how would you feel if this happened to you?

[Razberry Knight]

I'm sure you all know where I'm going with this, but I think I need to ask it anyways because just attempting to answer it will give everyone some Perspective.

Lets say you are a game developer, you have one concept and it was fully announced as a project. This game you are making is a spin off of another series but you are very ambitious about it.

However, your project is put on the back burner. you are working on other titles as you work on the bitious project you have. And you always muster up a trailer to show more of the concept. And you give interviews on how this is your project. But nevertheless you aren't in full production because of other games...mainly a series you feel indifferent about.

So now that those games are finished and, the company you work for even expanded your crew. you finally get to work on that ambitious games your early fans have been anticipating. Only now there are thoughts going around that a project this ambitious should be a main title.

You were told that this would not change the vision of your game. And you go for it. You work hard with ever growing tech and it had grown more and more. You show off a re-reveal trailer and you feel a great deal of satisfaction.

But now as development is going, you gain Co director. And it's not bad, he's just helping push your vision further. He has been in interviews exclaiming that fact and you feel comfortable. But now things are being reworked, you have bigger crew and you are also having different takes. Eventually the company asks you to work on the other games and allow the others to work on this game. Sounds good right? After all you already set the foundation of the game, the characters and more. Your Co director even goes on record exclaiming that. And you leave with confidence but ever so slightly a bit of skepticism on the final product.

But....something happened. And this is where everything changes. Suddenly you hear an announcement, that this game isn't the same as the game you we're working on. They exclaim that they made the bold decision of using the original concept you created and invent a new game over it. They use all your characters, the very basics of your story, but they remove and alter key characters. Some are just pure aesthetics that wouldn't have impacted the game at all.

You can't say anything negative, but you have yet to point anything positive. Into he midst you are seeing more and more of the changes they made. Additionally, you hear fans talk about it. You year one say that your game was a failure. You hear others not caring at all.


How would you feel? I ask this because I've always put myself in their shoes.

 

[Ayen]

I would be super pissed and feel like crap to be honest. Good question. Never really thought about it this way. I mean, people should still be allowed to state their thoughts on something, but yeah. Everyone you criticize has a face.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Yes...and sometimes director changes happen. Mostly because optimizing projects, but this one situation gave me a sour taste.


A particular editor throughout his development of this game stated: "I wouldn't have made the FF games as they are now, but it's as they should be because they we're his project".

“It was the company’s decision, I can’t say anything more than that.”

^^when this is all you left to say...it speaks volumes on you feel about it. Even if there are non disclosures

 

[Razberry Knight]

I know ff15 will be remembered as a great game. Heck, do we even need to play it to know? The story can be complete crap, the characters can be unlovable, but it's an open world JRPG with action elements and teleporting. Even if you feel OP, the idea of traversing is there.

But the game just doesn't look like it has heart anymore. Hajime tabata now claims it's his project. I'm sour, but that's because I sympathize with the creators over the fans. Fans can have nomura and not care.

So long as they get the game they wanted to see regardless of name changes, character redesigns, story changes and so. Its still somehow the game they wanted.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

I dunno. The game now doesn't seem too far off from what we knew of Nomura's original vision. And I personally think that it's practically a requirement that Nomura has someone else to keep him in check. As much as I love his art, and the innovative ideas he can often come up with, he has no sense of restraint. He needs someone to reign him in. I don't think the story of XV will end up a mess, nor will most anything else in the game. And I think it's precisely because Nomura doesn't have control of it anymore. He laid the no-doubt crazy groundwork for it, and now it's being turned into something that actually makes sense. In other words, I think he did his part, and it's time for him to trust the team to make it great.

That's always the downside of being an 'auteur' style game director; sometimes you just don't realize how unrealistic or scatterbrained your visions are, and you need someone else to bring it back down to earth. Nomura is one of the worst offenders of this idea. These games are team projects. I'd say it's his problem if he doesn't understand that.

All that being said, there's no way to say for 100% sure what is and isn't a change he's okay with, or what changes will actually lead to a better/worse project. But comparing his previous solo projects to those where he was forced to work as a team, I'd say it's much more likely that these changes will make XV more coherent.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I dunno. The game now doesn't seem too far off from what we knew of Nomura's original vision. And I personally think that it's practically a requirement that Nomura has someone else to keep him in check. As much as I love his art, and the innovative ideas he can often come up with, he has no sense of restraint. He needs someone to reign him in. I don't think the story of XV will end up a mess, nor will most anything else in the game. And I think it's precisely because Nomura doesn't have control of it anymore. He laid the no-doubt crazy groundwork for it, and now it's being turned into something that actually makes sense. In other words, I think he did his part, and it's time for him to trust the team to make it great.

