Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

Please put more effort in your post, say why you think he is stronger, thank you
 
Yikes, some these posts are rather passionate. I obviously think Cloud is stronger... but if you were to stack them side by side when they fought Sephiroth in Nibelheim's Mako Reactor, then the decision would be harder to make. If still think I would go with Cloud as a stronger individual, as he is the one who tossed Sephiroth into the lifestream but Zack was probably the stronger fighter.
 
well in ff7 last order cloud successfully stabbed sephiroth and zack didn't so... idk... what that means.... but i think cloud is stronger, but if i were to choose a favorite i'd have to say zack!
 
Emone said:
well in ff7 last order cloud successfully stabbed sephiroth and zack didn't so...
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Sephiroth was also so fixated on Jenova, that he didn't notice Cloud coming. I believe Sephiroth proceeded to waste him after that moment. o_O Eh, besides the whole falling off of the reactor thing. Still. Cloud caught him at a weak moment.
 
I think the answer is simpler than what it seems to be, from what I have read of this thread. All we have to do is look at the subtext and the recurrent themes throughout the compilation.

I don't want to come off as a Cloud fanboy because I am certainly not, but I would like to add that one of the main reason people are drawn to him and find his story so powerful and endearing was because he was strong, even though he was weak at the same time. He is a weak boy with huge self-esteem issues, but the strength he has to keep hold of his mental stabilies and instabilies put him in contrast with Sephiroth.

This is also the tragedy of Sephiroth's character; though Cloud and he were in the same/similar situations, Cloud had loved ones in his life to strengthen him. Sephiroth, on the other hand, didn't really have a chance as he didn't have anyone he loved/loved him except Jenova, who only encouraged his descent into madness. Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't beat CC yet) but this point is nailed down even harder
in Crisis Core, as we see Angeal and Genesis forcibly removed from his life.

So we can really sit here and debate the practical reasons why Cloud, a weak ShinRa grunt, took down the most renowned first class SOLDIER in the world but it really comes down to this - Cloud's defeat of Sephiroth was to convey Cloud triumphing where Sephiroth could not. Yes, obviously at this point Zack would be more refined as a fighter than a rookie like Cloud, but that really defeats the purpose of the scene in relation to the rest of the game. Cloud the hero, with the support of his friends will ALWAYS beat Sephiroth; and Sephiroth, a lonesome and tragic figure, will always lose. I don't think you even need the rest of the compilation to establish this point, even though I think it does help to support it (except for Lost Order, which totally changed the scene for no understandable reason I can come up with.)

Now, having stated why Cloud is stronger than Sephiroth, the question of Cloud vs. Zack is a little more presumptuous.
In Crisis Core, we have an ongoing theme of the mentor/student relationship - sepcifically between Angeal/Zack, and Zack/Cloud. We see through the course of the game Zack becoming a "restless puppy" into a true hero. Like any coming of age story, there is a part where the student outclasses the master (ie. the killing of Angeal). This relationship follows through to Zack/Cloud, where Zack is now the mentor and Cloud becomes the student (passing down of the Buster Sword). If it were that Zack was, throughout the entire course of the Compilation, stronger than Cloud, then the entire theme established in Crisis Core would not really serve a purpose. Thus, we can see throughout FF7 and Advent Children, how CLOUD develops from a broken nutcase into a true hero. See the similarities? So we can presume from this that yes, as Zack outclassed Angeal in Crisis Core, Cloud outclassed Zack in FF7.

Oh my, that ended up WAY longer than I had intended. Feel free to critique or what have you :)
 
here is my take on the subject.....

Zack is stronger than Cloud at the end of CC and beginning of ff7 but during the course of ff7 Cloud gains strength equal to Zack, however near the end of the game, after the mideel-lifestream event and Cloud finds himself, he surpasses Zack and by the time Ac rolls around.....yeah
 
i think Cloud is the best
zack did very well but in the long run cloud kicks Sephy's butt

so its hard to say what one is best really
 
*In my own opinion Zack is stronger, in the game his profile is elite soldier same level as sephiroth. now cloud is a soldier but a grunt level,i think :D, so why does cloud & and sephy pawn zack? its just because theyere the main characters of the game :) now if theyd fight head on skll to skill, i think zack wouldnt be an easy opponent to beat, if id had to be in real life Zack would slay them all! :D clouds a weak emotional fool who causes too much drama in the anime and the game :)
 
Cloud and Zack... Hmm.... They are so alike that it's hard define who is stronger.

Zack did meet the requirements for SOLIDER since he was able to tolerate the Mako Infusion and Jenova cells and keep his ego (personality) - so point for him.

Cloud did not meet those same requirements but still survived (barely) the same medical procedures but his ego wasn't intact - so he's weaker than Zack in this aspect.

Physical strength is kinda moot when it comes to SOLDIER requirements since ANYONE can train to meet those requirements, assuming that they are 'normal' or not 'medically tampered with'.

