Rinoa Rant

[StarGirl87]

Good for you, have a close best friend who feels the same. She likes Squall. Did say above that we should carry this on via pm before the mods see this as a fight...

Well it's a forum and the topic is about Rinoa/FF8, I'd prefer the work we put into our posts be shown on here. Just be civil about it.

Know it's hard to read how people are feeling online unless they emoticon it out..
But the way that you wrote it..

I just guessed "was it childbirth"?, I don't think it's very common for people to have a moment where they're screaming in pain holding someone's hand. Where as so many girls are having babies. I couldn't really have used smilies to change how you interpreted it. Sounded like you were twisting things I said to make it seem like I disrespected women. No one else would have taken it that seriously.

Because believe in the strength of the woman gender believe that we can be stronger..
Anything wrong ?

Like I said I don't believe expressing your emotions makes you weaker, strength is shown in many different ways.

If anything, sometimes it takes a stronger person to say how they really feel. I find it so annoying sometimes when people are too shy to say what they want, lie or just don't want to say something that's obviously bothering them.

Just because someone puts on a tough show, doesn't mean they're really strong.

No because know that there is Friends and Family out there okay maybe in Rinoa's case where she had no Mother or Dad.. But she had the group for support and to care for her..
Is Romantic actually, because love holding hand by hand by walking on the beach on a moonlight stroll- and sitting by each others side while watching fireworks.. and dancing Balls.... See you can be romantic without the " Knight in Shinning amour " Vision..

Yeah family/friends too of course, but there's something special/romantic about being saved by your lover, knowing he'll protect you. In any situation no matter how big or small. Rinoa didn't really have a family she could turn to like you said. She had support, just like Yuna did with Tidus and her friends.

Isn't more opinions and views the fact that you like Rinoa and I don't. Saying Facts is kind of like almost saying 'Rinoa rules " and anybody who disagrees is wrong.. xD

Sorry but - we can't come in here and dislike a character ? Your defending her because you like her character and you believe that your "Facts " are correct. You and Aqua only view it as a insult because you like Rinoa, but honestly it's just a different opinion. And seeing her as a good character is from a Rinoa fan point of view..

No your saying more than just "I don't like Rinoa" and your reasons for that are not true. We're just defending her. Just as how some might argue Squall is 'emo', there would be a lot of people who disagreed with that as they don't like the insults he keeps receiving. We've given actual quotes from her that show she is strong too, and a good character.

Well if you prefer or like one over the other- than then you might feel like one is better than the other. But yes they are totally different characters and they all have totally different personalities, but used them for examples because felt like they were able to handle the rough moments more mentally stronger than Rinoa does..

I just don't feel it's right to say someone is weak because they're scared or show their emotions. I like Yuna a lot too.

In any case, you haven't really given good examples of how Rinoa was mentally weak. As you can see from our quotes, she clearly handled becoming a sorceress well. She didn't whine or rant about that now did she? Most people wouldn't be able to handle that.

Squall: You were...part of a resistance movement in Timber, right? Unlike others who were all talk, you took to your weapons and fought... And now you're saying all this? What happened to you?


Rinoa: I guess... I'm getting scared. Sometimes... when I'm with all of you... I... feel like we're on the same wavelength...... you know? But when the battles start happening, it's different. Everyone's tempo seems to pick up and...... I get left behind. I try to catch up, but it's no use... How far is everyone going? I can't hear anyone... Once I catch up, I wonder... Is everyone safe? Will they welcome me with open arms? ...... Is everyone ok? Will we all make it back together? When I start thinking like that...

Rinoa joined a Rebel group just must of known that she was going to end up in War or least Jail.. So don't you think saying something like that is a tad over dramatic ?

Irvine: Alright, alright...! I said I was sorry. That's why I'm here to help!
Rinoa: After I scratched you to death.

Another reason why dislike Rinoa- because of Irvine she didn't have to go home through her Fathers car which she would of hated or even walk home. And then she pushes Irvine down stairs when re-meeting Squall and co in Prison ? Pushing somebody down stairs.. ? It seems... so ungrateful..

SeeD are an elite mercenary force, they were supposed to be a lot stronger. They couldn't have Rinoa suddenly be as good as them and handle things as well. She's not a soldier, even if she was part of a rebel group. I don't think she knew she was going to end up in a War.

Even that quote shows how kind and caring she is. "Is everyone safe?", "Is everyone ok? Will we all make it back together?" She doesn't just think about herself, she cares about her friends too.

Rinoa didn't have to go back to save them either, and it's a good thing she did because if it wasn't for her pushing Irvine to go back the others would have been in a lot of trouble. Irvine wouldn't have gone back otherwise. Her pushing him down the stairs was more comic relief, I found it funny.

.. Pretty damn Squall really needed those breaks rather than playing Tour Guide..
Let the dude sleep/ take a rest/ recover.. he likes thinking things through..

She just wanted to have some fun and to do something, she was in a new place. When they were in Balamb Garden it seems Squall spent most of his time resting and thinking. Yes I'd find it annoying to be disrupted but it's much better to be doing other things. Rinoa wanted him to do something other than think and hang out with her. If anything that's a good thing.

Also, this is what she said after one of the quotes you gave:

Rinoa: That was a guided tour! This time, it's a walk.

Squall: Just go by yourself. It's safe here.

Rinoa: It's not what I want a guard with me. You know... You're always too deep in thought. Why don't you lighten up a little? It's not good to think much. What I'm trying to say is... It would be my honor... to have your company, your highness, in hope that I may get your mind off things. How about it, your highness?

She knows it's not good to think too much and to be on your own. She was helping him out. I guess to some that might make her seem really annoying, but really she was just a nice and caring person.

There is more to this world than just trying to get a boyfriend. Squall was attractive yes but do remember how cold he was to Rinoa and the rest sometimes ? Rinoa was lucky that she had the right personality to change Squall. If she was any different Squall would of hurt her and he did anyways at the start of the game..

Rinoa: You were all hired. It's not like you were one of us.
Rinoa: Um, let's see... We'll cancel the plan, and we'll disperse for now.
Rinoa: We don't stand a chance if we take 'em head on, right?
Rinoa: So... you guys probably think this is all a game to us.
Rinoa: ...Well, it's not!
Rinoa: We're serious.
Rinoa: So serious...it hurts.

It's not wise to try and charm over a man just for his looks and shallow..

I know there is, don't take that part so seriously anyway. I'm not shallow at all. Just saying if you really liked a guy it's normal to want to get their attention.

Yeah if Rinoa had a different personality she wouldn't have been able to change Squall. Look at what happened with Quistis. She thought she was in love with him and Squall was really cold to her. She couldn't do anything to change him.

If she didn't want look weak then she wouldn't of admitted to everybody that she was feeling weak.. xD

That's not looking weak. Even if she didn't feel as strong as the others or able to handle battles as well, that doesn't make her a bad character. She still fought didn't she?

Rinoa: I can fight if I'm with you! That's why I'm here!

That's was more for Aqua- she said that Yuna was emotional throughout her adventure.
Fair enough but we don't know really that Rinoa did cry because of the graphics..

I'm saying that it's annoying for Rinoa to rant quite a bit and put her emotions on to everybody else in her group. It would only be hypocritical if said that it's not annoying to cry.. Feel like created Rinoa's character like a damsel because they always made her the one that had to be saved...

But you guys are saying that it is.. weak to cry.. ??

You said 'you guys', so you were referring to me too.

If they wanted to make Rinoa cry, they would have been able to. In the FMV's, or by text. Even in space, there were a few FMV sequences, she didn't look that distressed or in tears - which most people would have been in.

Righty- ho- then read up above and enjoy the quotes that have posted this time round.
=p

Those quotes don't show her as you describe at all though.

I guess some people only see characters at face value. They don't see the good or inner strength because at times they showed what they see as 'weaknesses', which normal people do. No one's strong with everything.

Just because she's not 'in your face' tough, aggressive, fierce, etc like the character Lightning looks to be I suppose, doesn't make her weak or a bad female lead. With characters like that, it seems you can't really do much with them. There's not so much to them other than that tough side. Like Paine in FFX-2 for instance.

Rinoa's a good role model because...

She's kind and caring
Expresses how she feels
Is fun and lively
Stands up for what she thinks is right
Is determined and ambitious
Never gives up no matter how tough it got and felt for her
Handled becoming a sorceress well and showed she was strong
Is normal too - shows she needs help sometimes, gets scared, upset, angry and makes mistakes
Girls can relate to her better

 

[Saints&Storms]

Yuna had alot of pressure put on her shoulders and she only cried once Yuna had pressure from her guardians and the world basically from the end to the beginning to the journey. Rinoa may of gained pressure when she became a sorceress but she had her friends to support her and Squall.. Yuna had nobody and she couldn't run too.. because she worried that she would look like a bad summoner in front of her guardians..

Heh maybe it was done in a comic relief style but it doesn't mean that Zell didn't get in trouble and got saved by Squall..

Did you watch the fight between her in loz ? Tifa defended herself and Marlene by fighting him . Tifa won but I'm so sorry that Loz was a cheating scum... Tifa was strong and Loz had to resort to cheating to knock her out.. >_>

At least Tifa fought and because of that reason AC Tifa isn't really a step backwards..
They way that your saying it is that Tifa hid at the back of the church and just basically waited for Loz to knock her out.. which she didn't..

I love Yuna but isnt her NOT opening up because she'd look bad her own fault? Isn't that her pride getting in the way?

No I suppose he still did get saved.

Loz used his strength to defeat her likewise she was him, He was stronger than her period, That and she had to play damsel for Cloud to come How exactly did Loz Cheat?!?! XD

She definitely didn't get back up and fight some more, you know why didn't she use the strength she had to get up and say Marlene and pass out again? She was waiting to be saved as usual. Rinoa has fought to but failed as Tifa had. Stop putting words in my mouth I never said she waited there to be KO'd.

Sooo..... when Rinoa spoke to Squall on the Rangnork airship that she just wanted time to stand still and she was worried about what was going to happen in the future.. she was just joking and having a couple of shits and giggles with Squall.. ?
xD

Rinoa: I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I
just want to stay here with you...

Is this what your talking about because she was going to be taken away after they got home and said this to be together with squall a little longer she never said it out of worry of what would happen.
She just wanted more time with her Loved One. I for one didn't EVER see the words "I'm worried" just an FYI "I'm scared" and "I'm Worried" don't translate.

Wouldn't count as a Risk but more trying to be somebody that she wasn't .. she did that because she wanted to be SeeD like.. not to mention Garnet went through shit and really horrible events and you know what- no matter what pain she went through- no matter what village she saw got destoryed- no matter what Friends or Family she saw die..

Garnet didn't give up and she kept on moving... she didn have a moment where she fell into a mental depression but that is realistic and you could say that not all woman are like Yuna and kept their emotions in but you can't say that gaining depression isn't real.. Even then she doesn't let the depression keep her down for long and then she gets even Stronger.. name one event in Final Fantasy VIII where Rinoa doesn't let the bad crap in her life take over her .. [ After the Parade addicent.. ] >_>

Either way her "Trying to be what she was not" and her "trying to grow stronger" Either one was her attempt to be a stronger person. If a strong person isn't what she is it doesn't mean she should sit and whine about it.

Rinoa was kidnapped by her ex-boyfriend fed to a sorceress and watched Squall get stabbed [You can't exempt that] Not enough shit? Oh yeah she was turned into a sorceress and thought she would be locked away.

Did Rinoa fall into a "Depression"? Nope. Oh lemme see when she goes off to the Sorceress memorial. And I'd say that's the most important.

It was oblivious that Yuna was keeping her feelings within her.. you don't need a stick and photos and quotes to proof that out do you.. ??

That's what Forums are for Aqua to share your opinions on something.. read the Squall is a Jerk topic or something among those lines. If somebody doesn't like Rinoa then don't bash them up for it.. Because there is likers and haters.. and God Forbid if somebody ever dislikes Rinoa Heartilly.. >__>

She obviously talked to Lulu her best friend, and possible Kimarhi. So yeah I would need proof to say she bottled it all up.

Yeah but at least dislike her for actually existent reasons or at least some that are plausible, might as well say "I don't like her cuz I don't". Yes there are likers and haters, and there are likers with real reason for liking and dislike-ers likewise.

Again Loz CHEATED.. and Barret was saved by Cid during that battle as well.. Okay so trying to protect somebody who is like a son to her is doing crap all and not doing anything.. ?? umm.. okay.. Rrigghht..

