Religious Beliefs

[DKnight]

one correction on the genesis story. Eve did not take all the blame. Notice it was Adam that God was most angry at. Each character had there own unique punishment.
and one thing that does happen in the bible if you have never noticed it before, is the man is always charged by God to take care of women. if anything, one the the bibles stroggest arguments is the importants of mothers.
Christianity is nothing about male diminance, but how we all are supposed to act with each other bothe male and female. Some of Christianity's most praised heroes are women. It is just that most people look away from them. people chose only to pay attention to small parts of the story. that is why this misunderstanding of which religion dominates was created. Plus God is not interpreted as he, she or it. God is something else entirely, so you cannot say that it is biased in that manner either.
Much like all other religions, Christianity is not well understood by many, even most of it's own members.

 

[der Astronom]

Are you sure? This quote seems to indicate otherwise.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

And here is a quote on how God hates women in control.

Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path ... The LORD says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles. Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the LORD will make their scalps bald."

In modern society, none of these things are tolerable. This isn't just male dominance, but God's not allowing women to have any rights, even if it means they will be protected.

 

[DKnight]

you have only a select few.

Genesis 2:24
"That is why man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one."
equality.
Exodus 17: 15-16
"As for your wife, do not call her Sarai; her name shall be sarah. I will bless her, and I will give you a son by her."
holyness of the mother.

and don't forget the prayer the Hail Mary. itself is signicantto the religion and the role of mothers.

I will end with a passage from the gospel of Luke for now. I have more to share, but here is this.

Luke 1:46-50
And Mary said:
"My soul proclaims the greatness of the lord; my soirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages cal me blesses. The mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. His mersy is from age to age to those who fear him."
by the way, in the bible the word fear means to believe and revere.

 

[der Astronom]

"Good" verses don't dismiss the ones that suggest otherwise. How do you explain the ones I found? Is there really an inconsistency in the bible?

And how does anyone account for the misogyny of Paul?

 

[DKnight]

ah but you must read further. for the next line in timothy which you left out reads: " But she will be saved through motherhood"
and the the bible verse that you ha ve suggested from Isaiah, speaks only of whores.
in order to understand the bible, one must learn how to interpret it, by seeing both who the message is to, and who it is about. the bible actually holds very few meanings, but yet it has so many books in it. That is because even though books hold the same meaning, they are there for different understandings that people may have. That is why some people only like certain books of the bible, because that certain book is the one that helps them to understand what they believe.
Paul is a great example of this, considering he had the most diverse audiance in the entire bible. he had to say things ina way that each individual community may relate, and in that time, yes the world was male dominate. His letters can still relate to many people today, because many families do believe in the male dominance in a family, because it is the males duty to be the powerfull one, the protector, the leader, and the even the one who must face the most stress.
So I finish this little lesson with:
there are many interpretations of the bible. you see what you want to see in it. If you want to see the bad in it, then you will, if you want to see the good in it, then you will, If you want to see both sides of it then you will.Just keep an open mind to deeper understanding.
If you need more passages to support my thought's I would be happy to to give some more.

 

[Tethar]

It is obvious to me that the bible is saying all woman are worthless and have no rights unless they have children.

This is absolutly pathetic.
Why can women only be saved by having children?
Why is it that only mothers are worthy creatures?

Don't even bother trying to justify this aburdity. I find the very idea that women should be forced into having children so they will even be recognised to be an obvious case of how gender biased the bible is.

I chose not to quote scripture as I have no reason to read the words of sexist scum.

 

[DKnight]

do you know what it means to be a mother. it is not to have children of your own, but that is something. to be a mother is to be in a position of taking care of those that need it. there are reasons why there are female saints. none have ever had a child or been married. but they are still considered blessed, because they took care of others like a mother, and in a sense became mothers.

 

[der Astronom]

Which only means that the bible is being vague and dishonest because "motherhood" is certainly not very well defined, according to either of you. Even so, why can't women have the choice of taking care of people if they choose to? In modern society today, there are women who choose not to take care of others, and live alone. I don't for once believe it's wrong. Anyone of any gender should be able to live life how they want to.

