss how their interpretation of the credits directly conflicts with the official script, presumably because they know the characters better than Nojima. Disappointing, really.

But I'll give it another try: Why is "But I'm ... we're here for you" romantic, but "If you forget the way you were then, I'll be here to remind you" (said with a blush) not romantic?

 

[llCHANCEll]

Oh so we're talking about unaddressed points now? Alrite, just a suggestion here, before jumping on another argument, make sure to try to at least end the ones that came before and not leave the person you're arguing against wondering if you addressed his own points. Most of you guys have done that to me. Besides, I'm not the type of person to change subject simply because you guys feel like it. In short, it'd be really nice to at least finish what you started before going on another subject. Thank you.



Just a suggestion.

Ryushikaze

you act as if a woman can never ask her man if she loves her, that she can never simply want confirmation.

Do you mean "confirmation" or "re-confirmation"?

This is not the case. My mother still asks this of my father every so often. Women do not ask this sort of question if they never had reason to believe they were loved in the first place.

Interesting how you use one's personal experience in an argument. Don't you think that's a bit flawed?

I don't even know what to say about your interesting conclusion on women in general.

And does no one wish to address the short list? None of that is open to interpretation either.

If I'm included to that remark of yours, you might wanna at least try to finish the last argument we were in a couple pages ago. You kinda left me hanging there. I was asking where in the story did you get the idea that Tifa is insecure and how do you even know what she was feeling at that time?

BTW, is this another one of your conclusion on women as well? Or are you just referring to Tifa specifically?

Serene

They didn't address my point either, Ryushikaze. I guess they'd rather discuss how their interpretation of the credits directly conflicts with the official script, presumably because they know the characters better than Nojima. Disappointing, really.

But I'll give it another try: Why is "But I'm ... we're here for you" romantic, but "If you forget the way you were then, I'll be here to remind you" (said with a blush) not romantic?

It might help if you direct that to a specific person. It's a lil bit "generalized" imo. Heck, what's stopping a random "cleris" from saying pretty much the same thing? Only in reverse.

Like this for example:

Why is "If you forget the way you were then, I'll be here to remind you" (said with a blush), considered romantic but "But I'm ... we're here for you" not romantic?--- A cleris to some random cloti in general

Just sayin'.....