Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

[The_Oathkeeper]

Cloud has Zack beat. Sephiroth defeated Zack at the Nibelheim reactor whilst Cloud defeated Sephiroth. This alone proves that Cloud could whoop Zack any day of the week. And then there's his wicked limit, Omnislash.:cloud:

...I apologize, good sir, but you will have to kindly excuse me for one moment. I will reply to your post just as soon as I vent out some of this nerd rage.

...

GRRRCLOUDDIDNOTBEATSEPHIROTHINAFAIRFIGHT!!!

...

*shakes fist*

Okay...sorry about that.

Now, then, to phrase the above message more...eloquently, Cloud never actually overpowered Sephiroth in a legitimate, one-on-one duel where both of them were going all-out. The first time they met, Cloud ran Sephiroth through with the Buster Sword (whose blade is about as large as Sephiroth himself is...). Having his spinal chord ripped in half, losing a significant portion of his blood, and having his body nearly torn into two pieces by a heavy iron blade put Sephiroth at a distinct disadvantage. If he had any semblance of his actual strength, he would've casually tossed Cloud aside far easier than he did Zack. I guarantee that he wouldn't even have been able to put up a fight. Even then, he only survived because of a sudden burst of adrenaline, which is not a skill unique to Cloud. The second time the two meet in battle, Cloud is being aided by seven other skilled fighters. The third and final time they cross swords, Sephiroth isn't even taking Cloud seriously. He holds back all of his abilities except for swordsmanship and flight, and even then, he's dominating the battle and even refuses to kill Cloud when he has the chance.

I really wish people would stop using that as an example of Cloud's superiority...I've probably refuted that over a dozen times in this thread alone. Seriously, Cloud never beat Sephiroth in a fair duel. He never even came close. I certainly don't mind debating this topic to death, but at least bring up evidence that wasn't already countered many times before in the thread.

 

[blood-stainedblade]

I hate to say it but cloud is stonger but if it werent for zack cloud wouldnt have survived as long as he did

 

[Rockojoe2]

i would go with zack... cloud woulda been dead if it werent for zack and basically.... cloud got a lucky hit on sepheroth when he got him from the back D:

 

[fesl]

Simply Zack is stronger because he gave the buster sword to cloud at the end

 

[ThEgIfToFtHeGoDdEsS]

cloud is stronger than Zack, even from the start...

Mod Edit: Please can you elaborate on your post a tad bit more and say why you think Cloud is stronger. Thank you.

 

[L]

cloud is stronger than Zack, even from the start...

Mod Edit: Please can you elaborate on your post a tad bit more and say why you think Cloud is stronger. Thank you.

I think oathkeeper has finally let a bot take over his account to counter every Cloud > Zack statement with no strong evidence so I can stop feeling sorry for him.

But please, enlighten us.

You may want to check the past few posts oathkeeper has made that are really long.

But I'm going to give you a few reasons for you to make a better argument first, though.

Cloud never fought Sephiroth on his own (or could even hold his own against sephiroth in a fair fight), much less defeated him by himself.

Zack only died because of the experiments that weakened his body.

Cloud never showed that he had as much might as Zack did, either. The battle with shinra soldiers being a perfect example.

From the beginning, Cloud was a lowly grunt that couldn't even hold a Lab Researcher still.

 

[Tenken]

Haha so people are saying Sephiroth let himself get killed by Cloud?? Btw this topic is stupid how the hell could you know who is stronger unless the 2 fought against each other.

 

[Rydia]

Haha so people are saying Sephiroth let himself get killed by Cloud?? Btw this topic is stupid how the hell could you know who is stronger unless the 2 fought against each other.

Why post if you think the topic is stupid?

Tenken people are just theories as to whether or not Cloud or Zack was stronger. Since the two never fought against each other, we can only make conclusions based on what we have seen of each character.

 

[Aeon Teleos]

Maybe up until his death, Zack was the stronger of the two. But afterward, Cloud slowly began to evolve in a more powerful warrior. Plus; it was Zack who inspired him to carry on. So, in a way, it was a mentor-apprentice situation, where, though the former was initially the stronger and wiser one, the latter caught up and became just as effective.

Also, I think Cloud's real strength should be judged after he recovered from his catatonic phase in FFVII -- when he finally realized his past and true potential -- that he was no longer Sephiroth's marionette.

 

[ThEgIfToFtHeGoDdEsS]

uhhmmm... now i think that both of them are stronger cause i played the Crisis core and advent children and i think their about the same..

 

[Tenken]

Why post if you think the topic is stupid?

Tenken people are just theories as to whether or not Cloud or Zack was stronger. Since the two never fought against each other, we can only make conclusions based on what we have seen of each character.

I can post my Opinion right? thats why i post and say that i think the topic is stupid. This is something you can never know who's stronger.


But those replies about Cloud Vs sephiroth in AC not being a fair fight are dumb aswell

I Quote

The third and final time they cross swords, Sephiroth isn't even taking Cloud seriously. He holds back all of his abilities except for swordsmanship and flight, and even then, he's dominating the battle and even refuses to kill Cloud when he has the chance.

Come on what kind of crap is this? Lmao do i really need to go into this, because this is the dumbest comment i have heard so far

 

[ahsie]

I just spent about 3 hours or so reading through this whole thread and boy my view were changed. And poor Oath dude, everyone kept on ignoring you. I used to get ignored back in my other forums and yes, it's a shi**y job.

As for my view, I personally believe that if we take Crisis Core into account, Zack most likely is superior by just a tiny bit, but there are a few other minor factors that should be slightly considered when we can surely say Zack is superior. And usually these factors usually happen because of the different games/movies.

For example, yes, Sephiroth was arrogant and could have kicked and blitzed Cloud into the heavens in AC, but if the so-called telekinesis would have worked as it did in FE7 in the end against 8, I'm sure Sephiroth could have activated telekinesis during his time of trouble when Cloud activated his super Ominslash. I mean, as fast as Omnislash is, the speed of thought is even faster. By that logic, if Sephiroth's telekinesis really is as kick ass as the original FE7 made it out to be, Sephiroth wouldn't have lost even in AC when he was carefree. In matter of fact, I even went back and checked. Just for Omnislash to set up around Sephiroth, 4 seconds is needed. 2 seconds later, Sephiroth should know he is in trouble because he just got slashed once. About 6-8 seconds later, Cloud finishes him up. If Sephiroth's telekinesis works as well as it does, Sephiroth had MORE than enough time to activate it.
Based on this, it means either means Sephiroth wasn't able to use telekinesis in combat (therefore nullifying part of the argument against Cloud) OR the cross game/movie caused some inconsistency, which is what I'm aiming at and therefore we shouldn't count that against Cloud.
Oh yeah, one more note of telekinesis. If telekinesis is TRULY capable of blowing apart units, then FF7 isn't possible. You want to know why? Because if 8 units had trouble with Sephiroth before the grand battle, then 3 units would definitely get royally screwed by Safer Sephiroth's telekinesis. Or better yet, if Sephiroth is finding difficulty "splitting" and "tearing" 8 individuals, he mind as well release one guy and tear the other 7 up. That way, he can just blitz the remaining guy and win. Of course, as you might have realized, this is an incosistency in the original FF7 itself, but personally, I don't believe this should be counted against Cloud.

Another more direct example that would more relate to this topic would probably be Zack's power inconsistency between the 2 games. In the original FF7, Zack was shown in the cutscene to go to the Jenova "containment" place to fight Sephiroth, but he gets kicked back out on top of a capsule about 5-10 seconds later. Obviously, Zack just got his ass pwned and didn't even put up anything close to a fight. If we were to take this interp of Zack's combat skills, Zack is HIGHLY likely inferior; however, for gameplay reasons in Crisis Core, Zack HAD to fight a Sephiroth who had Octoslash and other super magic or else.... the gameplay would just be flat out akward. I mean, how weird would it be to fight a Sephiroth who has nothing but Masamume attacks? How weird would that be? Try imagining that. Furthermore, I'm sure for gameplay reasons, you can't just get your ass manhandled within 5 seconds or else what kind of game is that? I personally believe, they had to raise or possibly overpower (in our mind) Zack against Sephiroth to make CC a... game. Again, due to different protagonist and different game reasons, there is inconsistency. And since part of the overpowering comes from the requirement of making CC a game, I think Sephiroth's magic use should mainly fit within the "gameplay" realm and not the story and actual realm of the conversation. Oh and besides, Sephiroth technically never "used" magic against Genesis either, but we all seem to agree that he was trying right? I hope I'm making sense. As such, if we go by the original game, Sephiroth might have "tried", but he only needed 5 seconds to screw Zack. Or, if you do feel like going by the CC interp(which is what Oathkeeper's argument is all based on), you can probably make the argument that the lifestream powered Sephiroth's abilities BOTH phyiscally and spiritually by the time Cloud faced him. You want to know why I believe so? Think mako energy. As Sephiroth said, SOLDIERs are "showered" by Mako energy and therefore gain incredible physical abilities not possible by a normal human. This includes wielding a 100+ lb sword with ease or jumping 100+ feet. Since Mako energy in many ways is similar and actually of the same origin as the lifestream, I don't get why getting "showered" in the lifestream (which should actually be denser and more effective than the Mako energy) wouldn't raise the physical limits of Sephiroth even farther. By that logic, the comparison to use Zack from a CC interp of keeping his own against Sephiroth for 1-2 minute and since Cloud got owned by a sword wielding Sephiroth in AC wouldn't make a legit comparison (which I disagree on, but we'll get to that). In matter of fact, that comparison shouldn't be made to determine whether Zack is stronger than Cloud. As such, neither should Genesis=young Sephiroth be in this discussion because if lifestream has the same properties as the Mako energy, Sephiroth should have improved ages above or at least significantly enough to own Zack and Genesis by the time Sephiroth faced Cloud in AC. If anything, that would be an argument that techincally helps Cloud.

Another example is summons. I don't remember if it was mentioned, but I remember reading it somewhere. Some people claim that Zack>Cloud because Zack could single handely defeat essentially a Bahamut Zero by himself while Cloud and his gang had millions of trouble against an inferior Bahamut that looks like Neo Bahamut (the wings are similar). Well..., you have to realize there exists an inconsistency from the movie and game difference. For example, you can summon Bahamut Zero 3 times and still might not destroy Elena, Rune, and Reno near the end of the FF7, but a Neo Bahamut (or whatever) could give the whole FF7 gang and definitely Rune and Reno more than enough to handle. Or better yet, this argument is very inconsistent in CC itself. Zack might have defeated Bahamut to get his summon Materia, but Zack can summon Bahamut 3 or 4 times and still not defeat his opponent. Does that mean Semi-hard boss is >> Zack? Hell no. Again, summon creditials in favor for Zack is again too inbalanced and IMO shouldn't be part of the argument. If so, Cloud has no ground in this discussion.

Other things that are at least noticeable during the course of the debate is that while Cloud did fight as a group against Sephiroth, Cloud is arguably more tired. Physically speaking in the immediate period, Cloud has already gone through Jenova Synthesis and through the whole Northern Crater of enemies. Speaking long term, Cloud's journey is a testament of Cloud's fatigue while Sephiroth has been resting since... I don't know. The journey fatigue that I speak of is technically more mental than physical and in that department, Sephiroth already has an advantage. So IMO, Sephiroth fatigue is no excuse in the final battle as Cloud by that logic would be fatigued a million times more especially mentally. To comprehend this, just think of sports. Most teams perform better in the beginning and gradually get weaker near the end because of mental fatigue. Of course, there are exceptions, but I'm sure mental fatigue is a factor to at least consider. Now, there are many people wondering whether Sephiroth's battle with Cloud's "spiritually" really happened, but if it didn't, why show it? And AGAIN, if Sephiroth is so kickass with telekinesis, why didn't he stop Cloud's or technically ANYONE's super attacks before he was defeated? I mean, it wasn't all 6 on 1 (not 8 on 1) the whole time. It was 6 on 1, then 3 on 1, and finally 1 on 1.
In this sense, the final combat is a "legit" victory which would place Cloud above Sephiroth and naturally Zack, but the arrival of AC changed all that. Again, for what the 3rd or 4th time? Inconsistency between movies and games or sometimes game and game. And I will acknoweldge that we don't know the spirtual world well enough to know whether or not Cloud gained an advantage or not. So I agree that it shouldn't be used.