However, after the escape from Nibelheim makes things extremely different.

Zack had no effect and was able to bounce back enough to make it to Midgar with Cloud who was currently incapacitated. This was due to his previous SOLDIER medical conditioning.

Cloud on the other hand was severely affected from those procedures and was pretty much left for dead in that specimen pod. But he still survived. Then after then events was all said and done, he physically recovered and his fighting skills matched Zack (at the end of the PSX game). The mental recovery came later but he did survive and recover (at the end of AC).

So the running score is

Zack - SOLDIER +1, Journey to Midgar +1
Cloud - Survival/Recovery (physical and mental) +2

Then I ponder the long-term effects of Cloud's recovery that appear to far exceed a standard SOLDIER's abilities and training (AC - fight with Bahamut Sin). So that could very well be a mis-conceived notion that Cloud is stronger than Zack, but with Zack dead... we really will never know. So I'll look at these points that happened back when he was around.

Therefore, there are both are the same in strength with Zack in the physical department, and Cloud in the Survival/Recovery department.

.... Or is it?

I just read a little more in this thread that involved Crisis Core and Sephiroth.

Zack fought against Sephiroth first the end result was that he was incapacitated. Sephiroth (who is unphased by that battle) directed his attention to his mother which left him open to a cheap shot by Cloud.

Then Cloud's mistake was the same as Sephiroth which was direct his attention to an severely injured Tifa.

Now this is the final indicator of character strength... Zack ordered Cloud to kill Sephiroth. Well during that scuffle, Cloud was quickly disarmed, impaled and still he did the job by knocking Sephiroth off the platform.

So is it dumb luck or was it the fact that he did the job after he was disarmed?

With that, Cloud would have to take the final point in being stronger.
 
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Well, there's also the fact that Zack was able to beat Genesis and the entire shinra military except for 3 soldiers.

It's possible that when they experimented on Zack and Cloud, Zack became much more powerful as well as Cloud. This would explain his massive feats after this point.

If this happened there's really no telling who was stronger since there isnt really any indicator of just how strong Genesis became or just how big the shinra army really was.

So yes, Zack could be the strongest character in the entire FF7 series by the end of CC. But it's not likely. I still like to think he was though :P
 
Because I can

I'm going to repeat everything I've said before.

Zack is stronger than Cloud.

A lot of people like to debate that Cloud is stronger than Zack because he actually killed Sephiroth. However, Sephiroth was not wounded when he fought Zack, and getting stabbed in your back with a giant sword can really do wonders to your mobility, believe it or not.

Furthermore, in the end of CC, Zack defeated Genesisl, who was Sephiroth's equal, even after his body had been effected by his incompatibility with the Jenova cells. Then after that, was his final stand. He fought Shinra troops from daylight to nightfall, and was shot to death.

He also defeated Angeal. Meaning, he defeated all but one of SOLDIER's legendary 1st Class.

Cloud has never shown such power and endurance.

His singlemost greatest achievement was sucker punching Sephiroth and drowning him in Mako, since as Ultimania Guides state that Sephiroth lets Cloud when every time after he took him down in the Nibel reactor. Sephiroth's only goal is to make Cloud suffer.

I know, it sounds ridiculous. But hey, I don't decide the truth, SE does. I'd also like to believe that Oathkeeper (he made some posts a few pages back iirc) was not being petty and posting false information about the Ultimania Guides since I cba to check the ultimania guides and im willing to take his word for it :monster:
 
if zack hadnt died cloud wouldnt be stronger and zack will be stronger cloud got stronger because cloud made a promise to zack to live that is
 
I'd say that Zack at the end of CC and Cloud at the end of AC are roughly equal. Cloud beat Bahamut Shin, Safer Sephiroth and AC Sephiroth. Zack defeated Bahamut and Bahamut Fury, Genesis Avatar and Minerva. Cloud has some crazy inner strength he can unleash when his friends need him, Zack has double the Jenova and mako of a normal SOLDIER. They've both done some equally amazing things and are incredibly powerful, I'd love to see them team up and watch the Buster Sword and First Tsurugi fight together.
 
This question would be so much easier if had played Crisis Core.

However going to go based from last Order and the original game and say that Zack is stronger mentally, while Cloud is stronger physically.

Cloud is one of those humans that don't know their own strength, but when used correctly Cloud's physically is very a very strong character. However is mind so weak, it lets his own lack of self doubt over control him and others [ like Hojo, Sephiroth]
mess with his inner mind and cause him to have a confused head and breakdown.

However Zack is pretty strong physically too, but don't think he could ever have the inner power or the inner strength to lift up Sephiroth's sword and toss him away.
Though Zack is usually the cheery, optimistic , positive- thinker type and isn't really the type to let harsh words or insults by others get in his way in life, or Sephiroth or Hojo mind games- he's the type to shrug things off and/ or plot things through carefully. Hopefully really need to play Crisis Core to give out a stronger answer.
 
