Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

[The_Oathkeeper]

Because... when you look at Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children, you can't even tell they're remotely related besides Cloud's spikey head. So for that, I find it hard to acknowledge myself.

Well, y'know, assuming you ignore the fact that the characters in the movie look, act, and talk exactly like they did in the video-game, are referred to by the same names, refer to events that happened in FFVII, visit locations visited in FFVII, fight to remixed versions of songs from the FFVII soundtrack, use Materia, fight against Bahamut (who appeared in FFVII), and pick up the storyline where Final Fantasy VII left off. Yeah. Totally unrelated. Really, though, I'm willing to agree that Nomura took a bit of poetic license here, but it's still obvious that they're part of the same continuity even without knowing the title of the film. The only thing that the audience might've found a bit odd were the superhuman stunts.

Well, we definitely know that's bollocks, as the game wasn't a pile of animu crap with every character filleting everything in sight.

http://thegeekrevolution.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/final-fantasy-vii-cast.jpg

http://alastair.adversaria.co.uk/wp-content/cloud.png

http://www.tao.cx/tos/fullbody.jpg

Now, I dunno about you, but...those pictures look a lot like anime to me. The problem wasn't really the anime style. In fact, I really liked the anime-like art style Nomura used in the original FFVII. What we see in Advent Children are characters who look like obnoxious J-Rock stars. *coughlikeGacktcough* THAT'S what I find ridiculous.

Wait...you were referring to their superhuman abilities. Sorry. Ahem...yeah, I'll get to that later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZByneD3Ublw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZByneD3Ublw

3:20 definitely looks to be sum flyin'. Maybe it's Cloud's new pants that have supah powaz and act as some funky ass parachutes that allow him to glide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZByneD3Ublw
Again, Cloud simply jumps very far. Not once in the FFVII Compilation does he do anything to suggest that he can fly, only that he can leap great distances and land unharmed. Notice how Cloud never changes directions in mid-leap. Once his feet leave the ground, all he can do is fly forward in a straight line in any given direction, which suggests that he can't manipulate his body in an advanced way once he goes into the air. Also take note of the fact that Cloud always loses altitude just before landing. Even in the example you gave me, Cloud floats downward just before touching down on the building. It isn't as though he had a lot of time to build up momentum/kinetic energy/velocity. He fell all of five feet once he emerged from the building. Obviously, he isn't going to hit the ground very hard.

Once more, I ask you why Cloud needed help to reach Bahamut if he had the ability to fly. Clearly, if he didn't have a limit to how far he could travel once he left the ground and could control himself in mid-air, he wouldn't have needed his friends to give him a boost. He simply would've jumped up in pursuit of Bahamut, swerved around his Mega Flare, and continued his assault. If he could fly, he wouldn't have just continued falling and let Sephiroth hit him during their duel. He would've at least attempted to fly out of the way. The only time Cloud can fly is when he's using Omnislash Version 5, which I'm going to say is due to his gathered Spirit Energy.

Clearly stated by Aerith in the slums in Crisis Core.

Spoiler

Also, the reason why Zack was a failure as a test subject.

Yeah, that most certainly is absolutely correct, but it's not really what I was saying. I was simply saying that, in the original FFVII script, SOLDIERS were said to have strength beyond that of a normal human being. While it's definitely a stretch to peg Cid or Tifa as superhuman, I think it's fairly obvious that Cloud was always supposed to be beyond human in terms of strength. Granted, I definitely think that Nomura laid it on a bit too thick with all the jumping around to the point where they jumped more than they clashed swords (which I find more disappointing than anything), but Cloud was pretty much always portrayed as superhuman.

But now, I guess I'm just gonna sit on the fence with this one.

Well, I'm not arguing the quality of the Compilation. Advent Children sucks, no doubt about it, but I'm afraid I can't just pretend it never happened in a Vs. Topic.

 

[L]

Once more, I ask you why Cloud needed help to reach Bahamut if he had the ability to fly.

I think at the very least, Cloud has some kind of ability that lets him glide for a short amount of time. He does not ascend, nor does he descend while moving until landing in that clip.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Well, Advent Children does have a habit of stomping all over established laws of physics. However, I believe that Cloud's slow dissent to the ground as well as the fact that he seems to stay up in the air for a split-second are at least rooted in some sort of realistic law of physics. I believe it's the same as how, when you throw a baseball up into the air, it will appear to hang there for a fraction of a second before falling to the ground. That's Cloud's "glide" ability. He simply loses his gathered kinetic energy, having traveled upward in exactly half of an arc, hung in the air for a second before he started to fall.

