Final Fantasy has gone down-hill

[FinalFantasyVIICC]

Now I know a lot of you read the title of this thread and completely disagreed with it the second you read ''down-hill'' but I honestly think that after Final Fantasy X, Square Enix tarnished the Final Fantasy name with awful games such as Final Fantasy XIII. I myself have played nearly all of the Final Fantasy from I to X and I consider myself to be a huge fan of the game series, however I was extremely let down after playing XIII.

Maybe its just me, what do you guys think?

 

[Razberry Knight]

Your not alone. I do believe the damage is repair able if SQUARE ENIX FORGET ABOUT XIII. We keep getting games, and it looks like they made xiii-2 to use resources they didnt use in the original. We keep getting 13, 13, 13..and we're not getting type-0 and they decided to move versus 13 into ps4 and rename it 15.



Ff14 and 15 look great. Better than great, they look amazing, and so many mechanics confirmed for it are great.
And we got the 3rd Birthday despite no one wanting one. We've been getting horrible games rather than working on games we do want.

 

[greenyxi]

I couldn't agree more. Square just don't seem to have any idea what to do with their main franchise anymore (or haven't for about a decade). Trying new things is what Square have always been good at...but they used to do it well.

I'm just putting all my hope in FF15. If that's a flop, then I think we know that FF is pretty much gone. At least for me. I'll still play the old ones like mad though

 

[Linnaete]

Japan as a whole has tripped, stumbled and self-catapulted itself a mile down a steep hill this generation. With what has happened to the Resident Evil franchise this generation, be thankful that Square-Enix has yet to produce something as mindlessly focus-tested and as much of a chimeric factory food-blended product that tries to appeal to everyone, but satisfying virtually no one. Well, FFXIII-2 comes close to it, but not quite.

I think it has only solidly gone "downhill" for a couple of potential reasons. One, if you're a fan of the traditional ATB/FFX turn-based battle systems and you were never a fan of the directions that FFXII and FFXIII took. With a game that was originally announced as a spinoff action-RPG title, but recently promoted to a full game, I suppose it's understandable that you're not too optimistic of the franchise's near-future, given the industry trends sharply away from turn-based to action combat systems this generation.

Second, and I think this one applies to me more - and perhaps a lot of people on here today - we've simply grown out of Final Fantasy. I have fond memories of the older games largely because I was part of that age demographic that would be most enchanted by the franchise's storytelling in a child-like way. Maybe I'm just cynical as ever, but I'm not yet convinced that a future installment can instil in me a similar effect to when I played through the earlier games for the first time. I'm far too nitpicky nowadays, that I find myself quicker to rip apart a story for its lack of sense and stupid ideas than I am at praising it.

I suppose it's also because I've been exposed to excellent western examples of writing (hello, TLOU) that I can't seem to look back at Japanese storytelling in the same way I used to. It was only last generation when I was convinced that people like Square were the masters of narrative, of storytelling, of creating compelling characters. Now like everything else, Japan is dancing around in shadows, adhering to the same tired tropes and archetypes that we have all grown sick of years ago, with a style of writing that lacks all the subtleties of a regular shounen writer.

Anyway, I'm sort of digressing here. I'm not too concerned about the franchise going "downhill" so long as the individual game I am playing is solid all around. As mentioned already, FFXIV: ARR looks great for what it is, despite my inability to play it for a plethora of reasons, and I'm very interested to see how FFXV finally turns out after seven long years of blackouts and waiting. I would LIKE to hope that Square-Enix have overcome the landslide of problems they've encountered this generation, with FFXIV, Crystal Tools, poor management and direction, etc. to be far more well-prepared for the PS4 and the Xbone than they were this generation.

Just so long as I don't have to see another FFXIII and FFXIII-2 ever again...

 

[Shaissa]

I am going to kinda expand on what Fleur said for a bit.

You have to look at this generation as a huge clash... everyone gaming company is trying to figure out what the next "big thing" will be. and at the same time are trying to keep there old fans happy well trying to get new fans.

Final Fantasy (with a lot of rpg's and other game series in general that I can think of) at this point are at a "cross-roads" kinda deal. RPG's I feel in general are at this cross-roads

How do you please older fans that are slowly going be growing up and playing less and less video games, yet still want the Final Fantasy that they knew from.. whenever you first played. (me it was IV, when it was II in America back on the Snes) and at the same time you want to get the new fans, the younger generation to also like your games?

I feel that Final Fantasy XIII was a way to drag in more new fans versus keeping the older fans happy.