I don't think there is an enemy that Zack defeated in CC that FFVII or AC Cloud couldn't defeat. The thing that pushes Cloud in the lead though is beating Sephiroth. He is supposed to be the strongest being in the FFVII Universe, and Cloud always emerges victorious. I'm not a fan of either character, and it's great to see people finally realize that Cloud is not all that, but to me Zack will always be the guy who couldn't beat Sephiroth, as good a fighter as he was.
 
This is quite a tough question. I have played most of the FF7 games and watched all the movies out. My final result would have to be Zack. I spent a lot of time into CC back when I had it. I got 100% on everything I could possibly get. While I was playing one of the missions, I noticed some kind of deity that surpassed Genesis and could possibly be stronger than Sephiroth. That being- Minerva- is eventually defeated by Zack Fair and he is henceforth known as "The Soldier Legend". Sephiroth may be top soldier but Zack became a legend. My reasoning to why Zack never beat Sephiroth is that he died and never got to beat him. All the times Cloud fights Sephiroth, he is beaten and tossed aside by the most renown soldier. However, it's because Sephiroth undermines Cloud that he losses in the end. You see, every time Sephiroth belittles Cloud he gets less serious and pays the price in the long run. This can be seen in all of their battles.

Why then, at the time, did Sephiroth go all out on Zack? Well, I'm not going to lie. Zack, by the end of CC, could probably have taken on Sephiroth and be at equal levels with him. But during the Nibelheim scene Zack got his ass handed to him by Sephiroth. Obviously, Sephiroth knew Zack's potential as he trained with him. Sephiroth fought seriously against Zack Fair and he didn't give him a chance to deal damage. Now a newcomer called Cloud takes the buster sword and tries to defeat Sephiroth. Since Sephiroth was already content with defeating Zack he had nothing to fear. Sephiroth was caught off guard because he did not consider Cloud a threat. At the end of that battle, Sephiroth was toying with Cloud and was mocking him. That's when Cloud got serious and did what he did. That's when Sephiroth fled the scene. So now you know what happened.
 
na na nana

Zack- 99,999 HP
Cloud - 9999 HP

Who's drawing the short straw.

Anyways Zack beat Sephiroth in Crisis Core but in FF7 it looked like Zack was defeated. So its hard for me to really use that as proof. Cloud on the other hand beat Sephiroth with honor several times in FF7, FF7cc, FF7Ac, and kingdom hearts II (I think he does in KH). ANyways I think Zack was stronger but its still a debate.
 
Zack didn't beat Sephiroth in Crisis Core, he just put up a much better fight.

The thing you have to remember about Nibelheim is that Zack was not at his peak there. Right after Nibelheim Zack was given extra Jenova cells and mako due to Hojo, making him even stronger. We know according to the CC Complete Guide or 10th anniversary Ultimania(I can't remember which), that Genesis and Sephiroth are combat equals. Zack not only owned Genesis after he was healed from his degradation, he also defeated G when he was merged with the goddess materia and drawing power from the lifestream. If he had his extra boost during Nibelheim things could have gone differently.
 
Sora_lion_heart said:
Zack- 99,999 HP
Cloud - 9999 HP

Who's drawing the short straw.
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In character debates, the use of game mechanics really limits discussion and leaves a fairly simple answer, especially if they're two different games. :awesome:

Sora_lion_heart said:
Anyways Zack beat Sephiroth in Crisis Core but in FF7 it looked like Zack was defeated.
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explain pl0z :monster:

SOLDIERis1337 said:
Zack didn't beat Sephiroth in Crisis Core, he just put up a much better fight.

The thing you have to remember about Nibelheim is that Zack was not at his peak there. Right after Nibelheim Zack was given extra Jenova cells and mako due to Hojo, making him even stronger. We know according to the CC Complete Guide or 10th anniversary Ultimania(I can't remember which), that Genesis and Sephiroth are combat equals. Zack not only owned Genesis after he was healed from his degradation, he also defeated G when he was merged with the goddess materia and drawing power from the lifestream. If he had his extra boost during Nibelheim things could have gone differently.
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People are putting bullshit in my head.

I thought that Zack was being fucked up by the Jenova cells because he was incompatible with them?

/lets out an angry roar
 
If Zack was incompatible with Jenova cells he would have made a terrible SOLDIER....

The problem was that Genesis couldn't use Zack's cells because as a SOLDIER his cells had already adapted to Jenova matter, so the "S cells" Hojo put into him were bonded to his already Jenova infused cells. Genesis and Hollander assumed that Cloud's were just kind of lying dormant in him, so they would be usable. And it wasn't just the cells, Zack also got a lot of extra mako from the procedure, powering him up more as well.
 
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