Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

[Final Bullet]

Imo, zack is childish and anoying in crisis core but he is kinda strong but cloud is a personal favorite.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

You must be becoming awfully tired of repeating yourself.

I'll tell ya, man, it's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.

not rly. You win the leg of the fight, but Seph takes the rest of the body. iirc, in KHI after you beat sephiroth, Cloud shows up and fights him. Same as Kingdom Hearts II as well. Though, that's a different debate, I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRp5E3DKgkw

Yes, it's true that Sephiroth is relatively undamaged after the fight, but you forget that Sora was ready for more, too. He was talking smack and acting quite confident in himself. That's not exactly the attitude one expresses when being dominated by a bloodthirsty psychopath. Yes, the fight was unfinished, but neither one seemed to have gotten the upperhand when it was over. Besides, I'd like to bring to your attention that Sephiroth was the one who ended the fight, not Sora.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBOg6yLO8pQ

In KH1, however, Sephiroth was unmistakably beaten by Sora. He stumbles back and teleports away, whereas Sora is still in his fighting stance. It's true that, somewhere in the continuity of Kingdom Hearts: Final Mix, Sephiroth fights Cloud, but I believe it's after he gets beaten down by Sora. I mean, during the cutscene, Sora doesn't seem to be in the arena or even Olympus anymore, and I think he would've given Cloud some support. I don't know the specifics of what went on, I must admit, but in the cutscene after Sora's battle with Sephiroth, it shows him completely defeated.

But it is getting pretty tiring to see people come in here and just say that Cloud would totally own the shit out of Zack. xD

I wish people would actually look at Crisis Core and read some of the stuff from the ultimania guides before waltzing into this thread, though. There's just so much stuff that Cloud doesn't measure up to in comparison to Zack. I'd think that just knowing that

Spoiler

Zack killed every 1st Class SOLDIER (besides Sephiroth) there was definitely casts a shadow over Cloud's accomplishments

.

Yeah, it does get a bit annoying, I have to say. What really annoys me is that they continually use Cloud's victories against Sephiroth as evidence of his superiority. If he actually won a fair fight against Sephiroth, then I wouldn't mind so much, but the fact is, he didn't, and none of them seem able to grasp that. I wonder if most of them even read any of the posts in this thread...*sigh* But I digress. It's a neverending battle of good versus evil, or, rather, elitist vs. fanpeople. That being said, I have to give credit where credit is due; as I try to remind people, I don't think Zack completely outclasses Cloud, just that he's a small step above him.

And this is completely unrelated, but I have to say, I find it a bit hard to believe that Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and Zack were the only members of 1st Class there were. I was under the impression that those four were a cut above even the other 1st Class SOLDIER. As in, if there were a rank above 1st Class, they would've been in it. I mean, nobody seemed particularly surprised when Cloud introduced himself as a 1st Class. If only four existed, you'd think somebody would call him on it eventually, especially President ShinRa. I know he had a callous disregard for those working under him, but I think he probably would've at least thought to himself "Now, wait just a minute here. This guy isn't Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, or Zack!"

 

[L]

And this is completely unrelated, but I have to say, I find it a bit hard to believe that Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and Zack were the only members of 1st Class there were. I was under the impression that those four were a cut above even the other 1st Class SOLDIER. As in, if there were a rank above 1st Class, they would've been in it. I mean, nobody seemed particularly surprised when Cloud introduced himself as a 1st Class. If only four existed, you'd think somebody would call him on it eventually, especially President ShinRa. I know he had a callous disregard for those working under him, but I think he probably would've at least thought to himself "Now, wait just a minute here. This guy isn't Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, or Zack!"

Come to think of it, that does make a lot of sense, since you actually fight 1st Class SOLDIER operatives on the Mako Cannon in FFVII. I guess I'd just forgotten all about that since the only 1st Class SOLDIER operatives that were shown in Crisis Core were Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal(and Kunsel? maybe, i dunno).