And women ruling over themselves does not make them whores. You can't justify God punishing women just because they're whores; it doesn't work that way. Perhaps the concept of God unjustly punishing a woman even if she's not a whore doesn't appeal to you, but it's not impossible.

Male dominance in history is still no excuse for what was written back then. It is not acceptable in modern times, and never will be. Why does Paul's writing hold any water at all if it's misogynist? It doesn't matter when he wrote it; history does not excuse the fact that he discriminates against women. Or society did. It doesn't matter who takes the blame, it's still misogynist and considered wrong.

 

[DKnight]

I'm not say women that rule over themselves are whores. I said that that passage you had refered to whores. those women do not rule over themselves, but are the temptation of lust.
and about society back then. it is much like how it is with much of the Islamic world right now. It is the women that feel it is right for themselves to be in those positions. it has nothing to do with dominance.
and with the thing about women living alone; they do not have to be taking care of children to be taking care of someone. just a small act of compassion is enough to influence someone.
Next, not everything that happens to a person is punishment. Have you ever notice that some of the strongest and most influential women in the world are that way because they have some illness.
and Your idea of how male diminance is not excepted in moddern is myth. I have seen it first hand. true there is the idea of equality, but not the whole world sees it that way. there are still many homes in the world where the wife stays home to take care of the house whil only the husband goes for work.

ps.
I love the way you detest the bible because you only read what the words say, and don't look at the message it is trying to pass on. my question is: what do you hate about th bible? the message of compassion and love? Or, that way it is being told to you? to tell you something though. The bible is just a small part of religion. The true religion is the life you live, not the book you read. That is something I have been trying to teach many of my friends, mostly church goers. they consentrate on the book more than the way they live and many of them are hypocrits because of it. If it is the people of the religion that bother I you That is a different story. The truth is that there are very few christains that can rightfully call themselves that, because they do not live the life they say they are going to. there are few christians that follow the message and not the words.

 

[der Astronom]

I'm not say women that rule over themselves are whores. I said that that passage you had refered to whores. those women do not rule over themselves, but are the temptation of lust.

Oh, so now being "haughty", walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, and having ornaments jingling on their ankles somehow makes them whores or tempted to lust? Lust is a part of life, and I find it rather strange to want to shun it. Granted, an overdose of lust might be unhealthy, but as long as you're not intervening on someone else's business, I don't consider it harmful.

and about society back then. it is much like how it is with much of the Islamic world right now. It is the women that feel it is right for themselves to be in those positions. it has nothing to do with dominance.

Then I'm not going to force them to change the way they think. I still think it's wrong, but it's none of my business. But to believe what Paul writes about misogyny or that a male dominated society is somehow right in my mind is wrong.

and with the thing about women living alone; they do not have to be taking care of children to be taking care of someone. just a small act of compassion is enough to influence someone.

Well gee, shouldn't it have been so much easier to just say "compassion" as they do with men or people in every other passage, but with women, it's suddenly "motherhood"? Seriously, what's with the distinction here? See how less ambiguous it becomes when you say "compassion" as compared to "motherhood", which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing?

Next, not everything that happens to a person is punishment. Have you ever notice that some of the strongest and most influential women in the world are that way because they have some illness.

I'm not sure I know what you mean. But without God in the picture, I can say that anyone who is in some way disabled or somehow at a disadvantage compared to everyone else can be motivated to improve and show the world what they're made of. All you need are a few people to motivate you and cheer you on, and your own self confidence. If anything, God would only discourage people with fear and faith.

and Your idea of how male diminance is not excepted in moddern is myth. I have seen it first hand. true there is the idea of equality, but not the whole world sees it that way. there are still many homes in the world where the wife stays home to take care of the house whil only the husband goes for work.