Nomuras main director role has been kingdom hearts, and he's An amazing concept Creator. I'm not saying he needs to be the director, but I'll explain what happened was more than a simple change in role.

Tetsuya Nomura's direction wasnt the problem. He had the green light to turn it into main title despite the direction he was taking it.

If he needed to controlled, then all what was needed was ask him to change the direction. I don't believe the change in direction of the game is what needed to happen. But also looking at the timeline, that's not what happened. Its clear he needed to go due to gain more productivity for the company. There's KH2.8 final chapter prologue, KH3 and the announced final fantasy 7 remake.

But if you read what I wrote. I'm sure you will see.

That's always the downside of being an 'auteur' style game director; sometimes you just don't realize how unrealistic or scatterbrained your visions are, and you need someone else to bring it back down to earth. Nomura is one of the worst offenders of this idea. These games are team projects. I'd say it's his problem if he doesn't understand that.

Once again. Ffv13 was greenlit to be renamed as ff15 by Se with the direction he was taking already. That was Nomuras condition.

Let me remind everyone what ffv13 was originally intended. Final fantasy versus xiii was originally intended to be alternate ff. This game was primarily sold as what nomura thought final fantasy didn't have. if you read the interviews he had a specific direction that we haven't seen yet.

Now with the current direction it's epic but just not exactly unique or original.

All that being said, there's no way to say for 100% sure what is and isn't a change he's okay with, or what changes will actually lead to a better/worse project. But comparing his previous solo projects to those where he was forced to work as a team, I'd say it's much more likely that these changes will make XV more coherent.

the easiest way to solve that is nomura speaking up to it. But he hasn't. He has not mentioned a word. And normally this is the first thing you do.

The fact that they need to suoercede his approval with the father of FF says a lot more.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

I dunno. I just don't see it that way. What we've seen looks plenty great and plenty original at this point. I don't personally think having Nomura at the head of it the whole time would have helped in any way. But there's just no way of knowing, because we will never get both versions of the game. Even if he did speak up and 'reveal everything', there's no guarantee that his ideas -regardless of how different or 'better' they might be- would end up with a better project. So I don't think there's any reason to be concerned with it. And like I said, he's been in the industry long enough to know that these are team projects. If he's got a problem with that, he probably shouldn't be making games.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I dunno. I just don't see it that way. What we've seen looks plenty great and plenty original at this point. I don't personally think having Nomura at the head of it the whole time would have helped in any way. But there's just no way of knowing, because we will never get both versions of the game. Even if he did speak up and 'reveal everything', there's no guarantee that his ideas -regardless of how different or 'better' they might be- would end up with a better project. So I don't think there's any reason to be concerned with it. And like I said, he's been in the industry long enough to know that these are team projects. If he's got a problem with that, he probably shouldn't be making games.

You have two misconceptions.

That the problem is because Nomura should be the head. And that it's a team effort vs one person.


Of course it's a team effort, but not in the sense that you make it out to be. We have not only lost Nomura as director but other team members through the transition.


I know you don't see it that way but this is exactly how it happened. Nomura wasn't removed because of what you make it out to be. Nomura was removed at a crucial time. The time right before Square Enix said this game had to be.

Hajime Tabata that the story and characters we're already grounded and they we're already moving toward what Nomura already established. Remember that in one year, they decided otherwise.

Open your eyes

 

[Shaissa]

I think there was another plan and Nomura agreed to it, I mean they don't usually change directors without a really good reason. He is now the director of FFVII remake, so it isn't like they ditched him or fired him or put him on something pointless, They put him on the FFVII remake, which some might argue can be a greater task than FFXV.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

You have two misconceptions.

That the problem is because Nomura should be the head. And that it's a team effort vs one person.


Of course it's a team effort, but not in the sense that you make it out to be. We have not only lost Nomura as director but other team members through the transition.


I know you don't see it that way but this is exactly how it happened. Nomura wasn't removed because of what you make it out to be. Nomura was removed at a crucial time. The time right before Square Enix said this game had to be.

Hajime Tabata that the story and characters we're already grounded and they we're already moving toward what Nomura already established. Remember that in one year, they decided otherwise.

Open your eyes

Please don't ask me to 'Open my eyes'. All I'm saying is that none of this matters at the very end. We cannot know what would've happened in any other alternate universe. So the only thing that matters is how the final product ends up. Business choices are business choices, and we have no way of knowing why exactly any of this stuff happened. It's rather silly to form solidified opinions on such conjecture. Beyond that though, all you're doing is setting yourself up to expect disappointment. It seems like you're searching for reasons to see this game as a failure, and I feel that being upset at Nomura's removal (especially with only rumors as your basis) is really reaching pretty far. I'm saying, try to enjoy the game for what it is when it's released. Don't condemn it to failure because of what it won't become.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I think there was another plan and Nomura agreed to it, I mean they don't usually change directors without a really good reason. He is now the director of FFVII remake, so it isn't like they ditched him or fired him or put him on something pointless, They put him on the FFVII remake, which some might argue can be a greater task than FFXV.

