Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

[Jimmy]

It's amazing how one can completely manipulate all facts in order to make Cloud seem inferior to Zack.

Story Wise Sephiroth does not use any of those skills against Zack he dominates Zack in about 10 moves, this is thread is getting pointless all of your statements have already been proved wrong. What we see here and as i already explained, is reducing all of Cloud's work in comparison to Zack's personal victories in Crisis Core.

It comes down to the point that you consider Cloud to be nothing alone, anybody who reads all of your posts can see it.

I on the other hand, as well as anybody else who defends that Cloud is indeed superior to Zack, recognize all that Zack as done.

When you completely despise all of Cloud's battles against Sephiroth, even after witnessing that Sephiroth does use his powers against Cloud, after deglecting the battle at the Lifestream, after ignoring the events of Nibelheim with Cloud, the discussion stops being rational.

 

[Dean Winchester]

The problem is that we can't prove which one is stronger without getting the opinions of the game developers. I believe that, at the beginning of FFVII, Cloud was weaker than Zack, and that the first time Cloud defeated Sephiroth was because he was lucky. On Advent Children, Sephiroth was defeated because he was way too arrogant, and also because he wasn't 100% Full Power Sephiroth.

So neither of Cloud or Zack is stronger, or both could be equally powerful, I think we should ask Square Enix since this discussion won't go anywhere.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

It's amazing how one can completely manipulate all facts in order to make Cloud seem inferior to Zack.

I manipulate nothing. I go by what we see in the FFVII Compilation and nothing more. You, however, have manipulated fundamental logic to make Zack seem superior to Cloud.

Story Wise Sephiroth does not use any of those skills against Zack he dominates Zack in about 10 moves, this is thread is getting pointless all of your statements have already been proved wrong. What we see here and as i already explained, is reducing all of Cloud's work in comparison to Zack's personal victories in Crisis Core.

And how do you know that Sephiroth dominates Zack in all of 10 moves? I think it's fairly obvious that there's a battle we didn't see. Furthermore, my points have not been proved wrong. I admit that some of them may very well be incorrect. However, you have yet to provide me with any evidence to prove that to me. All you've done is submit half-baked arguments that defy logical thinking on a fundamental level. Why should I even take into consideration anything you say if you're not even willing to listen to reason? Hell, you said that Sephiroth restraining 8 people is no different than him restraining 1 person. That's just ridiculous.

It comes down to the point that you consider Cloud to be nothing alone, anybody who reads all of your posts can see it.

Except that, if you had actually paid attention to anything I said, you'd realize that I consider Cloud to be an incredibly competent fighter. He's definitely one of the stronger warriors in FFVII and undoubtedly a powerhouse in his own right. In fact, if you look at my first post in the thread, you'd see that I considered Cloud and Zack equals. However, though I don't neccessarily think either one of them is stronger than the other, I still recognize that your points make no sense at all. Half of your arguments are based around your own inability to think with common sense.

I on the other hand, as well as anybody else who defends that Cloud is indeed superior to Zack, recognize all that Zack as done.

That may be true. I can't really argue with you there because it's definitely true that you never denounced Zack's own personal feats.

When you completely despise all of Cloud's battles against Sephiroth, even after witnessing that Sephiroth does use his powers against Cloud, after deglecting the battle at the Lifestream, after ignoring the events of Nibelheim with Cloud, the discussion stops being rational.

Excuse me, but the discussion stopped being rational when you said that Sephiroth manipulating 8 people with telekinesis is no different than Sephiroth manipulating 1 person with telekinesis. And no, you've yet to present me with evidence that suggests that Sephiroth ever uses all of his powers against Cloud. If you have all of these facts that prove me wrong, answer my questions: Why didn't Sephiroth use telekinesis against Cloud? Intangibility? Supernova? Magic? Iakiri? Octoslash? If you watch the battle in Advent Children, you'll see that Sephiroth doesn't use any of these abilities against Cloud. He uses telekinesis once, and he doesn't even use it on Cloud. What happened to the rest of his powers?

The problem is that we can't prove which one is stronger without getting the opinions of the game developers. I believe that, at the beginning of FFVII, Cloud was weaker than Zack, and that the first time Cloud defeated Sephiroth was because he was lucky. On Advent Children, Sephiroth was defeated because he was way too arrogant, and also because he wasn't 100% Full Power Sephiroth.