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Yeah, Kunsel and his friend (Luxiere, I believe? I think I spelled it wrong...) Anyway, I definitely think that it's an exclusive group. If I remember correctly, back when Cloud thought that he was an ex-1st Class SOLDIER, he said so himself when talking to Aerith about whether or not he knew Zack. I'm not sure, but I believe he said that he probably knew Zack, considering there weren't many 1st Classes. Obviously, it's small enough a group that all of the members are at least somewhat familiar with one another. I actually think that there were only 14 SOLDIER forces in total...or at least 14 that I'm aware of (the Restrictors from DoC were described as being the 14th force, anyway), so there can't be that many members of SOLDIER at all, and 1st Class is considered exclusive even among SOLDIER. I'd wager that there are somewhere in the ballpark of about 40-60 active 1st Class SOLDIER members at any given time.

 

[saajuk]

zack was more experienced than cloud so zack would be the better fighter and he was also trained by angeal while cloud trained him self im guessing, so thats got to count for something.

 

[Mako]

I think Cloud finally reaches Zacks plateau in AC. Look at it . In CC Zack is showing the feats of a 1st class SOLDIER. All the moves and combat. Defeating Genisis and Angeal - both 1st class soldiers. At the end of CC Cloud is a muddled up mess.and can barely lift the BusterSword. He has little combat knowledge but does have Jenova cells. Which allows him to be an very adaptive combatant.

Now at the End of AC you can see that Cloud is showing the feats of a 1st class soldier jumping /acrobatics / sword fighting etc.

Now the Thing with Sephiroth:

Zack

Zack is a 1st class SOLDIER.
Bless him, he did have a good crack at Sephiroth lol ( and lost ) but the thing is Seph recognised him as a 1st class soldier. Surely he wouldnt take a chance knowing what he could do.So he totally overwhelmed him. no mercy

Cloud
Through-out FF7 the game Cloud always has a party with him. So that cant be taken into account. The end battle with Sephiroth in the lifestream is more metaphorical to Cloud being released of sephiroths will.
In the battle with Sephy in AC - sephiroth is completely taking the piss. hes trying to tap away at his will. It is more of a mind game with cloud as he knows he can completely floor him. As the Oathkeeper said hes trying to torture him.

some quotes from this battle from seph :

Pins cloud up against the wall with his sword :

" Tell me what u cherish most - give me the pleasure of taking it away " - blatently trying to aggrivate him . could of stabbed him anywer and finished the battle.

" oooo-where did you find this strength " - its like joking with him . ooo wer did this come from kinda thing but still knowing he can just shrug it off.

theres more but it shows that sephy isnt even trying to fight.

ALSO who says that is sephiroth? Its just Kadaj being controlled by sephiroths will. Surely all three Remants of sephiroth ( Kadaj Yazoo and Loz) would be the full power of sephiroth?

With Zack its a completely diff story- Soon slices him and gets back to tending to his mother.
This shows that Seph relates to Cloud on a different level and isnt about the fighting . Its about manipulation - * COUGH BLACK MATERIA* once? NO TWICE!!! - i Agree that Sephiroth is undoubtably the most powerful character in the FFVII universe . Its just when it comes to fighting Cloud hes careless due to his hidden agenda.

 

[BusterSword]

Thinking about it over and over i think its a bit more obvious that Zack is more powerful then Cloud. That is if you consider the fact that Zack always fights by himself and never has a party at his back to help and heal him. He has to do all his healing and fighting at the same time so in fact he is stronger than Cloud. Plus the fact that Sephiroth never held back when fighting Zack. He gave it his all and defeated Zack. Cloud got in a cheap shot and with pure adrenaline threw him into the life stream. In the end he went up against a huge army that Shin Ra threw at him. He barely managed to defeat them. If not for those last three that killed him well I think its safe to say that he would of gone on to being the main character in the FF series instead of Cloud and Cloud would of just been his side kick or something. If Zack would of went on and continued to train and level I am sure that one day he would of surpassed Sephiroth in power.