Yes, I disagree with people who think male dominance is right, but I can't force them to change their views anymore than I can convert a fundamentalist into an atheist. Not that I would. And don't automatically assume that a household where the man goes to work and the wife stays home is an example of male dominance. Perhaps the wife can't find a job, or does a better job of raising children than the man does, or perhaps she's just lazy, stays home, and lets the man do all the work, then goes out to socialize and party when her man is working and unaware of it.

ps.
I love the way you detest the bible because you only read what the words say, and don't look at the message it is trying to pass on. my question is: what do you hate about th bible? the message of compassion and love? Or, that way it is being told to you? to tell you something though. The bible is just a small part of religion. The true religion is the life you live, not the book you read. That is something I have been trying to teach many of my friends, mostly church goers. they consentrate on the book more than the way they live and many of them are hypocrits because of it. If it is the people of the religion that bother I you That is a different story. The truth is that there are very few christains that can rightfully call themselves that, because they do not live the life they say they are going to. there are few christians that follow the message and not the words.

After having read the Old Testament, how could anyone not detest the bible? You'd have to be seriously blinded by faith, or dull not to realize that your God is killing innocent babies, children and women, and other people, promoting racism, making people kill their own children for sacrifices, then takes away all our free will for punishing us with death for a few measly crimes (and they're not much of crimes anyways), and in the next breath, this somehow proves that he's loving.

If you choose not to believe the book, then fine. Lots of liberal Christians don't. But if you hold any value of that book at all, you'll have to admit that the Old Testament is filled with horrible atrocities done by God, and at some point or another, it has lead people to conclude that God is nothing more than a mass murderer and punisher of his children.

 

[Sar]

Organized religion has manipulated the masses for hundreds of thousands of years. Science has slowly widdled away at the fabric of religion, so holding on to these primordial beliefs is ridiculous. Get over it, it's not going to be around much longer.

 

[Abel]

Religion is nothing more than a viral meme, infecting the minds of billions. Have you ever been to a central Pennsylvania town? It's so creepy; everyone there loves their Jesus and hates you if you don't.

 

[Sar]

Indiana is exactly the same way.

 

[DKnight]

yes the old testament has a lot to do with the wrath of god. The new testamnet on the otherhand, mainly the gospels takes on a whole new perspective. it is the compassion of god. Why do you think I'm not Jewish. lol. not to offend anyone that is. I have nothing against Jews. Some of my friends are jews.
about changeing people. it must be done gradually. the bible is just a starting point, but the real journey with religion is contemplating your own life and morals.

and about your think about how those were signs of whores, that is what whores did and dressed like back then. and about what you said about lust is exactly what I was trying to say. don't you think that just picking up a girl on the street just for sex is too much of lust.

about the disadvantage point that you made, it actually goes the other way around, those with disadvantages are some the the most inspiring people in the world. they inspire hope and change in people with no disabilities at all.

One little lesson about the bible: There are many different ways that the bible could be translated into english. each translation can cause a different feeling. it is how words are put together that causes different understandings.

 

[der Astronom]

yes the old testament has a lot to do with the wrath of god. The new testamnet on the otherhand, mainly the gospels takes on a whole new perspective. it is the compassion of god. Why do you think I'm not Jewish. lol. not to offend anyone that is. I have nothing against Jews. Some of my friends are jews.

It could also be said that the New Testament makes the Old Testament look even worse, because not only does the Old Testament says you'll suffer, but you'll suffer eternally if you don't believe in God. As for believing in God, that's part of free will, and if I were allowed free will, then I shouldn't be punished for it.

about changeing people. it must be done gradually. the bible is just a starting point, but the real journey with religion is contemplating your own life and morals.

I choose not to focus my life morals around the bible because it's too confusing, and it's a waste of my time. I enjoy things as I see them. I don't need any other perspective of them except what I see in them. I live life fine without your God, and I will continue doing so.
Even after a long time, nothing will cause me to lose my mind and reasoning to turn to blind faith. Don't expect it will work anytime soon. I'd expect no one of faith would want to lose it either.

and about your think about how those were signs of whores, that is what whores did and dressed like back then. and about what you said about lust is exactly what I was trying to say. don't you think that just picking up a girl on the street just for sex is too much of lust.