Besides, if Cloud were able to fly, don't you think Square would've made it a bit more...I don't know...obvious? It's fairly clear to me that they were trying to tell us "He's jumping really far." If they wanted us to think that he was actually flying, they would've shown him making uses of the advantages flying has over jumping (i.e. changing direction, reaching impossible heights, etc.). They wouldn't have simply shown him leaping great distances and occasionally hanging in the air for a fraction of second. They definitely wouldn't have shown him losing altitude towards the end of his leaps if they wanted to show him flying.

 

[Dreamer]

i think one crucial evidence that displays that although cloud beats sephiroth in AC, sephy didnt excerpt any force whatsoever, is that miraculously sephiroth never even blinks when fighting him..... therefore meaning cloud did not even put enough of a fight to make him blink sweat or any give any effort at all to fight him fully or half of wat he can do..

sry for no detail and or bad grammer.. on my psp..

 

[L]

i think one crucial evidence that displays that although cloud beats sephiroth in AC, sephy didnt excerpt any force whatsoever, is that miraculously sephiroth never even blinks when fighting him..... therefore meaning cloud did not even put enough of a fight to make him blink sweat or any give any effort at all to fight him fully or half of wat he can do..

sry for no detail and or bad grammer.. on my psp..

As stated earlier by mikefriend152, Nomura's Ultimania guides state that Sephiroth did indeed not put any effort towards his fights against Cloud.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Yeah, I mean, I'm usually up for a good debate, but...this particular point isn't even worth arguing anymore. It's been confirmed by several sources and is blatantly obvious within Advent Children itself that Sephiroth is putting forth no effort at all against Cloud. Even without taking into consideration the fact that he only used one of his vast array of supernatural powers AND the fact that- even with only basic swordsmanship- he had several opportunities to kill Cloud, you can just tell from his body language that he was just having fun with the fight. Whereas Cloud was exhausted by the end of the battle and struggling just to stay on his feet, Sephiroth was still having a hell of a time tormenting him. I mean, honestly, he was smiling and hadn't even broken a sweat.

So yeah, it's certainly a valid point, Dreamer, but not one that really has to be brought up at this point in the argument. I believe we're currently on "Credibility of Advent Children and Beyond."

 

[MasterX]

Well, until I play Crisis Core, I'll know for sure, but until then, the protoge would receive my vote. As far as I'm concerned, the one I KNOW who uses Omnislash will end up winning.

Sorry, Zack, but this is an unbiased opinion....sniff.....

 

[joeyfinalfantasygod]

Cloud did surpass zack but it would be a great battle to see all those limit breaks put into play would be crushing

 

[Cardinal Copia]

Man Oath, that was the biggest sign of ownage I have ever seen one person do in a forum debate, or any type of debate for that matter. You definetly didnt come with weak stuff. YOU SIR CAME WITH FACTS!!! Kudos off to you man.

Now onto the question at hand. Me personally I think Zack is stronger than Cloud. As others have already stated Cloud needed help to defeat Sephiroth and never really did this on his own. Now I havent seen the movies, so dont flame me for this. But I have heard of how much crap they are so I'm trying to hold out on watching them. But however I can guarantee that any1 on this forum if they were put in an 8 on 1 confrontation, then sent to a 3 on 1 would easily be killed. If not killed just minutes into an 8 on 1. Excluding if Chuck Norris is on this forum he'd pwn. Hell, he'd bust off a round house kick, and send them flying across the globe atleast 2-3 times. And of course you can't forget the fight with Genesis and Angeal, and the ShinRa soldiers which have already been touched on. So I feel honestly that Zack is the strongest of the 2.

 

[Rydia]

Well Cloud did take out Sephiroth in Nieblhiem after Sephiroth pretty much owned Zack. So I am going to have to go with Cloud.

And no, I am not going by anything that Last Order changed.

 

[Kei]

Cloud defeated Sephiroth Multiple times however Zack did even get close of beating Sephiroth,I believe Sephiroth would kill the both if he wants but still I'm sure that Cloud would be able to defeat Zack.

 

[Morrigan]

If we judge them as in SOLDIER,Zack surpasses him.Come on he was 1st class and Cloud couldn't get in.If not,then Cloud is stronger and doesn't die easily.

 

[Roy Mustang]

I'd have to say, Cloud of course.

Like you never really got to see much of Zak

Spoiler

because after all he died and was in practically in no fure FF Game

.

I havn't played Crisis Core so i can't really judge that much but from all i've seen i'd have to say Cloud.

