applet
Banned
But FF7 introduced a super hot bishie with a intruiging backstory and personality named sephiroth , . It is the game that transformed me and a bunch of other girls into rabid bishie fangirls. That's a huge plus. :3
Why the Final Fantasy VII Obsession Needs to End...Now.
kratoscar2008
Final Master
You are not helping the case here. And Sephirot didnt had that much of a personality he is just badass and you dont need personality for that.
I dont have an obsession with FF7 but i love the game and i dont want a remake or spin off, Cloud has been already fucked enough in the spin offs so please leave my memories unstained.
applet
Banned
Square is partly to blame for the ff7 obsession. They did hype up the game alot back in the day when it was one of the first 3d rpgs in an rpg-starved era.
Sanji Himura
ShinRa Guard
I agree. You are not helping your case here. All that proves is that the Japanese pop culture during that time period really heavily influenced character designs in Final Fantasy's official art work, and to a lot of western gamers who are not sensitive to that sort of thing is a big sticking point to them. Am I saying that they are wrong for doing so? No, but on the other hand, simply boycotting a game just for that is just over the line. As I have said in my first post in this thread, the game is pretty solid underneath that "bishie"-ness in the character design.
That may be true, but I also have to point out that not many RPGs made it out of Japan in that era. Basically, the only company that was churning RPGs out to the West is Square.
Jdeadevil
Blue Mage
Mmm, it's always discomforting when an intelligent sounding post like the one at the beginning of this thread pokes a negative comment toward FFX-2, I personally have a soft spot for that game because the story was well connected and I like the characters. I'm glad however to see someone explaining the innovation behind FFXII, because that'll remain one of my all-time favourites.
The cloud you will know has already changed. We cant expect things to stay the same. Plus the only thing that will change is voice acting. Dont you think its over dramatic to say? Clouds personality has changed in spin offs because the story called for it.
kratoscar2008
Final Master
VA can get a character to love or hate, as example FFVIII Selphie is like Vanille personality wise but what killed Vanille was her VA so i say VA can really ruin a game/character.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pD83hmKjr0
Sanji Himura
ShinRa Guard
It is the logic behind sequels is what I take away from the whole thing. To illustrate, take Enix's Dragon Quest franchise. Sure, you have the numbered sequels, but you notice that each one doesn't directly relate to each other as far as story is concerned. For nearly 14 years, Square did the same with the Final Fantasy franchise and more.
Final Fantasy means "Final" Fantasy. You have to take away from that is that the story that is being told in each numbered iteration is the final story in that particular world. One might argue that there are overlaps, but the mere coincidences of that happening is few and in between.
Shouldn't have Square have made X-2? Who knows, but you have to give the OP the point that it was that game that started the sequel mess in the first place.
judgie3
Omega
Im obsessed with Final Fantasy in general, FFVII just so happens to be a really good game within the franchise =D. I love all final fantasies for different aparent reasons. Although sephiroth to me is the most boss villian in the whole final fantasy universe.
I really wanted to like this game more than I do (I like it, I think it's a solid title), but when it came out, everyone I knew that didn't like RPG's ended up playing FF7, and got all over its jhank claiming no other game could ever compare.
To me, 7 is a reskinned 6. You have a lunatic antagonist (Kefka was a better villain anyway), you had your rebellion group against the empire, or in 7's case, Shinra, and a nearly identical magic system. Both antagonists want to destroy the world and make it something they believe would be the best, and yea, the story was already told prior to 7's release in FF6.
FF7 also has it's emo parts. Was it really necessary for Cloud to go all crazy? Nope. That being said, I do enjoy the game, but I grew tired of all the fanboyism based around this game, as well as all the spin offs Squeenix made to milk the FF7 title.
I'm actually surprised a lot of you feel this way about FF7, as you're a generation behind me. My generation of gamers who played FF7, it was their first FF game, and they refused to go back and play the originals. I started with the first one when I was 8 years old, and kept up with it as the series grew, and while I have a special place in my heart for the first one, I appreciate the later ones as well. FF7 is a solid title in its own right, but it's definitely not the best there is. 9 is a lot better IMO, simply for the fact it felt like Square was taking a moment to realize they needed to go back to their roots, and 9 was a pretty damn good game.