It's not wrong for women to be proud today, and they don't deserve to have sores for it. Prostitution has been around for a long time. It's a profession, and apparently, a lifestyle for some. Since none of them are actually intervening on my life because I can choose to refuse their services and not pay for them, and people can have a little self control without God, I don't see any reason why they're doing anything wrong. To me, it's wrong of God to punish women for being "whores" because they choose that lifestyle.
"Too much lust" is when you go out of your way to rape someone or intervene on someone else's sex life without his/her consent.

about the disadvantage point that you made, it actually goes the other way around, those with disadvantages are some the the most inspiring people in the world. they inspire hope and change in people with no disabilities at all.

The point is that God actually intended to hurt people as punishment. The conditions are rather clear. If you do something that makes God angry, he'll punish you. If you do something he doesn't like, he'll punish you too. If you stop believing in him, and he goes all anal about it, he'll still punish you. He didn't "punish" people because he wanted them to be great people; the people he made great were the people that mindlessly followed him. Moses did, and so did Abraham. I have not seen God hurt someone so that they could become famous. As for Job, he gave everything to him and took it away, not as a lesson, but because he wanted to contest Satan. A selfish reason, if you ask me. And because of his blind faith, Job couldn't even see that God had taken everything away from him for selfish reasons.

One little lesson about the bible: There are many different ways that the bible could be translated into english. each translation can cause a different feeling. it is how words are put together that causes different understandings.

Oh, and why is that? Does that mean there's also more than one way of translating a passage of Latin from Cicero? If that's so, I'd have to say that Cicero makes his point more clearly and better than any of those bible writers do. As do all the other classical Latin writers.

That's still no excuse for either the poor writing or ambiguity in the bible. Just because I'm not Christian doesn't make your interpretation any more valid than either the Catholic's, the Pentacostal's, the Protestant's, the Baptist's, or my interpretation.

 

[Gaaramaster]

I'm jewish and I have free will. I just choose to belive in God. I belive in Science too, but I belive God made science.

 

[der Astronom]

I don't believe God made science because it is a largely human concept, and much of what is developed in science does not have anything to do with God. In fact, God is pretty much left out of the realms of science.

 

[DKnight]

ah but where does inspiration come from I wonder. why are we the only ones intelligent and equiped enough in this world to come up with the technology that we have.

no one said that you are punished for not believing in God. in fact it says that that is ok. But to believe in him and hate him is a different thing. wouldn't you find it strange to see someone walking down the street saying God is evil.

You said you have not heard of any story where God hurt someone and they became famous. have you ever heard of any of the prophets, the story of Job, any of the Saints, people who have gone through stigmata, those with cancer, anyone in the special olympics. it's those people that help others become better people, and understand who the are supposed to be.

And you say

I choose not to focus my life morals around the bible because it's too confusing, and it's a waste of my time. I enjoy things as I see them. I don't need any other perspective of them except what I see in them. I live life fine without your God, and I will continue doing so.
Even after a long time, nothing will cause me to lose my mind and reasoning to turn to blind faith. Don't expect it will work anytime soon. I'd expect no one of faith would want to lose it either.

if this is true then why is it you continue to persue this. you say "it's too confusing, and a waste of time," to try and understand the bible, or even religion for that matter, so why do you fight it so.


now for something a little off topic.
I once read a funny little grave stone somewhere that read: "here lies and atheist. all dress up but nowhere to go."

 

[der Astronom]

ah but where does inspiration come from I wonder. why are we the only ones intelligent and equiped enough in this world to come up with the technology that we have.

If you wanted me to say religion or God, then you are wrong. Inspiration can come from real things that we see everyday. That could be people, certain situations, movies, books, and all kinds of other things you see and hear about that you're not limited to what's strictly written in the bible. As for the question of why we're supposedly so intelligent and able to figure out our own beginnings, despite segways like myths and religious texts to divert our real search, we have found so far that our brains are unlike a lot of animals. And it's not because we were created that way; we became that way because of evolution and generations and generations of natural selection (and several other things, including bipedalism). But as for evolution, I digress.
Science exists because men have the claim to inquiry when they see things in real life and ask how it works, and begin to figure things out in the real world, rather than relying on a short sighted book that was possibly made up. Curiosity practically breeds science.

no one said that you are punished for not believing in God. in fact it says that that is ok. But to believe in him and hate him is a different thing. wouldn't you find it strange to see someone walking down the street saying God is evil.

