The 'fire' at Nibelheim

[Lord Varys]

Dr. Porn, the man in the tube in Midgar with the tattoo is not Zack. Zack died outside of Midgar after he and Cloud was tracked down by soldiers and he was shot. Zack never expressed any of the symptons of the man in the tube or Cloud of the experiments that Hojo performed on them.

If that man was Zack Aeris and Cloud both would have recognized him. Plus, in Advent Children we see Cloud visit the spot where Zack died and stands Zack's Buster Sword back up.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

that sick man is zack. he had a #2 tatoo. I forget when, but you can see a cut scene where Zack escapes Hojo's lab with Cloud. Then they are attacked by Shinra Soldiers and Zack is shot near Midgar. Now if you ask the people around the sick man, they say that he was found near Midgar, badly injured. This explains why Aeris wanted to help him. And I believe that Aeris's mother also said something like this "Aeris once had a bf in SOLDIER . . . and something terrible happend." That bf is Zack and the fact that she knows something horrible happend to Zack confirms that the man in the tube is in fact Zack. And after the reunion, if you go back, you'll see that he is no longer there. If you ask the people around, they will say "I dont know where he went, said he was going to some reunion or something" I really dont remember the exact words, but I remember for a fact that the word "reunion" was in there. So now we know for a fact that he is an Sephiroth Clone. The question is if he is Zack. O and if you're wondering how I know Zack was shot around Midgar, it is because of the reports in the lab in Niebliem. One of them says that "escapee #2" (might be 1, idk) was shot in the hills of Midgar (again Idk if it was hills but I remember it said Midgar). And the report of the other escapee stated that his "wherebouts are unknown" (I'm pretty sure this time it said exactly this). Thats Cloud.

*edit* ahh yes even in the last order it say they were shot around midgar and i also forgot mention that i think i remember one of the reports in the lab saying that one of the "samples" (escapees w/e) had a #2 tattoo (zack). However I think the makers decided the change the storyline a bit to make it a more suitable ending because in Crisis Core (which i have not played but have seen the ending) Zack actually dies or at least it looked like he did.

I'm very hanging and depressed so I shall make this short for once....no.

 

[DR.PORN]

Dr. Porn, the man in the tube in Midgar with the tattoo is not Zack. Zack died outside of Midgar after he and Cloud was tracked down by soldiers and he was shot. Zack never expressed any of the symptons of the man in the tube or Cloud of the experiments that Hojo performed on them.

If that man was Zack Aeris and Cloud both would have recognized him. Plus, in Advent Children we see Cloud visit the spot where Zack died and stands Zack's Buster Sword back up.

Perhaps he was so injured from being shot 17 times that he suffered those symptoms. And my theory is better than "some random guy" theory or anything else you guys have. Also Cloud would not have recognized him because he believe he is Zack himself. You know this because when he sees the picture of Zack, Tifa, and Sephiroth, he does not even recognize him. Aeris may not have recognized him because of the fatal wounds or perhaps she chose to never reveal that she recognized him. And also how would the mother know something "terrible" happend to Zack?

Also, Varys, please read everything that I posted before and you will see that the man inside the tube is indeed Zack. Or perhaps you didnt notice my #2 tattoo comment because you were so eager to disprove me. The fact that they have the same tattoo number confirms it.

I'm very hanging and depressed so I shall make this short for once....no.

Moonchild you probably didn't read half of what I said because you were "very hanging and depressed." So before you make any comments read what I have posted.

 

[Bambi]

I'm very hanging and depressed so I shall make this short for once....no.

Has no symapthy

I'm pretty darn sure that Zack died outside Midgar. Its an interesting theory but if it WERE Zack, why the hell did they leave him in that tunnel and not take him back to Aeris' place? It's a little mean. He didn't have the purple spikey hair either.