OK if you look at the timeline that isn't true. We we're simply not informed and their answer isn't consistent.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Please don't ask me to 'Open my eyes'. All I'm saying is that none of this matters at the very end. We cannot know what would've happened in any other alternate universe. So the only thing that matters is how the final product ends up. Business choices are business choices, and we have no way of knowing why exactly any of this stuff happened. It's rather silly to form solidified opinions on such conjecture. Beyond that though, all you're doing is setting yourself up to expect disappointment. It seems like you're searching for reasons to see this game as a failure, and I feel that being upset at Nomura's removal (especially with only rumors as your basis) is really reaching pretty far. I'm saying, try to enjoy the game for what it is when it's released. Don't condemn it to failure because of what it won't become.

Here's the facts. He wasn't removed for the reasons you make it out to be. The timeline and the inconsistencies just don't add up.

And most of what I mentioned is true. The fact is ffvs13 wasn't worked on because Square enix out other projects as priority. The goal for ffvs13 to look like the most HD so by the time it was in full production.

We know that hajime tabata was Co directing to increase productivity for the game. We know when tetsuya nomura left it was because he needed to work on other important titles confirmed by ffxv staff member.

But in one year we should've expected the game in E3 2014 and it hasn't been shown. But they hyped gamescon for more information and it was the infamous DAWN trailer.






Here's the problem. Accept the game for what it is? That will always be tetsuyas nomuras concept being reworked and changed. So I won't see a clear single vision. Its clear he didn't design cidney.other people have.

 

[Razberry Knight]

AuronX and ZaXo Ken'Ichi

The question is how would you feel if this has happened to you? I know it's easy to ignore the question and "try" to think up a different scenario. But everything I said is based on information given. The only thing that is conjecture is the feelings but everything that actually happens in the scenario actually happens here.

 

[AuronX]

I actually know pretty well how this feels--I'm not a charismatic personality by nature but I have always been highly creative, and that has led to me developing many ideas with very specific goals in mind only to have someone else take over and spin things off into a wildly different direction so that the end result doesn't look anything like what I intended--and sometimes it has even still bore my name and been rather embarrassing since it's no longer really mine and not something I'd necessarily stand for.

But here's the thing: I was a kid.

Yes I know what it feels like, but I also know the telltale signs of when it's going to happen, and as an adult I'd either clear my name of the project and let people do what they want or stand my ground and maintain control. Now if you throw in business politics this may or may not be possible, and if not then yeah, it would be a frustrating place to be. But it's also expected. If you're in any type of creative industry and can't handle having your babies raised by other people, you probably won't last long in the industry. When you make an IP that gets big enough, you sell it. You sell it to a company who will let you have influence over it if possible, but you better be prepared for them to leave you behind. And when that happens you better be prepared to pick up some other idea you've got and pursue that instead. That's just the way the industry works, and it's not necessarily as evil as it sounds. You talk a lot about Tetsuya Nomura, but what about Hironobu Sakaguchi? He's the father of the entire series and watched it drift further and further outside his guidance. But at the same time, if he had remained in control of the series, would we have Final Fantasy XV or Versus XIII at all? Probably not.

As a creator, your goal should be to create IP that attracts fans who can rise up and carry on the IP without you. That's the only way to give your IP true longevity.

Now, as for Nomura, the situation with him and FFXV is not as depressing as you think. He even said himself that he was surprised to see fans acting like Square Enix booted him off the project. When it was decided to switch Versus XIII into a main series title, Nomura did the ground work and then left to focus on Kingdom Hearts III. He had a job and finished it. I'm sure FFXV has evolved greatly since the work he did, but Nomura's not the martyr you're making him out to be on this one.

 

[Razberry Knight]

AuronX I can guarantee you that this you would feel the exact same way even as an adult. There has been controversy every time a game takes a completely different direction Because of change of director. Its not a game thing either. but you didn't answer the question.

Any industry can be cold and heartless but that's no excuse for ffxv. Ffxv actually shouldve been above it because of the length.


Ant-Man, Final Fantasy XII, Battle Royals II, and Stiegg Larrson's Millennium series have risen a lot of controversy. Sure most people don't remember now because new controversies rise.

Ant-Man change of director before filming


Final Fantasy XII half way through director became to I'll to continue and different director had to cover.