Okay At Least she stood up to Scarlet and defended herself.. What would Rinoa would of done. ?. " Scarlet you shouldn't hurt me because I've been gassed and my lungs are about to choke and I miss Cloud so much, my heart is acting.. " ?? xxD

Scarlet would of pushed Rinoa over the other side of the cannon and would of laughed sadistically..

She continuously got saved in the end though, yes Tifa did TRY to protect Denzel but Rinoa TRIED to be strong, aren't they the same things? why don't the rules for Tifa stand for Rinoa?

Sorry Rinoa would most definitely have defended herself XD Funny heres you spewing more nonsensical negativity. Has Rinoa done such a thing before Kai? I think not.

How do you know when FF XIII hasn't been brought out into stores yet.. : ?
Tifa cried because her Father died she lost a parent/ slaughted right in front of her eyes..
How do we know when the graphics are ten years old.. ? Rinoa could of cried and how come crying automatically makes somebody weak now ? It's okay to rant about your feelings but it's not okay to cry ? You guys are saying that humans are not like robots..
But you guys are saying that it is.. weak to cry.. ??

How do you know shes tough at all? How do you know she doesn't take 'Crap'? Well earlier you said Whiny so....
Really now its a "What if" thing?
Tifa also crys for her sins or something like that in MoTP and she cries in CoT.
You said Rinoa failed because she was "Whiny" I count crying all the time as 'Whiny', Aerith was going to die and she never cried as much as Tifa.

ORLY ? So just copying and pasting Rinoa quotes from FF Wiki makes your proof totally solid and mine not huh ??

I don't use such Crap as FFWIKI try I play the game and read the script. Well...Yes. since youa aren't backing what you say and are accusing Rinoa of.

 

[StarGirl87]

Rinoa was kidnapped by her ex-boyfriend fed to a sorceress and watched Squall get stabbed [You can't exempt that] Not enough shit? Oh yeah she was turned into a sorceress and thought she would be locked away.

Not to mention she fell into a coma, almost died in space, was being controlled by a sorceress in another time, taken by Adel, lost in a time void, not knowing whether she was ever going to be with Squall, not knowing what was going to happen to her, etc, etc. She went through a lot too, it wasn't just Garnet.

I forgot to quote this one...

Sorry Rinoa would most definitely have defended herself XD Funny heres you spewing more nonsensical negativity. Has Rinoa done such a thing before Kai? I think not.

Exactly, whats to say she wouldn't have defended herself either? I'm sure she would have attacked her back too in that situation. You say she's a bad role model and a bad female lead, which is unfair and unjustifiable. You're just completely negative towards her without any true solid reasons.

If you said you didn't like Selphie because she was hyper, that's fine because she was and you can easily support that. If you say you didn't like Yuffie because she stole all the materia, that's fine too. But if you say you don't like someone and that they're a bad role model because they are weak, for reasons like being scared and needing help - that's bound to annoy some people.

When Rinoa was taken by Adel, she didn't whine about it at all. Quite a scary thing to have gone through!

She was brave going into Ultimecia's castle too.

Rinoa: We've come this far. She's gotta be here.

Irvine seemed more scared than her even.
When they defeated Ultimecia and they were all in a white time void, Rinoa didn't show she was scared then either. She was determined to look for Squall and go where they promised to find each other.

She didn't show she was scared all the time, or ranted constantly as you claim. She sounds pretty tough to me! Maybe not always, but she was still strong and became even stronger later on in the game. I don't think people are going to play the game and think "What a whining wimp she is!" if they do, then they need to realize not all people show they're tough all the time and are emotionless/quiet/reserved.

She's not as bad as some people make her out to be.

 

[.Tifa]

Well it's a forum and the topic is about Rinoa/FF8, I'd prefer the work we put into our posts be shown on here. Just be civil about it.

People's feelings and emotions can really get hurt in debates and trying to do the mature thing and take it somewhere were we could talk about it on a more personal level isn't civil ?

No one else would have taken it that seriously.

You don't know that when people all each have different emotions different personalities and we all each handle situations differently... some would laughed it off some would said "How did you know " ? some would even cried and stopped speaking here. People are different...

If anything, sometimes it takes a stronger person to say how they really feel. I find it so annoying sometimes when people are too shy to say what they want, lie or just don't want to say something that's obviously bothering them.

Reckon that it's stronger for a person that is shy and is un-confident to finally pick up the courage to express their feelings. When you express your feelings easily like Rinoa.
It's a personality trait- It's automatic. Respect Paine from X-2 alot because she was shy and damaged from her past. It would of taken alot of strength and effort to speak about her past and say how she was feeling towards Yuna and Rikku...

Rinoa didn't really have a family she could turn to like you said. She had support, just like Yuna did with Tidus and her friends.

But felt like she never really spent time to talk things through with Zell Irvine or Quitsy. Quistis was a very smart woman and her advice probably would of helped her heaps. But instead Rinoa just grabs onto Squall's arm. Squall when has enough on his plate already- he has Seifer's tratiorism on his mind, the fact that his friends could die he has kill the person who gave him a home and raised him since he was young and for some strange reason he keeps on falling into these weird dream state where he plays the role of a guy named "Laguna" and for a while he doesn' know why..

The only thing Rinoa asks for advice from Zell is to have a copy of Squall's ring..
Would probably would of respected Rinoa more if she sat down with Zell or Quisty and said " Okay I'm feeling worried after the parade and I did a huge mistake and etc.. "
Rather than leaching on to Squall's arm.

Rinoa liked to be open and express her feelings so why..?

No your saying more than just "I don't like Rinoa" and your reasons for that are not true. We're just defending her. Just as how some might argue Squall is 'emo', there would be a lot of people who disagreed with that as they don't like the insults he keeps receiving. We've given actual quotes from her that show she is strong too, and a good character.

Speaking of Squall are you defending him in the Squall is a Jerk thread ??
Have given Quotes this time. But Quotes can be looked at in different ways. A person could view what somebody is saying differently, so just because you and Aqua are using Quotes to explain your answers doesn't automatically make things right. Because somebody else could come along and see the Quotes that you and Aqua have used and see them in a different limelight..

In any case, you haven't really given good examples of how Rinoa was mentally weak.

The Quotes I've posted are not good enough ?

Even if she was part of a rebel group. I don't think she knew she was going to end up in a War.

She must of.. mean take the Train Junction change mission Squall did for them as a example. Mean she knew that she was taking risks and doing things that would make the government pretty angry. They wanted to harm president Deling.. The president..She must of known how much of a risk that was and could possibly become..

Even that quote shows how kind and caring she is. "Is everyone safe?", "Is everyone ok? Will we all make it back together?" She doesn't just think about herself, she cares about her friends too.

See ? You and Aqua are going to view the quotes written here in a different way a different limelight, this has just supported looking at quotes differently theory above..

Saw that quote in a way that she is struggling to keep up in battle and she is worried that she is going not keep up with Squall or the rest of the group..

Irvine wouldn't have gone back otherwise. Her pushing him down the stairs was more comic relief, I found it funny.

Irvine was trying to do what he thought was the right thing- following orders and try not to break the law anymore. He just met Squall and the rest and he grew up with a different education Squall and the others he could thought that Rinoa and him could get into danger. They could of been terrorists to him. Yes Irvine remembed the childhood but people change over time epsically from childhood. It must of been hard for Irvine to make that kind of decision. To leave his childhood friends in jail.. and your laughing at the fact that he got pushed down stairs ? Wouldn't call it comic relief. Would call it Rinoa being im-mature..

She knows it's not good to think too much and to be on your own. She was helping him out. I guess to some that might make her seem really annoying, but really she was just a nice and caring person.

Glad that Rinoa was thinking about him in a positive way and glad that Rinoa cared for his mental health.. did say before that one of the best things about Rinoa she that she supported other people and she tried/ wanted to bring out the best in them..

don't take that part so seriously anyway. I'm not shallow at all. Just saying if you really liked a guy it's normal to want to get their attention.

Yes.. it is normal to flirt... okay won't take that part seriously..

Yeah if Rinoa had a different personality she wouldn't have been able to change Squall. Look at what happened with Quistis. She thought she was in love with him and Squall was really cold to her. She couldn't do anything to change him.

Yes and when Quistis had enough courage to open out her heart to him Squall bashed her by telling her to go speak to a wall. That's why was worried about Rinoa's character because she was lucky and in reality if girls play this game [FF8] and believe that they can be like Rinoa and change a Fixer-Uper then everything will be magically fixed..

Did you know that Fixer- Uper men are one of the most dangerous men to date ?
Dated a Fixer- Uper and ended up being mentally abused and became his game..
Maybe dislike Rinoa because don't want people to go through the same experience..

That's not looking weak. Even if she didn't feel as strong as the others or able to handle battles as well, that doesn't make her a bad character. She still fought didn't she?

Rinoa: I can fight if I'm with you! That's why I'm here!

That was said in CD 1 during the Parade.. CD 1 Rinoa was a brave Independent Leader and even after a bad experience she still manages to have enough courage to battle Edea. The worlds most dangerous enemy .. but then CD 2... CD 3... It's like what Squall says..
" What happened to you Rinoa " ? xD

If they wanted to make Rinoa cry, they would have been able to. In the FMV's, or by text. Even in space, there were a few FMV sequences, she didn't look that distressed or in tears - which most people would have been in.

In Space Rinoa was almost half/ dead and in a coma like state almost. She was gasping for air. It would be hard to cry aaaand gasp for air. Anyway didn't you say before that crying makes a person stronger or whatever or crying doesn't make a person weak. ?
So even if Rinoa kept her tears in or had a moment where she was in tears.. it wouldn't of mattered. Actually would of preferd that Rinoa Did burst into tears, because then it would of told and showed the player more that- Okay Rinoa has been through alot and OK- she has been through alot of pain..

There's not so much to them other than that tough side. Like Paine in FFX-2 for instance.

Supported Paine X- 2 up above..

Girls can relate to her better

Like said before not all girls are going to relate to Rinoa because we are all different..
We don't all go around expressing our emotions freely like Rinoa does, if you are able to express your emotions well like Rinoa then feel lucky.. it's a personality trait that some would love to have..
But no woman/ people they are all different.. and we are not all going to relate...

She definitely didn't get back up and fight some more, you know why didn't she use the strength she had to get up and say Marlene and pass out again? She was waiting to be saved as usual

Because she was electrified from Loz's shock weapon. Stick a knife into a toaster and then try and see if you can still fight Aqua..>___>

Rinoa was kidnapped by her ex-boyfriend fed to a sorceress and watched Squall get stabbed [You can't exempt that] Not enough shit? Oh yeah she was turned into a sorceress and thought she would be locked away.

Did Rinoa fall into a "Depression"? Nope. Oh lemme see when she goes off to the Sorceress memorial. And I'd say that's the most important.

And Rosa didn't get abducted by Kain and Golbez and was tied to a chair for several days and if she moved her head would be chopped off by a scythe..? Rinoa knew the world but Lenna didn't- she stepped into a world she didn't know to try and get her Father back. Lenna even gives up her life twice to save a animal.. a dragon.. really respect that because not many people would give up everything for a animal..

Rosa and Lenna faced death and Lenna faced being poisoned twice they may of been damsels but Lenna didn't beg for Bartz's help not once and Rosa despite what happened to her she still begged Cecil to fight Zeromus with him.. Rinoa was unsure ..

You just answered your own question, yes Rinoa falls into a depressive state for a while.. after heading into the Sorceress memorial..

Rosa saw Cecil getting beaten up and almost killed by Kain btw.. Squall was stabbed yes but it was quick and shocking Rosa had to slowly watch somebody she saw as a close Friend get pummeled to the ground and she couldn't do anything about it..

Yeah but at least dislike her for actually existent reasons or at least some that are plausible, might as well say "I don't like her cuz I don't". Yes there are likers and haters, and there are likers with real reason for liking and dislike-ers likewise..

You know that's not true when have given quotes and have given examples why wasn't fond of Rinoa's character- more like prefer Rosa Yuna and Garnet over here kind of reasons. You can't say that somebody else opinions are wrong..

She continuously got saved in the end though, yes Tifa did TRY to protect Denzel but Rinoa TRIED to be strong, aren't they the same things? why don't the rules for Tifa stand for Rinoa?

Sorry Rinoa would most definitely have defended herself XD Funny heres you spewing more nonsensical negativity

So Tifa didn't TRY and be strong standing up to Loz ? At least she grabbed her gloves and took on the challenge. AC Tifa tried to be strong by protecting Denzel. Your the one that brought up AC Tifa you know.. how can I be spewing more negativity when your the one that brought AC Tifa and mentioned how weak she was for *playing * Damsel ?