Actually, the theory that Sephiroth wasn't at 100% in AC has been discredited. The developers have stated that Sephiroth was actually at his strongest in Advent Children because his body was composed entirely of JENOVA Cells and Lifestream. However, while I must agree that we can't prove indefinitely which one is stronger, you have to remember that this is the case with any Vs. Topics. Nobody can prove indefinitely whether one character is stronger than another, but we still feel the need to speculate. That's just what we do. I know it doesn't make sense, but when you think about it, there's no rhyme or reason to the workings of an elitist.

So neither of Cloud or Zack is stronger, or both could be equally powerful, I think we should ask Square Enix since this discussion won't go anywhere.

I don't honestly think that Square-Enix would respond. Hell, knowing Tetsuya Nomura, he probably doesn't know himself. >_>;

 

[Serah]

It's amazing how one can completely manipulate all facts in order to make Cloud seem inferior to Zack.

Story Wise Sephiroth does not use any of those skills against Zack he dominates Zack in about 10 moves, this is thread is getting pointless all of your statements have already been proved wrong. What we see here and as i already explained, is reducing all of Cloud's work in comparison to Zack's personal victories in Crisis Core.

It comes down to the point that you consider Cloud to be nothing alone, anybody who reads all of your posts can see it.

I on the other hand, as well as anybody else who defends that Cloud is indeed superior to Zack, recognize all that Zack as done.

When you completely despise all of Cloud's battles against Sephiroth, even after witnessing that Sephiroth does use his powers against Cloud, after deglecting the battle at the Lifestream, after ignoring the events of Nibelheim with Cloud, the discussion stops being rational.

I'm sorry, but I just have to say this...people aren't necessarily saying that Cloud is inferior to Zack. Although you shouldn't have the right to say that Zack is inferior to Cloud either until you've played Crisis Core. Truthfully unless the person has played the game and not "just heard a whole lot about it, or saw it on YouTube or discussed it with a friend" then they really have no right to judge if Zack or Cloud is the strongest.

 

[Jimmy]

I'm sorry, but I just have to say this...people aren't necessarily saying that Cloud is inferior to Zack. You shouldn't have the right to say that Zack is inferior to Cloud either until you've played Crisis Core. Truthfully unless the person has played the game and not "just heard a whole lot about it, or saw it on YouTube or discussed it with a friend' then they really have no right to judge if Zack or Cloud is the strongest.

I desagree on YouTube they show the entire videos of CC, all that they don't show is battle mechanics, so seeing it is more then enough to judge Zack's power, according to that line of tought we would have to consider Zack the stronger simply because he as much more HP or can deal much more damage then Cloud or any other character in FFVII. YouTube provides us who don't have a PSP with a pretty good perception of all of CC, i did not know who Genesis was before i read this topic and now i know some important facts about him, just for example.

Oathkeeper what you said in your first post is relevant, but what you did afterwards is completely different, you said on your posts that we can't consider any of Clouds battles with Sephiroth reason enough to prove anything, and that's wrong just because the creators say that Sephiroth was toying with Cloud, is not enough for one to descredit that fight, and to consider null that for one second Cloud was good enough to finish a cocky Sephiroth, you use the fact that Sephiroths tired but consider the fact that Cloud had also fought just before fighting Sephiroth not important, you say the most powerful being in FFVII universe is tired after fighting AVALANCHE, but disregard that the fact that Cloud passed through a lot to even reach Sephiroth. All this points deserve to be taken into consideration when evaluating Cloud.

 

[Serah]

I desagree on YouTube they show the entire videos of CC, all that they don't show is battle mechanics, so seeing it is more then enough to judge Zack's power, according to that line of tought we would have to consider Zack the stronger simply because he as much more HP or can deal much more damage then Cloud or any other character in FFVII. YouTube provides us who don't have a PSP with a pretty good perception of all of CC, i did not know who Genesis was before i read this topic and now i know some important facts about him, just for example.