The era was not starved for RPG's at all. The PS1 came out when the SNES was at the end of it's life cycle, and the SNES has a boat load of RPG's (FF4, 6, Secret of Mana, Lufia 1 and 2, Breath of Fire 1 and 2, Secret of the Stars, Illusions of Gaia, Soul Blazer, Secret of Evermore, Earthbound, etc - all North American/World Wide releases, and if you want to get into the Japanese only market: Terranigma, Treasures of Rudra, Secret of Mana 2 {Seiken Densesu 3}, FF5, and boat loads more).
FF1, 2j, and 3j were 8 bit, FF4, 5, and 6 were 16 bit. FF7 was the first 32 bit Final Fantasy.
To me, 7 is a reskinned 6. You have a lunatic antagonist (Kefka was a better villain anyway), you had your rebellion group against the empire, or in 7's case, Shinra, and a nearly identical magic system. Both antagonists want to destroy the world and make it something they believe would be the best, and yea, the story was already told prior to 7's release in FF6.
FF7 also has it's emo parts. Was it really necessary for Cloud to go all crazy? Nope. That being said, I do enjoy the game, but I grew tired of all the fanboyism based around this game, as well as all the spin offs Squeenix made to milk the FF7 title.
I'm actually surprised a lot of you feel this way about FF7, as you're a generation behind me. My generation of gamers who played FF7, it was their first FF game, and they refused to go back and play the originals. I started with the first one when I was 8 years old, and kept up with it as the series grew, and while I have a special place in my heart for the first one, I appreciate the later ones as well. FF7 is a solid title in its own right, but it's definitely not the best there is. 9 is a lot better IMO, simply for the fact it felt like Square was taking a moment to realize they needed to go back to their roots, and 9 was a pretty damn good game.
The era was not starved for RPG's at all. The PS1 came out when the SNES was at the end of it's life cycle, and the SNES has a boat load of RPG's (FF4, 6, Secret of Mana, Lufia 1 and 2, Breath of Fire 1 and 2, Secret of the Stars, Illusions of Gaia, Soul Blazer, Secret of Evermore, Earthbound, etc - all North American/World Wide releases, and if you want to get into the Japanese only market: Terranigma, Treasures of Rudra, Secret of Mana 2 {Seiken Densesu 3}, FF5, and boat loads more).
FF1, 2j, and 3j were 8 bit, FF4, 5, and 6 were 16 bit. FF7 was the first 32 bit Final Fantasy.
purplewings
Chocobo Breeder
i know plenty of people who compare every ff game to ff 7 and totally write them off as "crap" ff7 was my first venture into final fantasy and is definitely one of the strongest in the series but a lot of people seem to think every other ff game is a let down in comparison and wont even finish them this makes me very sad
kratoscar2008
Final Master
If anything FF5 and FF8 are the tittles to suffer the more from the FF4 and FF7 fanboys. I think that the FF after 7 are good as FF7.
purplewings
Chocobo Breeder
ff8 definently suffers from insane over the top criticism from ff 7 fan boys from what i can tell anyway have a few friends that didnt even reach disc 2 of ff8 because "it wasnt as good as ff7" utter crap imo , cant really say much about ff4/5
There was a lot about FF8 that I didn't like, but I also be the first to admit that I'm not one for drastic change. FF1 through FF7, not a whole lot changed. FF8, a lot changed. Why fix/change what isn't broken? There's obviously a reason why the junction system never left FF8, as well as building your weapons and hunting for parts/manuals or whatever, as well as the GF's interaction/liking your characters. FF8 felt more like a social experiment to see if they could get away with changing familiar elements outside of the FF world, and it failed.
My friends like both ff8 and ff7. Two completely different games. Regardless its when ff started to innovate. But i dont think alot of people feel the same way your friends do.
I ayed ff8 before 7 so thats probably wjy i dont mind.
For ff4 it was a great game but because it came before ff5. Ff5 was criticized heavily since it didnt follow ff4's stepping stone
Final Fantasy II was the first to remove the whole " Four/ Five warriors collect the Crystals Formula " and completely change the system. Final Fantasy II. Since after the very first game, Square has been willing to experiment with changes.
Final Fantasy VII was the first Final Fantasy to have instead of the evil warlock or evil Empire they had a evil Government instead. Final Fantasy VIII also had the evil Government system, so that's not really much of a huge change to the Final Fantasy Formula.
Galbadia is just the same as Shrina Inc or Gesthal's Empire or even the Paramecian Empire. Even the Esthar Empire corrupted by Adel is the same, expect a little more realistic.