Tifa also crys for her sins or something like that in MoTP and she cries in CoT.
You said Rinoa failed because she was "Whiny" I count crying all the time as 'Whiny'

Didn't you and Stargirl say before that crying doesn't make somebody weak and now crying makes somebody whiny ? Changed minds huh ?
Tifa lost her Father in front of her eyes and then later she was stabbed by psychopath..
So what if she cries now and again ? Give the girl a break...

..Yes. since youa aren't backing what you say and are accusing Rinoa of.

.. So the quotes I just posted were imagined ??

Not to mention she fell into a coma, almost died in space, was being controlled by a sorceress in another time, taken by Adel, lost in a time void, not knowing whether she was ever going to be with Squall, not knowing what was going to happen to her, etc, etc. She went through a lot too, it wasn't just Garnet.

^ Read the Rosa and Lenna examples up above..

Exactly, whats to say she wouldn't have defended herself either? I'm sure she would have attacked her back too in that situation. You say she's a bad role model and a bad female lead, which is unfair and unjustifiable. You're just completely negative towards her without any true solid reasons.

.. Really....... honestly.. did the quotes I posted for proof yesterday.. can only special people see them ? Like the Emperors new clothes.. ?? Because is darn sure posted quotes for reasons why wasn't fond of Rinoa's character yesterday like you and Aqua begged and asked for, or maybe is just tripping..

If you said you didn't like Selphie because she was hyper, that's fine because she was and you can easily support that. If you say you didn't like Yuffie because she stole all the materia, that's fine too. But if you say you don't like someone and that they're a bad role model because they are weak, for reasons like being scared and needing help - that's bound to annoy some people.

So basically it's fine to dislike Selphie and Yuffie because they are ''annoying " but you can't explain why dislike somebody because you feel like she is too hard on the main character of the story and she pushes somebody down stairs after helping her..
Yes she goes through alot of pain and feel sorry towards her because of that..
Don't find people begging for help annoying, as said before you can't say things when you don't even know me... did you know that I love helping others and is becoming a psychologist ?? xD

Irvine seemed more scared than her even.
When they defeated Ultimecia and they were all in a white time void, Rinoa didn't show she was scared then either. She was determined to look for Squall and go where they promised to find each other.

Proof please that Irvine was more scared of Ulitmeca than Rinoa..
Rinoa was a positive- thinker and she believed that Squall were going to met in the promised area- kiss/ hug = head home..
Know thinking about this Rinoa did cry- pretty sure she started to cry when she thought that Squall was dead, but that isn't a hate rinoa comment because hating somebody who cried over somebody's death would be pretty cold..

I don't think people are going to play the game and think "What a whining wimp she is!" if they do, then they need to realize not all people show they're tough all the time and are emotionless/quiet/reserved.

The reality is that- somebody people are going to play through Final Fantasy VIII and think that way, some people do already. They dislike Rinoa because *they * believe that she whines alot.. okay um.... quiet/ reserved people CAN be tough.. Vivi from Final Fantasy IX proves that to the max.. plus what's wrong with quiet reserved people ? Squall was reserved and Yuna was quiet..

[Okay Good Things about Rinoa]
:- She is a caring supporter and she tries to bring out the best in others
:- She is confident to ask Squall for a dance, most would shy away or would beg for friends to ask him to dance..
:- She tries at once stage to free Timber from the Governments Iron Fist..
:- She has a pet Dog =p
:- She wants Squall to open up and become a better person and she does that..

[Things I dislike about Rinoa]
:- Feel like she is way too forceful on Squall and even treats him like a child sometimes..
:- She is open about her feelings and not everybody likes open people... because they just dislike hearing about people's emotions..
:- Pushes Irvine down stairs after him trying to help her..
:- Feel like she puts more pressure on Squall yes- she does go through alot of pain.
But Zell was there- he would of loved to help her- there was Selphie- Quistis..
Even Dr Kadowaki who she had a good friend relationship with..
:- Sometimes you can't change somebody and she sends the message across that you can change even the most hurt/ heartbroken people and in reality.. that's rare..
Your more likely to end up like Quistis.... hurt.. xD

But really people usually have a deeper reason why they dislike somebody.. whether the character reminds them of something bad that occurred in their past or the character reminds them of something they regret and that is probably the true reason why isn't true fond of Rinoa's character because had a relationship with somebody who needed a little fixing and it didn't end up as all "Sunshine and Rainbows "... usually people have a deeper reason why they dislike somebody mean have a Friend who dislikes Laguna because Laguna reminds him of himself..
Or somebody dislikes somebody because their personality rubs them the wrong way..
And really can't handle Rinoa being so open, because is kind of like Squall and would rather not hear it unless somebody is need of desperate help or attention...

 

[Saints&Storms]

Because she was electrified from Loz's shock weapon. Stick a knife into a toaster and then try and see if you can still fight Aqua..>___>

What say thats one of his powers same as TIfa's fists are to her, Its not cheating so when she's up against some one who decides not to just use fist to match her its cheating? XD

And Rosa didn't get abducted by Kain and Golbez and was tied to a chair for several days and if she moved her head would be chopped off by a scythe..? Rinoa knew the world but Lenna didn't- she stepped into a world she didn't know to try and get her Father back. Lenna even gives up her life twice to save a animal.. a dragon.. really respect that because not many people would give up everything for a animal..

Rosa and Lenna faced death and Lenna faced being poisoned twice they may of been damsels but Lenna didn't beg for Bartz's help not once and Rosa despite what happened to her she still begged Cecil to fight Zeromus with him.. Rinoa was unsure ..

You just answered your own question, yes Rinoa falls into a depressive state for a while.. after heading into the Sorceress memorial..

Rosa saw Cecil getting beaten up and almost killed by Kain btw.. Squall was stabbed yes but it was quick and shocking Rosa had to slowly watch somebody she saw as a close Friend get pummeled to the ground and she couldn't do anything about it..

Did I say anything about a Scythe?!?! No I didn't, stop saying random things. How did Rinoa know the world she was getting into, I'm sure she's never knew she'd be kidnapped by her boyfirend and turned into a sorceress, Rinoa was doing what she did to free a town from Galbadian soldiers she was practically giving herself to help them.

When? When did Rinoa beg for help or protection? No she doesn't have time to be in depression, she's taken there and then they quickly prepare to lock her away.

Rinoa had to watch her first love be manipulated and used to the will of an evil sorceress, and she had to watch him be defeated by her friends. Then she almost lost her life in space.

You know that's not true when have given quotes and have given examples why wasn't fond of Rinoa's character- more like prefer Rosa Yuna and Garnet over here kind of reasons. You can't say that somebody else opinions are wrong..

Then THIS thread is pointless its been said:

If you feel like you agree/ disagree on this please speak up/ share your views :3
[ Especially you Rinoa lovers/ Haters out there ]

I'm coming here and steering things in the right direction, what I say isn't MY OPINION its the facts. and you can't call a character whiny when they clearly aren't.

So Tifa didn't TRY and be strong standing up to Loz ? At least she grabbed her gloves and took on the challenge. AC Tifa tried to be strong by protecting Denzel. Your the one that brought up AC Tifa you know.. how can I be spewing more negativity when your the one that brought AC Tifa and mentioned how weak she was for *playing * Damsel ?

SO Rinoa didn't TRY to defeat the sorceress in the parade or is it just not good enough for you? at leats she went up there and TRIED instead of letting her feelings for Squall get in the way as Quistis had.

I find it most effective to use the situation someone can't understand against them. By using a character that was stated as more than Rinoa in the first post I could get people to see that they are letting there own biased opinion take over and call things that aren't true.

Didn't you and Stargirl say before that crying doesn't make somebody weak and now crying makes somebody whiny ? Changed minds huh ?
Tifa lost her Father in front of her eyes and then later she was stabbed by psychopath..
So what if she cries now and again ? Give the girl a break...

Exactly see how your own "Facts" for hating Rinoa bite you in the ass? I didn't change my mind, its why one crys that makes them weak. She didn't watch her dad die she found him, and then TRIED to fight Sephiroth again resulting in her being saved or hurt because she wanted the "Famous-Soldier" to save her. Is that not begging to be protected enough?

You haven't given Rinoa a break? Apparently everything she does is made of Fail.

.. So the quotes I just posted were imagined ??

I'm sorry but where did you post quotes to back everything you've been saying?

Rinoa: Come on, get up. Let's go.
Squall: Go where?
Rinoa: Give me a tour of the Garden.
Squall: ...Is this another one of your orders?
Rinoa: No. I just want you to show me around. You know, to get acquainted with the place. Please?

Rinoa: Oh, you're just a great leader, aren't you...
Rinoa: Do you actually have fun acting so callous to your comrades?

Rinoa: What about over there?
Squall: The parking lot.
Rinoa: Squall... I really appreciate you showing me around.
Rinoa: But can you try to make it a little more fun? You know, like a normal tour?

Rinoa: Hey, let's go for a walk.
Squall: Again?
Rinoa: That was a guided tour! This time, it's a walk.

.. Pretty damn Squall really needed those breaks rather than playing Tour Guide..
Let the dude sleep/ take a rest/ recover.. he likes thinking things through..

This this doesn't prove that she begs for help, is whiny, Cries about the future, is always worried about 'herself' and is not strong nor brave? and always has to be saved by squall and says "you shouldn't hit me cuz you shouldn't" This quote you ahve posted and the other prove nothing.

This quote proves that she was interested romantically in Squall other than that...NO Cigar.

[Things I dislike about Rinoa]
:- Feel like she is way too forceful on Squall and even treats him like a child sometimes..
:- She is open about her feelings and not everybody likes open people... because they just dislike hearing about people's emotions..
:- Pushes Irvine down stairs after him trying to help her..
:- Feel like she puts more pressure on Squall yes- she does go through alot of pain.
But Zell was there- he would of loved to help her- there was Selphie- Quistis..
Even Dr Kadowaki who she had a good friend relationship with..
:- Sometimes you can't change somebody and she sends the message across that you can change even the most hurt/ heartbroken people and in reality.. that's rare..
Your more likely to end up like Quistis.... hurt.. xD

-So you wanted Squall with Quistis? When does Rinoa treat him like a child?
-So damn her for having feelings then
-Irvine tried to leave the rest of the firends behind incase you missed that one, I think he had it coming not to mention...It was Comic relief.
-SO basically because she loves Squall you hate her? She talks to Squall most because she loved him. Zell yeah she could have talked to him, Quistis probably wouls have screamed at her [Like the parade]
- She changed Squall no not changed...SHe helped him you can't change someone and I don't think she said that, but you most certainly CAN help them. How was Quistis hurt? She realized she felt like a Sister to Squall its not like he turned her down?

 

[The Witch]

Look, it's all very simply.

It's Rinoa's fault she isn't a She-woman, with arms that could scare Chuck Noris and an attitude that could make the Hulk look like a cuddly kitten.

 

[.Tifa]

.. This is nutty trying to debate against two people..xD

Its not cheating so when she's up against some one who decides not to just use fist to match her its cheating? XD

<- Tifa wins battle/ Victory Cheer plays on Cellphone

<- Loz comes from Tifa's back after the battle is over

Then-

http://www.unlimitedgamer.net/image.php?id=coverage/ff7ac/images/ff7_advent_children_0493.jpg

And Then-

http://www.unlimitedgamer.net/image.php?id=coverage/ff7ac/images/ff7_advent_children_0506.jpg

Please explain how that isn't cheating Aqua
When A] The battle was over before Loz shocked her
B] It was a surprise attack when Tifa didn't expect
C] She was unable to move after the attack was done..

Do you really believe that Tifa is so darn low and cold that she would let Marlene get kidnapped by Loz- One of her friends [ Barret's ] adopted child be kidnapped so she could lay in the grass and wait for Cloud to hold her in her arms ??

http://www.unlimitedgamer.net/image.php?id=coverage/ff7ac/images/ff7_advent_children_0496.jpg

^ That's a picture of Tifa struggling to get up after Loz has shocked her...

Did I say anything about a Scythe?!?! No I didn't, stop saying random things. How did Rinoa know the world she was getting into, I'm sure she's never knew she'd be kidnapped by her boyfirend and turned into a sorceress, Rinoa was doing what she did to free a town from Galbadian soldiers she was practically giving herself to help them.

Nope ! But you said that Rinoa goes through alot of pain and she goes through alot of pain seeing Squall being stabbed by Ice and was saying that Rosa and Lenna go through alot of pain too. It's not random, how it can be random when it happens ?
No - your right because Rinoa didn't have clairvoyant powers..

What meant was that Lenna was a princess she would of have to stay inside her castle and never see the world Lenna had no idea what the world was going to be like. Rinoa knew that she was doing a risky job being apart of a rebel group..