As for my opinion (which I concede is not neccesary going to be agreed upon) on the fight between Sephiroth and Cloud during AC, I would believe that Sephiroth wasn't completely toying with Cloud the whole time. I do realize that Sephiroth held back some of his magic(and besides, he also didn't use any magic against Genesis, but I know you guys all agree that he was trying), but I personally believe that was more of a skill balancing issue in the movie because Cloud also didn't have any Materias to use magic. If Sephiroth had magic and Cloud doesn't, wouldn't it make a unfair match even more skewed? Furthermore, as for the actual sword combat, Sephiroth wasn't toying... and some people did mistranslate. It's not outclassed, but outmatched or as someone said earlier, Sephiroth didn't exert himself. What this DOESN'T mean is that Sephiroth was fighting with only 50% of his Masumume skill, but rather that once Sephiroth gained the upper hand after 5 minutes of intense non-stop combat, he decided to not "exert himself" or finish him off when he had the chance. An example? Look at the one that Oathkeeper constantly talked about. Sephiroth could have finished Cloud with the stab once Cloud was fatigued; however, this doesn't suggest that Sephiroth wasn't trying before and he certainly looked trying. Sephiroth may look like he is having a good time, but that's more of Sephiroth's "cool" style. You want to know why I believe so? Look at the part when Cloud got fatigued. When he got fatigued, Sephiroth started to show his immediate and obvious dominance where Cloud struggled and couldn't do anything but retreat. THAT is what I call "toying" or "playing". The previous 5 minutes of non-stop heat is not "toying" as Cloud was holding on. True, Sephiroth showed superior speed, but Cloud could still hold his own. In this case, it is called "outmatched", but not outclassed. I'm not trying to be semantical. It's just how it is. If you think Sephiroth was fooling with Cloud, then you could also say the same for Sephiroth's brief combat with Angeal and Genesis. Sephiroth said, "Is that the best you can do?" and "Give it your best try." He's still taking the combat seriously, but there still remains that atmosphere of arrogance, which is the SAME as the one he showed Cloud. If some of you really want to pick on Cloud for the way Sephiroth was battling for the initial 5 minutes, I can also nitpick about Sephiroth's combat against Angeal and Genesis (which is part of the support for Zack>Cloud). For fairness sake, I think we can give Cloud the benefit of the doubt and I warranted why(the sudden change in dominance after Cloud's fatigue=toying). You may also try to argue telekinesis or transportation, but none of those really make sense. Telekinesis for one has WAY too many inconsistency even within ONE game itself without crossing to a movie or previous game. As for transportation, there is no need to not use it if he really had it. If you are "playing" or "toying" with your opponent, you would show your dominance and bounce him all around rather than make it seem like Cloud is actually putting up a fight(which I mentioned a few sentences earlier). Since some know DBZ (based on previous posts ages ago), think of Freeza at 50% power vs. pre-Super Saiyan Goku. Even though Freeza was toying with Goku, he was still showing dominance and Goku didn't seem like he was putting up any type of fight, which is similar to how Sephiroth treated once Cloud collapsed of fatigue. Anyhow, that is just my opinion and part of the reason I personally believe (from my perspective at least) Cloud is the 2nd strongest in the FF7 Universe. My belief is further supplemented based on what I see of the Lifestream's effect on Sephiroth's spiritual and phyiscal limits. If Cloud could hold his own for 5 minutes (remember, balancing is needed. So withholding magic is not a legit excuse and Sephiroth didn't exactly use any magic either against Genesis "trying") and Zack had trouble with the 2nd weakest Sephiroth known to us (the weakest being the one against Genesis), Cloud does seem superior.

After all this inconsistency, do I personally feel there is an true clear cut answer? No. There is no true answer, but upon the surface analysis of Crisis Core, Zack does seem slightly superior; however, the answer isn't a... solid and clear answer. You can argue that the gameplay forced SquareEnix to make Zack more powerful than he should be or stronger than he seems. In ways, if you look past some of the inconsistencies, Cloud could and IMHO should be deemed superior such as Zack's massive screwage in the original FF7 by Sephiroth and Cloud being able to briefly hold himself against Sephiroth. And if you REALLY want a semi decent answer, you have to look within one game for consistency and if we go by ORIGINAL FF7, Cloud is without too much of a doubt superior. If we go by CC FF7, it might be Zack, but as I said a million times, there is just too much inconsistencies, and gameplay for THAT game (CC) may cause people to seem overpowered. Finally, in the case if you TRULY want to cross compare movies with games or games with other games, you have to try to keep everything as consistent (and balanced) as possible. What I mean is that you have to realize certain portions or sections of movies/games force a person to become stronger or weaker due to circumstances for the game. Cloud's non-magic combat vs. Sephiroth is an example. Zack's magic full combat vs. Sephiroth would be another. It's exactly because of balancing issue that the comparison between Zack and Cloud is so hard; however, as I said, IMHO, Cloud seems superior once all the balancing are done because it should come down to a few instances once the balancing is done. 1. By AC, Cloud and Sephiroth are just far beyond or at least a level stronger than that of a Soldier 1st Class(the 2 would be classified as God Class if there was one), but Sephiroth is clearly superior. As for Zack, he is elite even within 1st class (due to his performance against Genesis/Angeal), but still is a lot weaker than the Sephiroth AC who is supposed to be ages or A LOT stronger than the Sephiroth he once was against Zack (refer to lifestream logic). 2. Zack is weaker than he seems in CC due to FF7, which would clearly place Cloud ahead of him. As such, I'm of belief that Cloud is superior when the balancing are done, but I'll again admit that it's hard to say that for a clear hard fact because of the inconsistency everywhere.

And oh yeah, thank god Sephiroth couldn't use magic in AC because Cloud COULDN'T either. Remember? Cloud got his Materias stolen(no one EVER brought this up when the argument is against Cloud). In matter of fact, I believe the argument about how Cloud got his ass handled against Kadaj and his gang is an inadequate one because Kadaj and his gang were using CLOUD'S own POWERED UP and most likely MASTERED MATERIAS against him. If Cloud had the extra boost from the Materias, I'm sure Cloud could easily overwhelm the whole Kadaj gang within seconds (and the geostigma most likely weakened Cloud). Or, if you want to stretch this into gameplay, you can argue that Kadaj was just too weak to not able to summon Knights of the Round or even Bahamut Zero and that if Cloud had his hands on his Materia, he would have owned anybody(Ultima Magic itself could blow Kadaj away in a few blows). There is a huge difference with and without Materias. Try imagining Zack trying to handle them. I doubt he would do any better (and most likely worst). And if you still aren't convinced of the difference Materias make, just think of how you would do in FF7 at the battle area. You would have to fight 8 straight combats by yourself. Sure, you might win, but if you have no Materias, I highly doubt you'll go all the way even if you're at a kickass level 99.

Anyhow, sorry for the stucture, I haven't written a post in ages. Glad to be here.

 

[TrueSephiros]

I disagree on your comments with Cloud>Sephiroth Ahsie, considering there really shouldn't be any argument, as SE has stated themselves very clearly that Sephiroth is the most powerful entity/being within the FFVII Universe. His level of thinking is stated to be well beyond that of a human, and the mere reason why Cloud is left "winning" as stated is simply for the fact that Sephiroth enjoys toying with his opponents then to downright blow them out of the water.

It's no different then to how the Joker doesn't go out to crush Batman outright, or the mere fact that Luthor knows everything about Superman and all of his weaknesses but chooses to not destroy him outright...yet the heroes always somehow come out on top.

These are some of the most well established villains in history, and after 50+ years....they still can't beat these heroes. So I take into consideration that to what happens with Sephiroth has also occurred with some of the best and greatest well known created antagonist of our time.

Another thing is, plot also plays a huge role into this...the badguy usually is supposed to lose, regardless of how much more powerful they are over the protagonist. So even though Cloud "has" beaten Sephiroth, he is in no way more powerful then Sephiroth.

However, enough of me really derailing the whole thing, so to get back on topic, if you want my opinion, I honestly say that Post-AC Cloud is more powerful then Zack.

"Had" it of been Pre-FFVII Cloud, then I would easily say Zack, however Post-AC Cloud is no longer a Cloud in doubt of his own abilities and now has the mental toughness (Something that he has been battling with for years) along with his psychical talents to overcome any obstacle, which is what really pushes him over Zack.

 

[ahsie]

I disagree on your comments with Cloud>Sephiroth Ahsie, considering there really shouldn't be any argument, as SE has stated themselves very clearly that Sephiroth is the most powerful entity/being within the FFVII Universe. His level of thinking is stated to be well beyond that of a human, and the mere reason why Cloud is left "winning" as stated is simply for the fact that Sephiroth enjoys toying with his opponents then to downright blow them out of the water.

It's no different then to how the Joker doesn't go out to crush Batman outright, or the mere fact that Luthor knows everything about Superman and all of his weaknesses but chooses to not destroy him outright...yet the heroes always somehow come out on top.

These are some of the most well established villains in history, and after 50+ years....they still can't beat these heroes. So I take into consideration that to what happens with Sephiroth has also occurred with some of the best and greatest well known created antagonist of our time.

Another thing is, plot also plays a huge role into this...the badguy usually is supposed to lose, regardless of how much more powerful they are over the protagonist. So even though Cloud "has" beaten Sephiroth, he is in no way more powerful then Sephiroth.

However, enough of me really derailing the whole thing, so to get back on topic, if you want my opinion, I honestly say that Post-AC Cloud is more powerful then Zack.

"Had" it of been Pre-FFVII Cloud, then I would easily say Zack, however Post-AC Cloud is no longer a Cloud in doubt of his own abilities and now has the mental toughness (Something that he has been battling with for years) along with his psychical talents to overcome any obstacle, which is what really pushes him over Zack.

Actually, I never did say Sephiroth was inferior. In matter of fact, if you look at the context as a whole, I defitnitely agreed and said MUTIPLE times that Sephiroth was clearly superior(and hopefully implied that he's the best in the FF7 universe), but not by ages ahead of AC Cloud as some posters claim it to be. If you think I said Cloud>Sephiroth because of my "final battle" in FF7 comment, I did mention that though that fight is "legit", the circumstances of the battle "spiritually" is unknown and therefore I AGREED that we can't take that into account of a measure in Cloud's skill level relative to Sephiroth's. Besides, I did acknowledge that the Sephiroth in AC could have finished off a fatigued Cloud, but didn't. What that meant was that improved-AC Cloud can handle most-powerful Sephiroth for 5 minutes, but then eventually lose (skill wise). I think at that point, it's pretty obvious that I acknowledge Sephiroth's superiorty.

However, Sephiroth never toyed with Cloud in AC and I warranted that through my reasons in the previous post. For reasons that I'm too tired to post again, I'll just briefly summarize. Sephiroth doesn't toy around, but rather fights with a level of confiedence and arrogance that makes him seem like he is toying. He did the same with Genesis and Angeal, yet everyone agrees that he took them seriously. You can tell when a fighter is toying with someone as the person getting screwed is going to be beat around like a pinball, but Cloud still held his own even though Sephiroth was clearly superior in speed. If Sephiroth was already superior by that much of a margin, there was no need to mess around for 5 minutes when you can accomplish and get the same satisfication in say 2 or 3 minutes. Afterall, toying and playing in the combat sense deals more with a could have finished him off, but decides to beat him around to show who's boss. The only time that happened between Cloud and Sephiroth was after Cloud jumped way high after the instense debris free fall fight and then Cloud became fatigued. At that point, we could tell Sephiroth was playing/toying because he was pushing, shoving, stabbing Cloud and Cloud couldn't put up any resistance. That is playing in the combat sense. The previous 5 minutes of hardcore combat is not "playing" and it didn't look like it in anyway at all. There wasn't one moment where Sephiroth could have clearly struck down Cloud. Cloud was matching blow for blow.

As for the discussion that you got back on about Zack, I don't think it's that. I mean to a degree, yes, Cloud doubted himself even in the beginning of AC, but it's not an ability doubt. He always had confiedence in his ability. In matter of fact, it's more of a mental toughness doubt. What I mean by mental toughness deals with the ability to deal with confusions and harsh times. During those times, Cloud needs a little push (usually by Tifa or maybe Aerith) to get back on track; however, I don't believe Cloud ever doubted his own ability. So in terms of fighting combat ability, I'm pretty confiedent Cloud surpassed Zack sometime during FF7 (though there is no clear answer when), but as a overall CHARACTER, Cloud only surpassed Zack in the middle of AC. I'll once again reiterate that the answer is unclear, but from my game/game/movie balancing perspective, Cloud is superior and clearly ahead of Zack by a significant margin by AC.