As far as going "downhill" since FFX I have to 100% disagree on this. For one, FFXI was an MMO, which this came out around the time that World of Warcraft was the only thing online anyone would talk about really... How can you not, as a gaming company, look at how World of Warcraft was making money and not try and get some of those profits for yourself?

Final Fantasy XII, you have to look as the most open world of any Final Fantasy (except maybe XI and XIV.) by this I mean there was so much to explore and see, and it wasn't just go to town to town to town get an airship then fly wherever. FFXII you had to explore and it was something very new with Final Fantasy which I feel that they need to keep doing. Keep doing new things with the series.

You also have to look at yourself this generation... Let me ask you this, how often are you really playing video games from this generation? No remakes, no HD collections... games that came out this generation... how often are you playing those? What type of games are they? are they the Old RPGs that you use to play back on.. PS2? PS1? SNES? Or did you move on to.. Call of Duty? Battlefield 3? Mass Effect? Dragon Age?

 

[Paddy McGee]

Leading off from what Shace began to mention at the end of his post- with a shift in gaming generation wise- I feel that the community as a whole has just moved away from JRPG's... Or, that's what Square Enix believes. They're too focused on transforming Final Fantasy into a western title. The slow removal of turn-based battle, the much simplified character skill development(I haven't played XIII-2) and a much more cinematic feel.They've messed up with XIII's story. They took two steps back... But does this mean a new trend? Not necessarily. I personally believe that they continued the XIII line because of necessity. They would've had the Versus---> XV transfer planned for some time... They needed to have some sort of aspect of the franchise running.

It's almost as if they're leaving the exploration side of RPG and dropping to the side for the likes of Western releases- The Elder Scrolls being the stellar standout to me. I do believe that these games do have a superior exploration system... But their narrative suffers for it. Square Enix could take such an advantage of this by giving us what we want with a good narrative, great mechanics and decent game diversity and leaving the super linear aspects to western RPGS

I feel that this is less of a decline and more of a bad re-direction of ideas. The newer games aren't horribly crafted. I'm not going to say I loved it, but XIII wasn't the worst game ever made. I just feel it was too new and too limited. I do feel it would've been better received had it not been a FF title.

That being said, it wouldn't have sold as much either- the Final Fantasy tag used to be quite a draw. Now it induces a mixed reaction of groans from critics, indifference from older fans, hope for optimistic and excitement from newer fans.


The MMO direction by SE was- in all honesty- the best finance choice they could've went for. Why wouldn't they take advantage of a market that was gagging for a new entrant?


All in all, I believe that Square Enix can recover from this once they make the right choices, think smartly and develop XV to be the best embodiment of Final Fantasy it can be for this(Or next) generation. They do well from other releases they have. They can make premier games- Deus EX is a prime example... They just need to transfer it into FF.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Its easy to dismiss turn base, and for good reason. As graphics go up, turn base starts to look more limiting and a hassle. However thats no excuse to use a turn based or ATB variant. We seen with Ffx and ffxii that they can make things more interesting. Why not bring back those features? SE wants to bring back the things they like, not what fans want. Such as switching members in midbattle. Its much more engaging than swotching jobs/paradigms/outfits and one gets to value those characters by making them useful in battle.

 

[Shaissa]

Its easy to dismiss turn base, and for good reason. As graphics go up, turn base starts to look more limiting and a hassle. However thats no excuse to use a turn based or ATB variant. We seen with Ffx and ffxii that they can make things more interesting. Why not bring back those features? SE wants to bring back the things they like, not what fans want. Such as switching members in midbattle. Its much more engaging than swotching jobs/paradigms/outfits and one gets to value those characters by making them useful in battle.

The question is what fans are we talking about? The new versus the old...

Gaming in general is at a huge cross-roads... probably the biggest one since... PS1 introduced disk based gaming to the consoles vs cartridges....
You have the younger generation that is generally wanting more "action" based games around the world overall.. Look at what are the top selling games now?

Call of Duty, Battlefield, Assassins Creed, Halo, Kill Zone, Infamous, Mass Effect.. Then you have the sports games and racing games... Yes there are JRPG's on the lists still don't get me wrong, but video games are changing at a dramatic rate. We have mobile/IOS/Social games now also that are easy to make and seem to make a good chunk of money for company's also.

You can say that Square-Enix isn't looking at the "Final Fantasy" fanbase when making games, but you have to realize with all this that they are going need to attract the newer generation, which is an "action base" generation overall. The proof is in what sells on the consoles, which we are since we are talking about Final Fantasy main series as a whole.