The Junction system is really no different from the Materia or Esper system. It's just a system that you use to use to get your characters more powerful and better as time goes along. It's just more complexed than the Materia or Esper system and less noob friendly. That's the only change.
The other changes actually help the game than destroy it. It was nice to experience Laguna's story and it was nice to be able to read and know Squall's thoughts. In fact I wish that the "reading the main character's thoughts " would return because it doubled in the character development and it was so much easier to relate to the MC.
The non- levelling up change is the only change to Final Fantasy that I can honestly picture is a huge change and wrong change. But that's only one big change that's a negative and damages the Final Fantasy Formula and Square realized that and they haven't used it since. But that's only one, so I don't see where this " Final Fantasy VIII was a whole different game completely " is coming from.
Square or SquareSoft back then loved to experiment and take risks and Final Fantasy VIII was a nice change. There's a good change and then there is a bad change. A excellent example of a bad change would be Final Fantasy XIII's one character controllable battle system. The Junction and drawing system and Card system can add hours into the game and is very addictive. It failed in your eyes personally, but I believe when given the chance that it's a very good system and can add extra playtime into the game and more time deeper into the universe of FF VIII.
I think I spent hours trying to find Triple spells to Junction to everybody's strength and Haste spells to Junction to everybody's speed and the earlier you find these spells the better, so it's great fun on CD 1 trying to find these spells and win Card games with NPC's and the Queen to have a beastly party and Squall that can one- hit kill Seifer during the Parade battle.
It's like FF VII's Materia set how you spend some time levelling up Bolt 1 etc as early as you can so you can feel like your party is extremely deadly.
So yeah, I really have to disagree with you that FF VIII made too many unique changes and bad changes to the game and Final Fantasy feel. The only bad change that Final Fantasy VIII made was that the monsters level up with you in my eyes, because that's a huge, huge, huge change. Final Fantasy has always been you fight monsters to level up.
Final Fantasy VIII is not Final Fantasy XIII where the changes are clearly there and are terrible changes. As mentioned before there is bad changes and good changes. And Final Fantasy VIII is a good refreshing change with really only one error, but it suffers from what I call " The Lion King effect " It's the game straight after the very big Mr Famous and fans dislike it because it's nothing like Mr Famous and therefore " It's bad ".
Anything that comes after Mr Famous is going to be hated because it's not Mr Famous and fans want more or something like Mr Famous.
When the Lion King came out which was the Mr Famous, any movie that followed after was deemed " awful " and didn't gain a huge amount in the Box Office because it was not the Lion King. So FF VIII suffers from this effect. If FF X or FF VI or FF VII itself just happened to be next in line it would be deemed bad and awful.
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Materia & Espers differ a lot from junctioning. Sure, you have to build up materia to be stronger, and same with espers, but there's no similarity.
Yes, Square changed the level up system of FF2, and you're no longer the heroes of light, but the rest of the game is the same as FF1. They saw that the new level system wasn't received well and went back to the traditional level system.
You can disagree with me, as I disagree with anyone who likes the game (I'm headstrong like that haha), but in all seriousness, it didn't just fail in my eyes. Ever wonder why you don't go finding your weapons or junctioning your magics in other FF's? It's because the system was received very poorly and FF8 received some of the worst feedback from FF fans. FFXIII with the control of 1 character, yes, that is pure trash, as is the straight line your hand is held for the entire game, and the BS achievement of getting all items, no gold/gil from monsters, and artificially creating a longer game by making it a grindfest. XIII-2 fixed some things, but Squeenix screwed FFXIII right from the start.
I will tell you what though, once I finish Dragon Quest 8, I will purposely play Final Fantasy 8 and give it a true, solid attempt and give it a fair shot.
Yes, Square changed the level up system of FF2, and you're no longer the heroes of light, but the rest of the game is the same as FF1. They saw that the new level system wasn't received well and went back to the traditional level system.
You can disagree with me, as I disagree with anyone who likes the game (I'm headstrong like that haha), but in all seriousness, it didn't just fail in my eyes. Ever wonder why you don't go finding your weapons or junctioning your magics in other FF's? It's because the system was received very poorly and FF8 received some of the worst feedback from FF fans. FFXIII with the control of 1 character, yes, that is pure trash, as is the straight line your hand is held for the entire game, and the BS achievement of getting all items, no gold/gil from monsters, and artificially creating a longer game by making it a grindfest. XIII-2 fixed some things, but Squeenix screwed FFXIII right from the start.