*EDIT/off topic to the above*: I just started a new FF7 game yesterday and I'm currently at D1 in the Shinra Company. Here, I noticed that Cloud at level 14 has barely more than 2X the stats of a level 13 3rd Class SOLDIER. While stats aren't a good comparison of how good someone is because it's gameplay and should grow over time, but it can still tell you how good someone is by telling you how much stronger someone is in a relative term. For example, if Cloud has more than double the stats of a 3rd Class SOLDIER at the same level, we can confiedently say that Cloud is more than a match against a 3rd Class SOLDIER and EXTREMELY likely superior to a 3rd Class SOLDIER. However, since I have yet to face a 2nd Class SOLDIER and compare him to Cloud in a relative term, I can't say whether Cloud has reached to the level of a 2nd Class SOLDIER. But, at this point, I can confiedently say Cloud, at a point slightly before the 1st half of D1, is far beyond the typical 3rd Class and potentially is already a 2nd Class (but probably still not past Zack at the beginning of CC since Zack was already elite within 2nd Class).
Anyhow, this was just something curious that I thought I would post.
*edit again* After just posting the above, I again remembered that the stats are actually completely unrealiable since there is a point in the game where enemies just become off the charts in terms of stats. For example, Reno, Rude, and Elena each have over 20,000 HP, but they clearly are inferior to Cloud and his gang. Therefore, the above can only be taken into consideration, but not used as a full evidence for or against someone.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Come on what kind of crap is this? Lmao do i really need to go into this, because this is the dumbest comment i have heard so far

Yes, as a matter of fact it would be nice if you tried to actually support your arguments instead of calling BS on someone who provided solid evidence for himself. Especially considering, you know, the fact that I'm 100% correct.

And...Yeesh...This is the longest post I've ever responded to, ahsie...*sigh* Oh, well, go beyond the impossible, kick reason to the curb, and all that. *cracks knuckles*

I just spent about 3 hours or so reading through this whole thread and boy my view were changed. And poor Oath dude, everyone kept on ignoring you. I used to get ignored back in my other forums and yes, it's a shi**y job.

No, no, it's quite alright. I'm used to it...Though I'm glad there are those who sympathize with me.

As for my view, I personally believe that if we take Crisis Core into account, Zack most likely is superior by just a tiny bit, but there are a few other minor factors that should be slightly considered when we can surely say Zack is superior. And usually these factors usually happen because of the different games/movies.

I can't say I'm sure what you're getting at, considering it's generally accepted that the most recent entry in a series is regarded as the definitive canon, but hey, I'll bite.

For example, yes, Sephiroth was arrogant and could have kicked and blitzed Cloud into the heavens in AC, but if the so-called telekinesis would have worked as it did in FE7 in the end against 8, I'm sure Sephiroth could have activated telekinesis during his time of trouble when Cloud activated his super Ominslash. I mean, as fast as Omnislash is, the speed of thought is even faster. By that logic, if Sephiroth's telekinesis really is as kick ass as the original FE7 made it out to be, Sephiroth wouldn't have lost even in AC when he was carefree. In matter of fact, I even went back and checked. Just for Omnislash to set up around Sephiroth, 4 seconds is needed. 2 seconds later, Sephiroth should know he is in trouble because he just got slashed once. About 6-8 seconds later, Cloud finishes him up. If Sephiroth's telekinesis works as well as it does, Sephiroth had MORE than enough time to activate it.

That can also be countered with Sephiroth's arrogance. You see, Sephiroth had never seen Omnislash Ver. 5 before. He was probably under the assumption that Cloud was going for a normal Omnislash, which he also thought he could handle without the use of any of his other special abilities. What you have to remember here is that Sephiroth had something to prove to Cloud. He wanted to make it perfectly clear that he could easily defeat him on his own terms (swordsmanship). He wanted to show Cloud that, even in the area of his expertise, Sephiroth was still superior. When the swords surrounded him- something that doesn't happen during a regular Omnislash- he became a bit disoriented, but still wanted to render Cloud utterly hopeless by showing him that even his new super attack was completely futile. Hell, if Sephiroth wanted to avoid the attack altogether, telekinesis wouldn't have been necessary at all. He could've just traveled slightly upwards, leaving Cloud to fly around like a moron for several seconds. Before that point, Sephiroth had shown reflexes more than sufficient for pulling that off, but he didn't take any action at all. I mean, really, do you honestly think that Sephiroth is incapable of flying a few feet upwards in four seconds? It seems pretty obvious that he only took on the Omnislash directly because he thought he could tank it.

Based on this, it means either means Sephiroth wasn't able to use telekinesis in combat (therefore nullifying part of the argument against Cloud) OR the cross game/movie caused some inconsistency, which is what I'm aiming at and therefore we shouldn't count that against Cloud.
Oh yeah, one more note of telekinesis. If telekinesis is TRULY capable of blowing apart units, then FF7 isn't possible. You want to know why? Because if 8 units had trouble with Sephiroth before the grand battle, then 3 units would definitely get royally screwed by Safer Sephiroth's telekinesis. Or better yet, if Sephiroth is finding difficulty "splitting" and "tearing" 8 individuals, he mind as well release one guy and tear the other 7 up. That way, he can just blitz the remaining guy and win. Of course, as you might have realized, this is an incosistency in the original FF7 itself, but personally, I don't believe this should be counted against Cloud.

I actually think that, canonically, all eight of the combatants took part in the final battle against Safer Sephiroth. It's just that we only see three of them because, well, gameplay and all that. I don't seriously think that Square would go to the trouble of showing all eight of the PCs falling into the abyss, only for five of them to mysteriously disappear. With that being said, it could then be assumed that Sephiroth didn't use his telekinesis again for the duration of the battle, having realized that, if it didn't work the first time, it wouldn't work a second time. Alternatively, let's say that he did restrain seven of the combatants and then attempt to blitz the remaining one. Okay. So what's he going to do if the remaining combatant attacks him while he's concentrating on the other seven? A sword through the face, a swarm of bullets through your body, or a shuriken jammed in your chest might make it a bit difficult to focus on keeping the others restrained, don't you agree?

Another more direct example that would more relate to this topic would probably be Zack's power inconsistency between the 2 games. In the original FF7, Zack was shown in the cutscene to go to the Jenova "containment" place to fight Sephiroth, but he gets kicked back out on top of a capsule about 5-10 seconds later. Obviously, Zack just got his ass pwned and didn't even put up anything close to a fight. If we were to take this interp of Zack's combat skills, Zack is HIGHLY likely inferior; however, for gameplay reasons in Crisis Core, Zack HAD to fight a Sephiroth who had Octoslash and other super magic or else.... the gameplay would just be flat out akward. I mean, how weird would it be to fight a Sephiroth who has nothing but Masamume attacks? How weird would that be? Try imagining that. Furthermore, I'm sure for gameplay reasons, you can't just get your ass manhandled within 5 seconds or else what kind of game is that? I personally believe, they had to raise or possibly overpower (in our mind) Zack against Sephiroth to make CC a... game. Again, due to different protagonist and different game reasons, there is inconsistency. And since part of the overpowering comes from the requirement of making CC a game, I think Sephiroth's magic use should mainly fit within the "gameplay" realm and not the story and actual realm of the conversation.

I could argue that we simply didn't "see" the full duration of the fight in FF7 (because it probably would've been rather boring if we were forced to watch the door to the Jenova chamber for several minutes before Zack was finally thrown out), but I'm just going to say that's a retcon. Now, that's not to say that I think Zack was fighting equally with Sephiroth, but I can honestly say that I think he lasted more than 5-10 seconds. Yes, he got his ass pwned, but it took a little while for that to happen. Really, it's a two stage fight, and we see cutscenes before and after each of them. I somehow doubt that Sephiroth shattered the glass floor immediately after landing there, especially considering that he and Zack were standing in different positions after the fight and were, I believe, closer to one another. Maybe that's just me looking too deeply into things; I just think it's extremely unlikely that the fight lasted a mere 10 seconds, given that it was, in fact, a two-stage fight. If Square really wanted to spice things up simply for gameplay purposes, they probably would've just made it one really long battle. I believe that they meant to imply that some kind of fight took place there. As for your argument against Octaslash and such? I don't really see what's so hard to believe about it. Even so, there's nothing to suggest that he didn't have access to it. Gameplay=/=Storyline only really works when gameplay contradicts what we see in the story itself, such as Cloud taking only 30 damage from a machine gun or Sephiroth destroying the solar system with Meteor. In this case, there's nothing to suggest that Sephiroth can't use Octaslash; in fact, I believe it's even mentioned in the Ultimania, but I'm not positive on that. However, I will say that it's true that Pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth couldn't use Magic, at least without Materia. Post Nibelheim, though? That's a different story entirely.

Oh and besides, Sephiroth technically never "used" magic against Genesis either, but we all seem to agree that he was trying right? I hope I'm making sense. As such, if we go by the original game, Sephiroth might have "tried", but he only needed 5 seconds to screw Zack. Or, if you do feel like going by the CC interp(which is what Oathkeeper's argument is all based on), you can probably make the argument that the lifestream powered Sephiroth's abilities BOTH phyiscally and spiritually by the time Cloud faced him. You want to know why I believe so? Think mako energy. As Sephiroth said, SOLDIERs are "showered" by Mako energy and therefore gain incredible physical abilities not possible by a normal human. This includes wielding a 100+ lb sword with ease or jumping 100+ feet. Since Mako energy in many ways is similar and actually of the same origin as the lifestream, I don't get why getting "showered" in the lifestream (which should actually be denser and more effective than the Mako energy) wouldn't raise the physical limits of Sephiroth even farther. By that logic, the comparison to use Zack from a CC interp of keeping his own against Sephiroth for 1-2 minute and since Cloud got owned by a sword wielding Sephiroth in AC wouldn't make a legit comparison (which I disagree on, but we'll get to that). In matter of fact, that comparison shouldn't be made to determine whether Zack is stronger than Cloud. As such, neither should Genesis=young Sephiroth be in this discussion because if lifestream has the same properties as the Mako energy, Sephiroth should have improved ages above or at least significantly enough to own Zack and Genesis by the time Sephiroth faced Cloud in AC. If anything, that would be an argument that techincally helps Cloud.

Yes, it's true that Sephiroth never used magic against Genesis, but I do agree that Sephiroth was unable to use Magic without Materia in CC. That was a skill that seemed to be unique to Genesis, as Magic was his specialty while Sephiroth's was melee combat. As for your "Post-Nibelheim Sephiroth is stronger" argument, I admit it sounds pretty sensible on the surface, but not when you really take into consideration what happens during the SOLDIER treatment. First of all, Mako is refined Lifestream, in some ways similar to Materia. In its purest form, Lifestream doesn't seem to offer any physical benefits to humans. In fact, prolonged exposure to it can cause extreme brain damage. A dip in the Lifestream itself presumably wouldn't enhance Sephiroth's physical abilities, considering it has to be refined into Mako before it can actually be used as enhancements for humans or as a fuel source. Additionally, the SOLDIER treatment doesn't merely involve the introduction of Mako to a person's body. Jenova cells are also involved, along with, apparently, an operation of some sort. Just the Lifestream alone wouldn't have much of an effect as far as physical enhancements go. There's also the simple fact that the feats Sephiroth pulled off in Advent Children were no more impressive than the ones he pulled off in Crisis Core. Even if he did receive some sort of additional boost in physical strength, he still didn't use it against Cloud. Before Crisis Core, I would've agreed that Sephiroth was physically stronger after Nibelheim, but after seeing him fight in that game, I can't say that I see any improvement.

Another example is summons. I don't remember if it was mentioned, but I remember reading it somewhere. Some people claim that Zack>Cloud because Zack could single handely defeat essentially a Bahamut Zero by himself while Cloud and his gang had millions of trouble against an inferior Bahamut that looks like Neo Bahamut (the wings are similar). Well..., you have to realize there exists an inconsistency from the movie and game difference. For example, you can summon Bahamut Zero 3 times and still might not destroy Elena, Rune, and Reno near the end of the FF7, but a Neo Bahamut (or whatever) could give the whole FF7 gang and definitely Rune and Reno more than enough to handle. Or better yet, this argument is very inconsistent in CC itself. Zack might have defeated Bahamut to get his summon Materia, but Zack can summon Bahamut 3 or 4 times and still not defeat his opponent. Does that mean Semi-hard boss is >> Zack? Hell no. Again, summon creditials in favor for Zack is again too inbalanced and IMO shouldn't be part of the argument. If so, Cloud has no ground in this discussion.

I'm going to have to call "lol gameplay" on this, I'm afraid. Yes, you can summon Bahamut Zero and still not destroy Elena, Rude, and Reno, but on that note, Cloud can also get pumped full of several hundred bullets and not even slow down. Cloud can also hit a random ShinRa Grunt with his sword and not kill him in one hit, Barret can pump a normal wolf full of led and it won't die, Sephiroth can hit Cait Sith with a supernova and not kill it, etc. Summons in Gameplay obviously don't hit as hard as they would in the storyline. Oh, and the Bahamut summoned against AVALANCHE was Bahamut SIN; it wasn't actually seen in the original Final Fantasy 7. Anyway, yes, I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. It's fairly obvious that gameplay=/=storyline, especially given that summons are shown to destroy large parts of the landscape that somehow manage to regenerate after they disappear. The fact of the matter is that Zack has shown himself capable of killing Summons numerous times in one-on-one battles, whereas Cloud has never shown that level of power. There's no inconsistency here, it's a simple matter of the storyline dictating that Zack has achieved something that Cloud hasn't.