When? When did Rinoa beg for help or protection?

Airstation
"Respond, Ragnarok!"

Rinoa
"Nobody would want to be around me anymore..."

Airstation
"The sorceress will be seized upon arrival. Be sure to follow the crews instructions."

Rinoa
"I'm...scared."

Airstation
"Squall, do you copy? Is the sorceress listening, too?"

Rinoa
"I'm scared, Squall."

Rinoa
"I don't wanna go back."

^ This is quoted on the Rangnork is she is begging for Squall's help/ aid before heading to the memorial...
​

I'm coming here and steering things in the right direction, what I say isn't MY OPINION its the facts. and you can't call a character whiny when they clearly aren't.

No your trying to support a character that you like and support her from those who dislike her character. So it's a fact that everybody should like Rinoa and anybody who doesn't like her character is just lying ? It is your opinion Aqua. Like said before you either like Rinoa or you don't..

It's not nice to say that whoever doesn't like Rinoa Heartilly's character is not right and whoever likes Rinoa is stating the truth. That's not giving people a fair chance.. you don't have to like a certian character.. you don't have like Rinoa Heartilly..

SO Rinoa didn't TRY to defeat the sorceress in the parade or is it just not good enough for you? at leats she went up there and TRIED instead of letting her feelings for Squall get in the way as Quistis had.

During the parade Quistis was the leader of the sewer mission, she was doing all different job all together. If Quistis was on the another team she would of tried to fight the sorceress because it would of been her job as a SeeD. But you can't say that Quistis didn't fight Edea because she was still hurt over Squall when it didn't happen in the game at all...

By using a character that was stated as more than Rinoa in the first post I could get people to see that they are letting there own biased opinion take over and call things that aren't true..

What's with the whole Rinoa- Dislikers- Don't speak the truth thing ? Just because we dislike the girl doesn't mean that we are lying on the reasons why we dislike her. Why would I make up crap about disliking Rinoa because was mentally abused twice by two different men and then Rinoa comes around does the same thing with Squall and all of a sudden everything is magical ? Why- Would- somebody- make- up- that ?? And my past in 2007 wasn't a lie..

She didn't watch her dad die she found him, and then TRIED to fight Sephiroth again resulting in her being saved or hurt because she wanted the "Famous-Soldier" to save her. Is that not begging to be protected enough?

It depends what version you watch btw- The Nibelheim addicent is always different..
But either way in what version she always get stabbed by Sephiroth and she always sees her Father dead.

So it's okay to have a romantic fantasy vision with Rinoa but not Tifa ? That addicent was just Tifa's dream coming true a reality .. she wished Cloud to save her when she was 12 and then she ends up trying to fight Sephiroth- a legendary Solider and then Cloud appears when she in injured and takes her to the side. That isn't Tifa playing Damsel again, that is Tifa's dream for Cloud to save her becoming a reality..

You haven't given Rinoa a break? Apparently everything she does is made of Fail.

So saying that she had a kind heart and that she is a supporting leader of friends is saying that she is made of fail ? xD

I'm sorry but where did you post quotes to back everything you've been saying?

Head back and read one of the posts where was replying to Stargirl one of the earlier ones. Mention one of the other reasons why didn't like Rinoa because she pushed Irvine down stairs and one of the reasons why I believe that Rinoa - rants alot..

This this doesn't prove that she begs for help, is whiny, Cries about the future, is always worried about 'herself' and is not strong nor brave? and always has to be saved by squall and says "you shouldn't hit me cuz you shouldn't" This quote you ahve posted and the other prove nothing.

Read up above about the Rangnork- it has proven that she does beg for help..when does she say shouldn't hit me because you shouldn't .. ?? um- okay, again what makes the quotes you have posted right and mine wrong ? -They are both from the same game, the same Final Fantasy VIII..

When does Rinoa treat him like a child?

Rinoa
"Squall..."
"Gosh, can't you just say 'yes' for fun?"
Rinoa
"You're so cute! Taking it seriously!"
Rinoa
"Yes, I know."
"You're just being dishonest again. It's so funny. I know that deep down inside you care about them."
Rinoa
"Yes, I know."
"You're just being dishonest again. It's so funny. I know that deep down inside you care about them."
Rinoa
"...Quistis was right on...Oh, you're so predictable."
Rinoa
"Fine...I guess I'll have to bug you for the rest of the night."
"And I'm gonna keep chanting 'concert, concert, concert' and drive you nuts."
"Is that what you want?"

-Irvine tried to leave the rest of the firends behind incase you missed that one, I think he had it coming not to mention...It was Comic relief.
-SO basically because she loves Squall you hate her? She talks to Squall most because she loved him. Zell yeah she could have talked to him, Quistis probably wouls have screamed at her [Like the parade]

No supported the reasons why Irvine left the group when was debating with StarGirl.
Quistis wasn't a screaming machine- in fact she was probably one of the most calmest and most intelligent people in the game after Squall Leonhart..

Quitstis hurt
" I gave up when Rinoa came into the picture.. "
[ Quistis runs towards the beach and stops speaking to Squall and the others ]

No even though believe that Rinoa is annoying sometimes believe that her and Squall make the best relationship over Selphie and/ or Quistis being with him because what said before with her supporting Squall and trying to bring out the best in him & etc..

Rinoa is okay character but Aqua- Stargirl saying that somebody doesn't have the right to dislike her because whatever reason and saying that whatever reasons they dislike somebody or whatever Quote they put on here isn't a fact like yours isn't right.. people have right to dislike somebody.. .Even if their reason for disliking Rinoa is stupid or poor they have a reason to dislike her and a right to dislike her, you guys have a right to like Rinoa and many others have a right to like Rinoa Heartilly for whatever reason. But I've never said that my reasons are fact and yours a false like you have said many times to me..

 

[The Witch]

I agree, with hating the stupid girl. But why you hate her isn't any real reason to hate her. Because she isn't any of what you claimed.

If you have no real reasons, just say you hate her because you do. Like what I say. I say I dislike Rinoa just because. I don't have to explain it to anyone. But I also don't have to make up reasons to allow myself to hate her.

You say she's all those bad things, yet there's no proof of her being any of that. Just say you dislike her and if people ask you why tell 'em to bugger off. And also, ALL FF lead females are exactly the frickin' same.

From the classic FF girls, to Tifa, Lightning, Yuna, and even Terra. They're all weak minded, "I can't protect myself", "Ahh, icky spider", half dressed, can't fight bitches.

So why are we just picking on Rinoa? Because why I ask? Because she's like the rest of the 13+ female leads in the FF world.

If anyone honestly thinks that ANY of the FF leading ladies are ANY different than each other, I highly suggest they replay the games a few times. They're the same character but with a different face (sometimes).

 

[StarGirl87]

I hope you can read fast.

People's feelings and emotions can really get hurt in debates and trying to do the mature thing and take it somewhere were we could talk about it on a more personal level isn't civil ?

No it's fine, but I'd rather just post here. I meant act civil as in not insulting each other, like how you made me out to be disrespectful to women in your other posts.

You don't know that when people all each have different emotions different personalities and we all each handle situations differently... some would laughed it off some would said "How did you know " ? some would even cried and stopped speaking here. People are different...

Yeah people would have reacted differently but not in a BAD way, that's just weird. All because I said one word? Childbirth? That's just ridiculous.

Reckon that it's stronger for a person that is shy and is un-confident to finally pick up the courage to express their feelings. When you express your feelings easily like Rinoa.
It's a personality trait- It's automatic.

Yes that's true, it takes a strong person who is shy to express their feelings. I'm very shy around strangers and people I'm not familiar with, yet sometimes when I'm feeling good and confident I find it easy to talk with them and I enjoy doing so. I think that takes a strong person to do that. I could have just not bothered making an effort.

That doesn't mean someone who finds it easy talking to people is weaker because they're naturally like that anyway. A lot of people don't like expressing their emotions because they're shy or scared what the other person will think, or they don't want to be the center of attention, have someone think badly of them or don't know what to say, etc. To me that's showing weakness, because you can't live like that and enjoy life as much if your scared of what people will think of you.

Even if a person is naturally that way, they're still human and they must be strong to be able to look past all that ^ and to be more open and expressive.

But felt like she never really spent time to talk things through with Zell Irvine or Quitsy. Quistis was a very smart woman and her advice probably would of helped her heaps. But instead Rinoa just grabs onto Squall's arm.

The only thing Rinoa asks for advice from Zell is to have a copy of Squall's ring..
Would probably would of respected Rinoa more if she sat down with Zell or Quisty and said " Okay I'm feeling worried after the parade and I did a huge mistake and etc.. "
Rather than leaching on to Squall's arm.

Rinoa liked to be open and express her feelings so why..?

Huh? Quistis didn't help her then, she got really angry with her. Rinoa DID ask them for their input/advice about what she wanted to do.

She always wanted help and advice from the others, that's why she expressed herself often.

I think she was upset too because she wanted to prove herself and failed, Quistis wasn't around at the time to apologize either. I'm sure she would have said something along the lines of "I'm sorry, you were right..." and Quisty would have apologized for the way she spoke to her too, that's what she wanted to do after all... Hmm do you not think Quistis was stupid for going back in the middle of an important mission just to apologize to her? They all sure messed about during that parade, didn't they?

Speaking of Squall are you defending him in the Squall is a Jerk thread ??
Have given Quotes this time. But Quotes can be looked at in different ways. A person could view what somebody is saying differently, so just because you and Aqua are using Quotes to explain your answers doesn't automatically make things right. Because somebody else could come along and see the Quotes that you and Aqua have used and see them in a different limelight..

Yeah I am.

Yes quotes can be looked differently, but not by that much. What they're actually saying shows their character and what they're like. It's as right as you can get.

See ? You and Aqua are going to view the quotes written here in a different way a different limelight, this has just supported looking at quotes differently theory above..

Saw that quote in a way that she is struggling to keep up in battle and she is worried that she is going not keep up with Squall or the rest of the group..

No I did look at it that way too of course, I know that's what she was trying to say. I mentioned that earlier. What I was trying to say there was she's not just going on about herself, as you seem to think she's like. She could have said "Am I ok? Will I make it back?" It wasn't all me me me!

She must of.. mean take the Train Junction change mission Squall did for them as a example. Mean she knew that she was taking risks and doing things that would make the government pretty angry. They wanted to harm president Deling.. The president..She must of known how much of a risk that was and could possibly become..

Yeah that's why she hired SeeD, to help fight the battles. But she wanted to be as good as them too.

Irvine was trying to do what he thought was the right thing- following orders and try not to break the law anymore. He just met Squall and the rest and he grew up with a different education Squall and the others he could thought that Rinoa and him could get into danger. They could of been terrorists to him. Yes Irvine remembed the childhood but people change over time epsically from childhood. It must of been hard for Irvine to make that kind of decision. To leave his childhood friends in jail.. and your laughing at the fact that he got pushed down stairs ? Wouldn't call it comic relief. Would call it Rinoa being im-mature..

He could have just said the car broke down. No one else was with them so why not go back? Nothing ended up happening to Irvine anyway for not following the orders. He should have also known they'd be getting tortured and could die, if he cared about them he'd have gone back, and he did but if it hadn't had been for Rinoa he wouldn't have. He especially should have wanted to go back knowing who they all were. He still liked Selphie too.

Lighten up. It was funny the way she pushed him down the stairs saying "Stop trying to act so cool!" as he was showing off and posing. Wasn't like he was that hurt anyway.

The Quotes I've posted are not good enough ?

No because all they really show is Rinoa pursuing Squall and wanting his attention/to help him out, and feeling left behind in battles. They don't show her to be this whiny weak girl you think she is.

Glad that Rinoa was thinking about him in a positive way and glad that Rinoa cared for his mental health.. did say before that one of the best things about Rinoa she that she supported other people and she tried/ wanted to bring out the best in them..

Exactly, so why hate her?

Yes and when Quistis had enough courage to open out her heart to him Squall bashed her by telling her to go speak to a wall. That's why was worried about Rinoa's character because she was lucky and in reality if girls play this game [FF8] and believe that they can be like Rinoa and change a Fixer-Uper then everything will be magically fixed..

Did you know that Fixer- Uper men are one of the most dangerous men to date ?
Dated a Fixer- Uper and ended up being mentally abused and became his game..
Maybe dislike Rinoa because don't want people to go through the same experience..