 

[DR.PORN]

I don't know how to explain the physical looks, but the fact that the lab reports said one of the samples (Zack) had a #2 tattoo. This is the same report from the lab where Cloud and Zack escaped from. Now when you first examine the man in the tube in disc one, Cloud will comment that he has a #2 tattoo. This should confirm that he is in fact Zack. I have no idea why he looks different. Maybe the injuries? Idk. He was shot 17 times . Good point though. Now that I think about it, I believe he had bandages on his head. Maybe that covered his spikey hair and his face was messed up from the injuries? :S.

Also I believe that Square made some changes to the storyline to eliminate any questions that might rise. That man inside the tube is Zack for sure. But to cover that up, they made it look like he died by the Shinra Soldiers. As you know, the FF7 storyline was played around with before its release. As many of you know, Aeris was supposed to come back. Notice that in the final battle, there are 2 parties of 3 and one party of 2. And also that Aeris's ultimate weapon has AP growth. But they decided not to bring her back. I believe that Zack is one of those story flaws/glitches w/e.

 

[Lord Varys]

Heh, Dr. Porn, if you want to believe that go right ahead, but you are wrong; Zack did indeed died outside of Midgar.

One thing to think about the tattooed people is they are the survivors from the Nibelheim incident. However, Zack and Cloud never got tattoos. Especially Zack because his body resisted the experiment of the Mako and Jenova cells because he was in Soldier where he was already showered with Mako.

Cloud was the one who reacted to the Jenova cells, and by his reaction from the experiment resembling those people with the tattoos he should've gotten a tattoo himself but didn't; most likely because he and Zack escaped before that could have happened.

You will probably object to me saying Zack never got a tattoo, but there's no evidence he did in the basement of the Shinra Mansion. Zack is Specimen A, Cloud is Specimen B.

"C project
specimen (B) code c
"A scratch left by a fingernail inside the beaker.
'Lets get out of here'."

"C project
specimen (A) code z
"A scratch left by a fingernail inside the beaker.
'Feeding time', that's our chance!"

A further search of the library next to the lab reveals reports on the hunt for
Zack and Cloud.

"Escape report no.1
X month X day
The two escapee's located near Midgar"

"Escape report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected."

"Escapee report no.3
Concerning their disposal.
A - Shot for resisting.
B - Escaped during A's resistance."

"Escapee report no.4
Other.
B's whereabouts is currently unknown. But, we submit there is no need to
pursue him, due to his diminishing consciousness. Awaiting further


instructions."

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197341/16725 Found in that link.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

Moonchild you probably didn't read half of what I said because you were "very hanging and depressed." So before you make any comments read what I have posted.

Oh no I did read it all (well as well as I could have) but just couldn't be bothered to make a decent reply, because yes I am a wasteful idiot but also because it's silly to think the guy could be Zack. There is enough material in the game to suggest that Zack did infact meet his maker outside Midgar when gunned down by Soldiers. The people with Black Capes and Tattoos are the survivors of Nibelheim who have been experimented on in order to produce a 'copy' of Sephiroth, Zack was a failed attempt and would not have gotten a tattoo even if he and Cloud had escaped when they did. Why a experiment ended up in Midgar has not been explained, it could be anything as alot of story didn't make the finished produced, but it surely isn't Zack.

Besides it looks nothing like him

Has no symapthy

 

[Deceiver]

That guy bein Zack certainly is an interesting theory, and possibly its just another thing left in the game from earlier plans.
The 12 mini Soldiers you can collect, the open, empty chest in the Prison, all originally had a purpose, or rumored purpose atleast. Maybe this guy is just another original idea that they decided to change before release?

 

[Dragon Mage]

Ok, Sephiroth never had a tattoo. What'd be the point? The tattoo's were only a means to keep which clone was which for Hojo. Well, it was pretty obvious which one and who Sephiroth was (being his son an all....) Besides, it never really went into the books what Sephiroth really is, now did it? Otherwise, he would've known that he WASN'T an Ancient when he read all the books in the Shinra Mansion basement.

The experiements on him were utterly secret, thus marking him with a tattoo would rather defeat the purpose.