 

[Shygirlfrumfl]

Well I used to think Zack since he made it in SOLDIER and Cloud didnt.But now Im gonna have to say Cloud is stronger then Zack I mean Cloud defeated Sephiroth millions of times before and Zack only did like a few times.Plus Cloud has better limit breaks then Zack (in my opnion)and Cloud could defeat Zack without a problem.

 

[CrossOfThoughts]

Cloud surpassed Zack before Final Fantasy VII even began.

In the Nieblhiem reactor Sephiroth easily defeated. Soon after, Cloud owned Sephiroth by stabbing and then throwning him into the Mako reactor.

Yes, thats true.

I believe Cloud is a better fighter seeing as he has defeated Sephiroth many, many time and Zack hasn't come close to killing him. He survived Sephiroth stabbing him and had enough power to throw him into the reactor. Zack was defeated easily by Sephiroth and told Cloud to finish him off aswell. =]

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

This thread is still alive after all this time...? Okay, that's it, Oathkeeper is coming out of retirement. *cracks knuckles*

Well, until I play Crisis Core, I'll know for sure, but until then, the protoge would receive my vote. As far as I'm concerned, the one I KNOW who uses Omnislash will end up winning.

Sorry, Zack, but this is an unbiased opinion....sniff.....

Yeah, Omnislash is incredibly powerful, and, if Cloud pulls it off, he'd probably have a good shot at taking Zack out, but you're forgetting that Cloud needs to build up a significant amount of emotional turmoil to use the attack. He can't just use it at the beginning of the battle. His fight with Sephiroth showed that it essentially takes hours for him to charge up the spirit energy needed to perform an Omnislash, and that's under the most extreme circumstances. Cloud was gasping for breath before he used it, and he was up against Sephiroth, who he felt an extreme hatred towards. So, if Cloud could manage to get off an Omnislash, he could very well take this, but I honestly don't see how he could last that long against Zack.

Well Cloud did take out Sephiroth in Nieblhiem after Sephiroth pretty much owned Zack. So I am going to have to go with Cloud.

And no, I am not going by anything that Last Order changed.

Yeah, except you seem to be forgetting that, by the time Sephiroth even knew Cloud was there, Cloud had already cheapshotted him by stabbing him in the back with a sword that's as wide as he his. In other words, Cloud snuck up on Sephiroth at a time where he (Sephy) didn't think he was in any danger at all. If Seph knew Cloud was there from the beginning, he would've just flung the poor MP across the room...probably without even using his Masamune. I'm sorry, but the Nibelheim event can't be used as proof of Cloud's superiority given the circumstances.

Yes, thats true.

I believe Cloud is a better fighter seeing as he has defeated Sephiroth many, many time and Zack hasn't come close to killing him. He survived Sephiroth stabbing him and had enough power to throw him into the reactor. Zack was defeated easily by Sephiroth and told Cloud to finish him off aswell. =]

Let's take a look at this many, many victories Cloud has over Sephiroth. First of all, Cloud only encountered Sephiroth in a combat situation a total of three times, so I wouldn't call that "many, many times". Still, I see where you're coming from. Cloud did survive three encounters with Sephiroth, but none of them count as solid evidence of his superiority to Zack. Let's review:

Cloud vs. Sephiroth- Round 1- Nibelheim Reactor (Fight!): Sephiroth had just been through a fight against Zack, so already, he must be at least a little fatigued. Cloud runs up to Sephiroth from behind (as in, when Sephiroth isn't even looking or paying the slightest bit of attention) and stabs him through the torso with a sword as wide as he is. That's basically the mother of all cheapshots right there. Already, the odds are stacked unfairly in Cloud's favor. That's really all you need to discredit this fight. Sephiroth had been impaled with the fraggin' Buster Sword by the time he even knew he was in any danger. I admit, it's impressive for a lowly Shin-Ra MP to accomplish what Cloud did, but really, it can't be used as evidence.