Other things that are at least noticeable during the course of the debate is that while Cloud did fight as a group against Sephiroth, Cloud is arguably more tired. Physically speaking in the immediate period, Cloud has already gone through Jenova Synthesis and through the whole Northern Crater of enemies. Speaking long term, Cloud's journey is a testament of Cloud's fatigue while Sephiroth has been resting since... I don't know. The journey fatigue that I speak of is technically more mental than physical and in that department, Sephiroth already has an advantage. So IMO, Sephiroth fatigue is no excuse in the final battle as Cloud by that logic would be fatigued a million times more especially mentally. To comprehend this, just think of sports. Most teams perform better in the beginning and gradually get weaker near the end because of mental fatigue. Of course, there are exceptions, but I'm sure mental fatigue is a factor to at least consider. Now, there are many people wondering whether Sephiroth's battle with Cloud's "spiritually" really happened, but if it didn't, why show it? And AGAIN, if Sephiroth is so kickass with telekinesis, why didn't he stop Cloud's or technically ANYONE's super attacks before he was defeated? I mean, it wasn't all 6 on 1 (not 8 on 1) the whole time. It was 6 on 1, then 3 on 1, and finally 1 on 1.

Pretty much every RPG in history has had a lead-up to the final boss. Nobody tries to argue that Zidane could've beaten Super Trance Kuja because the team had to go through Deathguise first, or that Cecil>Zemus because his team had to go against Zeromus beforehand. Besides, Sephiroth was still getting beaten on by eight people who, canonically, had access to Materia (several of which can heal the target). Whether or not they're a bit tired, 8-on-1 is just not fair. Even so, Sephiroth was also holding back Holy. Now, I admit, we don't know what sort of effect this actually had on him, but I'm sure he wasn't just sitting there chilling out all that time. As for Cloud's battle against Sephiroth in the Spirit Realm? They showed it because it was meant to represent Cloud's will overpowering Sephiroth's and tearing his soul to shreds (keep in mind that Sephiroth had already gone through having his body ripped apart). Sephiroth was trying, once again, to take control of Cloud's body, sort of as a last desperate attempt at saving himself. The battle was showing Cloud fighting off Sephiroth's influence and remaining in-control. Yes, it happened, just not as a physical duel.

And yes, it remained 8-on-1 the whole battle...well, until the symbolic fight.

In this sense, the final combat is a "legit" victory which would place Cloud above Sephiroth and naturally Zack, but the arrival of AC changed all that. Again, for what the 3rd or 4th time? Inconsistency between movies and games or sometimes game and game. And I will acknoweldge that we don't know the spirtual world well enough to know whether or not Cloud gained an advantage or not. So I agree that it shouldn't be used.

Of course, even if the duel actually, physically happened, Sephiroth had still just finished getting the snot kicked out of him by eight/six people. There's never been any inconsistency; Sephiroth has always been superior to Cloud. The duel was spiritual and took place immediately after Sephiroth had gotten his body literally annihilated. In addition to that, Sephiroth's "will" was what held back Holy. I imagine his will was part of his soul, rather than his body, so the fact that he was fighting in spirit form may very well have put him at something of a disadvantage. But honestly, I don't know if there there was even a literal clashing of swords. The duel was symbolic, and doesn't even speak for the physical fighting capabilities of either combatant.

As for my opinion (which I concede is not neccesary going to be agreed upon) on the fight between Sephiroth and Cloud during AC, I would believe that Sephiroth wasn't completely toying with Cloud the whole time. I do realize that Sephiroth held back some of his magic(and besides, he also didn't use any magic against Genesis, but I know you guys all agree that he was trying), but I personally believe that was more of a skill balancing issue in the movie because Cloud also didn't have any Materias to use magic. If Sephiroth had magic and Cloud doesn't, wouldn't it make a unfair match even more skewed? Furthermore, as for the actual sword combat, Sephiroth wasn't toying... and some people did mistranslate. It's not outclassed, but outmatched or as someone said earlier, Sephiroth didn't exert himself. What this DOESN'T mean is that Sephiroth was fighting with only 50% of his Masumume skill, but rather that once Sephiroth gained the upper hand after 5 minutes of intense non-stop combat, he decided to not "exert himself" or finish him off when he had the chance.

It's not just that he held back his magic, but, rather, that he held back everything except his skill with the Masamune, even in situations where it would've been quite useful to him. Why not just use telekinesis to hold Cloud in place at the very beginning? Why not turn intangible to avoid some of Cloud's attacks? What happened to Supernova, Octaslash, and Iakiri? Anyway, the "Cloud has no Materia" argument isn't very solid, either, because, at this point in the storyline, Magic was inherent skill of Sephiroth's. He could have used it without Materia, at least to some extent, whereas Cloud needed it to use even the simplest of spells. Back in the days of Crisis Core, he did, because he was just a normal SOLDIER. His Mako/J-Cell enhancements only enhanced him physically (with few exceptions, such as Iakiri and his teleportation, which could be compared to stuff like Cloud's Blade Beam). After his dip in the Lifestream, he gained the "knowledge of the Ancients", which included the ability to perform Magic naturally. Anyway, as far as his skill with the Masamune, there's the fact that Sephiroth was taunting Cloud throughout the fight and never once hinted that he was taking it remotely seriously. The smirk never once left his face, he threw Cloud around like a rag doll, and mocked him openly from beginning to end.

An example? Look at the one that Oathkeeper constantly talked about. Sephiroth could have finished Cloud with the stab once Cloud was fatigued; however, this doesn't suggest that Sephiroth wasn't trying before and he certainly looked trying. Sephiroth may look like he is having a good time, but that's more of Sephiroth's "cool" style. You want to know why I believe so? Look at the part when Cloud got fatigued. When he got fatigued, Sephiroth started to show his immediate and obvious dominance where Cloud struggled and couldn't do anything but retreat. THAT is what I call "toying" or "playing". The previous 5 minutes of non-stop heat is not "toying" as Cloud was holding on. True, Sephiroth showed superior speed, but Cloud could still hold his own. In this case, it is called "outmatched", but not outclassed. I'm not trying to be semantical. It's just how it is. If you think Sephiroth was fooling with Cloud, then you could also say the same for Sephiroth's brief combat with Angeal and Genesis. Sephiroth said, "Is that the best you can do?" and "Give it your best try." He's still taking the combat seriously, but there still remains that atmosphere of arrogance, which is the SAME as the one he showed Cloud. If some of you really want to pick on Cloud for the way Sephiroth was battling for the initial 5 minutes, I can also nitpick about Sephiroth's combat against Angeal and Genesis (which is part of the support for Zack>Cloud). For fairness sake, I think we can give Cloud the benefit of the doubt and I warranted why(the sudden change in dominance after Cloud's fatigue=toying).

Yes, it's true that that example alone doesn't prove that Sephiroth was toying with Cloud throughout the fight. However, there's also the fact that Sephiroth openly mocked Cloud from beginning to end, whereas Cloud grunted in effort or frustration pretty much every time their swords clashed. Cloud was obviously exerting effort where Sephiroth was totally relaxed. Sephiroth didn't just begin showing dominance when Cloud was falling over out of fatigue, that's just where it culminated in Sephy outright refusing to take an opportunity to kill him. In addition to that, the fact that Cloud was hardly able to keep himself on his feet while Sephiroth was still flipping around without even breathing heavily shows that Cloud expended much more stamina than Sephiroth did. The fact that Sephiroth didn't slaughter Cloud when he had the chance is just the most obvious example, which is why I use it so much. Sephiroth is always a cool-headed fighter, but you can tell when he gets serious in a fight. Genesis's/Angeal's fight against Sephiroth was just a friendly sparring match between buddies. Any "mocking" that goes on there was nothing more than friendly banter. He was genuinely mocking and belittling Cloud despite being in a serious duel where the world itself is on the line. And again, how do you explain Cloud's frustrated grunts? His extreme fatigue compared to Sephiroth not having slowed down at all?

You may also try to argue telekinesis or transportation, but none of those really make sense. Telekinesis for one has WAY too many inconsistency even within ONE game itself without crossing to a movie or previous game. As for transportation, there is no need to not use it if he really had it. If you are "playing" or "toying" with your opponent, you would show your dominance and bounce him all around rather than make it seem like Cloud is actually putting up a fight(which I mentioned a few sentences earlier). Since some know DBZ (based on previous posts ages ago), think of Freeza at 50% power vs. pre-Super Saiyan Goku. Even though Freeza was toying with Goku, he was still showing dominance and Goku didn't seem like he was putting up any type of fight, which is similar to how Sephiroth treated once Cloud collapsed of fatigue. Anyhow, that is just my opinion and part of the reason I personally believe (from my perspective at least) Cloud is the 2nd strongest in the FF7 Universe. My belief is further supplemented based on what I see of the Lifestream's effect on Sephiroth's spiritual and phyiscal limits. If Cloud could hold his own for 5 minutes (remember, balancing is needed. So withholding magic is not a legit excuse and Sephiroth didn't exactly use any magic either against Genesis "trying") and Zack had trouble with the 2nd weakest Sephiroth known to us (the weakest being the one against Genesis), Cloud does seem superior.

His telekinesis is not inconsistent. It's always shown to be capable of restraining at least a few skilled, physically powerful fighters, a few of whom are clearly superhuman in their strength. It restrained eight of them for about a full minute before they finally managed to break free of its grasp. Even if it couldn't rip Cloud apart (which I still think that it probably could), there's no denying that it would at least restrain him long enough for Sephiroth to run him through with his Masamune. Whatever margin for error we allow for when it comes to Sephiroth's telekinesis wouldn't apply here, because the difference between the two situations is far from insignificant. We're talking about restraining eight people versus one person person. I sincerely doubt that Sephiroth's telekinesis is less than 1/8th as powerful as what we actually saw in FF7. And the teleportation...you...kinda disproved your own argument there. Yes, there was no reason for Sephiroth to not use teleportation. Yet he still didn't use it against Cloud, thus proving that he was not utilizing his full range of capabilities. Yet, even without telekinesis, he did bounce Cloud around. Several times, in fact. Cloud was just barely managing to fend off a rather lazy assault on Sephiroth's part, all while being hurled around like he weighed nothing. Your DBZ analogy doesn't really help your argument, because Sephiroth DID show dominance throughout the fight. He wanted to prove that he was superior to Cloud on his own terms, and that's exactly what he did until he made a careless mistake.

...Wait a minute, even without taking into consideration Zack, Cloud STILL isn't the second most powerful entity in the FF7 universe. There's still Chaos Vincent, Omega Weiss, and the WEAPONS...

After all this inconsistency, do I personally feel there is an true clear cut answer? No. There is no true answer, but upon the surface analysis of Crisis Core, Zack does seem slightly superior; however, the answer isn't a... solid and clear answer. You can argue that the gameplay forced SquareEnix to make Zack more powerful than he should be or stronger than he seems. In ways, if you look past some of the inconsistencies, Cloud could and IMHO should be deemed superior such as Zack's massive screwage in the original FF7 by Sephiroth and Cloud being able to briefly hold himself against Sephiroth. And if you REALLY want a semi decent answer, you have to look within one game for consistency and if we go by ORIGINAL FF7, Cloud is without too much of a doubt superior. If we go by CC FF7, it might be Zack, but as I said a million times, there is just too much inconsistencies, and gameplay for THAT game (CC) may cause people to seem overpowered. Finally, in the case if you TRULY want to cross compare movies with games or games with other games, you have to try to keep everything as consistent (and balanced) as possible. What I mean is that you have to realize certain portions or sections of movies/games force a person to become stronger or weaker due to circumstances for the game. Cloud's non-magic combat vs. Sephiroth is an example. Zack's magic full combat vs. Sephiroth would be another. It's exactly because of balancing issue that the comparison between Zack and Cloud is so hard; however, as I said, IMHO, Cloud seems superior once all the balancing are done because it should come down to a few instances once the balancing is done.

But...there's no inconsistency. The gameplay isn't really what I'm referring to. I'm talking about Zack's feats in the storyline. Canonically, he beat Bahamut one-on-one. Canonically, he beat Genesis. Canonically, he fought a battalion of soldiers with air support down to the last three. Cloud held his own against Sephiroth, yes, but it was against a Sephiroth who was trying to preserve Cloud to prolong his humiliation. It's also a huge mistake to go by just one game. I take the entire FF7 Compilation into account when evaluating the characters; only in very specific instances do I take one particular entry in the Compilation as canon over another, and when that happens, I simply take the most recent portrayal of the scene. It's all balanced. They take place in the same universe, and nowhere is it hinted that any one entry in the Compilation follows a different set of "laws" than another. In the original FF7, Cloud is superior...because we never actually see Zack do anything. He gets one or two cutscenes while Cloud gets the entire game centered around himself. I'm not even sure if I understand what you're getting at here, unless you're one of those people who seems to think that the rest of the Compilation should just be ignored, which is a bit ridiculous considering Zack got hardly any screentime in the original FF7 at all. When the FF7 Compilation has someone grow stronger, that increase in strength becomes canon to their character and is taken into account in topics such as these. Obviously, Zack looks stronger when CC is taken into account, because that's the only time we were shown what he's capable of.