I understand your dislike for XIII franchise, but it helped slowly drag in a new fan base, which Square-Enix needs, thanks to this "crossroad" in gaming as I have been calling it. RPG gaming I feel will have to take a real step foward in the next generation, which will be very much more Action base and at the same time social based. Which path is Square taking? From the looks of FFXV I say that everything will get more action/ "western" based from here on out.

Us as the "old school gamers" are going to have to accept that Turn-Base RPGing will be a thing of the past. Will they still come out? of course.. heck Platform gaming hasn't died yet (although there are only a few that come out now and then, minus on the indie gaming).. but we wont see it main stream as it was from the Sega/Snes generation to the PS1/N64 generation... I would add the PS2/GC/XBOX generation but this is kinda where Action base rpging really took root over Turn-Based Rpging...

 

[Razberry Knight]

The question is what fans are we talking about? The new versus the old...

Gaming in general is at a huge cross-roads... probably the biggest one since... PS1 introduced disk based gaming to the consoles vs cartridges....
You have the younger generation that is generally wanting more "action" based games around the world overall.. Look at what are the top selling games now?

Call of Duty, Battlefield, Assassins Creed, Halo, Kill Zone, Infamous, Mass Effect.. Then you have the sports games and racing games... Yes there are JRPG's on the lists still don't get me wrong, but video games are changing at a dramatic rate. We have mobile/IOS/Social games now also that are easy to make and seem to make a good chunk of money for company's also.

You can say that Square-Enix isn't looking at the "Final Fantasy" fanbase when making games, but you have to realize with all this that they are going need to attract the newer generation, which is an "action base" generation overall. The proof is in what sells on the consoles, which we are since we are talking about Final Fantasy main series as a whole.

I understand your dislike for XIII franchise, but it helped slowly drag in a new fan base, which Square-Enix needs, thanks to this "crossroad" in gaming as I have been calling it. RPG gaming I feel will have to take a real step foward in the next generation, which will be very much more Action base and at the same time social based. Which path is Square taking? From the looks of FFXV I say that everything will get more action/ "western" based from here on out.

Us as the "old school gamers" are going to have to accept that Turn-Base RPGing will be a thing of the past. Will they still come out? of course.. heck Platform gaming hasn't died yet (although there are only a few that come out now and then, minus on the indie gaming).. but we wont see it main stream as it was from the Sega/Snes generation to the PS1/N64 generation... I would add the PS2/GC/XBOX generation but this is kinda where Action base rpging really took root over Turn-Based Rpging...

Xiii is a complete excuse. And the fanbase didnt grow as strongly as they hoped (not in the west at least) they not only targetted people outside of the fanbase, but outside gaming in general. Have the time people who were introduced to ff by ff13 were people who less than 3 years playing video games


the beauty of final fantasy is that they dont need to make a drastic change to gain fans. Each ff is its own. And xiii didnt do anything to say "hey new gamers, guess what you been missing" it just looked pretty....I aas introduced around ff7 and many of us have been around that time tok and of coursed we asked "wheres ff 1-6?" But once we plat it we realize each ff is its own. Gaining new fans? By what? Making a game painfully linear (more linear than any western game in this generation minus heavy rain). Making a system that provides NO BRAIN power. Characters that are just overbaring? A world we didnt understand and continue to scratch our heads at? No...ffXV is going to be the true ff game that will hurdle fans in and ffxiv for the online crazed. XIII only accomplished a cult dan base.

 

[FinalFantasyVIICC]

Yes I am a fan of the original turn-based battle systems and maybe its just because I'm longing for another game like Final Fantasy VII, I desperately want a remake of it, as well as a remake of Crisis Core because Zack is my favorite character and I think more could have been shown of his life.

 

[Tyler Breeze]

Ehh... Allow me to put my opinion on this matter into this here thread. Now, I first want to say that I am very much liking all of FFXIII. Both the story and gameplay I find very enjoyable. HOWEVER, after playing past games as well, it's easy to tell that XII, XIII, XIII-2, don't hold a candle to FFIX, FFVIII, FFVI, FFX as far as story goes. So I do feel that in some ways, they are letting the series die slowly. The stories in the most recent games don't compare to early titles. However, I feel gameplay and obviously graphics have gotten much better as the years have gone by. All this is gonna come down to is personal opinion. Final Fantasy is at the point where it can sell on name alone. Same as WrestleMania, it breaks PPV records every year, and it can sell just on it's name alone. It's to the point where both can be terrible, but they'd sell. Which means SE can pretty much release anything on a disc, and sell it with the Final Fantasy name. In the end, I think story is lacking, while I feel battle and graphics are better. I guess it's just having to change with the times. :/

 

[Starships]

Yeah since Final Fantasy X things have been rather depressing. Final Fantasy XIII has been a huge mess and yet Square won't leave it alone. I think that if Square just let Final Fantasy XIII be and concentrated on newer and future titles like FF XV and FF XVI things may of went down a more happier path.