I'm not talking about gameplay or anything that has to do with HP. You really should pay more attention. Hell, I'm speaking with people who haven't even played the game yet and have already deduced that Zack is stronger than Cloud. Now I'm not going to sit here and say Zack's stronger than him. I'm not going to say Cloud's stronger than Zack. IMO, I feel they're equals. That's just my opinion. Both men are extremely strong, which you can thank Zack for making Cloud strong btw. Maybe I'll think differently once I actually beat Crisis Core.

However, what I don't like seeing is people trying to do everything they can to debunk Zack's strength and say he's basically a weakling. It's ludicrous and pointless, especially if you haven't had the chance to actually experience Zack's strength for yourself. Don't be so quick to put him down and say he's weak, because he's not. Neither is Cloud.

 

[red_dragon]

agree totally aerith - i reckon theyre equal

and seriously jimmy give it up - give the game a try and argue your side without ignorance

and crisis core rox

 

[Jimmy]

I'm not talking about gameplay or anything that has to do with HP. You really should pay more attention. Hell, I'm speaking with people who haven't even played the game yet and have already deduced that Zack is stronger than Cloud. Now I'm not going to sit here and say Zack's stronger than him. I'm not going to say Cloud's stronger than Zack. IMO, I feel they're equals. That's just my opinion. Both men are extremely strong, which you can thank Zack for making Cloud strong btw. Maybe I'll think differently once I actually beat Crisis Core.

However, what I don't like seeing is people trying to do everything they can to debunk Zack's strength and say he's basically a weakling. It's ludicrous and pointless, especially if you haven't had the chance to actually experience Zack's strength for yourself. Don't be so quick to put him down and say he's weak, because he's not. Neither is Cloud.

If you read my posts you will see that i never said Zack was a weakling, i never discount what he did and i think it's amazing. But i don't know if that was a critic to me or not.

Red Mage i'm not even gonna comment what you wrote, provocation is not my kind of thing. And no unfortunately i won't give the game a try because i don't have a PSP, sucks i know.

 

[Serah]

I said 'people' not 'Jimmy' so therefore no. I was not directing my post at you, just so you're fully aware of that. I was merely stating my feelings and my opinions on it all.

 

[red_dragon]

off topic
my name is red dragon and wheres the provocation?

ill put some on topic in as well

it is completely clear that sephiroth is toying with cloud in AC - Seperioth clearly stabs Cloud overconfidently in the shoulder and mocks him, when he had a free, undefended, and clear shot at Cloud's heart open to him to finish Cloud off. He is just messing with his mind

other battles cloud is in a group

alone i dont think cloud would fare any better then zack did against sephy

 

[mikefriend152]

if anyone here would read nomuras ultimanias guide to FFVII, it says that sephiroth never tried against cloud, he always toyed with him. Ex: cloud giving his all in advent children, sephiroth not breaking a sweat. All of you people seem to think that sense cloud beat sephiroth in the game, nibelheim, and advent children that he is better. YOUR WRONG! Cloud was only able to do what he did in nibelheim because he took sephiroth by suprise by stabbing him from the back, then sephiroth was suprised again when cloud lifted him off the ground and didnt react. In 7 and advent children, sephiroth just didnt try. The guide also says that Sephiroth did give it his all while facing zack, and in crisis core and last order, we can all see zack holding his own remotely well. So all in all, sephiroth trying his hardest against zack, zack doing good but losing in the end, vs cloud giving his all, against sephiroth basically mocking him and winning... I think its obvious that zack is the winner here, and if that doesnt convince you, look at zacks skills from last order and crisis core compared to clouds ac. Zack being able to dodge bullets with ease, deflect the few that are needed, take on tons of shinra troops without breaking a sweat, compared to cloud only being able to do not even half of that, seen while battling yazoo and loz.

Clearly the winner is zack.

 

[red_dragon]

You know what was stupid though - why didnt Sephiroth let go of Masamune's handle?