1. By AC, Cloud and Sephiroth are just far beyond or at least a level stronger than that of a Soldier 1st Class(the 2 would be classified as God Class if there was one), but Sephiroth is clearly superior. As for Zack, he is elite even within 1st class (due to his performance against Genesis/Angeal), but still is a lot weaker than the Sephiroth AC who is supposed to be ages or A LOT stronger than the Sephiroth he once was against Zack (refer to lifestream logic). 2. Zack is weaker than he seems in CC due to FF7, which would clearly place Cloud ahead of him. As such, I'm of belief that Cloud is superior when the balancing are done, but I'll again admit that it's hard to say that for a clear hard fact because of the inconsistency everywhere.

Sephiroth is. Cloud, however, has merely shown himself to be on the level of a particularly strong 1st Class SOLDIER. Yes, he achieved the strength of the SOLDIER he claimed to be, but he's certainly never showed himself to be above that level. Yes, he would probably be a particularly strong 1st Class, seeing as how he was able to compete with and likely defeat the likes of Rosso, who was the third strongest of the Colored Tsviets, but nowhere in the Compilation does he display anything that puts him on a whole other level as far as SOLDIER go. I'd place Cloud on par with Angeal; not quite as strong as Genesis, but very close. He is, however, not even in the same league as AC Sephiroth. And neither is Zack. I'm not saying that Cloud's poor performance against AC Sephiroth proves his inferiority, just that it can't be used as evidence of his superiority. Zack, meanwhile, has a large number of impressive feats to his name, all of which he accomplished on his own.

And oh yeah, thank god Sephiroth couldn't use magic in AC because Cloud COULDN'T either. Remember? Cloud got his Materias stolen(no one EVER brought this up when the argument is against Cloud). In matter of fact, I believe the argument about how Cloud got his ass handled against Kadaj and his gang is an inadequate one because Kadaj and his gang were using CLOUD'S own POWERED UP and most likely MASTERED MATERIAS against him. If Cloud had the extra boost from the Materias, I'm sure Cloud could easily overwhelm the whole Kadaj gang within seconds (and the geostigma most likely weakened Cloud). Or, if you want to stretch this into gameplay, you can argue that Kadaj was just too weak to not able to summon Knights of the Round or even Bahamut Zero and that if Cloud had his hands on his Materia, he would have owned anybody(Ultima Magic itself could blow Kadaj away in a few blows). There is a huge difference with and without Materias. Try imagining Zack trying to handle them. I doubt he would do any better (and most likely worst). And if you still aren't convinced of the difference Materias make, just think of how you would do in FF7 at the battle area. You would have to fight 8 straight combats by yourself. Sure, you might win, but if you have no Materias, I highly doubt you'll go all the way even if you're at a kickass level 99.

Sephiroth's Magic is an inherent skill of his. Cloud's Magic comes solely from an outside influence (Materia). I'd go so far as to say that Materia shouldn't even be used in this argument, seeing as how it's not a part of the character that can't be easily taken away. Sephiroth, however, possesses Magic inherently in AC, so it's completely fair for him to use it. Also, when Cloud was owned by Kadaj and his gang, they weren't actually using Materia...of course, Cloud was also infected with Geostigma, which is a reason I don't actually use the fight in the Lost City as evidence. Even once they did gain access to Cloud's Materia, they didn't exactly make liberal use of it. I count one instance in which Kadaj uses Materia for directly offensive purposes against Cloud, and a whopping zero instances of Yazoo or Loz using it. This is, I'm sorry to say, a horrendously weak argument. Kadaj's gang owned Cloud because it was a 3-on-1 fight, and Cloud was afflicted with a disease. They weren't using Materia. The next time, it was Cloud vs. Yazoo and Loz on motorcycles, a fight in which no Magic was cast at all, so the Materia made no difference whatsoever. Finally, we had Cloud vs. Kadaj one-on-one. In this battle, one spell was cast that made absolutely no difference whatsoever. There's also the fact that Materia is outside help. Summons are especially bad; how is calling a Summon Spirit to help you any different than calling your buddy in from the sidelines and telling him to help you fight?

Anyhow, sorry for the stucture, I haven't written a post in ages. Glad to be here.

No worries. I'm glad I finally got a long wall of text to respond to, but...could you try to break it up into smaller paragraphs? >_>; It's a bit of a strain on the eyes, no offense.

 

[ahsie]

NOTE: THERE ARE SPOILERS for the movie AC. Just ignore this post if you can't take them.


That can also be countered with Sephiroth's arrogance. You see, Sephiroth had never seen Omnislash Ver. 5 before. He was probably under the assumption that Cloud was going for a normal Omnislash, which he also thought he could handle without the use of any of his other special abilities. What you have to remember here is that Sephiroth had something to prove to Cloud. He wanted to make it perfectly clear that he could easily defeat him on his own terms (swordsmanship). He wanted to show Cloud that, even in the area of his expertise, Sephiroth was still superior. When the swords surrounded him- something that doesn't happen during a regular Omnislash- he became a bit disoriented, but still wanted to render Cloud utterly hopeless by showing him that even his new super attack was completely futile. Hell, if Sephiroth wanted to avoid the attack altogether, telekinesis wouldn't have been necessary at all. He could've just traveled slightly upwards, leaving Cloud to fly around like a moron for several seconds. Before that point, Sephiroth had shown reflexes more than sufficient for pulling that off, but he didn't take any action at all. I mean, really, do you honestly think that Sephiroth is incapable of flying a few feet upwards in four seconds? It seems pretty obvious that he only took on the Omnislash directly because he thought he could tank it.

I actually think that, canonically, all eight of the combatants took part in the final battle against Safer Sephiroth. It's just that we only see three of them because, well, gameplay and all that. I don't seriously think that Square would go to the trouble of showing all eight of the PCs falling into the abyss, only for five of them to mysteriously disappear. With that being said, it could then be assumed that Sephiroth didn't use his telekinesis again for the duration of the battle, having realized that, if it didn't work the first time, it wouldn't work a second time. Alternatively, let's say that he did restrain seven of the combatants and then attempt to blitz the remaining one. Okay. So what's he going to do if the remaining combatant attacks him while he's concentrating on the other seven? A sword through the face, a swarm of bullets through your body, or a shuriken jammed in your chest might make it a bit difficult to focus on keeping the others restrained, don't you agree?

I could argue that we simply didn't "see" the full duration of the fight in FF7 (because it probably would've been rather boring if we were forced to watch the door to the Jenova chamber for several minutes before Zack was finally thrown out), but I'm just going to say that's a retcon. Now, that's not to say that I think Zack was fighting equally with Sephiroth, but I can honestly say that I think he lasted more than 5-10 seconds. Yes, he got his ass pwned, but it took a little while for that to happen. Really, it's a two stage fight, and we see cutscenes before and after each of them. I somehow doubt that Sephiroth shattered the glass floor immediately after landing there, especially considering that he and Zack were standing in different positions after the fight and were, I believe, closer to one another. Maybe that's just me looking too deeply into things; I just think it's extremely unlikely that the fight lasted a mere 10 seconds, given that it was, in fact, a two-stage fight. If Square really wanted to spice things up simply for gameplay purposes, they probably would've just made it one really long battle. I believe that they meant to imply that some kind of fight took place there. As for your argument against Octaslash and such? I don't really see what's so hard to believe about it. Even so, there's nothing to suggest that he didn't have access to it. Gameplay=/=Storyline only really works when gameplay contradicts what we see in the story itself, such as Cloud taking only 30 damage from a machine gun or Sephiroth destroying the solar system with Meteor. In this case, there's nothing to suggest that Sephiroth can't use Octaslash; in fact, I believe it's even mentioned in the Ultimania, but I'm not positive on that. However, I will say that it's true that Pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth couldn't use Magic, at least without Materia. Post Nibelheim, though? That's a different story entirely.

Yes, it's true that Sephiroth never used magic against Genesis, but I do agree that Sephiroth was unable to use Magic without Materia in CC. That was a skill that seemed to be unique to Genesis, as Magic was his specialty while Sephiroth's was melee combat. As for your "Post-Nibelheim Sephiroth is stronger" argument, I admit it sounds pretty sensible on the surface, but not when you really take into consideration what happens during the SOLDIER treatment. First of all, Mako is refined Lifestream, in some ways similar to Materia. In its purest form, Lifestream doesn't seem to offer any physical benefits to humans. In fact, prolonged exposure to it can cause extreme brain damage. A dip in the Lifestream itself presumably wouldn't enhance Sephiroth's physical abilities, considering it has to be refined into Mako before it can actually be used as enhancements for humans or as a fuel source. Additionally, the SOLDIER treatment doesn't merely involve the introduction of Mako to a person's body. Jenova cells are also involved, along with, apparently, an operation of some sort. Just the Lifestream alone wouldn't have much of an effect as far as physical enhancements go. There's also the simple fact that the feats Sephiroth pulled off in Advent Children were no more impressive than the ones he pulled off in Crisis Core. Even if he did receive some sort of additional boost in physical strength, he still didn't use it against Cloud. Before Crisis Core, I would've agreed that Sephiroth was physically stronger after Nibelheim, but after seeing him fight in that game, I can't say that I see any improvement.

I'm going to have to call "lol gameplay" on this, I'm afraid. Yes, you can summon Bahamut Zero and still not destroy Elena, Rude, and Reno, but on that note, Cloud can also get pumped full of several hundred bullets and not even slow down. Cloud can also hit a random ShinRa Grunt with his sword and not kill him in one hit, Barret can pump a normal wolf full of led and it won't die, Sephiroth can hit Cait Sith with a supernova and not kill it, etc. Summons in Gameplay obviously don't hit as hard as they would in the storyline. Oh, and the Bahamut summoned against AVALANCHE was Bahamut SIN; it wasn't actually seen in the original Final Fantasy 7. Anyway, yes, I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. It's fairly obvious that gameplay=/=storyline, especially given that summons are shown to destroy large parts of the landscape that somehow manage to regenerate after they disappear. The fact of the matter is that Zack has shown himself capable of killing Summons numerous times in one-on-one battles, whereas Cloud has never shown that level of power. There's no inconsistency here, it's a simple matter of the storyline dictating that Zack has achieved something that Cloud hasn't.
Pretty much every RPG in history has had a lead-up to the final boss. Nobody tries to argue that Zidane could've beaten Super Trance Kuja because the team had to go through Deathguise first, or that Cecil>Zemus because his team had to go against Zeromus beforehand. Besides, Sephiroth was still getting beaten on by eight people who, canonically, had access to Materia (several of which can heal the target). Whether or not they're a bit tired, 8-on-1 is just not fair. Even so, Sephiroth was also holding back Holy. Now, I admit, we don't know what sort of effect this actually had on him, but I'm sure he wasn't just sitting there chilling out all that time. As for Cloud's battle against Sephiroth in the Spirit Realm? They showed it because it was meant to represent Cloud's will overpowering Sephiroth's and tearing his soul to shreds (keep in mind that Sephiroth had already gone through having his body ripped apart). Sephiroth was trying, once again, to take control of Cloud's body, sort of as a last desperate attempt at saving himself. The battle was showing Cloud fighting off Sephiroth's influence and remaining in-control. Yes, it happened, just not as a physical duel.

And yes, it remained 8-on-1 the whole battle...well, until the symbolic fight.

Of course, even if the duel actually, physically happened, Sephiroth had still just finished getting the snot kicked out of him by eight/six people. There's never been any inconsistency; Sephiroth has always been superior to Cloud. The duel was spiritual and took place immediately after Sephiroth had gotten his body literally annihilated. In addition to that, Sephiroth's "will" was what held back Holy. I imagine his will was part of his soul, rather than his body, so the fact that he was fighting in spirit form may very well have put him at something of a disadvantage. But honestly, I don't know if there there was even a literal clashing of swords. The duel was symbolic, and doesn't even speak for the physical fighting capabilities of either combatant.

It's not just that he held back his magic, but, rather, that he held back everything except his skill with the Masamune, even in situations where it would've been quite useful to him. Why not just use telekinesis to hold Cloud in place at the very beginning? Why not turn intangible to avoid some of Cloud's attacks? What happened to Supernova, Octaslash, and Iakiri? Anyway, the "Cloud has no Materia" argument isn't very solid, either, because, at this point in the storyline, Magic was inherent skill of Sephiroth's. He could have used it without Materia, at least to some extent, whereas Cloud needed it to use even the simplest of spells. Back in the days of Crisis Core, he did, because he was just a normal SOLDIER. His Mako/J-Cell enhancements only enhanced him physically (with few exceptions, such as Iakiri and his teleportation, which could be compared to stuff like Cloud's Blade Beam). After his dip in the Lifestream, he gained the "knowledge of the Ancients", which included the ability to perform Magic naturally. Anyway, as far as his skill with the Masamune, there's the fact that Sephiroth was taunting Cloud throughout the fight and never once hinted that he was taking it remotely seriously. The smirk never once left his face, he threw Cloud around like a rag doll, and mocked him openly from beginning to end.