I will tell you what though, once I finish Dragon Quest 8, I will purposely play Final Fantasy 8 and give it a true, solid attempt and give it a fair shot.
I think this thread should be closed by now. In all seriousness, this thread only started because a certain XIII fan an excuse on why ff fans hate XIII (the so-called "VII" obsession) But thats not the case, VII had many things that previous and current FF games have and it's not ruining our ability to enjoy future games.
Sure, we may compare a bad FF game to VII, but thats only because it was well received, and many new fans haven't played the older ones such as ff1-6. ANd if there are those who want a remake of the original, thats probably because it was hinted in Crisis Core, given a tech demo for the PS3 and we have had received several spin offs and sequels to give us what the original could look like with updated graphics.
And for those who don't want a remake? i don't care. i do want one. ANd i'm not going to assume the worst just because the Cloud i know now isn't the Cloud i knew in the original, (because Crisis Core Cloud was Cloud seven years prior to the original, and Cloud in AC is 2 years after along with geostigma and guilt). The only way i can assume the worst is if MOtomu Toriyama is the head of Final Fantasy VII remake.
Sure, we may compare a bad FF game to VII, but thats only because it was well received, and many new fans haven't played the older ones such as ff1-6. ANd if there are those who want a remake of the original, thats probably because it was hinted in Crisis Core, given a tech demo for the PS3 and we have had received several spin offs and sequels to give us what the original could look like with updated graphics.
And for those who don't want a remake? i don't care. i do want one. ANd i'm not going to assume the worst just because the Cloud i know now isn't the Cloud i knew in the original, (because Crisis Core Cloud was Cloud seven years prior to the original, and Cloud in AC is 2 years after along with geostigma and guilt). The only way i can assume the worst is if MOtomu Toriyama is the head of Final Fantasy VII remake.
How is there no similarity ? Espers and Materia make you stronger and so does the Junction System. The Junction system as mentioned before is just less noob friendly and more designed towards the experts of the game or those who understand it straight away.
No it's not. FF 2 is nothing like FF 1. The levelling up, getting stronger system is different, you have guest party members, you do missions for a rebel group, and the bad guy is a Emperor and not a Time lord.
The FF 2 levelling up system was re-used in a different SquareSoft game. I believe it's the Saga Series.
Fair enough.
Well how come you don't do the Sphere Grid and FF X system again ?
How come you don't do the Materia like system again ?
How come you don't do the five members aka FF IV again ?
How come you don't do the start with your choosen party via FF 1 again ?
How come you don't do the FF VI choose your leader and main character again ?
How come you don't do the FF IX item system again ?
How come you don't do the Crisis Core Mission Start battle system again ?
As mentioned before Square loves to experiment and take risks and try and test new things. The only thing they have done more than once is the Job system and Guest Party [ FF 12 ] But there is TONS of systems that people loved and have never seen again. Just because you didn't like the Weapon System idea and believed that it failed doesn't mean that somebody else out there loved it and wishes for it to return.
But SE is always going to experiment and try new things unless they get a massive fan response [ The Job System lovers ] Just look at Lightning Returns coming out and how massively different it is to any Final Fantasy game ever made. FF XV and so-on is going to be a huge experiment too.
It's just the way SE works. They love to gamble and take risks, since Final Fantasy's birth was a huge risk by it's self.
The Weapon system could appear again, the Materia system could appear again, the FF X battle system could appear again. We never know. I bet that some of the older fans would of never believed for the FF 2 Guest Party to return with FF 12.
Every Final Fantasy has a different system, but Final Fantasy VIII gets the biggest bashing because it was made just after the all mighty FF VII.
If FF IX or FF X came after FF VII it would of gotten the negative treatment that FF VIII gets. Yes, FF VIII is different but so is every FF.
Remember that you don't have to stay for hours within a battle just to draw. You can draw as much magic as you want and just press the escape buttons and leave. Monsters sadly level up with you. Try not to get Odin till after CD 3 [ He'll be a pain in the ass otherwise ] and look up a walk-through to win at Cards. Learn Card Mod ASAP and do the Queen of Cards challenge so you can get the Kiros Card which will lead to 100 hastes and your party members being super quick and fast really early in the game. And good luck. BTW sorry if I sound rather forceful, I just support FF VIII SO much and believes that it needs more love and FF VII while it is a brilliant game it has causes FF VIII to be hated for so many wrong reasons.