I lol'd

and agree with mikefriend

 

[BigJoker]

if anyone here would read nomuras ultimanias guide to FFVII, it says that sephiroth never tried against cloud, he always toyed with him. Ex: cloud giving his all in advent children, sephiroth not breaking a sweat. All of you people seem to think that sense cloud beat sephiroth in the game, nibelheim, and advent children that he is better. YOUR WRONG! Cloud was only able to do what he did in nibelheim because he took sephiroth by suprise by stabbing him from the back, then sephiroth was suprised again when cloud lifted him off the ground and didnt react. In 7 and advent children, sephiroth just didnt try. The guide also says that Sephiroth did give it his all while facing zack, and in crisis core and last order, we can all see zack holding his own remotely well. So all in all, sephiroth trying his hardest against zack, zack doing good but losing in the end, vs cloud giving his all, against sephiroth basically mocking him and winning... I think its obvious that zack is the winner here, and if that doesnt convince you, look at zacks skills from last order and crisis core compared to clouds ac. Zack being able to dodge bullets with ease, deflect the few that are needed, take on tons of shinra troops without breaking a sweat, compared to cloud only being able to do not even half of that, seen while battling yazoo and loz.

Clearly the winner is zack.

yes the guide says that but u are still putting the strength of past sephiroth and AC sephiroth in the same category. AC sephiroth is far superior than he was when he fought Zack. Also in AC I saw Cloud dodge many bullets also. Also Im not finished playing Crisis core but I have seen Cloud cut through buildings. Im still waiting to see if Zack has done something similar. In terms of strength I believe Cloud eventually passed Zack in AC but not saying Zack is a weakling. I think people are discediting Cloud too much in this forum

 

[L]

Also in AC I saw Cloud dodge many bullets also.

Bullets from two guns. As compared to Zack, that's really nothing.

Also Im not finished playing Crisis core but I have seen Cloud cut through buildings. Im still waiting to see if Zack has done something similar. In terms of strength I believe Cloud eventually passed Zack in AC but not saying Zack is a weakling. I think people are discediting Cloud too much in this forum

Because AC is a pile of shit, and no-one wants to acknowledge the pile of shit that it is. Of course Cloud is stronger in AC. The movie was constructed like anime with all it's flying bullshit and awesome battles on spinning bikes and headshots that magically don't kill Cloud. Wtf? Since when did everyone have the ability to fly? Since when could everyone slice a building in two? Give FFVII two more years, and no doubt it's going to become the new Dragon Ball Z.

AC is a pile, and completely irrelevant. It's the only reason no-one says that Cloud has done much other than sucker punch Sephiroth. AC breaks out of the Frame of Final Fantasy VII with all it's flying crap and all these overly impressive feats that would only be found in some kind of shitty children's anime.

So yes, in a bullshit sense, Cloud is definitely stronger than Zack.

 

[BigJoker]

Bullets from two guns. As compared to Zack, that's really nothing.



Because AC is a pile of shit, and no-one wants to acknowledge the pile of shit that it is. Of course Cloud is stronger in AC. The movie was constructed like anime with all it's flying bullshit and awesome battles on spinning bikes and headshots that magically don't kill Cloud. Wtf? Since when did everyone have the ability to fly? Since when could everyone slice a building in two? Give FFVII two more years, and no doubt it's going to become the new Dragon Ball Z.

AC is a pile, and completely irrelevant. It's the only reason no-one says that Cloud has done much other than sucker punch Sephiroth. AC breaks out of the Frame of Final Fantasy VII with all it's flying crap and all these overly impressive feats that would only be found in some kind of shitty children's anime.

So yes, in a bullshit sense, Cloud is definitely stronger than Zack.

I also thought that cutting through buildings was just for the movie until they showed sephiroth doing it in Crisis Core. Lol yea I dont know why everyone was defying grravity in the movie

 

[L]

I also thought that cutting through buildings was just for the movie until they showed sephiroth doing it in Crisis Core. Lol yea I dont know why everyone was defying grravity in the movie

Well... I think Sephiroth can be taken as an exception, since he could actually fly in the original game, but it was just utter bollockery in the movie. But the scene in crisis core went really crap when Angeal was able to jump a billion meters into the air without even having his wing out. The whole Genesis defying gravity thing was pushing it a bit, but it was somewhat acceptable. >_______>

But yeah, all that building cutting crap is a bunch of shit, really. If it was canon, everyone would be filleted on site... >=[

 

[Howl]

~*sigh*~
All of the compilation crap that's flying around right now makes it really hard to conclude things like this.

I hate to say anything that puts Zack in 2nd place, but...
We must consider that

Spoiler

Zack fought Genesis while he was in the process of degrading. Of course, Genesis never told anyone, but we all know that Genesis wasn't at full strength during the course of the game. He also fought Sephiroth before he fell into the lifestream and absorbed it's power.