Yeah Squall was a meanie, and very annoying/cold at times. (But I still really liked his character)

"Fixer upper", eh? Hmmm... I don't think she'd have been THAT hurt if he didn't bother with her or change though, they'd have still been friends or whatever. It's not like they actually had a romantic relationship until closer to the end of the game. She just really cared about him and wanted to improve his life, and it was lucky for her that Squall liked her too. You can't plan all things in case you get hurt. You should admire her for her dedication towards helping him. I doubt many people would have been strong enough to deal with him, Quistis tried and failed.

If anything it shows you should help people that act miserable all the time, instead of ignoring their problems. And that you can improve a person by being with them.

You shouldn't dislike Rinoa because she might end up going through the same experience. Squall cared about her and wouldn't have abused or used her.

People would have to be pretty weird to live their lives following what happens in games.. It's not like this is going to happen...

"OMG How did she change Squall?? I'm going to see if my ex will change his mind and come back to me! I know he raped me but still, guys can change!!! Squall did! I need him too!"

.... I don't think so.

That was said in CD 1 during the Parade.. CD 1 Rinoa was a brave Independent Leader and even after a bad experience she still manages to have enough courage to battle Edea. The worlds most dangerous enemy .. but then CD 2... CD 3... It's like what Squall says..
" What happened to you Rinoa " ? xD

She got even stronger later on in the game, what do you mean what happened? All those things we mentioned, her becoming a sorceress, nearly dieing, being kidnapped, taken by Adel. You saying she became weaker after? And when did Squall say that?

In Space Rinoa was almost half/ dead and in a coma like state almost. She was gasping for air. It would be hard to cry aaaand gasp for air. Anyway didn't you say before that crying makes a person stronger or whatever or crying doesn't make a person weak. ?
So even if Rinoa kept her tears in or had a moment where she was in tears.. it wouldn't of mattered. Actually would of preferd that Rinoa Did burst into tears, because then it would of told and showed the player more that- Okay Rinoa has been through alot and OK- she has been through alot of pain..

Ha, I thought you'd say something like that. Her life support didn't finish for awhile and she didn't panic once during that time. She had the strength to talk so she'd have had the strength to panic or scream but she didn't.

I just watched that part again (love the scenes in space) and I only noticed now she was crying which made the scene even better for me actually. The tears floated.. aww.

Nope it doesn't make her weaker if she did cry, shows how normal she is. I was just trying to say she didn't make a huge scene over it. For someone who whines a lot as you say, wouldn't she have done that? She was so scared but handled it really well. I think for a person who likes to whine and moan every 5 seconds as you claim her to do, to be weak as you think she is, wouldn't she have been a wreck in that situation then?

Same for when Laguna was talking about the plan in Esthar...

Laguna: Good! Next, we [wait] for Sorceress Ultimecia to possess Rinoa!
This'll be hard on you, Rinoa, but will you do it?
Rinoa: ...Yes.
Laguna: That's the spirit!

You can't interpret quotes like this differently even if you think that's true, she doesn't say anything other than yes. Even Laguna says it'll be hard, and I'm sure he wouldn't say she's being weak.

And when she had to be taken to the Sorceress Memorial...

Descendant 2: Come with us. We must seal your power for the
sake of the world.
Rinoa: ......All right.
Squall: Rinoa! Don't go!
Rinoa: ......Thanks, Squall. But I have to go...

She didn't beg Squall to protect her or do anything other than co-operate with them. Sounds pretty mature here and un-whiny. Even when Squall didn't want her to go, she was strong enough to keep on going when all she wanted was to be with him. That takes courage!

Like said before not all girls are going to relate to Rinoa because we are all different..
We don't all go around expressing our emotions freely like Rinoa does, if you are able to express your emotions well like Rinoa then feel lucky.. it's a personality trait that some would love to have..
But no woman/ people they are all different.. and we are not all going to relate...

From the way I described her in that list, 'She's normal too - shows she needs help sometimes, gets scared, upset, angry and makes mistakes' I think most girls would relate to her better than some other characters. Even someone on here said they can identify with her really well. Yes everyone is different and it depends on the individual's personality, but Rinoa pretty much acts like a real and normal young girl. Someone who does show a side some people may dislike but it's a side a lot of girls have. If your made to feel it's better not to be that way (which your pretty much arguing here) as it shows weakness, then people that have that kind of personality are going to feel bad, as though they can't be themselves, that it's weak. Which isn't true.

Looking at other older posts on here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagg
She was clumsy, awkward and a bit naive but completely optimistic. That made her very real and believable to me.

I like this a lot. Not every character can know what to do perfectly in every situation. Rinoa struck me as someone who was getting through what looked like a pretty rough situation the best way she knew how, and I saw a lot of strength in that.

This is why she seems even more real and identifiable.

I think that's another reason why FF8 is so popular, it's a more realistic environment and different to a lot of other RPG games. The characters are likeable and realistic too.

^ Read the Rosa and Lenna examples up above..

Not familiar with that FF..

So basically it's fine to dislike Selphie and Yuffie because they are ''annoying " but you can't explain why dislike somebody because you feel like she is too hard on the main character of the story and she pushes somebody down stairs after helping her..
Yes she goes through alot of pain and feel sorry towards her because of that..
Don't find people begging for help annoying, as said before you can't say things when you don't even know me... did you know that I love helping others and is becoming a psychologist ?? xD

I didn't say it as simply as them being annoying, nearly all characters in the games can be classified as annoying. I gave facts though, Yuffie did steal their materia and Selphie did act hyper most of the time. Those are good enough truthful reasons to dislike them.

Fair enough if you don't like Rinoa because she was hard on Squall (even tho he really needed it), but you didn't say it as simply as that. Even if those are your reasons for disliking her. I hardly think that's fair. She wasn't that hard on him in the first place, and when she was it was because she wanted to help him. And not liking her because she pushed Irvine down the stairs? Even though he deserved it? That was for fun/comic relief, not intended to be taken so seriously.

The reality is that- somebody people are going to play through Final Fantasy VIII and think that way, some people do already. They dislike Rinoa because *they * believe that she whines alot.. okay um.... quiet/ reserved people CAN be tough.. Vivi from Final Fantasy IX proves that to the max.. plus what's wrong with quiet reserved people ? Squall was reserved and Yuna was quiet..

You misread that. I said "Not all people show they're tough all the time and are emotionless/quiet/reserved." I was putting the tough/emotionless/quiet/reserved into one group. Usually the tough characters that don't talk about their feelings are that way.

Not saying there's something wrong with reserved people. But that doesn't mean they're stronger just because they don't voice their emotions as much! That's what I've been trying to say.....

Proof please that Irvine was more scared of Ulitmeca than Rinoa..
Rinoa was a positive- thinker and she believed that Squall were going to met in the promised area- kiss/ hug = head home..
Know thinking about this Rinoa did cry- pretty sure she started to cry when she thought that Squall was dead, but that isn't a hate rinoa comment because hating somebody who cried over somebody's death would be pretty cold..

Irvine: I've never seen anything so creepy. You think what's-her-face really lives here?

Rinoa: We've come this far. She's gotta be here.

Well guess it doesn't really show he's that scared, but Rinoa seems less scared anyway. Only a brave person would say that.

It's a good thing to be a positive thinker, you may get your hopes up but if you spend most of your life thinking the worst your not going to be able to enjoy things. Sometimes things do work out for the best. Squall didn't just say "There are no guarantees", he told her he'll promise to find her.

Yeah she must have cried, or she was just about to until the darkness disappeared and the flowers/blue sky came up and Squall regained consciousness.

[Okay Good Things about Rinoa]
:- She is a caring supporter and she tries to bring out the best in others
:- She is confident to ask Squall for a dance, most would shy away or would beg for friends to ask him to dance..
:- She tries at once stage to free Timber from the Governments Iron Fist..
:- She has a pet Dog =p
:- She wants Squall to open up and become a better person and she does that..

[Things I dislike about Rinoa]
:- Feel like she is way too forceful on Squall and even treats him like a child sometimes..
:- She is open about her feelings and not everybody likes open people... because they just dislike hearing about people's emotions..
:- Pushes Irvine down stairs after him trying to help her..
:- Feel like she puts more pressure on Squall yes- she does go through alot of pain.
But Zell was there- he would of loved to help her- there was Selphie- Quistis..
Even Dr Kadowaki who she had a good friend relationship with..
:- Sometimes you can't change somebody and she sends the message across that you can change even the most hurt/ heartbroken people and in reality.. that's rare..
Your more likely to end up like Quistis.... hurt.. xD

If you can list a bunch of good things about a character then they can't be a bad female lead.

Maybe she did put 'pressure' on the others too, but it wasn't relevant to the plot. I doubt she only went to see Squall in Balamb Garden, if that's the bit your talking about where she kept waking him up and stuff. Other times she would talk to the group. In any case she liked Squall, really liked him and wanted him to open up more. She saw it as a challenge. What's wrong with wanting to spend time with the person you like the most/fancy?

The fact that she tried to change him for the better shows how strong and determined of a person she really is. You can change people to an extent, if you get them to acknowledge they have a problem and they themselves want to change. Squall wanted to open up more and get close to Rinoa, he couldn't with the personality that he had though. He didn't have feelings for Quistis, so nothing was going to happen there. She only thought she was in love with him, but it was a misunderstood love as she says later when she finds out her feelings to him were because they shared a childhood together. Which she didn't know about until she remembered about them all growing up together.

The thing was Squall never got close to anyone at all, imagine that? Being alone all your life? He purposely tried to avoid getting involved in other people's lives. That's going to change you a lot. So maybe that personality isn't the way he truly is, and Rinoa snapped him out of it over time? As Aqua said, she helped him. He didn't change that much, not like he became a completely different character after. He just finally got to know what it's like to fall in love and get to close to someone again. Man... imagine if he couldn't save Rinoa? He'd have got even more messed up probably.

But really people usually have a deeper reason why they dislike somebody.. whether the character reminds them of something bad that occurred in their past or the character reminds them of something they regret and that is probably the true reason why isn't true fond of Rinoa's character because had a relationship with somebody who needed a little fixing and it didn't end up as all "Sunshine and Rainbows "... usually people have a deeper reason why they dislike somebody mean have a Friend who dislikes Laguna because Laguna reminds him of himself..
Or somebody dislikes somebody because their personality rubs them the wrong way..
And really can't handle Rinoa being so open, because is kind of like Squall and would rather not hear it unless somebody is need of desperate help or attention...

But then your being biased like Aqua said. It's like you purposely look for reasons to dislike her that aren't there. Maybe you should look at her thinking she was similar to you wanting to fix a guy she liked, not dislike her for it. I thought people LIKED characters that reminded them of themselves. Part of why I like Rinoa is she reminds me of me, I'm quite a lot like her. If anything, seeing similarities should make you like them more, not the other way around.

Airstation
"Respond, Ragnarok!"

Rinoa
"Nobody would want to be around me anymore..."

Airstation
"The sorceress will be seized upon arrival. Be sure to follow the crews instructions."

Rinoa
"I'm...scared."

Airstation
"Squall, do you copy? Is the sorceress listening, too?"

Rinoa
"I'm scared, Squall."

Rinoa
"I don't wanna go back."

^ This is quoted on the Rangnork is she is begging for Squall's help/ aid before heading to the memorial...

How does that show she's begging?? Wow we really do see quotes differently don't we? Lol. She just said she's scared and doesn't want to go back. Begging is like "Please don't make me go back! I'll do anything! Help me Squall!" And even if she did beg, you clearly see after when the people came to take her to the Memorial that she was tough and went with them without showing fear or objecting.

Read up above about the Rangnork- it has proven that she does beg for help. um- okay, again what makes the quotes you have posted right and mine wrong ? -They are both from the same game, the same Final Fantasy VIII..

^ As I said that doesn't show she begs for help. The quotes we gave show her more as we're describing her to be. Look at the ones I gave earlier of her being strong (being taken to the memorial and Laguna telling her what's going to happen).

No your trying to support a character that you like and support her from those who dislike her character. So it's a fact that everybody should like Rinoa and anybody who doesn't like her character is just lying ? It is your opinion Aqua. Like said before you either like Rinoa or you don't..

It's not nice to say that whoever doesn't like Rinoa Heartilly's character is not right and whoever likes Rinoa is stating the truth. That's not giving people a fair chance.. you don't have to like a certian character.. you don't have like Rinoa Heartilly..

We've already explained though, it's not that we're annoyed with people who don't like her. It's when they give untrue reasons in hating them. Saying she's weak and whiny most of the time, is so not true. As we've proven.

What's with the whole Rinoa- Dislikers- Don't speak the truth thing ? Just because we dislike the girl doesn't mean that we are lying on the reasons why we dislike her. Why would I make up crap about disliking Rinoa because was mentally abused twice by two different men and then Rinoa comes around does the same thing with Squall and all of a sudden everything is magical ? Why- Would- somebody- make- up- that ?? And my past in 2007 wasn't a lie..