 

[FFVFan]

Well... Zack defeated an evil Avatar gifted by the Goddesses while Cloud defeated the rules of a planet that fest on the Lifsteam... Can't choose.

 

[eisprinz]

Well, on the one hand, Zack got into SOLDIER while Cloud didn't. On the other hand, Zack dies while Cloud lives (granted, this is because he was considered to be so weak as to not be worth the bullet). Also, Zack is the original and Cloud the copy, so to speak. Most evidence points to Zack being stronger.

But the storyline compels me to say that while Zack may have been innately stronger, Cloud was the one able to break his own limits and in that sense could possibly surpass Zack.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

The storyline only subtly hints at any sort of progression in power on Cloud's part. The primary focus of his development was his growth as a character rather than as a fighter, though it's only reasonable to assume that he would've improved after perhaps months of fighting against monsters and robots, but then, so would Zack. It's a known fact that people get better at things if they do them a lot, and under extreme circumstances, people have been known to get a lot better in short amounts of time. However, Cloud's battles were no more life-threatening than Zack's. If anything, Zack probably suffered under more extreme circumstances, considering he was fighting on his own with nobody to cast Cure on him if he started to lag behind.

What I can say for Cloud was that, by the time the end of the game came around, he definitely had the strength of a powerful 1st Class SOLDIER. If anything was implied by the storyline, that's pretty much it. When Cloud lost his self-doubt, he became the 1st Class he claimed to be. However, there was really no direct comparison between Cloud and Zack. Besides, Zack was above and beyond 1st Class. Again, if there were something above 1st Class SOLDIER, that'd be the likes of Zack and Sephiroth. Even if Cloud grew to acquire the strength of a 1st Class, he would still be weaker than Zack. If anything, I'd say that Cloud was on par with Genesis, meaning he'd be pretty close to Zack's level but not quite there yet.

 

[Zack~]

good topic. Zack is stronger. Nomura (prolly didnt spell right) published a book on FFVII thats in Japan. My friend translated a paragraph (he a jap) and it said Zack is 2x stronger than AC Cloud.

 

[The Crystal]

ALSO who says that is sephiroth? Its just Kadaj being controlled by sephiroths will. Surely all three Remants of sephiroth ( Kadaj Yazoo and Loz) would be the full power of sephiroth?

No. The Remants have part of Sephiroth's will within them, not his power. AC Sephiroth was at his peak of strength.

good topic. Zack is stronger. Nomura (prolly didnt spell right) published a book on FFVII thats in Japan. My friend translated a paragraph (he a jap) and it said Zack is 2x stronger than AC Cloud.

What book, in what section of it, and in which page?

 

[Zack~]

What book, in what section of it, and in which page?[/quote]

Like I said It's a guide book I have no idea what it's called but it isn't outside of Japan yet.

 

[SilverShot I]

Zack, I would have to say hes more powerful. WAY MORE POWERFUL, cause in crisis core, he can do a total of 99999 damage. Cloud on the other hand can only do 9999, and if thats not enough, you have to think he beat Minerva and Angeal ALL by himself while cloud has Barret, etc.

 

[the real CloudStrife]

ok thats really only the parameters of the games though it really shouldnt have anything to do with cloud and zack ( this is about when cloud surpassed zack if he surpassed him and not about how much damage they can inflict)

moving on

Cloud uses the buster blade (sword ) as a grave stone for zack overlooking midgar ( this shows lots of rust and wear ) which angeal didnt really want to happen to his sword but as he sayes to zack your a little more important then my sword but only a little. this to me implies that as zack died the busterblade which angeal used to protect him started to rust and decay because it didnt do what angeal wished it to do at his last.

now i bet your thinking what does this have to do with anything well it has to do with everything because

cloud gets a new sword with 8-11 parts ( i cant remember how many exactley)
which i beleive was made by the weaponsmith who crafted mesamune ( mesamune sephys sword is actually a mystical japanese sword that could not get stained by blood just a fun fact ) the weaponsmith lives on a pininsula near the gold saucer (in ff7) thats just one of my beleifs but anyways.