And LV, you're right on what you said in some points, but wrong in the details. Zack didn't resist the treatments becuase he'd been exposed to Mako before. It was because of his personality. Here, this short essay I wrote will describe the exact goings on surrounding Niblehiem and why it happened.

When Cloud was in Niblehiem, he did not reveal himself for who he was for certain reasons, but that's another story. He kept his identity secret until Sephiroth went mad and destroyed the town. Cloud followed him to the reactor where he saw Tifa attack Sephiroth and get badly injured. Cloud than attacked Sephiroth and stabbed him with Zack’s sword. He than ran back to check on Tifa. Sephiroth walked out and Cloud follows him. Sephiroth stabs him through the shoulder, however Cloud manages to throw him off the edge into the reactor. Cloud then passes out from the wound.

Now, if you've read the letter in Tifa's 'room' than this will all be very clear. Shinra soon showed up after Sephiroth had destroyed the town. Hojo ordered to have all the survivors rounded up for experimentation. This includes Cloud and Zack. Tifa, however, was rescued by her instructor and was saved. Anyways, the 'experiment' involves submerging the subject in Mako, which is very deadly.

You probably know all this, but I'll continue for the sake of those that don't. The Mako--Lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news-- for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind. It becomes nearly impossible to sort out one's own memories from the myriad different others that don't belong. If a person likes their life (Zack) then remembering who they are is not much of a problem. If a person doesn't like their life (Cloud) it's very easy to let go of what you don't want to be. This is how Cloud managed to confuse himself as being Zack. He lost his own identity and so created one for himself as something that he had always wanted to be: a member of SOLDEIR. He used Zack in particular because Zack always told him stories of SOLDEIR life.
[FONT=&quot]
Cloud however was fortunate, so to speak, in this aspect. You see, he had something to become, something to latch onto and a story to back it up. The other Sephiroth 'clones' didn't have this and so completely lost themselves; they lost their identity. Their minds were broken and so Sephiroth could easily control them. I'll get back to this later.

The other part of the experiment is injecting the subject with Jenova cells. Now keep in mind that Shinra wasn't trying to create a 'Sephiroth clone' but actually a clone of an Ancient. This is because the Shinra needed an Ancient to lead them to the Promised Land, which they thought was full of Mako. Shinra injected them with Jenova cells because they thought that Jenova was an Ancient, which couldn't be more wrong. Anyways.... The Jenova cells transform, if you will, the cells around them; a mutation. These mutations can incorporate some of Jenova's powers to a limited extent. One could call Cloud a mutant and that would be correct. The Mako submerging is required to weaken the mind and thus the body's defense. With the defenses down, the cells can move in and 'attack' the normal cells. This is why Zack didn't change whereas Cloud did, because Zack was able to throw off the effects of the Mako and his body responded to the Jenova cells and killed them.

However, this experiment was interrupted, otherwise it would have been successful. Zack managed to break out and free Cloud as well. And as you know, Zack was killed but Cloud was left to die.

Now I'll get back to the part about the controlling the 'clones'. It must be made clear that Sephiroth is half-Jenova, so to speak. He is a half alien. There is a particular trait about this alien that must be brought up. This alien species can control every single cell individually. Ever seen that movie 'The Thing'? Same situation. The alien can control every cell. This also allows it to change shape at will. Since Sephiroth is a 'member' of this alien species, he retains the same trait of being able to control all of his cells. Now, it must also be made clear that Jenova is [/FONT]thoroughly [FONT=&quot]dead. However, Sephiroth can control the cells of his dead 'mother'. That includes the cells inside the 'clones'. So, Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells inside the 'clones' and Cloud to make them do what he wants.
(the 'Sephiroth' you see in the game--it isn't actually THE Sephiroth. It's actually the body of Jenova that Sephiroth shape-changed to look like him. The real Sephiroth is actually diffused within the Lifestream.)