Not saying your lying, but your beliefs and reasons are just not true.
Ok... But that's a strange reason to dislike a character, because they had things happen better for them...

So saying that she had a kind heart and that she is a supporting leader of friends is saying that she is made of fail ? xD

Your still debating/arguing with us though that Rinoa is weak and whiny.

Rinoa
"Squall..."
"Gosh, can't you just say 'yes' for fun?"
Rinoa
"You're so cute! Taking it seriously!"
Rinoa
"Yes, I know."
"You're just being dishonest again. It's so funny. I know that deep down inside you care about them."
Rinoa
"Yes, I know."
"You're just being dishonest again. It's so funny. I know that deep down inside you care about them."
Rinoa
"...Quistis was right on...Oh, you're so predictable."
Rinoa
"Fine...I guess I'll have to bug you for the rest of the night."
"And I'm gonna keep chanting 'concert, concert, concert' and drive you nuts."
"Is that what you want?"

If anything it shows she's the childish one. Doesn't sound like she's treating him like a child, she was just having fun with him and trying to get him to open up more.

Rinoa: "Hey Squall, would you have been worried about me, too? Y'know, if I were with them instead?" Squall: (What? Why is she asking me this? I don't know.) "I...ahhh...I don't know. Umm...maybe...I don't know." Rinoa: "Oh my gosh! You're turning red!" Squall: (What...? No I'm not.) Rinoa: "You're so cute! Taking it so seriously!"

She saw how he was acting like he liked her and having a bit of fun, seeing him acting more real.

Rinoa: "Yes, I know. You're just being dishonest again. It's so funny. I know that deep down inside you care about them."

Squall didn't express how happy he was to see the group again, and Rinoa was just messing because he never shows his emotions. This was when they were reunited at the fisherman's horizon part I think?

Squall: "Sorry. I'm not in the mood."
Rinoa: "How come?"
Squall: "I'd rather not talk about it."
Rinoa: "...Quistis was right on... Oh, you're so predictable. ...Ok, I'm sorry. I can understand why you wouldn't be in the mood. You're probably still thinking about what the headmaster said today. He put a lot on your shoulders. It all happened so fast. So we thought it'd be good for you to come and unwind a little. Plus I have something important that I want to talk to you about."

This is the full version of one of your quotes. Sound's like your twisting it to your own advantage . Look at how she talks after, doesn't sound like she's treating him like a child there. Just saying he's predictable? He is, all he kept doing was shutting people out, never wanting to talk about his feelings.

Even if she was treating him like a child, he should act less emotionless and
reserved and realize he still is very young (only 17) and she was trying to get him to act like one really.

Quistis wasn't a screaming machine- in fact she was probably one of the most calmest and most intelligent people in the game after Squall Leonhart..

She didn't act calm when Rinoa wanted to help during the Parade part. So it would make sense if she didn't want to talk to her about other things..

Rinoa is okay character but Aqua- Stargirl saying that somebody doesn't have the right to dislike her because whatever reason and saying that whatever reasons they dislike somebody or whatever Quote they put on here isn't a fact like yours isn't right.. people have right to dislike somebody.. .Even if their reason for disliking Rinoa is stupid or poor they have a reason to dislike her and a right to dislike her, you guys have a right to like Rinoa and many others have a right to like Rinoa Heartilly for whatever reason. But I've never said that my reasons are fact and yours a false like you have said many times to me..

Like I said, it annoys us when someone gives.. not because of stupid or poor reasons to dislike a character, but reasons that are untrue. Maybe we get annoyed when people criticize her all the time and say she's whiny and weak when that's untrue and they just can't see the full picture?

Find me quotes where she really does beg, where she really just whines on and on, where she shows she's weak... other than just saying she's scared?

That's why our quotes are more proof, yours - like Aqua said don't show her to beg, be whiny, cry about the future, only worrying about herself and not being strong, always needing Squall's help, or whatever else you say about her. The reasons why you can't give good quotes that back your beliefs is because there aren't any, she isn't the way you think her to be.

Finally... this is going on forever...

 

[.Tifa]

I agree, with hating the stupid girl. But why you hate her isn't any real reason to hate her. Because she isn't any of what you claimed.

Whatever... don't see what's so wrong with seeing the character in a different point of view. Yeah the person who made this thread was wrong about Rinoa like dating Seifer for a example. Pumpkin Queen did you read about dating the fixer uper thing ? That isn't a real reason to dislike somebody ? And like Irvine really- he is a sensitive guy seeing one of your favourite characters get pushed down stairs even it was comic relief isn't a real reason ?

But I also don't have to make up reasons to allow myself to hate her.

Read up above. If people here are not reading from both sides there is no point in debating..

And also, ALL FF lead females are exactly the frickin' same.

You know that's not true. Rosa was unconfident but she still cared about Cecil.. if Rosa and Rinoa were the same then Rosa would of be open and able to express her emotions about Cecil freely and openly. If Garnet was the same as Rinoa or even Rosa she would of cared about Zidane's wellbeing instead she flicked him off several times and even gave him Sleeping Weed to get him off her back..

even Terra. They're all weak minded, "I can't protect myself", "Ahh, icky spider", half dressed, can't fight bitches.

Have you completed Final Fantasy VI yet ? Have you seen the ending to VI and seen how Strong and brave Terra was ??

So why are we just picking on Rinoa? Because why I ask? Because she's like the rest of the 13+ female leads in the FF world.

No.. Rinoa is different from some and have proved that up above..

If anyone honestly thinks that ANY of the FF leading ladies are ANY different than each other, I highly suggest they replay the games a few times.

...Funny hearing that when you have forgotten the change and improvement towards Terra in the ending to FF6.. If you haven't completed VI yet- suggest it because the ending is really great..

No it's fine, but I'd rather just post here. I meant act civil as in not insulting each other, like how you made me out to be disrespectful to women in your other posts.

Fair enough plus if anybody is unsure whether to like or dislike Rinoa's character they can read through this and this will help them get a idea of Rinoa's character and then help them make a decision on her character- whether if it's positive or negative..

Yeah people would have reacted differently but not in a BAD way, that's just weird. All because I said one word? Childbirth?

Will PM you something.. don't want to but.. don't want to be called weird or ridiculous for it anymore..

Hmm do you not think Quistis was stupid for going back in the middle of an important mission just to apologize to her? They all sure messed about during that parade, didn't they?

Quistis was worried about her mistakes and she was worried about Rinoa's feelings she was worried that something bad would happen if she didn't apologize. Quistis just wanted to be a good leader and make everything right and she was kind of jealous of Rinoa so maybe she didn't want her jealously of her to get in the way. Yes they messed up but didn't think/ believe that Quistis made a stupid mistake.

He should have also known they'd be getting tortured and could die, if he cared about them he'd have gone back, and he did but if it hadn't had been for Rinoa he wouldn't have. He especially should have wanted to go back knowing who they all were. He still liked Selphie too.

Irvine was a bit of a wuss remember... xD He looked up to Squall because he was brave. The same goes for Zell... pretty sure that Irvine wanted to head back but was afraid.
No there is no quote said that could prove that, expect from maybe judging from the parade that he was a bit.......un- confident [/quote]

Lighten up. It was funny

Yeah Squall was a meanie, and very annoying/cold at times. (But I still really liked his character)

Same relate to him alot.. and saw that you supported him on the "Squall is a Jerk " thread and supported the " Squall isn't Emo ".. is glad you did that.. [er is supposed to smile here ? <_<''; >_>''; ]

"Fixer upper", eh? Hmmm... I don't think she'd have been THAT hurt if he didn't bother with her or change though, they'd have still been friends or whatever

No meant Squall was a Fix-uper and that Squall was hurt because of his past. living alone and loosing Ellone.... and having issues trusting others..

If anything it shows you should help people that act miserable all the time, instead of ignoring their problems. And that you can improve a person by being with them.

Have a friend who suffers from mental depression.. though sometimes they ask for impossible things- like get my boyfriend back.. and don't know what to do and don't know how to fix the problem.. but yeah is helping the depressed person right now..

You shouldn't dislike Rinoa because she might end up going through the same experience. Squall cared about her and wouldn't have abused or used her.

Sadly Squall is a video games character- it would be nice if he was real and could help us out and maybe save the world from evil or maybe become our boyfriend.. but Squall isn't real .. in reality he might of acted a little different..

You shouldn't dislike Rinoa because she might end up going through the same experience. Squall cared about her and wouldn't have abused or used her.
People would have to be pretty weird to live their lives following what happens in games.. It's not like this is going to happen...

You don't understand.. I dislike Rinoa because..... She reminds me of the mistakes that I have done in my past..
Had to bold that because don't want somebody else to come along and say that is a lie or isn't a good enough reason to dislike somebody..

"OMG How did she change Squall?? I'm going to see if my ex will change his mind and come back to me! I know he raped me but still, guys can change!!! Squall did! I need him too!"

.... I don't think so.

..... Huh ?....

And when did Squall say that?
Trabia Garden after they work out/ remember they all grew up in the same orphanage..

Not familiar with that FF..

If you don't mind playing a game with older graphics recommend a playthrough..

Selphie did act hyper most of the time. Those are good enough truthful reasons to dislike them.

Your saying that it's a good enough reason to dislike Selphie because of her hyperactive persona correct ? Then how come it's not a good enough reason to dislike somebody who is open about their emotions ? Yes most women are open about their feelings and like to vent but not all of them..

Fair enough if you don't like Rinoa because she was hard on Squall

Just wish/ wished that she gave him a little bit of a break- a while to think things through..

Maybe you should look at her thinking she was similar to you wanting to fix a guy she liked, not dislike her for it. I thought people LIKED characters that reminded them of themselves.

It's not that easy. Because in the end we are not unlike.. more like completely different people.. See this way- Rinoa meets somebody who has had a trouble past and she ends up improving his life and making him become a better person..
I met two men who needed fixing up one was so anti- social he didn't want to leave his house, and then ended up becoming their puppet and just their mind game for abuse.
How can you like somebody who brings up those bad memories ? Would love go back into the days when was a huge Rinoa fan and loved her character, but those days are gone..

Part of why I like Rinoa is she reminds me of me, I'm quite a lot like her.

That's true.. you are very Rinoa like...

The reasons why you can't give good quotes that back your beliefs is because there aren't any, she isn't the way you think her to be.

Is really tried of seeing this.. you and Aqua mention I'm being biased but your saying every single time that your point of view and the way you see Rinoa is the correct way.
Isn't saying that your ideas are facts and my reasons for disliking Rinoa are false..
That isn't being biased.. ?

 

[Saints&Storms]

Please explain how that isn't cheating Aqua
When A] The battle was over before Loz shocked her
B] It was a surprise attack when Tifa didn't expect
C] She was unable to move after the attack was done..

Do you really believe that Tifa is so darn low and cold that she would let Marlene get kidnapped by Loz- One of her friends [ Barret's ] adopted child be kidnapped so she could lay in the grass and wait for Cloud to hold her in her arms ??

http://www.unlimitedgamer.net/image....ldren_0496.jpg

^ That's a picture of Tifa struggling to get up after Loz has shocked her..

.

Okay I'll tell you how he didn't cheat and bottom line Tifa is worse off than Rinoa.

1]-He sat there talking on a phone for a few minutes if protecting marlene was most important she should have attacked him there, but she didn't because she wanted to be saved by Cloud. And he didn't surprise her hence the phone moment, and then he threw a bench at her...No surprise right?
1]-Tifa has been threw wa-ay more and been able to move like lets say having been knocked down by bahamut SIN.

I don't think Tifa is low, but I think she lets her child hood dream take over more important things, and no I don't think she did it consciously just it what she wanted, to be saved.

What meant was that Lenna was a princess she would of have to stay inside her castle and never see the world Lenna had no idea what the world was going to be like. Rinoa knew that she was doing a risky job being apart of a rebel group..

I'm pretty sure Lenna knew it would be dangerous, and Rinoa knew just the same as Lenna when going on her own risky job.

^ This is quoted on the Rangnork is she is begging for Squall's help/ aid before heading to the memorial...

I don't see any begging like I said before being SCARED and Begging Are not the same thing.

No your trying to support a character that you like and support her from those who dislike her character. So it's a fact that everybody should like Rinoa and anybody who doesn't like her character is just lying ? It is your opinion Aqua. Like said before you either like Rinoa or you don't..