Though FF XV is looking amazing despite it's changes. I do hope that the old school battle system will return one day though. I don't mind Square going down a WOW path since it was making shitloads of money with FFXI and FF XIV, but doing shit like All The Bravest was just disgusting and a giant finger towards the fans, towards us.

Yeah things have been rather gloomy, but there is a chance that things can improve IF after Lightning Returns Square leaves FF XIII alone and just lets it be, and FF XV is as solid game as it looks, and they don't pull out another " All The Bravest " bullshit on us. There's a chance that things can improve.

 

[Sheechiibii]

[FONT=Batang, serif]I am a big fan of Final Fantasy, and while technically because FFXIII was their latest project and I didn't like it, I suppose you could take that as me agreeing they've gone 'down-hill' I really don't think that as a franchise that can really be applied yet though. One bad game doesn't make a bad franchise. I loved FFXII, I thought it was a really good game, the story wasn't brilliant, but I liked it better than say FFVII. People tend to say that since X there have been no good FF games and I disagree. I really liked XIII-2 despite absolutely hating everything about the original.

So I'm very hopeful for the future of FF. In fact, I don't even think I'd say it's hopeful, I just kind of feel like there isn't a reason to think that there won't be good FF games again. Just because they've made one bad game, doesn't make me think they are incapable of making good games any more. Especially since I liked XIII-2. If the next 2 or three main games they release are as bad as XIII then I'll have a problem and then we can say they've gone downhill, but until then I don't really think it's true. [/FONT]

 

[L]

Well what do you expect? The games have seen a lot of drastic core value changes. Ideals that were once held so dear are not so important anymore.

Much of my irritation with the new games is relevant to only controlling one character and having an "Auto-Battle" option. I also miss Limit Breaks, they were a lot of fun and just seem to have become a rarity in the more recent games. I mean, no doubt some of the ways you could acquire limit break thresholds or the limit breaks themselves were stupid strong and remove a significant element of strategy from the games, but they could have just made them weaker and done different things, more readily available.

Personally aside from how unresponsive FFXIV is, I think it is looking really great. If that problem is addressed and the game has great endgame (no new mmo does lol), it's going to make a hell of a splash in MMO market.

But for their console games, I really think that they should take a page or two from Final Fantasy X, and keep modeling their games around it's core values:

Turn Based
Extensive Character/Equipment Customization, but maybe not as far as you could take it with Yuna knocking fiends with a staff and making it look like a cop pistol whipping a blind kid.
Tons of Content (Extra Dungeons to complete after beating the game, Minigames for great rewards, Boss Battles, etc.)

The amount of players that a game like Final Fantasy X appeals to, is why it is one of the most recommended games in the series. Not to mention, for a 9 year old game it really doesn't look that bad. Final Fantasy 7 was also a lot like Final Fantasy X because of the way you could customize your battle setup, had endgame challenges and the Gold Saucer was a lot of fun, too. Limit Breaks weren't too over the top in FF7 unless you were fighting something that basically almost one shot your character. Until, of course, you got Ominslash lol.

 

[Shaissa]

The funny is that no matters how much people seem to hate XIII... they still went and bought XIII-2... and sure some people liked it, but others still hated it... Now that XIII-3 is coming out, why do I feel like those that hated XIII and XIII-2 are still going buy XIII-3 just so they can complain about it?

If you really had a problem with it, you shouldn't buy stuff related to it. Also people hear seem to say they want real Turn-base back, yet at the same time, they saw FFVer... I mean.. FFXV and seemed to love it... yet the game will be action based, more like Kingdom Hearts than any Final Fantasy as far as gameplay is concerned.

Also with FFXV Square-Enix proves that they can make games that everyone hates in the series and yet show something that they showed 7+ years ago and make everyone love them again and forget they hated FFXIII...

So are they going downhill? Not at all. They are going to sell millions and millions of anything that is Final Fantasy, and in the end, that is all that is going matter...