With the clones it would be easy, just control their minds. With Cloud it would be a little trickier. Sephiroth had to manipulate the already messed up memories Cloud has, to make him believe one thing or another. Namely, that he was nothing more than a clone and that he never had a name, etc. As you can imagine this would be a huge blow to Cloud and resulted in him giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth. However, the plunge into the Lifestream allowed Cloud, with Tifa's help, to find a memory of his own that wouldn’t be susceptible to corruption. Basically it was the memory of why Cloud went to join SOLDEIR, but like I said, that's another story. The truth is revealed and Cloud finds himself in the end.

[/FONT]

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

Ok, Sephiroth never had a tattoo. [FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

No he did, during the game he has a number 1 on his hand/arm/something I forget. It's mentioned a couple of times in the game, one being if you talk to Dio at Speed Square prior meeting Cait Sith in Wonder Square of the Gold Saucer. Though I'm thinking it could be a tattoo that Hojo gave Jenova, wouldn't the tattoo disappear when she takes on Sephiroths form? Squaresoft should have held back on all those fag breaks

 

[Miss Valentine]

No he did, during the game he has a number 1 on his hand/arm/something I forget. It's mentioned a couple of times in the game, one being if you talk to Dio at Speed Square prior meeting Cait Sith in Wonder Square of the Gold Saucer. Though I'm thinking it could be a tattoo that Hojo gave Jenova, wouldn't the tattoo disappear when she takes on Sephiroths form? Squaresoft should have held back on all those fag breaks

Either that or stopped wasting their time arguing with Nintendo at the time

Tbh I missed the whole Sephy having a tattoo thing, never really thought about it. Maybe Crisis Core will clear that up for us....

 

[Kurenai Lliandri]

AC doesn't count though because it's just a fire, not nibelheim on fire, black screen on fire, it's there for effect OR it is nibelheim but the animators were lazy

 

[Stella]

Ok, Sephiroth never had a tattoo. What'd be the point? The tattoo's were only a means to keep which clone was which for Hojo. Well, it was pretty obvious which one and who Sephiroth was (being his son an all....) Besides, it never really went into the books what Sephiroth really is, now did it? Otherwise, he would've known that he WASN'T an Ancient when he read all the books in the Shinra Mansion basement.

The experiements on him were utterly secret, thus marking him with a tattoo would rather defeat the purpose.


And LV, you're right on what you said in some points, but wrong in the details. Zack didn't resist the treatments becuase he'd been exposed to Mako before. It was because of his personality. Here, this short essay I wrote will describe the exact goings on surrounding Niblehiem and why it happened.

When Cloud was in Niblehiem, he did not reveal himself for who he was for certain reasons, but that's another story. He kept his identity secret until Sephiroth went mad and destroyed the town. Cloud followed him to the reactor where he saw Tifa attack Sephiroth and get badly injured. Cloud than attacked Sephiroth and stabbed him with Zack’s sword. He than ran back to check on Tifa. Sephiroth walked out and Cloud follows him. Sephiroth stabs him through the shoulder, however Cloud manages to throw him off the edge into the reactor. Cloud then passes out from the wound.

Now, if you've read the letter in Tifa's 'room' than this will all be very clear. Shinra soon showed up after Sephiroth had destroyed the town. Hojo ordered to have all the survivors rounded up for experimentation. This includes Cloud and Zack. Tifa, however, was rescued by her instructor and was saved. Anyways, the 'experiment' involves submerging the subject in Mako, which is very deadly.

You probably know all this, but I'll continue for the sake of those that don't. The Mako--Lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news-- for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind. It becomes nearly impossible to sort out one's own memories from the myriad different others that don't belong. If a person likes their life (Zack) then remembering who they are is not much of a problem. If a person doesn't like their life (Cloud) it's very easy to let go of what you don't want to be. This is how Cloud managed to confuse himself as being Zack. He lost his own identity and so created one for himself as something that he had always wanted to be: a member of SOLDEIR. He used Zack in particular because Zack always told him stories of SOLDEIR life.