Yes, it's true that that example alone doesn't prove that Sephiroth was toying with Cloud throughout the fight. However, there's also the fact that Sephiroth openly mocked Cloud from beginning to end, whereas Cloud grunted in effort or frustration pretty much every time their swords clashed. Cloud was obviously exerting effort where Sephiroth was totally relaxed. Sephiroth didn't just begin showing dominance when Cloud was falling over out of fatigue, that's just where it culminated in Sephy outright refusing to take an opportunity to kill him. In addition to that, the fact that Cloud was hardly able to keep himself on his feet while Sephiroth was still flipping around without even breathing heavily shows that Cloud expended much more stamina than Sephiroth did. The fact that Sephiroth didn't slaughter Cloud when he had the chance is just the most obvious example, which is why I use it so much. Sephiroth is always a cool-headed fighter, but you can tell when he gets serious in a fight. Genesis's/Angeal's fight against Sephiroth was just a friendly sparring match between buddies. Any "mocking" that goes on there was nothing more than friendly banter. He was genuinely mocking and belittling Cloud despite being in a serious duel where the world itself is on the line. And again, how do you explain Cloud's frustrated grunts? His extreme fatigue compared to Sephiroth not having slowed down at all?
His telekinesis is not inconsistent. It's always shown to be capable of restraining at least a few skilled, physically powerful fighters, a few of whom are clearly superhuman in their strength. It restrained eight of them for about a full minute before they finally managed to break free of its grasp. Even if it couldn't rip Cloud apart (which I still think that it probably could), there's no denying that it would at least restrain him long enough for Sephiroth to run him through with his Masamune. Whatever margin for error we allow for when it comes to Sephiroth's telekinesis wouldn't apply here, because the difference between the two situations is far from insignificant. We're talking about restraining eight people versus one person person. I sincerely doubt that Sephiroth's telekinesis is less than 1/8th as powerful as what we actually saw in FF7. And the teleportation...you...kinda disproved your own argument there. Yes, there was no reason for Sephiroth to not use teleportation. Yet he still didn't use it against Cloud, thus proving that he was not utilizing his full range of capabilities. Yet, even without telekinesis, he did bounce Cloud around. Several times, in fact. Cloud was just barely managing to fend off a rather lazy assault on Sephiroth's part, all while being hurled around like he weighed nothing. Your DBZ analogy doesn't really help your argument, because Sephiroth DID show dominance throughout the fight. He wanted to prove that he was superior to Cloud on his own terms, and that's exactly what he did until he made a careless mistake.

...Wait a minute, even without taking into consideration Zack, Cloud STILL isn't the second most powerful entity in the FF7 universe. There's still Chaos Vincent, Omega Weiss, and the WEAPONS...

But...there's no inconsistency. The gameplay isn't really what I'm referring to. I'm talking about Zack's feats in the storyline. Canonically, he beat Bahamut one-on-one. Canonically, he beat Genesis. Canonically, he fought a battalion of soldiers with air support down to the last three. Cloud held his own against Sephiroth, yes, but it was against a Sephiroth who was trying to preserve Cloud to prolong his humiliation. It's also a huge mistake to go by just one game. I take the entire FF7 Compilation into account when evaluating the characters; only in very specific instances do I take one particular entry in the Compilation as canon over another, and when that happens, I simply take the most recent portrayal of the scene. It's all balanced. They take place in the same universe, and nowhere is it hinted that any one entry in the Compilation follows a different set of "laws" than another. In the original FF7, Cloud is superior...because we never actually see Zack do anything. He gets one or two cutscenes while Cloud gets the entire game centered around himself. I'm not even sure if I understand what you're getting at here, unless you're one of those people who seems to think that the rest of the Compilation should just be ignored, which is a bit ridiculous considering Zack got hardly any screentime in the original FF7 at all. When the FF7 Compilation has someone grow stronger, that increase in strength becomes canon to their character and is taken into account in topics such as these. Obviously, Zack looks stronger when CC is taken into account, because that's the only time we were shown what he's capable of.

Sephiroth is. Cloud, however, has merely shown himself to be on the level of a particularly strong 1st Class SOLDIER. Yes, he achieved the strength of the SOLDIER he claimed to be, but he's certainly never showed himself to be above that level. Yes, he would probably be a particularly strong 1st Class, seeing as how he was able to compete with and likely defeat the likes of Rosso, who was the third strongest of the Colored Tsviets, but nowhere in the Compilation does he display anything that puts him on a whole other level as far as SOLDIER go. I'd place Cloud on par with Angeal; not quite as strong as Genesis, but very close. He is, however, not even in the same league as AC Sephiroth. And neither is Zack. I'm not saying that Cloud's poor performance against AC Sephiroth proves his inferiority, just that it can't be used as evidence of his superiority. Zack, meanwhile, has a large number of impressive feats to his name, all of which he accomplished on his own.

Sephiroth's Magic is an inherent skill of his. Cloud's Magic comes solely from an outside influence (Materia). I'd go so far as to say that Materia shouldn't even be used in this argument, seeing as how it's not a part of the character that can't be easily taken away. Sephiroth, however, possesses Magic inherently in AC, so it's completely fair for him to use it. Also, when Cloud was owned by Kadaj and his gang, they weren't actually using Materia...of course, Cloud was also infected with Geostigma, which is a reason I don't actually use the fight in the Lost City as evidence. Even once they did gain access to Cloud's Materia, they didn't exactly make liberal use of it. I count one instance in which Kadaj uses Materia for directly offensive purposes against Cloud, and a whopping zero instances of Yazoo or Loz using it. This is, I'm sorry to say, a horrendously weak argument. Kadaj's gang owned Cloud because it was a 3-on-1 fight, and Cloud was afflicted with a disease. They weren't using Materia. The next time, it was Cloud vs. Yazoo and Loz on motorcycles, a fight in which no Magic was cast at all, so the Materia made no difference whatsoever. Finally, we had Cloud vs. Kadaj one-on-one. In this battle, one spell was cast that made absolutely no difference whatsoever. There's also the fact that Materia is outside help. Summons are especially bad; how is calling a Summon Spirit to help you any different than calling your buddy in from the sidelines and telling him to help you fight?
No worries. I'm glad I finally got a long wall of text to respond to, but...could you try to break it up into smaller paragraphs? >_>; It's a bit of a strain on the eyes, no offense.

I'll answer directly each quote with each individual paragraph. I never quite understood how to use quotes even after 4 years on different forums X_X

Anyhow, I'll start at the meat which is the Sephiroth paragraph.
First, I understand what you're aiming at, but I can't say for sure that Sephiroth had that immediate attention of showing that I'm better in everyway because he didn't show it (at least to me). AS I said earlier, someone who does that wouldn't fight head to head and foot to foot with Cloud and at least make it seem on the surface that Cloud was putting up a fight. That is NOT a way of showing your superiorty even in sword-combat. I mentioned it before and I'll mention it again since you know DBZ. When Freeza at 50% power fought Pre Super Saiyan Goku, Freeza wasn't just beating Goku, he was OWNING Goku and bouncing him all around like his own toy. That's the way to destroy someone's mental confiedence and exert your dominance or as we're all saying-"toying" and "playing" in the combat sense. Since Sephiroth not only didn't show, but he also didn't prove it, I can't buy that. Unless there is a direct quote somewhere(and don't give me that mistranslation because not only is it mistranslated, it's unsupported based on what I see), I can't buy that from the point of view that I'm looking at.
And continueing on about Omnislash V5, I know what you are going to say. That's why I specifically counted the time. Not only does Sephiroth have the reflex, but he's supposed to have teleportation OR if it's strong enough telekinesis to get himself out of the dump; however, none of those happened which is why I'm doubting Sephiroth's ability a bit (as in overrated by the gameplay in FF7). So you have 1. reflex 2. Teleportation and 3. Telekinesis. Wow, 3 options and you still couldn't get out of a Omnislash V5 that took a whole 12 SECONDS to execute? Pretty said huh? So let's take a look at what Sephiroth COULD have done if he REALLY did have the 3 abilities above. 1. Reflex. I of belief that after the 1st slash, Sephiroth was a bit stunned (as in phyiscally, not mentally), therefore he wasn't able to get out of the mess he was in. 2./3. Teleportation and telekinesis should almost be instinct and should work by the speed of brain and let's just say Sephiroth decided he can take Omnislash V5, don't you think Sephiroth should KNOW that he's in trouble by the 3rd or 4th slash? I mean even if the 5th slash was too fast, Sephiroth had MORE than enough time to use of those 2 skills and get himself out of the mess he was in because the 6th and final slash took the longest. I'm pretty sure Sephiroth isn't stupid enough to not use his trump cards and his strongest mad skills when he's about to get his ass kicked and dissapear for maybe forever. As a result, I'm personally of belief that Sephiroth most likely doesn't have that ability due to the INCONSISTENCY between the game/movie, which I'll reexplain since you didn't seem to completely grasp the premise of the argument.

Ok, even if you decide Safer Sephiroth didn't decide to use it because it didn't work, that still doesn't explain my earlier theory. Based on what you're saying, telekinesis on 8 is supposed to stretch the limits of their body (due to Red XIII's comment). Ok, fine. Then all Sephiroth had to do is to concentrate on 4 and the pull, which was already pushing the 8 at their limits, should automatically split the 4 because by your own logic, the pull's energy should DOUBLE. That wouldn't take more 1 seconds if the energy, that was already pushing limits, got doubled. Then all Sephiroth had to do is do it again and GAMEOVER. And regarding this to Cloud in AC, he, as I said again, had MORE than enough time to activate it after the 5th strike which Sephiroth should have known he was in trouble.
As for Octoslash, I'll again say it. If he has the ability, why not use it? Ok, if we go by your interp that Sephiroth is not trying (which my eyes and ears don't agree with for reasons I mentioned before), Octoslash would still fit under the realm of "sword play". If Sephiroth really wanted to show who's boss, he should just acitivate Octoslash and basically prove to Cloud, "punk, you don't have anywhere near the skills to ball with me." That would prove to be millions of time more effective in damaging Cloud's mental confiedence AND also make Cloud "suffer", WHICH btw is Sephiroth's purpose RIGHT??? It would accomplish everything at once. It would make Sephiroth bounce Cloud around like a ball(like Freeza did to Goku), it would destroy Cloud's confiedence, and it should make Cloud suffer both mentally and physically.

About Zack, this is ONE of the reasons that I said you might not really understand my inconsistency argument. In the original FF7, Zack got his ass kicked out within 10 seconds. In the remake, we DON'T really know how long Zack took. But due to the NEED of this scene to reappear and the gameplay to happen, Zack COULDN'T get his ass kicked back out 10 seconds later. This is ONE INCONSISTENCY between reality and gameplay and why did it it happen? Well, I just said it. Zack as the main character of the game that WE are playing can't just get kicked back out. People all around the world would be "WTF is this"? Neither can Sephiroth decide to hold everything back but Masumume because that's just not how gameplay works. AGAIN, another inconsistency between reality and gameplay. NO ONE in the gameplay realm ever holds something back, especially magic. BUT, in the so called "reality realm"(with maybe the exception of Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth), Sephiroth never once used magic in combat and neither did any of us see it and therefore, I'm not betting on him using it against Zack. You agreed yourself that Sephiroth Pre-Nibelium was "trying" against Genesis, yet he didn't show any of his mad magic skills(which he could defitnitely use and if you want to go by gameplay a bit which is what you're doing for Zack's case, Sephiroth did arm himself with lots of Materia in the flashback in the original FF7, making me believe that Sephiroth had more than the ability to use magic). As such, I don't think it's fair to count this against Cloud in AC when he never used it before either. As for fairness of Cloud not having magic, I'll get to that soon.

I don't think the issue here is whether or not Sephiroth can use magic with or without Materia. It's the issue of whether Sephiroth EVER decides to use it because he's never shown it. He has the ABILITY, but he never CHOOSES to use it. We didn't see Sephiroth's arm shining with Materias and we didn't see it in Genesis either, but we're all pretty sure that Genesis had at least a Fire Materia. This means Sephiroth could really well have Materias, but he just decides not to use it and prefers sword combat. And remember, this is all happening while Sephiroth is supposedly "trying". So "trying" for Sephiroth=still majority (95%+) sword use, but could use magic.
As for lifestream, I understand what you're arguing, but the point still remains that if it's suppose to offer Sephiroth "spiritual benefits", which you mentioned sometime a few months ago, I can assume that it also offers physical benefits because as you just said, Mako energy and lifestream are of the same origin. If you decide to go against this argument, you'll have to prove why it's spiritual only when the lifestream and mako energy are of the same origin. And yes, I did take into account of the SOLDIER operation, but Sephiroth never did get reopperated, so the spritual boost effect you spoke of earlier is solely from the lifestream.
Also, I'm pretty sure that between the movie and CC, the creators thought, "Ok, Sephiroth was this kick ass in AC and therefore we need to tone down his ability in the CC scene." Seriously, you really think the creators are THAT nitpicking?