Cloud (and AVALANCHE) vs. Sephiroth- Round 2- Lifestream (Fight!): Cloud had...Vincent, Yuffie, Tifa, Barret, Cid, Cait Sith, and Red XIII on his side. He didn't actually get to fight Sephiroth in a one-on-one duel until after Crisis AVALANCHE had finished beating the tar out of them through their superior numbers. Besides, the duel took place in the spirit realm. We have no idea if the circumstances were the same as they would've been if they'd been in the physical realm.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth- Round 3- The Ruins of Midgar (Fight!): This one is probably cited the most often as evidence of Cloud's superiority to Zack, but really, it's the most implausible. Sephiroth was barely even using a fraction of his power against Cloud. First off, Sephiroth was limiting himself to basic swordsmanship and flight. We know for a fact that, even in Crisis Core, he had a plethora of other abilities available to him: Laikiri (might be spelling that wrong), teleportation, and Octoslash, just to name a few. And that's not even taking into consideration the abilities he gained from his refreshing dip in the Lifestream: telekinesis, telepathy, and control over JENOVA Cells. Sephiroth didn't use any of his other abilities against Cloud, and even then, he had Cloud beat. I mean, even without taking into account his other abilities, he had a chance to kill Cloud and he didn't take it.

People seem to conveniently forget that, whereas Sephiroth never takes Cloud as a serious threat, he fought Zack with either all or most of his strength. Any abilities he had available to him he used against Zack, whereas he restricts himself to basic swordsmanship whenever he's seen fighting Cloud. I'm not saying that this is solid evidence of Zack's superiority, I'm just saying that you can't use their fights against Sephiroth as proof either way because of the different circumstances. I'm not even saying that I know for sure if Zack is superior. Honestly, I do think that Cloud is going to surpass Zack by the end of the FFVII Compilation, but as of now, there's just more evidence in Zack's favor.

 

[BusterSword]

I just have to say that I only saw the Last Order in Japanese with subtitles and i thought it was an okay anime but Before Crisis Core I never really gave much thought to Zack even though I knew what little information there was about him before there was CC. Back when there was just Final Fantasy 7 to go off of i was of course a huge fan of Cloud's. He was the main character and for the most part I mainly leveled him up along with a few choice characters while I never even touched any of the other ones. Yeah i went through the process of getting all the two other hidden characters but yet I use Vincent or Yuffie in any of the battles except when i had too for Yuffie.
Through out FF7 Cloud for the most part never battles any monsters by himself. He always has his friends backing him up. Yeah he has the cool limit breaks and his omnislash is really cool and does alot of damage but for the most part of the game he thinks he is a soldier first class. That was all just in his head. He was never a soldier first class to begin with. As for going against Sephiroth in a fair fight where both of them are going at it at their full strength im sorry to say but no matter how strong Cloud may be he would not win against him.
As far as AC is concerened even there he was doing his best to keep up with Sephiroth. He was out of breath by the end of the fight. Now if you keep close attention to the dialoge between the two you will notice that Sephiroth is clearly just playing with him and trying to torment him. Just by him asking what Cloud holds precious so that he can have the pleasure of taking it away from him.
As for Zack well like i said i was a huge Cloud fan before the arrival of CC. I did not know too much about him. When i first got the game, I only got it because it was part of the final fantasy 7 series. I already knew that he was going to die by the end of the game but through the process of playing it well I grew attached to the character though playing all of his battles, and watching him grow from a soldier second class to a first class soldier. He grew in power from the beginning of the game all the way to the very end where he dies.
I find it hard to compare these two characters and try to see who is the most powerful. They both are powerful warriors though i would have to say that Zack has more battle experience then cloud does. He was in Soldier so of course went on more missions and fought against powerful foes and did more training. Not to say that Cloud did not learn from all his battle experiences. If Zack did not die perhaps only time would tell which of the two warriors would be more powerful but only if that could be seen in the canon then for the most part it is only speculation and theory.
They were both great warriors in their own right but for me the main point is this. It seemed more like a passion of the torch if you add in the buster sword and being a hero. Starting with CC you have Zack as a second class soldier who is eager to become powerful and become a hero. He is under the mentorship of Angeal a powerful first class soldier who is the first owner of the buster sword. Angeal passes it down to Zack after he defeated him in his monster form. From that day forth Zack carried the sword till he died defending Clouds life. Before he died he passed on the sword to Cloud calling Cloud his living legacy. Thus he passed the tourch onto Cloud who would go on to become the main hero of the series. Zack could of easily became the main hero of the series himself but because he died to protect Cloud and passed on his sword to him it fell to Cloud to become the hero. Also if you notice between the two games Cloud and Zack both met Aeris the very same way by falling through the roof of the church. They may not of fought the same battles but they did some what know some of the same people. Aerith, Sephiroth, Tifa and of course Yuffie.
Being that Zack is dead it would only be a matter of time before Cloud surpassed him and become stronger than him because when your dead you are not going to be growing any stronger than you were when you died. What makes it some what hard to compare is CC occurred before the start of the main game FF7. Maybe the monsters just became more powerful than back in the CC days. You never know. The only way to know which was more powerful was to have a cannon fight between the two. Till then this is all just speculation and opinions.