In my eyes, FF 8 is that nerd with the huge un-even black shaded glasses, pimply face, crooked teeth, science/ math lover that gets picked on for being "different " and gets picked on for not being society's perfect vision of what a teenaged boy should look like. That poor soul that gets the wet-willy and flushed down the toilet and is actually a nice guy inside, just very different and unique looking.
You like a good argument, I see
First, and foremost (aside from the fact I'm drunk), I don't use walkthrus
Never have, never will 
I'll attempt to answer/rebuttal the things you've mentioned, but I can't promise that I'll address everything lol.
Espers/Materia/Junctioning thinger:
Espers will allow you to learn Magics as you gain Ability points (or whatever FF6 calls it). Upon level up, you gain a +% bonus. Materia doesn't do that, neither does junctioning. Materia you can level up the spells by using it/keeping it equipped in battle, making it appear that your character is learning abilities and extending them through combat. Junctioning requires you to milk the monsters for their magical abilities and then some. Very different than learning X magic after X fights/using it X times/whatever, and keeping properties after the skills is learned. I'm sorry, but being noob unfriendly or not, junctioning is pure crap. If it was a reasonable/logical move to that step, it would have been included in the 5 core series games after it's induction, but it wasn't. Majority rules in favor of me in that one
FF2j: I shouldn't be making any arguments about this game as I haven't fully played through it yet. I'll admit defeat on that one for the time being. However, my counter argument to the level system used in another franchise other than FF is this: that series isn't nearly as popular as FF, and has yet to be seen in a final fantasy game since. The system isn't a bad one, but it doesn't fit the FF universe. Magics you still have to purchase (from what I remember), and the "keyword" memorization, while unique and different, didn't catch on. There's reasons why some of these "features" didn't make their way into other games in the series.
Copy/Paste from the quote with responses:
Well how come you don't do the Sphere Grid and FF X system again ?
You do, in FFXII.
How come you don't do the Materia like system again ?
Because it was already done in FF6?
How come you don't do the five members aka FF IV again ?
No need for 5 members in the party. FF4 in Japan was considered one of the hardest FF games, which 5 characters is actually required.
How come you don't do the start with your choosen party via FF 1 again ?
FF1 was primitive and Square didn't know how to tell the tale of 4 individual characters at once, so they made it a generic format. It was the first game of the series, and it was ground breaking, especially for its time. You can't compare FF1 to FF 72.96. It's the game that started it all; it gets a free pass
How come you don't do the FF VI choose your leader and main character again ?
Are you referring to the side missions / forced quest missions in Narshe? If so, that's irrelevant, since you can't choose leaders of your groups, aside from that one time in Narshe, and even then, there's no designated "Leader", it's more like "who do you want in your group for 3 groups?". Purely irrelevant. That's like saying "why doesn't Keebler make chocolate chip soft batch cookies?".
How come you don't do the FF IX item system again ?
Refresh my memory on this. I haven't played 9 in about 8 years.
How come you don't do the Crisis Core Mission Start battle system again ?
Spin off games don't count.
the weapon system will never return to FF series, I will put $$ on that. The materia system could reappear again, and it would be better than this crap sphere grid jhank, and better than what 13 offers.
I can't comment on the FF2j to FF12 guest part thing, yet.
If you truly believe FF8 received such a backlast because it wasn't as good as FF7, you're sadly mistaken. It wasn't as good as any FF game to date. I will play the age card here (much to my dismay) as I was 19 when FF8 came out (I think? Maybe 20 or maybe 18), but I saw first hand on why people, at the time, despised FF8, and it had nothing to do with FF7. The game, in general, sold poorly, was poorly received, and was poorly designed.
You have to remember, people my age, and the majority of RPG'ers at the time (not the 9 - 12 yr olds who played their first FF game in 1997) had FF1, 4, and 6 to compare to FF7 and 8. FF7 to the generation of gamers at the time was "wow, this game looks great, but feels like previous FF's" to "holy fuck, what the fuck did they do in FF8?!", as well as the "um... where did FF 4, 5, and 6 go?!"
There was a time when anyone outside of Japan had no idea wtf was going on when it went from FF3 to FF7. Your "FF8 suffered the Lion King Effect" is pure myth after 11 years. It's not the case. FF8 is truly a bad game in 90% of the worlds eyes.
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