Then why is there an entire set of commandments bent on having us worship God, and only God, and that if we worship other idols, we receive punishment? I don't think it's strange to see someone saying that God is evil. Anyone who has read at least the Old Testament with an unbiased mind will say that.

You said you have not heard of any story where God hurt someone and they became famous. have you ever heard of any of the prophets, the story of Job, any of the Saints, people who have gone through stigmata, those with cancer, anyone in the special olympics. it's those people that help others become better people, and understand who the are supposed to be.

Well good for them, but saints choosing to hurt themselves or kill themselves don't help me understand how people get better, and Job giving up everything for God is just an example of blinded faith. The idea of God creating some people disabled is not because of the motivation they may be able to inspire, but from the idea that we're not all created equally. If it was just nature, and that by some shuffling of genes through procreation that disabilities and disformities occur, you can blame nature, but that's just a property of the universe, and can't be attributed for much blame, because it's not conscious, and about as pointless as blaming a rock for sitting in the grass. But your God chooses to make us unequal, and not everyone benefits from it. Some disabled people may be praised for making it to the special olympics, but others are pitied and picked on. It's really a double edged sword.

And you say


if this is true then why is it you continue to persue this. you say "it's too confusing, and a waste of time," to try and understand the bible, or even religion for that matter, so why do you fight it so.

I'm reading the bible from my own interpretation, possibly a literal one because it's the simplest one that makes the most sense to me. But on the otherhand, it's confusing because it's ambiguous, and most Christian opponents like to argue from the viewpoint of treating texts as metaphors rather than a literal interpretation. Which lies in the problem that we don't agree because we don't have the same interpretation, and neither of us should know the correct one. In other words, it's too confusing to be taken seriously, and from the viewpoint that I see it from, it's not worth reading or trusting. We just started this over the argument of the bible beign sexist, as far as I can see, I gave my viewpoint, and you decided to post rebuttals. So that's why I'm still responding.
I guess it's only fair to say that no one really understands the bible.

now for something a little off topic.
I once read a funny little grave stone somewhere that read: "here lies and atheist. all dress up but nowhere to go."

I think I'd prefer not to be in heaven where your God is breathing down my neck, making sure that I'm worshipping him every second of my afterlife. And if I'm not, he'll kick me out.

 

[DKnight]

you some of the most scientific minds were really religious. Einstien was a devout Jew.

And if you ever read the Gospels the Ten comandment were exchanged for only two. Love others as you love yourself and love God above anything else. has nothing to do with anything, all it is asking for is love.
But saint and prophets did not inflict any injury upon them selves. they went out to preach the word to people who did not want to hear that anything was wrong with them so they beat and murdered the prophets and saints. And only in Death were there words heard by the masses and understood.
And you read the bible and only read what each word literally means. It is a book of stories. You can never understand any story if you only look at anything that way. That is why in any good English class they teach you to analyze what you have read for a much deaper message.

And yes I have been commenting on each of your view points. but it's hardly to try and change your mind. I do it, so maybe you just might open your mind to understand what others see. You have your oppinion and I have mine, but to automatically throw something in the trash, just because you do not understand it like everyone else does is not the right thing to do. You can go up to almost any other Christian, and show or tell them what I have said here, and many may not agree with me. That is because I have my own veiw point of things. One that I have created myself. I have shared what I have come up with, with only a small number of people I know, andeven fewer understood what I have said. I am no prophet rying to convert people, I am just a man that tries to create understanding.

You take my word and say how they are wrong, while I have only taken yours, and said how it is seen in my eyes. I know that many christians believe in male dominance, because of what they read in the bible, but an even bigger majority of them think otherwise. So how can you say that Christians are sexist against women when many of them are women that have power in the word.