ok ive said in another topis that clouds power relyed on his sword and it really depends on how you level him up in the game to see when he became stronger then zack.

i personally think that this topic is mute because it really depends on the person playing the game to when cloud overtakes zack ( if he overtakes zack at all)

about cloud beating sephy, sephy did use his powers to 100% in the game ( programming again) so really cloud and zack are just as strong as each other.

about cloud taking on loz kadaj and yazoo they werent just "wispers" of sephiroth ( wispers are the remains of a person from a god like state whish i beleive some one said they were something liket that) they were actually hojos experiments and sephiroths DNA sons so them forming togeather to become sephy is actually a posibility here. and cloud beating them i think the fight him like sephy does and thus they loose (also cloud is good so he cant loose lol)

anyways i think there even (cloud and zack) and that really the parameters of the games dont show this that well

but i think this should be the end of this topic because it has been told to you all multipul times now that they are EVEN

thank you

CLOUD

 

[Sipher Gainsborough]

It really depends on which installment of the Compilation you are talking about. In Crisis Core it is obvious that Zack is a hell of a lot stronger than Cloud, but this is simply because he has several years of SOLDIER training while Cloud is simply a Shinra Infantryman. Yet in Final Fantasy VII Cloud catches up to or surpasses Zack in strength since he is capable of killing Sephiroth, while Zack wasn't. I think its safe to say that by the time of Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus Cloud was way stronger than Zack at the time he died.


Of course if Zack hadn't died at the end of Crisis Core, then maybe this thread wouldn't even exist, because just like Cloud grew in strength, so would Zack. This is because if he hadn't died then Cloud wouldn't have had any reason to become stronger and fight Sephiroth. To put it simply, Cloud is only stronger than Zack after Zack DIES.

That being said, I think that if you took Cloud and Zack at the time they were both alive and pitted them against each other, Zack would be the obvious winner. Now if you place Zack (at the time and age before his death) and Cloud (after Advent Children) then Cloud would be the winner because he has gained much more strength over time.

Overall I think that, had Zack not died and Cloud still have gained all of the strength he has now, they would be an even match because Zack would've gained strength as well.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

cloud gets a new sword with 8-11 parts ( i cant remember how many exactley)
which i beleive was made by the weaponsmith who crafted mesamune ( mesamune sephys sword is actually a mystical japanese sword that could not get stained by blood just a fun fact ) the weaponsmith lives on a pininsula near the gold saucer (in ff7) thats just one of my beleifs but anyways.

What...? Where did you hear this? We were never in the entirety of the Compilation told who created the Masamune or the First Tsurugi. Yeah, you're correct in saying that there is a Japanese myth pertaining to the creation of the Masamune as a holy blade, but that sword has nothing to do with the blade in FF7 other than its name and appearance, first off. The Masamune has been stained with blood before. We've seen it in concept art. However, I believe the Japanese myth said that the Masamune couldn't draw blood, so obviously, they aren't the same sword. Second, I honestly don't know where you got the idea that the two swords were built by the same person. I guess I think it's a pretty cool idea to think that Cloud and Sephiroth both got their weapons from the same person, but I honestly don't rememeber hearing anything about the sword's creation.

ok ive said in another topis that clouds power relyed on his sword and it really depends on how you level him up in the game to see when he became stronger then zack.

i personally think that this topic is mute because it really depends on the person playing the game to when cloud overtakes zack ( if he overtakes zack at all)

But a character's strength in the storyline doesn't equate to his/her strength in gameplay. You can level Cloud up all you want, but that's not going to affect how well he performs in the storyline at all. Gameplay and storyline should, for the most part, be kept as separate as possible when judging an RPG character's strength, mainly because you, the player, determine how much you want to level them up. However, in the storyline, their strength grows at a fixed rate. We often don't see any growth at all unless the storyline specifically calls for the character to get stronger (i.e. Cecil changing from a Dark Knight to a Paladin or Lloyd Irving [Tales of Symphonia] growing strong enough to

Spoiler

beat Kratos one-on-one

). Hell, in terms of gameplay, you can level Cait Sith up to level 99 while Cloud is still level 20. Does that suddenly mean that Cait Sith is stronger than Cloud?

about cloud beating sephy, sephy did use his powers to 100% in the game ( programming again) so really cloud and zack are just as strong as each other.