 

[in-VINCE-able]

Cloud is stronger cuz he killed sephiroth case closed.... no on else can kill sephiroth except Sora LOL!!!!!

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Man, I thought we were past this stage of the argument...Anyway, as I said many times before, you can't use Cloud's victories over Sephiroth to prove his superiority to Zack. None of them were fair fights by any means. The scales were either significantly tipped in Cloud's favor, or Sephiroth just refused to take him seriously. However, when Zack fought against Sephiroth, Sephy used every bit of power- every single ability in his arsenal- against him. Iakiri, Octoslash, teleportation, everything currently at Sephiroth's disposal was used. Furthermore, it was a one-on-one duel with the odds stacked in neither one's favor. The fight was completely fair with both combatants giving it their all, yet Zack still put up a relatively impressive fight, given who he was up against.

Unfortunately, Cloud can't say the same. In his first encounter with Sephiroth, the man had already been through a fight with Zack, which must've fatigued him a little. Cloud then proceeded to run him through with the Buster Sword, which had a blade that was just about as large as Sephiroth was. So, after being impaled through the back, Sephiroth still manages to effortlessly fling Cloud away with only one hand holding his sword. He then proceeds to impale Cloud and lift him with one hand- again, I'd like to remind you that Sephiroth had already been impaled through the spine while his back was turned- when Cloud experiences a rush of frightened adrenaline and hurls the already-weakened Sephiroth into the Lifestream. First off, Cloud has the advantage of getting the mother of all cheapshots in on Sephiroth before he even knows that Cloud exists, then the advantage of surprising Sephiroth before he can simply let go of his sword.

In their next encounter, Cloud is aided by the entirety of Crisis AVALANCE. That's Cloud, Vincent, Tifa, Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Cait Sith, and Red XIII all beating on Sephiroth with all they've got. This is a grand total of eight powerful fighters against one. Obviously not a fair fight. Cloud only got to duel Sephiroth one-on-one after his body had been completely ripped to shreds. Had Cloud been alone throughout the entire battle, Bizarro Sephiroth alone would've destroyed him in a matter of minutes. Let's not even get started on Safer Sephiroth. It should go without saying, really. Sephiroth was the final boss of an RPG. Of course Cloud can't surpass him on his own. He needs the help of seven other people. Yes, I know that he and Vincent were easily the strongest members of Crisis AVALANCHE and probably did the majority of the heavy-hitting themselves, but having eight people flying around you swinging their weapons and throwing fireballs is a lot harder to deal with than having one man swinging his sword and throwing fireballs at you.

Last but not least is their duel in Advent Children. I've covered this many times before, so I'll try to make it brief. Sephiroth withholds every one of his abilities except for basic swordsmanship and flight. He wanted to prove that, even limiting himself to Cloud's level, he was still vastly superior. That means he didn't use telekinesis, teleportation, intangibility, Iakiri, Octaslash, Supernova, etc. All he did was swing his sword. Right off the bat we see that Sephiroth isn't even treating Cloud as a threat. He could simply rip him apart with telekinesis at any point during the battle, turn intangible so that Cloud's sword passes through him then become tangible again and slash him to ribbons, teleport around him and hit him when he least expects it, overwhelm him with Octaslash, Iakiri, or Supernova...The list goes on. The fact is, though, that Cloud could never hope to stand up to Sephiroth in a fair fight. None of his battles can be used as evidence of his superiority to Zack, in other words.

However, I will agree with you on one point. Sora could beat Sephy's ass any day of the week.

 

[L]

Man, I thought we were past this stage of the argument...

You must be becoming awfully tired of repeating yourself.

However, I will agree with you on one point. Sora could beat Sephy's ass any day of the week.

not rly. You win the leg of the fight, but Seph takes the rest of the body. iirc, in KHI after you beat sephiroth, Cloud shows up and fights him. Same as Kingdom Hearts II as well. Though, that's a different debate, I guess.

But it is getting pretty tiring to see people come in here and just say that Cloud would totally own the shit out of Zack. xD

I wish people would actually look at Crisis Core and read some of the stuff from the ultimania guides before waltzing into this thread, though. There's just so much stuff that Cloud doesn't measure up to in comparison to Zack. I'd think that just knowing that

Spoiler

Zack killed every 1st Class SOLDIER (besides Sephiroth) there was definitely casts a shadow over Cloud's accomplishments

.

*still thinks Zack is superior*