 

[Razberry Knight]

The funny is that no matters how much people seem to hate XIII... they still went and bought XIII-2... and sure some people liked it, but others still hated it... Now that XIII-3 is coming out, why do I feel like those that hated XIII and XIII-2 are still going buy XIII-3 just so they can complain about it?

If you really had a problem with it, you shouldn't buy stuff related to it. Also people hear seem to say they want real Turn-base back, yet at the same time, they saw FFVer... I mean.. FFXV and seemed to love it... yet the game will be action based, more like Kingdom Hearts than any Final Fantasy as far as gameplay is concerned.

Also with FFXV Square-Enix proves that they can make games that everyone hates in the series and yet show something that they showed 7+ years ago and make everyone love them again and forget they hated FFXIII...

So are they going downhill? Not at all. They are going to sell millions and millions of anything that is Final Fantasy, and in the end, that is all that is going matter...

But how many actually gave xiii-2 a chance? The sales between xiii and xiii-2 are vastly different. Going down hill is a matter of opinion. People still buy sonic games but several ppl say its going down hill.

Lets remember the head of SE stepped down. And had to remake XIV. Its definitely repairable. But it is going downhill

 

[Evee]

The profit or the true passion, what matters more? What's most important?

I believe last FFs are oppressed by marketing choises of the Square Enix staff that prefers sacrificing the spirit of Final Fantasy to sell much more games without caring about true fans. They are only looking for a way to survive to the laws of business, but they don't realize that they are only destroying the series to create an Occindental RPG while FF should be a J-RPG. They're transforming all the aspects of a true FF: from the gameplay to the story and the characters. Sincerly, I can't recognize Shiva in the motobike of FFXIII (that's only an example). Shiva is born to be a Summon with the look of the empress of ice. She's not a Transformer O:

Where are the creative minds of Final Fantasy?


Once Final Fantasy thaught us something important, it was able to move our hearts, it was rich of pathos. Now, where is all this?
Besides, each chapter was distict from others, it wasn't linked with the others so we could appreciate something new each time. Now we have FFXIII, FFXIII-2, Lightning Returns-FFXIII...what's more?

 

[Razberry Knight]

The profit or the true passion, what matters more? What's most important?

I believe last FFs are oppressed by marketing choises of the Square Enix staff that prefers sacrificing the spirit of Final Fantasy to sell much more games without caring about true fans. They are only looking for a way to survive to the laws of business, but they don't realize that they are only destroying the series to create an Occindental RPG while FF should be a J-RPG. They're transforming all the aspects of a true FF: from the gameplay to the story and the characters. Sincerly, I can't recognize Shiva in the motobike of FFXIII (that's only an example). Shiva is born to be a Summon with the look of the empress of ice. She's not a Transformer O:

Where are the creative minds of Final Fantasy?


Once Final Fantasy thaught us something important, it was able to move our hearts, it was rich of pathos. Now, where is all this?
Besides, each chapter was distict from others, it wasn't linked with the others so we could appreciate something new each time. Now we have FFXIII, FFXIII-2, Lightning Returns-FFXIII...what's more?

I agree completely....people keep saying XIII was necessary to hurdle new fans, but any new ff would have done that. Its like saying FFVII was needed to get into the 3d era of FF.

Xiii tried too hard NOT to be an ff. Bombs were mechanical monsters, the only faithful summon was alexander (because he's a giant machine). But they dug themselves a HUGE grave with the crystal tools system. They created a system so limiting that wasnt even meant to be open world. Why create such a horrible system? They now abandoning most of it this upcoming generation of FF.

To me profit matters because I know it affects upcoming games. This entire generation dedicated to 1 subseries.....it was horrible.....but with ps4, I hope they dont make that mistake.

 

[Evee]

To me profit matters because I know it affects upcoming games. This entire generation dedicated to 1 subseries.....it was horrible.....but with ps4, I hope they dont make that mistake.

They have to remember only one thing: market rewards, market punishes.


Hoping for FFXV <3

 

[Robbiedbee]

The funny is that no matters how much people seem to hate XIII... they still went and bought XIII-2... and sure some people liked it, but others still hated it... Now that XIII-3 is coming out, why do I feel like those that hated XIII and XIII-2 are still going buy XIII-3 just so they can complain about it?

If you really had a problem with it, you shouldn't buy stuff related to it.

How will we know if we don't like a game if we don't play it? I didn't like FFXIII, but I bought FFXIII-2 because FFX-2 was a massive departure from FFX, and was hoping for something equally as radically different.

We're fans, we buy the games, it's what we do. An online community like this one represents the diehard fans of the series, and will in the main buy most stuff Squeenix will throw at us.