[FONT=&quot]Cloud however was fortunate, so to speak, in this aspect. You see, he had something to become, something to latch onto and a story to back it up. The other Sephiroth 'clones' didn't have this and so completely lost themselves; they lost their identity. Their minds were broken and so Sephiroth could easily control them. I'll get back to this later.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The other part of the experiment is injecting the subject with Jenova cells. Now keep in mind that Shinra wasn't trying to create a 'Sephiroth clone' but actually a clone of an Ancient. This is because the Shinra needed an Ancient to lead them to the Promised Land, which they thought was full of Mako. Shinra injected them with Jenova cells because they thought that Jenova was an Ancient, which couldn't be more wrong. Anyways.... The Jenova cells transform, if you will, the cells around them; a mutation. These mutations can incorporate some of Jenova's powers to a limited extent. One could call Cloud a mutant and that would be correct. The Mako submerging is required to weaken the mind and thus the body's defense. With the defenses down, the cells can move in and 'attack' the normal cells. This is why Zack didn't change whereas Cloud did, because Zack was able to throw off the effects of the Mako and his body responded to the Jenova cells and killed them. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, this experiment was interrupted, otherwise it would have been successful. Zack managed to break out and free Cloud as well. And as you know, Zack was killed but Cloud was left to die.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now I'll get back to the part about the controlling the 'clones'. It must be made clear that Sephiroth is half-Jenova, so to speak. He is a half alien. There is a particular trait about this alien that must be brought up. This alien species can control every single cell individually. Ever seen that movie 'The Thing'? Same situation. The alien can control every cell. This also allows it to change shape at will. Since Sephiroth is a 'member' of this alien species, he retains the same trait of being able to control all of his cells. Now, it must also be made clear that Jenova is [/FONT]thoroughly [FONT=&quot]dead. However, Sephiroth can control the cells of his dead 'mother'. That includes the cells inside the 'clones'. So, Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells inside the 'clones' and Cloud to make them do what he wants. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](the 'Sephiroth' you see in the game--it isn't actually THE Sephiroth. It's actually the body of Jenova that Sephiroth shape-changed to look like him. The real Sephiroth is actually diffused within the Lifestream.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]With the clones it would be easy, just control their minds. With Cloud it would be a little trickier. Sephiroth had to manipulate the already messed up memories Cloud has, to make him believe one thing or another. Namely, that he was nothing more than a clone and that he never had a name, etc. As you can imagine this would be a huge blow to Cloud and resulted in him giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth. However, the plunge into the Lifestream allowed Cloud, with Tifa's help, to find a memory of his own that wouldn’t be susceptible to corruption. Basically it was the memory of why Cloud went to join SOLDEIR, but like I said, that's another story. The truth is revealed and Cloud finds himself in the end. [/FONT]

thanx for explaining that lol i thought the reason zack didnt forget who he waz waz because he had already been through all of the experiments and waz "immune" to them. thanx for clearing that up

 

[TOXICanticitizen]

Where specifically is it mentioned that sephy has a tat. I always assumed failed experiments didn't get a tat as Hojo says some where in disk 2. This leads me to believe there were other failed experiments like the Midger tube guy who happened to break free like Cloud and Zach, but went insane and died in the Midger slums due to its poor economy. Remember how Tifa found Cloud?
Ok Seph is the original first experiment so he doesn't need a tat he is a legend. nuff said. Cloud and Zack are among a Very small few.
confirmed:
-Zack
-Could
-tube guy
They for sure made it out (well not Zack he got shot almost made it.) Tube guy represents the nameless others who were in sector 3 or whatever that you never see. Since Cloud and Zack escaped first (guessing here) because the Nibelhiem incident with Seph was when things started to go bad. They were the first escapees. Tatto man was #2 see how it fits. So the first 3 Shina abominations to humanity: Seph Cloud and probably Zack.

sigh hows that for a first post.

 

[Aztec Triogal]

Read the letters on Tifa's desk and also watch Last Order. Explains everything.