*cries* Sorry Zack, I love you. ;__;

And...we never know exactly how much the "experiments" affected Cloud's strength. Supposedly, Zack was unaffected by Jenova's cells because his body was already previously altered by ShinRa. Cloud however, did accept Jenova's cells...somehow he managed to survive toxicosis...

Ugh...someone please prove me wrong. I love Zack more than Cloud. X__x

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Don't worry, Booger. Oathkeeper to the rescue.

Spoiler

Zack also fought Genesis in his prime at the very end of the game. In fact, he fought what would obviously be an even stronger Genesis, considering he was in his Avatar Form during the first part of that battle. Avatar Genesis, if I had to hazard a guess, would probably be the equivalent of Bizarro Sephiroth, but then again, that's just pure speculation on my part. Either way, it's definitely safe to say that Avatar Genesis>Genesis in his Prime>Degenerating Genesis. However, even if that weren't the case, and, by some totally warped logic, Avatar Genesis<Genesis in his Prime, Zack still overpowered Genesis in his prime immediately after overpowering Avatar Genesis (Genesis was no longer degenerating after that fight). This basically means that Zack>Genesis, regardless of the form Genesis happens to be in at the time.

Oh, one more thing, just to relieve you of your fears, Booger.

And...we never know exactly how much the "experiments" affected Cloud's strength. Supposedly, Zack was unaffected by Jenova's cells because his body was already previously altered by ShinRa. Cloud however, did accept Jenova's cells...somehow he managed to survive toxicosis...

The "experiments" Cloud went through were nothing more than the regular SOLDIER treatment. You know, the exact same treatment that Zack went through. Really, there was no difference at all. Cloud was given JENOVA Cells and showered with Mako. That's the exact same thing any other member of SOLDIER goes through. What's more, when Zack went through that same procedure, he didn't even get the toxicosis in the first place. That's because he was strong enough to resist JENOVA's will.

Spoiler

Besides, Zack's most impressive feats happen after he gets the second SOLDIER treatment, so it's entirely possible that it enhanced his strength. Pre-Nibelheim Zack had trouble beating a degenerating Genesis, whereas Post-Nibelheim Zack was able to defeat Genesis in his Avatar Form. Post-Nibelheim Zack also defeats the ShinRa Army. I dunno about you all, but I really didn't think that Zack could do something like that.

Because AC is a pile of shit, and no-one wants to acknowledge the pile of shit that it is. Of course Cloud is stronger in AC. The movie was constructed like anime with all it's flying bullshit and awesome battles on spinning bikes and headshots that magically don't kill Cloud. Wtf? Since when did everyone have the ability to fly? Since when could everyone slice a building in two? Give FFVII two more years, and no doubt it's going to become the new Dragon Ball Z.

AC is a pile, and completely irrelevant. It's the only reason no-one says that Cloud has done much other than sucker punch Sephiroth. AC breaks out of the Frame of Final Fantasy VII with all it's flying crap and all these overly impressive feats that would only be found in some kind of shitty children's anime.

So yes, in a bullshit sense, Cloud is definitely stronger than Zack.

Yeah, Advent Children was bullshit, but to simply discount it in a Vs. Topic because you didn't like it is just unreasonable. Did I like the rest of the FFVII Compilation? No. I thought that it tarnished the once-good name of an incredible RPG. However, the fact remains that, according to the creators of Final Fantasy VII, the characters can do everything they did in Advent Children. Besides, Cloud definitely does not fly during Advent Children. He leaps incredible distances and defies several known laws of physics, but he doesn't fly. Otherwise, he wouldn't have needed any help reaching Bahamut. Even so, you seem to be forgetting that all of Zack's impressive feats of strength take place in the FFVII "Expanded Universe," as well. In FFVII, all we see him do is get gunned down by two ShinRa MP's. Back then, I really don't think anyone thought he could've taken on one hundred MP's armed with machine-guns and such.