Sephiroth probably did use 100% of his power when he fought against the party in the game (unless holding back Holy had a significant effect on Sephiroth, which I doubt it did, honestly). However, that's just it. He was up against the party. That's eight people. If Cloud were on his own, he would've gotten completely overwhelmed in minutes. None of Cloud's fights against Sephiroth can really be used to compare him to Zack because all of his one-on-one battles against him are either unfair or not good examples of Sephiroth's strength. Cloud and Zack may very well be equals, or at least incredibly close, which I think is the most likely case. However, Sephiroth can't be used to prove that.

about cloud taking on loz kadaj and yazoo they werent just "wispers" of sephiroth ( wispers are the remains of a person from a god like state whish i beleive some one said they were something liket that) they were actually hojos experiments and sephiroths DNA sons so them forming togeather to become sephy is actually a posibility here. and cloud beating them i think the fight him like sephy does and thus they loose (also cloud is good so he cant loose lol)

Wait...What? Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz were remnants of Sephiroth's will. I think Advent Children even calls them "the Remnants". Well, either the movie or the Ultimania. When Sephiroth fought the party, his body was destroyed, but his soul remained in-tact. He tried to possess Cloud, but during their duel in the Spirit Realm, Cloud tore his soul apart, as well. However, Sephiroth managed to bring about Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz through sheer force of will. Hojo had absolutely nothing to do with their creation, and they don't all need to be present to form Sephiroth. One of them just has to come into contact with Jenova Cells. Cloud never actually beats all of them, either. Not that I blame him, of course, considering he had Geostigma and it was a three-on-one fight...

anyways i think there even (cloud and zack) and that really the parameters of the games dont show this that well

but i think this should be the end of this topic because it has been told to you all multipul times now that they are EVEN

Cloud and Zack probably are even. That or they're very close. Honestly, Zack is probably a bit stronger than him. Not much, but he just has several impressive feats to his name that show his strength better than Cloud.

This topic is never going to die, though...

It really depends on which installment of the Compilation you are talking about. In Crisis Core it is obvious that Zack is a hell of a lot stronger than Cloud, but this is simply because he has several years of SOLDIER training while Cloud is simply a Shinra Infantryman. Yet in Final Fantasy VII Cloud catches up to or surpasses Zack in strength since he is capable of killing Sephiroth, while Zack wasn't. I think its safe to say that by the time of Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus Cloud was way stronger than Zack at the time he died.

But Cloud can't kill Sephiroth, either. Well, he can, but Sephiroth is so much stronger than Cloud that it isn't even up for debate. As I said many times, none of Cloud's fights against Sephiroth can be used as evidence of his superiority to Zack. It's true that Zack isn't quite as strong as Sephiroth, but neither is Cloud. If Sephiroth took it easy on Zack during his fight against him, then Zack probably would've done just as well as Cloud did, if not even better. There's nothing to suggest that Cloud is superior to Zack at all during the Compilation. Zack actually has more impressive feats to his name as far as what he accomplishes on his own. Cloud did defeat Sephiroth, but only because Sephiroth was holding back a great deal of his strength.

 

[Sipher Gainsborough]

But Cloud can't kill Sephiroth, either. Well, he can, but Sephiroth is so much stronger than Cloud that it isn't even up for debate. As I said many times, none of Cloud's fights against Sephiroth can be used as evidence of his superiority to Zack. It's true that Zack isn't quite as strong as Sephiroth, but neither is Cloud. If Sephiroth took it easy on Zack during his fight against him, then Zack probably would've done just as well as Cloud did, if not even better. There's nothing to suggest that Cloud is superior to Zack at all during the Compilation. Zack actually has more impressive feats to his name as far as what he accomplishes on his own. Cloud did defeat Sephiroth, but only because Sephiroth was holding back a great deal of his strength.