The town was burned down. Shortly after, Hojo and his team turned up and captured any survivors (which includes Cloud and Zack). The survivors ended up being the experients in Hojo's plan to make a Sephiroth 'Clone' and ended up as the wandering Black Caped goons. Only Zangan escaped with Tifa and went to Midgar to find a decent doctor to make her better after her run-in with Sephiroth. Hojo ordered that the town was to be restored exactly and installed Shinra employees to help cover up the incident.

lol This thread was owned by this post... I skimmed the others but this one nails it. The fire actually happened. The town was rebuilt and the citizens of the town are cover up people from Shinra. The actual citizens died and were used in Hojo's JENOVA Reunion experiment. As Moonchild said, the only ones to escape were Zangan and Tifa. I'm not sure what all the other discussion was about... but if anyone's still curious, this is the answer.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

Where specifically is it mentioned that sephy has a tat.

When/if you speak to Dio first time you go to the Gold Saucer he mentions something about someone in a Black Cap with a tattoo of the number 1, looking for 'Black Materia' (this also explains how Cloud knows about Sephiroth seeking the Black Materia in the first place as their was no indication otherwise before Cloud says it at the hotel later on ) or something like that, I have to have another replay because it has been sooooo long. But thinking back, Sephiroth has the ability to manipulate and even manifest himself by using a body of a clone (just like he had done with Jenova) so maybe it was a clone in Sephiroth form whilst Jenova was still making it's way to the Gold Saucer? (as Dio mentions in his note after the Chocobo race that he met Sephiroth and tells the party which direction he's going).

lol This thread was owned by this post... I skimmed the others but this one nails it. The fire actually happened. The town was rebuilt and the citizens of the town are cover up people from Shinra. The actual citizens died and were used in Hojo's JENOVA Reunion experiment. As Moonchild said, the only ones to escape were Zangan and Tifa. I'm not sure what all the other discussion was about... but if anyone's still curious, this is the answer.

I always nail the threads. Rest of it was about the number tattoo on Sephiroth/Jenova and why it is there plot-wise as it shouldn't be really. Oh and some guy trying to back up the whole 'Zack is guy are sick from the slums' rumore.

 

[looneymoon]

When/if you speak to Dio first time you go to the Gold Saucer he mentions something about someone in a Black Cap with a tattoo of the number 1, looking for 'Black Materia' (this also explains how Cloud knows about Sephiroth seeking the Black Materia in the first place as their was no indication otherwise before Cloud says it at the hotel later on ) or something like that, I have to have another replay because it has been sooooo long. But thinking back, Sephiroth has the ability to manipulate and even manifest himself by using a body of a clone (just like he had done with Jenova) so maybe it was a clone in Sephiroth form whilst Jenova was still making it's way to the Gold Saucer? (as Dio mentions in his note after the Chocobo race that he met Sephiroth and tells the party which direction he's going).

I thought Seph was at the Northern Crater the whole time, and he just got his clones minions to do his dirty work. The clones had different numbers. Unless by taking on Seph's image, they'd probably take on his number aswell? Mehhh. Too tired to think clearly.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

I thought Seph was at the Northern Crater the whole time, and he just got his clones minions to do his dirty work. The clones had different numbers. Unless by taking on Seph's image, they'd probably take on his number aswell? Mehhh. Too tired to think clearly.

Yes he was and did use them, and that's my point. Why would a clone have a tattoo whilst in Sephiroth form as Sephiroth wouldn't of had one in the first place?

It matters not though. Kick ass gaem eitherway

 

[Bambi]

Someone in Corel also mentions tattoos saying a guy with a big number one on his arm walked by, he asks you if you like tattoos - saying it's something about a fad in the city - and depending on your answer he will tell you he say the guy with th number one walk by

Only decent explanation I can think of is what Moons said about the number one tattoo being put on Jenova

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

Someone in Corel also mentions tattoos saying a guy with a big number one on his arm walked by, he asks you if you like tattoos - saying it's something about a fad in the city - and depending on your answer he will tell you he say the guy with th number one walk by

Only decent explanation I can think of is what Moons said about the number one tattoo being put on Jenova

Ah, I KNEW it was mentioned somewhere else, just couldn't remember! ><