It's not nice to say that whoever doesn't like Rinoa Heartilly's character is not right and whoever likes Rinoa is stating the truth. That's not giving people a fair chance.. you don't have to like a certian character.. you don't have like Rinoa Heartilly..

Yes I am defending her against unjust accusations. No I never said that, don't put words in my mouth, the reasons for disliking her stated on the first page and your reasons are simply false.

I didn't say "whoever doesn't like Rinoa Heartilly's character is not right and whoever likes Rinoa is stating the truth." I simply said you are not stating true reasons they are invalid. I never said you HAVE TO like her, just don't hate her for the things you make up about her.

During the parade Quistis was the leader of the sewer mission, she was doing all different job all together. If Quistis was on the another team she would of tried to fight the sorceress because it would of been her job as a SeeD. But you can't say that Quistis didn't fight Edea because she was still hurt over Squall when it didn't happen in the game at all...

No doubt she probably would have but the reason she flipped on Rinoa is because squall danced with Rinoa.

It depends what version you watch btw- The Nibelheim addicent is always different..
But either way in what version she always get stabbed by Sephiroth and she always sees her Father dead.

So it's okay to have a romantic fantasy vision with Rinoa but not Tifa ? That addicent was just Tifa's dream coming true a reality .. she wished Cloud to save her when she was 12 and then she ends up trying to fight Sephiroth- a legendary Solider and then Cloud appears when she in injured and takes her to the side. That isn't Tifa playing Damsel again, that is Tifa's dream for Cloud to save her becoming a reality..

Yes she saw him already dead but that was her own fault for going up there when she was told NOT to, Isn't her dream to be saved the same as begging for help? and lets drop the Tifa talk I don't want this thread getting closed.

So saying that she had a kind heart and that she is a supporting leader of friends is saying that she is made of fail ? xD

Apparently she is selfish as you've said before, she talks about herself too much. How can you do this and be good hearted? And you've been saying as a character she is A step down, and lets not forget ,she in your book, begs for help all the time

Head back and read one of the posts where was replying to Stargirl one of the earlier ones. Mention one of the other reasons why didn't like Rinoa because she pushed Irvine down stairs and one of the reasons why I believe that Rinoa - rants alot..

You certainly haven't backed why she is Always begging for help is stress and trouble to the group and Squall and Whats bad about talking about you feelings? XD

Read up above about the Rangnork- it has proven that she does beg for help..when does she say shouldn't hit me because you shouldn't .. ?? um- okay, again what makes the quotes you have posted right and mine wrong ? -They are both from the same game, the same Final Fantasy VIII..

I was referencing to the 'if Rinoa was in Tifa's position fighting scarlet'

Rinoa
"Squall..."
"Gosh, can't you just say 'yes' for fun?"
Rinoa
"You're so cute! Taking it seriously!"
Rinoa
"Yes, I know."
"You're just being dishonest again. It's so funny. I know that deep down inside you care about them."
Rinoa
"Yes, I know."
"You're just being dishonest again. It's so funny. I know that deep down inside you care about them."
Rinoa
"...Quistis was right on...Oh, you're so predictable."
Rinoa
"Fine...I guess I'll have to bug you for the rest of the night."
"And I'm gonna keep chanting 'concert, concert, concert' and drive you nuts."
"Is that what you want?"

She's FLIRTING with him, I don't see where she treats him like a Child, more like she's acting like on herself, again to FLIRT.

No supported the reasons why Irvine left the group when was debating with StarGirl.
Quistis wasn't a screaming machine- in fact she was probably one of the most calmest and most intelligent people in the game after Squall Leonhart..

Where when she out of no where whines about her feelings for Squall on the beach?

No even though believe that Rinoa is annoying sometimes believe that her and Squall make the best relationship over Selphie and/ or Quistis being with him because what said before with her supporting Squall and trying to bring out the best in him & etc..

Rinoa is okay character but Aqua- Stargirl saying that somebody doesn't have the right to dislike her because whatever reason and saying that whatever reasons they dislike somebody or whatever Quote they put on here isn't a fact like yours isn't right.. people have right to dislike somebody.. .Even if their reason for disliking Rinoa is stupid or poor they have a reason to dislike her and a right to dislike her, you guys have a right to like Rinoa and many others have a right to like Rinoa Heartilly for whatever reason. But I've never said that my reasons are fact and yours a false like you have said many times to me..

Its not that its a poor reason or even stupid, They just aren't TRUE. Because the things you say Rinoa are are NOT true, you haven't really back them either >.> You can DISLIKE HER just do it for reasons that exist or are at least true. Sve for her being too open I agree thats true whether or not its a bad thing...

 

[.Tifa]

.

bottom line Tifa is worse off than Rinoa.

Aqua do you know how hypercritical that is ? Saying that it's wrong and unworthy to insult one of your favourite characters. But it's okay to insult somebody elses ? It's okay to insult the Tifa Fans ? If you get a horde of Tifa fans knocking on your doorstep looking for a answer like I'm getting with you and Stargirl I wouldn't be surprised..

.
1]-He sat there talking on a phone for a few minutes if protecting marlene was most important she should have attacked him there

Oh really ? Attack somebody while he is having a conversation on the phone.. nice one Aqua. Then it would of made her the cheater..

.
I don't think Tifa is low

Yeah right.. so you saying that she plays damsel in distress and puts her own ambitions over a young child isn't low..? And BTW "I'm stating the truth... the facts.. not opinions...
[ Ohh I love you Tifa.. ]]

I'm pretty sure Lenna knew it would be dangerous, and Rinoa knew just the same as Lenna when going on her own risky job.

Yeah shure. A Princess who has never stepped outside the castle before ? Um okay for starters Lenna loved her Dad and wanted to save her Dad and Rinoa wanted to revenge her Dad.. >_>

I don't see any begging like I said before being SCARED and Begging Are not the same thing..

But it showed that is she was BEGGING for SQUALL'S HELP..

the reasons for disliking her stated on the first page and your reasons are simply false.

1] Rinoa is a open- expressive person
2] Rinoa does harm Irvine- twice - once in the car and then again down stairs
3] Rinoa does provoke Squall in a child- like manner and have proved that with quotes

So when does Rinoa be a reserved person ? Did the CD 2 Prison adventure didn't happen ? Does Rinoa say "oky Squall- I'll give you some time alone.. " xD

If they were false then Rinoa would be reserved Irvine wouldn't of been harmed and Rinoa would of given Squall a break. You can't call something false when they happen.

I didn't say "whoever doesn't like Rinoa Heartilly's character is not right and whoever likes Rinoa is stating the truth.".

"I'm stating the truth- the facts- all of your facts are lies.. " xD

just don't hate her for the things you make up about her..

I may of misunderstood Rinoa's character a little bit. But it's human to make mistakes and I'm not making shit about on the spot, how can somebody's feelings and point of view be made up of lies.. ?? xD

No doubt she probably would have but the reason she flipped on Rinoa is because squall danced with Rinoa.

Lol.. she flipped out on Rinoa because her idea to defeat Edea wasn't the greatest..
Not because she danced with Squall..

and lets drop the Tifa talk I don't want this thread getting closed.

Wise thinker you are..

she talks about herself too much. How can you do this and be good hearted?

She speaks about her emotions too much....

Whats bad about talking about you feelings? XD

As Stargirl said most females like to vent- hear emotions- express emotions.. but you know Aqua there is a rare few out there they don't like hearing sad things about their friends.... and there is a rare few that don't know how to handle emotions...

Because the things you say Rinoa are are NOT true, you haven't really back them either >.>

The things you have said about Tifa are not true, so could say the same about what you have said about Tifa. And it should be okay to speak about Tifa like Misty said as longs as we don't insult the fans or each other. If we insult a Tifa fan and not the character then yes we would get the thread closed. But it should be okay to use Tifa as a example.


But it's getting kind of silly and hypercritical- you have come here to protect Rinoa but then you do the same as the person who has created this thread by insulting a character that somebody likes- Tifa lockhart. anyways don't give a damn anymore, is tried of hearing that my reasons for disliking Rinoa are false when they are true- real. I've said it before Aqua and even put it in bold- the deeper reason for disliking Rinoa and then to hear you Pumpkin Queen and Stargirl come in and say that reason is a lie not a fact and is false ? It's rather cold- hearted to say that to somebody..

 

[StarGirl87]

No meant Squall was a Fix-uper and that Squall was hurt because of his past. living alone and loosing Ellone.... and having issues trusting others..

You said Rinoa could have got really hurt because of Squall's personality, I meant that even though she had a thing for him if Squall stayed the same and she couldn't change him, she wouldn't have tried anymore to get that close. She already got hurt anyway "Why do you have to be this way?" "Why does it have to be like this?" "All you want to do is leave!"

If anything, Squall was annoying her more than she was annoying him. She was just trying to be friendly with him/flirt, and he would be really mean like he was with Quistis. How rude was he telling her to talk to a wall? All he wanted was to get away from anyone showing any sort of interest in him or expecting anything from him. That must be really annoying, you can't live like that or be around people like that.

In the end Rinoa really HELPED him, which he really needed. So that should cancel whatever bad view you have of her being annoying/hard on him.

You don't understand.. I dislike Rinoa because..... She reminds me of the mistakes that I have done in my past..
Had to bold that because don't want somebody else to come along and say that is a lie or isn't a good enough reason to dislike somebody..

If you were like the way she was with Squall with someone you knew, then you should be able to relate to her better. It may have been a mistake with you but doing that is the right thing to do. It just so happened to work on Squall. Why dislike her because she reminds you of something you did right that backfired on you? That's like me not liking Zell because I tried to do his punching moves as self defence but I ended up getting hurt...

..... Huh ?....

You were saying that the way she is is a bad influence on girls or something because girls will get hurt thinking they can change a guy they like too. It doesn't work like that though. That just sounds to me like your looking for any excuse you can to make her actions seem negative when they were a positive.

If you don't mind playing a game with older graphics recommend a playthrough..

Yeah I'm going to play some of the older ones one of these days...

Your saying that it's a good enough reason to dislike Selphie because of her hyperactive persona correct ? Then how come it's not a good enough reason to dislike somebody who is open about their emotions ? Yes most women are open about their feelings and like to vent but not all of them..

Mainly because there wasn't much to Selphie other than her hyperactive persona. Rinoa did a lot of good, by being a determined and emotional person she helped Squall. How can you not like characters for being open about their emotions? Characters that weren't like that would be just boring and empty.

Just wish/ wished that she gave him a little bit of a break- a while to think things through..

Like I said what about Squall being a little less hard on her and more friendly? They were both hard on each other! Yes she was persistent but in a GOOD way, he really needed it. I'm sure he had plenty of times to think things through, he always thought about things and never expressed them with the others. Rinoa just wanted him to express what he's really thinking to the group, it's what everyone wanted. Is that such a bad thing? Most people would do the same to someone who was like that, to someone they liked/cared about and had to be around.

It's not that easy. Because in the end we are not unlike.. more like completely different people.. See this way- Rinoa meets somebody who has had a trouble past and she ends up improving his life and making him become a better person..
I met two men who needed fixing up one was so anti- social he didn't want to leave his house, and then ended up becoming their puppet and just their mind game for abuse.
How can you like somebody who brings up those bad memories ? Would love go back into the days when was a huge Rinoa fan and loved her character, but those days are gone..

Like I said what she did wasn't wrong, so you shouldn't not like her because she reminds you of what you did..... Then make up things about her being annoying, whiny, weak, a bad role model, etc....

Is really tried of seeing this.. you and Aqua mention I'm being biased but your saying every single time that your point of view and the way you see Rinoa is the correct way.
Isn't saying that your ideas are facts and my reasons for disliking Rinoa are false..
That isn't being biased.. ?

Because your quotes don't show her to be as you say. We've proved she's not this weak and whiny person you and so many other Rinoa-haters think she is. We're not saying we're 'correct' for liking her and for others not to. But for disliking her for certain reasons that aren't true, which we've proven from what she's done in the game and what she's said - is unfair and wrong. It's not being biased. I think Rinoa has been a misunderstood character.

Here's some words I found on a website:

"Guys, I'm gonna fight, too. I don't wanna just hide. I know I can fight. I want to fight alongside everyone. I have to fight. To prove to myself that I can do it...That I belong with you guys."

Can you take this the wrong way? She sounds very strong to me!

"Characters are rescuing Rinoa constantly throughout the game. This is because she is the typical Piscean who hopes, expects and in her heart knows people will come through for her when she isn't able to by herself. She would admit to feeling helpless or scared but she is never seen calling out for help because she knows she can depend on Squall. It's this needy side of her personality which sets the foundation for romantic scenes."