Well, here is the 2nd reason that I think you don't understand the inconsistency argument and you said it yourself. Game: You summon Bahamut Zero 3 times and Elena, Reno, and Rude won't die. Movie: Bahamut SIN (which looks like Neo Bahamut, but anyway) gets summoned and RENO AND RUDE, which COUGH COUGH are the same 2 person except without Elena, (meaning less power) won't even dare fight Bahamut Sin head on. This is inconsistency. And since this gameplay inconsistency exists, I don't believe we can count this against Cloud. Afterall, if you're claiming that Zack can beat Bahamut Fury (which is essentially Bahamut Zero) all by himself (which he did due to the inconsistency), then that would mean Cloud and all his group is together weaker than Zack because Cloud and his group had an insane time against an INFERIOR Bahamut. Seriously, this can't be compared. If you really want to stretch this, you mind as well say Zack>Cloud and his gang>Sephiroth. And guess what? Zack all by himself can beat Sephiroth! Seriously, don't use this argument. It's lame and the inconsistency is about as dead obvious as there is, and it proves the premise of what I'm getting at. The "required" cicumstances (Zack vs Sephiroth in CC, Cloud vs. Sephiroth in AC, Summon battles in CC, Summon battle in AC, etc) overrate or underrate some characters abilities. As such, the inconsistencies appear. For movie, they couldn't just show Bahamut get thrashed because it would be BORING. Likewise, for gameplay, Bahamut has to be leveled just right so that Zack can beat it or else if we follow the movie's case, Zack would get his ass screwed 10 times.
So, this-"There's no inconsistency here, it's a simple matter of the storyline dictating that Zack has achieved something that Cloud hasn't." is WRONG.

Yes, 8 on 1 is not fair(which I never argued against), but you still ignored the main issue on fatigue (which is what I RESPONDED to) when you argued this earlier. YOUR argument earlier was that fatigue was the main issue for Sephiroth and that argument itself is left unresponded from you.

And yes, I already acknowledged that the spiritual fight is inconclusive in any way. But, if FF7 was left as it was without any of the compliation, Cloud probably would be deemed superior. It's only after the inconsistency started by the compliation and the need to rebuild Sephiroth's aura of invinciblity that we can say for sure that the spiritual fight is inconclusive.

"It's not just that he held back his magic, but, rather, that he held back everything except his skill with the Masamune, even in situations where it would've been quite useful to him. Why not just use telekinesis to hold Cloud in place at the very beginning? Why not turn intangible to avoid some of Cloud's attacks? What happened to Supernova, Octaslash, and Iakiri?"
Yes, good question. Why did he held all these back when he was about to get fu**ed back into nowhere EVEN at the last moment? And that was my point. Does he really have those in the "reality" realm OR were they just created in the gameplay realm? Those are all inconsistencies that I'm all pointing to and unforutnetly, all these inconsistency between movies and games are discrediting Cloud's ability.
And since you didn't seem to understand my argument, you would naturally would say, "Anyway, the "Cloud has no Materia" argument isn't very solid". Well, that is suppose to be a point that IN THE MOVIE, since Cloud has no Materia, Sephiroth isn't suppose to have Materias or Magic either. Or else, the movie would all be completely skewed. As I said, certain CIRCUMSTANCES FORCE certain issues. I've said this many times and gave many examples. 1. Summon battles in the movie and gameplay are different for reasons I gave. A Summon battle in the movie can't show absolute ownage of Bahamut Sin or else it wouldn't be a movie. Likewise, Zack HAS to have the tools to beat Bahamut Fury or it wouldn't be a game. 2. Zack vs. Sephiroth WITH magic is another example and one that I was talking about earlier. It's impossible in the gameplay realm for Sephiroth to withhold all his magic. That's just not possible in gameplay. As such, for those 2 cases and the Cloud vs. Sephiroth NO-MAGIC battle due to forced circumstances in the movie, none of these inconsitencies between movie and gameplay should be counted against Cloud. As I said earlier and I'll say it again. Cloud in this type of argument is given no ground.
As for the seriousness of Sephiroth, you kind of just restated what you said earlier and didn't respond to what I said. I first said that Sephiroth's style is to battle arrogantly. He was arrogant to Genesis and Angeal and he was arrogant to Cloud. And furthermore, I've warranted why I believe Sephiroth was trying as his combat style wasn't showing someone who's playing. Yes, Sephiroth is superior in speed (and outmatching Cloud as a whole) and proved it, but Cloud held his own and that's how the movie played out. As I said again and again, the inital 5 minutes is not how "playing" in the combat sense works. If you want to know how playing in the combat sense looks like, just look at DBZ. In addition to the Freeza example, just pratically look at about every major battle. Almost every major battle, Goku would get his ass clearly owned and getting knocked all over before finding a way to win and hold his own (Battles against Vegita, his brother (forgot his name), Freeza, Boo, and for DBGT, Goku got played with Baby-Vegita and Fused Shenron). Cloud vs. Sephiroth in AC didn't fit into that description. They fitted more like Cell vs. super powered SS1 Goku where Cell was clearly superior, but Goku held his own. Basically, Cloud isn't Sephiroth's ball to play all around with. As for "he threw Cloud around like a rag doll", that only happened when Cloud was fatigued AND THERE YOU GO, Sephiroth STARTED at that point to play and bounce Cloud in circles. THAT's how playing in the combat sense is like. If Sephiroth was toying the whole time, he would have been able to do what he did to Cloud when he was fatigued EARLIER.

" However, there's also the fact that Sephiroth openly mocked Cloud from beginning to end" That doesn't prove anything if Sephiroth couldn't back it up in his actions. And who knows, maybe Sephiroth was just trying to get into Cloud's head (which is reasonable), but we can't say that mock=not trying. It would be assumption especially when the movie doesn't back it up from a combat standpoint. This all more or less IMO is simply Sephiroth's style of arrogance, which he even showed against Angeal and Genesis. And while it isn't as apparent against Zack, Sephiroth still smiled and fought arrogantly(as you can imagine, he probably wasn't in the mood to mock Zack when he's in the middle of something). That's just his style.
"Cloud was obviously exerting effort where Sephiroth was totally relaxed. Sephiroth didn't just begin showing dominance when Cloud was falling over out of fatigue, that's just where it culminated in Sephy outright refusing to take an opportunity to kill him."
Well, that was kind of my point except you obviously interepted differently. Sephiroth was relaxed, but still concentrating on the fight. Here's the basic idea- Sephiroth combat with effort=Cloud desperately trying to keep up with LOTS of energy being exerted. Basically, Cloud can keep up, but needs to push his body to limits that will weaken him if he keeps it up. And unless we're watching different movies, I don't consider the inital 5 minutes as "dominating" and Sephiroth didn't have a clear strike at any moment. As for outright "refusing to kill him", yeah, that is kind of the point of "playing" in the combat sense. You said it yourself. That is playing. And as you said yourself, that ONLY HAPPENED when Cloud was fatigued. Playing is NOT making it so that your opponent can seem to hold their ground.
"The fact that Sephiroth didn't slaughter Cloud when he had the chance is just the most obvious example, which is why I use it so much."
Yes, and I'm starting to wonder why you have such different views when we agree on about half of the things we're talking about. I AGREE AGAIN that Sephiroth had the chance to kill him ANDDDD that ONLY happened after Cloud was FATIGUED. It never once happened before and neither was there ANY sort of moment that Sephiroth could have taken advantage and took a fatal blow in the heart or lung against Cloud. Oh and btw, do you still remember the FMV scenes in CC? Sephiroth at least on the surface on those didn't seem like he was trying. Just as he was against Cloud, he was relaxed, but still trying. And if I want to be REALLY nitpicking (which would make me seem like a b**ch), I could say that Sephiroth didn't try as hard as he did against Zack because based on those short scenes, Sepiroth didn't push it as hard as he did against Cloud(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCjF_CbXn4M&feature=related 8:00-8:21) as Sephiroth just "floated" in front of Zack rather than continually blow him away. Compared to the AC scenes, if you call AC scene "relaxed", then he's even more relaxed against Zack. For example, at 8:12, when Zack supposedly just went through the 2nd phase and got pushed up into the air, he wasn't pursued. On the contrary in AC, when Cloud got pushed back, Sephiroth zoomed in from the side and pushed Cloud into the building and continued the assault (which again aren't lazy. CC scenes look more lazy when I looked at them more closely).
" And again, how do you explain Cloud's frustrated grunts? His extreme fatigue compared to Sephiroth not having slowed down at all?"
Dude, I don't think you get it. Cloud is OBVIOUSLY outmatched and needs to exert far more energy to keep up, BUT that DOESN'T mean Cloud was getting played around. Yes, Cloud is frustrated. Yes, Cloud is fatigued. And yes, Cloud knows that he's eventually going to get screwed if this keeps going on. BUT Cloud still held his own for those moments. I still haven't seen or heard a legit reason that would suggest Cloud was getting absolutely punched around. Oh, if you want to link this to Zack, we can. Zack likewise was forced into grunting (and in frustration if I might add) at 8:20 and supposedly after getting kicked out, Zack was so tired (FAR MORE FATIGUED than Cloud was) that he couldn't even move and eventually even fainted. If you want to get something out of that, we might be able to add that Zack was pushing it even more than Cloud was and just didn't have anything left (Cloud still had enough for Omnislash), yet he still lost in a arguably worse fashion. As for the actual "fight", we don't see a lot of it because it's suppose to be mostly gameplay, but from the brief exchanges that were shown of what REALLY happened in the reality realm, Zack seemed to have a harder time matching up to Sephiroth's assault (which are "lazier" than the assault he had in AC). One (lame, but true) example is either the start of the 1st or 2nd round (forgot) when Sephiroth actually managed to cut off a small chunk of Zack's hair. Zack in this case showed no resistance and was already implied getting completely outmatched. Furthermore IMO, Zack was more "vulnerable" as I would like to say it in this extremely brief FMV compared to what Cloud was experiencing (Cloud never had an opening where Sephiroth could strike cleanly until the fatigue where Cloud just got owned). Contrary to Zack, Cloud was able to match strike to strike, but obviously only so by overexerting himself, but Zack probably pushed it even more when we compare their states coming out of the battle).
As for mocking, I've already mentioned that through several links. 1. It's a general style that Sephiroth has. And I believe he only further showed it because of his hatred toward Cloud. Even against Zack, Angeal, and Genesis, he always had that style. 2. Sephiroth's combat action never implied that he wasn't trying. It's just that Sephiroth trying=Cloud exerting his overdrive to keep up. 3. It could be a head thing as in trying to mentally weaken an opponent (which for the 2nd time is perfectly reasonable).