When was Sephiroth holding back his strength? From what I can tell when Cloud defeats Sephiroth its not because Sephiroth takes it easy on him. Its because Cloud manages to find some strength within himself that allows him to defeat him. For example, near the end of AC Sephiroth is obviously about to kill Cloud, but Cloud manages to find strength in the memory of all his friends, and defeats him

Besides why would Sephiroth take it easy on Cloud? Ex: In AC, Sephiroth manages to come back after two years, don't you think he wouldn't want to risk losing to Cloud again?

Also, in AC Cloud takes on Sephiroth all on his own, with no outside help whatsoever.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

When was Sephiroth holding back his strength? From what I can tell when Cloud defeats Sephiroth its not because Sephiroth takes it easy on him. Its because Cloud manages to find some strength within himself that allows him to defeat him. For example, near the end of AC Sephiroth is obviously about to kill Cloud, but Cloud manages to find strength in the memory of all his friends, and defeats him

Well...for starters, it was stated by the creators that Sephiroth was taking it easy on Cloud. That pretty much makes it pointless to even come up with a counter-argument, considering the word of the creators is law. However, even without that word of confirmation, it's pretty obvious that Sephiroth wasn't giving it his all against Cloud simply because of how many abilities he didn't use. Telekinesis, Iakiri, Octaslash, intangibility, teleportation, and the barrier he put around himself in North Crater are all abilities that Sephiroth has used in the past. However, he doesn't use any of them during his fight against Cloud. Well, yeah, as I said, he used telekinesis once, but not on Cloud directly. He simply used it to collapse the upper stories of the ShinRa HQ. If he wanted to, he could've just restrained Cloud or ripped his body apart with telekinesis. Instead, though, he restricted himself to basic swordsmanship and flight so that he could prove to Cloud that, even on his terms, he was superior.

Hell, even while restricting himself to those two abilities, it's obvious that he was in control of the fight all the way through. He was taunting Cloud, passing up on opportunities to kill him, etc. Even then, he did have Cloud on the ropes. When he knocked Cloud down, he could've simply stabbed him through an internal organ and ended the fight there. However, he stabbed him through the shoulder, giving him a chance to retaliate. There's really no reason to believe that Sephiroth wasn't holding back against Cloud, actually. I realize that it's not in his nature to appear as though he's losing control, but really, there's so much he didn't do that he could've done. Hell, Sephiroth could've ended the fight in mere seconds by ripping Cloud apart with telekinesis or even just restraining him and delivering the final blow, turning intangible to avoid his attacks (since he can only attack with a sword or Blade Beam, one of which is entirely physical and the other easy to dodge), teleporting behind him, attacking him from afar with Iakiri, etc.

Besides why would Sephiroth take it easy on Cloud? Ex: In AC, Sephiroth manages to come back after two years, don't you think he wouldn't want to risk losing to Cloud again?

Also, in AC Cloud takes on Sephiroth all on his own, with no outside help whatsoever.

I never said it made sense, just that it happened. Yes, the excuse is rather lame and unbelievable, but that doesn't change the fact that Sephiroth was definitely holding back against Cloud. Realistically, yes, any intelligent person wouldn't have held back, but as irrational as it is for him to do, Sephiroth did restrict himself a great deal. Apparently, his grudge against Cloud affects his better judgment quite negatively. I can't really think up an acceptably believable explanation, but the creators said he was holding back and it's pretty obvious he was. And yes, he did beat Sephiroth without outside help, but the fact that Sephiroth was holding back negates that.

 

[the real CloudStrife]

i think the designers were just lazy and that they would have given sephy more to use if they had more time to do it

but anyways

he doesnt hold back that much ( in the psat ie crisis core they had better graphics to use ect)