Depending on others / your partner when you can't do something yourself isn't a bad thing, it's not weak. Rinoa needed to be that way for the romance to develop too. There has to be an element of damsel in distress / guy saving girl - all RPG heroines are this way.

"Kazushige Nojima wanted Rinoa to be very different from the other FF Heroines in that she is a "straight" character. She is capable of doing some shocking things for a girl and she is all about confrontation. This includes speaking her mind even when it most likely will offend or embarrass someone, physically hitting people, and (due to her ambitions) being demanding of others when she's not yet familiar with them."

 

[Whoareyou]

Yes Rinoa is certainly a different character to the outwardly strong and confident (most of the time) Tifa and Garnet from VII and IX but I'm pretty sure this is not how she is meant to be portrayed. I think she is meant to be almost exactly as you have described her...
I believe she is supposed to be perhaps a little childish, whilst at the same time a character who can interest players...
Maybe she's just a little complicated?

 

[Platinum_Lies]

She is fairly complicated if one looks beneath surface, which this debate is clearly showing. What is surprising is that certain scenes convery two completely contradictory images of Rinoa to different people.

If this were a specific board it would have long degenerated into all out flame war that takes no prisoers. Kudos for letting cooler heads prevail.

Really wish that board would learn such a lesson...

 

[cenarius]

Does anybody feel like Rinoa is a bad female lead ?

Feel like Rinoa could be the worst Final Fantasy lead lady.

- When Rinoa and Squall meet each other. Rinoa is already dating Seifer and really at that moment she really has no reason to reject the guy. But just feel a little ticked off that she flirts around with Squall like she isn't dating anybody. I mean, argh. Poor Seifer.

- During the Parade she runs off alone to see a dangerous Witch by- herself ? And then ends up causing trouble for both Squall and Irvine. Mean Rinoa almost screwed up, Squall and Irvine's undercover mission. Both of them could of gotten caught and shot. Not to mention she made both Irvine and Squall panic and stress out.

- She doesn't try and stop Seifer from turning away from Evil ?- In fact she really doesn't care about Seifer at all anymore - ? Okay Seifer's gone bad, let's jump towards the next attractive guy in the flock ? ( Squall )

-When both of the main Gardens head into war. The only thing Rinoa cares about is Squall's ring ? and makes Zell panic and and stress out in the middle of chaos so he can grab a copy of Squall's Ring for Rinoa ?

- Then even though she's scared of fighting/ dislikes seeing violence. She Fights in a war anyways and when she gets into trouble (AGAIN ) She creates more panic for everybody. More Panic for Zell and make Squall stress out to the max.

- Yeah falls into coma. Squall is worried. More panic/ stress for Squall. >_>

- When she gains the powers that were once from Edea/ Marton. Just feel like Rinoa brings more sadness and heavy emotions onto the group. Everybody is trying to be strong and get ready to fight the final last evil. But just feel like Rinoa's rants about saying how she could die/ Squall's going to end up killing me. Just brings down the group a little bit.

- She's way too open about her feelings and HER emotions. What about Irvine's sadness, what about Zell or Seifer or even Quistis's feelings ? Selphie's ?

If you feel like you agree/ disagree on this please speak up/ share your views :3
[ Especially you Rinoa lovers/ Haters out there ]

Just feel like Rinoa was a major stepdown from the strong and mighty Tifa we saw and witnessed kicking Shrina/ Sephiroth butt in VII.

Man, may be you're too hard on her.
1. You'd already known that in a festival/ big party, you can dance with anyone you want.
2. Rinoa thought the Odine's ring can capture the witch, teenager's think=.=, she wanted to help everyone.
3. She didn't meet seifer at all, how could she stop him?
4. Yeah, Rinoa cares about Griever ring, but that was in the past ( when in peace), not in the war. In that time, only Zell remembered to borrow the ring
5- 6. No love without stress, worry ...
7. A girl with honest didn't like violence at all, she can't stand if any one in group die/hurt from the battle
8. i'm sure irvine loves/ like selphie, not Rinoa. One more things, Quitis didn't like Rinoa because she loved/liked Squall, too. Selfie ... ugh.. too joyfull.

 

[Selphie]

- When Rinoa and Squall meet each other. Rinoa is already dating Seifer and really at that moment she really has no reason to reject the guy. But just feel a little ticked off that she flirts around with Squall like she isn't dating anybody. I mean, argh. Poor Seifer.

Rinoa was just dancing with Squall for fun and a bit of a smile really she wasn't too serious about Squall otherwise she would of went to the hidden area with Squall rather than walking away from him and saying thanks it was fuun-baahhee !

- During the Parade she runs off alone to see a dangerous Witch by- herself ? And then ends up causing trouble for both Squall and Irvine. Mean Rinoa almost screwed up, Squall and Irvine's undercover mission. Both of them could of gotten caught and shot. Not to mention she made both Irvine and Squall panic and stress out.

She wanted to feel like she was strong important and she wanted to feel or be like a SeeD just like Squall and Irvine, she wanted to feel stronger and to prove to Squall that she was a strong person and Quistis and her Father were stepping down on her basically treating her like she was stupid or nothing and her Father even wanted to lock her in like she was useless, she refused to be stepped on which is pretty strong.

- She doesn't try and stop Seifer from turning away from Evil ?- In fact she really doesn't care about Seifer at all anymore - ? Okay Seifer's gone bad, let's jump towards the next attractive guy in the flock ? ( Squall )

She worries about Seifer tons when he leaves first from her in Timber and she is broken hearted when she believes that he is dead but he later harms Squall and torturers him it would be so hard to support somebody after hearing that somebody has done that to somebody that you look up to and know..

-When both of the main Gardens head into war. The only thing Rinoa cares about is Squall's ring ? and makes Zell panic and and stress out in the middle of chaos so he can grab a copy of Squall's Ring for Rinoa ?

She asks Zell before the war =_=

- Then even though she's scared of fighting/ dislikes seeing violence. She Fights in a war anyways and when she gets into trouble (AGAIN ) She creates more panic for everybody. More Panic for Zell and make Squall stress out to the max.

Again she is just looking up to Zell and Squall and she wants to feel like she is strong and she helps out in the Garden war because she wants to try and be strong, did Squall stress out about Rinoa when she fell over the cliff ? Because it looked like he was doing his cold <don't give a crap> moments =__=

- Yeah falls into coma. Squall is worried. More panic/ stress for Squall. >_>

Rinoa didnt fall into a coma on purpose =___=

- But just feel like Rinoa's rants about saying how she could die/ Squall's going to end up killing me. Just brings down the group a little bit.

She is worried and very scared though and she was right Squall could of ended up killing her it was basically his job as a SeeD knight but could you imagine the whole world hating you ? You would be very scared too, you know..

- She's way too open about her feelings and HER emotions. What about Irvine's sadness, what about Zell or Seifer or even Quistis's feelings ? Selphie's ?

It was because she went through quite a fair bit of scary incidents and she was damaged a little bit inside " I feel like I'm almost schizophrenic so many emotions are running through me " Rinoa says that and it shows the player that because of the rough adventure she is going through she is ripped up mentally inside a little bit..

Just feel like Rinoa was a major stepdown from the strong and mighty Tifa we saw and witnessed kicking Shrina/ Sephiroth butt in VII.

Tifa rules but Rinoa kicks Galbadian toshie too, she is just more sensitive..

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Does anybody feel like Rinoa is a bad female lead ?

Feel like Rinoa could be the worst Final Fantasy lead lady.

- When Rinoa and Squall meet each other. Rinoa is already dating Seifer and really at that moment she really has no reason to reject the guy. But just feel a little ticked off that she flirts around with Squall like she isn't dating anybody. I mean, argh. Poor Seifer.

- During the Parade she runs off alone to see a dangerous Witch by- herself ? And then ends up causing trouble for both Squall and Irvine. Mean Rinoa almost screwed up, Squall and Irvine's undercover mission. Both of them could of gotten caught and shot. Not to mention she made both Irvine and Squall panic and stress out.

- She doesn't try and stop Seifer from turning away from Evil ?- In fact she really doesn't care about Seifer at all anymore - ? Okay Seifer's gone bad, let's jump towards the next attractive guy in the flock ? ( Squall )

-When both of the main Gardens head into war. The only thing Rinoa cares about is Squall's ring ? and makes Zell panic and and stress out in the middle of chaos so he can grab a copy of Squall's Ring for Rinoa ?

- Then even though she's scared of fighting/ dislikes seeing violence. She Fights in a war anyways and when she gets into trouble (AGAIN ) She creates more panic for everybody. More Panic for Zell and make Squall stress out to the max.

- Yeah falls into coma. Squall is worried. More panic/ stress for Squall. >_>

- When she gains the powers that were once from Edea/ Marton. Just feel like Rinoa brings more sadness and heavy emotions onto the group. Everybody is trying to be strong and get ready to fight the final last evil. But just feel like Rinoa's rants about saying how she could die/ Squall's going to end up killing me. Just brings down the group a little bit.

- She's way too open about her feelings and HER emotions. What about Irvine's sadness, what about Zell or Seifer or even Quistis's feelings ? Selphie's ?

If you feel like you agree/ disagree on this please speak up/ share your views :3
[ Especially you Rinoa lovers/ Haters out there ]

Just feel like Rinoa was a major stepdown from the strong and mighty Tifa we saw and witnessed kicking Shrina/ Sephiroth butt in VII.

Yeah, but where was Seifer when they were dancing? I mean, ug poor Rinoa, her current boyfriend didn't even show up to dance with her, did he? It's not like she kissed Squall, or anything, they just danced. People dance with other people when they are dating.

Really, I was under the impression that Squall and Irvine were already under too much stress. I don't remember them complaining about. Rinoa was a little foolish yes, but it wasn't that large of a mistake.

No one tries to turn Seifer back, do they? It's probably because they knew he was under a spell at the time, and that talking wouldn't do much good. Even if that's not true, I fail to see how Rinoa alone is responsible for saving Seifer.

It doesn't take much to make Zell panic, though does it? I mean, he's outta control have the time anyway, and I don't remember him really stressing out about it too much.

I would think the fact though she hates violence, but is willing to fight despite that would make her a stronger character. Let's not forget that time when everybody but Rinoa gets into trouble, and she has to come save them all. Remember the prison.

Falls into a coma is not a character weakness. It's something that happens when somebody else takes over her body, and when her body is adjusting to the powers of a socceress. I could understand the compliant if all she did was fall into comas, but it only happens once.

Oh, boy, like you wouldn't complain if the person you love is going to stab a sword though your belly. Honestly, what's she supposed to do, keep on lauging and smiling until the moment when she has to die, and then jump on the sword while still smiling. That would be crazy.

It helps make her Squall more of opposites, which helps the story. I don't think that she is too open with her emotions, she's just honest. It's not healthy to hold everything in. Also, she shows genuine interest in hearing how the other feel, so it's not like she wants to be all about her.

The major buttkicking Tifa. Really? She had big boobs, and wore short shorts, and Rinoa was a big step down. Tifa didn't do anything but whine about how Cloud wasn't really Cloud, and didn't even have enough strength to tell Cloud the truth, but was happy enough to let him live a lie. Rinoa is ten times better.

 

[Princess Garnet]

I really like her I never though there was anything wrong with her.

-I never felt like Rinoa was dating Seifer she said that she though she couls have been in love with him a year ago... I got the idea she liked him but hadn't really seen him that much since that time she talks about.

-When she ran off at the Parade she was trying to show everyone that she wasn't unless and I don't think there was nothing wrong with wanting to her her friends even if it did go all wrong. She was only trying.

-As for not caring for Seifer she was really sad when she though he was dead also when Squall told her he might have to kill her she told him she didn't want that to happen. Also she didn't really get the change to talk to Seifer about not turning evil and by the time she could of to much had happened.

-As for the ring it seemed like Zell could have waited until after the Gardens had stopped fighing to give it to her. I am sure that she asked about it before it all kicked off. So that one was all Zell.

-Also even if she hating fight she wanted to stay with her friends and help she didn't want to be unless.

-Falling into a coma don't think she wanted that happened

-Also her being open with her feelings was really good because Squall was so to himself I think Squall need her. They were good for each other.

 

[Jimmy]

I don't like her at all, she is an obvious teenager with daddy issues and i find her annoying, plus i don't think she's a strong character at all, anytime she tries to do anything alone she fails badly...and the fact that you have to save her about 5 or 6 times during the game is just boring too me, i was only hoping she would die like Aerith did but sadly it was not to be.

So i would dare say that not only do i not find her fitting for such a role but i also dislike her a lot probably the most out of all Final Fantasy VIII characters, i think she would have worked great as mid-level villain though.