So I agree that AC was a pile, but it certainly isn't irrelevent within the context of a Vs. Topic. If we make AC irrelevent, then we have to make Crisis Core irrelevent as well, which means that all we have to judge Zack by is a few seconds in which he performs less-than-spectacularly against a couple of lowly MP's. Besides, it's not really that much of a stretch to assume that people like Cloud and Zack can pull off stunts of that sort. Remember, even in the original FFVII script, it's blatantly stated that those who undergo the SOLDIER treatment receive superhuman strength. You can see it in FFVII if you look hard enough/have an open mind about it. Cloud, after all, survived a fall from Midgar's upper plate, which is obviously pretty damn high up. Additionally, the fact that he can effectively use the Buster Sword (which easily weighs more than he does) in heated combat pretty much says that he's beyond human in terms of strength.

Of course, I do think that Advent Children exaggerated what the characters can and can't do a bit, but you can't deny that it happened. It's part of the continuity now, whether we like it or not. Don't get me wrong, I hate the rest of the Compilation. It ruined Sephiroth's character and brought about two types of people: 1) Ignorant FFVII fanboys, and 2) Ignorant FFVII haters, both of whom I simply can't stand. The fact that Nomura has a boner for Gackt and insists upon making all of his characters resemble them doesn't help, either. However, it all happened and must be taken into consideration during Vs. Topics such as these.

However, that doesn't mean that Cloud is stronger than Zack. First of all, Cloud never slashes through entire buildings. He slashes through pieces of debris. There's obviously a huge difference in size, there. This doesn't make any of Zack's feats any less impressive, though. You say Cloud dodged bullets from two guns?

Spoiler

Well, yes, that's certainly very impressive, but Zack went up against bullets from one hundred machine guns, bombs from helicopters, and three swords (the members of SOLDIER) while fighting with a close-range weapon.

Cloud beat Kadaj?

Spoiler

Okay, well Zack beat Avatar Genesis.

Cloud finished off a fatigued Bahamut with help?

Spoiler

Zack beat Bahamut all by his lonesome.

 

[Busta]

I don't really think one can answer this question, and I don't think they would want to find out the answer.

Zack's the kinda guy who will stick up and fight for someone who's being wronged, in danger, or to achieve a goal that he has good intentions set on; I don't think he's the kind of guy who would fight just for the fun of it.

Cloud's supposedly living in Zack's fantasy world; he's filling in the shoes of Zack instead of being himself at times. Cloud looks up to Zack so I don't think I could see them fighting each other either.

I saw it's pretty even and if there was an edge, et's just say that ultimately Cloud beat Sephiroth and Jenova, and Zack never got that far...

 

[L]

Yeah, Advent Children was bullshit, but to simply discount it in a Vs. Topic because you didn't like it is just unreasonable.

Because... when you look at Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children, you can't even tell they're remotely related besides Cloud's spikey head. So for that, I find it hard to acknowledge myself.

Did I like the rest of the FFVII Compilation? No. I thought that it tarnished the once-good name of an incredible RPG. However, the fact remains that, according to the creators of Final Fantasy VII, the characters can do everything they did in Advent Children.

Well, we definitely know that's bollocks, as the game wasn't a pile of animu crap with every character filleting everything in sight.

Besides, Cloud definitely does not fly during Advent Children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZByneD3Ublw

3:20 definitely looks to be sum flyin'. Maybe it's Cloud's new pants that have supah powaz and act as some funky ass parachutes that allow him to glide.

So I agree that AC was a pile, but it certainly isn't irrelevent within the context of a Vs. Topic. If we make AC irrelevent, then we have to make Crisis Core irrelevent as well, which means that all we have to judge Zack by is a few seconds in which he performs less-than-spectacularly against a couple of lowly MP's.

Well, I guess so. That's well said enough.

Besides, it's not really that much of a stretch to assume that people like Cloud and Zack can pull off stunts of that sort. Remember, even in the original FFVII script, it's blatantly stated that those who undergo the SOLDIER treatment receive superhuman strength.

Clearly stated by Aerith in the slums in Crisis Core.

Spoiler

Also, the reason why Zack was a failure as a test subject.

It ruined Sephiroth's character and brought about two types of people: 1) Ignorant FFVII fanboys, and 2) Ignorant FFVII haters, both of whom I simply can't stand. The fact that Nomura has a boner for Gackt and insists upon making all of his characters resemble them doesn't help, either.

lol. xD

But now, I guess I'm just gonna sit on the fence with this one.