"His telekinesis is not inconsistent."
It is if you believe that all 8 fighets were fighting Sephiroth in the final battle in FF7. There is "suppose" to be a moment when it's 3 on 1 where if it's consistent, the 3 are immediately dead. And seriously, I don't know and YOU don't know if it's really 3 on 1 or 8 on 1 and we can't speculate. Maybe Sephiroth decided to teleport these 3 to somewhere else (and btw, the battle scene doesn't look anywhere like the scene the group was fighting against Bizarro Sephiroth). We can't say for sure.
"Even if it couldn't rip Cloud apart (which I still think that it probably could), there's no denying that it would at least restrain him long enough for Sephiroth to run him through with his Masamune."
Yes, based on your logic assuming the inconsistency I just mentioned is untrue, your logic is true. But again, why didn't Sephiroth activate it when he needed most? If we go by your logic where Sephiroth is "supposed" to be playing the WHOLE TIME, don't you think there is one particular moment when it's NOT play time anymore? And as I said earlier, Omnislash takes more than enough time for Sephiroth to counterattack with telekinesis OR teleportation.
And speaking of teleportation, that was kinda the point. For people playing, there is PLAY TIME and SERIOUS TIME. I would classify the Omnislash V5 time as SERIOUS TIME to bust out anything you were holding back INCLUDING TELEPORTATION and TELEKINESIS. Going back to DBZ. Freeza at 50% doesn't play around (i.e. SERIOUS TIME) when he realized Super Saiyan Goku is almost twice as powerful as he is and is about to kick his ass into hell (literally, lol). And since Sephiroth was in a SERIOUS TIME situation, there was no reason to hold anything back. If you're still holding back by the 5th slash and knowing that you're about to be screwed by the 6th slash (again, time is not an issue. Brain wave/survival instinct WAY FASTER than a strike)... you're either just stupid or just horrible in combat and I don't think Sephiroth is classified as either one.
And uh... dude. I wouldn't call those "lazy assaults". That or we're watching different movies. And yeah, it felt like nothing because this is "tryng" mode for Sephiroth without having to push the adrenaline buttom like Cloud is. As I said already, Sephiroth "outmatches" Cloud and is obviously superior in speed to Cloud, but Cloud held his own. That is kind of the meaning of "outmatch" you know, but it's not absolute pwnage.
"Your DBZ analogy doesn't really help your argument, because Sephiroth DID show dominance throughout the fight. He wanted to prove that he was superior to Cloud on his own terms, and that's exactly what he did until he made a careless mistake."
Yes my DBZ helps me because I don't equate Cloud vs. Sephiroth to Goku being pushed around by Freeza. It's OBVIOUSLY different. That or both of us need to get our eyes checked and compare the 2 fights and see if it's the same type of ownage. Well, hoping that my eyes are correct, my memory told me this:
Freeza just powered up to 50%.
Goku, feeling the immense chi, comments and stares a little shocked, "Man, he really isn't joking."
Then, BAMM. Freeza just pops up in front of Goku and slams him in the nose. The rest of the way, Goku eventually powers up to 10X Kaiyquan (I forgot what that Red Fire thing is called) but still get punched, gets slapped by the tail, and then gets kicked out of the smoke on the floor where the red Kaiquan flames extinguishes. That's my memory and impression of the "dominanting" and "pwnage" Freeza was doing against Goku.
On the other hand...
AC is more like this.
Sephiroth starts the dark cloud and the 2 jump at each other and start the match.
Cloud and Sephiroth fights in the air and eventually Sephiroth overwhelms Cloud physically and pushes Cloud downward. Cloud starts to wonder where Sephiroth went and Sephiroth zips from the side and knocks Cloud into the building (superior speed, which I acknowledged). Cloud gets up angrily and Sephiroth also jumps in and zips right back into a minute or two of non stop combat (Cloud is holding his own and unless I'm blind, I don't see a opening for Sephiroth to strike. Oh yeah, this is WAY different than Freeza vs. Goku.) Afterward, Sephiroth mocks Cloud (a head thing) about where he got the strength. Cloud pushes Sephiroth out (inconclusive in terms of strength) and Sephiroth goes up and soon sends the top part of a building on Cloud. Cloud splits his sword and jumps up into the falling debris. Sephiroth splits a debris and BAM, they're at it again. Jumping around, sword waves are everywhere! Man, they're really going at it (I don't know if my eyes are blind, but this is nowhere like Goku vs. Freeza). Finally, Cloud had enough and jumps way high and collapses. While Cloud jumped up, Sephiroth stares at Cloud with a hatred look (and maybe serious look too, but I can't tell the difference). Soon Sephiroth catches up and uh oh...., Sephiroht punches, pushes, kicks, and then finally stabs Cloud. OH NO, Cloud is fatigued and Sephiroth just absolutely pwned Cloud (yes, THAT moment does look like Goku vs. Freeza). And we know the rest. And just a quick reminder, look over the time(time starts when the swords officially surrounds Sephiroth and if you look REALLY closely, he knows something is wrong as he no longer had that arrogant face) Omnislash took to execute. Sephiroth had more than enough time even BETWEEN the Omnislash (in particular between the 5th and 6th slash) to get his ass out of trouble.
Anyhow, that ends my coverage of the 2 fights and I don't you about you, but I had a totally different impression between those 2 fights.
As for Cloud being 2nd strongest. Just screw that. I wasn't thinking straight. If you include WEAPONS, then yeah, it's obviously different.

Dude, you are either blind or don't understand what I'm talking about. It's not whether inconsistency exists or not because there is absolutely NO QUESTION that inconsistency exists. You can tell me to bet my life and I'm willing to bet that it exists. It's just not how things work between movies and games. Certain circumstances in games and movies force certain things to work in certain ways. I've told you mutiple examples and SUMMONS is the example easiest to comprehend (but the others more important and more relative to the topic). And one of the examples, " Canonically, he beat Bahamut one-on-one." fits perfectly under that realm. I believe I don't need to tell you the obvious flaw again. And because ALL these inconsistencies exists between movies, games and games, the answer is extremely hard to get; however, as I said, IMHO, once all the balancing is done, Cloud seems superior (to me). This is also why I said, a semi-decent answer is technically one that comes from one game because the inconsistency is at an extreme minimal (virtually none).

As for this paragraph about Cloud's level, I believe it's more speculation (which I have a feeling that you agree with). But we apparently have different views of Clouds due to what we discussed right above me. For example, I didn't find Sephiroth's battle with Cloud in anyway at all "playing" for reasons that should be obvious and reasons that I went as far as giving a coverage to with DBZ. From that perspective, Cloud, who could hold his ground for 5 minutes, is superior to a Zack, who seems to hold on for a lesser time, against an inferior Sephiroth. And speaking of accomplishments, one of them-Summons is just ridiculous and that only leaves defeating 1st Class SOLDIERs as anything extremely memorable. I can't think of anything else too particular. And don't say Minerva because it's optional and technically shouldn't follow the main line. Likewise, I can't say Ruby/Emerald either. If I want, I could say that Cloud essentially defeated Ruby (I think or is it Emerald? I forgot.) by himself since it's FAR SMARTER to first kill off your 2 allies and just fight it yourself. And WOOT, Cloud>Ruby WEAPON. Likewise, we have Zack>Minerva. Or I can say Cloud got Knights of the Round (paired with HP Restore) with Mime and that's far superior to anything Zack can do. But honestly, those shouldn't be taken into account because it's optional (i.e. not part of the main story) and it wouldn't help Zack's case either. As for Cloud, I don't know about you, but if you want to go by gameplay(which you clearly did for some circumstances), I could say Cloud is clearly superior to a 1st Class SOLDIER(directly against what you said). Want to know why? Because in FF7, you get to face 1st Class SOLDIERs at the end of Disc 2 and my Cloud absolutely pwned them(no..., I didn't do any excessive leveling). And don't say it's outnumbering because Cloud with 2 allies defeated 3 1st Class SOLDIERs. And in any case, that would only make Cloud seem even more superior to a 1st Class because techincally speaking in the "real realm", Barret and the others with maybe the exception of Vincent or Red XIII (who weren't in my party because I was trying to get Yuffie and Tifa's Level 3-2 limit breaks) are inferior to 1st Class SOLDIERs. But I'm pretty sure you'll think this is absolute BS and likewise, I think it's the same when some of the examples are from in-game. And just in case you don't think it's BS, that would mean Cloud is considerably superior to an average 1st Class SOLDIER(hey, my party wasn't left in a dying condition). In any case, that would make Cloud elite within 1st Class (like Zack) and guess what? Cloud still has a whole Northern Crater's worth of training to do and he's surely going to surpass Zack by that time (and maybe jump to an unknown Saint Class by AC. Of course, Sephiroth is still God Class if there was one). That's how I see it if we decide to go by gameplay, BUT I didn't post it because I personally think the evaluation of a Cloud in the real realm shouldn't be like that.
And just in case you want to hear more, I'm willing to believe that Cloud was an average 1st Class by the middle of Disc 2 because he easily mandhandled 3 2nd Class SOLDIERS (underwater reactor). Same could be said that Cloud reached 2nd Class in the middle of Disc 1 when he (with his party) easily defeated 3 3rd Class SOLDIERs(visit to Shinra). And do keep in mind that Zack went through a relatively shorter journey and therefore didn't have anywhere the massive time (in relative scale) like Cloud did to jump from level to level. And again, this is my belief if we go by gameplay encounters, which I only believe in with great caution (particulary the balancing issue).

I'll get to Sephiroth in a moment, but I do need to tell you for SURE this time. WATCH THE MOVIE AGAIN. I swear with my life that they used Materias. And YES, they did use Cloud's own Materia. I'll give you a few instances. The first time is when Kadaj opened up Cloud's box of Materia and said, "Look at what Big brother is hiding." And then he puts one into him(they apparently place it into their arms). Later, RIGHT at the beggining of the 3 on 1, you see the guy with gun shooting with a Materia SHINING, which means the long haired dude is using the Materia (most likely Cloud's) to support his gun shots. And while the Materis didn't shine for the dude who cries all the time, his speed increased by A LOT (I'm guessing a Speed Plus Materia). His speed went so fast that Cloud could never escape him and do take note that the guy didn't have that speed at the beginning (the one done on the desert like place). The guy also later used Ice Materia. Later on, the last notable area where you know the guys used Materia was near the end. After Kadaj flowed into the lifestream, you see the other 2 "brothers". The long haired one shoots at Cloud and you see his arm and the other guy's arm ALIGHT with 5 Materias each (all on one arm). Obviously the long hair dude says, "We go together." I know I'm right because I just watched the movie again 2 days ago while I was doing the laundries. And again, since what I'm watching is true, you have to realize that Cloud's level is a lot higher than you initially think. Think about it. Yazuu and Loo (I think) most likely seemed at least a 2nd Class (estimation), while Kadaj might have been a slightly below average 1st (again, estimation). Imagine those 3 with a total of 15 Materias vs. a Cloud with no Materia. That is a battle that is totally skewed and a healthy Cloud as I like to call it, came out victorious. Even if you decide that Yazoo and Loo (no idea about the names) are just merely 3rd Class (which I think is a bit of an insult to their skills) and Kadaj is a 2nd, a normal average 1st Class SOLDIER (say Angeal) would not have been able to handle the 3 especially when the Materia count is 15 to 0. And keep in mind, those are some MASTERED Materias that Cloud used to use. If anything, this should be a testimony of Cloud's ability beyond a 1st Class SOLDIER (even beyond Zack's IMO Elite 1st Class).
For summons, I don't think I need to repeat what I said. If you STILL don't understand the obvious premise of my argument, I just wasted a chunk of my lifetime when I could be reading ahead for my lectures and I won't post again (since they take too long). That, or read my post CLOSELY before posting again right after reading (which I used to do and sometimes misunderstand some people). As such, this links to magic issue with Sephiroth and Cloud. Again, for the... millionth time, circumstances, for the movie to work, force it that Sephiroth not use magic if he even had it in the first place. And even if he has magic, the movie make it so that Sephiroth doesn't use magic because that's the starting ground for a fair fight for Cloud. It would make a slightly skewed battle even more skewed. In this case, the movie might have lowered Sephiroth's relative skills (note relative does not equal actual. He is still superior to the Sephiroth he was in FF7, but relative as in not having all the kickass magic. Kinda confusing yes. But it is a possible inconsistency due to gameplay/movie differences.) compared to FF7 to make the movie fight scene possible.

As a cool thing that I thought and helped everything tie together story wise(for me), I always believed that the Buster Sword was a great symbol of the characters in the game. The original owner, Angeal, was an honorable and noble 1st Class SOLDIER. Not only did the Buster Sword represent Angeal's values, but it also represented himself. When Angeal died, he passed the Buster Sword onto Zack. This to me, symbolizes Angeal's continuation despite his death. All Angeal ever was and could have been, Zack would fulfill them. In the end, Zack did improve to become a superior SOLDIER and became everything Angeal ever was and more both value and skill wise. Then when Zack's doom happened, Cloud inherited the Buster Sword and continued the cycle. As Zack said, Cloud WILL BE proof of Zack's existence and become his legacy. In this way, by passing the Buster Sword down, Cloud would now handle the responsibility of keeping Zack's "spirit" alive and become what he could have been and more. In the end, Cloud IMO fulfilled the "task" Zack passed on to him and became everything he was and more, just as how Zack became everything Angeal was and more.
One thing to note is that if Cloud is inferior to Zack, he wouldn't have fulfilled (in the spritiual sense) Zack's task that was passed on. While this is quite arbitrary, it's something to just think about and cool seeing. In my experience, I've never seen a sword that held such deep meaning.

As for posting. Sorry bud. I never had the splitting skills X_X.

 

[Kei]

Actually Zack is not superior he was washed with mako unlike Cloud at that time, so Soldiers are quite stronger however Cloud was planted with Jenova Cells after that which changed his strength, and those comments about Sephiroth taking Cloud lightly they are kinda stupid, how did you even know he was taken him lightly. you read his mind? O.O

 

[Dimix1]

Zack didn't get to show his full potential.. As he died and h could have shown Cloud up in the long run maybe..Cloud is more powerfull though.. But if zack hadn't died i guess we will never know.

 

[EVA]

HOLY WALL OF TEXT.

TL,DR... But I'd choose Zack, any day. If it weren't for him, Cloud's sorry self wouldn't even be alive. That pretty much sums it up. : /

 

[Takumi]

i think cloud is stronger...
well, that's what i think...