Batal Royale II's director died. He wasnt even in producing the movie. His son saw his script and decided to make it.


And the worst of them all is stiegg larrsons Millennium series or The girl with the dragon tattoo series. Which the publisher contracted someone to create a new book and not even his Co writer and assistant was ever asked to work on it?


Ff12 most people who weren't aware of it don't say anything. BUT those who we're aware swear the game feels completely different second half.

Ant-man was salvageable since it was before filming. Plus they didn't alter the script as much.

However Stiegg Larrsons has no shame. The publishing company wanted some random writer not even the assistant.

All of these had controversy. Ff15 does a good job acting like it never happened.

 

[AuronX]

@AuronX I can guarantee you that this you would feel the exact same way even as an adult. ... but you didn't answer the question.

I said that I know what it feels like because I do, and I'm sure some of those feelings would still be present should it happen again on a bigger scale, but I would also not get into such a situation unprepared and that would definitely affect my response.

But there is a reason my last reply spent most of its time not answering your question directly, and that is because I don't think it's a helpful question to ask. Like I said, Nomura's not the martyr you're making him out to be. Drumming up bad feelings just to see what they feel like will not lead to any constructive discussion of FFXV or its development process. For all you and I know the story of FFXV has largely retained Nomura's groundwork. Until he comes out and says he's disappointed with FFXV and feels he got slighted by SE passing off direction to someone else, I'm going to assume his relationship with Hajime Tabata is nothing like that--because he and Tabata both have given every indication it isn't.

The real problem here is that you feel like FFXV was yanked from your hands and changed into something you don't want it to be. And hey, that's fair enough--you're entitled to feel that way. But with all due respect, I'd say this looks more like you're putting Nomura into your shoes, not the other way around.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Prove it AuronX. Put the money where it matters. Show me what I said was mostly conjecture. Show me where Se did their very best to not make it look like what it is.

I also want to clarify that i dont see this as Hajime Tabata vs Tetsuya Nomura. I see this as a game with a clear vision that had to change due to for seen events to come but still didn't take the right steps to make sure the majority of the fans.

And you're right I wanted something different because that's what was prepped into my mind for years. And as the years went by more and more became solidified. If it was just one trailer and one interview I might not have cared.

 

[AuronX]

The way you phrase that sounds like you're asking me to prove a negative, so let's look at what can be proven with a word straight from Square Enix EU on the subject of Nomura leaving the FFXV project:

Now before you start to freak out, let me explain how this is a good thing. There’s no denying that Tetsuya Nomura has been instrumental to the development of Final Fantasy XV and he’s done an incredible job. His main role as director was working on the original concept for the story and universe and also creating the characters. Now that development of Final Fantasy XV has come so far, Nomura’s work is pretty much all in place so instead of having him keep an eye on the more day to day stuff, we thought it’d be a better idea to pass the reigns over to Hajime Tabata and let Nomura move onto other projects and make games that only he could do, you know, like Kingdom Hearts III.

I believe I recall Hajime Tabata confirming as much in one of the FFXV Active Time Report streams, too. Nomura has Kingdom Hearts III and the FFVII Remake on his hands. There's no reason to believe he left the FFXV project on anything but good terms.

 

[Razberry Knight]

The way you phrase that sounds like you're asking me to prove a negative, so let's look at what can be proven with a word straight from Square Enix EU on the subject of Nomura leaving the FFXV project:



I believe I recall Hajime Tabata confirming as much in one of the FFXV Active Time Report streams, too. Nomura has Kingdom Hearts III and the FFVII Remake on his hands. There's no reason to believe he left the FFXV project on anything but good terms.

OK you don't understand what I'm saying. Please reply read my scenario. Or the scenario as presented.

Also that quote specifically says story, universe and characters, so it implies that Hajime Tabata was to bring the gameplay aspect. Not that he'll change the story, and characters.


And you are using an old quote. A quote that if was true to this day I wouldn't mind. When tetsuya nomura left, I was still confident in ffxv.

Something changed.in Q4 of 2914 that's when the shift was announced. A year after nomuras departure.

 

[.Mosh]

I would give up AuronX it's like talking to a brick wall no matter what you throw at this topic there will somehow be a reply. This topic is just straining out from what I can tell.

If Hajime took over from gameplay only as the quote above specified everything else then he didn't really alter much at all. The original gameplay videos of Nomuras version had a near identical battle system. It was a free flow action system like Kingdom Hearts. Exactly what we have to this day.

Plus I don't understand people's complaints saying Kingdom Hearts battle system is better. This is designed by the same people and feels more weighty compared to the more floaty KH system.

Anyway not sure what else to say, good luck everyone!